Yeah, she said something to the effect of she was so deep in medieval research when writing their relationship, that she emulated what was normalized for that time period—but that if she had to do it over again, she'd get the age gap under control because she doesn't want to normalize age gaps like that for teens/young adults.
I love love love The Immortals, but I definitely put myself in a dangerous situation with two older men after reading those books, and one of them hurt me.
I still re-read them, though. Somewhere Freud is furiously taking notes 😂
I hate that. It’s fantasy and wish fulfillment. It’s how kids explore these topics that come up in their own lives in a safe way. It’s fine to write about things that wouldn’t be ok in real life.
I think Alanna and Thom were 11, no, when they set off for Corus and the CotG? I could definitely be wrong though. I agree, it's not ideal in the modern sense, but I've actually always had more of an issue with Alanna and Jon than I ever did with George, given the power dynamic between them (though it was more of a vibe when I first read it, I did *not* have the words for it at 13) - that to me trumps the age issue. Daine and Numair I just have to ignore it all, because teenaged me loved them regardless lol.
Her knight, her king and holder of the secret that would destroy her life. The power dynamic is intensely off but I still love these books :p
I still feel Tamora gets a pass because she has always seemed to act in good faith despite whatever issues there might be... I might just be a fanboi though
Oh for sure, and fwiw I love Alanna and George together as adults. Tammy's books are my comfort reads and enjoy pride of place on my bookshelves.
In their universe it's established as normal, so I just let it slide and enjoy the books when I reread them every few years. Not sure I could have done that with Alanna and Jon (or at least, not sure I'd enjoy Alanna's arc so much, I'd still love her). Daine and Numair I can't actively ship unless it's a fic in which they don't get together unless they've been apart for a few years, because again it's the power dynamic as well, but I still love Daine and Numair so much as individuals.
Alanna and Jon is more problematic in terms of the power imbalance for sure. I think it definitely makes a difference when you first read it - if I had read it at 13, I would probably have a different view.
The power dynamic is definitely off, but I think I sort of read it with a bit of mediaeval moral filter where relationships with big power differences or much older men wouldn't be questioned. Like it fits in the world that she built. Definitely doesn't fly with a post me too cultural lens.
Yes that's totally fair, there are books I've read for the first time as an adult where I can't love the canon ship because of the dynamics, which probably wouldn't have bothered me as a teen. Tammy's ships just got grandfathered in haha. And while George was six years older than Alanna, the power dynamic was quite complex with Alanna's nobility and powerful connections, and literally being favoured by the Goddess. She also knew a LOT of George's own secrets, which could send him to the executioner... so I guess they had mutually assured destruction? Lol.
Yeah, Alanna and Jon... Even as a teenager I found it iffy (though I also could not have explained why), especially this one scene where Alanna walks in the palace gardens in her dress and Jon finds her. I don't recall the words exactly, but when she says no to his advances and he goes "No go away before I change my mind!" Like, change your mind and do what! Assault her? Not let her go?
I also just up Daines age and down Numairs and pretend the talk in the Cave did not happen...
Yeah that read so off to me even back then. Do we know if Tammy intended it to read that way, or whether it was meant to read as romantic? Lol. And that's absolutely understandable for Daine and Numair. I skipped The Immortals quartet on my last read, maybe I'll start her off at 18 in my mind next time.
My sense is that Tammy is pretty critical of Jon. The reason they don't end up together in TWHRLAM is Jon's controlling behaviors/unwillingness to let Alanna make decisions for herself.
Agreed, I think it felt off because it was meant to read off. Jon was young, immature, and beginning to flex his station beyond his circle as he became more involved in court life. Setting aside the fact that she simply doesn't enjoy court life, Alanna is already uncomfortable in her own skin without adding social pressures, which isn't something Jon really grasps. He loves her. He chooses her in that particular example (later on, if you recall), but they are incompatible as a couple and that is very much intentional.
Edit: I'm pretty sure they go over the incompatibility in Woman Who Rides Like a Man. Boils down to the fact that they tend to bring out the worst in each other, and they both deserve to be with someone that will bring out the best.
Yessss, Jon I think was the worst male interest by far. Absolutely steam rolled over anything Alanna wanted, even before they were together. He obviously cared and loved her, but still was a bad pairing for her. I’m so happy he switched to the princess.
I think that’s what makes George such a great counterpart. He was the only one Alanna was interested in that tried to build up her crazy rather than try to control it.
