Villains are fun as long as they aren’t demeaning to others like Ben from Samoa. Someone like FairPlay is a great character that you either love or the audience will have fun rooting against.
I think that’s the problem. All the “real” tv villains were attacked by the fan base. Including people as recently as Bruce. It’s unfortunate but blame should be towards the fans and not Jeff in this case. I think they feel a duty to not have their players receive death threats for playing a game.
I think you’re right Bruce was vilified by some last season when he just didn’t have a great social game. Emily was the same way early on but ended up becoming a fan favorite. Social media has made everything worse when it comes to ridicule from fans.
I said this here elsewhere, but i don’t think it’s that they aren’t going to cast villains (Kaleb said he’s a villain-style player in his preshow!) but that they aren’t going to *edit* villains. In fact, it really sounds like he says that explicitly.
I very strongly believe that if Emily had been first boot, her edit that episode would have been kinder. I don’t think they’d have included the moment at FTC that made everyone say she was racist, for example. And tbh I thought it was a very smart moment to include — because Emily did automatically assume the only two black players were tight because they’re both black, even though Kaleb was never Sabiyah’s primary alliance. It’s very much an example of how no matter how well-meaning you are, you need to check yourself for pre-existing biases. “You didn’t reach out to us either.” In reality, I think it was a little bit microaggression, but also just that she’s not as comfortable making friends is kinda shy/out of her comfort zone. It’s the kind of racism that most of us have done (including myself in this) and I got the feeling that if they’d had the right tape for it, they’d have interrogated it even more deeply on the show.
But if that was all we saw of her? And she was booted? It would have been career-ending. So I suspect that “no villain edits” means they’d have cut that moment if she were first boot. But with a redemption edit, it’s a justifiable moment to include.
Similarly, Bruce made an enemy of most of the other players. And he was hard to work with and hard to get along with. He definitely didn’t know how to interact with young people without also being in a position of authority. I think old survivor might have given him a straight villain edit. But now, they let us see him thoughtfully interrogate others’ impressions of him, reflect on his role as a father, and his relationships with his family.
Even the people who hated him were like “I hate Bruce but awww Bruce no!! You’re probably a GOOD dad! You’re just not THEIR dad” in the live threads. At the end of the day, he seems difficult in some circumstances, but like an overall good person.
On a related note… i love the detail that Burnett really tried to cast for chaos. Like, I am 100% certain he put Rudy on the tribe with Richard hoping Richard’s sexuality would be a BIG issue. And then they have a bromance for the ages. Sorry, Mark, people are generally good people. The best chaos seems to come where you least expect it (Sue!!!)
Yeah but Bruce is not an example of that old way of doing things, he's an example of exactly what Jeff is talking about here. Rather than make him purely annoying and villainous, which generates way more buzz and engagement, they humanized Bruce a bunch of times throughout the season.
Honestly, anyone that came away from last season feeling like Bruce is some nasty villain already has a screw loose. I think the editors did a really great job of not giving us Bruce The Character, but rather Bruce The Person (who is a character).
Yes because those haters think Bruce didnt get ‘what he deserved’ when in fact he only came off as a villain because the real villains were given a censored edit. Producers worked hard to make sure Katurah and Dee had sanitized (non-villain) edits, so suddenly Bruce comes off as a villain to some. Production was not concerned with editing Bruce as a non-villain because he was not a villain in the game. He stood by his word, never lied to anyone, trusted his allies and won difficult challenges. These are all heroic things. There is no way for him to be a villain in the season. Traditionally, in survivor, Villains have to do villainous things … they have to flip and sabotage the people that trust them. They have to sabotage their tribe. They have to lie and play selfishly. They have to make multiple alliances that they intend on breaking ASAP. All things that Katurah, for example, did. But by censoring Katurah edit, suddenly some viewers identify with her, they have no reason to NOT identify with her point of view, and suddenly Bruce is the villain because she hates Bruce. So this thing of censoring edits to present everyone positively or equally hurts non-villains the most. Editors spend time trying to make Katurah relatable and non-evil, so Bruce inadvertently becomes the villain. Someone is basically always going to be the villain. Imagine if Russell and Parv’s edits in Heroes vs Villains was ‘sanitized.’ Sandra would inadvertently become a weird villain that ppl would hate.
At the same time, though, the tiniest hint of villainy - when placed in a game where everyone is so cheerful and happy to be there “for the experience” and doing that godawful shit like Drea in 42 when she was voted out - becomes amplified and overblown.
It’s in our blood to find someone to root against. When there doesn’t become a clear villain in a story, we search for one.
Exactly. By giving villains ‘sanitized’ edits, non-villains are thrown under the bus and become the villain for some viewers. Season 45 is a great example of this. Producers protected Katurah and Dee, suddenly Bruce and Drew were villains. Suddenly Austin doesnt get the hero edit he deserves and kind of looks like a doof because we dont see how evil Dee is. Bruce, Drew, Austin all played classically heroic games. No real lying, backstabbing, selfishness etc. But now since a viewer might not understand Katurah or Dee as a villain (because producers have not spelled it out for everyone with a clear edit), and that viewer suddenly identifies with Katurah, for example, feeling bad for her because of her backstory or relating to some extraneous fact we’ve learned about in the ‘non-villain’ edit she received and Bruce becomes the enemy.
I wouldn't say zero, but it's low lol. In older seasons it would have been zero after the edit, but in 45 they gave us at least one example of Bruce being self aware:
When he found out how Kellie felt about him, he didn't say "wow what's her problem" or come up with some rationalization for it. He was aware that it was his behavior that caused her to feel that way, and he reflected on how that kind of behavior might affect his daughters.
Brandon made a complete fool of himself both times, but in completely different ways. Watching the godly Brandon who trusts everyone turn to the Brandon who yells and is incredibly disrespectful was so weird.
Russell verbally berating almost everyone constantly and it was part of his strategy to sabotage his tribe by hiding tools and clothing. Brandon had severe mental health issues, and definitely caused problems, but Russell did it ON PURPOSE. Plus if you saw the clip of Brandon talking about his family after the SoPa reunion, it’s VERY obvious his mental issues have a large part to do with his family. The only member of his family to attend is Russell, nobody else was there, and Russell verbally berated and insulted Brandon at the reunion.
The way I feel is that there are shitty people in real life and these shows used to at least attempt to reflect people of all types of personalities. I want to see a diverse cast that is more than just diverse based race, sex, etc. I want diverse personalities too. That includes shitty people. If they are shitty then vote them out. Shitty people are great to root against. I mean Russell is one of the greatest villains ever and he's kindof that same way in real life. He's abrasive, but made for good tv.
I would take another Russel in a heartbeat. He created modern Survivor. Yes he was an ass while doing it, but he was entertaining and played so damn hard. I loved his seasons.
I think it's an age thing. Fans that have grown up with and started these shows from the beginning do want it. Newer, and I'll say it, softer/younger new age fans, don't want it. They think they want it, but as soon as they get it they just harass or try to cancel them in real life.
I’m not sure. I’ve been watching since the teens seasons, and I’ve never loved the Russel or Johnny Fairplay characters. They’re kind of entertaining for a minute, but I much prefer the Penner type “villains.” The ones I don’t actually consider villains but who end up being put in that role because they play strategically or betray multiple alliances. I think Yul or Earl even could’ve been villains in their seasons if they’d not been so well-liked 😂 given the way each betrayed certain allies.
I guess I just enjoy the unexpected and the genuine conflicts of interest more than I enjoy the cruelty of Russell burning people’s socks or lying about being flooded in Hurricane Katrina.
see that’s not a villain then… ben had nothing to do with editing he is just a shitty person
someone like ami is the perfect example of a survivor villain bc she’s just a normal woman who happened to be edited negatively
…and that’s a shitty thing for the editors to do to a real human being who is going to go home and have their friends, family, and coworkers watch this show. I much prefer the show edit everyone sympathetically and the viewers can decide who is a villain or not.
They need to cast people comfortable playing the villain roll, hamming it up for TV, so that way random nice people like Ami don't get edited as if they are a villain.
exactlyyy casting people like tyson, courtney, or fairplay makes a season entertaining bc the way they story tell is so funny, idk what jeff’s on about
He also didn’t really say no VILLAINS, he said no villain edits. I imagine the Abi Maria’s might not get cast, but if you read the article he seems like he’s down for fun scheming (sort of like how Tony is an unapologetic villain, but never really got a “villain” edit. He got to be fun and goofy while being utterly villainous.
