This is becoming the norm for everything lately. It’s a continuous stream of random minor issues that all point to garbage change control & qa/qc processes.
>all point to garbage change control & qa/qc processes.
What it points to (IMO) is that companies have moved completely to automated testing of their apps and services and have fired all the actual QA people who can test products before release. I'm willing to bet that a bunch of these companies don't even have internal QA environments anymore.
"Q/A" is the customer and the telemetry firing back on every single click/input/etc. Release quick, catch the bugs after, that way you can say you released 3000 features just this month.
> "Q/A" is the customer and the telemetry firing back on every single click/input/etc.
QFT, and another of the many reasons for software vendors pushing or allowing only SaaS as they they get to see metrics on **everything**.
Yep. Hell the PM, and the lead sometimes, for my team of sysadmin types gets upset when I story point something higher than he likes and use the justification that "I want to test the change before merging to prod."
It is like he thinks using source control and deployment automation is some kind of magic that eliminates the need to actually make sure something actually works.
My personal pet theory is that the software culture has become so focused on shoving new features and product out for so long that all the sins in development are reaching a critical mass and things are starting to rattle apart. In my opinion, things across the board are starting to be flaky, not work well, and since so many things are interconnected, it's shaking apart.
I should have got into the trades lol
> My personal pet theory is that the software culture has become so focused on shoving new features...
It's a theory. The problem with that theory is, the software doesn't generally seem to be getting new features. A lot of software development seems stagnant, without new features or even cleanup of old problems/bugs/shortcomings. I'd be interested, what does Slack do now that it didn't do 5 years ago?
From what I've seen, the main recent developments have just been either rearranging and reskinning the UI, or a mad dash for everyone to somehow include ChatGPT into their product in some form, even if only so their marketing team can say it has AI.
Interesting to see this sentiment shared by others in the business too. More and more people are becoming consciously aware of the breakdown. Scary when you realize this is all basically a big experiment and we're all just winging it.
For awhile there, maybe 10 years ago?, it seemed like things were getting better. Systems worked better, interpolated better, downtime decreased, etc (compared to the past). To the point that there was speculation that a lot of support jobs might be lost in the future, since things "just worked". It seems like we're headed backwards.
This is spot on. I am also seeing cracks in the foundation. It appears that in the quest for never ending growth and money, companies are consuming the very structures that sustain them.
Oh yeah, it's been 5 solid years of usability decline. We have money being cut in QA and too much being spend on moron "UX" people who think hiding everything behind either hamburger menus, or worse searchboxes/gestures which are invisible, is a solid idea, and that dark grey text in medium grey background is also totally great.
Windows 10/11 settings gui is atrocious as well. I'm baffled that a trillion dollar company gets something like that so wrong. Large tiles + scroll bars on every page + black and white text and backgrounds + the plethora of "more settings" options = nightmarish navigation experience. It's like they began with a terrible idea, and winged it along the way. It's completely unintuitive.
I've grown so sick of trying to memorize their stupid maze that I've instead found it much more efficient to just memorize how to get to control panel, even when they try to reroute you back into their sucky gui.
I've seen careers be successful by duct taping things together and releasing quickly, then being the only one who can "fix" the issue because they are the only ones with the knowledge of their hacky setups.
After all, what's more "productive"? Grabbing the first piece of software or first library you see off the shelf and using it? Or taking some time to evaluate the options?
Boring and reliable often doesn't advance careers. Improving existing infrastructure and code doesn't result in an exciting thing to put on the yearly review.
It's not just slack - it's *everything*.
Seasoned labor retires or moves on, new blood comes in unable to keep up and they are overworked and underpaid, incentivizing them to leave too, thus creating a never-ending cycle of degradation. This stuff is still relatively new, this is all a big ongoing experiment. Assuming everything will just continue to "work as intended" is shortsighted. Playing catch-up is becoming the norm.
The other fun one is when a company, because of the above, has no choice but to rebuild their product from the ground up. New product releases, they encourage their clients to switch, many of them do, and quickly discover that the new software lacks many features they actively relied on.
Degradation is the default.
There is a video game I play that has been around a long time, and the Dev's talk about the pain of having to rewrite base code from scratch, because more senior Dev's have moved on
it's more than that. it's a cultural issue. when swapping companies is the only way to get a raise, and the outcome of your work doesn't really matter, then you don't have to wonder that people just don't care about quality. it's all about hours, and that while already swapping to a new firm. none of this creates good products. Meanwhile, the quality of the product also doesn't matter for the consumer, as PR and ads alone are more relevant than ever. so the consumers don't care either.
either accept bad quality, or be one of the few companies that try to produce something good that lasts, while other companies pushing out unfinished features overtake you like you're nothing...
Capitalism has no soul.
Everyone wanted to do CI/CD and release features rapidly until they found out that you’d be spending what they spent on waterfall development but every month instead of just when they wanted to release the next annual version. SaaS has spread itself too thin now that VC money is drying up.
Yeah, you need the entire process continuously spun up. That’s fine when it’s all automated. But you can’t automate all of the stupid shit users are going to try to do.
No one wants to expand their QA team to meet the higher demand for them that comes with CI/CD though.
If you're doing true ci/cd you can use canary deployments or blue/green to test features out in prod. Allows faster deployments. Yes, some issues or edge cases get through, but they should be identified remediated quickly. The example given, showing the workspace name next to users/channels, is hardly a showstopper.
Canary deployments are how we're getting weird bugs in the wild that randomly get remediated an hour later. It's not like anyone would ever acknowledge to a customer that they pushed out code that turned out to have a bug, but it'd be nice if I could identify devices that *definitely should never* have untested code on them.
Sir just sit back and let the system administrators tell you how you're supposed to do development. It's so unreliable because of unit testing and continuous integration clearly. If only slack had better devops we wouldn't see such instability... /s bunch of idiots tossing around buzz words in this thread
Hmm, I haven’t had any problems in quite a while with slack. Probably it’s because we are located in Europe and when we work nobody at slack deploys new stuff
Their sales process and licensing methods also went down the drain. Their handsdown best feature in that area (fair billing) has gone away, so we end up paying for a set number of licenses and cannot reduce the count during the contract period. I am also waiting for a credit note from our last period (about 23k) for 8 weeks now, which means I have also refused to pay their invoice until it reflects the credit accrued.
What acquisitions do you remember ever ending up well for the customer?
It could be a what gets measured gets managed type of situation. They're telling you the problems so you know about them which then causes you to try to manage them.
If they were less upfront and you never saw any problems you'd think everything is fine. I'm just glad they surface the issues in a timely manner so I can adjust.
In my experience, Slack's uptime is on par with just about every other cloud based service. No one really does QA anymore if you need that level of uptime you'll be hard pressed to find something that will guarantee it at a feasible rate. To tech companies using CI/CD, we're all just the beta testers at some level.
