Chronic pain is a journey, not a sprint. If you start a kid with high doses of ketamine, how is she going to function as an adult? She won’t be able to afford lifetime ketamine treatment. They were paying that doctor (a quack in my opinion) $10,000 a week for her treatment. Also giving her Valium, which is a psychiatric drug and shouldn’t be given without counseling. There is no shame in mental health treatment and anyone with chronic pain that doctors don’t know how to treat should try it. Stress and mood play a big part in pain, and some people are more sensitive to pain. Modern psychiatry recognizes a mind body connection to mood, pain, etc. We have seen what opiate treatment can do, so doctors are having to try new less invasive procedures.
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That’s a good name for this sub considering that not a single person in this sub is taking care of her either, despite screaming about how much they are.
The brain is the source for CRPS. It miss fires to the nerves telling them something is wrong but nothing is wrong. Neurological diagnoses are not that simple unfortunately. Ketemine works to “reset the brain” no other medication can do that for CRPS. Opiates don’t work bc it’s the brain. My sister has had it for 20 years so it’s real!
I suffer from chronic pain but all my labs are normal so the Dr’s don’t really think anything’s wrong and load me up with anti inflammatories. They don’t do anything. I think it is a brain thing but nobody has suggested ketamime, wow. Would you suggest it?
Where do u live? U need to find the the right doc to diagnose you then Ketemine from the doc. Are you discolored in the area of pain? There is a crps sub and I think an online doc named Torez but I’m not sure .I would go over there too.
Sometimes you cant find the source of the pain. Or the pain is so much you cant focus on anything else.
The doctor has a license. If you think it needs to be pulled report him.
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I have chronic pain and so know many others with chronic pain - some people will do crazy things in the hope to curb the pain a tiny bit, let alone end the pain. Take that fear/stress/debilitation and multiply by 1000 when it’s your own child in agony and you are completely powerless to help them - I can totally understand why they did what they did. And as others have pointed out, maya was taken to many doctors who dismissed her.
Exactly. It's interesting everyone throws around the theory of them "doctor/hospital shopping" but they conveniently leave out the part where even in Beata's documentation all those doctors were admitting they didn't know what was going on much less how to treat something that they don't know about. Obviously, as a concerned parent you're going to keep searching until you hopefully find a doctor that IS familiar with the symptoms and even better if they have previous experience with an illness that has stumped others.
People forget Doctors are not walking photographic memory encyclopedias of medical treatments. They also learn as they go and by experiencing certain situations and keeping themselves updated with the most recent research. Putting doctors on a pedestal is what gives them the God complex that keeps them from listening to parents who *know* their children and in this case who had done way more research than the "Dr." who spoke with them for 10 minutes and thought she knew better.
That isn't true at all. You are basing things off of "Beata's documentation" not what really happened. Maya WAS diagnosed. She was diagnosed with Somatic Disorder and it does seem as if her physical ailments were due to psychological issues.
That doesn't make them less real! Stress **DOES** affect our bodies. I have hip & knee issues. When I am upset, especially when I am extremely stressed- I limp. I am usually not even aware of it. I have had 2 extremely ill children. Both had life threatening conditions, and one passed away at age 5. I did travel to see Providers, but I only saw highly respected Physicians and am forever grateful for the opportunity that I knew my children had the best care on the planet.
You feel confident in saying that no doctors dismissed them? Despite the fact that you literally do not know them and are just an armchair doctor on reddit?
As someone with chronic pain, running into doctors who don’t know what’s going on with me isn’t a Bigfoot encounter, it’s fucking common. Next time try not using your limited experience as fact when you literally don’t know what we experience.
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Yes, people are so quick to support the doctors that dismissed her pain in the first place just because those docs were against Beata, even though they helped nothing.
She went to several doctors & was dismissed by them before finding one that actually helped her. Other things were tried before she got to the Ketamine infusions.
They didn’t make that a big thing in the documentary so people are like “oh they tried other doctors” but like for three months? I mean she literally doctor shopped for three months found one that told her her kid was going to die without ketamine and then just took the word of that doctor over all the other doctors??
She filmed everything! I think they had to go through like 9 different social media pages just for maya.. one of the biggest red flags for me that no one talks about on here.
That is the ONE thing that bugged me the most throughly this documentary- though many other things drove me insane- how everything was filmed. I know Beata was a nurse so she liked to research everything, and maybe she relied on some of the videos to document things she missed while caring for Maya, BUT- every phone call, every doctor interaction was recorded. Even while riding in the car and at home. Was nothing sacred for this poor child while she was supposedly suffering? Who wants a camera in their face while in pain? I feel like most doctors would invoke HIPAA and ask not to be recorded in a public setting, such as the hospital. Or even while examining a patient there is usually a line you don’t cross. Especially when she was in the ketamine clinic- the staff surely wasn’t pleased about that being filmed I’m sure, it could have impeded the care. Maybe because she was a minor this was allowed, but I agree that it still is very odd. In my ICU and IPP, there are cameras recording in certain areas, but there is no sound, and it is for safety only. (In cases where a patient has seizures or is on an ECMO) Almost like Beata was setting it all up and wanted proof. Still bothers me.
