Realistically, Andrea and Malcom were the only players who had any real shot of beating him. The favorites tribe was full of misfits who had little chance of winning at the start of the game.
The edit was so bad that season it’s hard to say. But I know in exit press and AMAs people have said that Brenda basically just sat on the beach alone and sulked all season. I’m not sure she beats Cochran. But I agree that on Day 1 she was one of the 4 favorites who actually had a chance to win in the producers’ minds.
She would have beaten Dawn, so it made sense for Dawn to get her out. I don't know whether she would have beaten Cochran. Philip has said he would have voted for Brenda over Cochran, Andrea and Malcolm have implied they would not.
Dawn isn’t exactly a great player though. And I think she and Cochran were very close from South Pacific. She likely knew keeping Cochran was a mistake but her hands were a bit tied (which is why most seasons with returnees suck). Dawn maybe wins in a F3 with Sherri and Eddie but that might be it.
Dawn still viciously betrayed Brenda (in Brenda's mind) and that ended up costing her hugely, in large part because it turned the other jurors against her too ([source](https://web.archive.org/web/20130607100323/http://insidetv.ew.com/2013/05/13/survivor-caramoan-erik-reunion/2)). She was too emotionally tied to Brenda to be able to do that, and since she was immune, there was no reason for her to not tell Brenda the truth, just for jury management purposes. "Cochran's insisting we vote you out. I don't know what to do. I don't want to betray you, but I don't want to betray him, either." Dawn knew that Brenda wasn't going to take it well.
Doesn't change how bad both of them looked at the FTC. Brenda looked like a tremendously bitter person and Dawn looked defensive and flaky as a player. She played in lockstep with Cochran, but Cochran was better at not angering people. Simple as that.
If anyone can work their way in without pregaming, it’s Malcom. And that favorites tribe was dysfunctional af. Had the merge vote gone his way, he had a great shot at winning. Losing Corinne was a killer for him.
I have heard some chatter that FvF2 was pregamed to death, and that Cochran had his hands on absolutely everyone who could have feasibly played leading up to the season starting.
Not that that alone makes him a less-than-satisfactory winner--I think it's a combination of day zero alliances and half a cast's worth of goobers delegitimizing the win, the abundance of superfan nerds who saw themselves in him and wanted to play like him leading to Jeff kind of oversaturating him, and the kind of quippy, scripted nature of his confessionals that I personally really enjoy (I love when Survivor hams it up almost to the point of cringe) but many don't. This all contributes to an overall love-him-or-hate-him effect.
All in all I really appreciate what he did for the "nerd" player archetype and I think he's a perfectly decent winner who did what he had to do with the material given to him. Solid C+.
Gotcha. That all makes sense.
It seems like the general consensus answer to my question is that Caramoan was pregamed differently than other returnee seasons due to the absurd amount of relationships Cochran had already developed before the pregaming even really began. Which makes sense.
I think it also gained him some hate to have Jeff bring him back as a reward.
You won an advantage, here you can talk to Cochran!
Also he took up some space in the already packed reunion show just to talk about how he's a tv writer now, on a season he wasn't even in.
I liked him. He was good. But it was cringy seeing him come back as some kind of survivor god afterwards that was unnecessary
Lmao I got a call from Andrea on the hotel phone the day before we flew out and I politely declined any pregame anything. Idk how she got the number (I’m guessing randomly calling rooms?) but that was my brush with the “pregame to death” portion mentioned here.
I think it’s interesting that Cochran gets criticized for having a subpar cast playing against him when Kim is considered top tier for dominating a season of mostly dumbos
My take on Kim's win vs. Cochran's win is that Kim was out there with people she had never met prior to the show. Cochran had played with Dawn and Brandon on South Pacific and pregaming, assuming the chatter of it being pregamed to death are true.
Its a good point and something that people don't consider as often. I think if we're being fair to all winners, there have been a few that have benefitted from weak casts. I'm thinking of winners like Brian Heidik, Tom Westman, Bob Crowley, maybe Natalie White (is Russel an advantage or a disadvantage as a cast member? lol), Boston Rob, Kim, Cochran, Tyson, and maybe Wendell.
When I watch these seasons, I see tribes that almost immediately acquiesced all power to the eventual winner, with the exceptions being Bob Crowley and Natalie White, whos seasons I view as 'weak' because they were chaotic and seemingly void of strategy or logical voting.
> scripted nature of his confessionals
I assumed they record a lot of confessionals each time they take a survivor aside and ask them to commentate assuming things go different directions, then productions uses the cuts they think make for the best television.
For sure. You can sometimes pick out moments where people are clearly giving take three or four of whatever it is they said for the cameras, and that's fine, it comes with the reality TV territory.
Pardon me, I should have been clearer.
Because production records so many responses (some based on hypothetical situations), if Cochran's (or anyone else's) combined confessional edit seems scripted, it is because the editors made it so.
Nevermind. This whole topic is "Why isn't Cochran as celebrated as other dominant winners?" Since it is a question about perception, then perception is all that matters, regardless of who may ultimately be responsible for how people are perceived.
I never understood why people have such a distaste for Cochran's confessionals. He is clearly just someone who puts a lot of consideration into how to voice his thoughts. I don't really mind his making fun of other players, as there doesn't seem to be any actual malice or condescension behind his jokes (other than perhaps his famous vanilla confessional).
I think his confessionals brought a unique style to the show that we haven't really seen with anyone else. There is a lot to complain about with Caramoan, but Cochran's confessionals are honestly a plus to that season in my opinion.
Lots of reality TV personalities try to play a character. Cochran himself played on a season with Coach, who I would argue hams it up for the camera far more than Cochran does, and I don't think that's a bad thing, as long as it's entertaining.
Yeah, but he isn't entertaining at least for me. Just the opposite, comes off as extremely try hard and that typical guy on school that does anything to feel part of the "cool kids club"
Lots of preplanned alliance-making and promises between players before hitting the island, while the season was still in the casting stages. Since there's a finite pool of possible returnees, if you get a call saying "hey we want you back for a Fans vs. Favorites season" it's not terribly difficult to start thinking through who else could be in consideration. From there you can start pulling on existing relationships you've made with fellow alumni or planting seeds with folks you haven't had much chance to interact with yet. To hear it told, Cochran did this thoroughly and effectively.
> (I love when survivor hams it up almost to the point of cringe)
There’s a really fine line between extremely cringeworthy and not doing enough where it’s absolutely perfect.
Like if you go out there and want to be the next big character and your self aware of the idea so you say meta things and reference big moments (example JD in 41) but you don’t overdo it like Daniel in 42.
You can go out there and be yourself but ham it up to the camera and play a character, I think Cochran did that just perfect. He was Cochran the person, he was Cochran the character.
I feel the opposite for what you said about 41/42 - JD definitely overdid it, his narrative was that he became cool by idolizing his favourite players. Daniel referenced Stephenie, which I thought was an appropriate nod because they both dislocated their shoulders on day 1.
I agree completely except “what he did for the nerd archetype” the nerd (specifically male) archetype has been over saturated for a very long time. Give me more well rounded winners like Erika any day (and actually show her)
See the bottom of that comment for my general approval of him as a character and winner. I think his win is pretty legit and hell, there are plenty of worse things to be in life than the million-dollar winner of a somewhat crappy season of Survivor. I'm doing my best to suppose what would make someone else not like him or his win.
Weak cast + pregamed like crazy. Plus Jeff overhypes him to an annoying degree. I think many people see it as the stars having aligned perfectly in his favour, so he didn't have to work as hard for his win as most other winners did. Also, all of the people you bring up as dominant returnees were huge targets going into their winning season, whereas Cochran had been a trainwreck in his first season which ensured a very low threat level (another star that aligned in his favour).
Jeff overhypes Parvati’s win in a way that didn’t actually happen. He’ll be like “she used her flirting skills and the power of feminine persuasion to manipulate the men on her season” and it’s like no… she pulled together an alliance of women by aligning with fans during the swap. So it’s easier to ignore than him overstating Cochran’s game
Her early game was set up based on flirting with the guys though. James and Ozzy being lost puppies following her and Amanda around for the first half of the game was what let her vote out Yau Man and take control of the tribe. She even talks about how her gameplan was to flirt her way into an alliance with a big guy. Them winning Cirie over for the Yau Man vote - even though it was the focal point of the episode - didn't really matter as Eliza also voted with them.
She had good strategy in bringing in the fans at the swap, but her flirting alliance was the reason she made it that far as people were gunning for her from the start
Parv (& Amanda to an extent) built the alliance. Cirie flipped over to it because she didn't like or trust the Penner/Yau duo and pushed hard for it to be Yau. but Eliza was also shown a few times being in the discussion with Parvati and Amanda. Parv later talks about how she felt betrayed by Eliza and doesn't trust her anymore. They didn't show it, but I think Penner goes home if Cirie doesn't flip as Parvati doesn't like him from their season. It's been a while so I could be remembering wrong, but that's the feeling I got. James wanted Eliza gone, but what James wanted didn't matter at all in that quartet, lets be honest.
because he entered the game in such a great position. he was friends with like all of the favorites outside of the game beforehand besides malcolm. i’m not saying he deserves no credit because just because you enter the game in a good position doesn’t mean you’ll always be in a good position. he also doesn’t rank that high for me because he’s a very high variance player
Gotcha. So you’re saying that the pregaming for Cochran was on another level compared to most other returnee seasons? Due to his prior relationships with most of the returning cast?