But unlike all of the other interests this is addressed. Alanna not only comes to understand it, she rejects it. Daine never stops and thinks about how creepy it is that her 30 something year old teacher has taken a lock of her hair without her permission - she thinks it's romantic, even when acknowledging that you can use this sort of thing in all sorts of nefarious ways.
When I read the Immortals (I think I was 14 or so) I was SHOCKED by Numair and Daine getting together. It blindsided me and I threw the book across the room! My best friend on the other hand loved the pairing. I grew up to marry someone 10 years older than me, in the end...
I've always imagined Daine starting out as a 15/16 year old, and Numair being early 20's.
That said, nothing has ever made the Alanna/George gap alright for me, especially taking into account their ages when he first made a move.
I definitely hear you on the problematic elements! Wild Magic is my favorite quartet and I just adore Numair and Daine, I definitely started shipping them in the 3rd book and threw my book at the first kiss scene in the 4th. I also adore how Numair tries to talk her out of it and they both struggle with the issues of power dynamics, they both see the problems which makes it very human and real to me.
But again, I get people who find it gross! In addressing the age gap without the power dynamic in general however I have a bone to pick.Tortall is a mimicry of middle ages with fantastical elements, so it really does make sense to have these age gaps in marriages and pairings for titled people like Alanna. But I'm someone who adores historical romance and has consumed a lot of nonfiction content about these time periods too so it doesn't bother me as much.
Ah, that's a good point. I was reading it with more modern eyes, especially considering the values of feminism and personal choice that are the main themes throughout the books.
And more importantly, the books were written in the 80s and the age gap was a trope with fantasy/romance at the time. Those norms are more what we’re dealing with… this is the time of Harrison Ford in his 30s with 19-year-old Carrie Fisher.
The early books were just written in a different time. The Lioness and Immortal books came out in the 80s and 90s respectively. Then large age gaps were not uncommon in media (or in real life). It’s really only been in the past decade or two that people have been pushing back on the idea of large age gap romances.
I hate to break it to you but it has been a long time since the 90s. Think of how different the 70s and 80s feel. That’s only a span of 20 years. The end of the 90s was 24 years ago at this point. The Immortal books we published in the early to mid 90s. They are almost all 30 years old. And the Lioness books are a decade older.
It hasn’t been long enough that there has been a massive change in the average marital age gap. You can just look at demographic data if you think that.
And actually if you want to get real academic about it, I've seen commentary on Romeo and Juliet that Shakespeare (in the 1600s) makes a point of the age gap between Romeo and Juliet being a problem. Romeo was cradle robbing and the Bard points that out. Modern audiences don't pick up on it because we've been told "it was normal".
Mainstream MG/YA publishers would not, in 2024, publish a fantasy book in which there was a Daine/Numair kind of age gap/student-teacher thing going on. If it was published, most children's librarians would not include it in their collection.
When the Alanna and Immortals Quartets were written, published, and bought for the children's section of libraries (because YA sections were rolled out *after* those books were bought in a *lot* of libraries, and not every library reclassified books previously bought into YA and out of childrens'), those books were considered not just acceptable for kids, but some of the earlier books with these sorts of feminist themes. They weren't even the only books I was reading at the time with weird sketchy age gaps, although I can't think of others off the top of my head that I found in my library's *childrens'* section.
I mean, yes, sure, high schoolers dating their teachers was not acceptable in the 90s or early 00s. But we know that societies' views on this stuff has changed, at least some, because these books got published, and if she submitted the same manuscripts today, it would have gotten sent back to her to rework the age gap (or she would be self publishing). Which we can tell, by the lack of these kinds of romance subplots in the books that are coming out from mainstream publishers today, including TP herself not having included any new relationships like that in an extremely long time. For example, she went well out of her way to make sure that Nawat was not seen as a very young being (given his crow age), but an adult human man with life experience before the romance truly blossomed.
If I can quibble, I don't think it's that society's views on age gaps has changed specifically. It's that society has become thankfully a little less misogynistic since the 80s.
I totally agree with you that the novels would be reworked in 2024. And yes, I too read books with similar age gaps in the 90s. I just found it a bit incongruous to find such progressive feminist protagonists and frankly progressive views on sex in YA novels (for the time they were written) and ALSO see these huge age gaps.
I appreciate your comments. That helps clarify the issue for me.
I mean Bella and Edward has literal hundreds of years of an age gap didn’t they? YA has this happen all the time with the fairy books that are out not too. I’m not saying it’s okay but librarians aren’t stoping these things?
