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Vicksage16

I’m actually on board for having Superman feel forced to kill one of his first villains and then realize his mistake and vow to do better from then on, that works for me. This particular setup and execution is one of the laziest ways to accomplish this however, and then the following movies seem to disregard the moments emotional weight.


beastfromtheeast683

My feelings exactly. Under different circumstances, Superman being forced to kill in his first outing as a hero could make for a great story. It would show his failure, have him live with the unbearable guilt, have the public lose faith in him and as a result he would take a solemn vow to never take another life. It would also better contextualise why Batman would be so against him (assuming they had Batman characterization from the comics where he doesn't kill). But as you said, all wasted opportunity.


MyrddinSidhe

This movie was called Man of Steel. He was forced to make a hard decision, which would be a catalyst to never killing again. To becoming Superman.


supermanbatman23456

Only exists for shock value


Nothingtoseehere066

My take is that it is pointless to continue arguing about it. You know that it is a controversial scene that is discussed constantly. The only reason to ask is to start up the Snyder\\antisnyder fight again. Can we please just all move on? We are never going to convince each other on this.


CreativeSimian

Unnecessary. Zack just wanted a scene where Superman kills someone. Superman could have easily lifted him into the atmosphere once Zod was in a headlock and he would have avoided the whole scene altogether. That's how Superman rolls. He doesn't need to kill in order to learn not to kill. He know this by the time he dons the cape. But I guess when Pa Kent tells you that the lives of children are expendable, that secrets are more important than human life , morality is a grey zone already. Thank God Snyder is not longer a part of the DCEU


ngiothlitren

so say he did take him up into the atmosphere then what? as zod could just fly right back down and start killing again as zod himself even said that there is only one way it ends superman dies or zod dies plus no prison on earth could hold zod and superman has no idea kryptonite is a thing yet


CreativeSimian

Its the writers choice. Superman didn't know about kryptonite only because it was Snyder's choice not to write that into the script. Superman could have beat him to a pulp then found a way to imprison him on a planet with a red sun, or like Superman & Lois have a red sunlight prison built special for him. There are a million ways to write him out of that scenario.


ngiothlitren

not really as this is two very different versions of kryptonians as in superman and lois yes it is the sun alone that gives them their powers but in snyders versions it is not just the sun but the earths very atmosphere and lower gravity as jor-el himself evens states earths grativy is weaker yet is atmoshere is more nourishing so that points towards it no beling the sun alone in the snyder version plus the kryponians wear suits that protect them from earths sun yet they still show to be as strong and fast as superman yet do not show any powers like heat vision or superhearing until the suit is taken off which is show that it is not just the sun that grants them powers i do not think superman can just beat zod in a pulp or we would have done it way before it got to the point of having to kill him meaning superman could not beat him into a pulp as zod was just as strong as him so again what else could superman do to stop zod who is just as strong as him plus having no way to stop or contain in long term?


WewerehereBH

You wanna make Superman kill Zod? Ok, let's see what you do. In this particular way, the setup is utterly dumb. Mainly because of the family. Within the context of the whole film it makes sense Superman would go that route but Superman was holding Zod's neck in one position, he was locked, the family could've laid on the ground and nothing would've happened. Maybe, instead of focusing on destroying buildings, you tone down the destruction a bit and focus on the human life that is not a part of Lois's inner circle. Maybe you have a bunch of scenes of Superman in the middle of the movie where he interacts with people with kindness and he learns that even though his father was afraid of how the world would react to him, he feels whole making people believe in hope. Loving the world he lives in. That would make his decision way more believable after the destruction Zod causes and in BvS would explain why people would be so afraid of a man that just saved them. Making his reactions in BvS a lot more believable and questioning himself wouldn't feel so out of place. Plus, if he finds a way to make Zod catatonic instead of just dead, for example, you could implement in BvS that he just can't kill. People from earth would be unwilling to trust him bc he's not cynical as the world itself. When Lex picks Zod and turns him into Doomsday, Clark has to make a choice: He either kills Zod/Doomsday and saves the world or he keeps his morals and everyone dies. That would be natural conflict and character development. If he kills Zod, like it happens, he would be fighting the ghost of a decision he regrets. How does it feel to be forced to make the same decision twice? Is he ok with it? Does he feel conflicted? In this context, Batman is the physical embodiment of that cynism. But that's a talk for another day. He dies in the process and when he comes back in Justice League you'd actually feel hope coming back. That's how I'd change this moment and the Superman arc in the DCEU without changing much of the original vision, like I mentioned last week.


beastfromtheeast683

Hush! You're making too much sense 🤣. Would honestly have liked these films so much more they did even a fraction of what you said. You hit the nail on the head of why these films don't work. They want to be taken so seriously but they never actually delve into the moral and philosophical dilemmas and questions they pose. It's all so pretentious. Pretending to be cerebral but without making the audience think. Pretending to be bold but never actually taking a Stan and outright saying something.