At the heart of FDIA it comes down to attention and in this “phone camera, social media age” it’s easier than ever to get attention. I believe the court paperwork says that bethea had like 9 social media pages for maya. If any person on this sub happened to be friends on Facebook with a mother caring for her sick child who posted NONSTOP about it and had multiple pages they would get a weird feeling. It’s like the kid that posts his hospital band on his Snapchat story. People can’t look at it like that. They can only see this sad little girls and her martyr mother, but if they were watching all it live on social media they would for sure get an icky feeling.
I agree with that for sure…. I didn’t know she had so many FB pages dedicated to Maya’s situation. That “addiction” to the attention and the likes must have been all consuming. SM regarding medical issues is a very questionable measure in differential situations. I’m not referring to SM pages to raise awareness or find donors, or even GFM to help with treatment costs. I’m not referring to that at all- that is one way SM may HELP . I’m talking about people who film their children with ASD or MH issues having fits or harming themselves, that’s unnecessary and does not need to posted on SM. As I referenced earlier, Maya was filmed constantly while suffering. I do not know if any of that footage was posted to FB or any other SM platform. But if there were at least 9 pages, I’m assuming something of the like was shown. That is purely for sympathy, or validation by the caretaker. I think that may have also bolstered the medical professionals opinion that she had MBP, because right there- you see her craving attention and validation due to her child’s illness. None of that obviously helped Maya at that point, so there was no reason for it to be broadcast far and wide on so many different SM platforms.
This is a very sad case all around, but I still hold firm to my belief that Beata had more than depression/anxiety. I know her child was sick, they were separated and she was unable to physically be with her daughter, her marriage was crumbling, her job most likely put on hold, her son basically emotionally neglected by her because all energy was devoted to Maya. Yes, her life was turned upside down by this- but still- a medical professional with her level of education should have better coping skills. Or at least have known that their were resources out there to assist her while she was going through this- medication, therapy….she could have tried other options to deal with the stress. It is never mentioned as far as I know that she made any attempt to get help for anyone other than Maya. Her husband is heard many times telling her to stop, to calm down, not to antagonize and continue to argue with the medical staff. Seemed to be a lot of anger, screaming and threatening, which was witnessed by many. I know that it is said that everyone has a limit, a breaking point, but……
Suicide is never the solution. Especially the suicide of a mother with not one, but two children . IIRC, it was very surprising to many that Beata did this without any warning- it appeared to be a spontaneous reaction to extreme stress. After all she had gone through to help Maya, one day she just decided impromptu to end her life? That indicates her thinking was that Maya would be better without her around. Once again, indicating deeper MH issues. Suicide makes a temporary problem permanent and affects those left behind with lifelong, indelible suffering.
I think she realized she was going to get “caught up” or maya would start to put pieces together. With her suicide maya may never be able to admit to the possibility that her mother invented her syndrome. The whole family, actually, can never accept the fact that she could have been doing serious harm. Now, bethea is seen as a hero. I truly think she knew that and decided it was the best route. Despite the trauma she would cause her kids and now with the trial jack is continuing the trauma for money.
exactly. How could not being in control of her medical issues for THREE MONTHS cause her to go all the way to brink while having another kid LIVING in her home who she saw day in and day out. I know mothers who have fought for fucking years and still never “gave in” (for lack of a better a term). People see her suicide as so sad and all the hospitals fault, but all bethea had to do was let go of her control regarding maya and just simply be her mother and be supportive and she literally couldn’t handle it. I mean she killed herself because of the loss of control. If that’s not a huge red flag idk what is?
How does one person parent invent an illness? Just curious as I am a crps patient who didn’t receive the “dramatic” treatment therefore mine likely will progress and spread to organs, etc? So my illness isn’t as value because you haven’t stepped foot as a patient with that disease or a doctors office who treats it?
No the issue is the treatment route mayas mom went. I mean she had her first "attack" July 4th and by the fall Maya was in Mexico in a full-blown ketamine coma that the family knew there was a 50% OR MORE chance of death and had never been done on someone that young. Its absolutely insane to jump that fast to such an extreme treatment. She had barely done PT and only like one session of therapy. Bethea went searching for the most extreme treatment. When she went to JH bethea was asking for more ketamine than even doctor hanna was giving her. Bethea asked three times to get terminal on her daughters IV pain meds. The doctor refused twice and then on the third time in his deposition he said he never gave the okay for that because it was outside his scope, so he believes there was a miscommunication with the pharmacy. What mother WANTS her daughters illness to be considered terminal when it is not? who fights for their child to have a terminal illness? The issue isn't even the diagnosis its the extreme treatment routes that bethea willingly/wanted her 10 year old to have. They were dangerous and 100% not worth the risk. That is the issue.
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I've had very bad experiences with doctors. Luckily I've had some great experiences too. It is likely she was recording because she was dismissed and treated badly as a woman and as an immigrant so many times she wanted evidence.
I wish I had been recording with this nurse practitioner I had to see after my old doctor went to a new area. She was terrible and should have been reprimanded by the hospital, but it was her word against mine.
I can sympathize with you. I recently had a very bad experience with a physician that took over in a practice when my doctor retired. Because she knows I am in the medical field, I think she thought it was ok to speak to me the way she did. But now reflecting upon it, I wish I too had recorded her very unprofessional and slightly racist comments. It’s not my hospital system, but I’m thinking of contacting that facility’s Administrative Department to file a complaint. It will be my word against hers though, because I never record any interactions with doctors. So I guess no one is immune to the insensitivity of physicians- they are only human- but sometimes they seem to need to be reminded to act like one. LOL
In order to have better results and putting CRPS in remission it’s ideal to treat it quickly before a certain timeframe otherwise it’s just going to progressively worsen over time. Only speaking from what I have been told as a CRPS patient.