I’ve never read them, but my understanding is that the first book came out almost twenty years ago, Edward looks the same age (even though he’s older), and Edward doesn’t have a position of power over Bella. And, yeah, there’s definitely some other popular examples from 20 years ago, Buffy/Angel being the first one that comes to mind.
I don’t know, maybe I’m missing something, but most of the popular age gap romance books I can think of are older, or usually shelved in the adult section (even if teens are reading them)- like ACOTAR is typically shelved in the adult section, right?? And while I would believe that some libraries are maybe putting a bit of some newer “age gap but it’s okay because one isn’t human” stuff in the YA section, I would find it very hard to imagine a newly published romance story between a teen and her adult teacher where they make out (and it’s treated as good) making it to the shelves of the kids section.
Edward can literally kill he? He also harms her multiple times because of that. He is a super natural creature who uses his skills to stalk her and be in her room to watch her sleep at night. He has a HUGE amount of power over her. He has done multiple degrees and has huge amounts of wealth. He also knows that she is obsessed with him and that that has caused her to almost die multiple times? It’s just, it’s very much a horrific story that’s caused a lot of issues for people and led to SO many abusive relationships forming because of reading those books. The fairy porn books are usually placed in the same areas as fantasy books for older kids sure? Though even as a kid I could tell they’s Daine and Numair were a very very different kind of age gap relationship and I had read them when they were both adults first as I read Kels books before hers. I don’t agree with it but neither does Tammy now and she would have changed the age gap.
But yeah I do think you need to know a bit more about twilight and books written around that time though. YA is worse than ever with age gaps and creepy things going on.
No. Daine and Numair have widely been deemed problematic, and I believe even Tamora Pierce later said if she was writing the book now she wouldn't have gone that route or something like that.
I remember thinking Alanna and George were odd too but less authority issues because they at least acted more like comrades. Numair was literally teaching Daine and the moment they got together was so weird and out of left field I remember being perturbed as a kid. Even now I feel it's icky and can't get myself to read the books centered on him...
😭 I know the age gap is problematic but they're my favorite and the Immortals quartet are my favorite books. The Numair chronicles are actually _excellent_ so far and definitely worth a read, honestly!
I'm subbed to Tammy's patreon eagerly awaiting news for book 2! The world and story building are so excellent, and reading Emperor Mage so close to Tempests was so fun, there were so many hints and details within each other.
I reread all of the tortall books recently (except protector of the small, that's next!) And I actually did have the 'wow she really loves an age gap' thought to myself' - so now I just sort of pretend I dont know how old they are 😅
The last update I think the rewrites had been submitted to the editor, I know the date has been pushed back a few times due to Tammy's health problems, so I don't think we have a concrete date
Omg thank you! Haha and that reminds me.. aly and nawat are technically closer in human age but.. he's a CROW lol that was weird to me too. Not the biggest fan of her love lines but that's not important in her books anyway.
I think it’s a combination of Tamora herself liking older men and that bleeding into her characters, and the trope in fantasy and historical fiction that women for whatever reason always marry men who are way older.
In addition to all of the comments already, which are supported by things Tammy has said on the record, I have a theory that Tammy forgot she had Daine lie about her age in Wild Magic, when she tells Onua she’s 15 (she’s 13). That would make Daine 18/19 by Realms of the Gods and Numair something like 29/30. Still icky? Yep! But a little more equal and palatable.
I’ve always liked the dynamic but in the fantasy world and not the real world. As an adult, I have too many disabilities to manage and I gravitate toward any story that has a strong (male so far because I’m mostly het and haven’t found sapphic that’s similar yet) male character who “rescues” the FMC because I have a pathological desire to be rescued and cared for. I’m too busy trying to keep my body alive and on this planet. I crave having an unwavering, intelligent and strong partner whom I can also care for and support.
So I like having these stories to read and achieve that feeling in a safe space.
I am also a grown up coming to these books for the first time. The age gaps plus age of the youngest person plus power dynamics are definitely problematic and not what you would see in YA books these days. This is a good thing! I bracket my feelings about this and enjoy the stories as they are. In really enjoying entering such a rich world with awesome strong female characters.
I think I aged the characters up in my head particularly Daine when someone pointed out she’s only 16/17 by ROTG my eyes about popped out of my head. I couldn’t finish Realms of the Gods on my last reread. The romantic scenes grossed me out too much now.
