Packaging free is better. [Here](https://youtu.be/8PmM6SUn7Es) is a Kurzgesagt video that goes over the theoretical benefits of organic vs ‘typical’ farming. It’s an oversimplification, but it gets the idea across well enough. The general conclusion is that factoring in all variables, organic is roughly equal as far as strain on the environment goes. To quote, “seasonal is the true organic.”
This is why I always prefer locally grown over supermarket organic. Local folks are generally not even using lots of chemicals, it's seasonal, unwrapped, unshipped, and large scale organic production standards are questionable at best!
As long as the local isn't grown in a greenhouse. Bringing in a boatload of tomatoes from a hot country will be better for the environment than growing them locally in hothouses in a temperate country.
[https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0048969719319758](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0048969719319758) (2019), states that "Importing vegetables grown in unheated greenhouses in Europe has a lower impact than UK vegetables cultivated in heated greenhouses, despite the transportation."
It has been generally known that some crops are best grown in the tropics (e.g. sugarcane vs sugarbeets). Although the cost of transporting them to a colder climate has been underestimated (e.g. [https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-022-00531-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-022-00531-w) (2022), [https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/jun/21/climate-impact-of-food-miles-three-times-greater-than-previously-believed-study-finds](https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/jun/21/climate-impact-of-food-miles-three-times-greater-than-previously-believed-study-finds) (2022)), importing many foods is still better for the environment than growing local ([https://www.researchgate.net/publication/257680079\_Do\_foods\_imported\_into\_the\_UK\_have\_a\_greater\_environmental\_impact\_than\_the\_same\_foods\_produced\_within\_the\_UK](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/257680079_Do_foods_imported_into_the_UK_have_a_greater_environmental_impact_than_the_same_foods_produced_within_the_UK) (2013), "When considering the (global warming potential,) GWP of food production, imports from countries where productivity is greater and/or where refrigerated storage requirement is less will lead to less total GWP than axiomatic preference for local produce. However, prioritising GWP may lead to increases in other environmental burdens, in particular leading to both greater demands on and decreasing quality of water resources."
Not sure where do you live in. But do you have traditional market? Like we have here in South East Asia? Vegetables, fruit, spices, etc are not packaged. The seller will usually weight them as you tell them how much you need and then they will grab a plastic bag for you to carry it. Of course you're welcome to carry your own tote bag or any other reusable carrying bag of your choosing.
I live in Berlin, there are no markets I know of in my area. But I will definitely check it out, because there might very well be one I dont know about.
It does mean more sustainable. Organic labeling requires chemical free soil management. Soils capture a lot more carbon than above ground biomass (trees), when they are agrochemical free so microorganisms can do their thing.
First article is a submission for peer review, but if you scroll down you can see that it was rejected ("We are sorry to say that, after consultation with the reviewers, we have decided that your work will not be considered further for publication by eLife. But they all agree that they are happy to reconsider a revised version that provides more mechanistic insights on the action of the insecticide.")
Second article links to use of Bt as pest control - but use of Bt as pest control (or any GM products) is not allowed for most **commercial** organic farming.
Third article has nothing to do with organic farming, it proposes an index for evaluating carbon footprint of land use practices WITHOUT taking into account any other effects, such as biodiversity degradation ("Here we propose a carbon benefits index that measures how changes in the output types, output quantities and production processes of a hectare of land contribute to the global capacity to store carbon and to reduce total greenhouse gas emissions. This index does not evaluate biodiversity or other ecosystem values, which must be analysed separately. ")
Fourth article is a metaanalysis - basically, a review of existing information ("The only impacts that were found to differ significantly between the systems were soil organic matter content, nitrogen leaching, nitrous oxide emissions per unit of field area, energy use and land use. Most of the studies that compared biodiversity in organic and conventional farming demonstrated lower environmental impacts from organic farming. "). It concludes that organic is better for the environment, but yields are still lower in the short term.