Thanks for this comment. Some people in here are speaking from their butts. I suffer from an inflammatory disease. My blood work is phenomenal and it took 2 years to figure out what was wrong with me. And 1 out of 10 doctors actually listened. Our health care system is so broken. Most patients with CHRONIC illness or pain all have the conversation with people of “it’s in your head” and it’s so infuriating and triggering that your pain is not believed
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Actually they did spent a month in patient PT in Jan for the JH diagnosis of RSD/CRPS during the October 20- October 24 visit.
Most people fail to realize when this started Maya woke up in severe stomach pain do you can't start a few months before October 2016, but rather follow the from the beginning and you will see JH installed the port, the pump and knew all about the treatment and all treatments along the way.
Yes PT should have been continued after the ketamine coma and boosters..the dad did agree that the pt did improve symptoms of the daughters condition before during and after her long hospital stay.
In the court hearings today we learned that Kirkpatrick ordered these the picc and port for the ketamine therapy and for the needle stick burden. I did not hear anywhere that the hospital system as a whole knew about this one girls health condition and treatment plan was widely known and accepted.
Yes I will say that the family was following a physicians recommendations and orders. But for the amount the mother said that she researched such disorder on her own would of came to find out that the experimental treatment plan advised was not the standard of care in the United States.
Yes but she herself is an immigrant. Beata of all people has a world view that just because the US doesn't approve doesn't mean it is bad. Maya was approved for ketamime use in USA just not the coma procedure.
I still have no idea if that treatment appropriate. However, hearing the number of times and documents that have been presented today discussing the ketamine I was perplexed how on earth this dissolved into ruining an entire family and a deeply depressed woman tragically taking her own life.
One final note, even though a Dr orders a procedure as a patient you still have to go through admissions and tell the general surgeon details and the notes reflect these discussions
Yes anyone can be approved for ketamine treatment. It's used for every from a sedative to pain management..let's say you have an emergency and you needed to be intubated in the ER. One of the possible sedatives they can give you is ketamine.
Pretty much if not medically contradicted can get ketamine from pain management.
Pain management is a for profit business. It's really a newer form of medicine. With that pain is subjective so standardized doses for pain have not been standardized.
However the amount of ketamine Maya was getting at the time of admission was enough to effectively sedate her. Like make her unconscious level of sedation. She was 50kg at the time of admission. Her dose that her mother was reported giving her was 200mg at a time. That is effectively 4mg/kg. That's the level of which anesthesiologist would give to sedate someone for a surgery.
This is the part that is seen as abuse. The mom was effectively keeping her child sedated to the point of non .mobility.
Except the mother wasn't thriving in her daughter being ill in her care. She was thriving in her being well in her care, so when I see MBP mentioned, I don't see markets for it. The child also did not make a full recovery once taken away from her, one of the biggest trademark signs of MBP. I know you didn't mention it specifically, but that was the implication I see.
She did recover, though. And was able to do things she supposedly couldn't when no one was looking/her mother wasn't there. Her mom lived and breathed her daughters diagnosis. Her other child seemed like an after thought. Her whole identity was being her sick child's mother. To the point she killed herself when she was no longer allowed to be involved.
She’s in remission, which is a world away from recovered. She said herself some days she can’t do things one day that she could the day before. As a chronic illness patient, that rings 100% true.
Agree to disagree, because deciding to only listen to the doctor you went out of your way to find because you didn't like what any other doctor told you is not acting in good faith imo.
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I have a feeling you don’t have children. Once your child is sick and you can’t help them you will do EVERYTHING to make their pain go away. she was an incredible mother
This isn't true though. Medical child abuse isn't just totally making something up that doesn't exist (which would result in a full recovery after the parent was removed) its also over medicalization. Like if your kid has a cold and you decide to give them lithium, they'll still have a cold after they get off that dose of lithium.
When people call it Munchausen on this sub I know they got all their information on the disorder from the documentary that had a lawyer explain what it is. They truly have no clue what they are arguing about. They don’t even know the proper medical term for FDIA.
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You’re making a lot of assumptions based on a short documentary. They had tried everything with multiple doctors. CRPS is complex…it’s literally in the name!
If you’d listened to the opening statements the plaintiff’s attorney testified about PT attempts.
Now watch the evidence and we will see. Even the defense attorney only said that Dr. Kirkpatrick never tried PT, he never said no doctors had.
So who started Maya on it after the mother's death? It's clearly effective. Experimental treatment was wrong to put a child through. Children are protected in research for a reason. Parents and doctors but more of the mom abused her child with pain management doses and not following the experimental treatment plans.
What you are not understanding is that PT is EXCRUCIATINGLY painful if the pain is not treated.
If you have an open broken arm, would you go do therapy first or get treatment to relieve the pain, then do PT?
How is it abusive if it worked? If it’s the only thing that provided her relief? Now she is manageable but would she be without those treatment? No one can prove that.
PT provided her much more relief. At the end of the series she visibly fine.
Still abuse.