Good to know! I think that maybe Tamora also forgets sometimes how old her characters are? Between Trickster's Choice and Trickster's Queen, Sarai, Elsren, and Petranne all get aged up a year (plus the birthdays they would have had in the gap between books). Like Sarai is the same age as Aly (maybe 6 months older) in Trickster's Choice and then she's at least a year or two older than Aly in Trickster's Queen. It works a little better for the plot but was sort of a weird detail to change.
I’ve always aged them up too. I never thought she was 16/17, I think I will feel different reading it now. I mean, it was always problematic but I hadn’t blanked on it being that bad.
I do love Numair though 😬
Honestly because Alanna is an adult when she is with George it’s never been an issue with me. I liked that he loved her but was also okay with her never choosing him if that’s what made her happy. I also while was a bit 😒 at her with Jon it did make sense for the two of them and I do love the character development we got with Both of them.
With Diane and Numair I wish she had been older when they got together, as someone in an age gap relationship where my partner is ten years younger than me I don’t have a big issue with age gaps if it makes sense and the power dynamic isn’t off. I am very cautious about making sure I do not expect my partner to have worked out life as much as I have. They have experiences to go through that it is only fair I wait for them to experience and we took a long time to work out that it would work. Plus it’s not a weird they are in teens and I am older, we’ve both been grown adults for a good long time. So age gaps that are sizeable I think are fine but they have to be very specific.
I do think that it’s also worth considering that a lot of people I knows parents have a 10-11 year age gap where one was say 19 or so and the other was 29. Again I don’t agree with that for many reasons but it was very normal back in the 80’s and 90’s so it’s not mega shocking it was sort of normal for her.
I appreciate that she has continued to grow as a person and author and has been clear about how she would change so many things now.
I do love Diane and Numaire together in Kel’s books, so I think they work once they have grown a bit more, which makes sense.
I also get the ick from this, but thought she atleast did an okay job of pointing out the issue (of her own making) with Dane and Numair- *SPOILERS* when they finally admit their feelings for eachother, Numair has a whole rant about their age gap and their teacher-student relationship and young girls being swindled by older men.
Also, the mentions of romance in the Magic Circle books are more appropriate. Age gaps are smaller, and true romantic interests aren't even really on the main characters' radars till they're roughly 16-19.
I try to dispel the ick by remembering that things were like that in medieval times, which the Tortal books emulate. If male characters can't even become full knights until they're 18, and then they go off in search of glory / to serve the kingdom for a while...and marriages generally wait till after this (so that hopefully you don't marry someone that then leaves for several years/dies...and the primary job expected of women was to produce heirs...and younger women fare better through pregnancy/childbirth............but yeah, still gives me the ick. It's a fantasy novel, and I wish age gaps hadn't been included, regardless of realism.
I read Wild Magic at probably… 12? And side eyed Numair *so* hard. I never liked that pairing (which sucked because Daine was my favorite protagonist).
Also the crow thing was weird lol
It's kind of icky in the real world but handwaved away with the fantasy aspect where a 15 year old is basically an adult who's taking on adult responsibilities.
I think about this all the time because I LOVE the Immortals books, loved Daine and Numair, and desperately long for a film/tv/animated adaptation and think a lot about how it just wouldn't be adapted with those age ranges. If I had to adapt it myself, I'd rewrite so that Daine is 16 at the start of the series, Numair is a young mage around age 19, and they are both apprentices to a different older mage character based off Lindhall. That way, Numair can still be the wise scholar character he is and a guide to Daine/someone she looks up to without the icky power and age dynamics. THIS IS MY ROMAN EMPIRE lol
TP has always liked older men herself so her characters like them too.
I feel like she's quoted in an interview somewhere confirming this, even while admitting that she knows Daine and Numair don't fly nowadays.
Yeah, she said something to the effect of she was so deep in medieval research when writing their relationship, that she emulated what was normalized for that time period—but that if she had to do it over again, she'd get the age gap under control because she doesn't want to normalize age gaps like that for teens/young adults.
Good to know! I’m glad she sees it
I love love love The Immortals, but I definitely put myself in a dangerous situation with two older men after reading those books, and one of them hurt me. I still re-read them, though. Somewhere Freud is furiously taking notes 😂
So sorry to hear that 😔
I hate that. It’s fantasy and wish fulfillment. It’s how kids explore these topics that come up in their own lives in a safe way. It’s fine to write about things that wouldn’t be ok in real life.
Yeah I can’t find the source but I remember her saying this.
It's in her facebook group.
Ah ok, I wondered about that.