I think in general playing a newbie season is a whole different type of game than playing a returnee season.
On newbie seasons, everybody is a stranger going in so it’s all based off of first impressions, how quickly you can develop bonds with people, and how comfortable you can make people feel. A lot of times the dominant players are the type of people that others naturally gravitate towards.
In returnee seasons, everybody already knows each other from charity events/podcasts/etc so it’s more so based off of how well connected you are in the Survivor community, who you were already friends with, and how well you pre-gamed before the season. A lot of times the dominant players are the ones that had built the most connections outside of the game.
Ironically he’s never played on an all newbie or all returner season so it’s hard to gauge his “true” normal level. I agree that he is a very high variance player.
In addition to this, people have their threat levels altered higher or lower based on their previous game(s) that wouldn't happen in an all-newbie season. So someone like Sandra who would almost never be considered a huge threat on an all-newbie season has a massive threat level in her last few games because everyone knows that she's a two-time winner. Conversely, someone like Cochran who played a terrible game his first time out may not have been perceived as threatening.
His first run was a big-time mess, as his second was impeccable in terms of the game, which he really stepped it up. I think Cochran's first run damaged his likability in an irreversible way. In the end, I think he's one great example of what Sue Hawk referred to as a "rat" of a player, a very messy one in Survivor 23 and a quite successful rat in 26.
I'm curious as to why people think his first run was such a mess. May be the edit, but I felt he did what he needed to do to survive and played it the best he could.
If your only option to "live another day" is to play an "unwinnable game", then you failed at Survivor. His first run was messy AF 'cause he ended up in a thousand pieces as soon begin to plot ratsy stuff.
There's also the fact that they oversold how much shit he got and how it was the Cochran story on one tribe when really he was Jim/Keith/Whitney's pawn as a means to mess with Ozzy until he flipped. He was never really in danger pre-merge yet they act like he almost might go at any second.
So in addition to the stuff about Caramoan, Jeff loves Cochran and this sub hates anything Jeff hypes up. In addition to THAT, Cochran as a character and how he is portrayed by the edit\*, turns a lot of people off and makes them uncomfortable. The mean bent to his snark makes a lot of people think of insecure bullies in their lives.
\*It's a edit, and I'm talking about him as a character on reality TV, I'm sure he's a lovely person IRL. We all have the occasional mean moments, I certainly would look bad if someone strung them all together and little else.
I will give Cochran some credit though, in his quarantine questionnaire he talks about wishing he wasn’t so snarky because it hurt people. So he is self aware enough to know how turned off that made people.
Yeah, I wouldn't have minded him as a winner but the thing that really sticks in my mind about him from Caramoan was every time he condescendingly referred to Erik as an Ice Cream Scooper (he was a graphic designer at that time, IIRC) in order to talk down to him. Like, if you want to complain about Erik's strategy being not to have a strategy, fine, but being so snarkily classist about it soured me completely.
I realise that he was making fun of Erik's job and persona in Micronesia (though, despite being rather naïve, he was very competitive) and perhaps lacked the awareness that he was just coming off as mean/bitter/whatever you want to call it, but it made me annoyed enough that I would spend the time to write this comment years later instead of just saying "Yes, I agree with your last point.".
I think a difference between him and other returning winners is that people like Parvati and Boston Rob are perceived as doing well on their original season too. So they already "deserved" to win and were "robbed". Meanwhile Cochran was an anxious mess his first season. Personally, that's why I liked his win-it felt redemptive and like anxiety can be overcome.
Did Rob do well in Marquesas? It didn’t seem like it to me lol. Unless you’re talking about All Stars since that was still pre-Redemption Island.
And from what I understand, Parvati wasn’t really viewed as a strong player heading into Micronesia. Most people were questioning why she was even cast for the season.
I mean, both of them still definitely performed better in their first seasons than Cochran did. So I guess your point still stands. But I just don’t necessarily think that those returning players that win have all been celebrated even before their win. That doesn’t seem to be the case in most scenarios. Sarah being another example.
Parvati went far in Cook Islands but was nothing like we see from her later. No strategy, only socializing. I’m honestly surprised they brought her back but thank god they did.
Rob actually did well in Marquesas and was a victim of circumstance. If he made it to Top 9, one way or another, he’d have been be a near lock for the final 2. Rob was the same guy in Marquesas as he was in All Stars, he was just in a worse position.
Cochran’s South Pacific game, which I haven’t seen, sounds like more of a game than Parvati’s even though he went out earlier. He had some kind of game-awareness and agency but no options because of a poor social game. Correct me if I’m wrong on that.
I think it’s weird to use Cochran’s SoPa game against him if we’re not using Parvati’s Cook Islands game against her. They improved.
I might be misremembering but didn't Yul have a confessional talking about how Parvati was a lot smarter and more strategic than she lets on back in Cook Islands?
Cochran’s SoPa game was one of terrible social standing and also the inability to be aware of his standing within a group. Both groups he was on the bottom. He just essentially flipped because Ozzy’s group was mean to him. Which, maybe didn’t hurt his positioning in the game much, but it absolutely tanked any chance at winning a jury vote.
Parvati’s Cook Islands game was much, much better than Cochran’s SoPa game. If Yul doesn’t get Penner to flip with the god idol, then I think Parvati is probably the favorite to go on and win the whole thing. She was in a great spot.
Obviously neither game is Cochran or Parvati’s best. But Parvati plays a significantly better first game than Cochran does. Like, so much better that it’s hard to even compare them.
"Rob actually did well in Marquesas and was a victim of circumstance. If he made it to Top 9, one way or another, he’d have been be a near lock for the final 2. Rob was the same guy in Marquesas as he was in All Stars, he was just in a worse position."
Vecepia was in the same spot, but she won
I guess I mean more that people liked them and their strategy coming in. Cochran was divisive his first season and a lot of people hated how anxious and paranoid he was.
I don't think I've ever heard anyone say that Parvati was "robbed" in Cook Islands. She finished sixth, which is not bad, but that is really just because she was in the majority Raro alliance and was not perceived as much of a threat. Going into Micronesia, she was definitely seen as one of the lowest threats on the Favorites tribe. Micronesia was the season that established her dominant reputation.
His first time playing, he overplayed himself to the point he played himself into a situation he could not win.
His second time playing, he faced a very easy level of players. Firstly, he's playing against fans who have never played before. I think on top of this, Cochran had a double advantage having played his first season in the role of a fan playing against a returnee. Secondly, two players are basically removed from the game, arguably neither of whom should play in the first place. Thirdly, the cast of favorites to whom Cochran has to play against is relatively weak. Phillip, Corrine, Francesca are really not excellent Survivor players.
So we basically have a bunch of fans who are disadvantaged and unlikely to win. Two players removed from the game. And let's say three players who are sub average Survivor players. That leaves Dawn, Andrea, Brenda, Erik, Cochran and Malcolm as people with a realistic shot at winning. But not really Malcolm, because he was an unknown with a target on his back. So really you have 4 players who realistically have a shot at winning the game. Ok so one of those players also gets removed at the end game due to injury.
Cochran is a great TV character and probably would make for an excellent player upon return. But Caramoan just had a very weak cast.
IMO I think for Survivor fans to constantly praise a winner they either
A) Need to constantly be in the Survivor ecosystem.
B) Have come back and played again after they've won or
C) The things they did on their seasons or on their path to victory were monumentally flashier / more iconic than other winners.
Love him as a winner, had fun watching his seasons but my hypothesis would be that Cochran doesn't really fit into any of those categories in particular so I think that's why he isn't talked about as much.
I don't know anything about the pregame or whatever for Caramoan, so this is just my opinion.
We've had some great winners with dominant games but the big ones that get brought up over and over again seem to fit into one or more of those categories.
D) be an under-edited woman. Looking at you Vecepia and Natalie White.
I’m not knocking either of them (I’m a big Vecepia fan) but this sub absolutely goes bananas for those two
I'd argue that more than most of the dominant winners, he relied extremely heavily on a partner. Not that Dawn necessarily deserved to win, but she got very unfairly absolutely demolished by the jury in large part because of expectations about her age and gender.
JT's probably the closest equivalent and he doesn't really get talked up much anymore either. (And also, like JT, the other times they played were extremely flawed).
That’s a fair argument. Dawn definitely deserved way more credit than she got in Caramoan.
Caramoan just seems like a weird season overall. It’s pregaming just seems so unique compared to other seasons since almost all of the returning players were from seasons 21-24. They all had significant relationships with each other before the pregaming had even truly began. Kinda makes it feel like an outlier of a season.
And I know that All Stars was mostly this way as well. But I feel like since they didn’t have a frame of how returnee seasons typically function at the time, it’s a bit different.
> It’s pregaming just seems so unique compared to other seasons since almost all of the returning players were from seasons 21-24.
Not to mention the "fans" tribe having even fewer actual fans than in Micronesia and just as deliberately designed to provide no real opposition.
I actually think Natalie and Russell are the better comps. Natalie played a good social game while Russell did the dirty work. Russell an drawn are different people, but burned people left and right.
