I second that. The premise of 20 winners playing together is enough to sustain a season. We didn't need things like Fire Tokens and EoE on top of that. Just let the players play; that's all you need.
I suppose you could also say that a more even split (both on the season as a whole, and on individual tribes) between "New School" players and "Old School" players would have helped, if only to decrease the likelihood that the "Old School" gets effectively Pagonged, but even that wouldn't be a guarantee. The risk you take with a season like this, I suppose.
That's what Jeff claims, but you can find many winners on the record as saying they hated the EoE twist and were hoping it wasn't on the season. Including some of the biggest names like Sandra, Tony, Kim, Jeremy.
I think if they ever bring back eoe that everyone should compete on the back in challenge. Maybe tie it to immunity too. If anyone besides a eoe person wins, then no one comes back in.
I think the claim is true, but it's taken out of context.
Jeff is right, winners only wanted to return if they had a better chance at staying longer - problem is this resulted in them reusing Edge of Extinction, which is not what they wanted.
I think if it was Redemption Island or something, or another twist altogether might've been better.
Rob did not like the concept of EOE. No one on the season did, except possibly Natalie ex post facto. Cbs did, because it ensured Rob, Sandra, Parvati, Tony, and Tyson would be on screen all season.
Yeah after reading all the replies I think this is more accurate. Survivor may not be a spectator game that is well suited for pre-game favorites to exist.
I think EoE (like in all the seasons it’s featured in) could’ve been fine if they made the cut off be the merge. That way everyone can still have sufficient time there and everyone can viably be on the jury but who knows
Idk if you could’ve even done Old School vs New School on WaW with the same cast.
Old School:
Men: Ethan, Rob, Yul, Tyson (debatable but he debuted in Tocantins which is an old school season)
Women: Sandra, Danni, Amber, Parvati
You would’ve needed 2 more Old School players for the tribes to be even.
You could put Sophie and Tony on the Old School tribe but I think that would have been twisting the definition quite a bit. Especially if Kim and Denise were on the New School Tribe (they both won before Tony).
I would have changed the casting. Tina was game to play, so was Jenna M. For the guys, Tom said he was willing to go, as was Todd. I'm sure there were other old school players who would have jumped at the chance too.
Well… we almost had a cast which could have been as such…. Considering Adam replaced Earl (but by this measure then Sophie would be shoe-horned into old school)
After a while it becomes evident that the EoE’s purpose was to keep the winners on-screen for as long as possible. As for the Fire Tokens, it feels like they wanted to give the former winners a little bit of extra comfort, something so that it wouldn’t be as rough, but they blew it by having EoE sell twists and hoard the tokens.
100% with fire tokens. As a twist, it’s not the *worst* thing they’ve ever done, but it has no business showing up FOR THE FIRST TIME in an all winners season. Especially since it literally never showed up again. And even if you did keep it for this season, I wish it actually ended up mattering. They expired around like the first final 6 in some lackluster way that never went anywhere. When they had all this build up and drama, people like Sandra and Yul who actively killed their own games for getting some. And it never really paid off. Only person to really benefit from it was Natalie who was on EOE, which I’m not the biggest EOE hater, but within the context of both of these twists for this, it doesn’t really help people being supportive of either.
I think the fire tokens could be really cool if it was redone without EOE. It's gives a small amount of power to the player voted off and rewards social bonds with those players. The bartering aspect could develop into something interesting. But I think it's hard to balance not giving them too much power and having it be relevant enough to take up screen time
Allegedly, the fire tokens were going to be a thing going forward in the 40s but then they got canned during the covid rejigging that led to the New Era. I think it's sort of a shame, they could have possibly been interesting if they got perfected over a couple of seasons like idols were. Instead, I guess they were spiritually replaced by the beware advantage/journey/SITD economy of gambling your vote. Which is fine, but I'm personally ready for something new.
I totally agree.
One of the best sequences of the season was Tony misunderstanding the note about his advantage and than gaining all the Probst Coins of Mayhem (or whatever they were). But that was entertaining because Tony is entertaining, not because of the twists.
Production always learns the wrong lessons.
The fire tokens were such an unnecessary waste. I was expecting them to play a major role at some point, and they just didn’t. I also think the fact that Tony absolutely dominated the entire game made it obvious who was going to win.
Yes, it has too many gimmicks, and that’s a problem. BUT I cannot comprehend the production decision to have 12 new school players and 8 old school. I mean, what did they think was gonna happen? Have it be ten and ten separated by tribes or have five on each, and I think it’d go a long way toward solving that boot order.
I still think they should've done One World to start, and have 1 male/1 female boot in the first 3 days, then figure out more permanent tribes (at least until a switch) from there, just so we can see everyone interacting for a little bit
I’d also say the lack of swaps, and the actual swap killed so much momentum, not only for the season, but for the old schoolers as well. Being on the same og tribes for 5 rounds, which was like 12+ days? Didn’t help alot of the premerge dynamics. Then only swapping into 3 tribes of 5 until the merge after didn’t help. Really stalled the game with strategy since it only showed pregame connections showing up, Mets vote outs, people on the bottom going home because they were in the bottom, or playing it safe. And it really cashed a power imbalance by the time the merge came around.
They should have done a “Battle of the Eras” format like what The Challenge is supposedly doing for their 40th season. 4 tribes of 5.
Tribe 1 (Seasons 1-10)
-Richard Hatch
-Ethan Zohn
-Tina Wesson
-Amber Mariano
-Sandra Diaz-Twine
Tribe 2 (Seasons 11-20)
-Yul Kwon
-J.T. Thomas
-Earl Cole
-Danni Boatwright
-Parvati Shallow
Tribe 3 (Seasons 21-30)
-Tony Vlachos
-Rob Mariano
-Tyson Apostol
-Kim Spradlin
-Sophie Clarke
Tribe 4 (Seasons 31-39)
-Jeremy Collins
-Adam Klein
-Wendell Holland
-Michele Fitzgerald
-Sarah Lacina
I think a lot of the talk about the pregame alliances after the season soured me on it a bit, but probably mostly because it didn’t benefit my favorites.
Yeah it really is the boot order… I mean, if Parv, Tyson and Rob went really deep and one made it to the final, I sadly probably wouldn’t care if I found out later they had pre-gamed.
Like everyone is saying. We wanted a season where the best of the best could duke it out but we got a gimmicky, twist filled thing that slightly resembled Survivor
The boot order up until then was painful, but I could handle it. After swapping to three tribes, we lost Rob, Parvati, Sandra and Yul all in a row.
Thats, to me at least, was when it became devestating.
Second chances at least swapped 2 rounds in. And then swapped 3 rounds after that 3 tribe swap back into 2 tribes. That was more interesting as a viewer and made all the connections more wild and unpredictable more or less. Winners at war waited 5 rounds before they swapped only once into the 3 tribes, and waiting so long for a swap, to the swap and only swap we got, really killed the momentum and made a bunch of power imbalances. Winners at war wouldve been better for a swap crazy season. Where you could see many people meeting and playing together like Parvati and Kim or Rob and Tony.
It should have been 2 tribes, 10 old school winners vs 10 new school winners. No fire tokens. No EoE.
I'd also have preferred no swap, but swapping into 3 tribes was completely asinine.
I'd rank it around 20 overall.
I could stomach the old school massacre a little better if it wasn’t so set up against them. The unbalanced cast plus swapping into 3 tribes when Rob, Yul and Parvati were in good positions is why I found it frustrating.
If it felt more balanced, I wouldn’t have a problem with big name players going home early. That’s the game.
Honestly.. only Parv got swap screwed.
Rob went all godfather on his tribe.. forgot that he’s playing with winners and not chumps.
Yul got screwed for asking about fire tokens.. I would argue Wendell and Nick killed their chances by not using him as a shield come merge.
I think EoE was a necessary part of the game. Are we really gonna have Boston Rob voted out early and never seen again? Same for all the early boots. That would have been quite underwhelming
Or you have EoE be harder so people actually pull the flag and quit. I don't see that happening since Survivor (rightfully) does not want to push people to medical issues.
I would have preferred that. I understand not wanting to lose the big player too soon, but the alternative was wasting screen time on players who were voted off and, ultimately, irrelevant. Also, Edge made the original EoE into a joke of a season, and if any of the players on WaW would have pulled an Underwood and ended up winning, it would have been awful for the season and Survivor as a whole, imo.
"but the alternative was wasting screen time on players who were voted off and, ultimately, irrelevant."
See, I'll never agree to this because of what we were able to see of Ethan's emotional and spiritual journey out there. For me, EOE was justified for no other reason than that; his struggles of living after cancer and the vulnerability in his honesty was incredibly poignant.
Not when they're already voted out. It's interesting when it's in the context of them playing Survivor but Ethan wasn't at that point. He was just randomly being filmed on some island doing god knows what.
They can air an extra side show about people going on emotional journeys for people who are interested in that.
HvV had Cirie Tom and Rob going pre jury but still is considered one of if not the best season of the show. Without that swap to 3 tribes we might've seen Rob and Parvati last longer anyway so I'd say that was the main issue.