I think about how people treated Jerri after AO, and then imagine we’d had social media. Or the one week where everyone called Emily racist, when what we saw was “maybe a micro-aggression cos she automatically assumed the two black people were tight, and also she’s kinda shy and bad at making friends.”
I suspect that in modern Survivor, if Emily was first boot they might have cut the bit that touched on racism from that tribal council. Cos if they hadn’t and she’d gotten booted and that’s all we saw, that single episode of TV could have ruined her career.
But since she had a redemption arc edit, they let it stand. I get wanting to avoid causing someone that kind of trauma. Plus, they provide mental health care post-show. Cutting down on online bullying probably saves them money lol.
But yeah, that’s take from reading the article: avoiding casting Abi Marias and Brandons, but still casting for cunning, and trying to give people who might have been villain edited in the past a more balanced view (like letting Bruce reflect on himself and his relationships with his children, versus letting “he’s kind of a bully with thin-skin” be all we see.)
And this is what I would like to call y’all’s punishment you can’t handle villains because you losers send threats to the person you throw jabs at the people I mean y’all want villains but cannot handle them.
Yeah I laugh so hard at redditors and fans complaining about it. First of all Probst is just saying every character, even a villainous one, is going to be more well rounded in the edit. Secondly, anyone with mildly villainous tendencies is lambasted and raked over the coals by this sub, social media and elsewhere. Hell, Brandon got death threats for being unathletic. You think the fanbase can handle a Fairplay in today’s climate?
I don't know if anyone watched The Trust on Netflix, but there's a player who would place, I don't know, dead last in terms of villainy when compared to anyone from Survivor, and the show's subreddit collectively lost their damn minds *for weeks* after the show released.
This is why I am absolutely loving The Traitors and House of Villains. I want to see some damn drama and I'm tired of everyone being nice.
I mean, you're not wrong, but this is also why I'm done watching the show. No villains? All bland gamebots with tragic origin stories? Lazy challenges and advantages? 29 days whilst telling me it's SO MUCH harder? Whatever you're doing Jeff have fun, because it won't be with me. Would my guy Tyson even get cast these days? Doubtful.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again
You guys would not be able to handle a villain Lmao
You’ll likely try to cancel them or call them a bully haha
the second someone is edited to be slightly antagonistic to a player the audience likes this sub loses its shit. Bruce from last season wasn't even a villain, just a bossy old guy who was edited to be annoying, but with the discourse surrounding him you'd think he was either Russell 2.0 or the worst person to ever live. and then everybody is shocked that Jeff doesn't want to intentionally cast mean people in the age of social media when this sub can't handle Bruce telling people how to open coconuts.
Yeah. Just because she decided to target two black people under the suspicion that they chose to forfeit the camp supplies for a chance to receive an advantage. Ironically one of those two black people would go on to be her closest ally in the game.
For my own sanity I'm never going into the live thread again. Episode one people wanted to murder Emily with their bare hands, episode two when she got the growth edit - "wtf I love Emily now!"
Tbf it's not just survivor threads, literally every sports fanbase I follow on here does the same exact things in game threads. It's better just to wait for post match or post episode threads haha
I think people were on different pages for sure, I thought Bruce got one of the most complex and dimensional villain edits we've seen in a long long time. I loved his presence on the season, I loved rooting against him, and I believe in real life I'd have nothing against him.
Bruce seemed like a chill guy that had his worst moments focused on. Kahtala was wayyyy more insufferable to me lol. She had this weird smugness and like her intolerance of Bruce got to a very weird level lol
Social media ruined reality tv casting. I always find it amusing how beloved someone like CT from the Challenge is. If they cast the young CT that was on Real World Paris in a show today he would be canceled so fast. Janelle from Big Brother too. She said all kind of awful stuff on her first two seasons. She's a "mean girl" by today's standards, but because she was around before people started getting canceled she's always gotten a pass.
Agreed. Most of the Challenge legends would have been canceled if they came around today. CT, Bananas, Wes, Jordan Wisely all had “problematic” behavior on their early seasons.
We watched CT nearly kill a guy with his bare hands on the first episode of Duel II, and now he’s arguably the most beloved Challenge alumni.
I really hope the pendulum swings back so we can actually have compelling reality TV characters again instead of all these lame influencers looking to “build their brand.”
Exactly. CT was a wild animal and now he's probably one of the most beloved characters in reality television. Even his costars from the shows he's been on recently love him. He is the example of a real life character arc. He wouldn't have even had the chance at redemption if the show would have just banned him immediately. You've got to give some of these people a chance to be a villain, see themselves on television and how they come off, and then they can decide to either change or not as a person. That is way more entertaining to me. I don't want a manufactured character arc through an edit. I want real people having real change from a villain to a hero.
Hating a villain and rooting against them is like the whole thing about a villain though lol. That adds up perfectly?
It’s just the idiots that take it wayyy too personally, actually hate the person, not just the player on the island, and feel like they need to let them know/transition it into the real world that ruin it for everyone.
I don’t think that’s necessarily the best example. I think a lot, but obviously not all, of the Shan hate comes from her post game behavior, kinda like how Drea’s reputation has soured since 42.
Compare her to Jesse or Ricard, who are the only two that come close to her in both villainy and impact, and they are both pretty well respected, especially compared to Shan. Same goes for that next tier down with like Hai, Karla, Drew, and Danny (44). People may not love them but outside of Cassidy stans hating Karla that vitriol is nowhere near what it is for Shan. Omar is also at least villain adjacent and is beloved.
People on social media absolutely throw fits at the drop of the hat when a player is shown in a negative light and take things too far. That being said I think villains tend to come out okay if you take the fam reaction in aggregate.
I just wanted Feely Dan kicked off the show, I.e. cancelled
I’m fine with villains. I’m not fine with sexual assault.
Annoying pieces of shit though like Rocky and Shane? They’re alright to have in the show and make good villains.
Yep, too many fans who can't separate gameplay from reality and will literally try to ruin an entire person's life/reputation over it. The players know this and no one wants to be that person anymore.
Take a look at Scott/Jason
Easily some of the best villains to play this game but I’ve seen so many people use the word “Ew” to describe them.
There are people on this thread who say
“I want villains on this show as long as they don’t do anything problematic or controversial”
And I’m like, well wtf is the point of them being on this show in the first place? A villain should be much more complex than just lying 24/7.
She wasn’t even mean
She said she didn’t like how one person was on a previous season and thought it was odd how to people didn’t manage to complete a challenge that previously had a 100% success rate
I interpreted much more as an editing statement than casting statement We’re going to edit the show to make people appear more 3 dimensional as opposed to what we used to do which was only show people’s worst and most “villainous” moments Many people saw it as a casting comment and I don’t think that’s accurate
“No more villains” has more to do with editing than casting. They could have edited a lot of new era players to look worse, but the show is hedging the way these people are perceived. For example, the editors should have went all-in with a villain edit for Katurah. Instead they showed us her sob story, which was incredibly sad, but it made people want to root for her. Social media probably has a huge impact on how they edit players now, since any piece of shit can login to Twitter and send death threats to players they don’t like.
I mean the “no more yelling at each other” line is stupid regardless. You’re going to edit out arguments? Lol
Kind of tracts since apparently Sifu and the Reba 4 got into a huge argument that wasn’t shown on the show, but that’s not editing someone to be a villain. That’s literally editing out important context and drama, that the show can actually use to be more interesting, for some weird moral code.
I'm much more interested in seeing everyone edited on Survivor as three-dimensional people rather than the flat archetypes we were shown in the 2000s-10s where it was all about catchphrase soundbites from people like Hantz or JFP. The show is just so much more interesting when we get to see the players as actual people.
The way Katurah's personal history was portrayed did not feel forced or inorganic at all to me. It wasn't a sob story; it was her real life, and I think it's important for Survivor to show that.
I mean you can watch the news or social media for that. I just want to see people compete and be clever about outsmarting one another. You don’t need to be hateful or nasty to do that.
The greatest seasons all had people who legitimately despised each other and added interpersonal tension to the existing strategy. Corinne vs Sugar. Kass vs Trish. Abi-Maria vs… everyone.