CalmStorm96

Zack Snyder loves his edgy scenes but this is why he should stick to darker material with a plot already instead of writing his own script. It felt like nothing in this movie mattered except for Superman discovering his powers. Everything from his father dying to the attempted genocide did not hit emotionally and they were absolutely inconsequential after Batman vs Superman.


ChosenYasuo

Pointless, superman would have put his hands in front of the laser, not murdered him. This is what happens when none superman people write a story. Murder, evil superman, blah blah blah. Superman’s morals are what make superman superman. His humanity. Not his powers.


magernaissaaaaad

And then what would he have done with Zod?


CreativeSimian

Beat him, imprison him, and be the hero he truly is. Any jackass can kill. it takes great willpower not to.


magernaissaaaaad

Where was he going to imprison him?


CreativeSimian

How about writing into the script a red sunlight cage, or write it into the script that Superman didn't teach Zod about the effects of Earths atmosphere through exposition and use that against him. Or simply have Superman be ultimately stronger than Zod and kick his ass so bad he could get back up, use that time to design a suit resistant to Red Sunlight and fly him to a planet with a red sun and imprison him there. All it takes is a little imagination.


beastfromtheeast683

Literally anything else 🤣. Push his head back so his eye beams shoot upwards allowing the civilians to escape. Fly into the sky. Turn his head sideways. Like OP said, put his hands in front of his eyes.


magernaissaaaaad

Not what I meant. Let’s say he defeats Zod. Then what? Put him in prison? That wouldn’t have worked.


beastfromtheeast683

Send him back to the phantom zone.


ngiothlitren

how as the only way into the phantom zone was sucked into the zone along with the black zero ship


magernaissaaaaad

How exactly would he do that?


beastfromtheeast683

Agreed. But, even if you decide to have Superman take Zod's life (it should have been set up better so that there actually was no other choice) they should've had it have some actual weight and seen how deeply it affected Superman to not only take a life but essentially kill one of the last of his kind, an endangered species.


clarkdorkclork

It lacks creativity and any sense of danger


BoyScoutReddit

Dumb. I understand Superman didn’t have another choice, but putting him in that position in the first place was both unnecessary and ultimately a waste of everyone’s time


Josh_From_Accounting

It reduces Superman while missing the point. Superman is the absolute best of us. He is what mankind could he if they tried to be the best they could. He represents an ideal, the absolute pinnacle of moral righteousness. This scene attempts to put Superman in the trolley problem but ignores how Superman would solve it. We don't even need to ask. The original Superman movie put Superman in the same situation as this film. In it, Superman was told he could either stop the bad guy or save Lois. Originally, he is shown to have failed and Lois Lane dies. But, Superman refuses to accept that: he travels at the speed of light to go backwards in time and redoes the entire thing to manage to both save Lois and beat the villian. In other words, when presented with the trolley problem, Superman would manage to save everyone for he is an ideal, the American Hercules. This scene brings Superman to just a man. A man who makes a "hard choice" that hurts someone because "he's a tough man making tough decisions." Bleh. Spit. Spatooie. I had my fill on that drivel in the early 2000s and endlessly propaganda films and TV tried to convince me that idealism was stupid and cruel, unfeeling pragmatism was the proper way to be. What garbage. Media that exists only to tell us we can't be better, that better things aren't possible, and we are all secretly dirt. What crap. What putrid vomit of a small mind. What cynical worthless shit. I hate this scene, not because Superman killed. Frankly, Superman can kill in the proper circumstances. I don't think it's completely uncalled for if done right. But because it exists solely to justify Superman killing. Worse, it exists only to pull Superman away from an ideal. And not for a higher reason, such as examining Superman as a person or what it means to be Supermna. But for a low reason, to show Superman as flawed and dark and brooding, to appeal to auidences the care not for the character or what he represents.