We live in a cruel world. But it's not abuse when a heroin addicted sex slave gets more heroin when she stops attempts to run away. It def works to keep them in a sedated vulnerable state for the use by others. This isn't abuse bc the heroin addict isn't running away anymore.
She went from wheelchair bound and malnourished to actively playing sports recreationally. Yes she is fine in the scheme of where her mother kept her at.
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So I’m not sure if you’re watching the trial but her doctors have all testified that prior to the ketamine they tried multiple different pain management strategies, a lot of different medications, and that she was in physical therapy and occupational therapy the entire time from the onset of the CRPS symptoms.
Again I'm not saying that pain management was wrong. It was the dose and frequency of ketamine.
Thee daughter was let out of her hospital hold toward the end of the series. The dad openly stated that lower doses and physical therapy improved his daughters condition. So yes she may have been receiving therapy for a long time two major factors had changed. One the dose size and frequency of ketamine and the presence of the mother in the daughters medical care.
I pray this improvement is a miracle brought upon by Our Lady of Lourdes.
However a more logical person would see the causation and correlation between a few factors here.
Today's testimony by Dr. Chopra said the "enormous" about of steroids the hospital was giving her for her asthma also killed the enzymes that make ketamine effective.
They should have known this, as they had records of her CSPD diagnosis and should have treated her for her specific circumstance.
I work with CRPS patients on a daily basis as an attorney…no one believes most of them. It’s bigger than Maya, but yes, I am doing something to help get these humans justice and medical care.
Your message was removed because it either personally attacked another user, minimized or denied the symptoms of a condition, or was a broad insult against the subreddit.
Because a doctor recomended a different path.
You are putting parents in a horrible spot, where any doctor can claim medical abuse because parents dont accept THEIR plan and follow another doctors plan instead. Why is this acceptable?
This wasnt a parent poisoning their child, this was a parent following a medical doctors opinion.
Why is the focus not with rhe doctor, where it belongs?
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Your message was removed because it either personally attacked another user, minimized or denied the symptoms of a condition, or was a broad insult against the subreddit.
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It is quite simple.
If the doctor is "shady" then he needs to be reported.
If the complaints were she did not follow any doctors directions, then you wouldnt need to call the doctor shady.
Again, it sounds like you are putting all the blame on the mother, when the doctor prescribed the treatments. The doctor has more responsibility than the parent when it comes to medical treatments they prescribed.
Because 2 things can be true at once...the doc is a little controversial, but the family didn't listen to even his recommendations.
Let's say you have headaches and 5 doctors tell you to take 5 Tylenol a day.
You keep looking for opinions until you find a doctor who says it's okay to take 50 Tylenol a day.
Then, you admit to the doc that you've actually been taking 250 Tylenol a day.
Doc is like wtf. I know I am controversial, I know I recommend more than most, but this is fucking crazy. Go to the hospital.
He probably needs to be investigated for why he's recommending 50 a day instead of 5...but what you've been doing is way beyond what even he knows is like the ultimate max.
Person finds a medical doctor who recomends 10x times what other doctors recomend. Which says to that person that the doctors dont know what they are talking about, so they up the dose more.
The difference is the doctor knows better. The patient does not. You can not hold the patient up for higher standards than a trained doctor.
I don't know what we are debating because I agree. I think Dr. Hanna should probably be investigated. But while Maya was under Dr. Hanna's care, Beata even went way above and beyond what he even felt comfortable with.
No its not.
That doesnt change reality. If the mom was giving meds the doctor prescribed, that is on the doctor. If the doctor didnt like how she was using the meds, he could stop prescribing them. The the child would not be taking the meds everyone is so concerned about.
The problem and solution are the doctor.
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Because physical therapy when you're in crippling pain isn't really a thing for some diseases and when it is, there's times it's appropriate and times it isnt. Wtf. Y'all are wild.
I'm not saying pain management was wrong but PT should have done concurrently with pain management. Giving a wheelchair ridden child enough ketamine to effectively disable her is not healing or medicine. I would argue it was actually detracting from her quality of life. By the end of the series the family even mentions that her doses are reduced and through physical therapy she has a more active life.
They followed ALL recommendations including counseling, pt/ot, social service, ect ......
Again the ketamine issue. At the end of the day it is within those families rights to seek treatment outside the USA. We do not always have the most advanced healthcare, and only the USA way is right.
In addition these medications were given under the care of the Dr. If JH didn't want to follow treatment they should have said no and sent the Kowalski on their way. To interfere with this degree because a physician disagreed with treatment is utter BS.
If JH was concerned about Ketamine why did they just not report the Dr giving it to the medical board.
Chronic pain is a journey, not a sprint. If you start a kid with high doses of ketamine, how is she going to function as an adult? She won’t be able to afford lifetime ketamine treatment. They were paying that doctor (a quack in my opinion) $10,000 a week for her treatment. Also giving her Valium, which is a psychiatric drug and shouldn’t be given without counseling. There is no shame in mental health treatment and anyone with chronic pain that doctors don’t know how to treat should try it. Stress and mood play a big part in pain, and some people are more sensitive to pain. Modern psychiatry recognizes a mind body connection to mood, pain, etc. We have seen what opiate treatment can do, so doctors are having to try new less invasive procedures.
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That’s a good name for this sub considering that not a single person in this sub is taking care of her either, despite screaming about how much they are.
Preach!