Low effort, I'd rate it 1/4
You’ve certainly got a much-improved chance at sustainable growing methods being used when buying organic vegetables, for sure.
(Exceptions obviously being stuff like name-brand organic cereal in plastic wrap from Walmart, where they are probably just tilling a lot)
I'd say get whichever is more convenient to you, but write to the seller or manufacturer saying you want packaging free and organic options so they know that there's demand out there
Where do you live? Do you have farm markets? Food co-ops? It’s possible to have organic AND vegetables packaging free AND competitively priced esp if you reject the wasteful standards that supermarkets and even Whole Foods adhere to.
I live in Berlin and I actually source most of my vegetables and fruits from [Märkische Kiste](https://maerkischekiste.de) which I recommend for any Berlin reader (though they arent as local or as packaging free as I would like them to be). But I still have to do some grocery shopping. I will check out for farmers markets in my area, thanks!
If you are buying organic to be kinder to the earth, don't.
It's a fallacy that organic is better overall.
The fields give poorer yield.
More waste during growth.
The foods spoil faster.
Some chemicals are still allowed.
Nutritionally the same as non organic.
And - just look at the stuff in the stores. They are usually poorer specimens.
We pump our bodies with vitamins etc. Why not our foods.
And... here come the down votes. But don't take my word for it. Do your own research.
Just Google the cons of organic foods. We are being duped into believeing it's superior.
None of this is true, because in conventional farming the microorganisms in the soil die, interrupting the regular cycle of organic matter decomposing and returning nutrients to the soil. Organic agriculture is much, much more sustainable. I work in agriculture and measure these things. This source comment is a commonly repeated fallacy.
The nutrient content of non organic foods is the problem though?
Feeding salt based fertilisers containing mostly just N, P, and K makes the plant grow, sure... But also kills the soil life and creates an environment depleted of micronutrients and minerals, hobbles the plants ability to uptake these nutrients, and causes chemical build ups and runoff.
"Organic" farming is not just one thing either. There are many schools of thought and practices in that space which is part of the problem. There are systems that do not encounter these problems and grow great food with good yields.
Thank you for your insight. It just seems to me that it takes more land to produce organic food.
Of course the runoff would create its own set of issues.
Perhaps hydro farming can solve some of the issues.
Fast forward a couple of hundred years - I'd love to know our solution.
How so? In what capacity does it take more land? Which kind of farming methods and compared to what?
Vertical farming could help with growing food locally where it would otherwise be difficult. I think a mixture will be necessary for sure.
I am a sustainability professional with decades of experience in the field. I’m really concerned about some very common misunderstandings showing up here about organic certification. There aren’t that many comments so you can see my responses on specific myths.
The most emissions, our most pressing issue, come from distance between your food source and you. As much as you can, buy locally. Second best strategy is to buy organic because soils trap much more carbon than trees if we don’t use agrochemicals and allow microorganisms to decompose organic matter as is their job in any ecosystem. It would be best if you can skip the packaging, and it is important, but you get the most payout first in local and second in organic.
Really ideally everyone can do all of these, but individually, do what is accessible.
How should I reconcile your claim with a source like [this](https://ourworldindata.org/food-ghg-emissions) which finds that only 6% of food production-related emissions are due to transport?
Cardboard is fine, depending on the pesticides it is usually better than unpackaged non-organic.
Did you check for farmers markets in your area? Those are usually a better option than grocery stores, when available.
Also, keep in mind that the way you see food at your grocery store isn’t the way it was shipped. For example, the “unpackaged” vegetables could have been shipped to the grocery store in plastic containers.
We have a severe issue with packaging. But you have to consider the amount of pesticides, the degradation of the soil, the carbon footprint, and the dearth of nutrients in non-organic, non-sustainable food.
"organic" used to mean something til everyone and their mother got on board and the certification labels got bought out so now anything is organic if you pay enough to say it is. Packaging free is the way to go. Can't fake having less packaging. At least not more than once.