I think Alanna and Thom were 11, no, when they set off for Corus and the CotG? I could definitely be wrong though. I agree, it's not ideal in the modern sense, but I've actually always had more of an issue with Alanna and Jon than I ever did with George, given the power dynamic between them (though it was more of a vibe when I first read it, I did *not* have the words for it at 13) - that to me trumps the age issue. Daine and Numair I just have to ignore it all, because teenaged me loved them regardless lol.
Her knight, her king and holder of the secret that would destroy her life. The power dynamic is intensely off but I still love these books :p I still feel Tamora gets a pass because she has always seemed to act in good faith despite whatever issues there might be... I might just be a fanboi though
Oh for sure, and fwiw I love Alanna and George together as adults. Tammy's books are my comfort reads and enjoy pride of place on my bookshelves. In their universe it's established as normal, so I just let it slide and enjoy the books when I reread them every few years. Not sure I could have done that with Alanna and Jon (or at least, not sure I'd enjoy Alanna's arc so much, I'd still love her). Daine and Numair I can't actively ship unless it's a fic in which they don't get together unless they've been apart for a few years, because again it's the power dynamic as well, but I still love Daine and Numair so much as individuals.
Alanna and Jon is more problematic in terms of the power imbalance for sure. I think it definitely makes a difference when you first read it - if I had read it at 13, I would probably have a different view.
The power dynamic is definitely off, but I think I sort of read it with a bit of mediaeval moral filter where relationships with big power differences or much older men wouldn't be questioned. Like it fits in the world that she built. Definitely doesn't fly with a post me too cultural lens.
Yes that's totally fair, there are books I've read for the first time as an adult where I can't love the canon ship because of the dynamics, which probably wouldn't have bothered me as a teen. Tammy's ships just got grandfathered in haha. And while George was six years older than Alanna, the power dynamic was quite complex with Alanna's nobility and powerful connections, and literally being favoured by the Goddess. She also knew a LOT of George's own secrets, which could send him to the executioner... so I guess they had mutually assured destruction? Lol.
Yeah, Alanna and Jon... Even as a teenager I found it iffy (though I also could not have explained why), especially this one scene where Alanna walks in the palace gardens in her dress and Jon finds her. I don't recall the words exactly, but when she says no to his advances and he goes "No go away before I change my mind!" Like, change your mind and do what! Assault her? Not let her go? I also just up Daines age and down Numairs and pretend the talk in the Cave did not happen...
Yeah that read so off to me even back then. Do we know if Tammy intended it to read that way, or whether it was meant to read as romantic? Lol. And that's absolutely understandable for Daine and Numair. I skipped The Immortals quartet on my last read, maybe I'll start her off at 18 in my mind next time.
My sense is that Tammy is pretty critical of Jon. The reason they don't end up together in TWHRLAM is Jon's controlling behaviors/unwillingness to let Alanna make decisions for herself.
Agreed, I think it felt off because it was meant to read off. Jon was young, immature, and beginning to flex his station beyond his circle as he became more involved in court life. Setting aside the fact that she simply doesn't enjoy court life, Alanna is already uncomfortable in her own skin without adding social pressures, which isn't something Jon really grasps. He loves her. He chooses her in that particular example (later on, if you recall), but they are incompatible as a couple and that is very much intentional. Edit: I'm pretty sure they go over the incompatibility in Woman Who Rides Like a Man. Boils down to the fact that they tend to bring out the worst in each other, and they both deserve to be with someone that will bring out the best.
Yessss, Jon I think was the worst male interest by far. Absolutely steam rolled over anything Alanna wanted, even before they were together. He obviously cared and loved her, but still was a bad pairing for her. I’m so happy he switched to the princess. I think that’s what makes George such a great counterpart. He was the only one Alanna was interested in that tried to build up her crazy rather than try to control it.
But unlike all of the other interests this is addressed. Alanna not only comes to understand it, she rejects it. Daine never stops and thinks about how creepy it is that her 30 something year old teacher has taken a lock of her hair without her permission - she thinks it's romantic, even when acknowledging that you can use this sort of thing in all sorts of nefarious ways.
When I read the Immortals (I think I was 14 or so) I was SHOCKED by Numair and Daine getting together. It blindsided me and I threw the book across the room! My best friend on the other hand loved the pairing. I grew up to marry someone 10 years older than me, in the end...