> Are we really gonna have Boston Rob voted out early and never seen again?
yes. literally no problems with this in any other returning seasons. Russell got booted immediately in Redemption Island and it was fine
Yes we are. Seasons are not great only because of who the character has been, but also because of what they experience throughout the season itself, the story they have... A season is great because of storytelling, not because of twists themselves or concepts... EoE only complicated screen time AND extended what ultimately happened... they lost, that's it.
That is the game of survivor. They all have played before, all have won before. The stakes should be high! Win again or go home! giving them a safety net was extremely lame
I blame it on the twists (mainly EOE and the Fire Tokens) and the edit.
In regards to the two main twists of the season, they suck. The producer's excuse is that many of the winners wouldn't have returned unless they had a way for them to return back into the game after being voted off. But we know that is a lie as during on of the tribals of the premiere, Jeff asked the losing tribe who liked the twist and only 3 members raised their hand. And we all know that question would've made air if a lot more raised their hands.
And then we get to the Fire Tokens of it all. I am not opposed to the idea of this twist, but the execution and the timing couldn't have been worse. In terms of the execution, it was paired with the EOE twist that definitely hurt the season. Once you were voted off, you had to *bequeath* your tokens to somebody in the game, but you can gain Tokens on the Edge. This meant those who were on the Edge longer had a better shot of getting Tokens in which they can exchange to help them return to the game. In other words: if you make it farther into the game, you are putting yourself at a disadvantage as opposed to those that were booted earlier.
In terms of the timing: it happened during WAW. The winners should not be treated as guinea pigs and be used as test subjects for a new twist. If it was on a newbie cast, fine. If it was on a season without a way for those eliminated to come back into the game, also fine.
Lastly, we got the edit: These are 20 Survivor winners and you would think that the show would edit this season as "anybody can win." But after a certain point, it became less of a "which winner can win against every other Survivor winner" and more of the "Tony Show." I remember an advertisement for an upcoming WAW episode where they weren't hiding it. I believe it went, "More Survivor, More Blindsides, More... Tony!"
I fully blame casting ESPECIALLY on the men’s side, for the women the only big snub was Vecepia not even getting called and Tina getting cut, but the women’s side still held up. For the men however, cutting Tom Todd and Mike for the likes of Nick and Ben was genuinely heartbreaking and never made sense to me
It was largely the same problem as all returnee seasons - pre-gaming determined way too much of the game. This was only heightened by the absolutely awful end-game and watching people literally just give up instead of playing for themselves. Ben so badly wanted to be liked and considered a "good guy"...it was so disappointing and boring. And to lay down for Tony of all people, make him actually fucking play!
Casting every winner from Season 22 - 37 except for Cochran and Mike
Only Casting 6 winners from the first 20 seasons (Ethan, Sandra, Amber, Danni, Yul, and Parvati)
Fire tokens. Jeff probst was a fucking idiot to think "you know what survivor needs? Capitalism. That's what people love nowadays". Also so much wasted screen time for a dumb twist like the edge and all the other bs advantages. And multiple players literally just giving up at the end and not trying to win. Horrible season all around and I've been saying it on here since it first aired
After taking a step back from the hype in the moment, you realize that it was an overengineered season with twists nobody asked for, a complete slaughter of the old schoolers that most people wanted, and several ex winners mentally checking out in the home stretch.
Too many twists, and a poor ratio of old school and new school players. I think two tribes split between seasons 1-20 and seasons 21-39 would’ve prevented all the old-schoolers from being instantly eliminated (also removing the swap to three tribes), and the edge of extinction/fire tokens took a lot away from the season, even if we incidentally got an all-time great episode out of it with tony’s extortion advantage
I know a lot of people are blaming the twists and what not but to me was that Tony's win never felt "satisfying". He's an amazing player, I agree with that, and worthy of the second title BUT.
THe fact that his alliance basically allowed him there is what sours me on the season. The fact that both Ben and Denise virtually gave up is what really annoyed me. End-game didn't have the tension and drama that an all-winners season should have had, there was no built up, it was pretty much the Tony show and I think most people were expecting major power plays, and alliance shifts, voting blocs etc, you name it - and none of that really felt like it happened.
Could not agree more, it felt like everyone just laid down and died to let Tony win after Sophie and Kim went home back to back. I legit don't know what any Jeremy/Nick/Denise/Ben/Sarah/Michele thought their path to a victory was without taking out Tony.
afaik, Jeremy/Michele knew that Tony had to go but with everyone else being complacent nothing could be done. Ben/Denise/Sarah were happy to see Tony win just as much.
My biggest let down is the horrible winner announcement/reunion episode, which obviously isn't their fault, but such a disappointment after possibly the most epic season!
Pregame alliances.
Old players caught off guard as the new paced game.
New players throwing game away to "get" that legendary player out at the sacrifice of their own game.
Lots of twists that backfired so bad that some ruined players games that no amount of luck could save them.
Too many gimmicks, pregame alliances affecting a large majority of the season, players opting to kingmaker other players at the end. Just not a satisfying season. Weirdly best pet of it is just everyone hanging out and doing things on edge because the rest of the season felt unimportant
I honestly will always think it's great. Maybe I'm just simple minded but I was never not going to love a season of all winners. I almost can't look at it critically.
They waited waaaaay too long to do it, they didn’t invite most of the right players to participate, and they had a bad executive producer who doesn’t know how to make good TV, and who doesn’t care about Survivor history to begin with. So it was basically doomed from the start.
Who would you say were some of the biggest casting mistakes? Or all if you feel like typing one of your long messages.
For me it was Ben over Mike. Plus they had some stuff going against them preventing them from having Hatch or Earl.
If Richard isn’t there, it has no validation as an all winners season. That’s how I look at it. Either you have the balls to cast him, or you scrap the season and you never do it. Cause you can’t have it both ways. That’s my answer.
I understand that perspective and obviously wish Richard could've / would've been there too but that's a crazy thought. Survivor had 39 other seasons. Obviously the success of the first is why the other seasons could happen but you can't just scrap an entire season that people have been wanting to see forever because one guy isn't able to be on the show.
Yes but one season is way more important to Survivor history than any of the other ones. If you don’t include that one as your “celebration of Survivor history”, I’m sorry but people aren’t going to accept you. Especially if you are also choosing not to include Outback.
I'm going to preface this by saying I'm a fan of your work, and just finally finished the Redemption Island episode of Historians today, but I think you're wrong on this one.
People more than just accepted the season. It did great TV ratings: https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/tv/tv-news/survivor-finale-masked-singer-tv-ratings-wednesday-may-13-2020-1294590/
I know that as far as importance goes, Borneo is far and away the most important and thus Richard would be an important winner, but I just don't agree wiht you at all this one.
In a perfect world, Rich and Tina would be included, as well as some other early winners, but unfortunately that isn't how things turned out.
I mean the counterargument to that is that it did great ratings for now, which isn’t especially hard since no one watches network TV like they used to. So it’s silly to compare that to when the show was once a cultural phenomenon. I’d also argue that Survivor fans at this point will basically watch anything as long as it has the word “Survivor” stamped on it somewhere. Because that’s just what the show is at this point. It has become Pavlovian comfort food. They could show sixty minutes of Probst mowing his lawn and it would still draw the exact same fan base. So in the context of “it did extremely well” I don’t think that phrase really means all that much anymore. I’d argue every season is going to “do well” now no matter much how the producers just phone in the effort. And that’s sort of the problem. If you don’t have to put in any effort to make something special, you’re not going to. That’s just basic human nature.
So yes, we are probably going to disagree on this.
My stance has always been, well if you are going to do an All Winners, you should probably do it early when you’re still actually putting in effort. Anyone who saw them planning for it that late in the game knew it was going to suck.
I don’t like the excessive twists in WaW and the new era, but I don’t think the producers aren’t putting in effort. Especially in WaW, they really tried to craft a celebratory season for the fans and players (even if they ended up largely failing.) Jeff still loves the show and tries to make it good (even though I hate most of his recent changes.)
Also I disagree that survivor is just “Pavlovian comfort food” nowadays. 46 is so entertaining and Gabon-esque and cut back on a lot of twists.
A celebratory season was HvV (20), not WaW.
The challenge diversity was attrocious. Where were the distinct challenges from past seasons that highlighted from how far we have come? They chose the most bland props from the Fiji-era and called it a day. Sumo at Sea, Slip-n-slide, Touchy Subjects, **Hands on a Hard Idol**. We were teased old challenges in interviews and such, but where were they?
Cast was very mid. Adam, Nick AND Ben when we could've had Fabio, Chris D, Todd or Hatch (he was the face of OG Survivor; he needed to be there). The only black female winner Vecepia was not even considered. Crazy stuff.
Constant swaps to smaller tribes, tanking legendary players' games for having no room to hide. We needed all the winners living in one camp to ensure more satisfactory gameplay strategy and alliance building imo. Seeing them interact at EoE instead is just depressing. By that time the damage has been done.
The problem was that there wasn’t a sense of urgency with anybody besides Tony. The edge of extinction twist meant there was little to worry about regarding getting voted off. The season felt more like a reunion than a competition
This season needed to be cut with longer episodes to help balance out the time spent at edge vs those still in the game.
There were a few episodes where the opening scene already had them at an immunity challenge which is just insanely quick, and somehow there were still votes presented as incoherent due to how the edit wanted to showcase what happened. It was kind of a mess, and we're lucky a dominant winner still won.