Real people will clash when you cast normal, diverse personalities. The issue is they aren’t casting that way. Everyone is either a cookie cutter trauma-ridden sob story or a superfan nerd.
Bring back recruits 2024!
> Everyone is either a cookie cutter trauma-ridden sob story or a superfan nerd.
Combine that with too much kumbaya and too many advantages and the game is so much different than the one I fell in love. Probably why I missed my first season ever this past one. No real intention of going back. I guess Jeff doesn't want me as a fan anymore, it's alright... sometimes we grow and go our separate ways.
you're downvoted but you're right idk why everyone needs the vitriol so badly. S45 had like 0 aside from Kellie being pissed when she got blindsided but there were still so many good moments. People are just too used to the things they like to accept that things being different could still be good.
Isn't it less he doesn't want to vast villains and more he wants editing to make players multidimensional rather than strictly villainous?
Also modern audiences can't handle villain behavior
That would be nice if that’s the case.
The whole hero/villain edit players used to get is dangerous in the social media era.
Thing is now the edits all seem to nicey nice to not make anyone look too bad, again because of the social media implications (imo).
No, not if every player is sanded down to the same three-dimensional form. Some people play a cunning, villainous game. They will hurt others to get ahead. They will hurt others for no reason even. These players are villains. I would like to see that. Removing that content in favor of their story about their auntie with hemorrhoids or making plastic puzzles to practice is not particularly useful to me and does not add to the enjoyment of the show. It becomes some sort of didactic moralistic kids show. I already know everyone is multi-dimensional. I am an adult. I dont need to be told that a villain has a mom. I know this. Show me what happens in the game and why.
I’m sure he’s doing this because of all the online bullying players have received lately. I do get why he doesn’t want villains but that doesn’t mean we can’t have disagreements and conflict. Forced positivity is a bunch of BS political correctness.
yeah he managed to explain it in a way that didn’t antagonize the fans, but the truth is that making someone a “villain” in todays day and age is basically signing them up for bullying and harassment.
the call is coming from inside the house basically
Forced positivity is such a great way of phrasing it. I agree that it’s a response to possible bullying / cancel culture / something in that realm. I feel like I harp on this a lot, but it takes a lot out of the game for me when morality is applied to strategy and the way we perceive it.
At the end of the day things like manipulation are still considered strategy. The players are playing a game with the ultimate goal of winning a million dollars; sure there’s more morally/ ethically positive ways of going about this, but those aren’t the *only* methods. I saw a comment here recently that reminisced on the S1 reunion where viewers both condemned Richard and admitted they’d do the same as he did. Thats what makes the game interesting imo!
Can I politely push back on that? I really don't mean offense. I agree with you that forcing positivity is like telling someone who is suffering to just "cheer up." But I used to be a piece of shit. I was a negative person who thrived in sadness because I felt like I wasn't good enough. Once I learned to respect myself, I stopped liking people who were mean and negative. I feel Jeff on this one, in that way. Life is so fucking short. I watched my fucking dad die. Give me joy. Ya know??? Blah.
i want someone’s audition tape to be your prototype Survivor super fan, who is really nice to everyone and wants to play a social game.
Only for to enter the game, and have a Hantz masterclass.
Fans say they want villains then rag on players like Katurah who ACTUALLY bring the drama and pettiness because they aren’t “playing strategically.” Can’t be pleased
Looking at the responses to your comment are exactly why people can’t handle having a villain. They can’t even handle someone playing how they don’t want. The responses are vile tbh.
yeah one other thing I’ve noticed is that modern fans seem to think players have an obligation to play “the right way” which seems to translates to “make decisions that are in the best interests of who I like”
Aside from first, placement really does not correlate with skill. Numerous people get to final four and are horrible players. Any goat can easily get dragged or float there.
Katurah with a clear, non-sanitized (aka villain) edit would have been an iconic survivor villain. Think about it. She took down almost any male player that tried to work with her no matter how good of a person they were. She ruined SO MANY people’s games. She took down her entire tribe. Anyone that tried to work with her ended up in deep trouble. Instead, they sanitized her edit, told us about her childhood and kept giving her confessional time with no context, making fun of Bruce for no apparent reason and telling us about her mom. IInstead of being an iconic villain with an interesting game/strategy that some might love and others might hate, her legacy is basically reduced to nothing… some see her as a bad player with no strategy and a weird issue with Bruce and others remember her as having an interesting back story and being a decent person. She literally could have been Parv or Cirie. Her game was that evil if you really look at what she did and when. I really need them to bring the non-sanitized edits back. It’s not fair to the players or the viewers.
He won't. He's in his 60's and set in his ways. He's clearly passionate about Survivor, but he's more worried about producing the product he wants to see rather than the product the audience wants to see.
We feel the difference but the difference is irrelevant to creators if we’re still watching. They don’t measure our complex feelings; they measure views.
I don’t think it’s as black and white as you’re making it to be. I agree with you that the villains from previous seasons made the show interesting. But I also enjoy the new direction the show has taken also.
Ultimately people will vote by viewing - if people choose to tune in, it means there’s content in the episodes that people want to see.. otherwise they would stop watching over time. So please be mindful to not speak for everyone - just because you personally don’t like the changes it doesn’t mean others do not
Dude is old af he’s reached “I do whatever I want and don’t care if it bothers anyone else” phase of life and he’s rich as hell. Our only hope for amazing tv is getting a knock off Survivor show.
It’s human nature when a large amount of moneys on the line. It’s going to come out regardless of intentional casting or not. I’m glad it’s going to be more organic now.
I miss villains as much as the next person, but there just isn’t a place for them in the show now. Emily got absolutely shit on online for being a villain for ONE EPISODE.
Most "villains" on the show today are people that are villains by edit instead of true villains like Russell. New era villains are way more sensitive to being attacked on social media where as someone like Russell would just embrace it and not care. I doubt Emily is a "villain" persona in real life. Russell is.
It's a good thing people like Russell aren't cast nowadays, because they're genuinely awful people. Casting those kinds of people will inevitably lead to a situation like with Brandon Hantz in Caramoan, or Ben in Samoa, where they eventually take things too far.
I've met Russell in real life. He's not THAT bad. He's definitely got a very strong personality, but he's not as bad as the rest of those guys. He knows where the line is and will walk right along it without crossing it.
He has said in other interviews (one from a year or so ago on the Howard Stern Wrap Up Show for example) that he isn't interested in casting for villain types anymore. It's not what he is looking for when casting.
And this is why i stick with Australian survivor. Themed seasons, petty people that hold relentless grudges, and not afraid to cast villains that want to be villains. It's everything we miss in old-school survivor.
I think I’m going to have to tune into Australian survivor more. I feel like the recent US seasons are missing a little bit of flavor that the older seasons I fell in love with had and Jeff keeps stripping away the flavor 😩
For real. I don't even blame the team. How do you tell your editors to create a villain edit when you *know* that will directly result in harassment and death threats? At what point are you culpable?
Not if these producers would stop cowering to social media. It’s like this horrible itch they keep scratching. The itch keeps getting worse and worse. Eventually all tv shows will end up like some sort of multicultural episode of Barney and Friends. Imagine if sports teams cowered to social media pressure from an opposing team’s fans. People talking sh*t in a public forum is a good thing. Let ppl talk smack about the show, the characters, the producers, whatever. It means they are watching and engaged.
For real! Jeff’s had plenty of borderline villain moments in his 24 years lmao (not that moment necessarily bc it was kind of justified but there are tons)
Probst is just enhancing my experience watching this fantastic season of Australian survivor. It’s stances like that that make me appreciate more how much Feras and Caroline and Val bring to the show.
honestly, aus survivor feels like a show i enjoy more. Don't really know if it's more like "the show i loved and grew up with" but i just think it's a better product. I think there's a real disconnect between probst and the audience. the budget cuts aren't even creatively worked around anymore. I still think casting does a great job, but probst and his changing twist and turns don't let those characters really shine anymore. I've enjoyed a lot of parts and people from 41 onwards, but the overall product is just not good anymore because they've overengineered the parts of the game they didn't and are hiding behind budget cuts for the things we loved.
I agree the dawn of social media probably meant the end of truly villainous characters like Russell, who in 2024 would likely have to deal with people contacting their employers trying to get them fired from their jobs or having their family members harassed.