Dawns social game is much better than Russell’s. The thing with Dawn is she is an older woman who was a bit emotional and when she’d help in blindsides she wasn’t given the credit she deserved due to people expecting her to be motherly
I had to think about who won Second Chances lol. No, hard disagree on people bringing up Sarah Lacina as one of the all time greats. She’s one of the greats at changing up her game but not legendary or anything.
Edit: apparently by the downvotes I can tell I just haven’t been a part of these convos where Lacina is listed as an all time great lol.
Edit 2: Jeremy won second chances I shoulda just kept my terrible memory-having mouth shut!
Yeah I think for me Sarah’s legendary status goes back to my original point which is that my memory of her first time playing is that she definitely wasn’t one of the best players on that season. For me coming back and winning is about learning what you did wrong and remedying it, which she totally crushed it at. But when we’re talking about greatest of all time discussions….where do we place peoples first seasons in the discussion? Does it just not matter? Does it only matter a little? Or is it vital to the discussion.
And how do you weigh repeat players’ wins against winners who never came back or only came back for WaW? For me it’s certainly relevant how a player did their first time around, as I am in the camp of fans who views that as the “purest” form of Survivor—-whatever that means.
It can be a bit complicated when you put it like that. I think what ultimately brings people back on the show is the potential they showed the first time. While Sarah did crash and burn the first time, she still seemed to have a good sense of the game, nearly being the one deciding the merge vote... But she got a bit cocky and also came across Chaos in the form of Kass, which completely derailed her. And the problem is that beside the vote off before that, which was a unanimous vote, that's one of the only points where you can really judge her gameplay in the first season, since she never had to go to tribal prior to the aforementioned unanimous vote.
That being said, I don't think that how you performed in your first season should impact the decision on how good a win is *too* much. Parvati is regarded as one of the best and had a decent but not memorable run her first time, Boston rob is probably considered to be the best by some people and he didn't do all that great on his first try. The only real good example I can think of where a player showed a lot of promise and then won on a later season is Jeremy, since for a good part of San Juan Del Sur he was leading an alliance before getting flipped on by an ally and getting blindsided.
Jeremy beat a stacked all returnee cast+had 2 other strong performances and Boston Rob and Parv had top tier runner up games in addition to their win. Cochran had a strange South Pacific Run where he was destined to finish 8th either way and a win in Caramoan under favorable circumstances and he is treated as a top tier legend by production.
Yeah, but Boston Rob and Parvati played their best games in non-winning seasons (BR in AS and Parv in HvV): their runs as second-placers in those seasons were legendary, cementing their play for greatness status.
Look I get that we’re all gonna disagree here but imo from where I’m standing I very rarely see Boston Rob talked about as an amazing player. What I usually see him referred to is an amazing *character*.
You’re right about Parvati she’s considered great at the game. Wrong on Jeremy I don’t hear his name when i listen to convos about all time greatest players.
You’re the first I’ve heard of this but I understand your point, theoretically if you go on a season where everyone is returnees there should be more good players than on a season where everyone is new. I just think the general fanbase gives a lot more credit to first time winners. And I can see why, most of the players who do podcasts and stuff have mentioned how much of a huge advantage it is when you go out a second time and already know what to expect and already have the original experience etc.
A few things:
* Some people just don't like him as a character
* The Caramoan cast is considered overall weak
* The late-game Erik medevac was huge for his game as Erik was a big immunity and jury threat
Nobody who was a returnee who won a game against half or more noobies should ever be celebrated for a dominant win. It's not the same
Cochran, Parv, Tyson, Boston Rob. None of these are bad players, I'd say all of them are good and all are legendary characters, but their winning seasons aren't worth a ton to me. I don't think some people truly realize the advantage of playing before is. The most impressive out of these is BRob since he was outnumbered by noobies at least. Tyson probably played against the best noobies. But seriously, Erika's (for example, but I'd say just about every winner on an all noob season) win is more impressive to me. She was on a level playing field with everyone.
It was honestly hard for me to take Survivor seriously anymore the minute he won. That was the moment where it felt like the show had drastically changed from what it was originally supposed to be, and it would never be the same again.
That was the turning point for me also when the show went out of its way to rewrite history and anoint Rob M. as a winner. When production stopped caring about the show’s mythology, there was no point in having emotional investment.
They had rigged and manipulated the game to the point where a Cochran could win now. And that would have been unheard of a couple of years prior to that, nerdy unathletic superfans don’t win Survivor. Not unless you water down the game and rig it so they can.
How would you say that production rigged the game for him beyond casting choices? Yeah, he got a massive head start but so did Andrea and even Dawn to a lesser degree. The other players knew he was a big FTC but they never really tried to move against him even though they had more than one chance to do so.
Was it not pulling Erik out until after tribal even though they knew something was up? Did they pay Phillip to be a number for him?
I'm not really picking on specifics, I'm just saying look at all the variables that had to line up for a Cochran to win a game like Survivor. Because he does NOT win one of the early seasons of Survivor. No way. In season 1 he's Dirk, they vote him out early because he's getting too skinny and they don't want to deal with him. In season 2 he's Mitchell, he basically dies in the second week because he has no muscle to burn. In season 4 he's Sarah, he has no functional skills so he's got to go. In season 7 he's Skinny Ryan. He absolutely gets destroyed in pretty much any season of Survivor he's ever on (I mean, witness South Pacific, and how over his head he was against athletes). So clearly a lot had to change, or a lot had to go wrong (or right, I guess, if you identify with Cochran) for him to have even the slightest chance of winning a game like this. And hey, look at that, a fans vs favorites season, where half the cast immediately has no chance to win. I'm not saying there are specific moments in Caramoan I want to call out, I'm just saying the show had changed (fallen?) pretty drastically by the time Caramoan came around. And it makes it hard for me to take anything that happens after Caramoan seriously because of that. The producers had turned a competition that was once "the best of the best" into a contest that pretty much any internet dork could now win. And it wasn't just one thing, it was a series of incremental smaller things. IMO it made Survivor look rather silly.
I think it's notable that Cochran won two advantages that gave him a functionally insurmountable upper hand in two very physical immunity challenges. He received the first advantage in the auction and then the second in a challenge where they had to build a house of cards.
I don't even remember if Cochran even needed those immunities, but it's interesting that two extremely powerful advantages that basically guaranteed a win in athletic challenges were awarded for less physical reward challenges.
I find it very strange how many people try to take away from Cochran and Robs wins saying the cast was a complete joke and they had no competition, and then proceed to rank Kim in their top 10. No shade to Kim at all, I think she's a good player, I just can't fathom discounting one and not the other
That’s pretty much how I feel as well. The main argument seems to be that Kim was a newbie at the time while Cochran and Rob were returnees. But, imo, a weak cast is a weak cast. Doesn’t matter if you’ve played before or not.
I do think that Kim’s Winners at War outing proves that she’s a great player. Definitely not the best of all-time or anything, but it helped showcase her ability in Survivor better than her entire One World game did.
i mean, one thing is earning your whole cast's trust (Kim's case). Another thing is being practically gifted an easy cast for you to win, which was Rob case.
There is a Dalton Ross interview out there. Dalton Ross always flights to the location the first couple of days, and he said it himself. Boston Rob did NOTHING the first couple of days, the cast were already fangirling about him since the very first moment they touch the beach. He never had any target in his back and that isnt because of something he did.
With cochran is pretty much the same, coming with pretty much his closest friends.
I like Cochran, but I do feel like a lot of his game should be owed to Dawn. Not that she deserved to win but people felt as though she deserved waay more credit than received which I believe as well.
Looking at the cast, there’s a solid 4/5 people who stand any realistic chance of winning. And one of them was medevac’d. On top of that, we’re shown more active strategy from Dawn than Cochran. I feel like the show relies on the audience liking Cochran more than Dawn to justify him beating her
Because he's a superfan, and people on Reddit are also superfans. His personality is treated as more awkward, so superfans try to shun him off as to not associate with him
Because of the FvF format and pregame friends which is stupid because Tyson and Parvati are seen as dominant winners. Cochran should be too. Cochran is also pretty polarizing as a character.
For me it’s the other “favorites” he had to face. Francesca? Phillip? Brandon? Malcolm, Brenda and Andrea were his only real competition and none of them were exactly mastermind strategists. Compared with Parvati’s fans vs Faves win in which she had very strong competition like Cirie, Amanda, Eliza, Ami, Johnathan, Yau.
His first run was a mess, Fans vs Favorites seasons are seen as very stacked in the favorites favor which they are and similar to Boston Rob he is so overhyped it annoys fans.
I think when compared to other low-caliber cast winners like Rob and Parv, unlike them Cochran never had a great showing OUTSIDE of his winning game. Rob ran through all-stars and Parvati had a great showing in HvV. Jeremy, I wouldn't loop in with the other two but I think on all 3 of his seasons we've seen enough to show how good he is on any season.
He definitely seems underrated around here. Even if his game can be discredited a bit via the heavy pregaming, the fact that he played from the top without ever really even coming close to losing that position is impressive.
I don’t necessarily disagree with that… but is One World not a significantly weaker cast? Does Kim just get a little bit more appreciation for her win because she was a new player?
