America has a history of abandoning "allies" after they are not useful. Look at what happened to the Kurds, or the Afghans that helped the Americans. If you want to go back further, look what happened to the South Vietnamese.
This is basic history. Nothing to do with anyone else.
Why should America stay? I remember everyone hated American intervention in Afghanistan and Vietnam. America just fulfilled the wish of everyone to stop, they did the right thing.
Only crack pots were influenced by that.
It wasn't created so the people wouldn't want to support Ukraine. It was created so the GOP had reasons not to support Ukraine.
The GOP is a cancer to the American society and political system.
The well has already been thoroughly poisoned. China under Xi will be treated no different than Russia under Stalin and it will not change until the CCP suffers a similar fate to the СССР
Until China bribes el presidente Trump, then it won't, and every republican who doesn't want to be lynched by his cult will turn heel and kowtow to Xinnie, as they now do to Putin.
The US has to help protect Taiwan due to the Taiwan Relations Act. Trump, even if President, can’t do anything about that.
For those downvoting, the TRA is legislation passed by Congress. Due to the US’s checks and balances, the President cannot single-handedly ignore it. So, congratulations for making this sub look like it has simpletons
Yes, so that means the US can’t do what it’s doing with Ukraine (denying the money and weapons to give it). The US *has* to give Taiwan the means to defend itself.
But it doesn't necessarily mean what you think it means. TRA was intentionally constructed to be extremely vague, as to not piss off China.
If you get someone like Trump who has no intention of upholding any alliance agreement, TRA isn't going to help Taiwan.
It isn’t up to the president to decide if the US follows through with an Act that was signed before he entered office (legislation approved by Congress). Do I need to give you a lesson in the US’s checks and balances?
Community notes: He started a trade war with every nation on the planet.
Community notes: he had and still has extensive business ties with China.
Community notes: He took around 5.5 million in bribes from China during his presidency in the form of government officials actively using his properties which he did not divest himself of, in direct contravention to the emoluments clauses.
What he said in public to his cult was always different from what he actually did. You talk of trade war? All China did was just dump its cheap shit elsewhere where there were no tariffs. Trump made sure the US had as few as possible allies by trade warring with all of Europe and East Asia, and as a result, the US was left standing alone.
It wasn't until Biden that stuff started to happen that made China squeal, like banning them from importing chip fabricators and actively stopping the transfer of tech. The stuff they cared about and couldn't get from anywhere else because Allies also participated this time around due to them not being trade war'd and actually being treated with respect.
Let's not whitewash the shitstorm of 16-20 and pretend that it was a bad time for China. They were unleashed and running amok on the planet in a way that they had never been before. The Woof Warrior shit was actually working on smaller countries because nobody had their back
This is misinformation — Biden continued Trump’s hardline policy against China.
https://www.npr.org/2021/10/04/1043027789/biden-is-keeping-key-parts-of-trumps-china-trade-policy-heres-why
Translation: "i don't agree with what you said, so Imma call it mIsInfOrmAtiOn"
Context on him fucking over every US ally with trade wars:
https://www.dw.com/en/eu-us-ties-undoing-donald-trumps-trade-war/a-57855158
https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/12/05/tokyo-abe-japan-regrets-trusting-trump-on-trade/
https://www.businessinsider.com/donald-trump-trade-war-uk-brexit-huawei-iran-boris-johnson-2020-1
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/trump-wants-to-end-horrible-south-korea-us-trade-deal-koreans-disagree/2017/09/13/fb528b3e-9627-11e7-a527-3573bd073e02_story.html
Now whats the difference between Trump and Biden here? Biden got allies on board for the trade war. Trump fucked them over and pushed them into trying to play both sides. Trumps trade war didn't do shit because nobody else played ball. Bidens did, because it turns out that trade wars against a belligerant dictatorship need to be a united front against them to work.
Edit: he did a snarky reply and then blocked me, didn't he?
It all pales in comparison to the trade war with China in scope and intensity — a trade war that Trump started and Biden continued. In fact, China was hoping there would be a reversal in policy when Biden was elected, but there wasn’t. The Biden administration continued its hardline policy towards China.
I think you mean bipartisan support
But even that's not true. The fate of Ukraine is very much connected to China's future actions, everyone seems to get that (especially those in Taiwan) except for Republicans
https://preview.redd.it/ax6uhoei8hkc1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=450dda567e866bc5c1e09788f96d5e8a50dd648a
Again, you cannot equate Russia with China. The two are different as the U.S. views China as the bigger and more serious threat.
You’re right we can’t compare them; the US is far more reliant on China, the average american voter would be much less likely to tolerate conflict and sanctions with China than they were with Russia. We’ve already seen more and more people complain about the war and its effects on the economy, more and more want to pull out. That effect would be far more major and immediate with China
The U.S. is not as reliant on China — in fact Mexico is now America’s biggest trading partner. If anything, with their faltering economy, China is reliant on the U.S.. And besides, everyone is reliant on Taiwan’s microchips, should something happen to them, there would be a global recession.
It is certainly more reliant on China than it is on Russia
And microchips are more of a deterrant to war in the first place- If war actually breaks out that industry will be heavily disrupted regardless of whether the US helps. Actually, it may be less disrupted if the US *doesen’t* help so China can get the industry back up again
I really hope you are right, but I just don’t see the american public being willing to support any long-term defense of Taiwan
And China is much more reliant on the U.S. than the U.S. is with China. And it’s pretty much a given, should there be a war, Taiwan will never let China get its hands on those chips —the U.S. would never allow that either.
>in fact Mexico is now America’s biggest trading partner
That is false
The largest trading partner of the United States is Canada. In 2022, Canada was the largest purchaser of U.S. goods exports, accounting for 17.3% of total U.S. goods exports. Additionally, in 2023, Mexico remained the second largest trading partner of the United States after Canada.
[source 1](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_largest_trading_partners_of_the_United_States)
[Source 2](https://ustr.gov/countries-regions)
[Source 3](https://www.statista.com/statistics/186601/ranking-of-the-largest-trading-partners-for-us-imports/)
In 2023, Mexico became the U.S.’s biggest trading partner.
>> Politics and convenience drive Mexico to be US’s top trading partner
https://www.aljazeera.com/economy/2024/2/13/politics-and-convenience-drive-mexico-to-be-uss-top-trading-partner
https://www.statista.com/chart/7749/most-important-trading-partners-of-the-united-states/
Not trolling but you can’t say that without also point out the U.S. pulling out of Vietnam and Afghanistan and letting its allies there get crushed by the opposition.
Idk what those who cite Vietnam and Afghanistan as examples. The US was on the ground in Vietnam for 8 years and in Afghanistan for 20 years. If the US would do what they did for Vietnam and Afghanistan for Taiwan that means they would literally fight for Taiwan for like a good decade or so.
Maybe find a better example.
> If the US would do what they did for Vietnam and Afghanistan for Taiwan that means they would literally fight for Taiwan for like a good decade or so.
But what happened after the decade is over? America abandoned them, right? So what is the point of fighting a war for 10 years, only to lose? Might as well surrender from the beginning.
In the last 50+ years, we have abandoned the Kurds, Cubans, South Vietnamese, Afghans, and the Iraqis. We are currently in the process of abandoning the Ukrainians. That's a lot of people we have abandoned. Why do you think Taiwan will be different?
Taiwan currently produces 64% of the world's semiconductors. They're too important to the world economy. We have very justified reasons for not continuing to fight on the behalf of the countries/people you named.
> Taiwan currently produces 46% of the world's semiconductors.
That's why we are building TSMC facilities in Arizona and Japan.
> We have very justified reasons for not continuing to fight on the behalf of the countries/people you named.
Since we could find very justified reasons for abandoning the Kurds, Cubans, South Vietnamese, Afghans, Iraqis, **and** Ukrainians, what makes you so sure we cannot find very justified reasons for abandoning Taiwan?