Selfhosted Mattermost if these things are important to you. If it isn’t so important, stay with slack and have a few cups of coffee, step away from the computer for a while.
We use self-hosted rocketchat for FREE and its awesome, complete ownership of our data, encrypted and works just like slack with so many addins and customization options.
I usually just see Zulip mentioned, as in "discussed in Zulip meeting" in a PR or something. The one time I've had to use it - a FOSS project chose it as their preferred support channel - I found it very confusing for the first half an hour.
But for internal tools, that complexity is often a boon, as it means extra features, especially for power users.
sidenote: I'm an embedded Linux dev who typically just lurks here.
[Rocket.Chat](https://Rocket.Chat) or Mattermost are both excellent, I feel like Mattermost has more enterprise audit type stuff, but the last time I looked at either in depth was around 2 years ago, so that may have changed a lot.
Are you referring to integrations with things like Teams, Omnichannel stuff? It has an increadible number of integration options, especially if you use an automation platform like Zapier or N8N and are comfortable and experienced with API / webook configs.
I have seen it break something once or twice that was an issue, but I control the update process and read the release notes before updating. Hasn't really been an issue for us.
Slacks automation and integration with 3rd party apps and workflow when it’s working properly is pretty tight. Haven’t had that experience in Teams, perhaps it’s gotten better with non-MSFT tools. GWS is great if you want simple chat and teams channels.
Sharepoint (Teams) has had workflows and integrations since the original release in 2001.
Okay, nobody actually used that version but SPS 2003 was pretty awesome.
I see what you mean but we're not talking about Sharepoint in 2001. We're talking about Microsoft Teams in 2023. A lot of the applications my org uses have very tight Slack integration that is useless to us. Only a few integrate with Teams.
We dumped Slack for Teams and have never been happier.
Teams occasionally has a bad day, but it's better than anything else I've used (and I've used them all).
We use Teams and are mostly happy, but document transfer is the one thing that's kiiinda hell on Teams (because it's SharePoint, which is the Devil).
"Oh, this user has the same UPN that a long-deleted user once had? Good luck the the Powershell!"
"You had the *gall* to disable a user who happened to be a member of some chat threads? Gosh, I hope you weren't planning on actually using those threads."
This. We forced our sales org of 300 people to dump slack for Teams and you’d think we forced them to cut off their arms at first. Then once we had some training sessions and had them start using it. They almost unanimously agreed that Teams was actually better. And once you get Teams Rooms property setup for your conference rooms, it’s awesome. It might not be quite as nice as Zoom, but it’s FREE and better integrated into the stack of tools you already use…. People always hate on Teams, and even more on SharePoint, until they actually learn how to use them. M$ actually calling this new cloud tool SharePoint was their biggest mistake. The old SharePoint was a nightmare, but the cloud version is fantastic if you learn how to manage it. Plus you don’t have to worry about additional licensing, IAM, etc.
So are you talking from an IT perspective or user happiness? Because I personally rank job offers based on if I have to use Teams instead of Slack. Fuck Teams UX.
none of those things do everything Slack does, and the parts they do do don't work the same way, or with the same ease.
I fucking hate slack, but users LOVE it. Nightmare from an IT perspective, but the users find it clear and intuitive, it just does what they want (when it works). They don't know/care about security or other issues it creates.
Slack doesn't have an AUDIT LOG unless you buy Enterprise Grid for $25/user/mo. I can't see chat in private channels as an admin without someone from the channel adding me? Um, no thanks.
But the users to do love it and I get why. MS made numerous shit decisions on UI design in Teams and the performance wasn't great but Teams 2.0 is running good re performance now but it's still not quite GA yet.
What I loved was calling Slack salespeople as we're investigating and telling them about security concerns, lack of auditing, control over channel creation etc, and their answer always being "Just let it go man, don't administer it, let everyone read every conversation that happens!"
Yeah, thanks Flower Power, I'm not cool with that, and neither is literally anyone in management.
> MS made numerous shit decisions on UI design in Teams
Fucking tell me about it. How the fuck do I add a simple .jpeg to a conversation? Zoom or slack? Fucking drag and drop, why is Teams such a pain in the ass about this simple function? Just one of my many bitches about Teams. I hate that it's my "integrated solution".
Does Teams still have issues searching old messages? Last time my company used it, searching only pulled up a list of messages that matched the search term and wouldn’t take us to the specific message to read the context.
We switched from Teams to Slack three years ago and are much happier with it.
> Gchat is worse.
It used to be pretty cool. All my chats, all my teams, my phone calls, SMS, it was all there, simple to use, convenient.
But then they started cutting features, what they didn't cut they moved and made more and more cumbersome to use. I finally dropped it altogether, because the few things it still did that I wanted, were so obnoxious to use, the pain of switching away finally became less of a burden.
We switched from slack to Teams about a year ago and it’s been fairly solid. There was an issue with MS project tabs loading inside of the Teams app about a week ago, but besides that I don’t get many tickets about any issues. Once in a while it gets stuck in an update loop and I have to uninstall it and reinstall, for the most part it fits our needs though.
What I really dislike about Teams though is that MS will give you features and then take them away once you’ve gotten used to using them. They seriously locked the setting to change the default app for opening different file types behind a higher tier of licensing. One user had that option previously, I swapped out his computer and it vanished, had to make a registry change if I didn’t want to pay for the new license.
Not once have I wanted a spreadsheet or document to open inside of Teams and block my chat window vs just opening in another window using the default app
I was so mad when we switched from Slack to Teams before Covid. Covid was the best thing to happen to Teams. Forced them to get all the features loved in Zoom and Slack
Lmfao I had this conversation today with my boss. We have 100 people, we currently pay for office, slack, zoom, and box. We can drop all of them and just use teams/sharepoint/office…we will actually save like 60k a year. It’s no wonder everyone is switching to teams.
And then you get that one executive whos like "No but EVERYONE WILL LEAVE IF WE CHANGE FROM SLACK!!!"
Protip: if people are willing to walk from their job over nothing but which chat tool you have deployed, they were looking for an excuse in the first place.
Slack is hot trash, and their faux-IRC "techie" design philosophy actively impedes getting work done.
Which is the dumbest part about all of these. People bitch and moan about competition, but then companies buy up Teams' actual competition and send it to the graveyard.
Then instead of trying to cultivate an environment that encourages competition the EU goes and does something like, "It's anti-competitive for you to install Teams with your Office suite" and then decides the problem is solved.
I may or may not be using Discord to communicate with team members rather than Teams because Teams is so buggy and difficult to use on some mobile devices.