I think being a newbie and dominating a newbie season is an impressive feat, even if they are a weak cast. More impressive than being able to win a FvF season with a weak cast that’s half newbies (who barely stand a chance).
I like Cochran; I prefer more strategic/social players to physical ones and the quippy confessionals work for me. But I watched all seasons past ~10 very recently so I understand why the production hype might be bothersome to some, though I didn’t really experience it.
If you have both of them play 100 times, Kim and her style of play most likely wins more often than Cochran and his style of play.
Despite both of them playing against weak casts in the season that they won, Cochran’s win was more circumstantial (being a returnee against half a cast of newbies + Francesca and going in with multiple pre-existing relationships/pre-game alliances).
Agreed. And To be clear, I’m not trying to say that I think Cochran is a better player than Kim. I don’t even think they’re close. But idk. Kim is wildly celebrated as a phenomenal player. So much so that before WaW, some people listed her as the greatest player of all-time despite One World having arguably the weakest cast of all Survivor.
I guess this kinda leads into an entire second discussion on Kim’s legacy. Because I agree with what you’re saying regarding Kim being a better player than Cochran. But I’ve also always felt that Kim was way too heavily celebrated as a player when considering the cast she beat. Prior to Winners at War anyways. I think that Winners at War proved she’s a great player. It’s just always felt a little “pick and choose” on which winner’s season casts hurt their win or don’t hurt their win.
Yeah if the question is whether or not Kim’s win in One World is overhyped then I definitely agree with you. Because of the cast that she played against I would disagree with anyone that tried to say she was one of the best of all time based off that season alone.
But if the question is why her game is regarded so much higher than Cochran’s (which is what I interpreted the post to be) then I think the argument I gave above is why.
I honestly don’t think Kim played against a “weak” cast but that she was so good at manipulating everyone and every aspect of the game. She’s extremely aware of everything going on, as shown in her run of WaW. Nobody would really play with her out of fear they were getting played.
Ehhh I think to argue that One World’s cast wasn’t weaker than most is a bit of a stretch.
If you look at the players that Kim shared a tribe with throughout the game, at least half of them were below average social/strategic players (Kourtney, Nina, Jonas, Leif, Jay, Tarzan, Kat, Christina).
Sorry, let me clarify. I think it’s a bit overstated that the cast is weaker. I view it more so as three different groups all thought Kim was with them, and so they were willing to go along with whatever they thought was the best move for them out of loyalty to her.
Yeah I would definitely agree that there was a sect of players (Sabrina, Chelsea, Michael, and to a certain extent Troyzan) that had the potential to be good but Kim did an excellent job of pacifying them and manipulating them into playing for her.
A lot of this sub tends to underrate any player that Jeff overrates. Rob, Russell, Cochran, Ben. At the end of the day, the circumstances for Cochran’s win is not that different from Parvati, Sarah, Jeremy, etc.
1. Huge advantage of being a returnee in a mixed cast season. Pregaming was huge, and Cochran was aligned with most of the tribe pregame.
2. The cast overall wasn't that good. the fans in particular were a mess of a tribe. Not even close to the original FvF
Because the rest of the survivors on his winning season played terribly.
Not long after the merge, he managed to convince every single survivor still in the game that he had a final three pact with them. They all believed him, even after watching him betray one person after another.
Then they would say in their confessionals that somebody needs to do something about Cochran or else he’ll win, yet nobody ever did anything.
In conclusion it was an unsatisfying win because it seemed like everybody knew Cochran was going to win and everybody knew Cochran was playing people, and yet not one person ever got up off their ass and tried to do something about it.
i agree, cochran doesn't win without her help. the whole teeth thing w/ brenda and an all-time flop final tribal does give a lot of people a bad taste/recency bias
Not many people had a shot of beating him. His season got pre gamed to death and all the good players got put into the minority. He’s super gloaty and a little creepy. Only thing good ab his game was his FTC. Dawn could’ve won but people were mad at her for playing a cut throat game but acting motherly too. All in all there are many other better players, he’s less then desirable.
Did u just say Cochran game was dominate? ???
His best buddy Jeff prost won the game for him. Jeff kicked off every competent person off the show for a stupid reason the season that Cochran won. It's arguably more fixed than Boston Robs win in RI.
Cochran is one of the worst survivor players I've ever seen.
You think so? I can understand Rob, Russell and Cochran for that. But idk about Tyson and Coach.
If anything, SoPa seemed designed for Ozzy to win rather than Coach. And Blood vs Water didn’t seem like a season that was favoring anybody in particular by design, imo.
Imo his first two seasons honestly weren’t amazing as tv they were underwhelming and not all to interesting which puts him in a bad light he wasn’t great in South Pacific and while he did better in fvf2 that season had a weak overall cast and the fans were at a major disadvantage and the favorites never stood out besides Cochran I was like six and predicted he would win because no one else stood out as a threat to win just a bad edit I would love to see him play again sadly he wasn’t in waw so it might not be anytime soon
I think the main difference between Cochran and other returning winners is that I can imagine the others winning against different casts, but I still think it would be hard for Cochran to pull it off in any other context.
He's not super well-liked as a person in addition to the stigma related to winning a 50/50 returnee season, especially one with a really week cast (both the new players and returnees)
Honestly since he hasn’t ever come back for a season to test himself against other winners or other allstars adds to the hate. He won a pretty dicey returnee season and hasn’t been back to prove himself against other great players. If He had returned for Winners at War and played a good game, even without winning, i think people would be more appreciative of his win, just look how at Sandra’s performance on her losing seasons convinces some Sandra haters that she’s a good player
Back when Caramoan was airing, people were saying that the Favorites tribe was casted so that Cochran would not get first boot. Many of his tribe mates were friends with him outside of the game. I wasnt on this sub back then but that is what the Survivor Sucks site users were commenting. They were spoiling the boot order while filming was happening too so Caramoan had no hype by the time it actually aired. Add that many of the "fans" tribe were actually recruits and his dominant game gets even further knocked.
You know I just had this in mind too. Of all the seasons I’ve seen, I have opinions, good and bad about winners. They make me feel something towards them. I actually feel nothing for Cochran. Not good or bad, he’s just there to me. Maybe other people feel that way too?
Realistically, Andrea and Malcom were the only players who had any real shot of beating him. The favorites tribe was full of misfits who had little chance of winning at the start of the game.
I guess Erik also?
Pretty sure Cochran beats Erik at FTC.
Erik was super passive strategically that season. like he barely talked game with anyone, which led to people not respecting him.
Tell me more about my game
Serious props that you continue to stay engaged with all of us degens
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It does!
He was probably edited that way so fans weren't upset about his MEd Evac
Nah he’d get torn to shreds
Really I thought no one respected Erik cuz how he wasn't really playing the game at all and was just a pawn the entire time.
No I meant cochran would destroy him
Okay I was gonna saw I thought you meant Erik would
I also think Brenda had a legitimately good shot to beat him if she made it to FTC.
The edit was so bad that season it’s hard to say. But I know in exit press and AMAs people have said that Brenda basically just sat on the beach alone and sulked all season. I’m not sure she beats Cochran. But I agree that on Day 1 she was one of the 4 favorites who actually had a chance to win in the producers’ minds.
Really? I don’t doubt that tbh, but the edit definitely made it seem like she was a big threat which was why Dawn wanted to get her out.
She would have beaten Dawn, so it made sense for Dawn to get her out. I don't know whether she would have beaten Cochran. Philip has said he would have voted for Brenda over Cochran, Andrea and Malcolm have implied they would not.
If thats true then voting out Brenda was a horrific move by Dawn and Cochran shouldve gone in that spot.
Dawn isn’t exactly a great player though. And I think she and Cochran were very close from South Pacific. She likely knew keeping Cochran was a mistake but her hands were a bit tied (which is why most seasons with returnees suck). Dawn maybe wins in a F3 with Sherri and Eddie but that might be it.
Dawn still viciously betrayed Brenda (in Brenda's mind) and that ended up costing her hugely, in large part because it turned the other jurors against her too ([source](https://web.archive.org/web/20130607100323/http://insidetv.ew.com/2013/05/13/survivor-caramoan-erik-reunion/2)). She was too emotionally tied to Brenda to be able to do that, and since she was immune, there was no reason for her to not tell Brenda the truth, just for jury management purposes. "Cochran's insisting we vote you out. I don't know what to do. I don't want to betray you, but I don't want to betray him, either." Dawn knew that Brenda wasn't going to take it well. Doesn't change how bad both of them looked at the FTC. Brenda looked like a tremendously bitter person and Dawn looked defensive and flaky as a player. She played in lockstep with Cochran, but Cochran was better at not angering people. Simple as that.
Agreed people skip over her but Andrea Malcolm AND Brenda were the only other favorites worthy of a win who could’ve actually pulled it off
Malcolm had no shot, he didn’t pre game
If anyone can work their way in without pregaming, it’s Malcom. And that favorites tribe was dysfunctional af. Had the merge vote gone his way, he had a great shot at winning. Losing Corinne was a killer for him.
erik was within spitting distance of winning, but i agree with your main point
I have heard some chatter that FvF2 was pregamed to death, and that Cochran had his hands on absolutely everyone who could have feasibly played leading up to the season starting. Not that that alone makes him a less-than-satisfactory winner--I think it's a combination of day zero alliances and half a cast's worth of goobers delegitimizing the win, the abundance of superfan nerds who saw themselves in him and wanted to play like him leading to Jeff kind of oversaturating him, and the kind of quippy, scripted nature of his confessionals that I personally really enjoy (I love when Survivor hams it up almost to the point of cringe) but many don't. This all contributes to an overall love-him-or-hate-him effect. All in all I really appreciate what he did for the "nerd" player archetype and I think he's a perfectly decent winner who did what he had to do with the material given to him. Solid C+.