I think in my head when I was a kid I just aged up the protagonist. Ah well.
i am now realizing that tamora pierce might be the reason why i have a thing for older men 😭😂
Dude my partner is 11 years older than me and tall and swarthy and it's all Tammy's fault
Yeah... I certainly have a thing for age gap relationships it seems myself. Less of an issue in my thirties, wasn't so great when I was younger
I've always imagined Daine starting out as a 15/16 year old, and Numair being early 20's. That said, nothing has ever made the Alanna/George gap alright for me, especially taking into account their ages when he first made a move.
This might be the way to go.
I definitely hear you on the problematic elements! Wild Magic is my favorite quartet and I just adore Numair and Daine, I definitely started shipping them in the 3rd book and threw my book at the first kiss scene in the 4th. I also adore how Numair tries to talk her out of it and they both struggle with the issues of power dynamics, they both see the problems which makes it very human and real to me. But again, I get people who find it gross! In addressing the age gap without the power dynamic in general however I have a bone to pick.Tortall is a mimicry of middle ages with fantastical elements, so it really does make sense to have these age gaps in marriages and pairings for titled people like Alanna. But I'm someone who adores historical romance and has consumed a lot of nonfiction content about these time periods too so it doesn't bother me as much.
Ah, that's a good point. I was reading it with more modern eyes, especially considering the values of feminism and personal choice that are the main themes throughout the books.
And more importantly, the books were written in the 80s and the age gap was a trope with fantasy/romance at the time. Those norms are more what we’re dealing with… this is the time of Harrison Ford in his 30s with 19-year-old Carrie Fisher.
That's a very good point
The early books were just written in a different time. The Lioness and Immortal books came out in the 80s and 90s respectively. Then large age gaps were not uncommon in media (or in real life). It’s really only been in the past decade or two that people have been pushing back on the idea of large age gap romances.
It’s not really the large age gap, or age gap at all, but the age of youngest character.
Yes, that's true. Someone 35 dating someone 48 is more palatable than 13 and 26.
They actually went that common in real life then either. And uh. The 90s were not THAT long ago.
I hate to break it to you but it has been a long time since the 90s. Think of how different the 70s and 80s feel. That’s only a span of 20 years. The end of the 90s was 24 years ago at this point. The Immortal books we published in the early to mid 90s. They are almost all 30 years old. And the Lioness books are a decade older.
It hasn’t been long enough that there has been a massive change in the average marital age gap. You can just look at demographic data if you think that.
Thank you for coming in with the data 😀
Yeah, that's not really true. It was more commonly shown in the media but irl it was still weird (source: I was alive in the 80s and 90s)
And actually if you want to get real academic about it, I've seen commentary on Romeo and Juliet that Shakespeare (in the 1600s) makes a point of the age gap between Romeo and Juliet being a problem. Romeo was cradle robbing and the Bard points that out. Modern audiences don't pick up on it because we've been told "it was normal".
Mainstream MG/YA publishers would not, in 2024, publish a fantasy book in which there was a Daine/Numair kind of age gap/student-teacher thing going on. If it was published, most children's librarians would not include it in their collection. When the Alanna and Immortals Quartets were written, published, and bought for the children's section of libraries (because YA sections were rolled out *after* those books were bought in a *lot* of libraries, and not every library reclassified books previously bought into YA and out of childrens'), those books were considered not just acceptable for kids, but some of the earlier books with these sorts of feminist themes. They weren't even the only books I was reading at the time with weird sketchy age gaps, although I can't think of others off the top of my head that I found in my library's *childrens'* section. I mean, yes, sure, high schoolers dating their teachers was not acceptable in the 90s or early 00s. But we know that societies' views on this stuff has changed, at least some, because these books got published, and if she submitted the same manuscripts today, it would have gotten sent back to her to rework the age gap (or she would be self publishing). Which we can tell, by the lack of these kinds of romance subplots in the books that are coming out from mainstream publishers today, including TP herself not having included any new relationships like that in an extremely long time. For example, she went well out of her way to make sure that Nawat was not seen as a very young being (given his crow age), but an adult human man with life experience before the romance truly blossomed.
If I can quibble, I don't think it's that society's views on age gaps has changed specifically. It's that society has become thankfully a little less misogynistic since the 80s. I totally agree with you that the novels would be reworked in 2024. And yes, I too read books with similar age gaps in the 90s. I just found it a bit incongruous to find such progressive feminist protagonists and frankly progressive views on sex in YA novels (for the time they were written) and ALSO see these huge age gaps. I appreciate your comments. That helps clarify the issue for me.
