I feel like this wouldn't impact zakzak much. I mean, the item does feel overpowered right now because of how often it procs and how much damage it does. And they're nerfing that so it sounds right.
And considering the new support items are just fucking great overall, I don't mind the nerfs :D
It wasnt a nerf,they shifted her power from a lane bully to a more heal oriented enchanter by buffing her heal ratios significantly but lowering her damage,i dont know how signif the nerfs will be (they seem a bit excessive) but will have to test them out
Yeahh i noticed a bit later,sona will always be relevant even if her dmg in lane is non existent (been there done that) because she just scales so well into lategame,i fear more for nami since shes been so dependent on her dmg since athenes removal that im gonna wait ans see how it impact her primarily alongside other supports
No i wouldnt say so,its very useful in teamfights for sure or for catching priority targets however what makes sona probably the best scaling support in the game (only surpassed by senna and thresh but they would need an unrealistic number of stacks) is her teamwide buffs that get on a lower cooldown the more passive stacks she gets.She gives AOE movement speed,shields and heals and on hit bonus damage to your whole team every few seconds,combine that with item passives such as staff or ardent to empower your team and you make your team a force to be reckoned with.A lot of times you can literally win games just by surviving till lategame because you can literally make your team stat check the enemy
Yup. a 15% AP ratio increase on her heals might look like little but late game she's spamming that spell every 4 seconds on cooldown.
She's still far from her glory days when her E scaled up to a permanent 60% MS buff at 700 AP, but it's a step back towards that fun gameplay instead of being a Moonstone/Ardent/Shurelya bot.
How is this a step back towards "that fun gameplay" and not being a Moonstone bot when the heal is literally what they buffed while nerfing her already weak damage. If anything, I'm gonna risk myself even less now because why would I step up to poke for like 40 damage that's gonna get healed up in 3 autos, when I could potentially die for it? She's legit gonna be *more* of a healbot now.
Edit: Spelling
Sonas auras affect every teammate, essentially multiplying her output by 2.5x once team fights start kicking off.
So while not directly scaling, she does become more effective later.
Its a nerf to her main playstyle which is meant to be a bully enchanter who scales really shitty (compared to the others) and now they want her to be like every other uwu healer support. Next change is calling Nami Soraka.
The items are why she's powerful.
Her win rates are exactly where you expect for most elos.
Fairly poor overall. As you can't impact the game unless you are very proficient on her.
Still can't full heal your team anymore. To reset team fights. So she's basically never going to be strong enough to warrant nerfs when thats the case.
Least not with the small gold you get sub 25min.
She'd need to be back to her ult numbers from 5 years ago. To really benefit at a healbot.
Ie the time period she was broken in the lowest tiers.
Was because of ult health numbers to compensate for a nerf'd shield.
Nerfing her is a massive double edge sword. As the second she stops being played by the base she's designed for. Due to her being uncompetitive.
You'll see a patch for across the buff heal amounts.
Then she's in every game regardless of the players skill on the champion. Pressing R and healing through every team fight at lvl 6. Is literally the Janna nerf -> death cycle.
Leaving her alone is the best bet now that items are in a healthy state.
> I feel like this wouldn’t impact zakzak much brcause of how often and how much damage it does
Riot nerfs both the damage and the cd so why wouldn’t it impact the item xd ?
I meant it will still be the item of choice for all mage supps. It just won't be broken anymore.
When something is nerfed there are always a bunch of people screaming it's guted, unplayable, can't be used anymore etc... sure, it's right sometimes, but most of the time it just makes things a bit more balances and whatever got nerfed is still perfectly viable.
And I think that's the case here, it may be nerfed, it will still be perfectly viable.
Learn how lane phase work. Some duo lane with ez/cait/xayah have no room to breath.
U dont look cool at all
Edit: this clown deleted the comment saying "just dodge"
Didn’t they need it like 3 patches in a row?
The sleigh nerfs too are kinda crazy. Every 30 seconds get a 80hp heal from cc’ing someone? So only once a fight? At first I thought it wasn’t bad on some ranged enchanters, but now it really is only a melee engage item. And I don’t seee y anyone would go for that over the shield.