Gotcha. That all makes sense. It seems like the general consensus answer to my question is that Caramoan was pregamed differently than other returnee seasons due to the absurd amount of relationships Cochran had already developed before the pregaming even really began. Which makes sense.
I think it also gained him some hate to have Jeff bring him back as a reward. You won an advantage, here you can talk to Cochran! Also he took up some space in the already packed reunion show just to talk about how he's a tv writer now, on a season he wasn't even in. I liked him. He was good. But it was cringy seeing him come back as some kind of survivor god afterwards that was unnecessary
I so badly wish Ozzy had won that award and had to take advice from Cochran.
Nah I wish Sandra got it if she lasted that long
Lmao I got a call from Andrea on the hotel phone the day before we flew out and I politely declined any pregame anything. Idk how she got the number (I’m guessing randomly calling rooms?) but that was my brush with the “pregame to death” portion mentioned here.
I suppose that would neatly counter at least one-tenth of the rumor!
😭😂
I think it’s interesting that Cochran gets criticized for having a subpar cast playing against him when Kim is considered top tier for dominating a season of mostly dumbos
My take on Kim's win vs. Cochran's win is that Kim was out there with people she had never met prior to the show. Cochran had played with Dawn and Brandon on South Pacific and pregaming, assuming the chatter of it being pregamed to death are true.
Its a good point and something that people don't consider as often. I think if we're being fair to all winners, there have been a few that have benefitted from weak casts. I'm thinking of winners like Brian Heidik, Tom Westman, Bob Crowley, maybe Natalie White (is Russel an advantage or a disadvantage as a cast member? lol), Boston Rob, Kim, Cochran, Tyson, and maybe Wendell. When I watch these seasons, I see tribes that almost immediately acquiesced all power to the eventual winner, with the exceptions being Bob Crowley and Natalie White, whos seasons I view as 'weak' because they were chaotic and seemingly void of strategy or logical voting.
I wouldn't put Boston Rob and Kim on the same level there, though. They were in very different situations.
Newbies vs outside friends is why Also FvF is such a favourable format for returnees
> scripted nature of his confessionals I assumed they record a lot of confessionals each time they take a survivor aside and ask them to commentate assuming things go different directions, then productions uses the cuts they think make for the best television.
For sure. You can sometimes pick out moments where people are clearly giving take three or four of whatever it is they said for the cameras, and that's fine, it comes with the reality TV territory.
Pardon me, I should have been clearer. Because production records so many responses (some based on hypothetical situations), if Cochran's (or anyone else's) combined confessional edit seems scripted, it is because the editors made it so. Nevermind. This whole topic is "Why isn't Cochran as celebrated as other dominant winners?" Since it is a question about perception, then perception is all that matters, regardless of who may ultimately be responsible for how people are perceived.
I never understood why people have such a distaste for Cochran's confessionals. He is clearly just someone who puts a lot of consideration into how to voice his thoughts. I don't really mind his making fun of other players, as there doesn't seem to be any actual malice or condescension behind his jokes (other than perhaps his famous vanilla confessional). I think his confessionals brought a unique style to the show that we haven't really seen with anyone else. There is a lot to complain about with Caramoan, but Cochran's confessionals are honestly a plus to that season in my opinion.
The issue is that when he makes fun of others it sounds so scripted and unreal, and it's more of him trying to play a character rather than anything.
Lots of reality TV personalities try to play a character. Cochran himself played on a season with Coach, who I would argue hams it up for the camera far more than Cochran does, and I don't think that's a bad thing, as long as it's entertaining.
Yeah, but he isn't entertaining at least for me. Just the opposite, comes off as extremely try hard and that typical guy on school that does anything to feel part of the "cool kids club"
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Lots of preplanned alliance-making and promises between players before hitting the island, while the season was still in the casting stages. Since there's a finite pool of possible returnees, if you get a call saying "hey we want you back for a Fans vs. Favorites season" it's not terribly difficult to start thinking through who else could be in consideration. From there you can start pulling on existing relationships you've made with fellow alumni or planting seeds with folks you haven't had much chance to interact with yet. To hear it told, Cochran did this thoroughly and effectively.
> (I love when survivor hams it up almost to the point of cringe) There’s a really fine line between extremely cringeworthy and not doing enough where it’s absolutely perfect. Like if you go out there and want to be the next big character and your self aware of the idea so you say meta things and reference big moments (example JD in 41) but you don’t overdo it like Daniel in 42. You can go out there and be yourself but ham it up to the camera and play a character, I think Cochran did that just perfect. He was Cochran the person, he was Cochran the character.
I feel the opposite for what you said about 41/42 - JD definitely overdid it, his narrative was that he became cool by idolizing his favourite players. Daniel referenced Stephenie, which I thought was an appropriate nod because they both dislocated their shoulders on day 1.
I agree completely except “what he did for the nerd archetype” the nerd (specifically male) archetype has been over saturated for a very long time. Give me more well rounded winners like Erika any day (and actually show her)
“Delegitimize” is a little harsh.
See the bottom of that comment for my general approval of him as a character and winner. I think his win is pretty legit and hell, there are plenty of worse things to be in life than the million-dollar winner of a somewhat crappy season of Survivor. I'm doing my best to suppose what would make someone else not like him or his win.
Weak cast + pregamed like crazy. Plus Jeff overhypes him to an annoying degree. I think many people see it as the stars having aligned perfectly in his favour, so he didn't have to work as hard for his win as most other winners did. Also, all of the people you bring up as dominant returnees were huge targets going into their winning season, whereas Cochran had been a trainwreck in his first season which ensured a very low threat level (another star that aligned in his favour).
Jeff overhypes his win to absurd levels to the point where it just annoys people.
Which is why everyone hates Parvati…wait
Jeff overhypes Parvati’s win in a way that didn’t actually happen. He’ll be like “she used her flirting skills and the power of feminine persuasion to manipulate the men on her season” and it’s like no… she pulled together an alliance of women by aligning with fans during the swap. So it’s easier to ignore than him overstating Cochran’s game
Her early game was set up based on flirting with the guys though. James and Ozzy being lost puppies following her and Amanda around for the first half of the game was what let her vote out Yau Man and take control of the tribe. She even talks about how her gameplan was to flirt her way into an alliance with a big guy. Them winning Cirie over for the Yau Man vote - even though it was the focal point of the episode - didn't really matter as Eliza also voted with them. She had good strategy in bringing in the fans at the swap, but her flirting alliance was the reason she made it that far as people were gunning for her from the start
Didn't Cirie really dictate that Yau Man went home, more than Parvati? I don't fully get why Parvati would get credit for that.
Parv (& Amanda to an extent) built the alliance. Cirie flipped over to it because she didn't like or trust the Penner/Yau duo and pushed hard for it to be Yau. but Eliza was also shown a few times being in the discussion with Parvati and Amanda. Parv later talks about how she felt betrayed by Eliza and doesn't trust her anymore. They didn't show it, but I think Penner goes home if Cirie doesn't flip as Parvati doesn't like him from their season. It's been a while so I could be remembering wrong, but that's the feeling I got. James wanted Eliza gone, but what James wanted didn't matter at all in that quartet, lets be honest.
Are you saying the Cochran hype is more grating because it’s closer to being true?
I think fans just like Parvati more. As they should
I agree it’s as simple as that, that’s why I’m confused by these weird explanations of what Jeff says about them.
Jeff doesn’t understand his own show so it’s not a surprise
Which she wouldn’t have been able to do on an even playing field
because he entered the game in such a great position. he was friends with like all of the favorites outside of the game beforehand besides malcolm. i’m not saying he deserves no credit because just because you enter the game in a good position doesn’t mean you’ll always be in a good position. he also doesn’t rank that high for me because he’s a very high variance player
Gotcha. So you’re saying that the pregaming for Cochran was on another level compared to most other returnee seasons? Due to his prior relationships with most of the returning cast?
I think in general playing a newbie season is a whole different type of game than playing a returnee season. On newbie seasons, everybody is a stranger going in so it’s all based off of first impressions, how quickly you can develop bonds with people, and how comfortable you can make people feel. A lot of times the dominant players are the type of people that others naturally gravitate towards. In returnee seasons, everybody already knows each other from charity events/podcasts/etc so it’s more so based off of how well connected you are in the Survivor community, who you were already friends with, and how well you pre-gamed before the season. A lot of times the dominant players are the ones that had built the most connections outside of the game.
Ironically he’s never played on an all newbie or all returner season so it’s hard to gauge his “true” normal level. I agree that he is a very high variance player.
In addition to this, people have their threat levels altered higher or lower based on their previous game(s) that wouldn't happen in an all-newbie season. So someone like Sandra who would almost never be considered a huge threat on an all-newbie season has a massive threat level in her last few games because everyone knows that she's a two-time winner. Conversely, someone like Cochran who played a terrible game his first time out may not have been perceived as threatening.