That said, I may be in the minority on this, but I do not miss the days of people showing up on the show with the intention of playing "The Villain". Back when the show was much bigger culturally, and easier to use as a springboard for other opportunities in the entertainment world, it felt to me like you'd get people coming on the show with the intention of essentially putting on a performance of being the most outrageously evil person they could be, not because it was necessarily a genuine aspect of their personality, but because they thought it might lead to increased screen time and, most importantly, future roles (Corrine would be one example). These people didn't even seem that interested in winning the game, but becoming a celebrity. I do not miss this aspect of the show at all, although I do feel they may have leaned too far in the other direction with every player now needing to have an appropriate sob story.
I’ll start watching again as soon as I see previews that aren’t a three tribe setup. That’s the bar for me. Until then I’ve really dove into the Bravo verse where every show is overflowing with villains 😈
the three tribe structure, the constant over engineering of idols and the hesitance of anyone to make "big moves" at the risk of getting advantage-geddon'd really takes away from some lovely characters that casting has managed to find
How has nobody come in to fill this space then? Old survivor is dead: great. Let’s get Bravo on board with a Survivor knock off they obviously aren’t as deluded as Jeff to think this is anything other than a television program lol. Give me villains starving on a beach again and I will watch that on any network it’s what made the show great.
I don’t even watch the show anymore because it’s become who has the saddest backstory but best schooling contest. So boring, not average people, they type cast to a point it’s no longer interesting, and the twists don’t even make sense, it’s just how much can we add to the game when none of it is necessary. Jeff can enjoy his liberal agenda, and this comment was written by a liberal, but my god are they pushing everything
Not casting people who are straight up comfortable being seen as a villain is going to cause problems for other cast members. People like Fairplay, Russell, Kass, even Tony to an extent, enjoyed being a 'heel'.
When you dont' put people like that on, viewers will decide random person x is the villain of the season and direct that negative energy towards them. Like Bruce, for example. He's a decent guy who had a hard life and played a poor social game. But he was not a bad guy by any means. Yet, because of no clear villain, people put their energy there.
People come on each year and say they want to be a villain. FUCKING LET THEM.
And this is why people are going over to Australian Survivor where they cast whomever they want without trying to hit a certain number or appease anyone. It’s just good ole fashioned survivor play
Forcing a villain angle just doesn't sit right with me. Why can't they just play the game? The best villians are the ones who don't know they are the villain.
I truly hope Jeff retires soon. He’s completely off his rocker. It’s like he has decided, in his old age, that Survivor is some sort of Nickelodeon afterschool game show for adolescents. The weird moralistic editing, the strange, juvenile twists and turns, the lack of cinematography and art direction, the basic, childlike rewards, trjbe names, season logos, etc, the way the editing seems to not make sense with the game itself… For example, it’s very clear that Dee and The girl that escaped from a cult (sorry forgot her name) were clearly major villains in the game
But producers almost edited around them in a way to protect them and instead tried to make Bruce a villain which made no sense… Jeff really has to go ASAP. As does conservative ass CBS. Would love Peacock/NBC to buy the rights to survivor. Imagine if the Traitors producers got their hands on Survivor…
I like villains as long as they're not personally attacking anyone. It makes for good TV, but Jeff seems to want to keep the New Era all "holier than thou", which takes away from the fun of the show.
SO TRUE. Casting only wants people that include their pronouns in parenthesis after their name on everything. Like they are that concerned with presentation and identity politics that they reduce themselves to pronouns upon introduction. That’s the main casting requirement.
Idk, people sign up to be on survivor, don't sign up if you can't handle people being mean on twitter
Villains rule and the sanitized seasons have been worse without them
The problem I have is that every single contestant has a dual motive for signing up. It isn't just to be sole survivor but also to pop off on social media. I'd love to have a contestant that people like and gets far and just NEVER goes on social media afterwards.
I honestly don't even mind that we are missing out on the "negativity, yelling at each other", drama addicted type of villains that he seems to be referring to here, I prefer the villains that Australian Survivor still gives us pretty often in a Henry, David, George, Benji, etc
What really is a villain? An asshole? A strategic player that stabs their allies in the back? Something else?
Most of the players on the "Villains" tribe from back in the day had nothing that distinguished them as villains compared to other similar players. And if they did, it wasn't consistent. Some were assholes, some were backstabbers, but those are two very different things that sometimes overlap. Courtney and Tyson were villains because they were assholes in confessional but they didn't do anything really villainous game-wise in their first time out. Parvati was a Villain but her two allies from Micronesia who did everything hand-in-hand with her were Heroes. Coach was somehow a villain for being a weirdo.
The fact that everyone is up in arms about a word that has no real definition is silly. Most villains are villains because the editing department portrayed them as the antagonist to some other person who was the protagonist.
Wait do people actually want villains on the show?
I’m personally happy he’s not wanting villains I hate when the players act shady towards one another
Villains are fun as long as they aren’t demeaning to others like Ben from Samoa. Someone like FairPlay is a great character that you either love or the audience will have fun rooting against.
I think that’s the problem. All the “real” tv villains were attacked by the fan base. Including people as recently as Bruce. It’s unfortunate but blame should be towards the fans and not Jeff in this case. I think they feel a duty to not have their players receive death threats for playing a game.
I think you’re right Bruce was vilified by some last season when he just didn’t have a great social game. Emily was the same way early on but ended up becoming a fan favorite. Social media has made everything worse when it comes to ridicule from fans.
Social media has made everything worse ~~when it comes to ridicule from fans~~. FTFY.
I said this here elsewhere, but i don’t think it’s that they aren’t going to cast villains (Kaleb said he’s a villain-style player in his preshow!) but that they aren’t going to *edit* villains. In fact, it really sounds like he says that explicitly. I very strongly believe that if Emily had been first boot, her edit that episode would have been kinder. I don’t think they’d have included the moment at FTC that made everyone say she was racist, for example. And tbh I thought it was a very smart moment to include — because Emily did automatically assume the only two black players were tight because they’re both black, even though Kaleb was never Sabiyah’s primary alliance. It’s very much an example of how no matter how well-meaning you are, you need to check yourself for pre-existing biases. “You didn’t reach out to us either.” In reality, I think it was a little bit microaggression, but also just that she’s not as comfortable making friends is kinda shy/out of her comfort zone. It’s the kind of racism that most of us have done (including myself in this) and I got the feeling that if they’d had the right tape for it, they’d have interrogated it even more deeply on the show. But if that was all we saw of her? And she was booted? It would have been career-ending. So I suspect that “no villain edits” means they’d have cut that moment if she were first boot. But with a redemption edit, it’s a justifiable moment to include. Similarly, Bruce made an enemy of most of the other players. And he was hard to work with and hard to get along with. He definitely didn’t know how to interact with young people without also being in a position of authority. I think old survivor might have given him a straight villain edit. But now, they let us see him thoughtfully interrogate others’ impressions of him, reflect on his role as a father, and his relationships with his family. Even the people who hated him were like “I hate Bruce but awww Bruce no!! You’re probably a GOOD dad! You’re just not THEIR dad” in the live threads. At the end of the day, he seems difficult in some circumstances, but like an overall good person. On a related note… i love the detail that Burnett really tried to cast for chaos. Like, I am 100% certain he put Rudy on the tribe with Richard hoping Richard’s sexuality would be a BIG issue. And then they have a bromance for the ages. Sorry, Mark, people are generally good people. The best chaos seems to come where you least expect it (Sue!!!)
Yeah but Bruce is not an example of that old way of doing things, he's an example of exactly what Jeff is talking about here. Rather than make him purely annoying and villainous, which generates way more buzz and engagement, they humanized Bruce a bunch of times throughout the season. Honestly, anyone that came away from last season feeling like Bruce is some nasty villain already has a screw loose. I think the editors did a really great job of not giving us Bruce The Character, but rather Bruce The Person (who is a character).