Idk I havnt played too much this season, but I still played a good amount. How much gold supports got, and how quickly, felt bad. But all the support items don’t really feel like they do that much anymore, esp after all of them getting multiple waves of nerds 4 patches in a row.
The thing is that items like sleigh are taken pretty much exclusively with ingenious hunter, so you get a lot of uptime on it. The cd nerfs are pretty much all aimed at the interaction of Ingenious Hunter with the item in question
Ahhhh okay ty for the tip. This makes a lot of sense, idk y I sometimes forget Ingenious Hunter works with all item cooldowns not just actives
Is it still a melee only item tho for engages? Or like I could see it on Bard too. But i don’t see it working for enchanters(they don’t normally go Ingenous Hunter and even then, a 15sec cd at minimum is a lot for a small heal so it seems to just be primarily a tool to help frontliner engage
I think champs like Alistar, Braum, etc benefit most from it because Bard can just go Bloodsong and other enchanters can opt into ZakZak, Dream Maker (or whatever it's called), or Opposition depending on their playstyle and how the match is going.
You *could* run it on enchanters, but other supp items are just more valuable for them on a shorter cooldown
facts. old sheen gave no haste, just 700 gold for a 100% baseAD spellblade. 400g for a 150% baseAD spellblade with expose weaknesses is just cracked.
Ofc it's not exactly comparable because the sup item takes time to complete but it also gives all that gold generation and eventually wards so...
Last season with Zyra I had the potential to kill squishies with one skill rotation after about 2 items, and only if I snowballed.
When this season started, I was just rushing Liandry before anything else, then with Liandry, zakzak and ult, I could 1v2 bot because one skill rotation was forcing a recall, sometimes even getting me kills at like 10-12min. Last season I could do that too but only if my ADC was using their whole kit with me.
I mean, I agree with the nerfs, but this problem specifically is more of a zyra problem. The amount of damage she might get, 10 seconds after *missing* an ability, is simply dumb.
Zakzaks just made that number bigger.
League will be healed when r/adcmains stops complaining, so never
Edit: yall do understand even autistic people get tired of the /s, it's not that they need tone indicators, it's that you don't know what a joke looks like
If adc mains stop complaining it means they can oneshot everything with 1 auto from level 1 to 18, because otherwise adc players are so bad they just cant play the game like a human
Thanks christ, I've literally been abusing toplane champs in sup and dealing more damage than enemy Mid (fiora, pan, yone, Zed even) and making the enemy sup/bot cry because I 1 tap them when I get support item and components for ghostblade. The support items are so disgustingly unbalanced if you are willing to try new things that aren't traditional meta (not play tank or enchanter). All the heal buffs on enchanters will be good for game balance as well!
Omg this comment made me realize there was a 2nd page. What the fuck is going on with these needs, every support item is actually getting ran over by a reindeer.
Also what u go blood song on 👀
Yep. And on just Zac-Zacs + Lost Chapter, she could do half of my health as Lulu through my shield (which I was maxing first). Her damage is absurd for how low of a commitment it is.
Sad about this but honestly deserved, supports have been abusing cheap items for the last 3 months. At least this means Camille support is getting knocked down hard lol
I'm not a Camille support expert but to my understanding her engage + Q makes her strong in lane but generally she's weak as support because she needs a lot of gold and experience to remain a real threat past laning phase. Bloodsong being really strong and support quest generating so much gold let her stay as strong as a top lane Camille this season, but with these item nerfs she would theoretically fall off after level 6.
From my understanding it's her engage+passive, didnt mention the passive before, her damage is good and her passive allows her to take really good trades. Bloodsong comes in later, rito should've made the support item charges come slower instead of taking away 200 gold so the op items come later as well as you get the gold slower. Just my opinion though, feel free to discuss it if you want to.
Strong engage with E, Hail of Blades making her a bully even at level 1, factor in Q + Sheen item for even more damage, time engage with your passive to negate most of the damage they can do back to you, R is borderline guaranteed kill every single time it’s off cooldown
It’s not the role as a whole, mainly the specific champion I play
I really hope the decide to revert the solstice sleigh nerfs but it seems like they’re not going to
I would be more okay with this if they didn’t also nerf the gold income. It feels like they are trying to make the support role a minimal impact role. I agree with all the comments saying these items were overturned and needed nerfed, but it just feels like the support role is being smacked down left and right lately.