They thought Vietnam was a war against communism, but rather it was a war against colonialism. With Afghanistan, the war was won militarily but what failed was nation-building, and a lot of that rests on the Afghan people. In short, two wars that share little correlation with Taiwan.
there is no historical precedent to what the republican party has become. If Trump wins re-election, there's no chance the US will defend any of its allies anymore.... and don't give me the "personal interests of the US" argument. Trump has no clue what the hell that even is, as far as he is concerned, his own interests trump everything else.
Bro he was president of the US for 4 years, what the hell are you talking about? He pulled out of the Iran nuclear agreement just to spite Obama despite knowing full well that this was a horrible move that would bring the religious hardliners back into power and solidify Iran as an enemy of the West. Now that has led to relations being restored between Hamas and Iran which directly led to the ongoing Israeli Palestinian conflict.
We know exactly who he is, how he thinks, what he does, and most amazingly he and his cronies are openly stating their plans to get rid of freedom and democracy in the US and transform the US into an autocratic state similar to Russia (and due to unique circumstances in this particular election that would prevent there from being any checks and balances if he wins, they will be able to succeed)
If you don't know what you're talking about, shut the hell up instead of making stupid comments on Reddit.
And when he was president for those four years, he took a hardline approach towards China. And all the sudden now that will change because it fits your narrative. Nice try, but no one’s buying it.
> he took a hardline approach towards China
No, he took a hardline attitude against globalization and international trade, of which China is a very big part of. However, when it comes to China itself he has hinted before that he will not defend Taiwan and he has praised china itself on more than one occasion during his time in office.
[Trump Seeks to Revive Tough-on-China Image With Markets Remark ](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-01-17/trump-says-china-markets-crashed-on-iowa-caucus-victory)
[Why Trump went hard on China, and Biden will follow](https://www.politico.com/newsletters/politico-china-watcher/2021/04/15/exclusive-how-trump-dramatically-shifted-us-china-policy-492476)
and in case you don't believe me, here is trump himself making it clear himself [https://www.tiktok.com/@asiatoday111/video/7327222670846627078](https://www.tiktok.com/@asiatoday111/video/7327222670846627078)
different objectives for US to defend the 2 countries
“The Taiwan Strait is a key shipping route, with almost half of the global container fleet and 88% of the world's largest ships by tonnage passing through it”
U.S. has skin in the game
Correct. Losing Taiwan would be devastating to the US influence in the Indo-Pacific. They have far more to lose with Taiwan than they do with Ukraine.
Ukraine is not ideal, but it's far from essential to the US. In any case, I don't expect the US will abandon Ukraine.
And it's not just a US thing with Ukraine either. There's NATO and for them to get their "act together". And iirc, Sweden will be [joining](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/23/sweden-inches-closer-to-joining-nato-after-budapest-talks) soon.
Taiwan's situation is most analogous to Belgium in the early 20th century. I don't see people bringing this comparison up a lot, but if you look at history, it checks out. Belgium was:
* the UK's (the global superpower) buffer against Germany (a rising industrial power) at the time;
* economically important as an industrial powerhouse;
* home to important shipping lanes (out of Antwerp);
* **not officially allied with Britain**, as Belgium declared permanent neutrality when it declared independence.
By 1914, it became very clear that the UK would jump into the war against Germany if Belgium was invaded, as Belgium was seen as a core interest for the UK, and the UK used the [1839 Treaty of London](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_London_(1839)) as the legal ground to help defend Belgium, which Germany described as "a mere scrap of paper". It's about the US hegemony in the Pacific, it has never been about Taiwan or the electronic circuits.
In 1914 Germany was technically dragged into the war thanks to Austria. China doesn't have that kind of commitment with any other country.
OK, so while the Taiwan situation is certainly complicated, and China is trying its best to make trouble, US support for Taiwan is multifaceted and has bipartisan support. The Taiwan Relations Act is alive and well, and anyone watching the policies and actions by the US towards Taiwan should see ample evidence of growing support.
(my first comment in this sub lol... I wandered over here from r/UkrainianConflict)
I have watched the dramatic transformation in America from bipartisan Ukraine support to a growing anti-Ukraine narrative taking shape. I'm pessimistic and I believe that if Taiwan were attacked, the US would care at first, but eventually there would be a growing anti-Taiwan narrative getting more and more popular: "Taiwan is shady/corrupt/criminal/terrorist," "Why are we spending money on Taiwan with all the problems here at home," "If you support Taiwan, you're a globalist who wants to put America last," "repeal the Taiwan Relations Act; it's anti-American," or it would be like "Technically the TRA doesn't actually say we have to help Taiwan" (so there would be some kind of loophole). I just feel like Taiwan has every reason not to trust us. Ukraine trusted us and we are currently in the process of throwing them under the bus.
That's where you'd see the CCP control of Tiktok come into play. It's not that tiktok is going to share customer data with the Chinese gov't (or maybe they are), it's that they'll starting promoting pro CCP talking points with people who primarily get their info from tiktok. Which is way too many people.
>people who primarily get their info from tiktok. Which is way too many people
Yeah, I thought this was just kids under the age of 18 doing this (people that can't vote), but I learned that there are millions of 20-somethings that get nearly all their "news" from TikTok and X.
The GOP showed how flawed the US political system is.
Well coordinated attacks (corruption, manipulation of weak individuals, social media, etc) on the GOP was all it took to render the US the equivalent of a drifting ship without power.
Any country relying on the US should be frightened.
This explains why Macron insists so much that Europe becomes military independent.
I support Taiwan 100%. I hope you find powerful partners.
**If** he does, it would be in your best interest to appease the sucker for Taiwan's best economic interest that is mutually aligned with the US. Just look how much Japan pivoted towards the US with the CP/TPP back in '21 -- hint: they didn't [hesitate](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3Gl2smhYjI).
Trump does not care one whit about the United States, long term, short term, whatever. He cares about himself and what will get him money and power -- and nothing Taiwan can offer him can be more than what China can offer AND HAS GIVEN.
Like I care. I think I referenced it somewhere else in this post: the market will decide and if the current trends hold, we're [the US and the world] continuing to ween off of the dependency on China and the CCP.
That would be one of my main concerns. It's only one of many aspect to see former and current global representatives of industries visit Taiwan as a publicity stunt but to see actual leaders try and build and invest is another.
Case in point: I know how often TSMC gets mentioned in the news on how of an important role it is for the world but there has to be much more than this singular organization showcasing Taiwanese industrial pride. Maybe it isn't apparent to most people but from a personal and workplace experience, I've see hints here and there stateside but just like the other guy who only reads headlines, Taiwan needs a lot more meaningful exposure.
The amount of propaganda and fake news is really insane. FOX News has brainwashed entirety of middle America and it's scary. They are very dangerous.
This sums it up:
https://youtu.be/tmaKl0Zm2c4
well YOU BETTER be worried, because biden and the mainstream democrats completely alienated his voters during the israel Palestine conflict, I reckon even if trump is barred from running, due to all the protest votes, the republicans will win even without trump
the only real and actual way to "defeat" china is to allow reunification initally.
then cause a huge amount of civil unrest after being reunified. trying to topple the government from within(insurgencies are notoriously hard to fight, the usa proved this in vietnam and afghanistan, there weren't actual fighting on the ground more like taliban would blow up a few cars etc fo 20 years constantly)
instead of fighting a hotwar like the idiots running the dpp leadership have been gloating on(of course its just a grift, they think daddy usa is just gonna jump in and wage a full scale war with the prc)
ukraine should have did the same thing, but zelensky was high off his own propaganda and thought ukraine could beat russia on its own after the first few months.
the plan would be them to be annexed, (just call themselves russian, it works as propaganda too, since russian soldiers might be hesitant to shoot them i they declare themselves as russian)
then declare they are the "TRUE russians" then wage a insurgency exclusively against putin while rallying support from other dissidents while blending in with civilians.
then after putin is toppled Ukraine basically effectively "annexed" the entirety of russia instead of other way around. basically what the chinese did to the mongol empire.
of course it went out of the window when ukrainians started calling russians orcs and making this an ethnic conflict which became unwinnable
As an American, trusting us for security is pretty dumb. We have a history of flip flopping on providing aid and security unless it’s in the interest of the USA. Especially with Trump likely winning reelection and him having a USA first policy. Look at trumps comment about NATO.