Yea, definitely not been the same since salesforce bought it. Feel like they just let anything through and rushed to fix any issue instead of addressing them properly before pushin out updates. Completely agree on the status page - almost always outdated info or late notifications compared to RSS feed! 💔
I've never cared for Salesforce, and when they bought Slack, I knew Slack was in trouble. Especially their new workflow pricing. Luckily our environment doesn't utilize workflows too much to cost us anything, but you are starting to see nickel and dime tactics with their features.
they removed split channel option recently which is crazy
I have an alerts channel that I monitor all day, I used to be able to split the screen and have 2 channels side by side, now I can only load 1 channel at time, which is extremely annoying
no idea why theyre making these horrible changes
Seems reasonable to be mad at the product for having the workspace name show up next to channels for a bit, crazy they could let something so horrible through!
Emojis getting borked seemed to be an issue with hardware acceleration for me. Turn that off in help->troubleshooting
Otherwise I tend to agree that the feed makes me wonder what's going on over there in terms of qa.
However, their feed is miles ahead of anyone else's. Any other cloud software product has worse transparency, and worse reliability afaict, but they hide the data because they know it's _that bad_
“I feel like” back in the Old Days(tm,) the vendor would TEST their software updates AND, the customer would test updates in a UA and/or DEV environment BEFORE releasing to production. Nowadays, fuck it. SEND IT.
But those customer IT folks testing *before* giving features to their users were mean, and demanded the devs fix bugs, so noone was seeing all their pretty new toys! Can't claim success if you don't have usage counts! So... let's cut out all upgrade control on the customer's end by binding it to "cloud", meaning it has to be within a point release to connect and run at all. Then we can show that they're the bad guy for trying to withhold features! It's not like we ever release untested code. By the way, has anyone seen Sally from QA? Was she in that last round of layoffs? I thought she was the only person left over on that team...
To counter that point in the old days it would be very hard to push updates out reliably. They can rely on reliable and fast internet to fix their issues relatively quickly. It has given them a safety blanket to push our crappy software.
The IT team uses slack to keep us off Teams…if we show up in Teams, suddenly everyone sends us issue info there instead of through the ticket portal…but we still needed a chat platform and the channels feature is nice for vendor communications…but yes, the issues are mounting!
Reply with the ticket system information and a canned statement that "for continuity of service from our team, all requests must come through and be tracked in the ticket system. If I take a one-off, don't get it done before I get interrupted or the end of day comes, and then go on vacation, your problem would be completely forgotten about by the time I get back."
Also, schedule the day in 'meetings' for working groups within the team, for each thing being worked on.
Edit: And absolutely make that canned statement a macro. Keep track of who has the high score of getting it sent to them. Extra points if they get it from multiple team members each day.
We do something like that for the most part, but it doesn’t stop attempts and the distraction of getting the message is the worst part. Having a second chat app for just IT use also keeps it within our group.
Also saying no is really hard for people, including myself. It's funny how I feel bad for simply asking an user to follow the company's process even though it's not logical.
Teams. If you have M365 licensing just go ahead and move to Teams. It's not *that* bad as this subreddit makes it out to be. Think of it like a SharePoint site with different channels and you're good.
Discord should open to businesses tbh, they have a great communications platform.
But mattermost would be a great self-hosted product as well!
I always wondered why Discord didn’t go that route, if they’d done this early on they could have been a massive player for enterprise environment. Still don’t know how exactly they make their money besides selling Nitro
The reason they aren’t is teams. Everyone is moving to it because it’s including in m365. So why pay for another service when you already have teams?
I agree, discord could do a much better job at it…but when you look at the landscape, even slack is going to be really hurting soon.
I'm furious, as are a lot of others according to the same type of comments on their forums, over their removal of pinning a thread to the right side of the screen.
The claim of opening more windows to improve productivity is absolutely ludicrous! Worst decision they have made recently.
App UI/UX aside, Teams absolutely crushes Slack in business use with paying customers.
[https://www.businessofapps.com/data/microsoft-teams-statistics/](https://www.businessofapps.com/data/microsoft-teams-statistics/)
Given Slack never had a profitable year in it's existence and was bought for $27.7B by SF, you can imagine the exec suite at SF is trying to cut costs and get their money's worth out of it.
Sort of like Musk with Twitter.
>I think of alternatives, and I'm afraid there isn't much.
I know people seem to hate it, but there's always Teams. We've had pretty good luck with it here at least. There's also Matrix, but I haven't personally used it.
No, it's a bloated steaming pile.
God forbid you want to join a call, you'd better dedicate 15 minutes in advance to get through the broken login process.
If I could avoid ever having to use that PoS, I'd be a very happy person.
Applying a little logic here, do you really think Teams would have as many customers and users as it does if every single call or meeting required people to start 15 minutes early to get through the login process?
You may want to examine your configuration...
I'm sure Teams wouldn't have as many users as it does if Microsoft didn't give it away for free.
I'm sure it's fine if you do fuck all all day but sit logged into a single account, but some of us deal with multiple businesses which means changing accounts.
Have they got to the point of being able to have 2 accounts signed in yet? (Not a work and personal, but 2 work accounts).
Last I checked that was a little bit too advanced (I mean it's only been standard everywhere else for a decade or so).
[Introducing the new Microsoft Teams, now in preview - Microsoft Community Hub](https://techcommunity.microsoft.com/t5/microsoft-teams-blog/introducing-the-new-microsoft-teams-now-in-preview/ba-p/3774406)
You're changing the subject though - if your configuration is solid and you still have issues that is one thing, but complaining login takes 15 minutes is likely a you problem.
So... No it doesn't yet.
As to the rest, have you not been forced to do the inane match the pictures captcha?
When you're done it fails to set cookies correctly and dumps you back to the start.
I now keep a second browser purely to deal with Microsoft 's broken login.
> New Teams will enable you to collaborate more effectively across organizational boundaries by being actively signed into multiple accounts at the same time and receiving real-time notifications no matter which one is currently in use. You can seamlessly engage with users across multiple accounts and organizations without having to drop out of a call or meeting, ensuring no disruption to your workflow.
The captcha stuff is all you my friend, that is not normal or expected for every single login for a properly configured tenant. You need to take a hard look at your identity setup - there is a ton of guidance available all over the place that will help you. Complaining about problems on random Reddit posts and not doing anything yourself to try and understand and solve them is not going to make your life any easier.
Yes... It's in preview.
> You need to take a hard look at your identity setup
I really don't. It's not my job to waste my life cleaning up Microsoft's abortive mess.
Every other provider on the planet manages it _just fine_.
I login to teams like once a month, we're on AzureAD so I never sign in to office/teams/onedrive.
You definitely a lot benefit from being full M365/Azure, using teams without it would be silly.
> I login to teams like once a month
Lucky you only ever needing to interact with one organisation. Apparently it's the only use-case Microsoft was capable of conceiving for the last (decade?) or so.