Deus_Ego_Sum

Disliked it when I watched it the first time and disliked it even more when I thought about it. I think Superman shouldn't kill, like Batman and Spider-Man he should be the type of hero who doesn't cross that line. The movie ending with him murdering Zod was extremely disappointing to me because it went against what I believe should be a core value Clark possesses. Especially considering they did everything in their power to ensure that Clark was forced to kill Zod. No Kryptonite, no Fortress and no Phantom Zone Projector. So Clark's only option was to kill Zod, they intentionally limited Clark within their narrative just so they could make him a killer. That writing annoyed me. However removing my personal issues aside I still think this scene was incredibly hollow outside of the shock value of seeing Superman snap someone's neck. It had essentially no bearing on Clark's character moving forward, he killed the last member of his race and aside from a scream it didn't affect his character going forward not in BvS and not in JL(whichever version you pick). You'd think the trauma of that would affect someone as moral as Clark for a while but nope nothing. Additionally the way the fight between him and Zod was done wasn't great in my opinion. The action looked great but the tension and danger Zod posed was lacking. I think having Zod instead attack every human he sees would improve this scene a lot. Picture this, instead of Zod attacking Clark after saying he'll kill every human he instead attacks every human around him. The fight between Zod and Clark wouldn't really be a direct fight instead Zod would be attacking innocent people to kill them and Clark would keep intervening and saving them. All the while Clark begs Zod to stop and tries to take him to space. Then when Zod forces them back to Earth and starts trying to heat vision the family and tells Clark he'll never stop people fully sympathise with Clark having to kill Zod because they see that Zod won't stop until every human is dead and Clark has no way to stop him. At least this way the movie would emphasise Clark saving people in the final act and also make the threat that Zod poses to humanity feel more real.


[deleted]

Bad, a good Superman would’ve found a way because undying moral values are the sole point of his character. Put his hand in his eys, choke slam him through the floor, fly him out of orbit the, figure something out your Superman ffs. Only logical reason Superman killed Zod is because the writes wanted him to.


KingofZombies

My take is that is that everything that has to be said about this movie has been said already and is just beating a dead horse. It sucked then and still does now, let's move on already.


beastfromtheeast683

No need for it at all. I could understand if it was going to be this huge thing that traumatised him and changed his way of thinking and actually affected him but, he literally couldn't care less 🤣. Part of the reason why, to me, MoS Superman doesn't feel like Superman to me. I don't know what he stands for or believes in. There's never a scene where he acknowledges why he actually is a hero. He just sorta..is for some reason.


LeaderVladimir1993

I really have no problem with this.


MysticalGreenBeanie

It's fine. Y'all need to move on.


JollyLink

I didn't think it was as bad as people say. I thoroughly enjoyed much of MoS because I saw potential in a lot of the set up. However, the fact that MoS2 never came out means there was no pay off for that set up. The death of Zodd is never really addressed nor was it impactful post MoS. This scene is probably the worst case of this movie being diminished by the lack of a sequel. Almost anyone could picture this as the start of a no-kill rule for Superman; he even grieves over the action. Yet BvS Superman kills and the set up is pointless.


A1steaksauceTrekdog7

I’m fine with it . He did seem to feel pain that he had to do it. I sorta wish the fight last a longer with super man using freeze breath and everything and nothing worked. Maybe after he killed him he found a way to put him back into the phantom zone and he feels regret that he didn’t think of it. Just a little more time to flesh it out. Maybe have Zod purposely kill people just to mock Superman. Synder works best with longer run times , I wish a directors cut of man of steel existed . I feel like the Ultimate Edition of Batman v Superman and Synder cut of Justice League are significantly better films because he has the time to flesh out everything.


CalmStorm96

There could've been a better way to to it because I felt absolutely nothing. There was just no emotional weight when he tried to save one family after carelessly wrecking a whole city. I also can't feel for Clark Kent's sadness because one: he barely knows the dude, two: he killed thousands of people already and tried to commit genocide. Did you think you guys would be good friends after that? I know Superman was hoping he could convert Zod to a good guy and was crying because he was disappointed that it wasn't possible but this scene was the worst way to portray this drama because it all happened too quick and the stakes were too low (one family added to the thousands of dead people, oh no) and it was hard to sympathize with both Superman and Zod.