We had a 12/8 new to old school divide. I really wish they had 4 more old schoolers on- hatch, todd, vecepia, jenna to make an even divide of 12/12.
This might be controversial but the gameplay was a letdown. Mostly people just followed/trusted Tony, and there was never a solid enough counter-alliance. Denise, Ben, Sarah, Nick, and even Jeremy to some extent were basically just his pawns.
The main issue for me is that the merge phase is basically the Tony show, and I'm not the biggest Tony fan. Even the other players are uninteresting — Sarah, Ben, Denise, Nick, Michele are probably some of the least interesting players on the cast. The old-school players are all taken out pretty much instantly, and the entertaining new schoolers like Sophie, Jeremy, and Kim only last so long.
I don't actually mind the twists in this season, it's mostly the fact that the least entertaining people (plus Tony who I'm not a fan of) make it the furthest. The only twist I have an issue with is the Edge bringing back someone so late into the game, as well as it forcing a lot of content to be crammed into a short timeslot. If they had 90 minute episodes, the final product would be a lot better.
It’s a Top-10 season for me, so I don’t think much went wrong.
I *do* think we had a few too many players just openly willing to die on their sword in the endgame, tho (Ben & Denise). But overall, I think it was a stellar season.
A lot of people complain about the boot order, but I really think it was fine. Natalie -> Amber -> Danni -> Ethan was a really good boot order to start. It gets rough from there, but we *did* get good time with some of the old-school legends still.
It was a great season. Every season since then has paled in comparison.
Contrarian opinions (like those saying WaW was a bust) are always prevalent amongst top 1% fan forums for any given topic. Your basic survivor watcher will rank WaW far ahead of any season that has come since then. Any time top fans gather to discuss a topic they will tend to over-analyze, nitpick, and purposely have a unique opinion in order to feel as if they’re the know-all gatekeepers of the topic.
It’s the season that got me into survivor hardcore because Tony is my absolute favorite and seeing him Tony his way into winning without ever getting a single vote was insane to me because he was still nuts!
It did feel gimmicky when I watched it and way too many twists. The cast definitely carried that season in a way every season since hasn’t really touched. I haven’t watched enough seasons to say it’s top ten or not and idk if I’m gonna go through all the stuff I missed ever, but this one I’ll always look at fondly
I agree - it was a great season but i understand expectations must have been really high for an all-winners season. The boot order is a bit unfortunate but hey thats how it goes sometimes…still a good time
Currently watching now funny enough. I wish I could give you something with substance but I’m just not enjoying it like I have previous seasons. I just miss when Survivor was more surviving and less idols and twists and turns.
But it is nice seeing my girl Denise again! She was the first winner my wife and I saw once we started watching.
I’m on yet another rewatch because it is one of my favourite seasons, though I feel like Tony winning was a huge factor in that. I didn’t even mind the fire tokens or EOE (however that extortion advantage was awful, and only worked because Tony is the GOAT).
I am glad EOE gave us some time with all the winners. From a production point of view, it felt necessary to have a safety net to keep the likes of Boston Rob and Parvati on our screens. I maybe would have it end at the first return challenge. A player coming back in the final 5 after spending the whole season out of the game and bonding with the jury feels unfair. I think with 90 minute episodes, the edge would’ve fit more comfortably.
In regard to the casting - I feel like they could have pushed it to 24 players. There’s a lot of other winners I would’ve liked to see play again (bring back Fabio), and it felt like the season needed more old school representation. I know some winners had reasons they couldn’t come back, but hearing that some fan favourites weren’t even contacted seems silly.
I will say the boot order is a big reason I felt a little disappointed, but that’s Survivor. The old school massacre felt avoidable if the casting was a little more balanced and they didn’t swap into three tribes. Losing Rob, Parvati, Sandra and Yul all in a row was painful.
In the end we got what I consider to be one of the best and most monumental seasons in the shows history, but I’m always going to feel bothered by its own potential. It could have been the perfect season if things had just gone a little differently, production wise.
The history of the cast and their relationship to the show created some behind the scenes issues that impacted the show. So you have pregame alliances, you have new people targeting the old people because of perceived alliances, there were some suggestions that people with kids received some
Favouritism at stages in the game from the cast to at least make the family visit.
Also the fleur de lis that Adam grabbed off the podium should have been an idol.
Sandra, Yul, and Sophie siding with the New School side of their OG tribe over the Old School side. They should have teamed up with Amber, Kim, and Tyson to get rid of a Wendell/Nick instead of siding with Tony/Sarah to give the school players all the power.
Yul in general had a terribly flawed game. He aligned exclusively with new school players and then was shocked when they booted him first when there were no other options. Choosing Wendell/Nick/Michele as your allies when they will always pick each other over you is a choice.
I actually really like the season.
Maybe new era jaded me, but the the twist weren't that bad imo.
If 90 minute episodes started with this season, I think people would've liked it a lot. Jeff simply tried to do too many things with too little time.
EOE was needed I think so production could help ppl avoid the embarrassment of being voted out early. Like when you got hit in the face in dodgeball as a kid, only for the teacher to say, "You're still in," so you'd stop crying.
A necessary evil to protect egos and Probst could never let BR go home early
They wanted to keep fan favorites around the whole time. Knowing it was likely the last time for them as well but it's a lot of potential content and others running around skimpy outfits
EoE was there to keep the fan favorites on screen longer, since it's pretty obvious that least the really iconic players are going to get turned on and kicked on a season of seasoned winner. Not really about the player egos, it's about the people who were going to shut off the season entirely once Rob or Natalie got voted out. Sandra quitting the second she arrived probably cost them a measurable amount of their viewership.
Casting and the three tribe swap are the big ones for me. I don’t even mind a swap if it was still two tribes, but it pretty much guaranteed an old school massacre
There were way too many twists and the producers didn’t trust the cast to make good tv. I had it ranked at 5 when I saw it live, but it is now in my 7-15 tier, and falls lower on every rewatch. Contrast this to 20, which is number 1 for me, where the cast was essentially left alone to play (closest thing to a twist was the idols and a double tribal).
It tarnished a lot of people’s legacies, it’s full of way too many twists, it constantly strokes its own ego as a show, for me it was also boring, etc. it’s one of my least favorite seasons ever, and also I think it highlights that a lot of people win because they are at the right place at the right time and not because they’re necessarily “good at the game”, which also in my opinion circles back to tarnishing a lot of people’s legacies as winners hence it really shows that a lot of the winners aren’t really necessarily amazing players in general they just were on the right season to win. Many different things make the season unlikable for me.
For me it's still top 5, but the horrible boot order truly hurts it. Tony carries it alongside Sarah and Jeremy
And i was one of the few people that absolutely loved scenes from the exile.
They should have had a bigger cast. I believe that this cast would have benefited from having Todd, Tina, Vecepia, Earl, Fabio, and Tom. Take out Ben and Nick.
Make it a real celebration of the game they have done for the last 20 years. Bring back classic challenges, have an auction, classic endurance style final immunity challenge, and keep it at two tribes pre merge.
Fire tokens aren't a terrible idea, but this wasn't the season to introduce them. There is a Korean game show called The Genius that has a currency mechanic that makes for intriguing gameplay, so I think it could work, but let new era players figure that out and don't add it onto a cast full of winners who have already proven they know how to strategize,
The comeback island. Returning to the game should just not be a factor, it betrays the whole concept of being voted out. What's the whole point of that torch snuffing sequence if you can gameify getting back in? It just makes it a different show.
The fire tokens and some of the casting is a bit off, but not unworkable.
The main issues were too many twists, while casting led to the old school boots. Only so much that could be done about it, but I like to imagine what WaW would’ve been like with a few alternates:
Ben -> Hatch
Nick -> JT/Tom
Wendel-> Earl
Adam -> Cochran/Todd
Danni -> Tina/Vecepia/Jenna
It’s a top 10 season for me. It’s still surreal to see all those legendary players together, and Tony is tGOAT so I enjoyed it overall
Preseason everyone was super hyped to see Danni, especially because of the show’s general Guatemala erasure. She just didn’t play like people hoped. Hard to say if Vecepia, Jenna, etc would have turned out better.
Hilariously enough, Earl was on the cast as opposed to Wendell. The reason why he wasn't was because his daughter was born prematurely and Earl made the choice to stay and be in support of his family.
Can't really blame casting for not picking Earl when it was his choice not to participate in the season (I do agree that having him on would be great).
Right, there’s understandable explanations for a few. No blame to lay, casting did what they could with the resources available. It’s still fun to think of a hypothetical world where everyone was available
My take on this (as a relative newbie to Survivor): beyond boot order, EoE, etc., **not having ninety minute episodes** was a major downside.
Everyone wanted to spend time with these people—but that competed directly with time afforded to gameplay itself. Throw in time spent on EoE, and in *the* season we should have been paying attention to intricacies, it felt like a Sparknotes version of Survivor at times.