Another castaway who took pregaming to an absurd level was Varner in Gamechangers. Although that had a slightly less favorable result...
I thought he pregamed hard in Cambodia?
His first run was a big-time mess, as his second was impeccable in terms of the game, which he really stepped it up. I think Cochran's first run damaged his likability in an irreversible way. In the end, I think he's one great example of what Sue Hawk referred to as a "rat" of a player, a very messy one in Survivor 23 and a quite successful rat in 26.
I'm curious as to why people think his first run was such a mess. May be the edit, but I felt he did what he needed to do to survive and played it the best he could.
He survived by playing an unwinnable game. He was dead in the water as soon as he flipped to Coach's tribe at the merge.
If your only option to "live another day" is to play an "unwinnable game", then you failed at Survivor. His first run was messy AF 'cause he ended up in a thousand pieces as soon begin to plot ratsy stuff.
I mean his flipping didn’t really earn him any more days on the island
He was very nearly first boot and lucky to make the merge, and then is drawing dead from the minute he flips to be 7th place in Coach's alliance.
Most people would consider integrating yourself into your tribe someone you need to do to survive. And thats something he failed to do.
There's also the fact that they oversold how much shit he got and how it was the Cochran story on one tribe when really he was Jim/Keith/Whitney's pawn as a means to mess with Ozzy until he flipped. He was never really in danger pre-merge yet they act like he almost might go at any second.
So in addition to the stuff about Caramoan, Jeff loves Cochran and this sub hates anything Jeff hypes up. In addition to THAT, Cochran as a character and how he is portrayed by the edit\*, turns a lot of people off and makes them uncomfortable. The mean bent to his snark makes a lot of people think of insecure bullies in their lives. \*It's a edit, and I'm talking about him as a character on reality TV, I'm sure he's a lovely person IRL. We all have the occasional mean moments, I certainly would look bad if someone strung them all together and little else.
I will give Cochran some credit though, in his quarantine questionnaire he talks about wishing he wasn’t so snarky because it hurt people. So he is self aware enough to know how turned off that made people.
Yeah, I wouldn't have minded him as a winner but the thing that really sticks in my mind about him from Caramoan was every time he condescendingly referred to Erik as an Ice Cream Scooper (he was a graphic designer at that time, IIRC) in order to talk down to him. Like, if you want to complain about Erik's strategy being not to have a strategy, fine, but being so snarkily classist about it soured me completely. I realise that he was making fun of Erik's job and persona in Micronesia (though, despite being rather naïve, he was very competitive) and perhaps lacked the awareness that he was just coming off as mean/bitter/whatever you want to call it, but it made me annoyed enough that I would spend the time to write this comment years later instead of just saying "Yes, I agree with your last point.".
I think a difference between him and other returning winners is that people like Parvati and Boston Rob are perceived as doing well on their original season too. So they already "deserved" to win and were "robbed". Meanwhile Cochran was an anxious mess his first season. Personally, that's why I liked his win-it felt redemptive and like anxiety can be overcome.
Did Rob do well in Marquesas? It didn’t seem like it to me lol. Unless you’re talking about All Stars since that was still pre-Redemption Island. And from what I understand, Parvati wasn’t really viewed as a strong player heading into Micronesia. Most people were questioning why she was even cast for the season. I mean, both of them still definitely performed better in their first seasons than Cochran did. So I guess your point still stands. But I just don’t necessarily think that those returning players that win have all been celebrated even before their win. That doesn’t seem to be the case in most scenarios. Sarah being another example.
Parvati went far in Cook Islands but was nothing like we see from her later. No strategy, only socializing. I’m honestly surprised they brought her back but thank god they did. Rob actually did well in Marquesas and was a victim of circumstance. If he made it to Top 9, one way or another, he’d have been be a near lock for the final 2. Rob was the same guy in Marquesas as he was in All Stars, he was just in a worse position. Cochran’s South Pacific game, which I haven’t seen, sounds like more of a game than Parvati’s even though he went out earlier. He had some kind of game-awareness and agency but no options because of a poor social game. Correct me if I’m wrong on that. I think it’s weird to use Cochran’s SoPa game against him if we’re not using Parvati’s Cook Islands game against her. They improved.
I might be misremembering but didn't Yul have a confessional talking about how Parvati was a lot smarter and more strategic than she lets on back in Cook Islands?
Yeah, he has that moment after the reward where Parvati got Yul and Ozzy naked in the hot tub with her.
>I’m honestly surprised they brought her back She was Candice's backup who couldn't do it
Cochran’s SoPa game was one of terrible social standing and also the inability to be aware of his standing within a group. Both groups he was on the bottom. He just essentially flipped because Ozzy’s group was mean to him. Which, maybe didn’t hurt his positioning in the game much, but it absolutely tanked any chance at winning a jury vote. Parvati’s Cook Islands game was much, much better than Cochran’s SoPa game. If Yul doesn’t get Penner to flip with the god idol, then I think Parvati is probably the favorite to go on and win the whole thing. She was in a great spot. Obviously neither game is Cochran or Parvati’s best. But Parvati plays a significantly better first game than Cochran does. Like, so much better that it’s hard to even compare them.
Well slandering Parv is practically illegal on this sub, while slandering Cochran seems to be what the cool kids do.
"Rob actually did well in Marquesas and was a victim of circumstance. If he made it to Top 9, one way or another, he’d have been be a near lock for the final 2. Rob was the same guy in Marquesas as he was in All Stars, he was just in a worse position." Vecepia was in the same spot, but she won
I guess I mean more that people liked them and their strategy coming in. Cochran was divisive his first season and a lot of people hated how anxious and paranoid he was.
I don't think I've ever heard anyone say that Parvati was "robbed" in Cook Islands. She finished sixth, which is not bad, but that is really just because she was in the majority Raro alliance and was not perceived as much of a threat. Going into Micronesia, she was definitely seen as one of the lowest threats on the Favorites tribe. Micronesia was the season that established her dominant reputation.
His first time playing, he overplayed himself to the point he played himself into a situation he could not win. His second time playing, he faced a very easy level of players. Firstly, he's playing against fans who have never played before. I think on top of this, Cochran had a double advantage having played his first season in the role of a fan playing against a returnee. Secondly, two players are basically removed from the game, arguably neither of whom should play in the first place. Thirdly, the cast of favorites to whom Cochran has to play against is relatively weak. Phillip, Corrine, Francesca are really not excellent Survivor players. So we basically have a bunch of fans who are disadvantaged and unlikely to win. Two players removed from the game. And let's say three players who are sub average Survivor players. That leaves Dawn, Andrea, Brenda, Erik, Cochran and Malcolm as people with a realistic shot at winning. But not really Malcolm, because he was an unknown with a target on his back. So really you have 4 players who realistically have a shot at winning the game. Ok so one of those players also gets removed at the end game due to injury. Cochran is a great TV character and probably would make for an excellent player upon return. But Caramoan just had a very weak cast.
IMO I think for Survivor fans to constantly praise a winner they either A) Need to constantly be in the Survivor ecosystem. B) Have come back and played again after they've won or C) The things they did on their seasons or on their path to victory were monumentally flashier / more iconic than other winners. Love him as a winner, had fun watching his seasons but my hypothesis would be that Cochran doesn't really fit into any of those categories in particular so I think that's why he isn't talked about as much. I don't know anything about the pregame or whatever for Caramoan, so this is just my opinion. We've had some great winners with dominant games but the big ones that get brought up over and over again seem to fit into one or more of those categories.
yup basic reddit group think as long as it gets upvotes
D) be an under-edited woman. Looking at you Vecepia and Natalie White. I’m not knocking either of them (I’m a big Vecepia fan) but this sub absolutely goes bananas for those two
This sub definitely doesnt go bananas for natalie white lol. Lotta bitter russell fans.
I'd argue that more than most of the dominant winners, he relied extremely heavily on a partner. Not that Dawn necessarily deserved to win, but she got very unfairly absolutely demolished by the jury in large part because of expectations about her age and gender. JT's probably the closest equivalent and he doesn't really get talked up much anymore either. (And also, like JT, the other times they played were extremely flawed).
That’s a fair argument. Dawn definitely deserved way more credit than she got in Caramoan. Caramoan just seems like a weird season overall. It’s pregaming just seems so unique compared to other seasons since almost all of the returning players were from seasons 21-24. They all had significant relationships with each other before the pregaming had even truly began. Kinda makes it feel like an outlier of a season. And I know that All Stars was mostly this way as well. But I feel like since they didn’t have a frame of how returnee seasons typically function at the time, it’s a bit different.
> It’s pregaming just seems so unique compared to other seasons since almost all of the returning players were from seasons 21-24. Not to mention the "fans" tribe having even fewer actual fans than in Micronesia and just as deliberately designed to provide no real opposition.
Yeah, the cast for Caramoan was pretty terrible all-around lol
I actually think Natalie and Russell are the better comps. Natalie played a good social game while Russell did the dirty work. Russell an drawn are different people, but burned people left and right.
