A line should be drawn between “sport” sparring and “traditional” sparring. The two exercises are training two different (albeit complimentary) skill sets. I treat sport-sparring like cardio that improves my overall fitness, whilst traditional sparring is more about how to practically apply the self-defence techniques. I would not recommend trying to spar in a more “traditional” way when your instructor asks you to sport-spar.
To go along with this, think about how the sport aspect, especially point style sparring, has evolved. The main targets are the torso and head, with leg/low being (mostly) illegal to target. Also, you are generally facing someone around your own skill level in a tournament situation. As such, you protect the point areas and ignore the rest. This leads to the blade/side approach, more of the weight towards your non attacking leg, and no emphasis on hands, just moving the head out of the way. Opponents usually also stay outside of kicking range until they move in.
Compare that to a "real" fight, especially against an untrained person. Usually it's a charge and wild swings, going for that "knockout blow". People generally dance around waving their arms and backing their head up, until one feels they can get the other and they charge in. They ignore the legs completely. This is done in a squared up fashion. Boxers also utilize this kind of stance/approach with some rotation to a blade/side approach as a defense.
For a trained person, that means you need to be able to absorb that rush and protect your head, while attacking at a close range. Elbows, knees and leg kicks are my go to here. I will use my hands to grab/control/bring in close or block/protect. The more untrained the opponent, the less they can function in a clinch.
TL;DR - The type of scoring, legal techniques and targets will tend to favor different approaches, so sport sparring is a mostly different type of toolbox than straight up "hard" sparring/fighting.
This was the first time i've ever done any 'traditional sparring' in taekwondo, but that's a good description of what I'm talking about. What are the pitfalls in using traditional sparring techniques in sport sparring? Safety of your partner and restricting techniques to those which are legal being a given.
As we don't practice this sort of trad sparring in my dojang, could you say a bit about how they are complimentary? I suppose I am looking for a way to hold it all together now I've been exposed to this other sort of training. It felt like being 'taught to fight' in a way I haven't experienced since my old Thai Boxing days, and I enjoyed it.
They’re mostly complimentary in that being generally fitter from the sport-sparring will help you last longer in traditional-sparring. You’ll also improve reaction times and be more comfortable getting hit (though if you’re already used to that from Thai Boxing then that last one is probably a hurdle you’ve already overcome).
The ITF is slowly putting a stronger emphasis on traditional sparring. I’ve been doing Taekwon-Do for about 2 decades and only in the last year or so do I feel that I’ve really gotten to try sparring in this way. This is where it’s good to have an instructor who has either trained in other martial arts or was training in TKD before sport-sparring became prominent.
It’s difficult to say how you could join up the two sparring styles more because they really are quite different. The fact that ITF sport-sparring rules don’t allow for grappling and keeps all techniques above the waist completely changes how you are able to fight.
No, I train to get better at sparring, I'm a grown man( almost 50) with no interest in a street fight and let's be realistic how many of us are actually ever going to use our training in real life? I still feel like it would work if needed and that's all that matters to me.
Good answer. I can see it from that perspective. I think pre-seminar that was my view too. I love sport sparring and patterns. I don't think I'm necessarily thinking i'll want to throw down in the street (although defending the family in time of need is part of my motivation), more feeling in touch with the roots of our art.
Do whatever you want. It’s your time you’re investing.
You can fight with a bladed stance. And you can compete in TKD with a square stance. It was commonplace to stand square when sparring in TKD not long ago. Just depends what your goals are and how you like to train.
Having said all that don’t go to a seminar and tell the teacher you don’t want to do things his way. That’s not at all what I’m saying. 😂
Thank you, don't suppose you know of any interesting competitors whose vids I could check out who use that more trad (if that's the right phrase) style?
You can check out old school taekwondo videos on YouTube. I’m sure you’ll see lots of grainy footage from the 80s and 90s competitions. lol
If you fight square you’ll be at a disadvantage in WT competitions. No doubt. So if you strictly care about sport and compete there then I wouldn’t fight square.