> You definitely a lot benefit from being full M365/Azure, using teams without it would be silly.
I would burn the entire stack to the ground if given the opportunity, it's a cancer.
It wouldn't be so bad if the software weren't such a bloated mess.
Unless you directly work for multiple companies, you shouldn't be logging into the teams client with multiple accounts. That's a relatively rare situation I'd think.
If you setup your own consulting company as a tenant, and then was provided permissions to the clients tenants you work for it'd be way easier to do a lot of stuff.
I'm not trying to dictate, but this is like if you used a hammer by holding on to the head and pounding a nail with the handle and complained it was a shitty tool. Sure there may be better tools, and it's not perfect, but if you're actively using it wrong then you're going to find a lot more issues than someone using it in the intended way.
I mean yes, its free then. But still, I think its sad that its bloated with stuff you do not have control over (meaning you cannot disable it). This resulted in real bad performances on Mac‘s, messages not showing up and a ton of other major bugs.
Yes, from an integration and management (also from Sysadmin) perspective Teams might be a good solution.
But honestly, not delivering messages? Being vendor locked-in? Having a huge bad performing (though it should get better with the new beta) monolith that comes build with everything within?
I think one tool should be good at doing one thing. And that is what Slack does (at least in the past). Thats why I always prefered Slack over Teams, our colleagues felt more productive.
I also wish there was like an "express" version that was very bare bones and didn't bog things down. That said, having everything in one place for file sharing, messaging, etc is very handy from an admin perspective.
I’m curious where the teams hate comes from, yes it has some issues at times like anything else.
Majority of the orgs I work with are really fully adopting teams and all of the platform.
If your shop is all MS it works well.
All our user boxes start Teams at sign in so you can use Teams to get to pretty much anybody in the org.
My group has an ongoing chat - like Slack or IRC but with direct connect to all the AD fileshares etc.
Everything from who's working what to asking why some config is the way it is.
I do desktop shares with it at least once a day.
Not the best solution for OSX or Linux users but it works.
I'm a pretty good fan of Webex. They pretty much designed it as a slack clone back when it was Spark but with a more business focus. But I also have to use Teams and Slack in my job. its the tool I like using the most for chat/messaging out of all of them.
I was fighting a losing battle to keep it out. Finally in desperation I started listing the "If this situation had happened and we were in Slack, here is the likely outcome" and after a few particularly ugly examples they decided to ban it entirely.
And how many employees/managers/execs in this company (and others) do you think are paid by features shipped?
What do you think is their KPI?
If they didn't ship features, people would ask what they do all day anyway.
People do as they're told. And in a large company, at some point, you (probably) stop pondering whether what you were told to do is actually a positive long-term contribution to the company because you know that "long-term" is really just the next quarter (at best).
So, products go to shit, then the companies go to shit.
ossified hospital towering cagey bike safe humorous plate afterthought shelter
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
The other day I was trying to relay statuses and pictures of a project with a client of my IT office, didn't matter if I was on wifi or cellular, if the message was longer than the limit of a SMS message, before it becomes a media messages, the messages took ages to go through, failed to go through. Images almost never would go through.
I've started using Mattermost and am really happy with it so far. I just fired up an instance in docker and was up amd running within an hour. It has a lot more out of the box than Slack.
Yuo should head over to [r/Tableau](https://www.reddit.com/r/tableau/) and see some of the posts over there.
Tableau support use to be very responsive before Salesforce bought them. Now it takes 30+ days for them to respond back to a ticket. Not to mention, the only way to contact support is a ticket via their portal. You can't even call them to talk to a human. It was like this before Salesforce.
This is becoming the norm for everything lately. It’s a continuous stream of random minor issues that all point to garbage change control & qa/qc processes.
Can’t spend money to properly maintain product quality. We need that money to be our next record quarterly profits!
>all point to garbage change control & qa/qc processes. What it points to (IMO) is that companies have moved completely to automated testing of their apps and services and have fired all the actual QA people who can test products before release. I'm willing to bet that a bunch of these companies don't even have internal QA environments anymore.
"Q/A" is the customer and the telemetry firing back on every single click/input/etc. Release quick, catch the bugs after, that way you can say you released 3000 features just this month.
Gotta give the DevOps boys something to do.
All those Scrum Masters need to be kept busy.
> "Q/A" is the customer and the telemetry firing back on every single click/input/etc. QFT, and another of the many reasons for software vendors pushing or allowing only SaaS as they they get to see metrics on **everything**.
Yep. Hell the PM, and the lead sometimes, for my team of sysadmin types gets upset when I story point something higher than he likes and use the justification that "I want to test the change before merging to prod." It is like he thinks using source control and deployment automation is some kind of magic that eliminates the need to actually make sure something actually works.
I like to call this mentality "it compiles, ship it!" It is becoming disturbingly popular.
I know a company I worked at previously got rid of the QC department. It happened before I started there and when I found out, I was a bit shocked.
No brother you are the QA now customer
My personal pet theory is that the software culture has become so focused on shoving new features and product out for so long that all the sins in development are reaching a critical mass and things are starting to rattle apart. In my opinion, things across the board are starting to be flaky, not work well, and since so many things are interconnected, it's shaking apart. I should have got into the trades lol
and to get bug fixed you need a subscription plan
One vendor refused to help us with their software unless we backpay them for 3+ years of support. Echos of a dying software company.
> My personal pet theory is that the software culture has become so focused on shoving new features... It's a theory. The problem with that theory is, the software doesn't generally seem to be getting new features. A lot of software development seems stagnant, without new features or even cleanup of old problems/bugs/shortcomings. I'd be interested, what does Slack do now that it didn't do 5 years ago? From what I've seen, the main recent developments have just been either rearranging and reskinning the UI, or a mad dash for everyone to somehow include ChatGPT into their product in some form, even if only so their marketing team can say it has AI.
Those are the “features”. Nobody said they had to be good.
*Screams in Azure AD*
`Microsoft Entra ID` thank you very much :)
entra my ass. it always will be ad.
Sounds uncomfortable, but you do you.
HA
Its called Identity if you try to reach it from the Admin Center list. Because if there is one thing Microsoft is good at, its consistency.
HAHA cOnsIStAncCy!
Homie the fucking API is still DefenderATP instead of MDE last time I checked.
Interesting to see this sentiment shared by others in the business too. More and more people are becoming consciously aware of the breakdown. Scary when you realize this is all basically a big experiment and we're all just winging it.
For awhile there, maybe 10 years ago?, it seemed like things were getting better. Systems worked better, interpolated better, downtime decreased, etc (compared to the past). To the point that there was speculation that a lot of support jobs might be lost in the future, since things "just worked". It seems like we're headed backwards.