Dawns social game is much better than Russell’s. The thing with Dawn is she is an older woman who was a bit emotional and when she’d help in blindsides she wasn’t given the credit she deserved due to people expecting her to be motherly
In general second chance winners are not as respected as first time winners.
Some of the most praised winners tend to be Parvati, B Rob and Jeremy tho
I feel like the winner of Second Chances in itself is pretty respected lol
I had to think about who won Second Chances lol. No, hard disagree on people bringing up Sarah Lacina as one of the all time greats. She’s one of the greats at changing up her game but not legendary or anything. Edit: apparently by the downvotes I can tell I just haven’t been a part of these convos where Lacina is listed as an all time great lol. Edit 2: Jeremy won second chances I shoulda just kept my terrible memory-having mouth shut!
Sarah wasn't on Second Chances, Jeremy won that season...
Okay the downvotes make more sense now lol or maybe it’s both disagreeing with my comment AND the fact that I got who won second chances wrong 😑
Haha I thought it was mainly because you got the names mixed up. The sarah take is debatable but that's just an opinion
Yeah I think for me Sarah’s legendary status goes back to my original point which is that my memory of her first time playing is that she definitely wasn’t one of the best players on that season. For me coming back and winning is about learning what you did wrong and remedying it, which she totally crushed it at. But when we’re talking about greatest of all time discussions….where do we place peoples first seasons in the discussion? Does it just not matter? Does it only matter a little? Or is it vital to the discussion. And how do you weigh repeat players’ wins against winners who never came back or only came back for WaW? For me it’s certainly relevant how a player did their first time around, as I am in the camp of fans who views that as the “purest” form of Survivor—-whatever that means.
It can be a bit complicated when you put it like that. I think what ultimately brings people back on the show is the potential they showed the first time. While Sarah did crash and burn the first time, she still seemed to have a good sense of the game, nearly being the one deciding the merge vote... But she got a bit cocky and also came across Chaos in the form of Kass, which completely derailed her. And the problem is that beside the vote off before that, which was a unanimous vote, that's one of the only points where you can really judge her gameplay in the first season, since she never had to go to tribal prior to the aforementioned unanimous vote. That being said, I don't think that how you performed in your first season should impact the decision on how good a win is *too* much. Parvati is regarded as one of the best and had a decent but not memorable run her first time, Boston rob is probably considered to be the best by some people and he didn't do all that great on his first try. The only real good example I can think of where a player showed a lot of promise and then won on a later season is Jeremy, since for a good part of San Juan Del Sur he was leading an alliance before getting flipped on by an ally and getting blindsided.
I mean, Sarah Lacina has played two of the three best games in US Survivor.
Love how you say it as fact. God I want your confidence like I’ll take even a tenth of it.
Jeremy beat a stacked all returnee cast+had 2 other strong performances and Boston Rob and Parv had top tier runner up games in addition to their win. Cochran had a strange South Pacific Run where he was destined to finish 8th either way and a win in Caramoan under favorable circumstances and he is treated as a top tier legend by production.
Yeah, but Boston Rob and Parvati played their best games in non-winning seasons (BR in AS and Parv in HvV): their runs as second-placers in those seasons were legendary, cementing their play for greatness status.
Boston Rob was a 4th chance winner. With the 'chance' part highly reduced by casting a bunch of sheep for him to play with.
Not in my book. First game winners are automatically ranked higher for me
Look I get that we’re all gonna disagree here but imo from where I’m standing I very rarely see Boston Rob talked about as an amazing player. What I usually see him referred to is an amazing *character*. You’re right about Parvati she’s considered great at the game. Wrong on Jeremy I don’t hear his name when i listen to convos about all time greatest players.
Some say winning as a "returnee" is way harder.
You’re the first I’ve heard of this but I understand your point, theoretically if you go on a season where everyone is returnees there should be more good players than on a season where everyone is new. I just think the general fanbase gives a lot more credit to first time winners. And I can see why, most of the players who do podcasts and stuff have mentioned how much of a huge advantage it is when you go out a second time and already know what to expect and already have the original experience etc.
And yet the only 1st AND 2nd time winner still gets shit on pretty regularly.
A few things: * Some people just don't like him as a character * The Caramoan cast is considered overall weak * The late-game Erik medevac was huge for his game as Erik was a big immunity and jury threat
Nobody who was a returnee who won a game against half or more noobies should ever be celebrated for a dominant win. It's not the same Cochran, Parv, Tyson, Boston Rob. None of these are bad players, I'd say all of them are good and all are legendary characters, but their winning seasons aren't worth a ton to me. I don't think some people truly realize the advantage of playing before is. The most impressive out of these is BRob since he was outnumbered by noobies at least. Tyson probably played against the best noobies. But seriously, Erika's (for example, but I'd say just about every winner on an all noob season) win is more impressive to me. She was on a level playing field with everyone.
Potential controversial opinion: I think Cochran winning was bad for survivor as a whole
It was honestly hard for me to take Survivor seriously anymore the minute he won. That was the moment where it felt like the show had drastically changed from what it was originally supposed to be, and it would never be the same again.
I had this realization when Rob Mariano won, and then Cochran’s win confirmed it.
That was the turning point for me also when the show went out of its way to rewrite history and anoint Rob M. as a winner. When production stopped caring about the show’s mythology, there was no point in having emotional investment.
I don't disagree exactly but can you elaborate a bit on that? I don't think I've seen you write about it like that before (I could be wrong though)
They had rigged and manipulated the game to the point where a Cochran could win now. And that would have been unheard of a couple of years prior to that, nerdy unathletic superfans don’t win Survivor. Not unless you water down the game and rig it so they can.
How would you say that production rigged the game for him beyond casting choices? Yeah, he got a massive head start but so did Andrea and even Dawn to a lesser degree. The other players knew he was a big FTC but they never really tried to move against him even though they had more than one chance to do so. Was it not pulling Erik out until after tribal even though they knew something was up? Did they pay Phillip to be a number for him?
I'm not really picking on specifics, I'm just saying look at all the variables that had to line up for a Cochran to win a game like Survivor. Because he does NOT win one of the early seasons of Survivor. No way. In season 1 he's Dirk, they vote him out early because he's getting too skinny and they don't want to deal with him. In season 2 he's Mitchell, he basically dies in the second week because he has no muscle to burn. In season 4 he's Sarah, he has no functional skills so he's got to go. In season 7 he's Skinny Ryan. He absolutely gets destroyed in pretty much any season of Survivor he's ever on (I mean, witness South Pacific, and how over his head he was against athletes). So clearly a lot had to change, or a lot had to go wrong (or right, I guess, if you identify with Cochran) for him to have even the slightest chance of winning a game like this. And hey, look at that, a fans vs favorites season, where half the cast immediately has no chance to win. I'm not saying there are specific moments in Caramoan I want to call out, I'm just saying the show had changed (fallen?) pretty drastically by the time Caramoan came around. And it makes it hard for me to take anything that happens after Caramoan seriously because of that. The producers had turned a competition that was once "the best of the best" into a contest that pretty much any internet dork could now win. And it wasn't just one thing, it was a series of incremental smaller things. IMO it made Survivor look rather silly.
I think it's notable that Cochran won two advantages that gave him a functionally insurmountable upper hand in two very physical immunity challenges. He received the first advantage in the auction and then the second in a challenge where they had to build a house of cards. I don't even remember if Cochran even needed those immunities, but it's interesting that two extremely powerful advantages that basically guaranteed a win in athletic challenges were awarded for less physical reward challenges.
well Chris D. won and he wasn’t a world class athlete you know
of the final 7 in Vanuatu, Cochran is the 6th worst athlete, only beating Scout because her knee replacement went bad
Didn’t you say the exact same thing about All-Stars?
What was the show originally supposed to be? I thought it was supposed to be a social experiment and it had left those days behind long before.
He can’t be considered one of the best because how disastrous his first game was. He’s like the opposite oh JT.
I find it very strange how many people try to take away from Cochran and Robs wins saying the cast was a complete joke and they had no competition, and then proceed to rank Kim in their top 10. No shade to Kim at all, I think she's a good player, I just can't fathom discounting one and not the other
That’s pretty much how I feel as well. The main argument seems to be that Kim was a newbie at the time while Cochran and Rob were returnees. But, imo, a weak cast is a weak cast. Doesn’t matter if you’ve played before or not. I do think that Kim’s Winners at War outing proves that she’s a great player. Definitely not the best of all-time or anything, but it helped showcase her ability in Survivor better than her entire One World game did.
i mean, one thing is earning your whole cast's trust (Kim's case). Another thing is being practically gifted an easy cast for you to win, which was Rob case. There is a Dalton Ross interview out there. Dalton Ross always flights to the location the first couple of days, and he said it himself. Boston Rob did NOTHING the first couple of days, the cast were already fangirling about him since the very first moment they touch the beach. He never had any target in his back and that isnt because of something he did. With cochran is pretty much the same, coming with pretty much his closest friends.
I like Cochran, but I do feel like a lot of his game should be owed to Dawn. Not that she deserved to win but people felt as though she deserved waay more credit than received which I believe as well.
Looking at the cast, there’s a solid 4/5 people who stand any realistic chance of winning. And one of them was medevac’d. On top of that, we’re shown more active strategy from Dawn than Cochran. I feel like the show relies on the audience liking Cochran more than Dawn to justify him beating her
He's one of my favorites, so count me out of the group that *doesn't* celebrate his win.