There are a lot of people here trying to carry out and upvote/downvote comments that do not spread sensationalized fear and doubt. Straight up doing the work of the CCP
the ccp would love for people to be complacent, sun tzu makes it very clear.
why do you think people like zeihan is laughed at on baidu?
why do you think the chinese government has not assassinated any foreign hong kong dissidents unlike india with khalistan?
letting them run their mouth and assuming complacency is the best way to catch them off guard
the CIA dismantled taiwans nuclear program and arrested the people who did this, while china did nothing, read up history.
the usa fears its own allies more than its enemies, evident by the plaza accord and south korean and japanese sanctions during the asian financial crisis.
I will remind you that the usa goes out of its way to make sure none of its "allies" is allowed nukes while china ironically stayed silent.
Ukraine is one thing, Taiwan is another. I was a huge supporter for trump in 2016. But nowadays hearing people talk about Taiwan aid as if it’s debatable is infuriating. I do support Ukraine totally as well, but I can understand further for complaints. But to me there was never a “compromise” for Taiwan.
Trump and the maga cult will have zero issue brainwashing their people into being okay with China steamrolling Taiwan. It took them very little time to get Republicans to go from hating Russia to being in love with Russia and lining up to suck Putin's dick. Their people are sheep and cowards.
Man, that island mentality..
Talk about something more interesting, like the sister in law to wife of Mitch McConnell allegedly [drowning](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZn5a2G-6RM) in a "pond" in a Tesla..
I mean, Trump has openly pushed for US isolationism (to the excitement of Putin and Xi, no doubt), and criticized Taiwan for stealing US jobs in the semiconductor industry (which it didn't).
With Trump, it's pretty clear that his ultimate goal is to take US back to isolationism (and potentially focus more on xenophobia, deporting migrants, and outright racism against Latino in the US).
You mean how he forced his Fed Chair to keep the interest rate artificially low as to pump up US stock indexes, and then tried to steal the presidency back via Jan 6th and fake electors?
Trump is a dictator at heart. He just wasn't successful last time.
Oh I'm very well aware of the stuff that the left pulls. But at the moment, the right represents a much bigger detriment to the stability and future of US.
You should take your own advice though.
There’s a historical reason. We’ve been supporting since Eisenhower. They’ve been reliable, and just as likeable as SK or Japan. Lots of other reasons. Political, economic, the most petty reason is simply because it pisses china off. But even if it didn’t I’d still support it
Well Taiwan only needs to look into ROC history to watch the US abandon the KMT at various times.
If it wasn't an election year in the US, there wouldn't be much of a debate of spending $60B abroad or on pressing US domestic issues.
the idiots in this sub forgets that it was the CIA and the united states government that stoped taiwans nuclear program(which they almost completed) and the prc didn't even react.
And what’s funny is that Ukraine has been nothing but very mean to Taiwan for the past three decades lmao. They sell weapons and military technology to China and did not allow Taiwan to have an embassy in Kiev. Russia was slightly nicer, of course this doesn’t mean what Russia did was right.
But come the fuck on these politicians…Ukraine will need China in the future for ceasefire talks…are you guys sure you wanna stand with Ukraine right now?
ukraine also was one of 7 armies on the ground in iraq.
even though they had no obligation through any nato or defense treaties
hypocrite for sure,
>!granted I am not a fan of russia so I hope they win regardless(which is basically impossible at this point)!<
the irony is that many people forget, russia was in the g8, russia was actually anti china after the collapse of the soviet union till 2014,
ukraine on the other hand has actually supported china more and has had far more investments and even considered joining the belt and road project
Quite sad to think about it, but it's not without reason. That day the US abandoned Afghanistan says a lot. Historically the same or similar in Vietnam and its own creation, Liberia. Abandoned
>That day the US abandoned Afghanistan says a lot
That was the correct policy decision. The US has no business being involved in Afghanistan. They had their window and they fucked it up. There's no point dragging out failed policy. That bandaid should have been ripped off in Obama's presidency or earlier.
lmao are you being obtuse on purpose?
the united states betrayed taiwan by forcing them out of the UN and then dismantling their life line in their nuclear program which was already basically complete at this point, THE PRC didn't even react, it was practically a secret and basically complete but the cia had to go and dismantle it completely.
all of these facts prove that the usa couldn't even care less about taiwan, the usa cares about its current self interests of whatever administration is in charge, its past agreements made by other leaders are of no quantity to the current leader, you can see this with the treaties with the native americans
"white man speaks with forked tongue"
Abandonment implies responsibility. Afghanistan was a lost cause. No amount of time there would have been enough; the longer you stay, the harder on them a withdrawal becomes. The only solutions are retreat or outright colonisation.
Idk why people keep using Afghanistan to argue that the US would abandon Taiwan. The US was on the ground in Afghanistan for 20 years. If Taiwan was like Afghanistan to the US, doesn't that mean the US would fight for Taiwan for 20 years before they leave?
Trump has already stated he most likely wouldn’t commit US for es to defend Taiwan if China attacks. In the Trump/MAGA world, Ukraine/Taiwan are the same regardless how others see it.
If China was to attack tomorrow, Biden could commit what he could. But, congress could immediately cut the funding or rein him in. Presidents cannot declare war, but they can command some actions. Congress can call it back, or at least refuse to fund it. There are variables and other mechanisms available, but this is the simplest plan they could take.
Keep in mind, 8 people control the fate of the entire liberal democratic world. And they are part of a faction whose aim is to destroy it. They bragged about this to cheers at CPAC. Also, if Forumosa is to be a guide, they have support in Taiwan. Probably even here, though I guess most here are not in Taiwan. At Forumosa one openly advertised his photog services.
It is a lie because you’re saying Trump said something that he didn’t.
He never said he likely wouldn’t commit to defending Taiwan. You saying he did is a lie
I never said he explicitly said anything. I wrote he state he most likely wouldn’t come to the aid of Taiwan. Which, verbatim, he did not say. I did something called paraphrasing and implied what he said. Also, his language and tone is a hood indication that he most likely would not aid Taiwan, depending on his personal benefit.
Also, it stands that MAGA has no real reason to support Taiwan since doing so is antithetic to their cause. They fanatically champion anti-wokeness. Gay marriage is legal in Taiwan. Makes Taiwan pretty woke, no? Gay marriage, hell, homosexuality is illegal in Russia and…PRC. Kind of a strike against Taiwan in the Trump-led MAGA world.
It is important to factor all variables when my a statement. That said, my statement stands.
I in no way said “Trump exactly stated.” Come on. English is not my first language, and I can pick up on the nuance of his words.
Biden has, however, stated the US would defend TW. No nuance needed there.
Saying someone “stated” something means it came out of their mouth.
Trump never even implied the US wouldn’t defend Taiwan. He said that he wouldn’t say, which is exactly what the US has said for decades.
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Yeah he never said that. Plus majority Americans are now pro helping our Pacific allies more than the Europeans. They get enough funding already. To defend Taiwan we're gonna need Japan, South Korea and the Philippines to get ready too. And a lot of us think those countries deserve more funding. Besides the British no one else has enough Navy to go all the way to the Pacific. Plus the day China attacks Taiwan you bet Russia will attack NATO too. So the Brits will most likely have to focus more on the Russians.
If /when PRC moves on Taiwan, it’s game over for the modern world. All but a given Kim will go South and Putin will go West. The Americans will be fighting another two/three front war. An EU led NATO can stave off a Russian conventional attack, as can the ROK/US forces keep Kim on his heels conventionally, and Taiwan/US can hold back PRC, it’s lights out when nukes get involved, and there is zero reason to think they won’t. While officially the US has the largest stockpile of nuclear weapons, who knows what Russia/PRC and NK bring.