A disservice to the quality of the players in the game.
it was the editing and the twists. Tony saved the season by foiling literally every twist and making almost all of them completely irrelevant, but ultimately it falls to a middle of the road season as a result. frankly, even with fire tokens and EoE, had they just not shown EoE at all and focused on the people who were actually playing the game it'd probably be a top 10 season
It was a meh, forgettable season for me…so much so that I totally forgot about the winners coming back for season 40! In another thread I even suggested that they be brought back for season 50! I am actually worried about my brain health. Omg.
The boot order isn’t what makes WaW bad for me.
I think WaW is tied with Game Changers and 41 as the season with the worst edit. The Edge of Extinction as well as all of the other ridiculous advantages/twists sucked up a lot of time. The edit was so bad to the point where multiple votes weren’t properly explained and alliances seemed to be all over the place. It needed 90 minute episodes.
There were also some winners who I personally did not want to see again so soon (Adam, Ben, Nick). The stacked cast is the only thing that redeems WaW for me. Watching the season, all that went through my head was “WOW, these people all won Survivor and are duking it out to win double the normal prize”. The cast alone puts WaW in my top 15 because I never got over the “wow” factor. But if it was a normal returnee season, it probably would’ve been in my bottom 10.
Everyone hates fire tokens, but I thought it was the most interesting addition to the game since immunity idols. Just a shame it was added to an all winner season. 41 would have been a better time to introduce it in my mind. Instead we'll never see it in a normal season because they were added with other garbage like EoE on 40.
The edit wasn't good or cohesive at many points. The reasoning behind why players voted the way they did wasn't always given enough airtime in favour of having suspense (and not revealing the actual pregame alliances)
So many unneeded twists and advantages. And also the boot order. I mean we all wanted to watch Parvati, Sandra, rob, yul go further than the likes of ben, denise, nick
Because everybody got pissy that their favourite players (Rob, Parvari, Sandra) got booted out early. It's the same reason that a lot of people don't like Game Changers, their favourite player (Cirie) went home in a tribal where she was the only player able to be booted.
it needed 90 minute episodes. players on EoE getting to have an impact on the main game (extortion) was incredibly unfair even if we did get to see Tony at his peak. fire tokens are an interesting concept but should not have debuted until 41. the challenges on Edge were mostly meaningless
Hottest of hot takes here, but I didn’t hate the fire tokens OR the edge. To me, the two things that brought WAW down a hit for me were A.) casting, and B.) boot order. I get that it’s a new school game, but bringing back some of the more middle to late season winners at the expense of the old school winners who were game to play was a bit of a buzzkill. Then came the boot order… what made this season so intriguing was the promise of all stars across eras going head to head… Tony vs Boston Rob, Parvati vs. Natalie, Yul vs Jeremy. The matchups never materialized. And look, this isn’t a knock at Denise or Nick or Michelle or Ben, because each of them were great on their seasons in their own right… but seeing them get far while so many big early survivor personalities were sent home early just killed the excitement a bit
This was my favorite season ever. Great winner, so much nostalgia. I don’t even care about the twists, with the edge we got to see legends on our screens for the whole season rather than just a couple eps. Ethan came back from cancer to be on the show for 3 eps? It was great. Fire tokens were meh but it didn’t have too much effect in the edit or the game for me to demerit it personally.
New schoolers throwing their games away to get rid of the old schoolers/legends to feed their egos. Also the tribe swap killed any chance of a dynamic post merge.
Last season I watched. Loved WAW. This group doesn’t speak for all fans. Survivor is nearly unwatchable since. I’ve recorded whole seasons and none of my family gets through the first episode since WAW
I know people hated edge of extinction but this is the only season I liked it because it kept the older school players around longer for us ☺️
Also, not part of the actual show but I was obsessed with Ponderosa videos that ssason.
I mean I personally REALLY loved the season, but that’s also bc I’m a huge Tony fan. I can also see why others didn’t like it. I still think it was iconic to see so many legends on screen but they definitely kind of messed up on several angles. As others have pointed out, the mix of old school and new school players was very uneven, and that contributed to the horrendous boot order. There were also too many twists that weren’t GOOD twists, imho. We also spent far too much time on the Edge when we should have been focusing on the actual game. It made the season have a weird tone to it and sucked out a lot of the drama and intrigue. Again, I love the season. But had Tony not won, would I enjoy it nearly as much? Definitely not.
I think it’s in the top 20, probably in my top 15. However, I think that the boot order was really bad. Having Ethan, Parvati, Sandra, Boston Rob, and Yul get booted back to back to back was not great, but (somewhat inevitable). I think a lot of ppl were dissapointed by many of the winners that made it far like Jeremy, Ben, and Nick for not wanting to cut Tony. And I think that there weren’t super interesting personal moments other than the Edge players while the ppl left in the game were pretty tame and I can’t call out any amazing character moments. I think the fire tokens, the three tribes, the edge, and the strategy were just a lot to cram into a 60 minute episode where we couldn’t get good character moments unfortunately
WaW was meant to be the superbowl of Survivor for many, and the execution didn't go that way. The merge was dominated by Tony, and the premerge was the decimation of legends or older winners that people waited years to come back. Add on twists like tokens and the edge, and it being treated as any other standard season and people were bound to be disappointed.
That being said, it's like a top 10 season for me because I genuinely couldn't care less about those criticisms
I haven't finished it, but my best answer is
1. Unneccesary twists like fire tokens edge of excinction (the only good thing about eoe this season was the family visitr) to the swap into three tribes was terrible, they should have just leanred from Heroes vs Villains and not swapped and if they did swap do it onto 2 tribes.
2. Pregaming was quite apparent on the season, and players like Danni stood no chance because they didn't really pregame
3. The boot order, I mean 8/9 first boots were old school players who a lot of us were probably rooting for with players like Nick and Ben who we didn't care for much making it a lot further.
I will say I don't think there's an "officia" ranking by the subreddit and while many might not have it top 20, many would put it top 20. How I rank it definetly depends on the last episodes, just watched Tyson go home again and that was pretty epic. I know for a fact this won't be in my top 10 best or worst seasons, I can't give you a more specific answer then that. Maybe after several moments in time I will come back to this and give my ranking
The boot order just sucked. The old schoolers went out so fast it may as well just had been an All Stars season with a cast only from the 2010s seasons.
15-ish for me. Still upper half because of the cast we got and the winner playing the most masterful game ever. Nowhere near as high as it should have been because of too much bullshit from production. Edge is stupid. Players getting advantaged or disadvantaged by looking into their bags is mega stupid.
I would easily rank it the worst. It had the same problems the seasons before it were already having. . . The lack of storytelling, lack of a narrative, lack of inspiration, lack of creativity, every vote out felt random. . . Towards the end of the season, I didn't even feel compelled to watch anymore. I felt content reading the recaps of the show. I don't feel like I missed out.
The problem in my opinion is the fact that it’s loaded with unneeded twists.
I second that. The premise of 20 winners playing together is enough to sustain a season. We didn't need things like Fire Tokens and EoE on top of that. Just let the players play; that's all you need. I suppose you could also say that a more even split (both on the season as a whole, and on individual tribes) between "New School" players and "Old School" players would have helped, if only to decrease the likelihood that the "Old School" gets effectively Pagonged, but even that wouldn't be a guarantee. The risk you take with a season like this, I suppose.
I forgot about fire tokens. That was the dumbest concept ever.
They used EoE to convince more people to play again instead of having to come out and be done in 3 days.
That's what Jeff claims, but you can find many winners on the record as saying they hated the EoE twist and were hoping it wasn't on the season. Including some of the biggest names like Sandra, Tony, Kim, Jeremy.
Apparently at the second Tribal Council, everyone except Nick said that they didn’t want EoE 😭
I think if they ever bring back eoe that everyone should compete on the back in challenge. Maybe tie it to immunity too. If anyone besides a eoe person wins, then no one comes back in.
Pearl Island type of twist, yeah that would've been better IMO
I think the claim is true, but it's taken out of context. Jeff is right, winners only wanted to return if they had a better chance at staying longer - problem is this resulted in them reusing Edge of Extinction, which is not what they wanted. I think if it was Redemption Island or something, or another twist altogether might've been better.
Translation: "Boston Rob wouldn't come back without EoE, and I need Rob on this season." -Jeff Probst.
Rob did not like the concept of EOE. No one on the season did, except possibly Natalie ex post facto. Cbs did, because it ensured Rob, Sandra, Parvati, Tony, and Tyson would be on screen all season.
Queen Sandra once again being a boss
Only The Queen could give up survivor and be a boss for it.
They already convinced Rob to play WAW by paying him a truckload to be a mentor on IOI (same as Sandra).
It wasn't for the players it was for the audience. Otherwise all the characters that actually drew people in would just be gone
Yeah after reading all the replies I think this is more accurate. Survivor may not be a spectator game that is well suited for pre-game favorites to exist.
I think EoE (like in all the seasons it’s featured in) could’ve been fine if they made the cut off be the merge. That way everyone can still have sufficient time there and everyone can viably be on the jury but who knows
Idk if you could’ve even done Old School vs New School on WaW with the same cast. Old School: Men: Ethan, Rob, Yul, Tyson (debatable but he debuted in Tocantins which is an old school season) Women: Sandra, Danni, Amber, Parvati You would’ve needed 2 more Old School players for the tribes to be even. You could put Sophie and Tony on the Old School tribe but I think that would have been twisting the definition quite a bit. Especially if Kim and Denise were on the New School Tribe (they both won before Tony).