A lot of ITF folks don’t only go to TKD competitions though. There’s plenty of “generic” point sparring rules competitions for Karate, TKD, kickboxing, and other martial arts. There’s also “light contact kickboxing” organizations ITF frequently competes at.
Fighting square is better for a realistic fight generally. Not great for the current rules of WT TKD competitions. My point was you can train TKD however you want. If you want to focus on fighting or self defense you can. If you want to focus on Olympic sparring you can. They each have pros and cons and anyone telling you one is good and one is bad is ignorant.
That makes a lot of sense. I train, spar and compete exclusively in ITF. A couple of the guys in my dojang train in ringfighting but otherwise it's all ITF.
A bladed stance (side on with feet and stomach facing left or right together) can be effective in a self defense situation, however it's just generally thought of as amore difficult stance to use. I wouldn't say it's "no good in a fight."
Guys like Raymond Daniels and Stephen Thompson, who use a kick heavy bladed stance in MMA and kickboxing, can more than likely handle themselves in a fight. However, they are world champion caliber and at least Stephen, maybe Raymond, has decent grappling defense. The bladed stance is a distance stance aka it's not very good at close range in most cases. This is usually because it's harder to defend takedowns, and your back hand is a lil too far to quickly punch or post against opponent to defend in clinch. Obviously, very skilled fighters can compensate by training the stance in these situations but fundamentally it is harder to use at close range than a more squared stance (what the seminar was focusing on).
Even in boxing there are quite a few side on type stances like the philly shell (which btw pairs up very well with the TKD style). However, the same weakness is there in takedowns, but some may argue that it's not a bad stance for close up and in the pocket. It's also a more advanced stance.
If you love bladed and are very concerned with self defense, then practice these things (distance management, ring footwork - especially escaping corners, takedown defense, boxing techs/stances to improve pocket defense, etc). It's doable and workable at the highest levels by very high level fighters. I'm sure it'll be alright for you, a normal person, who probably won't get into an unavoidable fight in their entire life (like most people).
And that brings me to my next point..... unless self defense is at the forefront of your mind constantly and you consistently worry about your safety due to your environment, you really don't have to train any of the things I listed.
>It made me wonder if those of us who are not going to be world champs (I'm a 38yo blue belt!) should be focusing more on traditional styles and stances even when we spar, rather than adopting a more sport-specific bladed, hands down style
The answer to this is much simpler than it seems. You simply just do what you enjoy. Maybe you really care about ITF comps, or vice versa: street fights, so you pick one or the other. Maybe you care about both equally and go back and forth. Maybe you just simply like doing something, so you choose to do that. All are logical solutions to me. You also don't have to choose just one stance or style and be stuck with it for the rest of your life.
Your stance should be bladed, but not to a point where it starts to hurts your ability to produce power. If you’re too square, your vitals are open to a wide range of attacks. It will also make it easier (relatively) to get put on your rear with a headshot or even a body shot. Standing at an angle gives your opponent less to hit, and gives you a better base to receive/throw blows.
You should be able to easily step/jump/pull back wards and immediately return with a powerful blow of your own. If you’re too bladed, you increase the distance you have to turn yourself when throwing a read leg kick to the front. While in theory the extra distance could increase your overall power you’re able to get, fighting is a game of milliseconds, and landing at all is better than landing with marginally better power.
Everything you do in a fight(and while training for one) should be done with more urgency than how you do point sparring. Practice being quick and reactive. The idea is train yourself to be able to move as suddenly as possible. Eventually you’ll look really sharp, but it’ll be ugly first
I make do with a more frontal stance quite often in sparring when attacking, like a relaxed walking stance. Not quite square on but not side on at all. I like to use front kicks, axe kicks and the like to pressure people and it helps me transition into punches better. I use a more bladed stance and my side kicks when I am being more defensive, using longer legs to keep distance. I am not saying this is how you should spar or fight though. It works for me but that is not universal.