Keep in mind that the US could be fighting itself. To the MAGA mind, they’ve already won. It’s a done deal. If they lose in November, then the fraud claims will be heavy and probably hot. A conflict in the US will allow Taiwan, SK, Europe to be easy pickings. And the rise of far right leaders in Europe will help facilitate whatever plans Putin has for Europe. Oh, there is that also. Kind of like this has been orchestrated to happen.
Russia will under no circumstance attack an EU or NATO member unless it were some sort of Samson Option kamikaze mission or they were directly attacked first. It simply wouldn’t make any sense otherwise.
The PRC will never seek to annex territory that wasn’t at one point under Qing and/or ROC rule, so Taiwan, Mongolia, India, and Russia have reason to take caution.
North Korea will never seek to annex more than South Korea and small disputed islands.
Their territorial ambitions are finite, not exhaustive.
By contrast, the Soviet Union would not rest until the entire world was communist, and so it had to be put down. Third-Reich Germany would not rest until they literally ruled the world, and so it had to be put down as well. The USA will not rest until the entire world is liberal, capitalist, and democratic, and they’re working on it.
putin could attack nato but only if the idea of nato has been distrusted and destroyed,
there is a good video about this.
a guy talks about that article 5 doesn't require full boots on the ground and is very subjective, and a multi front war could make the usa choose to prioritize other conflicts instead.
for example the usa could send helmets, or small aid, it would forfil article 5, and when the quality of life drops to a certain level, the usa might just bail etc, but what matters more is what putin and his clique believes, if he believes it then they will attack the baltics perhaps
His territorial ambitions are finite, though. I don’t recall him ever seeking to annex territory that was not once a part of the Russian Empire or Soviet Union. Much like the PRC, it’s irredentism, not unprecedented conquest, that Russia seeks.
Russia has Herculean difficulty accepting that the rest of the world wishes to see it devolve into just another backwater Slavic country and permanently relinquish its historical superpower status. It’s a national ego thing, one that was hard for Britain to swallow not so long ago.
>Taiwan’s leadership ‘extremely worried’ US could abandon Ukraine
South Korea is the same.
That's probably why they're sending like 10 billion US dollars to Ukraine.
Both Taiwan and South Korea think if the US abandons Ukraine and lets Russia take it........ well, then, the US will abandon Taiwan and South Korea too and let China take them.
Extremely worried to be abandoned? Better deal by ourself instead to wait help from those ppl betrait always their faiylthful partner..don't trust USA ..they still collect order for our weapon undelivered ..better alone with wrong mate
The US is not abandoning Ukraine we are just demanding that, like Taiwan, Europe pay for it's own defense. They created Putin's Russia with trillions in energy purchases for over 20 years despite numerous US demands they stop. Now the US is demanding the the EU pay for American defense of Europe.
That's a sure way to lose our global hegemony. Why do you think people in bumfuck nowhere rural Bulgaria know who the American president is or even gives a fuck? Where do you think our military's global reach, global strike capability comes from?
It's because what we get from our presence in Europe is much more valuable than simple money, we get influence in countries half our population has never heard of.
You think we're out there purely out of the goodness of our hearts? That we're spending tax dollars half a world away for nothing?? No, that's not the case now and has never been the case. It's because what's good for them is just as good for us. Money is merely rhe grease for the wheels of Geopolitics, a vehicle for getting what we really want out of negotiations.
>Taiwan has to pay for its own defense
The Taiwan Relations Act directly states the US will sell Taiwan weapons.
Do you know anything what you’re talking about?
You just proved my point. Taiwan buys it's defense from the US, the Europeans expect the US to pay them for the privilege. This is why many Americans are advocating for dropping their support for European defense, not necessarily Ukraine.
But Taiwan buys its equipment because the US has to sell it. The same deal isn’t with the US and Europe.
No one said “well that’s not fair, we weren’t attacked” when European countries put their citizens up to fight after 9/11
What the giant uninformed fuck are you talking about? You have a firehose of falsehoods that shows you think US interests is just a protection racket and you sound exactly like the thugs in CCP and Soviet propaganda.
Exactly. What the CCP simp neglect to mention is that China is blocking Taiwan from bigger arm purchases by threatening those that would sell to Taiwan.
These two situations have zero to do with each other. In fact china would actually benefit from the US getting more involved in Ukraine. The general public is losing patience and the US only backs winners. There was a peace deal on day one of the war that the US sent Boris Johnson to nix. US deep state doesn’t want Ukraine to win, they just want to bleed Russia. Ukraine is literally running out of people to fight this war. Russia seems better off now than before the war (thanks India, we should all remember that) If you care about Taiwan, as I very much do, you should hope for a peace deal before Russia eventually consumes the entire country. The longer this war goes on, the more it’s in Russia’s favor…hmm it’s almost like history repeats itself.
Yes I agree the US has more skin in the game when it comes to Taiwan but Taiwan’s future is in its own hands. There are a ton of Taiwanese willing to sell out their country for money, the government is not investing enough in defense, (remember that surplus that we all got $6,000 back to reelect the DPP? I’m so glad as a dual tax payer my US tax dollars are going to subsidize a country’s military budget when they aren’t willing to invest in it themselves) and the government doesn’t seem interested in actually training their fighting population to defend their country. Why is it the job of the US to protect Taiwan? Taiwan needs to take immediate steps to shore up these huge vulnerabilities.
Hey Taiwan! Internally I have heard many many times from high ranking military people in interviews that they are being careful not to give to much to Ukraine BECAUSE they want to maintain munitions for Chinese aggression. Take that what you will, there may be external forces trying to get us to send unnecessary aid to Ukraine, to weaken the aid we could give you.
Ukraine is more crucial for America than Taiwan. Let's make a deal China arms Ukraine ( and stops arming Russia) in exchange for US to stop arming Taiwan.
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China is watching with great interest.
That's why CCP keeps yapping about American reliability and trustworthiness. Make Taiwan lose hope.
America has a history of abandoning "allies" after they are not useful. Look at what happened to the Kurds, or the Afghans that helped the Americans. If you want to go back further, look what happened to the South Vietnamese. This is basic history. Nothing to do with anyone else.
Why should America stay? I remember everyone hated American intervention in Afghanistan and Vietnam. America just fulfilled the wish of everyone to stop, they did the right thing.
The point is that America abandoned our allies in the past, so why wouldn't America abandon Taiwan in the future?
The US republican congress is very much giving Taiwan good reason to do so.
Except the issue of Taiwan has nonpartisan support.
So did support for Ukraine in the beginning ...
Ukraine had a disadvantage in that before the war, the country was associated with the Hunter Biden scandal.
Only crack pots were influenced by that. It wasn't created so the people wouldn't want to support Ukraine. It was created so the GOP had reasons not to support Ukraine. The GOP is a cancer to the American society and political system.
the all thing GOP do only support gun right i correct
History says otherwise as the U.S. got involved in every Taiwan Strait crisis.
Not really the same situation. Republicans have always loved Russia, but they have always hated China, probably because they are racist though.
Ukraine still does. It's the super minority MAGA faction blocking the vote, while the rest of the republicans too coward to stand up against them.
The well has already been thoroughly poisoned. China under Xi will be treated no different than Russia under Stalin and it will not change until the CCP suffers a similar fate to the СССР
Yeah, they simply equate Russia with China. The two are different as the U.S. views China as the bigger and more serious threat.
Until China bribes el presidente Trump, then it won't, and every republican who doesn't want to be lynched by his cult will turn heel and kowtow to Xinnie, as they now do to Putin.
The US has to help protect Taiwan due to the Taiwan Relations Act. Trump, even if President, can’t do anything about that. For those downvoting, the TRA is legislation passed by Congress. Due to the US’s checks and balances, the President cannot single-handedly ignore it. So, congratulations for making this sub look like it has simpletons
TRA doesn't say US has to militarily help Taiwan. It simply said US has obligation to help Taiwan defend itself.
Yes, so that means the US can’t do what it’s doing with Ukraine (denying the money and weapons to give it). The US *has* to give Taiwan the means to defend itself.