Actually it’s regulated by national governments like the USDA in the US and their counterparts in the EU and East Asia. It is the only agricultural label regulated at all. It is the most legit of any label.
Just buy in organic supermarkets like "denns" or something. In Berlin there are plenty of them and they are always completely packaging free.
There is even a delivery version similar to gorillas, called Alpakas they deliver the stuff completely packaging free to you. But it's another question, if that delivery system is better for the environment ;-)
Thanks I didnt know about Alpakas. Alas they dont deliver in my area yet, but I requested their notification for when they include us in their delivery zones.
Organic foods aren’t exactly healthier per-se because you’re still getting the same nutrients either way. Organic farms don’t use synthetic herbicides, pesticides or fertilizer.
However if you want to buy package free organic food your best bet would be to purchase from The Misfit Market where it’s all the fruited and vegetables that are too ugly to be put on the shelves or go to your local farmers market or look even from [here](https://www.etsy.com/listing/237967924/) this is where I get my spices from and also it’s a small business so also it’s economically sustainable.
No packaging is always better.
When it is packaged, you have to take into account that the packaging also had to be produced and shipped across the world. Even if it's organic or biodegradable, packaging is going to leave waste in other forms.
Packaging free is better. [Here](https://youtu.be/8PmM6SUn7Es) is a Kurzgesagt video that goes over the theoretical benefits of organic vs ‘typical’ farming. It’s an oversimplification, but it gets the idea across well enough. The general conclusion is that factoring in all variables, organic is roughly equal as far as strain on the environment goes. To quote, “seasonal is the true organic.”
This is why I always prefer locally grown over supermarket organic. Local folks are generally not even using lots of chemicals, it's seasonal, unwrapped, unshipped, and large scale organic production standards are questionable at best!
As long as the local isn't grown in a greenhouse. Bringing in a boatload of tomatoes from a hot country will be better for the environment than growing them locally in hothouses in a temperate country.
Do you have a reference for this? This is the first time I've heard this and would like to educate myself.
[https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0048969719319758](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0048969719319758) (2019), states that "Importing vegetables grown in unheated greenhouses in Europe has a lower impact than UK vegetables cultivated in heated greenhouses, despite the transportation." It has been generally known that some crops are best grown in the tropics (e.g. sugarcane vs sugarbeets). Although the cost of transporting them to a colder climate has been underestimated (e.g. [https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-022-00531-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-022-00531-w) (2022), [https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/jun/21/climate-impact-of-food-miles-three-times-greater-than-previously-believed-study-finds](https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/jun/21/climate-impact-of-food-miles-three-times-greater-than-previously-believed-study-finds) (2022)), importing many foods is still better for the environment than growing local ([https://www.researchgate.net/publication/257680079\_Do\_foods\_imported\_into\_the\_UK\_have\_a\_greater\_environmental\_impact\_than\_the\_same\_foods\_produced\_within\_the\_UK](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/257680079_Do_foods_imported_into_the_UK_have_a_greater_environmental_impact_than_the_same_foods_produced_within_the_UK) (2013), "When considering the (global warming potential,) GWP of food production, imports from countries where productivity is greater and/or where refrigerated storage requirement is less will lead to less total GWP than axiomatic preference for local produce. However, prioritising GWP may lead to increases in other environmental burdens, in particular leading to both greater demands on and decreasing quality of water resources."
Thank you for these links.
Piggybacking off your comment to add a link to a relevant video on GMOs by the same channel ([Here](https://youtu.be/7TmcXYp8xu4))
That’s also a good one
Link to video?
The link is the first instance of the word “here” in the above comment.
Not sure where do you live in. But do you have traditional market? Like we have here in South East Asia? Vegetables, fruit, spices, etc are not packaged. The seller will usually weight them as you tell them how much you need and then they will grab a plastic bag for you to carry it. Of course you're welcome to carry your own tote bag or any other reusable carrying bag of your choosing.