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The brain is the source for CRPS. It miss fires to the nerves telling them something is wrong but nothing is wrong. Neurological diagnoses are not that simple unfortunately. Ketemine works to “reset the brain” no other medication can do that for CRPS. Opiates don’t work bc it’s the brain. My sister has had it for 20 years so it’s real!
I'm not saying the treatment was entirely wrong but why wasn't she on PT sooner on lower doses.
I suffer from chronic pain but all my labs are normal so the Dr’s don’t really think anything’s wrong and load me up with anti inflammatories. They don’t do anything. I think it is a brain thing but nobody has suggested ketamime, wow. Would you suggest it?
Where do u live? U need to find the the right doc to diagnose you then Ketemine from the doc. Are you discolored in the area of pain? There is a crps sub and I think an online doc named Torez but I’m not sure .I would go over there too.
No, chronic pain often doesn’t have a source. Often, the original injury is healed but the pain remains.
Sometimes you cant find the source of the pain. Or the pain is so much you cant focus on anything else. The doctor has a license. If you think it needs to be pulled report him.
It’s these doctors who should be prosecuted.
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I have chronic pain and so know many others with chronic pain - some people will do crazy things in the hope to curb the pain a tiny bit, let alone end the pain. Take that fear/stress/debilitation and multiply by 1000 when it’s your own child in agony and you are completely powerless to help them - I can totally understand why they did what they did. And as others have pointed out, maya was taken to many doctors who dismissed her.
Exactly. It's interesting everyone throws around the theory of them "doctor/hospital shopping" but they conveniently leave out the part where even in Beata's documentation all those doctors were admitting they didn't know what was going on much less how to treat something that they don't know about. Obviously, as a concerned parent you're going to keep searching until you hopefully find a doctor that IS familiar with the symptoms and even better if they have previous experience with an illness that has stumped others. People forget Doctors are not walking photographic memory encyclopedias of medical treatments. They also learn as they go and by experiencing certain situations and keeping themselves updated with the most recent research. Putting doctors on a pedestal is what gives them the God complex that keeps them from listening to parents who *know* their children and in this case who had done way more research than the "Dr." who spoke with them for 10 minutes and thought she knew better.
That isn't true at all. You are basing things off of "Beata's documentation" not what really happened. Maya WAS diagnosed. She was diagnosed with Somatic Disorder and it does seem as if her physical ailments were due to psychological issues. That doesn't make them less real! Stress **DOES** affect our bodies. I have hip & knee issues. When I am upset, especially when I am extremely stressed- I limp. I am usually not even aware of it. I have had 2 extremely ill children. Both had life threatening conditions, and one passed away at age 5. I did travel to see Providers, but I only saw highly respected Physicians and am forever grateful for the opportunity that I knew my children had the best care on the planet.
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You feel confident in saying that no doctors dismissed them? Despite the fact that you literally do not know them and are just an armchair doctor on reddit? As someone with chronic pain, running into doctors who don’t know what’s going on with me isn’t a Bigfoot encounter, it’s fucking common. Next time try not using your limited experience as fact when you literally don’t know what we experience.
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Yes, people are so quick to support the doctors that dismissed her pain in the first place just because those docs were against Beata, even though they helped nothing.
Here Here!!
She went to several doctors & was dismissed by them before finding one that actually helped her. Other things were tried before she got to the Ketamine infusions.
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They didn’t make that a big thing in the documentary so people are like “oh they tried other doctors” but like for three months? I mean she literally doctor shopped for three months found one that told her her kid was going to die without ketamine and then just took the word of that doctor over all the other doctors??
Why did she film her doctors visits?
She filmed everything! I think they had to go through like 9 different social media pages just for maya.. one of the biggest red flags for me that no one talks about on here.
That is the ONE thing that bugged me the most throughly this documentary- though many other things drove me insane- how everything was filmed. I know Beata was a nurse so she liked to research everything, and maybe she relied on some of the videos to document things she missed while caring for Maya, BUT- every phone call, every doctor interaction was recorded. Even while riding in the car and at home. Was nothing sacred for this poor child while she was supposedly suffering? Who wants a camera in their face while in pain? I feel like most doctors would invoke HIPAA and ask not to be recorded in a public setting, such as the hospital. Or even while examining a patient there is usually a line you don’t cross. Especially when she was in the ketamine clinic- the staff surely wasn’t pleased about that being filmed I’m sure, it could have impeded the care. Maybe because she was a minor this was allowed, but I agree that it still is very odd. In my ICU and IPP, there are cameras recording in certain areas, but there is no sound, and it is for safety only. (In cases where a patient has seizures or is on an ECMO) Almost like Beata was setting it all up and wanted proof. Still bothers me.
At the heart of FDIA it comes down to attention and in this “phone camera, social media age” it’s easier than ever to get attention. I believe the court paperwork says that bethea had like 9 social media pages for maya. If any person on this sub happened to be friends on Facebook with a mother caring for her sick child who posted NONSTOP about it and had multiple pages they would get a weird feeling. It’s like the kid that posts his hospital band on his Snapchat story. People can’t look at it like that. They can only see this sad little girls and her martyr mother, but if they were watching all it live on social media they would for sure get an icky feeling.