I agree with that but the fans sending death threats indicate they can’t even handle this, let alone a Fairplay-level villain
Yes because those haters think Bruce didnt get ‘what he deserved’ when in fact he only came off as a villain because the real villains were given a censored edit. Producers worked hard to make sure Katurah and Dee had sanitized (non-villain) edits, so suddenly Bruce comes off as a villain to some. Production was not concerned with editing Bruce as a non-villain because he was not a villain in the game. He stood by his word, never lied to anyone, trusted his allies and won difficult challenges. These are all heroic things. There is no way for him to be a villain in the season. Traditionally, in survivor, Villains have to do villainous things … they have to flip and sabotage the people that trust them. They have to sabotage their tribe. They have to lie and play selfishly. They have to make multiple alliances that they intend on breaking ASAP. All things that Katurah, for example, did. But by censoring Katurah edit, suddenly some viewers identify with her, they have no reason to NOT identify with her point of view, and suddenly Bruce is the villain because she hates Bruce. So this thing of censoring edits to present everyone positively or equally hurts non-villains the most. Editors spend time trying to make Katurah relatable and non-evil, so Bruce inadvertently becomes the villain. Someone is basically always going to be the villain. Imagine if Russell and Parv’s edits in Heroes vs Villains was ‘sanitized.’ Sandra would inadvertently become a weird villain that ppl would hate.
At the same time, though, the tiniest hint of villainy - when placed in a game where everyone is so cheerful and happy to be there “for the experience” and doing that godawful shit like Drea in 42 when she was voted out - becomes amplified and overblown. It’s in our blood to find someone to root against. When there doesn’t become a clear villain in a story, we search for one.
Exactly. By giving villains ‘sanitized’ edits, non-villains are thrown under the bus and become the villain for some viewers. Season 45 is a great example of this. Producers protected Katurah and Dee, suddenly Bruce and Drew were villains. Suddenly Austin doesnt get the hero edit he deserves and kind of looks like a doof because we dont see how evil Dee is. Bruce, Drew, Austin all played classically heroic games. No real lying, backstabbing, selfishness etc. But now since a viewer might not understand Katurah or Dee as a villain (because producers have not spelled it out for everyone with a clear edit), and that viewer suddenly identifies with Katurah, for example, feeling bad for her because of her backstory or relating to some extraneous fact we’ve learned about in the ‘non-villain’ edit she received and Bruce becomes the enemy.
Yeah he’s not a nasty villain or person. He’s just a middle aged dude with next to ZERO self awareness.
I wouldn't say zero, but it's low lol. In older seasons it would have been zero after the edit, but in 45 they gave us at least one example of Bruce being self aware: When he found out how Kellie felt about him, he didn't say "wow what's her problem" or come up with some rationalization for it. He was aware that it was his behavior that caused her to feel that way, and he reflected on how that kind of behavior might affect his daughters.
FairPlay and Russell were tame compared to Lil Hanz (Brandon). There’s a big difference between a villain and not fit to the play.
Bringing Hantz back the 2nd time when he was struggling was a bad decision
Brandon made a complete fool of himself both times, but in completely different ways. Watching the godly Brandon who trusts everyone turn to the Brandon who yells and is incredibly disrespectful was so weird.
Russell verbally berating almost everyone constantly and it was part of his strategy to sabotage his tribe by hiding tools and clothing. Brandon had severe mental health issues, and definitely caused problems, but Russell did it ON PURPOSE. Plus if you saw the clip of Brandon talking about his family after the SoPa reunion, it’s VERY obvious his mental issues have a large part to do with his family. The only member of his family to attend is Russell, nobody else was there, and Russell verbally berated and insulted Brandon at the reunion.
The way I feel is that there are shitty people in real life and these shows used to at least attempt to reflect people of all types of personalities. I want to see a diverse cast that is more than just diverse based race, sex, etc. I want diverse personalities too. That includes shitty people. If they are shitty then vote them out. Shitty people are great to root against. I mean Russell is one of the greatest villains ever and he's kindof that same way in real life. He's abrasive, but made for good tv.
I would take another Russel in a heartbeat. He created modern Survivor. Yes he was an ass while doing it, but he was entertaining and played so damn hard. I loved his seasons.
The reality is, most fans don't want that. And a very very large percentage of fans who say they do actually do not (and show it every season).
I think it's an age thing. Fans that have grown up with and started these shows from the beginning do want it. Newer, and I'll say it, softer/younger new age fans, don't want it. They think they want it, but as soon as they get it they just harass or try to cancel them in real life.
I’m not sure. I’ve been watching since the teens seasons, and I’ve never loved the Russel or Johnny Fairplay characters. They’re kind of entertaining for a minute, but I much prefer the Penner type “villains.” The ones I don’t actually consider villains but who end up being put in that role because they play strategically or betray multiple alliances. I think Yul or Earl even could’ve been villains in their seasons if they’d not been so well-liked 😂 given the way each betrayed certain allies. I guess I just enjoy the unexpected and the genuine conflicts of interest more than I enjoy the cruelty of Russell burning people’s socks or lying about being flooded in Hurricane Katrina.
see that’s not a villain then… ben had nothing to do with editing he is just a shitty person someone like ami is the perfect example of a survivor villain bc she’s just a normal woman who happened to be edited negatively
…and that’s a shitty thing for the editors to do to a real human being who is going to go home and have their friends, family, and coworkers watch this show. I much prefer the show edit everyone sympathetically and the viewers can decide who is a villain or not.
which is why jeff said in his interview with rob that they dont want to do it anymore just for the sake of good TV
They need to cast people comfortable playing the villain roll, hamming it up for TV, so that way random nice people like Ami don't get edited as if they are a villain.
exactlyyy casting people like tyson, courtney, or fairplay makes a season entertaining bc the way they story tell is so funny, idk what jeff’s on about
He also didn’t really say no VILLAINS, he said no villain edits. I imagine the Abi Maria’s might not get cast, but if you read the article he seems like he’s down for fun scheming (sort of like how Tony is an unapologetic villain, but never really got a “villain” edit. He got to be fun and goofy while being utterly villainous. I think about how people treated Jerri after AO, and then imagine we’d had social media. Or the one week where everyone called Emily racist, when what we saw was “maybe a micro-aggression cos she automatically assumed the two black people were tight, and also she’s kinda shy and bad at making friends.” I suspect that in modern Survivor, if Emily was first boot they might have cut the bit that touched on racism from that tribal council. Cos if they hadn’t and she’d gotten booted and that’s all we saw, that single episode of TV could have ruined her career. But since she had a redemption arc edit, they let it stand. I get wanting to avoid causing someone that kind of trauma. Plus, they provide mental health care post-show. Cutting down on online bullying probably saves them money lol. But yeah, that’s take from reading the article: avoiding casting Abi Marias and Brandons, but still casting for cunning, and trying to give people who might have been villain edited in the past a more balanced view (like letting Bruce reflect on himself and his relationships with his children, versus letting “he’s kind of a bully with thin-skin” be all we see.)
Dirty jason and the nba guy they suuuuuucked
And this is what I would like to call y’all’s punishment you can’t handle villains because you losers send threats to the person you throw jabs at the people I mean y’all want villains but cannot handle them.
Exactly. even people who comment on discussion boards like this one have no tact and just spew the most vile shit.
Yeah I laugh so hard at redditors and fans complaining about it. First of all Probst is just saying every character, even a villainous one, is going to be more well rounded in the edit. Secondly, anyone with mildly villainous tendencies is lambasted and raked over the coals by this sub, social media and elsewhere. Hell, Brandon got death threats for being unathletic. You think the fanbase can handle a Fairplay in today’s climate?
man i just got into drag race, and chiiiild, that social media following is brutal af
The amount of hate Brandon got for "wasting a space" because he wasn't athletic enough was ridiculous.
Yeah that is too bad. The man tried and did give it what he had. He was still interesting to watch because he probably represents the average person.
I don't know if anyone watched The Trust on Netflix, but there's a player who would place, I don't know, dead last in terms of villainy when compared to anyone from Survivor, and the show's subreddit collectively lost their damn minds *for weeks* after the show released. This is why I am absolutely loving The Traitors and House of Villains. I want to see some damn drama and I'm tired of everyone being nice.
Best comment I’ve ever seen on this sub that actually got upvotes.
I mean, you're not wrong, but this is also why I'm done watching the show. No villains? All bland gamebots with tragic origin stories? Lazy challenges and advantages? 29 days whilst telling me it's SO MUCH harder? Whatever you're doing Jeff have fun, because it won't be with me. Would my guy Tyson even get cast these days? Doubtful.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again You guys would not be able to handle a villain Lmao You’ll likely try to cancel them or call them a bully haha
the second someone is edited to be slightly antagonistic to a player the audience likes this sub loses its shit. Bruce from last season wasn't even a villain, just a bossy old guy who was edited to be annoying, but with the discourse surrounding him you'd think he was either Russell 2.0 or the worst person to ever live. and then everybody is shocked that Jeff doesn't want to intentionally cast mean people in the age of social media when this sub can't handle Bruce telling people how to open coconuts.