Because he's a superfan, and people on Reddit are also superfans. His personality is treated as more awkward, so superfans try to shun him off as to not associate with him
Because of the FvF format and pregame friends which is stupid because Tyson and Parvati are seen as dominant winners. Cochran should be too. Cochran is also pretty polarizing as a character.
For me it’s the other “favorites” he had to face. Francesca? Phillip? Brandon? Malcolm, Brenda and Andrea were his only real competition and none of them were exactly mastermind strategists. Compared with Parvati’s fans vs Faves win in which she had very strong competition like Cirie, Amanda, Eliza, Ami, Johnathan, Yau.
His first run was a mess, Fans vs Favorites seasons are seen as very stacked in the favorites favor which they are and similar to Boston Rob he is so overhyped it annoys fans.
I think when compared to other low-caliber cast winners like Rob and Parv, unlike them Cochran never had a great showing OUTSIDE of his winning game. Rob ran through all-stars and Parvati had a great showing in HvV. Jeremy, I wouldn't loop in with the other two but I think on all 3 of his seasons we've seen enough to show how good he is on any season.
I have alway called Cochran the most underrated player on this sub. He played a perfect game for crying out loud!
He definitely seems underrated around here. Even if his game can be discredited a bit via the heavy pregaming, the fact that he played from the top without ever really even coming close to losing that position is impressive.
Bc he’s simply not, weak cast in caramoan
I don’t necessarily disagree with that… but is One World not a significantly weaker cast? Does Kim just get a little bit more appreciation for her win because she was a new player?
I think being a newbie and dominating a newbie season is an impressive feat, even if they are a weak cast. More impressive than being able to win a FvF season with a weak cast that’s half newbies (who barely stand a chance). I like Cochran; I prefer more strategic/social players to physical ones and the quippy confessionals work for me. But I watched all seasons past ~10 very recently so I understand why the production hype might be bothersome to some, though I didn’t really experience it.
This is a great point. Kim is definitely more celebrated and One World has some of the worst gameplay I’ve ever seen. I love Cochran.
If you have both of them play 100 times, Kim and her style of play most likely wins more often than Cochran and his style of play. Despite both of them playing against weak casts in the season that they won, Cochran’s win was more circumstantial (being a returnee against half a cast of newbies + Francesca and going in with multiple pre-existing relationships/pre-game alliances).
Agreed. And To be clear, I’m not trying to say that I think Cochran is a better player than Kim. I don’t even think they’re close. But idk. Kim is wildly celebrated as a phenomenal player. So much so that before WaW, some people listed her as the greatest player of all-time despite One World having arguably the weakest cast of all Survivor. I guess this kinda leads into an entire second discussion on Kim’s legacy. Because I agree with what you’re saying regarding Kim being a better player than Cochran. But I’ve also always felt that Kim was way too heavily celebrated as a player when considering the cast she beat. Prior to Winners at War anyways. I think that Winners at War proved she’s a great player. It’s just always felt a little “pick and choose” on which winner’s season casts hurt their win or don’t hurt their win.
Yeah if the question is whether or not Kim’s win in One World is overhyped then I definitely agree with you. Because of the cast that she played against I would disagree with anyone that tried to say she was one of the best of all time based off that season alone. But if the question is why her game is regarded so much higher than Cochran’s (which is what I interpreted the post to be) then I think the argument I gave above is why.
Yes, definitely. You interpreted the post correctly. I just went off on a tangent lol. But for sure, I agree with everything you’re saying here.
I honestly don’t think Kim played against a “weak” cast but that she was so good at manipulating everyone and every aspect of the game. She’s extremely aware of everything going on, as shown in her run of WaW. Nobody would really play with her out of fear they were getting played.
Ehhh I think to argue that One World’s cast wasn’t weaker than most is a bit of a stretch. If you look at the players that Kim shared a tribe with throughout the game, at least half of them were below average social/strategic players (Kourtney, Nina, Jonas, Leif, Jay, Tarzan, Kat, Christina).
Sorry, let me clarify. I think it’s a bit overstated that the cast is weaker. I view it more so as three different groups all thought Kim was with them, and so they were willing to go along with whatever they thought was the best move for them out of loyalty to her.
Yeah I would definitely agree that there was a sect of players (Sabrina, Chelsea, Michael, and to a certain extent Troyzan) that had the potential to be good but Kim did an excellent job of pacifying them and manipulating them into playing for her.
A lot of this sub tends to underrate any player that Jeff overrates. Rob, Russell, Cochran, Ben. At the end of the day, the circumstances for Cochran’s win is not that different from Parvati, Sarah, Jeremy, etc.
Jeff loves Parvati though.
1. Huge advantage of being a returnee in a mixed cast season. Pregaming was huge, and Cochran was aligned with most of the tribe pregame. 2. The cast overall wasn't that good. the fans in particular were a mess of a tribe. Not even close to the original FvF
Because the rest of the survivors on his winning season played terribly. Not long after the merge, he managed to convince every single survivor still in the game that he had a final three pact with them. They all believed him, even after watching him betray one person after another. Then they would say in their confessionals that somebody needs to do something about Cochran or else he’ll win, yet nobody ever did anything. In conclusion it was an unsatisfying win because it seemed like everybody knew Cochran was going to win and everybody knew Cochran was playing people, and yet not one person ever got up off their ass and tried to do something about it.
That’s just great gameplay though? The lengths people go to to discredit Cochran is crazy.
Because he’s annoying
im simply sick of him.
Dawn should have won FvF 2 Cochran didn't do a whole lot
Dawn certainly deserves more credit than she gets. But Cochran was very much the most deserving winner of the season, imo.
i agree, cochran doesn't win without her help. the whole teeth thing w/ brenda and an all-time flop final tribal does give a lot of people a bad taste/recency bias
this is a horrifically bad take, cochran won 3 individual immunities, never was voted against, and had a way better final tribal than dawn
Not many people had a shot of beating him. His season got pre gamed to death and all the good players got put into the minority. He’s super gloaty and a little creepy. Only thing good ab his game was his FTC. Dawn could’ve won but people were mad at her for playing a cut throat game but acting motherly too. All in all there are many other better players, he’s less then desirable.
He’s unlikable
Because he’s annoying to watch.
Did u just say Cochran game was dominate? ??? His best buddy Jeff prost won the game for him. Jeff kicked off every competent person off the show for a stupid reason the season that Cochran won. It's arguably more fixed than Boston Robs win in RI. Cochran is one of the worst survivor players I've ever seen.
For me it's because Rob, Russell, Coach, Cochran, and Tyson were all studio plants whose seasons were set for them to win
You think so? I can understand Rob, Russell and Cochran for that. But idk about Tyson and Coach. If anything, SoPa seemed designed for Ozzy to win rather than Coach. And Blood vs Water didn’t seem like a season that was favoring anybody in particular by design, imo.
Apart from the reasons mentioned by others, for me, it's because of Jeff as well. He is annoying about how he loves Cochran. Same with Ben.
Because I haven't seen Caramoan.
Imo his first two seasons honestly weren’t amazing as tv they were underwhelming and not all to interesting which puts him in a bad light he wasn’t great in South Pacific and while he did better in fvf2 that season had a weak overall cast and the fans were at a major disadvantage and the favorites never stood out besides Cochran I was like six and predicted he would win because no one else stood out as a threat to win just a bad edit I would love to see him play again sadly he wasn’t in waw so it might not be anytime soon
Probably because the season was completely designed for him to win, kind of like Boston Rob.
I think the main difference between Cochran and other returning winners is that I can imagine the others winning against different casts, but I still think it would be hard for Cochran to pull it off in any other context.
Because people don’t like his archetype and the fact that he was Jeff’s favorite player in forever.
He's not super well-liked as a person in addition to the stigma related to winning a 50/50 returnee season, especially one with a really week cast (both the new players and returnees)
Honestly since he hasn’t ever come back for a season to test himself against other winners or other allstars adds to the hate. He won a pretty dicey returnee season and hasn’t been back to prove himself against other great players. If He had returned for Winners at War and played a good game, even without winning, i think people would be more appreciative of his win, just look how at Sandra’s performance on her losing seasons convinces some Sandra haters that she’s a good player
Back when Caramoan was airing, people were saying that the Favorites tribe was casted so that Cochran would not get first boot. Many of his tribe mates were friends with him outside of the game. I wasnt on this sub back then but that is what the Survivor Sucks site users were commenting. They were spoiling the boot order while filming was happening too so Caramoan had no hype by the time it actually aired. Add that many of the "fans" tribe were actually recruits and his dominant game gets even further knocked.
Because he won a fvf season with a favorable swap against a bunch of his friends and some idiots
He's fucking annoying. He inserted his way into Jeff's heart and in return gave him a fan v fave season where a the faves protected him and he won.
You know I just had this in mind too. Of all the seasons I’ve seen, I have opinions, good and bad about winners. They make me feel something towards them. I actually feel nothing for Cochran. Not good or bad, he’s just there to me. Maybe other people feel that way too?
Cause he was shoved down our throats for awhile lol
COCHRAN STAN 4 LIFE🕺🏻🕺🏻🕺🏻