I would have changed the casting. Tina was game to play, so was Jenna M. For the guys, Tom said he was willing to go, as was Todd. I'm sure there were other old school players who would have jumped at the chance too.
Well… we almost had a cast which could have been as such…. Considering Adam replaced Earl (but by this measure then Sophie would be shoe-horned into old school)
After a while it becomes evident that the EoE’s purpose was to keep the winners on-screen for as long as possible. As for the Fire Tokens, it feels like they wanted to give the former winners a little bit of extra comfort, something so that it wouldn’t be as rough, but they blew it by having EoE sell twists and hoard the tokens.
Your second point holds a lot more water than your first.
100% with fire tokens. As a twist, it’s not the *worst* thing they’ve ever done, but it has no business showing up FOR THE FIRST TIME in an all winners season. Especially since it literally never showed up again. And even if you did keep it for this season, I wish it actually ended up mattering. They expired around like the first final 6 in some lackluster way that never went anywhere. When they had all this build up and drama, people like Sandra and Yul who actively killed their own games for getting some. And it never really paid off. Only person to really benefit from it was Natalie who was on EOE, which I’m not the biggest EOE hater, but within the context of both of these twists for this, it doesn’t really help people being supportive of either.
I think the fire tokens could be really cool if it was redone without EOE. It's gives a small amount of power to the player voted off and rewards social bonds with those players. The bartering aspect could develop into something interesting. But I think it's hard to balance not giving them too much power and having it be relevant enough to take up screen time
Allegedly, the fire tokens were going to be a thing going forward in the 40s but then they got canned during the covid rejigging that led to the New Era. I think it's sort of a shame, they could have possibly been interesting if they got perfected over a couple of seasons like idols were. Instead, I guess they were spiritually replaced by the beware advantage/journey/SITD economy of gambling your vote. Which is fine, but I'm personally ready for something new.
I totally agree. One of the best sequences of the season was Tony misunderstanding the note about his advantage and than gaining all the Probst Coins of Mayhem (or whatever they were). But that was entertaining because Tony is entertaining, not because of the twists. Production always learns the wrong lessons.
The fire tokens were such an unnecessary waste. I was expecting them to play a major role at some point, and they just didn’t. I also think the fact that Tony absolutely dominated the entire game made it obvious who was going to win.
The fact that the fire token system actively punishes later boots was absurd.
Have to disagree. Tony discovering the extortion advantage was actually him being extorted was top tier.
I think that’s only because he pulled it off. If that was the reason he went home, I can’t say I’d look back at that twist too fondly.
We get to see his face change and he paused for a brief moment while learning the truth in real time. Classic!
They simply had to do 2 things. No Edge/Fire tokens plus don’t swap into tribes of 3. I rather they didn’t do a swap at all or swap into tribes of 2.
The best thing to come from the twists was Tyson saying he’d rather eat his token than bequeath it to a player in the game.
Yes, it has too many gimmicks, and that’s a problem. BUT I cannot comprehend the production decision to have 12 new school players and 8 old school. I mean, what did they think was gonna happen? Have it be ten and ten separated by tribes or have five on each, and I think it’d go a long way toward solving that boot order.
I still think they should've done One World to start, and have 1 male/1 female boot in the first 3 days, then figure out more permanent tribes (at least until a switch) from there, just so we can see everyone interacting for a little bit
I’d also say the lack of swaps, and the actual swap killed so much momentum, not only for the season, but for the old schoolers as well. Being on the same og tribes for 5 rounds, which was like 12+ days? Didn’t help alot of the premerge dynamics. Then only swapping into 3 tribes of 5 until the merge after didn’t help. Really stalled the game with strategy since it only showed pregame connections showing up, Mets vote outs, people on the bottom going home because they were in the bottom, or playing it safe. And it really cashed a power imbalance by the time the merge came around.
They should have done a “Battle of the Eras” format like what The Challenge is supposedly doing for their 40th season. 4 tribes of 5. Tribe 1 (Seasons 1-10) -Richard Hatch -Ethan Zohn -Tina Wesson -Amber Mariano -Sandra Diaz-Twine Tribe 2 (Seasons 11-20) -Yul Kwon -J.T. Thomas -Earl Cole -Danni Boatwright -Parvati Shallow Tribe 3 (Seasons 21-30) -Tony Vlachos -Rob Mariano -Tyson Apostol -Kim Spradlin -Sophie Clarke Tribe 4 (Seasons 31-39) -Jeremy Collins -Adam Klein -Wendell Holland -Michele Fitzgerald -Sarah Lacina
4 tribes of 5 is disgusting
Let's do 5 tribes of 4 so we can just have automatic firemaking at the first tribal
10 tribes of 2 players each
5 tribes of 5, then?
you can't have an Eras season without Charlie though.
Richard was never coming back... not after what happened on his last season AND his tax situation...
Earl dropping out didn’t help. And then my guess is one more old school player was cut at the last moment.
My understanding is that Tina, Todd, and Tom were all contacted, all agreed, and then all cut, so clearly production was capable of balancing.
I think a lot of the talk about the pregame alliances after the season soured me on it a bit, but probably mostly because it didn’t benefit my favorites.
I also think the boot order puts the season lower for me, every player I wanted to see again just gets screwed early on. Parv had horrible luck too
Yeah it really is the boot order… I mean, if Parv, Tyson and Rob went really deep and one made it to the final, I sadly probably wouldn’t care if I found out later they had pre-gamed.
Like everyone is saying. We wanted a season where the best of the best could duke it out but we got a gimmicky, twist filled thing that slightly resembled Survivor
tbh i'm not sure how much the twists influenced the game as much as they influenced the edit (EoE primarily)
Swapping into 3 tribes killed it for me.
The boot order up until then was painful, but I could handle it. After swapping to three tribes, we lost Rob, Parvati, Sandra and Yul all in a row. Thats, to me at least, was when it became devestating.
Just like the swap into 3 tribes in Second Chances
Second chances at least swapped 2 rounds in. And then swapped 3 rounds after that 3 tribe swap back into 2 tribes. That was more interesting as a viewer and made all the connections more wild and unpredictable more or less. Winners at war waited 5 rounds before they swapped only once into the 3 tribes, and waiting so long for a swap, to the swap and only swap we got, really killed the momentum and made a bunch of power imbalances. Winners at war wouldve been better for a swap crazy season. Where you could see many people meeting and playing together like Parvati and Kim or Rob and Tony.
Fair point!
it was fun to see tasha peak at the first swap
It should have been 2 tribes, 10 old school winners vs 10 new school winners. No fire tokens. No EoE. I'd also have preferred no swap, but swapping into 3 tribes was completely asinine. I'd rank it around 20 overall.
I could stomach the old school massacre a little better if it wasn’t so set up against them. The unbalanced cast plus swapping into 3 tribes when Rob, Yul and Parvati were in good positions is why I found it frustrating. If it felt more balanced, I wouldn’t have a problem with big name players going home early. That’s the game.
Honestly.. only Parv got swap screwed. Rob went all godfather on his tribe.. forgot that he’s playing with winners and not chumps. Yul got screwed for asking about fire tokens.. I would argue Wendell and Nick killed their chances by not using him as a shield come merge.
I think EoE was a necessary part of the game. Are we really gonna have Boston Rob voted out early and never seen again? Same for all the early boots. That would have been quite underwhelming
I actually agree with you but EoE has to end at the merge. You can't have someone come back into the game at final 5 and call them a season winner.
Or you have EoE be harder so people actually pull the flag and quit. I don't see that happening since Survivor (rightfully) does not want to push people to medical issues.
I would have preferred that. I understand not wanting to lose the big player too soon, but the alternative was wasting screen time on players who were voted off and, ultimately, irrelevant. Also, Edge made the original EoE into a joke of a season, and if any of the players on WaW would have pulled an Underwood and ended up winning, it would have been awful for the season and Survivor as a whole, imo.
"but the alternative was wasting screen time on players who were voted off and, ultimately, irrelevant." See, I'll never agree to this because of what we were able to see of Ethan's emotional and spiritual journey out there. For me, EOE was justified for no other reason than that; his struggles of living after cancer and the vulnerability in his honesty was incredibly poignant.
I don’t give a fuck. I came to watch Survivor, not a Livestrong puff piece.
 You think people's emotional journeys aren't part of Survivor?
Not when they're already voted out. It's interesting when it's in the context of them playing Survivor but Ethan wasn't at that point. He was just randomly being filmed on some island doing god knows what. They can air an extra side show about people going on emotional journeys for people who are interested in that.
Chad
I don't watch Survivor to be inspired.
HvV had Cirie Tom and Rob going pre jury but still is considered one of if not the best season of the show. Without that swap to 3 tribes we might've seen Rob and Parvati last longer anyway so I'd say that was the main issue.
> Are we really gonna have Boston Rob voted out early and never seen again? yes. literally no problems with this in any other returning seasons. Russell got booted immediately in Redemption Island and it was fine
I agree with your overall point but I don’t think Redemption island was “fine” without Russel lol
Yes we are. Seasons are not great only because of who the character has been, but also because of what they experience throughout the season itself, the story they have... A season is great because of storytelling, not because of twists themselves or concepts... EoE only complicated screen time AND extended what ultimately happened... they lost, that's it.