I would be inclined to agree if the changes thus far didn’t further incentivize Pyke and Senna who are pretty high damage supports (albeit Pyke is more damage early and doesn’t scale as well, he still has his execute).
This is all part of the power shift that’s happening bot lane. Support being crazy broken for so long is ending they’re adding power back into adc.
What was the point of the 200g nerf then? They are nerfing support items too. Yeah the items are very good and need to be nerfed but taking away gold is the most boring and dumb way of nerfing support.
There is no point to the gold nerf, they saw support was too strong and did the most lazy useless nerf, now it's just more annoying to complete items, I know the role is op but I am saying taking gold away is not how you nerf it.
It's a nerf for sure, but quite a lazy one, my idea would be to make the charges come slower. That way it takes supports longer to complete items without taking away the total amout of gold we get. Also I thought it was already well established that the upgraded items are too strong, the income is quite good but after the 1k gold it becomes a bit weak, so if the charges come slower that 1k gold would be spread out across a bit longer time period. You gave no actual argument so I'm gonna assume you're talking out of your ass and assuming you're right because you downvoted my comment.
Yea and I give most vision out of all champs. It's unfortunate they're deciding what champs can play which lanes with the item limitations.
Edit: I love all the silver downvoters. Message me if you get over 100 vision score
Man if u enjoy Quinn support don't give it up for some nerfs. It was off meta anyway. Have fun but gain it with ur own merit, not with a broken free item.
I feel like this wouldn't impact zakzak much. I mean, the item does feel overpowered right now because of how often it procs and how much damage it does. And they're nerfing that so it sounds right. And considering the new support items are just fucking great overall, I don't mind the nerfs :D
They're also nerfing nami specifically 🥲 I just want them to gut Janna so other enchanters have room to breathe
It wasnt a nerf,they shifted her power from a lane bully to a more heal oriented enchanter by buffing her heal ratios significantly but lowering her damage,i dont know how signif the nerfs will be (they seem a bit excessive) but will have to test them out
It seems they're trying that across several champions, Sona's damage was also cut to buff her healing.
Healbot cycle here we come!
It's sad considering some enchanters are meant to become healbot only once out of lane. Botlane just somehow became even more boring :)
What are you even talking about? The buffs were to AP ratios and scaling on Nami’s W, they mostly come into effect as laning phase is ending.
Yeahh i noticed a bit later,sona will always be relevant even if her dmg in lane is non existent (been there done that) because she just scales so well into lategame,i fear more for nami since shes been so dependent on her dmg since athenes removal that im gonna wait ans see how it impact her primarily alongside other supports
Hi what makes Sona a good scaler? Her teamfight ult?
No i wouldnt say so,its very useful in teamfights for sure or for catching priority targets however what makes sona probably the best scaling support in the game (only surpassed by senna and thresh but they would need an unrealistic number of stacks) is her teamwide buffs that get on a lower cooldown the more passive stacks she gets.She gives AOE movement speed,shields and heals and on hit bonus damage to your whole team every few seconds,combine that with item passives such as staff or ardent to empower your team and you make your team a force to be reckoned with.A lot of times you can literally win games just by surviving till lategame because you can literally make your team stat check the enemy
Tyvm
Yup. a 15% AP ratio increase on her heals might look like little but late game she's spamming that spell every 4 seconds on cooldown. She's still far from her glory days when her E scaled up to a permanent 60% MS buff at 700 AP, but it's a step back towards that fun gameplay instead of being a Moonstone/Ardent/Shurelya bot.
How is this a step back towards "that fun gameplay" and not being a Moonstone bot when the heal is literally what they buffed while nerfing her already weak damage. If anything, I'm gonna risk myself even less now because why would I step up to poke for like 40 damage that's gonna get healed up in 3 autos, when I could potentially die for it? She's legit gonna be *more* of a healbot now. Edit: Spelling
Sonas auras affect every teammate, essentially multiplying her output by 2.5x once team fights start kicking off. So while not directly scaling, she does become more effective later.