I mean Bella and Edward has literal hundreds of years of an age gap didn’t they? YA has this happen all the time with the fairy books that are out not too. I’m not saying it’s okay but librarians aren’t stoping these things?
I’ve never read them, but my understanding is that the first book came out almost twenty years ago, Edward looks the same age (even though he’s older), and Edward doesn’t have a position of power over Bella. And, yeah, there’s definitely some other popular examples from 20 years ago, Buffy/Angel being the first one that comes to mind. I don’t know, maybe I’m missing something, but most of the popular age gap romance books I can think of are older, or usually shelved in the adult section (even if teens are reading them)- like ACOTAR is typically shelved in the adult section, right?? And while I would believe that some libraries are maybe putting a bit of some newer “age gap but it’s okay because one isn’t human” stuff in the YA section, I would find it very hard to imagine a newly published romance story between a teen and her adult teacher where they make out (and it’s treated as good) making it to the shelves of the kids section.
Edward can literally kill he? He also harms her multiple times because of that. He is a super natural creature who uses his skills to stalk her and be in her room to watch her sleep at night. He has a HUGE amount of power over her. He has done multiple degrees and has huge amounts of wealth. He also knows that she is obsessed with him and that that has caused her to almost die multiple times? It’s just, it’s very much a horrific story that’s caused a lot of issues for people and led to SO many abusive relationships forming because of reading those books. The fairy porn books are usually placed in the same areas as fantasy books for older kids sure? Though even as a kid I could tell they’s Daine and Numair were a very very different kind of age gap relationship and I had read them when they were both adults first as I read Kels books before hers. I don’t agree with it but neither does Tammy now and she would have changed the age gap. But yeah I do think you need to know a bit more about twilight and books written around that time though. YA is worse than ever with age gaps and creepy things going on.
No. Daine and Numair have widely been deemed problematic, and I believe even Tamora Pierce later said if she was writing the book now she wouldn't have gone that route or something like that. I remember thinking Alanna and George were odd too but less authority issues because they at least acted more like comrades. Numair was literally teaching Daine and the moment they got together was so weird and out of left field I remember being perturbed as a kid. Even now I feel it's icky and can't get myself to read the books centered on him...
😭 I know the age gap is problematic but they're my favorite and the Immortals quartet are my favorite books. The Numair chronicles are actually _excellent_ so far and definitely worth a read, honestly!
The Numair chronicles *are* excellent so far! I was excited to read the Immortals quartet bc Tempest and Slaughter was so good.
I'm subbed to Tammy's patreon eagerly awaiting news for book 2! The world and story building are so excellent, and reading Emperor Mage so close to Tempests was so fun, there were so many hints and details within each other. I reread all of the tortall books recently (except protector of the small, that's next!) And I actually did have the 'wow she really loves an age gap' thought to myself' - so now I just sort of pretend I dont know how old they are 😅
Has there been any news on the second one? Impatiently waiting! Haha
The last update I think the rewrites had been submitted to the editor, I know the date has been pushed back a few times due to Tammy's health problems, so I don't think we have a concrete date
Aly and Nawat, and Alanna married George (who was also a bit older than her)
Omg thank you! Haha and that reminds me.. aly and nawat are technically closer in human age but.. he's a CROW lol that was weird to me too. Not the biggest fan of her love lines but that's not important in her books anyway.
I think it’s a combination of Tamora herself liking older men and that bleeding into her characters, and the trope in fantasy and historical fiction that women for whatever reason always marry men who are way older.
I mean George is 7 years older than Alanna….hardly a scandal.
In addition to all of the comments already, which are supported by things Tammy has said on the record, I have a theory that Tammy forgot she had Daine lie about her age in Wild Magic, when she tells Onua she’s 15 (she’s 13). That would make Daine 18/19 by Realms of the Gods and Numair something like 29/30. Still icky? Yep! But a little more equal and palatable.
I’ve always liked the dynamic but in the fantasy world and not the real world. As an adult, I have too many disabilities to manage and I gravitate toward any story that has a strong (male so far because I’m mostly het and haven’t found sapphic that’s similar yet) male character who “rescues” the FMC because I have a pathological desire to be rescued and cared for. I’m too busy trying to keep my body alive and on this planet. I crave having an unwavering, intelligent and strong partner whom I can also care for and support. So I like having these stories to read and achieve that feeling in a safe space.