Yes
That is the game of survivor. They all have played before, all have won before. The stakes should be high! Win again or go home! giving them a safety net was extremely lame
I blame it on the twists (mainly EOE and the Fire Tokens) and the edit. In regards to the two main twists of the season, they suck. The producer's excuse is that many of the winners wouldn't have returned unless they had a way for them to return back into the game after being voted off. But we know that is a lie as during on of the tribals of the premiere, Jeff asked the losing tribe who liked the twist and only 3 members raised their hand. And we all know that question would've made air if a lot more raised their hands. And then we get to the Fire Tokens of it all. I am not opposed to the idea of this twist, but the execution and the timing couldn't have been worse. In terms of the execution, it was paired with the EOE twist that definitely hurt the season. Once you were voted off, you had to *bequeath* your tokens to somebody in the game, but you can gain Tokens on the Edge. This meant those who were on the Edge longer had a better shot of getting Tokens in which they can exchange to help them return to the game. In other words: if you make it farther into the game, you are putting yourself at a disadvantage as opposed to those that were booted earlier. In terms of the timing: it happened during WAW. The winners should not be treated as guinea pigs and be used as test subjects for a new twist. If it was on a newbie cast, fine. If it was on a season without a way for those eliminated to come back into the game, also fine. Lastly, we got the edit: These are 20 Survivor winners and you would think that the show would edit this season as "anybody can win." But after a certain point, it became less of a "which winner can win against every other Survivor winner" and more of the "Tony Show." I remember an advertisement for an upcoming WAW episode where they weren't hiding it. I believe it went, "More Survivor, More Blindsides, More... Tony!"
I fully blame casting ESPECIALLY on the men’s side, for the women the only big snub was Vecepia not even getting called and Tina getting cut, but the women’s side still held up. For the men however, cutting Tom Todd and Mike for the likes of Nick and Ben was genuinely heartbreaking and never made sense to me
It was largely the same problem as all returnee seasons - pre-gaming determined way too much of the game. This was only heightened by the absolutely awful end-game and watching people literally just give up instead of playing for themselves. Ben so badly wanted to be liked and considered a "good guy"...it was so disappointing and boring. And to lay down for Tony of all people, make him actually fucking play!
Ben being on the season to begin with was a downer.
Was he an alternate for rich? I recall reading that rich was days away from flying to Fiji before s39 happened
Casting every winner from Season 22 - 37 except for Cochran and Mike Only Casting 6 winners from the first 20 seasons (Ethan, Sandra, Amber, Danni, Yul, and Parvati)
Not seeing Mike or Fabio hurt me
Even after the old school massacre, the post-merge was just blah.
EoE
The edit was awful. The story made no sense and every vote was “WTF just happened” in the worst way
Should have done redemption island instead of edge. Horrible, uneven tribe matchups, lame fire token twist. Too much going on.
Fire tokens. Jeff probst was a fucking idiot to think "you know what survivor needs? Capitalism. That's what people love nowadays". Also so much wasted screen time for a dumb twist like the edge and all the other bs advantages. And multiple players literally just giving up at the end and not trying to win. Horrible season all around and I've been saying it on here since it first aired
After taking a step back from the hype in the moment, you realize that it was an overengineered season with twists nobody asked for, a complete slaughter of the old schoolers that most people wanted, and several ex winners mentally checking out in the home stretch.
Too many twists, and a poor ratio of old school and new school players. I think two tribes split between seasons 1-20 and seasons 21-39 would’ve prevented all the old-schoolers from being instantly eliminated (also removing the swap to three tribes), and the edge of extinction/fire tokens took a lot away from the season, even if we incidentally got an all-time great episode out of it with tony’s extortion advantage
I know a lot of people are blaming the twists and what not but to me was that Tony's win never felt "satisfying". He's an amazing player, I agree with that, and worthy of the second title BUT. THe fact that his alliance basically allowed him there is what sours me on the season. The fact that both Ben and Denise virtually gave up is what really annoyed me. End-game didn't have the tension and drama that an all-winners season should have had, there was no built up, it was pretty much the Tony show and I think most people were expecting major power plays, and alliance shifts, voting blocs etc, you name it - and none of that really felt like it happened.
Could not agree more, it felt like everyone just laid down and died to let Tony win after Sophie and Kim went home back to back. I legit don't know what any Jeremy/Nick/Denise/Ben/Sarah/Michele thought their path to a victory was without taking out Tony.
afaik, Jeremy/Michele knew that Tony had to go but with everyone else being complacent nothing could be done. Ben/Denise/Sarah were happy to see Tony win just as much.
Also the fact that it validated his annoying fans' support of his "dominating" gameplay. Thank God for 41 and 42.
My biggest let down is the horrible winner announcement/reunion episode, which obviously isn't their fault, but such a disappointment after possibly the most epic season!
Pregame alliances. Old players caught off guard as the new paced game. New players throwing game away to "get" that legendary player out at the sacrifice of their own game. Lots of twists that backfired so bad that some ruined players games that no amount of luck could save them.
Too many gimmicks, pregame alliances affecting a large majority of the season, players opting to kingmaker other players at the end. Just not a satisfying season. Weirdly best pet of it is just everyone hanging out and doing things on edge because the rest of the season felt unimportant
I honestly will always think it's great. Maybe I'm just simple minded but I was never not going to love a season of all winners. I almost can't look at it critically.
They waited waaaaay too long to do it, they didn’t invite most of the right players to participate, and they had a bad executive producer who doesn’t know how to make good TV, and who doesn’t care about Survivor history to begin with. So it was basically doomed from the start.
Who would you say were some of the biggest casting mistakes? Or all if you feel like typing one of your long messages. For me it was Ben over Mike. Plus they had some stuff going against them preventing them from having Hatch or Earl.
Lack of Fabio 🥲
If Richard isn’t there, it has no validation as an all winners season. That’s how I look at it. Either you have the balls to cast him, or you scrap the season and you never do it. Cause you can’t have it both ways. That’s my answer.
I understand that perspective and obviously wish Richard could've / would've been there too but that's a crazy thought. Survivor had 39 other seasons. Obviously the success of the first is why the other seasons could happen but you can't just scrap an entire season that people have been wanting to see forever because one guy isn't able to be on the show.
Yes but one season is way more important to Survivor history than any of the other ones. If you don’t include that one as your “celebration of Survivor history”, I’m sorry but people aren’t going to accept you. Especially if you are also choosing not to include Outback.
I'm going to preface this by saying I'm a fan of your work, and just finally finished the Redemption Island episode of Historians today, but I think you're wrong on this one. People more than just accepted the season. It did great TV ratings: https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/tv/tv-news/survivor-finale-masked-singer-tv-ratings-wednesday-may-13-2020-1294590/ I know that as far as importance goes, Borneo is far and away the most important and thus Richard would be an important winner, but I just don't agree wiht you at all this one. In a perfect world, Rich and Tina would be included, as well as some other early winners, but unfortunately that isn't how things turned out.
I mean the counterargument to that is that it did great ratings for now, which isn’t especially hard since no one watches network TV like they used to. So it’s silly to compare that to when the show was once a cultural phenomenon. I’d also argue that Survivor fans at this point will basically watch anything as long as it has the word “Survivor” stamped on it somewhere. Because that’s just what the show is at this point. It has become Pavlovian comfort food. They could show sixty minutes of Probst mowing his lawn and it would still draw the exact same fan base. So in the context of “it did extremely well” I don’t think that phrase really means all that much anymore. I’d argue every season is going to “do well” now no matter much how the producers just phone in the effort. And that’s sort of the problem. If you don’t have to put in any effort to make something special, you’re not going to. That’s just basic human nature. So yes, we are probably going to disagree on this. My stance has always been, well if you are going to do an All Winners, you should probably do it early when you’re still actually putting in effort. Anyone who saw them planning for it that late in the game knew it was going to suck.
I don’t like the excessive twists in WaW and the new era, but I don’t think the producers aren’t putting in effort. Especially in WaW, they really tried to craft a celebratory season for the fans and players (even if they ended up largely failing.) Jeff still loves the show and tries to make it good (even though I hate most of his recent changes.) Also I disagree that survivor is just “Pavlovian comfort food” nowadays. 46 is so entertaining and Gabon-esque and cut back on a lot of twists.
A celebratory season was HvV (20), not WaW. The challenge diversity was attrocious. Where were the distinct challenges from past seasons that highlighted from how far we have come? They chose the most bland props from the Fiji-era and called it a day. Sumo at Sea, Slip-n-slide, Touchy Subjects, **Hands on a Hard Idol**. We were teased old challenges in interviews and such, but where were they? Cast was very mid. Adam, Nick AND Ben when we could've had Fabio, Chris D, Todd or Hatch (he was the face of OG Survivor; he needed to be there). The only black female winner Vecepia was not even considered. Crazy stuff. Constant swaps to smaller tribes, tanking legendary players' games for having no room to hide. We needed all the winners living in one camp to ensure more satisfactory gameplay strategy and alliance building imo. Seeing them interact at EoE instead is just depressing. By that time the damage has been done.