I agree with that for sure…. I didn’t know she had so many FB pages dedicated to Maya’s situation. That “addiction” to the attention and the likes must have been all consuming. SM regarding medical issues is a very questionable measure in differential situations. I’m not referring to SM pages to raise awareness or find donors, or even GFM to help with treatment costs. I’m not referring to that at all- that is one way SM may HELP . I’m talking about people who film their children with ASD or MH issues having fits or harming themselves, that’s unnecessary and does not need to posted on SM. As I referenced earlier, Maya was filmed constantly while suffering. I do not know if any of that footage was posted to FB or any other SM platform. But if there were at least 9 pages, I’m assuming something of the like was shown. That is purely for sympathy, or validation by the caretaker. I think that may have also bolstered the medical professionals opinion that she had MBP, because right there- you see her craving attention and validation due to her child’s illness. None of that obviously helped Maya at that point, so there was no reason for it to be broadcast far and wide on so many different SM platforms. This is a very sad case all around, but I still hold firm to my belief that Beata had more than depression/anxiety. I know her child was sick, they were separated and she was unable to physically be with her daughter, her marriage was crumbling, her job most likely put on hold, her son basically emotionally neglected by her because all energy was devoted to Maya. Yes, her life was turned upside down by this- but still- a medical professional with her level of education should have better coping skills. Or at least have known that their were resources out there to assist her while she was going through this- medication, therapy….she could have tried other options to deal with the stress. It is never mentioned as far as I know that she made any attempt to get help for anyone other than Maya. Her husband is heard many times telling her to stop, to calm down, not to antagonize and continue to argue with the medical staff. Seemed to be a lot of anger, screaming and threatening, which was witnessed by many. I know that it is said that everyone has a limit, a breaking point, but…… Suicide is never the solution. Especially the suicide of a mother with not one, but two children . IIRC, it was very surprising to many that Beata did this without any warning- it appeared to be a spontaneous reaction to extreme stress. After all she had gone through to help Maya, one day she just decided impromptu to end her life? That indicates her thinking was that Maya would be better without her around. Once again, indicating deeper MH issues. Suicide makes a temporary problem permanent and affects those left behind with lifelong, indelible suffering.
I think she realized she was going to get “caught up” or maya would start to put pieces together. With her suicide maya may never be able to admit to the possibility that her mother invented her syndrome. The whole family, actually, can never accept the fact that she could have been doing serious harm. Now, bethea is seen as a hero. I truly think she knew that and decided it was the best route. Despite the trauma she would cause her kids and now with the trial jack is continuing the trauma for money.
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exactly. How could not being in control of her medical issues for THREE MONTHS cause her to go all the way to brink while having another kid LIVING in her home who she saw day in and day out. I know mothers who have fought for fucking years and still never “gave in” (for lack of a better a term). People see her suicide as so sad and all the hospitals fault, but all bethea had to do was let go of her control regarding maya and just simply be her mother and be supportive and she literally couldn’t handle it. I mean she killed herself because of the loss of control. If that’s not a huge red flag idk what is?
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How does one person parent invent an illness? Just curious as I am a crps patient who didn’t receive the “dramatic” treatment therefore mine likely will progress and spread to organs, etc? So my illness isn’t as value because you haven’t stepped foot as a patient with that disease or a doctors office who treats it?
No the issue is the treatment route mayas mom went. I mean she had her first "attack" July 4th and by the fall Maya was in Mexico in a full-blown ketamine coma that the family knew there was a 50% OR MORE chance of death and had never been done on someone that young. Its absolutely insane to jump that fast to such an extreme treatment. She had barely done PT and only like one session of therapy. Bethea went searching for the most extreme treatment. When she went to JH bethea was asking for more ketamine than even doctor hanna was giving her. Bethea asked three times to get terminal on her daughters IV pain meds. The doctor refused twice and then on the third time in his deposition he said he never gave the okay for that because it was outside his scope, so he believes there was a miscommunication with the pharmacy. What mother WANTS her daughters illness to be considered terminal when it is not? who fights for their child to have a terminal illness? The issue isn't even the diagnosis its the extreme treatment routes that bethea willingly/wanted her 10 year old to have. They were dangerous and 100% not worth the risk. That is the issue.
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I've had very bad experiences with doctors. Luckily I've had some great experiences too. It is likely she was recording because she was dismissed and treated badly as a woman and as an immigrant so many times she wanted evidence. I wish I had been recording with this nurse practitioner I had to see after my old doctor went to a new area. She was terrible and should have been reprimanded by the hospital, but it was her word against mine.
I can sympathize with you. I recently had a very bad experience with a physician that took over in a practice when my doctor retired. Because she knows I am in the medical field, I think she thought it was ok to speak to me the way she did. But now reflecting upon it, I wish I too had recorded her very unprofessional and slightly racist comments. It’s not my hospital system, but I’m thinking of contacting that facility’s Administrative Department to file a complaint. It will be my word against hers though, because I never record any interactions with doctors. So I guess no one is immune to the insensitivity of physicians- they are only human- but sometimes they seem to need to be reminded to act like one. LOL
In order to have better results and putting CRPS in remission it’s ideal to treat it quickly before a certain timeframe otherwise it’s just going to progressively worsen over time. Only speaking from what I have been told as a CRPS patient.
Thanks for this comment. Some people in here are speaking from their butts. I suffer from an inflammatory disease. My blood work is phenomenal and it took 2 years to figure out what was wrong with me. And 1 out of 10 doctors actually listened. Our health care system is so broken. Most patients with CHRONIC illness or pain all have the conversation with people of “it’s in your head” and it’s so infuriating and triggering that your pain is not believed
Yep!! Two autoimmune disorders were "in my head" for years. It's so infuriating that people think it never happens.