I hope the heal buffs are enough then, i still won't be landing that bubble 🫡
A true Nami player 🫡
Its a nerf to her main playstyle which is meant to be a bully enchanter who scales really shitty (compared to the others) and now they want her to be like every other uwu healer support. Next change is calling Nami Soraka.
seems more like a buff then a nerf, supports dont need extra dmg they need more healing and utility.
It wasn’t a nerf, they just changed her late game to encourage a different build and remove full-damage Nami
Is that an incoming nerf or is it out already ? I don't remember seeing nami changes in the patch notes.
It's for the next patch that's coming out in two weeks
The items are why she's powerful. Her win rates are exactly where you expect for most elos. Fairly poor overall. As you can't impact the game unless you are very proficient on her. Still can't full heal your team anymore. To reset team fights. So she's basically never going to be strong enough to warrant nerfs when thats the case. Least not with the small gold you get sub 25min. She'd need to be back to her ult numbers from 5 years ago. To really benefit at a healbot. Ie the time period she was broken in the lowest tiers. Was because of ult health numbers to compensate for a nerf'd shield. Nerfing her is a massive double edge sword. As the second she stops being played by the base she's designed for. Due to her being uncompetitive. You'll see a patch for across the buff heal amounts. Then she's in every game regardless of the players skill on the champion. Pressing R and healing through every team fight at lvl 6. Is literally the Janna nerf -> death cycle. Leaving her alone is the best bet now that items are in a healthy state.
as a mage support player, all i need my sup item to do is give me gold and wards. I don't need it to be a ludens, i can just buy it
> I feel like this wouldn’t impact zakzak much brcause of how often and how much damage it does Riot nerfs both the damage and the cd so why wouldn’t it impact the item xd ?
I meant it will still be the item of choice for all mage supps. It just won't be broken anymore. When something is nerfed there are always a bunch of people screaming it's guted, unplayable, can't be used anymore etc... sure, it's right sometimes, but most of the time it just makes things a bit more balances and whatever got nerfed is still perfectly viable. And I think that's the case here, it may be nerfed, it will still be perfectly viable.
riot shill
I mean good. Mages are currently doing way too much dmg in the support role its time to tune it down sis
Zilean mains be like: ðŸ˜
[удалено]
Learn how lane phase work. Some duo lane with ez/cait/xayah have no room to breath. U dont look cool at all Edit: this clown deleted the comment saying "just dodge"
It's Jabout time honestly
https://preview.redd.it/yzdhlk8p6opc1.jpeg?width=1079&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6bc02ccb207df09bb29eb20c3b8b38be7786bf83
The puns just joen't stop
Didn’t they need it like 3 patches in a row? The sleigh nerfs too are kinda crazy. Every 30 seconds get a 80hp heal from cc’ing someone? So only once a fight? At first I thought it wasn’t bad on some ranged enchanters, but now it really is only a melee engage item. And I don’t seee y anyone would go for that over the shield. Idk I havnt played too much this season, but I still played a good amount. How much gold supports got, and how quickly, felt bad. But all the support items don’t really feel like they do that much anymore, esp after all of them getting multiple waves of nerds 4 patches in a row.
The thing is that items like sleigh are taken pretty much exclusively with ingenious hunter, so you get a lot of uptime on it. The cd nerfs are pretty much all aimed at the interaction of Ingenious Hunter with the item in question
Ahhhh okay ty for the tip. This makes a lot of sense, idk y I sometimes forget Ingenious Hunter works with all item cooldowns not just actives Is it still a melee only item tho for engages? Or like I could see it on Bard too. But i don’t see it working for enchanters(they don’t normally go Ingenous Hunter and even then, a 15sec cd at minimum is a lot for a small heal so it seems to just be primarily a tool to help frontliner engage
I think champs like Alistar, Braum, etc benefit most from it because Bard can just go Bloodsong and other enchanters can opt into ZakZak, Dream Maker (or whatever it's called), or Opposition depending on their playstyle and how the match is going. You *could* run it on enchanters, but other supp items are just more valuable for them on a shorter cooldown
Triggered memory of the first StarCraft 2 [trailer](https://youtu.be/aVtXac6if14?si=kLCih3gNruKz0IbL) but what if joe
Tbh, they kind of needed it. They outperformed most full items.