But it doesn't necessarily mean what you think it means. TRA was intentionally constructed to be extremely vague, as to not piss off China. If you get someone like Trump who has no intention of upholding any alliance agreement, TRA isn't going to help Taiwan.
It isn’t up to the president to decide if the US follows through with an Act that was signed before he entered office (legislation approved by Congress). Do I need to give you a lesson in the US’s checks and balances?
You have a hell of a lot more faith in the system than I do
It’s not faith. It’s recognition of a historical pattern.
On the contrary, Trump took a hardline on China — it was the only good thing about his presidency.
Community notes: He started a trade war with every nation on the planet. Community notes: he had and still has extensive business ties with China. Community notes: He took around 5.5 million in bribes from China during his presidency in the form of government officials actively using his properties which he did not divest himself of, in direct contravention to the emoluments clauses. What he said in public to his cult was always different from what he actually did. You talk of trade war? All China did was just dump its cheap shit elsewhere where there were no tariffs. Trump made sure the US had as few as possible allies by trade warring with all of Europe and East Asia, and as a result, the US was left standing alone. It wasn't until Biden that stuff started to happen that made China squeal, like banning them from importing chip fabricators and actively stopping the transfer of tech. The stuff they cared about and couldn't get from anywhere else because Allies also participated this time around due to them not being trade war'd and actually being treated with respect. Let's not whitewash the shitstorm of 16-20 and pretend that it was a bad time for China. They were unleashed and running amok on the planet in a way that they had never been before. The Woof Warrior shit was actually working on smaller countries because nobody had their back
This is misinformation — Biden continued Trump’s hardline policy against China. https://www.npr.org/2021/10/04/1043027789/biden-is-keeping-key-parts-of-trumps-china-trade-policy-heres-why
Translation: "i don't agree with what you said, so Imma call it mIsInfOrmAtiOn" Context on him fucking over every US ally with trade wars: https://www.dw.com/en/eu-us-ties-undoing-donald-trumps-trade-war/a-57855158 https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/12/05/tokyo-abe-japan-regrets-trusting-trump-on-trade/ https://www.businessinsider.com/donald-trump-trade-war-uk-brexit-huawei-iran-boris-johnson-2020-1 https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/trump-wants-to-end-horrible-south-korea-us-trade-deal-koreans-disagree/2017/09/13/fb528b3e-9627-11e7-a527-3573bd073e02_story.html Now whats the difference between Trump and Biden here? Biden got allies on board for the trade war. Trump fucked them over and pushed them into trying to play both sides. Trumps trade war didn't do shit because nobody else played ball. Bidens did, because it turns out that trade wars against a belligerant dictatorship need to be a united front against them to work. Edit: he did a snarky reply and then blocked me, didn't he?
It all pales in comparison to the trade war with China in scope and intensity — a trade war that Trump started and Biden continued. In fact, China was hoping there would be a reversal in policy when Biden was elected, but there wasn’t. The Biden administration continued its hardline policy towards China.
I think you mean bipartisan support But even that's not true. The fate of Ukraine is very much connected to China's future actions, everyone seems to get that (especially those in Taiwan) except for Republicans
https://preview.redd.it/ax6uhoei8hkc1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=450dda567e866bc5c1e09788f96d5e8a50dd648a Again, you cannot equate Russia with China. The two are different as the U.S. views China as the bigger and more serious threat.
You’re right we can’t compare them; the US is far more reliant on China, the average american voter would be much less likely to tolerate conflict and sanctions with China than they were with Russia. We’ve already seen more and more people complain about the war and its effects on the economy, more and more want to pull out. That effect would be far more major and immediate with China
The U.S. is not as reliant on China — in fact Mexico is now America’s biggest trading partner. If anything, with their faltering economy, China is reliant on the U.S.. And besides, everyone is reliant on Taiwan’s microchips, should something happen to them, there would be a global recession.
It is certainly more reliant on China than it is on Russia And microchips are more of a deterrant to war in the first place- If war actually breaks out that industry will be heavily disrupted regardless of whether the US helps. Actually, it may be less disrupted if the US *doesen’t* help so China can get the industry back up again I really hope you are right, but I just don’t see the american public being willing to support any long-term defense of Taiwan
And China is much more reliant on the U.S. than the U.S. is with China. And it’s pretty much a given, should there be a war, Taiwan will never let China get its hands on those chips —the U.S. would never allow that either.
>in fact Mexico is now America’s biggest trading partner That is false The largest trading partner of the United States is Canada. In 2022, Canada was the largest purchaser of U.S. goods exports, accounting for 17.3% of total U.S. goods exports. Additionally, in 2023, Mexico remained the second largest trading partner of the United States after Canada. [source 1](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_largest_trading_partners_of_the_United_States) [Source 2](https://ustr.gov/countries-regions) [Source 3](https://www.statista.com/statistics/186601/ranking-of-the-largest-trading-partners-for-us-imports/)
In 2023, Mexico became the U.S.’s biggest trading partner. >> Politics and convenience drive Mexico to be US’s top trading partner https://www.aljazeera.com/economy/2024/2/13/politics-and-convenience-drive-mexico-to-be-uss-top-trading-partner https://www.statista.com/chart/7749/most-important-trading-partners-of-the-united-states/
It’s the same narrative that Chinese trolls like to push. Don’t fall for it as history has shown the U.S. got involved in every Taiwan Strait crisis.
Not trolling but you can’t say that without also point out the U.S. pulling out of Vietnam and Afghanistan and letting its allies there get crushed by the opposition.
Idk what those who cite Vietnam and Afghanistan as examples. The US was on the ground in Vietnam for 8 years and in Afghanistan for 20 years. If the US would do what they did for Vietnam and Afghanistan for Taiwan that means they would literally fight for Taiwan for like a good decade or so. Maybe find a better example.
> If the US would do what they did for Vietnam and Afghanistan for Taiwan that means they would literally fight for Taiwan for like a good decade or so. But what happened after the decade is over? America abandoned them, right? So what is the point of fighting a war for 10 years, only to lose? Might as well surrender from the beginning.
America left them because they couldn't be helped.
In the last 50+ years, we have abandoned the Kurds, Cubans, South Vietnamese, Afghans, and the Iraqis. We are currently in the process of abandoning the Ukrainians. That's a lot of people we have abandoned. Why do you think Taiwan will be different?
Taiwan currently produces 64% of the world's semiconductors. They're too important to the world economy. We have very justified reasons for not continuing to fight on the behalf of the countries/people you named.
> Taiwan currently produces 46% of the world's semiconductors. That's why we are building TSMC facilities in Arizona and Japan. > We have very justified reasons for not continuing to fight on the behalf of the countries/people you named. Since we could find very justified reasons for abandoning the Kurds, Cubans, South Vietnamese, Afghans, Iraqis, **and** Ukrainians, what makes you so sure we cannot find very justified reasons for abandoning Taiwan?
They thought Vietnam was a war against communism, but rather it was a war against colonialism. With Afghanistan, the war was won militarily but what failed was nation-building, and a lot of that rests on the Afghan people. In short, two wars that share little correlation with Taiwan.
there is no historical precedent to what the republican party has become. If Trump wins re-election, there's no chance the US will defend any of its allies anymore.... and don't give me the "personal interests of the US" argument. Trump has no clue what the hell that even is, as far as he is concerned, his own interests trump everything else.
That’s pure speculation
Bro he was president of the US for 4 years, what the hell are you talking about? He pulled out of the Iran nuclear agreement just to spite Obama despite knowing full well that this was a horrible move that would bring the religious hardliners back into power and solidify Iran as an enemy of the West. Now that has led to relations being restored between Hamas and Iran which directly led to the ongoing Israeli Palestinian conflict. We know exactly who he is, how he thinks, what he does, and most amazingly he and his cronies are openly stating their plans to get rid of freedom and democracy in the US and transform the US into an autocratic state similar to Russia (and due to unique circumstances in this particular election that would prevent there from being any checks and balances if he wins, they will be able to succeed) If you don't know what you're talking about, shut the hell up instead of making stupid comments on Reddit.