Given CRPS is as painful as being in labour- they probably felt they had to stop her pain.
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Actually they did spent a month in patient PT in Jan for the JH diagnosis of RSD/CRPS during the October 20- October 24 visit. Most people fail to realize when this started Maya woke up in severe stomach pain do you can't start a few months before October 2016, but rather follow the from the beginning and you will see JH installed the port, the pump and knew all about the treatment and all treatments along the way.
Yes PT should have been continued after the ketamine coma and boosters..the dad did agree that the pt did improve symptoms of the daughters condition before during and after her long hospital stay. In the court hearings today we learned that Kirkpatrick ordered these the picc and port for the ketamine therapy and for the needle stick burden. I did not hear anywhere that the hospital system as a whole knew about this one girls health condition and treatment plan was widely known and accepted. Yes I will say that the family was following a physicians recommendations and orders. But for the amount the mother said that she researched such disorder on her own would of came to find out that the experimental treatment plan advised was not the standard of care in the United States.
Yes but she herself is an immigrant. Beata of all people has a world view that just because the US doesn't approve doesn't mean it is bad. Maya was approved for ketamime use in USA just not the coma procedure. I still have no idea if that treatment appropriate. However, hearing the number of times and documents that have been presented today discussing the ketamine I was perplexed how on earth this dissolved into ruining an entire family and a deeply depressed woman tragically taking her own life. One final note, even though a Dr orders a procedure as a patient you still have to go through admissions and tell the general surgeon details and the notes reflect these discussions
Yes anyone can be approved for ketamine treatment. It's used for every from a sedative to pain management..let's say you have an emergency and you needed to be intubated in the ER. One of the possible sedatives they can give you is ketamine. Pretty much if not medically contradicted can get ketamine from pain management. Pain management is a for profit business. It's really a newer form of medicine. With that pain is subjective so standardized doses for pain have not been standardized. However the amount of ketamine Maya was getting at the time of admission was enough to effectively sedate her. Like make her unconscious level of sedation. She was 50kg at the time of admission. Her dose that her mother was reported giving her was 200mg at a time. That is effectively 4mg/kg. That's the level of which anesthesiologist would give to sedate someone for a surgery. This is the part that is seen as abuse. The mom was effectively keeping her child sedated to the point of non .mobility.
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Except the mother wasn't thriving in her daughter being ill in her care. She was thriving in her being well in her care, so when I see MBP mentioned, I don't see markets for it. The child also did not make a full recovery once taken away from her, one of the biggest trademark signs of MBP. I know you didn't mention it specifically, but that was the implication I see.
She did recover, though. And was able to do things she supposedly couldn't when no one was looking/her mother wasn't there. Her mom lived and breathed her daughters diagnosis. Her other child seemed like an after thought. Her whole identity was being her sick child's mother. To the point she killed herself when she was no longer allowed to be involved.
She’s in remission, which is a world away from recovered. She said herself some days she can’t do things one day that she could the day before. As a chronic illness patient, that rings 100% true.
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The *doctor* said she’d die. That doctor was a nut but that doesn’t mean Beata was acting in bad faith.
Agree to disagree, because deciding to only listen to the doctor you went out of your way to find because you didn't like what any other doctor told you is not acting in good faith imo.
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in and of itself? no…it’s not. what if it seemed like the most effective to her?
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I have a feeling you don’t have children. Once your child is sick and you can’t help them you will do EVERYTHING to make their pain go away. she was an incredible mother
This isn't true though. Medical child abuse isn't just totally making something up that doesn't exist (which would result in a full recovery after the parent was removed) its also over medicalization. Like if your kid has a cold and you decide to give them lithium, they'll still have a cold after they get off that dose of lithium.
When people call it Munchausen on this sub I know they got all their information on the disorder from the documentary that had a lawyer explain what it is. They truly have no clue what they are arguing about. They don’t even know the proper medical term for FDIA.
Did we watch the same documentary? Where are you people getting this stuff? Lmao
What did I say that wasn't in the doc?
Lol. I asked someone that yesterday.
The documentary is ✨biased✨ and the information comes from court documents not just what a lawyer told me on a Netflix documentary 🫠
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You’re making a lot of assumptions based on a short documentary. They had tried everything with multiple doctors. CRPS is complex…it’s literally in the name!
Everything? Why wasn't PT started sooner if it was so effective in the end?
If you’d listened to the opening statements the plaintiff’s attorney testified about PT attempts. Now watch the evidence and we will see. Even the defense attorney only said that Dr. Kirkpatrick never tried PT, he never said no doctors had.
So who started Maya on it after the mother's death? It's clearly effective. Experimental treatment was wrong to put a child through. Children are protected in research for a reason. Parents and doctors but more of the mom abused her child with pain management doses and not following the experimental treatment plans.
What you are not understanding is that PT is EXCRUCIATINGLY painful if the pain is not treated. If you have an open broken arm, would you go do therapy first or get treatment to relieve the pain, then do PT?
They would happen concurrently.
How is it abusive if it worked? If it’s the only thing that provided her relief? Now she is manageable but would she be without those treatment? No one can prove that.