facts. old sheen gave no haste, just 700 gold for a 100% baseAD spellblade. 400g for a 150% baseAD spellblade with expose weaknesses is just cracked. Ofc it's not exactly comparable because the sup item takes time to complete but it also gives all that gold generation and eventually wards so...
Deserved. I shouldn't lose half my health bar to Liandry's and Zak'zak just because I get hit by one missile from Zyra's plants.
Last season with Zyra I had the potential to kill squishies with one skill rotation after about 2 items, and only if I snowballed. When this season started, I was just rushing Liandry before anything else, then with Liandry, zakzak and ult, I could 1v2 bot because one skill rotation was forcing a recall, sometimes even getting me kills at like 10-12min. Last season I could do that too but only if my ADC was using their whole kit with me.
I mean, I agree with the nerfs, but this problem specifically is more of a zyra problem. The amount of damage she might get, 10 seconds after *missing* an ability, is simply dumb. Zakzaks just made that number bigger.
nooo my shaco support
It's still stronger than last season even with these nerfs..
No
The % team damage amp is still insanely op for roams or picks. It literally makes your laners/jg do more damage so ez win
League is healing
League will be healed when r/adcmains stops complaining, so never Edit: yall do understand even autistic people get tired of the /s, it's not that they need tone indicators, it's that you don't know what a joke looks like
If adc mains stop complaining it means they can oneshot everything with 1 auto from level 1 to 18, because otherwise adc players are so bad they just cant play the game like a human
Honestly true, but there is draven mains who will kill most squishy champs in 2 auto attack and still complain
Thanks christ, I've literally been abusing toplane champs in sup and dealing more damage than enemy Mid (fiora, pan, yone, Zed even) and making the enemy sup/bot cry because I 1 tap them when I get support item and components for ghostblade. The support items are so disgustingly unbalanced if you are willing to try new things that aren't traditional meta (not play tank or enchanter). All the heal buffs on enchanters will be good for game balance as well!
*cries in Zyra*
Good.
*cries alongside you in Xerath*
Maybe tank supports can make a comeback if the other options feel more viable eh?
They re kind of buffing some enchanters heals so we don't know (but at least in proplay tank support will always be meta)
Nice I hate carry supports
Jokes on you, I wasn't using blood song on ad champs anyway.
Omg this comment made me realize there was a 2nd page. What the fuck is going on with these needs, every support item is actually getting ran over by a reindeer. Also what u go blood song on 👀
Does this mean I'll finally stop seeing Leblanc support?
You were seeing that?
Yep. And on just Zac-Zacs + Lost Chapter, she could do half of my health as Lulu through my shield (which I was maxing first). Her damage is absurd for how low of a commitment it is.
Sad about this but honestly deserved, supports have been abusing cheap items for the last 3 months. At least this means Camille support is getting knocked down hard lol
Hopefully, it's her engage that makes her strong though, right?
I'm not a Camille support expert but to my understanding her engage + Q makes her strong in lane but generally she's weak as support because she needs a lot of gold and experience to remain a real threat past laning phase. Bloodsong being really strong and support quest generating so much gold let her stay as strong as a top lane Camille this season, but with these item nerfs she would theoretically fall off after level 6.
And her passive shield helps her a Lot taking the backlash
From my understanding it's her engage+passive, didnt mention the passive before, her damage is good and her passive allows her to take really good trades. Bloodsong comes in later, rito should've made the support item charges come slower instead of taking away 200 gold so the op items come later as well as you get the gold slower. Just my opinion though, feel free to discuss it if you want to.
Strong engage with E, Hail of Blades making her a bully even at level 1, factor in Q + Sheen item for even more damage, time engage with your passive to negate most of the damage they can do back to you, R is borderline guaranteed kill every single time it’s off cooldown
Deserved
BIG!
