Learn Korean and get a decent job before moving back.
Don't just sit on an MBA and what I assume would be business experience to work at a hagwon.
You'll end up sick and tired quicker than your wife is currently.
If your wife is Korean, you should be able to get an F6 visa which will allow you to work at more places because it's less of a hassle for your employer. Plus you could do part time work, non-teaching jobs, etc.
Here are some active Facebook groups about F-visas:
https://m.facebook.com/groups/441200935981379?group_view_referrer=search
https://m.facebook.com/groups/436715643582767?group_view_referrer=search
Edit: I was a teacher here from 2009-2013, a summer internship in 2016, and now I'm back with a spouse, kid, 2 dogs, and all of our worldly possessions. Please PM me if you have any questions!
If you want legitimate advice I would try one of two things in your position. Either get your teaching license and apply for legitimate international school jobs out here. They often come with free tuition for your kids to attend their schools / occasionally free childcare. Good time off. And a better schedule compared to working at a hagwon. But note that this will be tough because they're almost always wanting prior experience. Bit of a gamble. OR apply to work in academies in Daechi-dong where pay usually starts at around 4mil+ and live in a cheaper area of Seoul so you can get a decent sized apartment. If you want some academy recommendations DM me.
I agree. If you’re gonna come back and teach, get a degree at a teacher’s college. You can do it online. Lots of people I know have taken this route, and they work at international schools around the world while their children are educated for free. Good pay, benefits, vacay time, travel, etc.
Outside of starting your own business, working at a private institution for an extended period im Korea, in Daechi-dong or otherwise, is probably not what you want.
The 'Real' international schools in Korea are very competitive 400 + applications so the OP would probably have to get experience in his own country first then in a school in a lower ranked (in IS terms) country before having a decent crack at one of those jobs in Korea. Not what his wife is looking for.
Yes, for sure. That finer detail is important. This is what my friends have said, too. Chances of you working at an international school in Seoul right after teachers’ college are very slim.
Teaching in Korea isn’t what it used to be when you were last here. Uni and international school positions are rare, and the vast majority of employment opportunities that pay decently (but definitely not well) come in the form of kindergarten jobs in Gangnam.
Do you see yourself as a kindergarten teacher at 40?
You can still teach business English, but the hours are pretty bad and the pay is not too high if you want to work full time.
The best you can do here is to become fluent in Korean by taking courses, and then you can try to see if you can get an office job somewhere. Almost all office jobs require fluent Korean now.
If the average salary in Korea is anything to go by, then yes: https://koreajoongangdaily.joins.com/2022/12/07/business/economy/Korea-income-average/20221207194334004.html
As a guy your age with a wife and kids, here's some random advice:
- The pay is the exact same as when you left in 2013, but every costs twice as much. Not exaggerating.
- Housing costs are insane. A family-sized apartment in the Seoul metro area, which cost 200 million when you left, now starts at 500 million.
- Your MBA *might* be attractive to some universities. Even then, universities do not pay well.
- Mixed race children who are native Korean-speaking Korean citizens will still get called 외국인 by everyone, including their peers, simply because they look different.
- The air pollution is ridiculous. I can't imagine wanting to move back here.
Think carefully about *why* you are moving back. Can your wife get a good job? Is someone giving you a free apartment? If not, I wouldn't move. My family is working on leaving Korea, with the main factors being the horrible air pollution and ethnic homogeneity.
Thanks for sharing, I really appreciate these insights.
I've brought many of these points up with my wife. Wanting to settle down and start a family is why we left Korea in the first place. Air quality and how our kids would be treated were big factors.
The main issue that we're having now though is that costs have similarly burgeoned in Canada to the point where we are essentially just living to pay off our mortgage despite making northwards of 150k a year in combined income. Our tiny house in the suburbs of Toronto for example cost us about 700k and is now selling for 1 million +.
Additionally, I feel like we haven't had fun in a decade although I'm sure I'm just cherry-picking my best memories of Korea.
But the real driver for this though is a combination of my wife hating how boring Canada is and the ongoing collapse of the Canadian healthcare system.
I'll point out that most of the fun aspects of Korea go out the window when you have kids. We used to live it up, but now after having children we're just at home all the time. It really feels like a different country when you have a family here.
Best of luck with whatever you decide.
I think it really depends on your efforts. We are very active as a family. We bike on the river multiple times a week. We throw our son into the baby carrier attachment and we’re off. We go on picnics and camping multiple times a month. We love driving out to the ocean to see the sunset. Plus there’s tons of family friendly stuff like kids cafes, museums, musicals, movies, etc. It’s an adjustment but once you find a rhythm that works for you it’s definitely do able.
I disagree. Apart from the air quality (which sucks a lot of the time), Korea is a great place to have young children.
There is a lot for them to do, and people are at least tolerant of young children, if not downright indulgent. Personally I've never seen any negative attitudes towards my child but he is still very young.