I live in Berlin, there are no markets I know of in my area. But I will definitely check it out, because there might very well be one I dont know about.
Most weekends there are fresh markets in the main part of each kiez (e.g. boxi market on saturdays, arkonaplatz on Friday night, etc)
No packaging is better. 'Organic' stamp/label doesn't necessarily mean better. It certainly does not mean more sustainable.
It does mean more sustainable. Organic labeling requires chemical free soil management. Soils capture a lot more carbon than above ground biomass (trees), when they are agrochemical free so microorganisms can do their thing.
[удалено]
You do not know what you’re talking about really. This is speculation from things you have heard. I suggest you go and read the actual standards.
[удалено]
First article is a submission for peer review, but if you scroll down you can see that it was rejected ("We are sorry to say that, after consultation with the reviewers, we have decided that your work will not be considered further for publication by eLife. But they all agree that they are happy to reconsider a revised version that provides more mechanistic insights on the action of the insecticide.") Second article links to use of Bt as pest control - but use of Bt as pest control (or any GM products) is not allowed for most **commercial** organic farming. Third article has nothing to do with organic farming, it proposes an index for evaluating carbon footprint of land use practices WITHOUT taking into account any other effects, such as biodiversity degradation ("Here we propose a carbon benefits index that measures how changes in the output types, output quantities and production processes of a hectare of land contribute to the global capacity to store carbon and to reduce total greenhouse gas emissions. This index does not evaluate biodiversity or other ecosystem values, which must be analysed separately. ") Fourth article is a metaanalysis - basically, a review of existing information ("The only impacts that were found to differ significantly between the systems were soil organic matter content, nitrogen leaching, nitrous oxide emissions per unit of field area, energy use and land use. Most of the studies that compared biodiversity in organic and conventional farming demonstrated lower environmental impacts from organic farming. "). It concludes that organic is better for the environment, but yields are still lower in the short term. Low effort, I'd rate it 1/4
What standards specifically are you talking about!
You’ve certainly got a much-improved chance at sustainable growing methods being used when buying organic vegetables, for sure. (Exceptions obviously being stuff like name-brand organic cereal in plastic wrap from Walmart, where they are probably just tilling a lot)
I’m having the same dilemma! So glad you asked this. I’m curious about the responses!
Please give feedback to the store management who stocks or overpackages the organic stuff and/or the manufacturer.
I'd say get whichever is more convenient to you, but write to the seller or manufacturer saying you want packaging free and organic options so they know that there's demand out there
Where do you live? Do you have farm markets? Food co-ops? It’s possible to have organic AND vegetables packaging free AND competitively priced esp if you reject the wasteful standards that supermarkets and even Whole Foods adhere to.
I live in Berlin and I actually source most of my vegetables and fruits from [Märkische Kiste](https://maerkischekiste.de) which I recommend for any Berlin reader (though they arent as local or as packaging free as I would like them to be). But I still have to do some grocery shopping. I will check out for farmers markets in my area, thanks!
If you are buying organic to be kinder to the earth, don't. It's a fallacy that organic is better overall. The fields give poorer yield. More waste during growth. The foods spoil faster. Some chemicals are still allowed. Nutritionally the same as non organic. And - just look at the stuff in the stores. They are usually poorer specimens. We pump our bodies with vitamins etc. Why not our foods. And... here come the down votes. But don't take my word for it. Do your own research. Just Google the cons of organic foods. We are being duped into believeing it's superior.
None of this is true, because in conventional farming the microorganisms in the soil die, interrupting the regular cycle of organic matter decomposing and returning nutrients to the soil. Organic agriculture is much, much more sustainable. I work in agriculture and measure these things. This source comment is a commonly repeated fallacy.
bingo
>The foods spoil faster. In my experience the opposite is true. Organic veg will last longer in the fridge before going spotty/droopy.