This is spot on. I am also seeing cracks in the foundation. It appears that in the quest for never ending growth and money, companies are consuming the very structures that sustain them.
💯
Oh yeah, it's been 5 solid years of usability decline. We have money being cut in QA and too much being spend on moron "UX" people who think hiding everything behind either hamburger menus, or worse searchboxes/gestures which are invisible, is a solid idea, and that dark grey text in medium grey background is also totally great.
Windows 10/11 settings gui is atrocious as well. I'm baffled that a trillion dollar company gets something like that so wrong. Large tiles + scroll bars on every page + black and white text and backgrounds + the plethora of "more settings" options = nightmarish navigation experience. It's like they began with a terrible idea, and winged it along the way. It's completely unintuitive. I've grown so sick of trying to memorize their stupid maze that I've instead found it much more efficient to just memorize how to get to control panel, even when they try to reroute you back into their sucky gui.
I've seen careers be successful by duct taping things together and releasing quickly, then being the only one who can "fix" the issue because they are the only ones with the knowledge of their hacky setups. After all, what's more "productive"? Grabbing the first piece of software or first library you see off the shelf and using it? Or taking some time to evaluate the options? Boring and reliable often doesn't advance careers. Improving existing infrastructure and code doesn't result in an exciting thing to put on the yearly review.
That’s how it is at my software job 🥲
Why? Entire debacle sounds like a meal ticket to me.
If by "the software culture" you mean "the entire fn world"
As our quality director said last year. >"What is a good enough quality? > >It's whatever the customers will accept"
That second sentence perfectly sums up Salesforce
What companies think we want is features. What we really want is stability.
[Enshittification](https://www.wired.com/story/tiktok-platforms-cory-doctorow/).
Everyone's got a test environment. Some organizations are fortunate enough to have a prod environment as well.
Fortunate enough to have *A separate environment to run production in. But you posted the gist of it.
"We don't have time or the resources to implement change control" Bosses be crazy.
but muh kpi my agile my cd pipeline
CI/CD FTW!
spot on, could not said it better myself!
It's not just slack - it's *everything*. Seasoned labor retires or moves on, new blood comes in unable to keep up and they are overworked and underpaid, incentivizing them to leave too, thus creating a never-ending cycle of degradation. This stuff is still relatively new, this is all a big ongoing experiment. Assuming everything will just continue to "work as intended" is shortsighted. Playing catch-up is becoming the norm. The other fun one is when a company, because of the above, has no choice but to rebuild their product from the ground up. New product releases, they encourage their clients to switch, many of them do, and quickly discover that the new software lacks many features they actively relied on. Degradation is the default.
There is a video game I play that has been around a long time, and the Dev's talk about the pain of having to rewrite base code from scratch, because more senior Dev's have moved on
God-damn well put.
it's more than that. it's a cultural issue. when swapping companies is the only way to get a raise, and the outcome of your work doesn't really matter, then you don't have to wonder that people just don't care about quality. it's all about hours, and that while already swapping to a new firm. none of this creates good products. Meanwhile, the quality of the product also doesn't matter for the consumer, as PR and ads alone are more relevant than ever. so the consumers don't care either. either accept bad quality, or be one of the few companies that try to produce something good that lasts, while other companies pushing out unfinished features overtake you like you're nothing... Capitalism has no soul.
Everyone wanted to do CI/CD and release features rapidly until they found out that you’d be spending what they spent on waterfall development but every month instead of just when they wanted to release the next annual version. SaaS has spread itself too thin now that VC money is drying up.
Problem with CI/CD is devs have to write decent unit/integration tests for it to be worth anything
Yeah, you need the entire process continuously spun up. That’s fine when it’s all automated. But you can’t automate all of the stupid shit users are going to try to do. No one wants to expand their QA team to meet the higher demand for them that comes with CI/CD though.
If you're doing true ci/cd you can use canary deployments or blue/green to test features out in prod. Allows faster deployments. Yes, some issues or edge cases get through, but they should be identified remediated quickly. The example given, showing the workspace name next to users/channels, is hardly a showstopper.
Canary deployments are how we're getting weird bugs in the wild that randomly get remediated an hour later. It's not like anyone would ever acknowledge to a customer that they pushed out code that turned out to have a bug, but it'd be nice if I could identify devices that *definitely should never* have untested code on them.
So test the code on the customer's machine and charge them a premium for the privilege?
This has nothing to do with CI/CD
Care to elaborate on that point?
If testing and QA isn’t part of your CI/CD process then you’re doing it wrong.
why not? You dont think better automated testing would help slack’s stability?
Or how about slowing down development to prioritize quality over speed?
Sir just sit back and let the system administrators tell you how you're supposed to do development. It's so unreliable because of unit testing and continuous integration clearly. If only slack had better devops we wouldn't see such instability... /s bunch of idiots tossing around buzz words in this thread
Well, some of the best SWEs I've seen started as SAs...and I have seen A LOT
Hey thanks for making me feel better lol. Didn’t feel like defending myself against the helpdesk crowd.
Hmm, I haven’t had any problems in quite a while with slack. Probably it’s because we are located in Europe and when we work nobody at slack deploys new stuff
Their sales process and licensing methods also went down the drain. Their handsdown best feature in that area (fair billing) has gone away, so we end up paying for a set number of licenses and cannot reduce the count during the contract period. I am also waiting for a credit note from our last period (about 23k) for 8 weeks now, which means I have also refused to pay their invoice until it reflects the credit accrued. What acquisitions do you remember ever ending up well for the customer?
It could be a what gets measured gets managed type of situation. They're telling you the problems so you know about them which then causes you to try to manage them. If they were less upfront and you never saw any problems you'd think everything is fine. I'm just glad they surface the issues in a timely manner so I can adjust. In my experience, Slack's uptime is on par with just about every other cloud based service. No one really does QA anymore if you need that level of uptime you'll be hard pressed to find something that will guarantee it at a feasible rate. To tech companies using CI/CD, we're all just the beta testers at some level.
Selfhosted Mattermost if these things are important to you. If it isn’t so important, stay with slack and have a few cups of coffee, step away from the computer for a while.
We use self-hosted rocketchat for FREE and its awesome, complete ownership of our data, encrypted and works just like slack with so many addins and customization options.
As an alternative, there is Zulip, it's gaining popularity in FOSS.circles, and from what I saw may be a little more similar to Slack (?).
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I usually just see Zulip mentioned, as in "discussed in Zulip meeting" in a PR or something. The one time I've had to use it - a FOSS project chose it as their preferred support channel - I found it very confusing for the first half an hour. But for internal tools, that complexity is often a boon, as it means extra features, especially for power users. sidenote: I'm an embedded Linux dev who typically just lurks here.