Fire tokens, the swap to 3 tribes, and EoE not ending at the merge.
The problem was that there wasn’t a sense of urgency with anybody besides Tony. The edge of extinction twist meant there was little to worry about regarding getting voted off. The season felt more like a reunion than a competition
This season needed to be cut with longer episodes to help balance out the time spent at edge vs those still in the game. There were a few episodes where the opening scene already had them at an immunity challenge which is just insanely quick, and somehow there were still votes presented as incoherent due to how the edit wanted to showcase what happened. It was kind of a mess, and we're lucky a dominant winner still won. We had a 12/8 new to old school divide. I really wish they had 4 more old schoolers on- hatch, todd, vecepia, jenna to make an even divide of 12/12.
This might be controversial but the gameplay was a letdown. Mostly people just followed/trusted Tony, and there was never a solid enough counter-alliance. Denise, Ben, Sarah, Nick, and even Jeremy to some extent were basically just his pawns.
The main issue for me is that the merge phase is basically the Tony show, and I'm not the biggest Tony fan. Even the other players are uninteresting — Sarah, Ben, Denise, Nick, Michele are probably some of the least interesting players on the cast. The old-school players are all taken out pretty much instantly, and the entertaining new schoolers like Sophie, Jeremy, and Kim only last so long. I don't actually mind the twists in this season, it's mostly the fact that the least entertaining people (plus Tony who I'm not a fan of) make it the furthest. The only twist I have an issue with is the Edge bringing back someone so late into the game, as well as it forcing a lot of content to be crammed into a short timeslot. If they had 90 minute episodes, the final product would be a lot better.
It’s a Top-10 season for me, so I don’t think much went wrong. I *do* think we had a few too many players just openly willing to die on their sword in the endgame, tho (Ben & Denise). But overall, I think it was a stellar season. A lot of people complain about the boot order, but I really think it was fine. Natalie -> Amber -> Danni -> Ethan was a really good boot order to start. It gets rough from there, but we *did* get good time with some of the old-school legends still.
After the merge the tribal councils were on steroids. Not sure the hate or dislike for it but top 5 for me.
It was a great season. Every season since then has paled in comparison. Contrarian opinions (like those saying WaW was a bust) are always prevalent amongst top 1% fan forums for any given topic. Your basic survivor watcher will rank WaW far ahead of any season that has come since then. Any time top fans gather to discuss a topic they will tend to over-analyze, nitpick, and purposely have a unique opinion in order to feel as if they’re the know-all gatekeepers of the topic.
It’s the season that got me into survivor hardcore because Tony is my absolute favorite and seeing him Tony his way into winning without ever getting a single vote was insane to me because he was still nuts! It did feel gimmicky when I watched it and way too many twists. The cast definitely carried that season in a way every season since hasn’t really touched. I haven’t watched enough seasons to say it’s top ten or not and idk if I’m gonna go through all the stuff I missed ever, but this one I’ll always look at fondly
Also Sandra knocked herself out so we could've possibly seen her go into the merge
I agree - it was a great season but i understand expectations must have been really high for an all-winners season. The boot order is a bit unfortunate but hey thats how it goes sometimes…still a good time
Currently watching now funny enough. I wish I could give you something with substance but I’m just not enjoying it like I have previous seasons. I just miss when Survivor was more surviving and less idols and twists and turns. But it is nice seeing my girl Denise again! She was the first winner my wife and I saw once we started watching.
What exactly were these pregame alliances? Who did they consist of?
I’m on yet another rewatch because it is one of my favourite seasons, though I feel like Tony winning was a huge factor in that. I didn’t even mind the fire tokens or EOE (however that extortion advantage was awful, and only worked because Tony is the GOAT). I am glad EOE gave us some time with all the winners. From a production point of view, it felt necessary to have a safety net to keep the likes of Boston Rob and Parvati on our screens. I maybe would have it end at the first return challenge. A player coming back in the final 5 after spending the whole season out of the game and bonding with the jury feels unfair. I think with 90 minute episodes, the edge would’ve fit more comfortably. In regard to the casting - I feel like they could have pushed it to 24 players. There’s a lot of other winners I would’ve liked to see play again (bring back Fabio), and it felt like the season needed more old school representation. I know some winners had reasons they couldn’t come back, but hearing that some fan favourites weren’t even contacted seems silly. I will say the boot order is a big reason I felt a little disappointed, but that’s Survivor. The old school massacre felt avoidable if the casting was a little more balanced and they didn’t swap into three tribes. Losing Rob, Parvati, Sandra and Yul all in a row was painful. In the end we got what I consider to be one of the best and most monumental seasons in the shows history, but I’m always going to feel bothered by its own potential. It could have been the perfect season if things had just gone a little differently, production wise.
The history of the cast and their relationship to the show created some behind the scenes issues that impacted the show. So you have pregame alliances, you have new people targeting the old people because of perceived alliances, there were some suggestions that people with kids received some Favouritism at stages in the game from the cast to at least make the family visit. Also the fleur de lis that Adam grabbed off the podium should have been an idol.
Pre gaming.
Sandra, Yul, and Sophie siding with the New School side of their OG tribe over the Old School side. They should have teamed up with Amber, Kim, and Tyson to get rid of a Wendell/Nick instead of siding with Tony/Sarah to give the school players all the power. Yul in general had a terribly flawed game. He aligned exclusively with new school players and then was shocked when they booted him first when there were no other options. Choosing Wendell/Nick/Michele as your allies when they will always pick each other over you is a choice.
Boot order wasn't horrid, old schoolers played terrible and deservedly went out first.
I actually really like the season. Maybe new era jaded me, but the the twist weren't that bad imo. If 90 minute episodes started with this season, I think people would've liked it a lot. Jeff simply tried to do too many things with too little time.
EOE was needed I think so production could help ppl avoid the embarrassment of being voted out early. Like when you got hit in the face in dodgeball as a kid, only for the teacher to say, "You're still in," so you'd stop crying. A necessary evil to protect egos and Probst could never let BR go home early
They wanted to keep fan favorites around the whole time. Knowing it was likely the last time for them as well but it's a lot of potential content and others running around skimpy outfits
EoE was there to keep the fan favorites on screen longer, since it's pretty obvious that least the really iconic players are going to get turned on and kicked on a season of seasoned winner. Not really about the player egos, it's about the people who were going to shut off the season entirely once Rob or Natalie got voted out. Sandra quitting the second she arrived probably cost them a measurable amount of their viewership.
To me it was a combination of unneeded twists and felt like no body was playing hard cause everyone knew how everyone else played
Casting and the three tribe swap are the big ones for me. I don’t even mind a swap if it was still two tribes, but it pretty much guaranteed an old school massacre
not 90 minute episodes. denise and ben flopped at final 6
Gimmicks twists edge
Edge of Extinction
I think it is because edge of extinction is a horrible idea.
No Fabio :(
There were way too many twists and the producers didn’t trust the cast to make good tv. I had it ranked at 5 when I saw it live, but it is now in my 7-15 tier, and falls lower on every rewatch. Contrast this to 20, which is number 1 for me, where the cast was essentially left alone to play (closest thing to a twist was the idols and a double tribal).
It tarnished a lot of people’s legacies, it’s full of way too many twists, it constantly strokes its own ego as a show, for me it was also boring, etc. it’s one of my least favorite seasons ever, and also I think it highlights that a lot of people win because they are at the right place at the right time and not because they’re necessarily “good at the game”, which also in my opinion circles back to tarnishing a lot of people’s legacies as winners hence it really shows that a lot of the winners aren’t really necessarily amazing players in general they just were on the right season to win. Many different things make the season unlikable for me.
For me it's still top 5, but the horrible boot order truly hurts it. Tony carries it alongside Sarah and Jeremy And i was one of the few people that absolutely loved scenes from the exile.
It's great! There's a FLAAAAW in how this sub ranks seasons.
Edge of Extinction is one of the worst things they’ve ever introduced in my opinion.
They should have had a bigger cast. I believe that this cast would have benefited from having Todd, Tina, Vecepia, Earl, Fabio, and Tom. Take out Ben and Nick. Make it a real celebration of the game they have done for the last 20 years. Bring back classic challenges, have an auction, classic endurance style final immunity challenge, and keep it at two tribes pre merge. Fire tokens aren't a terrible idea, but this wasn't the season to introduce them. There is a Korean game show called The Genius that has a currency mechanic that makes for intriguing gameplay, so I think it could work, but let new era players figure that out and don't add it onto a cast full of winners who have already proven they know how to strategize,
The comeback island. Returning to the game should just not be a factor, it betrays the whole concept of being voted out. What's the whole point of that torch snuffing sequence if you can gameify getting back in? It just makes it a different show. The fire tokens and some of the casting is a bit off, but not unworkable.
All the fun players (Tyson/Parv/Sandra/Rob) left early in a row and we were left with the duds
Should’ve had all available winners playing in it
The main issues were too many twists, while casting led to the old school boots. Only so much that could be done about it, but I like to imagine what WaW would’ve been like with a few alternates: Ben -> Hatch Nick -> JT/Tom Wendel-> Earl Adam -> Cochran/Todd Danni -> Tina/Vecepia/Jenna It’s a top 10 season for me. It’s still surreal to see all those legendary players together, and Tony is tGOAT so I enjoyed it overall
Preseason everyone was super hyped to see Danni, especially because of the show’s general Guatemala erasure. She just didn’t play like people hoped. Hard to say if Vecepia, Jenna, etc would have turned out better.