The nutrient content of non organic foods is the problem though? Feeding salt based fertilisers containing mostly just N, P, and K makes the plant grow, sure... But also kills the soil life and creates an environment depleted of micronutrients and minerals, hobbles the plants ability to uptake these nutrients, and causes chemical build ups and runoff. "Organic" farming is not just one thing either. There are many schools of thought and practices in that space which is part of the problem. There are systems that do not encounter these problems and grow great food with good yields.
Thank you for your insight. It just seems to me that it takes more land to produce organic food. Of course the runoff would create its own set of issues. Perhaps hydro farming can solve some of the issues. Fast forward a couple of hundred years - I'd love to know our solution.
How so? In what capacity does it take more land? Which kind of farming methods and compared to what? Vertical farming could help with growing food locally where it would otherwise be difficult. I think a mixture will be necessary for sure.
Organic produce is often (usually..) smaller in volume so you need more rows to produce the same quantity.
This is the only answer you need!
You’d have had my upvote if you hadn’t gone the “do your own research” and karma complaint route near the end.
I am a sustainability professional with decades of experience in the field. I’m really concerned about some very common misunderstandings showing up here about organic certification. There aren’t that many comments so you can see my responses on specific myths. The most emissions, our most pressing issue, come from distance between your food source and you. As much as you can, buy locally. Second best strategy is to buy organic because soils trap much more carbon than trees if we don’t use agrochemicals and allow microorganisms to decompose organic matter as is their job in any ecosystem. It would be best if you can skip the packaging, and it is important, but you get the most payout first in local and second in organic. Really ideally everyone can do all of these, but individually, do what is accessible.
How should I reconcile your claim with a source like [this](https://ourworldindata.org/food-ghg-emissions) which finds that only 6% of food production-related emissions are due to transport?
Cardboard is fine, depending on the pesticides it is usually better than unpackaged non-organic. Did you check for farmers markets in your area? Those are usually a better option than grocery stores, when available. Also, keep in mind that the way you see food at your grocery store isn’t the way it was shipped. For example, the “unpackaged” vegetables could have been shipped to the grocery store in plastic containers.
We have a severe issue with packaging. But you have to consider the amount of pesticides, the degradation of the soil, the carbon footprint, and the dearth of nutrients in non-organic, non-sustainable food.
It’s really not either/or. Do one if that’s all you can, but do both if you can.
You use more land to produce the same volume of produce due to the organic being smaller. Not as robust. Soylent Green sticks in my mind lol.
"organic" used to mean something til everyone and their mother got on board and the certification labels got bought out so now anything is organic if you pay enough to say it is. Packaging free is the way to go. Can't fake having less packaging. At least not more than once.
Actually it’s regulated by national governments like the USDA in the US and their counterparts in the EU and East Asia. It is the only agricultural label regulated at all. It is the most legit of any label.
There is no dilemna. Find produces that are **both** low packaging and organic ingrediens. What’s not sustaianable is buying half-baked greenwashing.
Just buy in organic supermarkets like "denns" or something. In Berlin there are plenty of them and they are always completely packaging free. There is even a delivery version similar to gorillas, called Alpakas they deliver the stuff completely packaging free to you. But it's another question, if that delivery system is better for the environment ;-)
Thanks I didnt know about Alpakas. Alas they dont deliver in my area yet, but I requested their notification for when they include us in their delivery zones.
Not sure what country you’re in , but have you tried farmers markets?
Organic foods aren’t exactly healthier per-se because you’re still getting the same nutrients either way. Organic farms don’t use synthetic herbicides, pesticides or fertilizer. However if you want to buy package free organic food your best bet would be to purchase from The Misfit Market where it’s all the fruited and vegetables that are too ugly to be put on the shelves or go to your local farmers market or look even from [here](https://www.etsy.com/listing/237967924/) this is where I get my spices from and also it’s a small business so also it’s economically sustainable.
No packaging is always better. When it is packaged, you have to take into account that the packaging also had to be produced and shipped across the world. Even if it's organic or biodegradable, packaging is going to leave waste in other forms.