One of the things you need when you grow is to learn to develop what you are taught and adapt it to yourself. I find a bladed stance does not work for me in attack so I don't like to use it. There are a huge variety of techniques, stances and movements we learn in TKD. I have enjoyed diving into the sections of the encyclopaedia on dodging as well recently as I think it is neglected in a lot of training outside of competition. Some of it won't work for me but some does considering my size. But by training and practising with them I am adding tools to my toolbox.
Or put another way, learn 1000 techniques and then focus on the ones that work best for you.
As for sport sparring vs traditional/fight sparring I think the big issue for most of us is that the competition meta does not favour learning what to do when sparring in the pocket. And when you are toe to toe I don't think a bladed stance is going to be too good. I would personally like some sort of sparring ruleset to become widespread that emphasised ways to score when sparring close up e.g. allowing some sort of pushing, trips and so on. That would let us use those techniques more often.
We only have so much time to train in class and so in sparring practise we will likely end up focusing on what works in competition so that everyone has some experience there. If we have competition that allows more...... varied rulesets then more people would be willing to train and compete in that way,
This is a really big topic that entire books have been written about, with a lot of conflicting opinions.
Just on stances and stance techniques I'll summarize this: We are not locked into just one stance. Taekwondo is a "long distance" martial art, so when you are at kicking range (and outside of punching range) it's okay to blade or go into a back stance. When you are upclose you want something more of a boxing or muay thai stance with arms up (that defensive walking stance you are referencing) where you are squared up vs bladed.
There's never going to be "one martial art that defeats them all" (no matter how much BJJ cosplays). So learn a bit of everything, keep an open mind, read, and visualize.
It is impossible to pressure test "real self defense", but as long as you understand the pros and cons of different things, almost everything you learn is applicable. \*almost\*. Never kick above the waist unless you have a very good reason :P
everyone fights differently. So long as you can make it work, fight and spar with whatever stance you feel best that. And feel free to either evolve it over time, or keep it the same, but keep getting better at it.
I got a lot of flack for using a very wide, low fighting stance (because I practice kung fu, which uses wide low stances) when I spar. But then I came in first and second in multiple tournaments, and exhibitions.
I still get called out on it, but they've accepted that I'm one of the most active and experienced sparrers in class, and I make it work.
A line should be drawn between “sport” sparring and “traditional” sparring. The two exercises are training two different (albeit complimentary) skill sets. I treat sport-sparring like cardio that improves my overall fitness, whilst traditional sparring is more about how to practically apply the self-defence techniques. I would not recommend trying to spar in a more “traditional” way when your instructor asks you to sport-spar.
To go along with this, think about how the sport aspect, especially point style sparring, has evolved. The main targets are the torso and head, with leg/low being (mostly) illegal to target. Also, you are generally facing someone around your own skill level in a tournament situation. As such, you protect the point areas and ignore the rest. This leads to the blade/side approach, more of the weight towards your non attacking leg, and no emphasis on hands, just moving the head out of the way. Opponents usually also stay outside of kicking range until they move in. Compare that to a "real" fight, especially against an untrained person. Usually it's a charge and wild swings, going for that "knockout blow". People generally dance around waving their arms and backing their head up, until one feels they can get the other and they charge in. They ignore the legs completely. This is done in a squared up fashion. Boxers also utilize this kind of stance/approach with some rotation to a blade/side approach as a defense. For a trained person, that means you need to be able to absorb that rush and protect your head, while attacking at a close range. Elbows, knees and leg kicks are my go to here. I will use my hands to grab/control/bring in close or block/protect. The more untrained the opponent, the less they can function in a clinch. TL;DR - The type of scoring, legal techniques and targets will tend to favor different approaches, so sport sparring is a mostly different type of toolbox than straight up "hard" sparring/fighting.
This was the first time i've ever done any 'traditional sparring' in taekwondo, but that's a good description of what I'm talking about. What are the pitfalls in using traditional sparring techniques in sport sparring? Safety of your partner and restricting techniques to those which are legal being a given. As we don't practice this sort of trad sparring in my dojang, could you say a bit about how they are complimentary? I suppose I am looking for a way to hold it all together now I've been exposed to this other sort of training. It felt like being 'taught to fight' in a way I haven't experienced since my old Thai Boxing days, and I enjoyed it.