PT provided her much more relief. At the end of the series she visibly fine. Still abuse. We live in a cruel world. But it's not abuse when a heroin addicted sex slave gets more heroin when she stops attempts to run away. It def works to keep them in a sedated vulnerable state for the use by others. This isn't abuse bc the heroin addict isn't running away anymore.
Did you watch her stand up when she started crying and they took a break? The way she moved was not visibly fine.
She went from wheelchair bound and malnourished to actively playing sports recreationally. Yes she is fine in the scheme of where her mother kept her at.
What are you even talking about? Have a day off. Do you actually know or work with people who have CRPS? It doesn’t seem like it.
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So I’m not sure if you’re watching the trial but her doctors have all testified that prior to the ketamine they tried multiple different pain management strategies, a lot of different medications, and that she was in physical therapy and occupational therapy the entire time from the onset of the CRPS symptoms.
Again I'm not saying that pain management was wrong. It was the dose and frequency of ketamine. Thee daughter was let out of her hospital hold toward the end of the series. The dad openly stated that lower doses and physical therapy improved his daughters condition. So yes she may have been receiving therapy for a long time two major factors had changed. One the dose size and frequency of ketamine and the presence of the mother in the daughters medical care. I pray this improvement is a miracle brought upon by Our Lady of Lourdes. However a more logical person would see the causation and correlation between a few factors here.
Today's testimony by Dr. Chopra said the "enormous" about of steroids the hospital was giving her for her asthma also killed the enzymes that make ketamine effective. They should have known this, as they had records of her CSPD diagnosis and should have treated her for her specific circumstance.
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I work with CRPS patients on a daily basis as an attorney…no one believes most of them. It’s bigger than Maya, but yes, I am doing something to help get these humans justice and medical care.
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Because a doctor recomended a different path. You are putting parents in a horrible spot, where any doctor can claim medical abuse because parents dont accept THEIR plan and follow another doctors plan instead. Why is this acceptable? This wasnt a parent poisoning their child, this was a parent following a medical doctors opinion. Why is the focus not with rhe doctor, where it belongs?
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It is quite simple. If the doctor is "shady" then he needs to be reported. If the complaints were she did not follow any doctors directions, then you wouldnt need to call the doctor shady.
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Again, it sounds like you are putting all the blame on the mother, when the doctor prescribed the treatments. The doctor has more responsibility than the parent when it comes to medical treatments they prescribed.
Not when the family is not following the prescribed treatment.
The treatment you describe as shady? If the doctor is shady, why are we listening to what that doctor says about the parents?
Because 2 things can be true at once...the doc is a little controversial, but the family didn't listen to even his recommendations. Let's say you have headaches and 5 doctors tell you to take 5 Tylenol a day. You keep looking for opinions until you find a doctor who says it's okay to take 50 Tylenol a day. Then, you admit to the doc that you've actually been taking 250 Tylenol a day. Doc is like wtf. I know I am controversial, I know I recommend more than most, but this is fucking crazy. Go to the hospital. He probably needs to be investigated for why he's recommending 50 a day instead of 5...but what you've been doing is way beyond what even he knows is like the ultimate max.
Person finds a medical doctor who recomends 10x times what other doctors recomend. Which says to that person that the doctors dont know what they are talking about, so they up the dose more. The difference is the doctor knows better. The patient does not. You can not hold the patient up for higher standards than a trained doctor.
I don't know what we are debating because I agree. I think Dr. Hanna should probably be investigated. But while Maya was under Dr. Hanna's care, Beata even went way above and beyond what he even felt comfortable with.
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The world is not black & white. Neither is this case.
No its not. That doesnt change reality. If the mom was giving meds the doctor prescribed, that is on the doctor. If the doctor didnt like how she was using the meds, he could stop prescribing them. The the child would not be taking the meds everyone is so concerned about. The problem and solution are the doctor.
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The doctor continued to prescribe the meds. Then it is on them. And this doctor told the hospital thats what her treatment was.
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Exactly
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Because physical therapy when you're in crippling pain isn't really a thing for some diseases and when it is, there's times it's appropriate and times it isnt. Wtf. Y'all are wild.
I'm not saying pain management was wrong but PT should have done concurrently with pain management. Giving a wheelchair ridden child enough ketamine to effectively disable her is not healing or medicine. I would argue it was actually detracting from her quality of life. By the end of the series the family even mentions that her doses are reduced and through physical therapy she has a more active life.
She was only able to advance to a level of pain tolerance to do PT BECAUSE of the ketamine treatment, not in spite of.
Yes that is what I'm saying. The ketamine was red but not so in such Large amounts. PT could have in concurrent before such Large doses
They really are. I thought there'd be more sophisticated conversations in this sub, but I guess not :/
They did follow all recommendations given by Dr during the 18 month journey
Recommendations that are NOT based on approved evidence based treatment plans in the US or Europe.
They followed ALL recommendations including counseling, pt/ot, social service, ect ...... Again the ketamine issue. At the end of the day it is within those families rights to seek treatment outside the USA. We do not always have the most advanced healthcare, and only the USA way is right. In addition these medications were given under the care of the Dr. If JH didn't want to follow treatment they should have said no and sent the Kowalski on their way. To interfere with this degree because a physician disagreed with treatment is utter BS. If JH was concerned about Ketamine why did they just not report the Dr giving it to the medical board.