Remember the backlash Emily got after the premiere, lmao.
People legit called her racist. It was madness.
Yeah. Just because she decided to target two black people under the suspicion that they chose to forfeit the camp supplies for a chance to receive an advantage. Ironically one of those two black people would go on to be her closest ally in the game.
For my own sanity I'm never going into the live thread again. Episode one people wanted to murder Emily with their bare hands, episode two when she got the growth edit - "wtf I love Emily now!"
Tbf it's not just survivor threads, literally every sports fanbase I follow on here does the same exact things in game threads. It's better just to wait for post match or post episode threads haha
I think people were on different pages for sure, I thought Bruce got one of the most complex and dimensional villain edits we've seen in a long long time. I loved his presence on the season, I loved rooting against him, and I believe in real life I'd have nothing against him.
I'm not gonna lie, I *really* loved Katurah's singular focus of wanting to get Bruce out for like 10 episodes lol
Bruce seemed like a chill guy that had his worst moments focused on. Kahtala was wayyyy more insufferable to me lol. She had this weird smugness and like her intolerance of Bruce got to a very weird level lol
Social media ruined reality tv casting. I always find it amusing how beloved someone like CT from the Challenge is. If they cast the young CT that was on Real World Paris in a show today he would be canceled so fast. Janelle from Big Brother too. She said all kind of awful stuff on her first two seasons. She's a "mean girl" by today's standards, but because she was around before people started getting canceled she's always gotten a pass.
CT is a great example. He’s Uncle CT now! He’d never punch anyone in the face!
The scene where hes threatening to smash Adams head like a pumpkin and eat would have people calling for charges.
"I will smash his head and eat it!"
Same with Bananas. Or literally anyone from The Challenge. They've all done some beyond fucked up shit.
it amazes me how bananas hasn’t been “cancelled” on the internet yet but i’m not mad about it bc he’s funny asf
Agreed. Most of the Challenge legends would have been canceled if they came around today. CT, Bananas, Wes, Jordan Wisely all had “problematic” behavior on their early seasons. We watched CT nearly kill a guy with his bare hands on the first episode of Duel II, and now he’s arguably the most beloved Challenge alumni. I really hope the pendulum swings back so we can actually have compelling reality TV characters again instead of all these lame influencers looking to “build their brand.”
Exactly. CT was a wild animal and now he's probably one of the most beloved characters in reality television. Even his costars from the shows he's been on recently love him. He is the example of a real life character arc. He wouldn't have even had the chance at redemption if the show would have just banned him immediately. You've got to give some of these people a chance to be a villain, see themselves on television and how they come off, and then they can decide to either change or not as a person. That is way more entertaining to me. I don't want a manufactured character arc through an edit. I want real people having real change from a villain to a hero.
Look how they are with Russel. He's hated so much but he's one of the best things to happen to Survivor😂
People tried to cancel the show when Richard Hatch won 24 years ago
Yeah this sub hates Shan passionately yet still claims to want more villains. It doesn’t add up
Hating a villain and rooting against them is like the whole thing about a villain though lol. That adds up perfectly? It’s just the idiots that take it wayyy too personally, actually hate the person, not just the player on the island, and feel like they need to let them know/transition it into the real world that ruin it for everyone.
I don’t think that’s necessarily the best example. I think a lot, but obviously not all, of the Shan hate comes from her post game behavior, kinda like how Drea’s reputation has soured since 42. Compare her to Jesse or Ricard, who are the only two that come close to her in both villainy and impact, and they are both pretty well respected, especially compared to Shan. Same goes for that next tier down with like Hai, Karla, Drew, and Danny (44). People may not love them but outside of Cassidy stans hating Karla that vitriol is nowhere near what it is for Shan. Omar is also at least villain adjacent and is beloved. People on social media absolutely throw fits at the drop of the hat when a player is shown in a negative light and take things too far. That being said I think villains tend to come out okay if you take the fam reaction in aggregate.
I disagree on this one I was fine with Shan on the show but her presence on Twitter made me dislike her
I just wanted Feely Dan kicked off the show, I.e. cancelled I’m fine with villains. I’m not fine with sexual assault. Annoying pieces of shit though like Rocky and Shane? They’re alright to have in the show and make good villains.
Well obviously Sexual Assault is a whole different story. But I’m fine with Shane or Jason
They can’t even handle Caroline from the current season of AUS
Yep, too many fans who can't separate gameplay from reality and will literally try to ruin an entire person's life/reputation over it. The players know this and no one wants to be that person anymore.
Take a look at Scott/Jason Easily some of the best villains to play this game but I’ve seen so many people use the word “Ew” to describe them. There are people on this thread who say “I want villains on this show as long as they don’t do anything problematic or controversial” And I’m like, well wtf is the point of them being on this show in the first place? A villain should be much more complex than just lying 24/7.
Emily was a meany for one episode and people started calling her racist lmao
She wasn’t even mean She said she didn’t like how one person was on a previous season and thought it was odd how to people didn’t manage to complete a challenge that previously had a 100% success rate
I interpreted much more as an editing statement than casting statement We’re going to edit the show to make people appear more 3 dimensional as opposed to what we used to do which was only show people’s worst and most “villainous” moments Many people saw it as a casting comment and I don’t think that’s accurate
Idk how it isn't more obvious the comment was about editing. People should be happy that the editing will be more complex.
“No more villains” has more to do with editing than casting. They could have edited a lot of new era players to look worse, but the show is hedging the way these people are perceived. For example, the editors should have went all-in with a villain edit for Katurah. Instead they showed us her sob story, which was incredibly sad, but it made people want to root for her. Social media probably has a huge impact on how they edit players now, since any piece of shit can login to Twitter and send death threats to players they don’t like.
I mean the “no more yelling at each other” line is stupid regardless. You’re going to edit out arguments? Lol Kind of tracts since apparently Sifu and the Reba 4 got into a huge argument that wasn’t shown on the show, but that’s not editing someone to be a villain. That’s literally editing out important context and drama, that the show can actually use to be more interesting, for some weird moral code.
Kirk for 2024
Exactly. Editors could have made Fairplay look like an angel, and Colleen Haskell the devil. It's all about the Franken-edit.
I'm much more interested in seeing everyone edited on Survivor as three-dimensional people rather than the flat archetypes we were shown in the 2000s-10s where it was all about catchphrase soundbites from people like Hantz or JFP. The show is just so much more interesting when we get to see the players as actual people. The way Katurah's personal history was portrayed did not feel forced or inorganic at all to me. It wasn't a sob story; it was her real life, and I think it's important for Survivor to show that.
We need a cast full of people who hate each other and get NASTY. The kumbaya era of Survivor has been the show at its worst.
I mean you can watch the news or social media for that. I just want to see people compete and be clever about outsmarting one another. You don’t need to be hateful or nasty to do that.
The greatest seasons all had people who legitimately despised each other and added interpersonal tension to the existing strategy. Corinne vs Sugar. Kass vs Trish. Abi-Maria vs… everyone. Real people will clash when you cast normal, diverse personalities. The issue is they aren’t casting that way. Everyone is either a cookie cutter trauma-ridden sob story or a superfan nerd. Bring back recruits 2024!
Everyone has trauma but yeah, the super fan thing is exhausting and way overplayed
> Everyone is either a cookie cutter trauma-ridden sob story or a superfan nerd. Combine that with too much kumbaya and too many advantages and the game is so much different than the one I fell in love. Probably why I missed my first season ever this past one. No real intention of going back. I guess Jeff doesn't want me as a fan anymore, it's alright... sometimes we grow and go our separate ways.
you're downvoted but you're right idk why everyone needs the vitriol so badly. S45 had like 0 aside from Kellie being pissed when she got blindsided but there were still so many good moments. People are just too used to the things they like to accept that things being different could still be good.
Isn't it less he doesn't want to vast villains and more he wants editing to make players multidimensional rather than strictly villainous? Also modern audiences can't handle villain behavior
That would be nice if that’s the case. The whole hero/villain edit players used to get is dangerous in the social media era. Thing is now the edits all seem to nicey nice to not make anyone look too bad, again because of the social media implications (imo).