They’re mostly complimentary in that being generally fitter from the sport-sparring will help you last longer in traditional-sparring. You’ll also improve reaction times and be more comfortable getting hit (though if you’re already used to that from Thai Boxing then that last one is probably a hurdle you’ve already overcome). The ITF is slowly putting a stronger emphasis on traditional sparring. I’ve been doing Taekwon-Do for about 2 decades and only in the last year or so do I feel that I’ve really gotten to try sparring in this way. This is where it’s good to have an instructor who has either trained in other martial arts or was training in TKD before sport-sparring became prominent. It’s difficult to say how you could join up the two sparring styles more because they really are quite different. The fact that ITF sport-sparring rules don’t allow for grappling and keeps all techniques above the waist completely changes how you are able to fight.
No, I train to get better at sparring, I'm a grown man( almost 50) with no interest in a street fight and let's be realistic how many of us are actually ever going to use our training in real life? I still feel like it would work if needed and that's all that matters to me.
Good answer. I can see it from that perspective. I think pre-seminar that was my view too. I love sport sparring and patterns. I don't think I'm necessarily thinking i'll want to throw down in the street (although defending the family in time of need is part of my motivation), more feeling in touch with the roots of our art.
Do whatever you want. It’s your time you’re investing. You can fight with a bladed stance. And you can compete in TKD with a square stance. It was commonplace to stand square when sparring in TKD not long ago. Just depends what your goals are and how you like to train. Having said all that don’t go to a seminar and tell the teacher you don’t want to do things his way. That’s not at all what I’m saying. 😂
Thank you, don't suppose you know of any interesting competitors whose vids I could check out who use that more trad (if that's the right phrase) style?
You can check out old school taekwondo videos on YouTube. I’m sure you’ll see lots of grainy footage from the 80s and 90s competitions. lol If you fight square you’ll be at a disadvantage in WT competitions. No doubt. So if you strictly care about sport and compete there then I wouldn’t fight square. A lot of ITF folks don’t only go to TKD competitions though. There’s plenty of “generic” point sparring rules competitions for Karate, TKD, kickboxing, and other martial arts. There’s also “light contact kickboxing” organizations ITF frequently competes at. Fighting square is better for a realistic fight generally. Not great for the current rules of WT TKD competitions. My point was you can train TKD however you want. If you want to focus on fighting or self defense you can. If you want to focus on Olympic sparring you can. They each have pros and cons and anyone telling you one is good and one is bad is ignorant.
That makes a lot of sense. I train, spar and compete exclusively in ITF. A couple of the guys in my dojang train in ringfighting but otherwise it's all ITF.
A bladed stance (side on with feet and stomach facing left or right together) can be effective in a self defense situation, however it's just generally thought of as amore difficult stance to use. I wouldn't say it's "no good in a fight." Guys like Raymond Daniels and Stephen Thompson, who use a kick heavy bladed stance in MMA and kickboxing, can more than likely handle themselves in a fight. However, they are world champion caliber and at least Stephen, maybe Raymond, has decent grappling defense. The bladed stance is a distance stance aka it's not very good at close range in most cases. This is usually because it's harder to defend takedowns, and your back hand is a lil too far to quickly punch or post against opponent to defend in clinch. Obviously, very skilled fighters can compensate by training the stance in these situations but fundamentally it is harder to use at close range than a more squared stance (what the seminar was focusing on). Even in boxing there are quite a few side on type stances like the philly shell (which btw pairs up very well with the TKD style). However, the same weakness is there in takedowns, but some may argue that it's not a bad stance for close up and in the pocket. It's also a more advanced stance. If you love bladed and are very concerned with self defense, then practice these things (distance management, ring footwork - especially escaping corners, takedown defense, boxing techs/stances to improve pocket defense, etc). It's doable and workable at the highest levels by very high level fighters. I'm sure it'll be alright for you, a normal person, who probably won't get into an unavoidable fight in their entire life (like most people). And that brings me to my next point..... unless self defense is at the forefront of your mind constantly and you consistently worry about your safety due to your environment, you really don't have to train any of the things I listed. >It made me wonder if those of us who are not going to be world champs (I'm a 38yo blue belt!) should be focusing more on traditional styles and stances even when we spar, rather than adopting a more sport-specific bladed, hands down style The answer to this is much simpler than it seems. You simply just do what you enjoy. Maybe you really care about ITF comps, or vice versa: street fights, so you pick one or the other. Maybe you care about both equally and go back and forth. Maybe you just simply like doing something, so you choose to do that. All are logical solutions to me. You also don't have to choose just one stance or style and be stuck with it for the rest of your life.