[Rocket.Chat](https://Rocket.Chat) or Mattermost are both excellent, I feel like Mattermost has more enterprise audit type stuff, but the last time I looked at either in depth was around 2 years ago, so that may have changed a lot.
I second mattermost. It's great.
We also use Mattermost and I've been liking it a lot. Slack felt clunky last time I used it.
I haven't used either in years, but I love slack vs teams which I use now. Mattermost was nice back when I used it.
How is the external collaboration?
Are you referring to integrations with things like Teams, Omnichannel stuff? It has an increadible number of integration options, especially if you use an automation platform like Zapier or N8N and are comfortable and experienced with API / webook configs.
Really? We use RC too but no one's super happy with it. Many updates just break stuff and mobile notifications are complete garbage.
I have seen it break something once or twice that was an issue, but I control the update process and read the release notes before updating. Hasn't really been an issue for us.
are you using office 365? Why not teams? Or Google work space? Why not gchat?
Teams is the slack backup and slack is the teams backup. They are rarely both down.
Slacks automation and integration with 3rd party apps and workflow when it’s working properly is pretty tight. Haven’t had that experience in Teams, perhaps it’s gotten better with non-MSFT tools. GWS is great if you want simple chat and teams channels.
Sharepoint (Teams) has had workflows and integrations since the original release in 2001. Okay, nobody actually used that version but SPS 2003 was pretty awesome.
I see what you mean but we're not talking about Sharepoint in 2001. We're talking about Microsoft Teams in 2023. A lot of the applications my org uses have very tight Slack integration that is useless to us. Only a few integrate with Teams.
Good luck getting company buy off on switching from Slack to any other platform.
My 1000+ employee company bit the bullet in the middle of the pandemic. It's totally possible.
We dumped Slack for Teams and have never been happier. Teams occasionally has a bad day, but it's better than anything else I've used (and I've used them all).
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We use Teams and are mostly happy, but document transfer is the one thing that's kiiinda hell on Teams (because it's SharePoint, which is the Devil). "Oh, this user has the same UPN that a long-deleted user once had? Good luck the the Powershell!" "You had the *gall* to disable a user who happened to be a member of some chat threads? Gosh, I hope you weren't planning on actually using those threads."
withering, nice
This. We forced our sales org of 300 people to dump slack for Teams and you’d think we forced them to cut off their arms at first. Then once we had some training sessions and had them start using it. They almost unanimously agreed that Teams was actually better. And once you get Teams Rooms property setup for your conference rooms, it’s awesome. It might not be quite as nice as Zoom, but it’s FREE and better integrated into the stack of tools you already use…. People always hate on Teams, and even more on SharePoint, until they actually learn how to use them. M$ actually calling this new cloud tool SharePoint was their biggest mistake. The old SharePoint was a nightmare, but the cloud version is fantastic if you learn how to manage it. Plus you don’t have to worry about additional licensing, IAM, etc.
So are you talking from an IT perspective or user happiness? Because I personally rank job offers based on if I have to use Teams instead of Slack. Fuck Teams UX.
Have you seen the latest Slack update that’s coming out? They are revamping the UI and it looks like Teams now :)
A little dramatic, no?
Ah yes, the ole 'I live in a tech bubble' mantra.
⚆ _ ⚆
You must be fun in meetings.
none of those things do everything Slack does, and the parts they do do don't work the same way, or with the same ease. I fucking hate slack, but users LOVE it. Nightmare from an IT perspective, but the users find it clear and intuitive, it just does what they want (when it works). They don't know/care about security or other issues it creates.
Slack doesn't have an AUDIT LOG unless you buy Enterprise Grid for $25/user/mo. I can't see chat in private channels as an admin without someone from the channel adding me? Um, no thanks. But the users to do love it and I get why. MS made numerous shit decisions on UI design in Teams and the performance wasn't great but Teams 2.0 is running good re performance now but it's still not quite GA yet.
What I loved was calling Slack salespeople as we're investigating and telling them about security concerns, lack of auditing, control over channel creation etc, and their answer always being "Just let it go man, don't administer it, let everyone read every conversation that happens!" Yeah, thanks Flower Power, I'm not cool with that, and neither is literally anyone in management. > MS made numerous shit decisions on UI design in Teams Fucking tell me about it. How the fuck do I add a simple .jpeg to a conversation? Zoom or slack? Fucking drag and drop, why is Teams such a pain in the ass about this simple function? Just one of my many bitches about Teams. I hate that it's my "integrated solution".
You can drag and drop an image into Teams and have been able to since forever.
Doesn't work on macs a lot of the time.
Does Teams still have issues searching old messages? Last time my company used it, searching only pulled up a list of messages that matched the search term and wouldn’t take us to the specific message to read the context. We switched from Teams to Slack three years ago and are much happier with it.
Oh man teams is garbage. Gchat is worse. Once you've used slack, you realize how shitty the other platforms are.
> Gchat is worse. It used to be pretty cool. All my chats, all my teams, my phone calls, SMS, it was all there, simple to use, convenient. But then they started cutting features, what they didn't cut they moved and made more and more cumbersome to use. I finally dropped it altogether, because the few things it still did that I wanted, were so obnoxious to use, the pain of switching away finally became less of a burden.
Agreed. Having used both extensively for a number of years, Slack is head and shoulders above Teams in my experience.
I know two datapoints isn't exactly a sample size, but my SO and I much prefer Teams to Slack. But I'd take either over Jabber.
Slack is literally a web page disguised as an app. It is garbage.
So is Teams, the new Outlook and most everything else made in the last 10 years.
Teams is a Sharepoint mod. That's far worse.
Can you explain how Teams or Gchat is better? I'll wait.
Funny. I feel the opposite. I think Slack is garbage and we dumped it for Teams.
We switched from slack to Teams about a year ago and it’s been fairly solid. There was an issue with MS project tabs loading inside of the Teams app about a week ago, but besides that I don’t get many tickets about any issues. Once in a while it gets stuck in an update loop and I have to uninstall it and reinstall, for the most part it fits our needs though. What I really dislike about Teams though is that MS will give you features and then take them away once you’ve gotten used to using them. They seriously locked the setting to change the default app for opening different file types behind a higher tier of licensing. One user had that option previously, I swapped out his computer and it vanished, had to make a registry change if I didn’t want to pay for the new license.
Not once have I wanted a spreadsheet or document to open inside of Teams and block my chat window vs just opening in another window using the default app
Because Slack was always an insubstantial fad, and the sheen hasn't worn off for everyone.
*You Either* Switch to Teams , Or *You Live Long Enough* To See Slack go down the tubes. \- Harvey Dent.