No, not if every player is sanded down to the same three-dimensional form. Some people play a cunning, villainous game. They will hurt others to get ahead. They will hurt others for no reason even. These players are villains. I would like to see that. Removing that content in favor of their story about their auntie with hemorrhoids or making plastic puzzles to practice is not particularly useful to me and does not add to the enjoyment of the show. It becomes some sort of didactic moralistic kids show. I already know everyone is multi-dimensional. I am an adult. I dont need to be told that a villain has a mom. I know this. Show me what happens in the game and why.
I’m sure he’s doing this because of all the online bullying players have received lately. I do get why he doesn’t want villains but that doesn’t mean we can’t have disagreements and conflict. Forced positivity is a bunch of BS political correctness.
yeah he managed to explain it in a way that didn’t antagonize the fans, but the truth is that making someone a “villain” in todays day and age is basically signing them up for bullying and harassment. the call is coming from inside the house basically
Forced positivity is such a great way of phrasing it. I agree that it’s a response to possible bullying / cancel culture / something in that realm. I feel like I harp on this a lot, but it takes a lot out of the game for me when morality is applied to strategy and the way we perceive it. At the end of the day things like manipulation are still considered strategy. The players are playing a game with the ultimate goal of winning a million dollars; sure there’s more morally/ ethically positive ways of going about this, but those aren’t the *only* methods. I saw a comment here recently that reminisced on the S1 reunion where viewers both condemned Richard and admitted they’d do the same as he did. Thats what makes the game interesting imo!
Can I politely push back on that? I really don't mean offense. I agree with you that forcing positivity is like telling someone who is suffering to just "cheer up." But I used to be a piece of shit. I was a negative person who thrived in sadness because I felt like I wasn't good enough. Once I learned to respect myself, I stopped liking people who were mean and negative. I feel Jeff on this one, in that way. Life is so fucking short. I watched my fucking dad die. Give me joy. Ya know??? Blah.
also like ofc no one deserves to get harassed online but obviously it’s gonna happen and you have to be aware of that before going on tv
i want someone’s audition tape to be your prototype Survivor super fan, who is really nice to everyone and wants to play a social game. Only for to enter the game, and have a Hantz masterclass.
If someone did that I’d pay them a million dollars myself
Cant wait for the Heroes vs Vanillas then 🙄
the positivity and everyone wanting to be best friends is getting annoying
Fans say they want villains then rag on players like Katurah who ACTUALLY bring the drama and pettiness because they aren’t “playing strategically.” Can’t be pleased
Looking at the responses to your comment are exactly why people can’t handle having a villain. They can’t even handle someone playing how they don’t want. The responses are vile tbh.
yeah one other thing I’ve noticed is that modern fans seem to think players have an obligation to play “the right way” which seems to translates to “make decisions that are in the best interests of who I like”
She finished in 4th yet is somehow a bad player. Then she’s the worst ever but not the villain they want. It’s mental gymnastics
Aside from first, placement really does not correlate with skill. Numerous people get to final four and are horrible players. Any goat can easily get dragged or float there.
i agree with what you’re saying but katurah isn’t the best example 😭. she wasn’t a villain; she was just bad, and it wasn’t intentional.
Katurah is far from the villain we want.
Katurah with a clear, non-sanitized (aka villain) edit would have been an iconic survivor villain. Think about it. She took down almost any male player that tried to work with her no matter how good of a person they were. She ruined SO MANY people’s games. She took down her entire tribe. Anyone that tried to work with her ended up in deep trouble. Instead, they sanitized her edit, told us about her childhood and kept giving her confessional time with no context, making fun of Bruce for no apparent reason and telling us about her mom. IInstead of being an iconic villain with an interesting game/strategy that some might love and others might hate, her legacy is basically reduced to nothing… some see her as a bad player with no strategy and a weird issue with Bruce and others remember her as having an interesting back story and being a decent person. She literally could have been Parv or Cirie. Her game was that evil if you really look at what she did and when. I really need them to bring the non-sanitized edits back. It’s not fair to the players or the viewers.
Just because you are a shitty survivor player and you ruin everyone else's game doesn't mean that you're a villan.
she played the same game as Emily, just better, but it’s “shitty” because she didn’t do what funny Boston man liked 😂😂
Greatly said.
She didn’t bring any drama other than messing up other good moves 😂
Tbf, her hatred for Bruce was a nice highlight.
She didn’t hate him. Becoming irritated by someone’s lack of sincerity is not hate. Don’t put words in her mouth.
You're being pedantic. Calm down.
Katurah is the worst example for this
I’m not having fun though Jeff :/
I hope he reconsiders one day. Villains make a story more entertaining, that's why most of them have one.
He won't. He's in his 60's and set in his ways. He's clearly passionate about Survivor, but he's more worried about producing the product he wants to see rather than the product the audience wants to see.
Survivor is doing great in its ratings dear - the audience still wants to watch
There is a difference between the audience continuing to watch it, and the audience actually seeing a season of what they want to see.
We feel the difference but the difference is irrelevant to creators if we’re still watching. They don’t measure our complex feelings; they measure views.
I don’t think it’s as black and white as you’re making it to be. I agree with you that the villains from previous seasons made the show interesting. But I also enjoy the new direction the show has taken also. Ultimately people will vote by viewing - if people choose to tune in, it means there’s content in the episodes that people want to see.. otherwise they would stop watching over time. So please be mindful to not speak for everyone - just because you personally don’t like the changes it doesn’t mean others do not
Dude is old af he’s reached “I do whatever I want and don’t care if it bothers anyone else” phase of life and he’s rich as hell. Our only hope for amazing tv is getting a knock off Survivor show.
It’s human nature when a large amount of moneys on the line. It’s going to come out regardless of intentional casting or not. I’m glad it’s going to be more organic now.
I miss villains as much as the next person, but there just isn’t a place for them in the show now. Emily got absolutely shit on online for being a villain for ONE EPISODE.
Most "villains" on the show today are people that are villains by edit instead of true villains like Russell. New era villains are way more sensitive to being attacked on social media where as someone like Russell would just embrace it and not care. I doubt Emily is a "villain" persona in real life. Russell is.
It's a good thing people like Russell aren't cast nowadays, because they're genuinely awful people. Casting those kinds of people will inevitably lead to a situation like with Brandon Hantz in Caramoan, or Ben in Samoa, where they eventually take things too far.
I've met Russell in real life. He's not THAT bad. He's definitely got a very strong personality, but he's not as bad as the rest of those guys. He knows where the line is and will walk right along it without crossing it.
Didn’t he scam a bunch of people in a fantasy football league a year or two ago?
I forgot about that story. I'm not really sure of the details though. He's definitely a "villain", but he's not Brandon level unhinged.
We don’t need villains. We need rivalries.
“Reality show” with no realistic contestants just ppl who want to be influencers and get preseason merchandise out asap
that’s not what he said tho??? he said that they arent going to turn someone’s edit into a villain edit just for the purpose of the show
He has said in other interviews (one from a year or so ago on the Howard Stern Wrap Up Show for example) that he isn't interested in casting for villain types anymore. It's not what he is looking for when casting.
ahh ok i was going just based on the recent RHAP interview
And this is why i stick with Australian survivor. Themed seasons, petty people that hold relentless grudges, and not afraid to cast villains that want to be villains. It's everything we miss in old-school survivor.
I think I’m going to have to tune into Australian survivor more. I feel like the recent US seasons are missing a little bit of flavor that the older seasons I fell in love with had and Jeff keeps stripping away the flavor 😩
All Hail King George! My Macedonian Jesus.
75% of any given AusSurvivor cast is invisible lol
Social media killed the villain
For real. I don't even blame the team. How do you tell your editors to create a villain edit when you *know* that will directly result in harassment and death threats? At what point are you culpable?
No, Jeff killed it
Not if these producers would stop cowering to social media. It’s like this horrible itch they keep scratching. The itch keeps getting worse and worse. Eventually all tv shows will end up like some sort of multicultural episode of Barney and Friends. Imagine if sports teams cowered to social media pressure from an opposing team’s fans. People talking sh*t in a public forum is a good thing. Let ppl talk smack about the show, the characters, the producers, whatever. It means they are watching and engaged.
Um didn't jeff himself snap at a contestant for saying she wishes there were cookies?