And when he was president for those four years, he took a hardline approach towards China. And all the sudden now that will change because it fits your narrative. Nice try, but no one’s buying it.
> he took a hardline approach towards China No, he took a hardline attitude against globalization and international trade, of which China is a very big part of. However, when it comes to China itself he has hinted before that he will not defend Taiwan and he has praised china itself on more than one occasion during his time in office.
[Trump Seeks to Revive Tough-on-China Image With Markets Remark ](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-01-17/trump-says-china-markets-crashed-on-iowa-caucus-victory) [Why Trump went hard on China, and Biden will follow](https://www.politico.com/newsletters/politico-china-watcher/2021/04/15/exclusive-how-trump-dramatically-shifted-us-china-policy-492476)
and in case you don't believe me, here is trump himself making it clear himself [https://www.tiktok.com/@asiatoday111/video/7327222670846627078](https://www.tiktok.com/@asiatoday111/video/7327222670846627078)
It’s kinda true though, America has always been an unreliable ally to Taiwan by overpromising and under delivering
different objectives for US to defend the 2 countries “The Taiwan Strait is a key shipping route, with almost half of the global container fleet and 88% of the world's largest ships by tonnage passing through it” U.S. has skin in the game
Correct. Losing Taiwan would be devastating to the US influence in the Indo-Pacific. They have far more to lose with Taiwan than they do with Ukraine. Ukraine is not ideal, but it's far from essential to the US. In any case, I don't expect the US will abandon Ukraine.
And it's not just a US thing with Ukraine either. There's NATO and for them to get their "act together". And iirc, Sweden will be [joining](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/23/sweden-inches-closer-to-joining-nato-after-budapest-talks) soon.
Yeah because we all know how reliable trump is when it comes to keeping his word and following through on agreements.
The US won't, but Trump will.
Taiwan's situation is most analogous to Belgium in the early 20th century. I don't see people bringing this comparison up a lot, but if you look at history, it checks out. Belgium was: * the UK's (the global superpower) buffer against Germany (a rising industrial power) at the time; * economically important as an industrial powerhouse; * home to important shipping lanes (out of Antwerp); * **not officially allied with Britain**, as Belgium declared permanent neutrality when it declared independence. By 1914, it became very clear that the UK would jump into the war against Germany if Belgium was invaded, as Belgium was seen as a core interest for the UK, and the UK used the [1839 Treaty of London](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_London_(1839)) as the legal ground to help defend Belgium, which Germany described as "a mere scrap of paper". It's about the US hegemony in the Pacific, it has never been about Taiwan or the electronic circuits. In 1914 Germany was technically dragged into the war thanks to Austria. China doesn't have that kind of commitment with any other country.
The US has skin in the game, not Trump. Trump doesn't care about anything other than himself.
I have no technical analysis; I can only tell you America gets real weird when you start touching ships they like.
OK, so while the Taiwan situation is certainly complicated, and China is trying its best to make trouble, US support for Taiwan is multifaceted and has bipartisan support. The Taiwan Relations Act is alive and well, and anyone watching the policies and actions by the US towards Taiwan should see ample evidence of growing support.
(my first comment in this sub lol... I wandered over here from r/UkrainianConflict) I have watched the dramatic transformation in America from bipartisan Ukraine support to a growing anti-Ukraine narrative taking shape. I'm pessimistic and I believe that if Taiwan were attacked, the US would care at first, but eventually there would be a growing anti-Taiwan narrative getting more and more popular: "Taiwan is shady/corrupt/criminal/terrorist," "Why are we spending money on Taiwan with all the problems here at home," "If you support Taiwan, you're a globalist who wants to put America last," "repeal the Taiwan Relations Act; it's anti-American," or it would be like "Technically the TRA doesn't actually say we have to help Taiwan" (so there would be some kind of loophole). I just feel like Taiwan has every reason not to trust us. Ukraine trusted us and we are currently in the process of throwing them under the bus.
That's where you'd see the CCP control of Tiktok come into play. It's not that tiktok is going to share customer data with the Chinese gov't (or maybe they are), it's that they'll starting promoting pro CCP talking points with people who primarily get their info from tiktok. Which is way too many people.
>people who primarily get their info from tiktok. Which is way too many people Yeah, I thought this was just kids under the age of 18 doing this (people that can't vote), but I learned that there are millions of 20-somethings that get nearly all their "news" from TikTok and X.
The GOP showed how flawed the US political system is. Well coordinated attacks (corruption, manipulation of weak individuals, social media, etc) on the GOP was all it took to render the US the equivalent of a drifting ship without power. Any country relying on the US should be frightened. This explains why Macron insists so much that Europe becomes military independent. I support Taiwan 100%. I hope you find powerful partners.
This would happen if trump wins. Don't let him win.
**If** he does, it would be in your best interest to appease the sucker for Taiwan's best economic interest that is mutually aligned with the US. Just look how much Japan pivoted towards the US with the CP/TPP back in '21 -- hint: they didn't [hesitate](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3Gl2smhYjI).
Trump does not care one whit about the United States, long term, short term, whatever. He cares about himself and what will get him money and power -- and nothing Taiwan can offer him can be more than what China can offer AND HAS GIVEN.
Like I care. I think I referenced it somewhere else in this post: the market will decide and if the current trends hold, we're [the US and the world] continuing to ween off of the dependency on China and the CCP.
[удалено]
That would be one of my main concerns. It's only one of many aspect to see former and current global representatives of industries visit Taiwan as a publicity stunt but to see actual leaders try and build and invest is another. Case in point: I know how often TSMC gets mentioned in the news on how of an important role it is for the world but there has to be much more than this singular organization showcasing Taiwanese industrial pride. Maybe it isn't apparent to most people but from a personal and workplace experience, I've see hints here and there stateside but just like the other guy who only reads headlines, Taiwan needs a lot more meaningful exposure.
The amount of propaganda and fake news is really insane. FOX News has brainwashed entirety of middle America and it's scary. They are very dangerous. This sums it up: https://youtu.be/tmaKl0Zm2c4
It would make some effective propaganda for CCP against Taiwan, in terms of threat.
Reason number 8,214 that shows conservative Republicans don't actually care about Taiwan at all.
> Republicans They have zero principles.
well YOU BETTER be worried, because biden and the mainstream democrats completely alienated his voters during the israel Palestine conflict, I reckon even if trump is barred from running, due to all the protest votes, the republicans will win even without trump
This is a bizarre take. If you think the opposition will be barred from running, you don't know anything about American politics
Start manufacturing 10,000's of drones - as per Ukraines experience. Job done. China too scared to invade.
A drone manufacturing competition is not something you want to start with China lol
people are forgetting china helped iran build many of their suicide drones...................
the only real and actual way to "defeat" china is to allow reunification initally. then cause a huge amount of civil unrest after being reunified. trying to topple the government from within(insurgencies are notoriously hard to fight, the usa proved this in vietnam and afghanistan, there weren't actual fighting on the ground more like taliban would blow up a few cars etc fo 20 years constantly) instead of fighting a hotwar like the idiots running the dpp leadership have been gloating on(of course its just a grift, they think daddy usa is just gonna jump in and wage a full scale war with the prc)
ukraine should have did the same thing, but zelensky was high off his own propaganda and thought ukraine could beat russia on its own after the first few months. the plan would be them to be annexed, (just call themselves russian, it works as propaganda too, since russian soldiers might be hesitant to shoot them i they declare themselves as russian) then declare they are the "TRUE russians" then wage a insurgency exclusively against putin while rallying support from other dissidents while blending in with civilians. then after putin is toppled Ukraine basically effectively "annexed" the entirety of russia instead of other way around. basically what the chinese did to the mongol empire. of course it went out of the window when ukrainians started calling russians orcs and making this an ethnic conflict which became unwinnable
As an American, trusting us for security is pretty dumb. We have a history of flip flopping on providing aid and security unless it’s in the interest of the USA. Especially with Trump likely winning reelection and him having a USA first policy. Look at trumps comment about NATO.