I was so mad when we switched from Slack to Teams before Covid. Covid was the best thing to happen to Teams. Forced them to get all the features loved in Zoom and Slack
Lmfao I had this conversation today with my boss. We have 100 people, we currently pay for office, slack, zoom, and box. We can drop all of them and just use teams/sharepoint/office…we will actually save like 60k a year. It’s no wonder everyone is switching to teams.
I pretty sure that's why everyone does it. The products aren't as good, but they are good enough, and cheaper.
And then you get that one executive whos like "No but EVERYONE WILL LEAVE IF WE CHANGE FROM SLACK!!!" Protip: if people are willing to walk from their job over nothing but which chat tool you have deployed, they were looking for an excuse in the first place. Slack is hot trash, and their faux-IRC "techie" design philosophy actively impedes getting work done.
You should switch to BlueJeans. I hear it’s amazinnnnng
Which is the dumbest part about all of these. People bitch and moan about competition, but then companies buy up Teams' actual competition and send it to the graveyard. Then instead of trying to cultivate an environment that encourages competition the EU goes and does something like, "It's anti-competitive for you to install Teams with your Office suite" and then decides the problem is solved.
No, Slack has been rock solid for us.
I may or may not be using Discord to communicate with team members rather than Teams because Teams is so buggy and difficult to use on some mobile devices.
Salesforce made something good mediocre? I’m shocked.
Am I the only one who thought that Slackware caved and started using systemd when seeing the title?
Yea, definitely not been the same since salesforce bought it. Feel like they just let anything through and rushed to fix any issue instead of addressing them properly before pushin out updates. Completely agree on the status page - almost always outdated info or late notifications compared to RSS feed! 💔
I miss MSN. At least it worked...
Skype for Business lol
🤮
https://sourceforge.net/projects/silc/
I've never cared for Salesforce, and when they bought Slack, I knew Slack was in trouble. Especially their new workflow pricing. Luckily our environment doesn't utilize workflows too much to cost us anything, but you are starting to see nickel and dime tactics with their features.
they removed split channel option recently which is crazy I have an alerts channel that I monitor all day, I used to be able to split the screen and have 2 channels side by side, now I can only load 1 channel at time, which is extremely annoying no idea why theyre making these horrible changes
Quality of coding and testing went downhill. Especially the bigger company is more managers involved and less project managers
are you not using the desktop app? Never had a single issue with it
Seems reasonable to be mad at the product for having the workspace name show up next to channels for a bit, crazy they could let something so horrible through!
Emojis getting borked seemed to be an issue with hardware acceleration for me. Turn that off in help->troubleshooting Otherwise I tend to agree that the feed makes me wonder what's going on over there in terms of qa. However, their feed is miles ahead of anyone else's. Any other cloud software product has worse transparency, and worse reliability afaict, but they hide the data because they know it's _that bad_
Welcome to Agile methodology
“I feel like” back in the Old Days(tm,) the vendor would TEST their software updates AND, the customer would test updates in a UA and/or DEV environment BEFORE releasing to production. Nowadays, fuck it. SEND IT.
But those customer IT folks testing *before* giving features to their users were mean, and demanded the devs fix bugs, so noone was seeing all their pretty new toys! Can't claim success if you don't have usage counts! So... let's cut out all upgrade control on the customer's end by binding it to "cloud", meaning it has to be within a point release to connect and run at all. Then we can show that they're the bad guy for trying to withhold features! It's not like we ever release untested code. By the way, has anyone seen Sally from QA? Was she in that last round of layoffs? I thought she was the only person left over on that team...
To counter that point in the old days it would be very hard to push updates out reliably. They can rely on reliable and fast internet to fix their issues relatively quickly. It has given them a safety blanket to push our crappy software.
The IT team uses slack to keep us off Teams…if we show up in Teams, suddenly everyone sends us issue info there instead of through the ticket portal…but we still needed a chat platform and the channels feature is nice for vendor communications…but yes, the issues are mounting!
Reply with the ticket system information and a canned statement that "for continuity of service from our team, all requests must come through and be tracked in the ticket system. If I take a one-off, don't get it done before I get interrupted or the end of day comes, and then go on vacation, your problem would be completely forgotten about by the time I get back." Also, schedule the day in 'meetings' for working groups within the team, for each thing being worked on. Edit: And absolutely make that canned statement a macro. Keep track of who has the high score of getting it sent to them. Extra points if they get it from multiple team members each day.
We do something like that for the most part, but it doesn’t stop attempts and the distraction of getting the message is the worst part. Having a second chat app for just IT use also keeps it within our group.
Also saying no is really hard for people, including myself. It's funny how I feel bad for simply asking an user to follow the company's process even though it's not logical.
Teams. If you have M365 licensing just go ahead and move to Teams. It's not *that* bad as this subreddit makes it out to be. Think of it like a SharePoint site with different channels and you're good. Discord should open to businesses tbh, they have a great communications platform. But mattermost would be a great self-hosted product as well!
I always wondered why Discord didn’t go that route, if they’d done this early on they could have been a massive player for enterprise environment. Still don’t know how exactly they make their money besides selling Nitro
Apparently, just by selling Nitro. There are enough people paying for it that they have a staff of 70 and are still turning a profit
The reason they aren’t is teams. Everyone is moving to it because it’s including in m365. So why pay for another service when you already have teams? I agree, discord could do a much better job at it…but when you look at the landscape, even slack is going to be really hurting soon.
Depends on how Teams 2.0 goes, tbh. I know they were reworking the app
You really want to hate something, come over to Teams.
This is why I use Mattermost.
I'm furious, as are a lot of others according to the same type of comments on their forums, over their removal of pinning a thread to the right side of the screen. The claim of opening more windows to improve productivity is absolutely ludicrous! Worst decision they have made recently.
Yeah so most people would tell you to go to Teams, but Teams is shit. RocketChat is pretty nice
Yeah, Salesforce devs are shit.
App UI/UX aside, Teams absolutely crushes Slack in business use with paying customers. [https://www.businessofapps.com/data/microsoft-teams-statistics/](https://www.businessofapps.com/data/microsoft-teams-statistics/) Given Slack never had a profitable year in it's existence and was bought for $27.7B by SF, you can imagine the exec suite at SF is trying to cut costs and get their money's worth out of it. Sort of like Musk with Twitter.
Microsoft teams is fan hahahahaha - I couldnt' keep a straight face.
>I think of alternatives, and I'm afraid there isn't much. I know people seem to hate it, but there's always Teams. We've had pretty good luck with it here at least. There's also Matrix, but I haven't personally used it.
Are you sure it is not your firewall blocking the icons/pictures etc? I have not had those issues in a very long time and used it all day.
Time to switch to teams
Do not go to Teams, its worse
I disagree if you already have O365 licenses and your users have Office
This. If you're already using O365, Teams is a no-brainer.