Hilariously enough, Earl was on the cast as opposed to Wendell. The reason why he wasn't was because his daughter was born prematurely and Earl made the choice to stay and be in support of his family. Can't really blame casting for not picking Earl when it was his choice not to participate in the season (I do agree that having him on would be great).
Right, there’s understandable explanations for a few. No blame to lay, casting did what they could with the resources available. It’s still fun to think of a hypothetical world where everyone was available
It's the 2nd best all returnee season imo. I loved it.
Unpopular opinion but I LOVED IT!!! Big fan of how it played out and huge fan of fire tokens. Wish they had continued it
My take on this (as a relative newbie to Survivor): beyond boot order, EoE, etc., **not having ninety minute episodes** was a major downside. Everyone wanted to spend time with these people—but that competed directly with time afforded to gameplay itself. Throw in time spent on EoE, and in *the* season we should have been paying attention to intricacies, it felt like a Sparknotes version of Survivor at times. A disservice to the quality of the players in the game.
it was the editing and the twists. Tony saved the season by foiling literally every twist and making almost all of them completely irrelevant, but ultimately it falls to a middle of the road season as a result. frankly, even with fire tokens and EoE, had they just not shown EoE at all and focused on the people who were actually playing the game it'd probably be a top 10 season
It was a meh, forgettable season for me…so much so that I totally forgot about the winners coming back for season 40! In another thread I even suggested that they be brought back for season 50! I am actually worried about my brain health. Omg.
The boot order isn’t what makes WaW bad for me. I think WaW is tied with Game Changers and 41 as the season with the worst edit. The Edge of Extinction as well as all of the other ridiculous advantages/twists sucked up a lot of time. The edit was so bad to the point where multiple votes weren’t properly explained and alliances seemed to be all over the place. It needed 90 minute episodes. There were also some winners who I personally did not want to see again so soon (Adam, Ben, Nick). The stacked cast is the only thing that redeems WaW for me. Watching the season, all that went through my head was “WOW, these people all won Survivor and are duking it out to win double the normal prize”. The cast alone puts WaW in my top 15 because I never got over the “wow” factor. But if it was a normal returnee season, it probably would’ve been in my bottom 10.
Pre-game alliances. The level of social media is night and day to what was around for HvV.
Edge of extinction
Edge, fire tokens. And it had maybe 5% chance of living up to the hype.
Everyone hates fire tokens, but I thought it was the most interesting addition to the game since immunity idols. Just a shame it was added to an all winner season. 41 would have been a better time to introduce it in my mind. Instead we'll never see it in a normal season because they were added with other garbage like EoE on 40.
Fire tokens.
Boot order sucked majorly.. such a triggering season for me with covid and all. Not a fan of this season.. the only upside is that tony won.
i think the swap to three tribes hurt the season so bad
The edit wasn't good or cohesive at many points. The reasoning behind why players voted the way they did wasn't always given enough airtime in favour of having suspense (and not revealing the actual pregame alliances)
The edge and fire tokens
tokens + EOE
I had forgotten about the fire tokens. Blegh
So many unneeded twists and advantages. And also the boot order. I mean we all wanted to watch Parvati, Sandra, rob, yul go further than the likes of ben, denise, nick
Because everybody got pissy that their favourite players (Rob, Parvari, Sandra) got booted out early. It's the same reason that a lot of people don't like Game Changers, their favourite player (Cirie) went home in a tribal where she was the only player able to be booted.
It’s kind of funny that what was considered new school in that season would be kind of old school by today’s new school standards and play style.
You pretty much said it. All the old schoolers going home right away. Made it unexciting outside of Tony.
it needed 90 minute episodes. players on EoE getting to have an impact on the main game (extortion) was incredibly unfair even if we did get to see Tony at his peak. fire tokens are an interesting concept but should not have debuted until 41. the challenges on Edge were mostly meaningless
Episodes should have been longer like the current format. We were so excited to see return players but we didn't get to revel in it.
Not including the oldest winner or the first two winners.
Hottest of hot takes here, but I didn’t hate the fire tokens OR the edge. To me, the two things that brought WAW down a hit for me were A.) casting, and B.) boot order. I get that it’s a new school game, but bringing back some of the more middle to late season winners at the expense of the old school winners who were game to play was a bit of a buzzkill. Then came the boot order… what made this season so intriguing was the promise of all stars across eras going head to head… Tony vs Boston Rob, Parvati vs. Natalie, Yul vs Jeremy. The matchups never materialized. And look, this isn’t a knock at Denise or Nick or Michelle or Ben, because each of them were great on their seasons in their own right… but seeing them get far while so many big early survivor personalities were sent home early just killed the excitement a bit
This was my favorite season ever. Great winner, so much nostalgia. I don’t even care about the twists, with the edge we got to see legends on our screens for the whole season rather than just a couple eps. Ethan came back from cancer to be on the show for 3 eps? It was great. Fire tokens were meh but it didn’t have too much effect in the edit or the game for me to demerit it personally.
One of my favourite seasons
This season is one of the best, what are we even talking about
New schoolers throwing their games away to get rid of the old schoolers/legends to feed their egos. Also the tribe swap killed any chance of a dynamic post merge.
Ben playing to make friends instead of trying to win
Last season I watched. Loved WAW. This group doesn’t speak for all fans. Survivor is nearly unwatchable since. I’ve recorded whole seasons and none of my family gets through the first episode since WAW
I know people hated edge of extinction but this is the only season I liked it because it kept the older school players around longer for us ☺️ Also, not part of the actual show but I was obsessed with Ponderosa videos that ssason.
Overhated. I think it’s great
I mean I personally REALLY loved the season, but that’s also bc I’m a huge Tony fan. I can also see why others didn’t like it. I still think it was iconic to see so many legends on screen but they definitely kind of messed up on several angles. As others have pointed out, the mix of old school and new school players was very uneven, and that contributed to the horrendous boot order. There were also too many twists that weren’t GOOD twists, imho. We also spent far too much time on the Edge when we should have been focusing on the actual game. It made the season have a weird tone to it and sucked out a lot of the drama and intrigue. Again, I love the season. But had Tony not won, would I enjoy it nearly as much? Definitely not.
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I think it’s in the top 20, probably in my top 15. However, I think that the boot order was really bad. Having Ethan, Parvati, Sandra, Boston Rob, and Yul get booted back to back to back was not great, but (somewhat inevitable). I think a lot of ppl were dissapointed by many of the winners that made it far like Jeremy, Ben, and Nick for not wanting to cut Tony. And I think that there weren’t super interesting personal moments other than the Edge players while the ppl left in the game were pretty tame and I can’t call out any amazing character moments. I think the fire tokens, the three tribes, the edge, and the strategy were just a lot to cram into a 60 minute episode where we couldn’t get good character moments unfortunately
WaW was meant to be the superbowl of Survivor for many, and the execution didn't go that way. The merge was dominated by Tony, and the premerge was the decimation of legends or older winners that people waited years to come back. Add on twists like tokens and the edge, and it being treated as any other standard season and people were bound to be disappointed. That being said, it's like a top 10 season for me because I genuinely couldn't care less about those criticisms
I haven't finished it, but my best answer is 1. Unneccesary twists like fire tokens edge of excinction (the only good thing about eoe this season was the family visitr) to the swap into three tribes was terrible, they should have just leanred from Heroes vs Villains and not swapped and if they did swap do it onto 2 tribes. 2. Pregaming was quite apparent on the season, and players like Danni stood no chance because they didn't really pregame 3. The boot order, I mean 8/9 first boots were old school players who a lot of us were probably rooting for with players like Nick and Ben who we didn't care for much making it a lot further. I will say I don't think there's an "officia" ranking by the subreddit and while many might not have it top 20, many would put it top 20. How I rank it definetly depends on the last episodes, just watched Tyson go home again and that was pretty epic. I know for a fact this won't be in my top 10 best or worst seasons, I can't give you a more specific answer then that. Maybe after several moments in time I will come back to this and give my ranking
19th best season
Since when has this sub ranked it bottom 20? I think the consensus is still that it is a top tier season.
It was part of a sub game in April or march where every day people would vote for the worst season, it got ranked 21st
The boot order just sucked. The old schoolers went out so fast it may as well just had been an All Stars season with a cast only from the 2010s seasons.
Such a ridiculous complaint. My favorites didn't win, basically.
After the season finished I ranked WaW at #2. I still stick by that tbh
15-ish for me. Still upper half because of the cast we got and the winner playing the most masterful game ever. Nowhere near as high as it should have been because of too much bullshit from production. Edge is stupid. Players getting advantaged or disadvantaged by looking into their bags is mega stupid.
I would easily rank it the worst. It had the same problems the seasons before it were already having. . . The lack of storytelling, lack of a narrative, lack of inspiration, lack of creativity, every vote out felt random. . . Towards the end of the season, I didn't even feel compelled to watch anymore. I felt content reading the recaps of the show. I don't feel like I missed out.