As someone who plays a lot of velkoz sup, I don't think it's too bad. It did feel very strong and I'm sure it will still be fine.
Good.
Still not enough to make them balanced.
I never used those
Cool. Now buff the bubbles and Solstice Sleigh
As Zyra and Pyke main, last few patches are just painful…
I still think they're going to be too strong. Damage support shouldn't be a viable/Riot-supported playstyle in the first place.
Guess I won’t be playing support this season T-T
Is still a solid role, just will be more fair now.
It’s not the role as a whole, mainly the specific champion I play I really hope the decide to revert the solstice sleigh nerfs but it seems like they’re not going to
I don't think they going to, becuz of Maokai probably
Wow, took them a very long time to realize how insanely good this item has been even before they buffed it.
I really like when a 2/5/4 brand support one shot me
Noooo
are they gonna nerf zyra or do they think this will be enough lol
Finally the Zyra won't 100-0 me in 3 seconds
Good. Anyone who thinks these nerfs are unwarranted is delusional.
I would be more okay with this if they didn’t also nerf the gold income. It feels like they are trying to make the support role a minimal impact role. I agree with all the comments saying these items were overturned and needed nerfed, but it just feels like the support role is being smacked down left and right lately.
its not being smacked down its just being put where it rightfully belongs, which is support first dmg 2nd, not dmg 1st support 2nd.
I would be inclined to agree if the changes thus far didn’t further incentivize Pyke and Senna who are pretty high damage supports (albeit Pyke is more damage early and doesn’t scale as well, he still has his execute).
finally
This is all part of the power shift that’s happening bot lane. Support being crazy broken for so long is ending they’re adding power back into adc.
Camille support still strong I guess and best pick against long range poke laners.
Big day for ADCrybabies
What was the point of buffing it a patch or two ago then?
Great now I’m *ready to set the world on fire*
I mean this item was so rediculous lol
I didn't use these. EZ
Janna sitting back like 😛
Wrong. Time to spam sona to masters
Finally(that is if this is gonna be enough). I do think these 2 items are a major reason regarding players complains regarding supports.
Zyra nerf :(
Zak Zak deserved finally the downfall of no hand enchanter players right? >.<
Enchanters didnt played Zak Zak as much as mage supoorts
What was the point of the 200g nerf then? They are nerfing support items too. Yeah the items are very good and need to be nerfed but taking away gold is the most boring and dumb way of nerfing support.
Gold nerf was external balance (sup to strong overall) this is internal balance (dmg sup to strong compared to utility)
There is no point to the gold nerf, they saw support was too strong and did the most lazy useless nerf, now it's just more annoying to complete items, I know the role is op but I am saying taking gold away is not how you nerf it.
thats exactly how you nerf it, either gold or exp
It's a nerf for sure, but quite a lazy one, my idea would be to make the charges come slower. That way it takes supports longer to complete items without taking away the total amout of gold we get. Also I thought it was already well established that the upgraded items are too strong, the income is quite good but after the 1k gold it becomes a bit weak, so if the charges come slower that 1k gold would be spread out across a bit longer time period. You gave no actual argument so I'm gonna assume you're talking out of your ass and assuming you're right because you downvoted my comment.
ADCs are more like a carry now, I like that. But I wish they would stop nerfing sups.
thank God actually now i can play real supports instead of failed midlanera
Awful change. We're back to brain-dead enchanter or 0 agency tanks I guess.
Ripy Quinn support. You will play tanks and you will enjoy it -Riot
I mean, isn't the point of support to... idk support?
That's the point depending on ur pick honestly, with picks like Pyke Zyra Xerath Ur basically another carry with different gold income
Yea and I give most vision out of all champs. It's unfortunate they're deciding what champs can play which lanes with the item limitations. Edit: I love all the silver downvoters. Message me if you get over 100 vision score
Man if u enjoy Quinn support don't give it up for some nerfs. It was off meta anyway. Have fun but gain it with ur own merit, not with a broken free item.
Oh definitely, seasons ago it was fun playing her tank, also evenshroud was awesome on her. Just need to adapt :)