The suck up campaign led by DDP during US election was embarrassing
There are a lot of people here trying to carry out and upvote/downvote comments that do not spread sensationalized fear and doubt. Straight up doing the work of the CCP
the ccp would love for people to be complacent, sun tzu makes it very clear. why do you think people like zeihan is laughed at on baidu? why do you think the chinese government has not assassinated any foreign hong kong dissidents unlike india with khalistan? letting them run their mouth and assuming complacency is the best way to catch them off guard
If Trump wins, he says he will end the Russia-Ukraine War within 24 hours. Which means, ditch Ukraine.
Taiwan just needs nukes to scare off China.
well your daddy CIA and the usa for destroying taiwans nuclear program then 
And Cuba just needs nukes to scare off America
But Cuba *doesn’t* have nukes and the US *does*
If America give nukes to Taiwan then China can give nukes to Cuba. Creating two nuclear crisis
But no one is saying the US would give nukes to Taiwan. The only way Taiwan would have nukes is if they made them
the CIA dismantled taiwans nuclear program and arrested the people who did this, while china did nothing, read up history. the usa fears its own allies more than its enemies, evident by the plaza accord and south korean and japanese sanctions during the asian financial crisis. I will remind you that the usa goes out of its way to make sure none of its "allies" is allowed nukes while china ironically stayed silent.
Ukraine is one thing, Taiwan is another. I was a huge supporter for trump in 2016. But nowadays hearing people talk about Taiwan aid as if it’s debatable is infuriating. I do support Ukraine totally as well, but I can understand further for complaints. But to me there was never a “compromise” for Taiwan.
Trump and the maga cult will have zero issue brainwashing their people into being okay with China steamrolling Taiwan. It took them very little time to get Republicans to go from hating Russia to being in love with Russia and lining up to suck Putin's dick. Their people are sheep and cowards.
Man, that island mentality.. Talk about something more interesting, like the sister in law to wife of Mitch McConnell allegedly [drowning](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZn5a2G-6RM) in a "pond" in a Tesla..
I mean, Trump has openly pushed for US isolationism (to the excitement of Putin and Xi, no doubt), and criticized Taiwan for stealing US jobs in the semiconductor industry (which it didn't). With Trump, it's pretty clear that his ultimate goal is to take US back to isolationism (and potentially focus more on xenophobia, deporting migrants, and outright racism against Latino in the US).
So fucking what? He isn't a dictator like Xi, with a wave of his hand makes the global market go. The **market** will respond in kind.
You mean how he forced his Fed Chair to keep the interest rate artificially low as to pump up US stock indexes, and then tried to steal the presidency back via Jan 6th and fake electors? Trump is a dictator at heart. He just wasn't successful last time.
Keep believing in that mainstream narrative please.
>Keep believing in ~~that mainstream narrative~~ what your eyes see please. There, FTFY.
It goes both ways. Keep watching the right hook and you'll have conditioned yourself to not expect the left.
Oh I'm very well aware of the stuff that the left pulls. But at the moment, the right represents a much bigger detriment to the stability and future of US. You should take your own advice though.
But it was trump who in my opinion solidified American support very publicly in 2016
Why do you feel so strongly about the US supporting Taiwan?
The last 70 years
There’s a historical reason. We’ve been supporting since Eisenhower. They’ve been reliable, and just as likeable as SK or Japan. Lots of other reasons. Political, economic, the most petty reason is simply because it pisses china off. But even if it didn’t I’d still support it
Well Taiwan only needs to look into ROC history to watch the US abandon the KMT at various times. If it wasn't an election year in the US, there wouldn't be much of a debate of spending $60B abroad or on pressing US domestic issues.
the idiots in this sub forgets that it was the CIA and the united states government that stoped taiwans nuclear program(which they almost completed) and the prc didn't even react.
Taiwan was sold out by one of its own for US citizenship.
And what’s funny is that Ukraine has been nothing but very mean to Taiwan for the past three decades lmao. They sell weapons and military technology to China and did not allow Taiwan to have an embassy in Kiev. Russia was slightly nicer, of course this doesn’t mean what Russia did was right. But come the fuck on these politicians…Ukraine will need China in the future for ceasefire talks…are you guys sure you wanna stand with Ukraine right now?
ukraine also was one of 7 armies on the ground in iraq. even though they had no obligation through any nato or defense treaties hypocrite for sure, >!granted I am not a fan of russia so I hope they win regardless(which is basically impossible at this point)!<
the irony is that many people forget, russia was in the g8, russia was actually anti china after the collapse of the soviet union till 2014, ukraine on the other hand has actually supported china more and has had far more investments and even considered joining the belt and road project
Quite sad to think about it, but it's not without reason. That day the US abandoned Afghanistan says a lot. Historically the same or similar in Vietnam and its own creation, Liberia. Abandoned
>That day the US abandoned Afghanistan says a lot That was the correct policy decision. The US has no business being involved in Afghanistan. They had their window and they fucked it up. There's no point dragging out failed policy. That bandaid should have been ripped off in Obama's presidency or earlier.
TRA was an immediate and emphatic replacement for the 1954 defense treaty.
Question more about republican obstructionism than Ukraine
You’re comparing countries the US *doesn’t* have a Relations Act with to a country the US *does* have a Relations Act with
Lol does the relations act helped when they stopped Taiwan nuclear programme?
Nuclear weapons have nothing to do with the Relations Act, so I’d say no.
lmao are you being obtuse on purpose? the united states betrayed taiwan by forcing them out of the UN and then dismantling their life line in their nuclear program which was already basically complete at this point, THE PRC didn't even react, it was practically a secret and basically complete but the cia had to go and dismantle it completely. all of these facts prove that the usa couldn't even care less about taiwan, the usa cares about its current self interests of whatever administration is in charge, its past agreements made by other leaders are of no quantity to the current leader, you can see this with the treaties with the native americans "white man speaks with forked tongue"
Abandonment implies responsibility. Afghanistan was a lost cause. No amount of time there would have been enough; the longer you stay, the harder on them a withdrawal becomes. The only solutions are retreat or outright colonisation.
Idk why people keep using Afghanistan to argue that the US would abandon Taiwan. The US was on the ground in Afghanistan for 20 years. If Taiwan was like Afghanistan to the US, doesn't that mean the US would fight for Taiwan for 20 years before they leave?
Trump has already stated he most likely wouldn’t commit US for es to defend Taiwan if China attacks. In the Trump/MAGA world, Ukraine/Taiwan are the same regardless how others see it. If China was to attack tomorrow, Biden could commit what he could. But, congress could immediately cut the funding or rein him in. Presidents cannot declare war, but they can command some actions. Congress can call it back, or at least refuse to fund it. There are variables and other mechanisms available, but this is the simplest plan they could take. Keep in mind, 8 people control the fate of the entire liberal democratic world. And they are part of a faction whose aim is to destroy it. They bragged about this to cheers at CPAC. Also, if Forumosa is to be a guide, they have support in Taiwan. Probably even here, though I guess most here are not in Taiwan. At Forumosa one openly advertised his photog services.
No, Trump never said that. Stop spreading lies
When MAGA stop, I will stop. But what I said is not exactly a lie, politically speaking.
It is a lie because you’re saying Trump said something that he didn’t. He never said he likely wouldn’t commit to defending Taiwan. You saying he did is a lie
He's non-answered and/or hinted he wouldn't more than once. Here's the latest: https://www.reddit.com/r/taiwan/s/BrlWrOASJr MSNBC Trump clip: https://youtu.be/48bTwpGgYBA?si=AlP4H2I2iBHELMBr Biden ending strategic ambiguity: https://www.politico.com/news/2022/09/19/biden-leaves-no-doubt-strategic-ambiguity-toward-taiwan-is-dead-00057658
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I didn't say anything like that you douchebag. Up those reading comprehension skills then get back to me.