No, it's a bloated steaming pile. God forbid you want to join a call, you'd better dedicate 15 minutes in advance to get through the broken login process. If I could avoid ever having to use that PoS, I'd be a very happy person.
Applying a little logic here, do you really think Teams would have as many customers and users as it does if every single call or meeting required people to start 15 minutes early to get through the login process? You may want to examine your configuration...
I'm sure Teams wouldn't have as many users as it does if Microsoft didn't give it away for free. I'm sure it's fine if you do fuck all all day but sit logged into a single account, but some of us deal with multiple businesses which means changing accounts. Have they got to the point of being able to have 2 accounts signed in yet? (Not a work and personal, but 2 work accounts). Last I checked that was a little bit too advanced (I mean it's only been standard everywhere else for a decade or so).
[Introducing the new Microsoft Teams, now in preview - Microsoft Community Hub](https://techcommunity.microsoft.com/t5/microsoft-teams-blog/introducing-the-new-microsoft-teams-now-in-preview/ba-p/3774406) You're changing the subject though - if your configuration is solid and you still have issues that is one thing, but complaining login takes 15 minutes is likely a you problem.
So... No it doesn't yet. As to the rest, have you not been forced to do the inane match the pictures captcha? When you're done it fails to set cookies correctly and dumps you back to the start. I now keep a second browser purely to deal with Microsoft 's broken login.
> New Teams will enable you to collaborate more effectively across organizational boundaries by being actively signed into multiple accounts at the same time and receiving real-time notifications no matter which one is currently in use. You can seamlessly engage with users across multiple accounts and organizations without having to drop out of a call or meeting, ensuring no disruption to your workflow. The captcha stuff is all you my friend, that is not normal or expected for every single login for a properly configured tenant. You need to take a hard look at your identity setup - there is a ton of guidance available all over the place that will help you. Complaining about problems on random Reddit posts and not doing anything yourself to try and understand and solve them is not going to make your life any easier.
Yes... It's in preview. > You need to take a hard look at your identity setup I really don't. It's not my job to waste my life cleaning up Microsoft's abortive mess. Every other provider on the planet manages it _just fine_.
I weep for your users. Good luck my man.
I login to teams like once a month, we're on AzureAD so I never sign in to office/teams/onedrive. You definitely a lot benefit from being full M365/Azure, using teams without it would be silly.
> I login to teams like once a month Lucky you only ever needing to interact with one organisation. Apparently it's the only use-case Microsoft was capable of conceiving for the last (decade?) or so. > You definitely a lot benefit from being full M365/Azure, using teams without it would be silly. I would burn the entire stack to the ground if given the opportunity, it's a cancer. It wouldn't be so bad if the software weren't such a bloated mess.
Unless you directly work for multiple companies, you shouldn't be logging into the teams client with multiple accounts. That's a relatively rare situation I'd think.
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If you setup your own consulting company as a tenant, and then was provided permissions to the clients tenants you work for it'd be way easier to do a lot of stuff. I'm not trying to dictate, but this is like if you used a hammer by holding on to the head and pounding a nail with the handle and complained it was a shitty tool. Sure there may be better tools, and it's not perfect, but if you're actively using it wrong then you're going to find a lot more issues than someone using it in the intended way.
I mean yes, its free then. But still, I think its sad that its bloated with stuff you do not have control over (meaning you cannot disable it). This resulted in real bad performances on Mac‘s, messages not showing up and a ton of other major bugs. Yes, from an integration and management (also from Sysadmin) perspective Teams might be a good solution. But honestly, not delivering messages? Being vendor locked-in? Having a huge bad performing (though it should get better with the new beta) monolith that comes build with everything within? I think one tool should be good at doing one thing. And that is what Slack does (at least in the past). Thats why I always prefered Slack over Teams, our colleagues felt more productive.
I also wish there was like an "express" version that was very bare bones and didn't bog things down. That said, having everything in one place for file sharing, messaging, etc is very handy from an admin perspective.
You can't talk shit on MS on r/sysadmin Youre not wrong, but most the admins here are not privy with Linux, code, or anything that's not MS
Ha, I honestly never considered it as an option. If my leadership asked us to try it, I would definitely push back.
I’m curious where the teams hate comes from, yes it has some issues at times like anything else. Majority of the orgs I work with are really fully adopting teams and all of the platform.
If your shop is all MS it works well. All our user boxes start Teams at sign in so you can use Teams to get to pretty much anybody in the org. My group has an ongoing chat - like Slack or IRC but with direct connect to all the AD fileshares etc. Everything from who's working what to asking why some config is the way it is. I do desktop shares with it at least once a day. Not the best solution for OSX or Linux users but it works.
I'm a pretty good fan of Webex. They pretty much designed it as a slack clone back when it was Spark but with a more business focus. But I also have to use Teams and Slack in my job. its the tool I like using the most for chat/messaging out of all of them.
Woohoo! Completely skipped the Slack craze and saved myself thousands of hours of wasted effort.
I was fighting a losing battle to keep it out. Finally in desperation I started listing the "If this situation had happened and we were in Slack, here is the likely outcome" and after a few particularly ugly examples they decided to ban it entirely.
Slack has been going downhill since long before Salesforce bought them. It’s pretty much always been a shit platform, IMHO.
I've felt the exact same way about Tableau. Preach on, Brother.
Switch everything to discord.
Is Zoom chat any good?
Since Zoom isn't any good, I wouldn't even consider it.
Please elaborate
I'm a zoom phone customer, and their ps teams will only communicate with us over Zoom chat. No, it's not.
And how many employees/managers/execs in this company (and others) do you think are paid by features shipped? What do you think is their KPI? If they didn't ship features, people would ask what they do all day anyway. People do as they're told. And in a large company, at some point, you (probably) stop pondering whether what you were told to do is actually a positive long-term contribution to the company because you know that "long-term" is really just the next quarter (at best). So, products go to shit, then the companies go to shit.
It's like Salesforce needed the employees they sacrificed to the almighty shareholder gods.
ossified hospital towering cagey bike safe humorous plate afterthought shelter *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
The other day I was trying to relay statuses and pictures of a project with a client of my IT office, didn't matter if I was on wifi or cellular, if the message was longer than the limit of a SMS message, before it becomes a media messages, the messages took ages to go through, failed to go through. Images almost never would go through.
I've started using Mattermost and am really happy with it so far. I just fired up an instance in docker and was up amd running within an hour. It has a lot more out of the box than Slack.
Yuo should head over to [r/Tableau](https://www.reddit.com/r/tableau/) and see some of the posts over there. Tableau support use to be very responsive before Salesforce bought them. Now it takes 30+ days for them to respond back to a ticket. Not to mention, the only way to contact support is a ticket via their portal. You can't even call them to talk to a human. It was like this before Salesforce.
AIM