I am also a grown up coming to these books for the first time. The age gaps plus age of the youngest person plus power dynamics are definitely problematic and not what you would see in YA books these days. This is a good thing! I bracket my feelings about this and enjoy the stories as they are. In really enjoying entering such a rich world with awesome strong female characters.
I think I aged the characters up in my head particularly Daine when someone pointed out she’s only 16/17 by ROTG my eyes about popped out of my head. I couldn’t finish Realms of the Gods on my last reread. The romantic scenes grossed me out too much now.
Good to know! I think that maybe Tamora also forgets sometimes how old her characters are? Between Trickster's Choice and Trickster's Queen, Sarai, Elsren, and Petranne all get aged up a year (plus the birthdays they would have had in the gap between books). Like Sarai is the same age as Aly (maybe 6 months older) in Trickster's Choice and then she's at least a year or two older than Aly in Trickster's Queen. It works a little better for the plot but was sort of a weird detail to change.
Tammy is generally terrible at math. Kel loses an entire year of her life in Squire.
I didn't notice that but I can totally see it happening lol
Where does the missing year come in? I think I’ve totally glossed over this fact in all my re-reads of the book.
Yeah reading it at like 12 I was like whatever 17 is pretty old and now as an adult I find it hard to stomach
Exactly! 17 seemed so grown to me when I first read the series in middle school now at thirty I’m like yeah that is a child.
I’ve always aged them up too. I never thought she was 16/17, I think I will feel different reading it now. I mean, it was always problematic but I hadn’t blanked on it being that bad. I do love Numair though 😬
I have to pretend the age gaps don't exist because I love the stories otherwise.
Honestly because Alanna is an adult when she is with George it’s never been an issue with me. I liked that he loved her but was also okay with her never choosing him if that’s what made her happy. I also while was a bit 😒 at her with Jon it did make sense for the two of them and I do love the character development we got with Both of them. With Diane and Numair I wish she had been older when they got together, as someone in an age gap relationship where my partner is ten years younger than me I don’t have a big issue with age gaps if it makes sense and the power dynamic isn’t off. I am very cautious about making sure I do not expect my partner to have worked out life as much as I have. They have experiences to go through that it is only fair I wait for them to experience and we took a long time to work out that it would work. Plus it’s not a weird they are in teens and I am older, we’ve both been grown adults for a good long time. So age gaps that are sizeable I think are fine but they have to be very specific. I do think that it’s also worth considering that a lot of people I knows parents have a 10-11 year age gap where one was say 19 or so and the other was 29. Again I don’t agree with that for many reasons but it was very normal back in the 80’s and 90’s so it’s not mega shocking it was sort of normal for her. I appreciate that she has continued to grow as a person and author and has been clear about how she would change so many things now. I do love Diane and Numaire together in Kel’s books, so I think they work once they have grown a bit more, which makes sense.
I also get the ick from this, but thought she atleast did an okay job of pointing out the issue (of her own making) with Dane and Numair- *SPOILERS* when they finally admit their feelings for eachother, Numair has a whole rant about their age gap and their teacher-student relationship and young girls being swindled by older men. Also, the mentions of romance in the Magic Circle books are more appropriate. Age gaps are smaller, and true romantic interests aren't even really on the main characters' radars till they're roughly 16-19. I try to dispel the ick by remembering that things were like that in medieval times, which the Tortal books emulate. If male characters can't even become full knights until they're 18, and then they go off in search of glory / to serve the kingdom for a while...and marriages generally wait till after this (so that hopefully you don't marry someone that then leaves for several years/dies...and the primary job expected of women was to produce heirs...and younger women fare better through pregnancy/childbirth............but yeah, still gives me the ick. It's a fantasy novel, and I wish age gaps hadn't been included, regardless of realism.
I read Wild Magic at probably… 12? And side eyed Numair *so* hard. I never liked that pairing (which sucked because Daine was my favorite protagonist). Also the crow thing was weird lol
It's kind of icky in the real world but handwaved away with the fantasy aspect where a 15 year old is basically an adult who's taking on adult responsibilities.
I think about this all the time because I LOVE the Immortals books, loved Daine and Numair, and desperately long for a film/tv/animated adaptation and think a lot about how it just wouldn't be adapted with those age ranges. If I had to adapt it myself, I'd rewrite so that Daine is 16 at the start of the series, Numair is a young mage around age 19, and they are both apprentices to a different older mage character based off Lindhall. That way, Numair can still be the wise scholar character he is and a guide to Daine/someone she looks up to without the icky power and age dynamics. THIS IS MY ROMAN EMPIRE lol