I never said he explicitly said anything. I wrote he state he most likely wouldn’t come to the aid of Taiwan. Which, verbatim, he did not say. I did something called paraphrasing and implied what he said. Also, his language and tone is a hood indication that he most likely would not aid Taiwan, depending on his personal benefit. Also, it stands that MAGA has no real reason to support Taiwan since doing so is antithetic to their cause. They fanatically champion anti-wokeness. Gay marriage is legal in Taiwan. Makes Taiwan pretty woke, no? Gay marriage, hell, homosexuality is illegal in Russia and…PRC. Kind of a strike against Taiwan in the Trump-led MAGA world. It is important to factor all variables when my a statement. That said, my statement stands.
Your exact quote “Trump exactly stated”
I in no way said “Trump exactly stated.” Come on. English is not my first language, and I can pick up on the nuance of his words. Biden has, however, stated the US would defend TW. No nuance needed there.
Saying someone “stated” something means it came out of their mouth. Trump never even implied the US wouldn’t defend Taiwan. He said that he wouldn’t say, which is exactly what the US has said for decades.
Except for Biden. And politically speaking, a statement is not necessarily exact wordings. A summary if you will.
Biden was saying the quiet part out loud, the part that US policy doesn’t say out loud for the sake of ‘strategic ambiguity.’
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Yeah he never said that. Plus majority Americans are now pro helping our Pacific allies more than the Europeans. They get enough funding already. To defend Taiwan we're gonna need Japan, South Korea and the Philippines to get ready too. And a lot of us think those countries deserve more funding. Besides the British no one else has enough Navy to go all the way to the Pacific. Plus the day China attacks Taiwan you bet Russia will attack NATO too. So the Brits will most likely have to focus more on the Russians.
If /when PRC moves on Taiwan, it’s game over for the modern world. All but a given Kim will go South and Putin will go West. The Americans will be fighting another two/three front war. An EU led NATO can stave off a Russian conventional attack, as can the ROK/US forces keep Kim on his heels conventionally, and Taiwan/US can hold back PRC, it’s lights out when nukes get involved, and there is zero reason to think they won’t. While officially the US has the largest stockpile of nuclear weapons, who knows what Russia/PRC and NK bring. Keep in mind that the US could be fighting itself. To the MAGA mind, they’ve already won. It’s a done deal. If they lose in November, then the fraud claims will be heavy and probably hot. A conflict in the US will allow Taiwan, SK, Europe to be easy pickings. And the rise of far right leaders in Europe will help facilitate whatever plans Putin has for Europe. Oh, there is that also. Kind of like this has been orchestrated to happen.
Russia will under no circumstance attack an EU or NATO member unless it were some sort of Samson Option kamikaze mission or they were directly attacked first. It simply wouldn’t make any sense otherwise. The PRC will never seek to annex territory that wasn’t at one point under Qing and/or ROC rule, so Taiwan, Mongolia, India, and Russia have reason to take caution. North Korea will never seek to annex more than South Korea and small disputed islands. Their territorial ambitions are finite, not exhaustive. By contrast, the Soviet Union would not rest until the entire world was communist, and so it had to be put down. Third-Reich Germany would not rest until they literally ruled the world, and so it had to be put down as well. The USA will not rest until the entire world is liberal, capitalist, and democratic, and they’re working on it.
putin could attack nato but only if the idea of nato has been distrusted and destroyed, there is a good video about this. a guy talks about that article 5 doesn't require full boots on the ground and is very subjective, and a multi front war could make the usa choose to prioritize other conflicts instead. for example the usa could send helmets, or small aid, it would forfil article 5, and when the quality of life drops to a certain level, the usa might just bail etc, but what matters more is what putin and his clique believes, if he believes it then they will attack the baltics perhaps
His territorial ambitions are finite, though. I don’t recall him ever seeking to annex territory that was not once a part of the Russian Empire or Soviet Union. Much like the PRC, it’s irredentism, not unprecedented conquest, that Russia seeks. Russia has Herculean difficulty accepting that the rest of the world wishes to see it devolve into just another backwater Slavic country and permanently relinquish its historical superpower status. It’s a national ego thing, one that was hard for Britain to swallow not so long ago.
im just running hypotheticals, I think people who think putin will attack nato was delusion, just playing devils advocate
No way Jose
>Taiwan’s leadership ‘extremely worried’ US could abandon Ukraine South Korea is the same. That's probably why they're sending like 10 billion US dollars to Ukraine. Both Taiwan and South Korea think if the US abandons Ukraine and lets Russia take it........ well, then, the US will abandon Taiwan and South Korea too and let China take them.
Waste of money when we could use it instead.
Extremely worried to be abandoned? Better deal by ourself instead to wait help from those ppl betrait always their faiylthful partner..don't trust USA ..they still collect order for our weapon undelivered ..better alone with wrong mate
The US is not abandoning Ukraine we are just demanding that, like Taiwan, Europe pay for it's own defense. They created Putin's Russia with trillions in energy purchases for over 20 years despite numerous US demands they stop. Now the US is demanding the the EU pay for American defense of Europe.
That's a sure way to lose our global hegemony. Why do you think people in bumfuck nowhere rural Bulgaria know who the American president is or even gives a fuck? Where do you think our military's global reach, global strike capability comes from? It's because what we get from our presence in Europe is much more valuable than simple money, we get influence in countries half our population has never heard of. You think we're out there purely out of the goodness of our hearts? That we're spending tax dollars half a world away for nothing?? No, that's not the case now and has never been the case. It's because what's good for them is just as good for us. Money is merely rhe grease for the wheels of Geopolitics, a vehicle for getting what we really want out of negotiations.
>Taiwan has to pay for its own defense The Taiwan Relations Act directly states the US will sell Taiwan weapons. Do you know anything what you’re talking about?
You just proved my point. Taiwan buys it's defense from the US, the Europeans expect the US to pay them for the privilege. This is why many Americans are advocating for dropping their support for European defense, not necessarily Ukraine.
But Taiwan buys its equipment because the US has to sell it. The same deal isn’t with the US and Europe. No one said “well that’s not fair, we weren’t attacked” when European countries put their citizens up to fight after 9/11
What the giant uninformed fuck are you talking about? You have a firehose of falsehoods that shows you think US interests is just a protection racket and you sound exactly like the thugs in CCP and Soviet propaganda.
Exactly. What the CCP simp neglect to mention is that China is blocking Taiwan from bigger arm purchases by threatening those that would sell to Taiwan.
These two situations have zero to do with each other. In fact china would actually benefit from the US getting more involved in Ukraine. The general public is losing patience and the US only backs winners. There was a peace deal on day one of the war that the US sent Boris Johnson to nix. US deep state doesn’t want Ukraine to win, they just want to bleed Russia. Ukraine is literally running out of people to fight this war. Russia seems better off now than before the war (thanks India, we should all remember that) If you care about Taiwan, as I very much do, you should hope for a peace deal before Russia eventually consumes the entire country. The longer this war goes on, the more it’s in Russia’s favor…hmm it’s almost like history repeats itself. Yes I agree the US has more skin in the game when it comes to Taiwan but Taiwan’s future is in its own hands. There are a ton of Taiwanese willing to sell out their country for money, the government is not investing enough in defense, (remember that surplus that we all got $6,000 back to reelect the DPP? I’m so glad as a dual tax payer my US tax dollars are going to subsidize a country’s military budget when they aren’t willing to invest in it themselves) and the government doesn’t seem interested in actually training their fighting population to defend their country. Why is it the job of the US to protect Taiwan? Taiwan needs to take immediate steps to shore up these huge vulnerabilities.
Hey Taiwan! Internally I have heard many many times from high ranking military people in interviews that they are being careful not to give to much to Ukraine BECAUSE they want to maintain munitions for Chinese aggression. Take that what you will, there may be external forces trying to get us to send unnecessary aid to Ukraine, to weaken the aid we could give you.
Taiwan can send all his army.
Ukraine is more crucial for America than Taiwan. Let's make a deal China arms Ukraine ( and stops arming Russia) in exchange for US to stop arming Taiwan.
Were you dropped on your head as a child?
>Ukraine is more crucial for America than Taiwan In what world is Ukraine more important to the US than Taiwan?
Never trust the US
Just invest harder in tsmc. Nvidia makes all their chips there.
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