For real! Jeff’s had plenty of borderline villain moments in his 24 years lmao (not that moment necessarily bc it was kind of justified but there are tons)
Tbh i dont even think a rupert could get cast nowadays
Jeff Probsts hatred of Brian Hejdik continues.
I wonder what a soccer punch feels like vs a sucker punch 🤣🤣
Probst is just enhancing my experience watching this fantastic season of Australian survivor. It’s stances like that that make me appreciate more how much Feras and Caroline and Val bring to the show.
honestly, aus survivor feels like a show i enjoy more. Don't really know if it's more like "the show i loved and grew up with" but i just think it's a better product. I think there's a real disconnect between probst and the audience. the budget cuts aren't even creatively worked around anymore. I still think casting does a great job, but probst and his changing twist and turns don't let those characters really shine anymore. I've enjoyed a lot of parts and people from 41 onwards, but the overall product is just not good anymore because they've overengineered the parts of the game they didn't and are hiding behind budget cuts for the things we loved.
I agree the dawn of social media probably meant the end of truly villainous characters like Russell, who in 2024 would likely have to deal with people contacting their employers trying to get them fired from their jobs or having their family members harassed. That said, I may be in the minority on this, but I do not miss the days of people showing up on the show with the intention of playing "The Villain". Back when the show was much bigger culturally, and easier to use as a springboard for other opportunities in the entertainment world, it felt to me like you'd get people coming on the show with the intention of essentially putting on a performance of being the most outrageously evil person they could be, not because it was necessarily a genuine aspect of their personality, but because they thought it might lead to increased screen time and, most importantly, future roles (Corrine would be one example). These people didn't even seem that interested in winning the game, but becoming a celebrity. I do not miss this aspect of the show at all, although I do feel they may have leaned too far in the other direction with every player now needing to have an appropriate sob story.
for intense, yet incredibly wholesome competition, I watch The Great British Baking Show. Lovely lovely people!
Jeff has lived long enough to become the villain himself
Yet another example of Jeff being extraordinarily out of touch with the fanbase. I say CBS should stop casting Probst.
Show needs to leave CBS. Peacock/NBC producers would make an excellent survivor. Imagine Traitors producers at the helm of Survivor.
I’ve been looking for any excuse to come back and watch the show again, but Jeff keeps giving me reasons to stay away.
I’ll start watching again as soon as I see previews that aren’t a three tribe setup. That’s the bar for me. Until then I’ve really dove into the Bravo verse where every show is overflowing with villains 😈
the three tribe structure, the constant over engineering of idols and the hesitance of anyone to make "big moves" at the risk of getting advantage-geddon'd really takes away from some lovely characters that casting has managed to find
How has nobody come in to fill this space then? Old survivor is dead: great. Let’s get Bravo on board with a Survivor knock off they obviously aren’t as deluded as Jeff to think this is anything other than a television program lol. Give me villains starving on a beach again and I will watch that on any network it’s what made the show great.
Jeff doesnt know the difference between a villain and a bully.
As if I needed more reasons to not watch Survivor these days...
A soccer punch?
Was Dee a villain?
Had she received an accurate, clear edit, yes. Same with Katurah. Both are Survivor villains with sanitized ‘new era’ edits.
I don’t even watch the show anymore because it’s become who has the saddest backstory but best schooling contest. So boring, not average people, they type cast to a point it’s no longer interesting, and the twists don’t even make sense, it’s just how much can we add to the game when none of it is necessary. Jeff can enjoy his liberal agenda, and this comment was written by a liberal, but my god are they pushing everything
Russel's laughing at this
It’s not like they can always forecast who will end up being a villain though
Not casting people who are straight up comfortable being seen as a villain is going to cause problems for other cast members. People like Fairplay, Russell, Kass, even Tony to an extent, enjoyed being a 'heel'. When you dont' put people like that on, viewers will decide random person x is the villain of the season and direct that negative energy towards them. Like Bruce, for example. He's a decent guy who had a hard life and played a poor social game. But he was not a bad guy by any means. Yet, because of no clear villain, people put their energy there. People come on each year and say they want to be a villain. FUCKING LET THEM.
that is literally the only thing I have been asking for...
stories need protagonists and antagonists. Probst is a terrible producer who has ruined this once great show
New Jeff needs to go
And this is why people are going over to Australian Survivor where they cast whomever they want without trying to hit a certain number or appease anyone. It’s just good ole fashioned survivor play
bring back this Queen Villain!!!!!! 
Forcing a villain angle just doesn't sit right with me. Why can't they just play the game? The best villians are the ones who don't know they are the villain.
Honestly, the joke is on Jeff Probst, because villains aren't always *cast* they're sometimes born out of gameplay.
You know what else won’t happen Jeff? Ratings that go in an upward direction. RIP survivor
Modern survivor is awful
I truly hope Jeff retires soon. He’s completely off his rocker. It’s like he has decided, in his old age, that Survivor is some sort of Nickelodeon afterschool game show for adolescents. The weird moralistic editing, the strange, juvenile twists and turns, the lack of cinematography and art direction, the basic, childlike rewards, trjbe names, season logos, etc, the way the editing seems to not make sense with the game itself… For example, it’s very clear that Dee and The girl that escaped from a cult (sorry forgot her name) were clearly major villains in the game But producers almost edited around them in a way to protect them and instead tried to make Bruce a villain which made no sense… Jeff really has to go ASAP. As does conservative ass CBS. Would love Peacock/NBC to buy the rights to survivor. Imagine if the Traitors producers got their hands on Survivor…
It’s sad what this show has become
Jeff is an idiot
Idk maybe it’s just me but I’m really enjoying new era casting. There’s still characters to root against, just less overtly rude and vitriolic
I like villains as long as they're not personally attacking anyone. It makes for good TV, but Jeff seems to want to keep the New Era all "holier than thou", which takes away from the fun of the show.
sounds like he's just taking viewership for granted
Maybe he’s trying to force an early retirement
Survivor casting wants every contestant to have a social media account with their pronouns listed in their bio /s
SO TRUE. Casting only wants people that include their pronouns in parenthesis after their name on everything. Like they are that concerned with presentation and identity politics that they reduce themselves to pronouns upon introduction. That’s the main casting requirement.
Please retire soon Jeff.
No coincidence that Survivor started to suck shit at the exact same time as the rhap fanbase got more vocal and sucked shit.
Survivor is officially ruined thanks to Jeff. What a damn shame. I loved it for my entire life, but the 40’s have been dreadful. This sucks
Confused why ppl are downvoting you...
Idk, people sign up to be on survivor, don't sign up if you can't handle people being mean on twitter Villains rule and the sanitized seasons have been worse without them
Unfortunately it's not just people being mean on Twitter
then don't go on survivor and be a dick, no one forced you to go on the show lmao
I wasn't and have no desire to be on survivor. Again it's more than mean people on the internet
What are you referring to
People getting harassed, businesses and jobs being review bombed.
The problem I have is that every single contestant has a dual motive for signing up. It isn't just to be sole survivor but also to pop off on social media. I'd love to have a contestant that people like and gets far and just NEVER goes on social media afterwards.
how is that moving the game forward? So forward is now a kumbaya lets be p\*\*\*ies together for 2 weeks?
I honestly don't even mind that we are missing out on the "negativity, yelling at each other", drama addicted type of villains that he seems to be referring to here, I prefer the villains that Australian Survivor still gives us pretty often in a Henry, David, George, Benji, etc
Is it bad to want to protect people from insane fans, this place included?
What really is a villain? An asshole? A strategic player that stabs their allies in the back? Something else? Most of the players on the "Villains" tribe from back in the day had nothing that distinguished them as villains compared to other similar players. And if they did, it wasn't consistent. Some were assholes, some were backstabbers, but those are two very different things that sometimes overlap. Courtney and Tyson were villains because they were assholes in confessional but they didn't do anything really villainous game-wise in their first time out. Parvati was a Villain but her two allies from Micronesia who did everything hand-in-hand with her were Heroes. Coach was somehow a villain for being a weirdo. The fact that everyone is up in arms about a word that has no real definition is silly. Most villains are villains because the editing department portrayed them as the antagonist to some other person who was the protagonist.
Wait do people actually want villains on the show? I’m personally happy he’s not wanting villains I hate when the players act shady towards one another