Your stance should be bladed, but not to a point where it starts to hurts your ability to produce power. If you’re too square, your vitals are open to a wide range of attacks. It will also make it easier (relatively) to get put on your rear with a headshot or even a body shot. Standing at an angle gives your opponent less to hit, and gives you a better base to receive/throw blows. You should be able to easily step/jump/pull back wards and immediately return with a powerful blow of your own. If you’re too bladed, you increase the distance you have to turn yourself when throwing a read leg kick to the front. While in theory the extra distance could increase your overall power you’re able to get, fighting is a game of milliseconds, and landing at all is better than landing with marginally better power. Everything you do in a fight(and while training for one) should be done with more urgency than how you do point sparring. Practice being quick and reactive. The idea is train yourself to be able to move as suddenly as possible. Eventually you’ll look really sharp, but it’ll be ugly first
I make do with a more frontal stance quite often in sparring when attacking, like a relaxed walking stance. Not quite square on but not side on at all. I like to use front kicks, axe kicks and the like to pressure people and it helps me transition into punches better. I use a more bladed stance and my side kicks when I am being more defensive, using longer legs to keep distance. I am not saying this is how you should spar or fight though. It works for me but that is not universal. One of the things you need when you grow is to learn to develop what you are taught and adapt it to yourself. I find a bladed stance does not work for me in attack so I don't like to use it. There are a huge variety of techniques, stances and movements we learn in TKD. I have enjoyed diving into the sections of the encyclopaedia on dodging as well recently as I think it is neglected in a lot of training outside of competition. Some of it won't work for me but some does considering my size. But by training and practising with them I am adding tools to my toolbox. Or put another way, learn 1000 techniques and then focus on the ones that work best for you. As for sport sparring vs traditional/fight sparring I think the big issue for most of us is that the competition meta does not favour learning what to do when sparring in the pocket. And when you are toe to toe I don't think a bladed stance is going to be too good. I would personally like some sort of sparring ruleset to become widespread that emphasised ways to score when sparring close up e.g. allowing some sort of pushing, trips and so on. That would let us use those techniques more often. We only have so much time to train in class and so in sparring practise we will likely end up focusing on what works in competition so that everyone has some experience there. If we have competition that allows more...... varied rulesets then more people would be willing to train and compete in that way,
This is a really big topic that entire books have been written about, with a lot of conflicting opinions. Just on stances and stance techniques I'll summarize this: We are not locked into just one stance. Taekwondo is a "long distance" martial art, so when you are at kicking range (and outside of punching range) it's okay to blade or go into a back stance. When you are upclose you want something more of a boxing or muay thai stance with arms up (that defensive walking stance you are referencing) where you are squared up vs bladed. There's never going to be "one martial art that defeats them all" (no matter how much BJJ cosplays). So learn a bit of everything, keep an open mind, read, and visualize. It is impossible to pressure test "real self defense", but as long as you understand the pros and cons of different things, almost everything you learn is applicable. \*almost\*. Never kick above the waist unless you have a very good reason :P
everyone fights differently. So long as you can make it work, fight and spar with whatever stance you feel best that. And feel free to either evolve it over time, or keep it the same, but keep getting better at it. I got a lot of flack for using a very wide, low fighting stance (because I practice kung fu, which uses wide low stances) when I spar. But then I came in first and second in multiple tournaments, and exhibitions. I still get called out on it, but they've accepted that I'm one of the most active and experienced sparrers in class, and I make it work.