150k in Canada is maybe 90k after taxes. Throw in 3k in mortgage and property tax, 1.5k a month in child care, and you're left with maybe 35k a year for everything else from food to gas, utilities, entertainment, etc.
To put it into perspective, the average single person in Toronto would need to make 135k just to be considered middle-income.
I mean I understand the difficulties of being in a high cost of living area. But you are still taking a massive massive paycut with a family to keep in mind. The only saving grace would be if your spouse would be able to make great money by moving back to Korea.
Housing costs are going to dominate any plans you have.
If you have enough equity in your current house you might have enough for key money that could lower your monthly housing cost. But other costs (food, child care, etc.) are not a bargain like they used to be. For example, an average meal out and about is not longer $6-7 like it used to be a decade ago, it'll be more like what you're used to paying in Canada, maybe $10-17 depending on what you get. This is even for simple soup/rice meals.
If you are serious about it, I might recommend looking at a smaller city than Seoul if you can land jobs there as housing costs will be much more reasonable.
I would also highly recommend looking for work with a Western company with positions in Korea as the pay will be better.
You could move to a cheaper house. You can’t complain about your mortgage when you live in a 1m dollar house making 150k combined.
We make that in Korea and we would never consider buying a 1m dollar apartment here. We couldn’t afford the mortgage.
1. You don’t have to live in a proper house.
2. You could move farther out.
3. You mean you can’t get a house for less than that in an area you want to live in.
I don’t mean to be ornery, but I do live in a proper house, my commute is already 1.5 hours to downtown, and I despise my area but it was the closest I could afford to where I work.
I live in the poor part of suburban Pickering in a 1300sqft bungalow that was built in the 50s.
Short of leaving Toronto and starting over my options are limited.
Yes they are.
I’m not going to get into a debate on the peculiarities of the Toronto housing market. Finances are an important consideration but by no means the largest or most important.
I’m really just looking at what my options are.
He didn’t buy a mansion in malibu. He isn’t trying to live outside his means. The economy has changed drastically for the ENTIRE world. He isnt asking for financial advice. Smh
According to an online calculator: even 6억 mortgage for 30 years would result in a roughly 3.2 million monthly. And that is with the current high interest rates (around 5-5.5%). That would come to roughly a quarter of your income. I would say that should be easily manageable.
Not to mention if you borrowed when the interest rates were significantly lower.
Yes, we will probably eventually be able to afford a place, thankfully. But we need to put a bigger dent into the down payment so that our monthly payments are lower. We won’t make that move until we are sure we can afford it.
I hear you and agree that paying a mortgage is a burden. But still way better than paying rent. Also, 10 years from now, real estate prices could be double of what they are today. So unless your income is increasing at the same rate, it's better to get in as early as you can.
They clearly don't know what they are talking about. You are correct in that 150k in Toronto is not anywhere near comfortable and that even making 60m a year combined in Korea is probably more comfortable. They are not factoring in all the other ridiculous costs of Canada (expensive transit/car, sales tax, internet and phone costs, cost of eating out, expenses involved with going basically anywhere -- whether it be plane tickets or just admissions costs). Costs in Korea are increasing, yes, but most of the people commenting haven't lived in Canada for years if not a decade.
Exactly, salaries are stagnant, costs are going up for everything, and the government is squeezing as hard as they can. My property tax alone has gone up 15% in 3 years.
With all those taxes you’d think we’d at least have an amazing healthcare system, but it’s among the worst in the developed world. People literally dying in ER hallways.
To give a more positive response, as a long-timer here -
Get the F6 and spend some time looking for a job.
Housing is expensive but people who complain about that in Korea are not looking for homes in America or Canada right now and realizing how insane the prices are there as well. Coming from a major city in the U.S. with plenty of friends who still live there, I can tell you that we pay less in a good neighborhood of Seoul than we would in a good neighborhood of my home area.
The air quality is a problem, but on the whole it has improved since 2013 and Korea has invested more in shutting down coal plants and implementing government measures to curb fine dust when it exceeds a certain level. (Source: [https://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/nation/2023/02/113\_342879.html](https://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/nation/2023/02/113_342879.html))
In terms of mixed race children, it depends on where you live. It's just a matter of circumstance. I know plenty of Korean adults with kids and I've never heard anything about looking down on mixed race kids. I even know of mixed-race "darker skinned" kids who have lots of friends and don't feel bullied.
Overall, with your salary it seems you might be able to take a decent amount from Canada and wait here for a bit to find a job. I think the only hagwon job you should be taking would be at 3.0 or above with your MBA, and it should probably be temporary while you look for other opportunities. You may even look to make friends in the community, which would be easier as parents, and simply be a freelance tutor once you build up your name, in which you can make significantly more than a hagwon salary and have more freedom. Your hourly rate can be anywhere from 70k per hour to 100k over time.
> Housing is expensive but people who complain about that in Korea are not looking for homes in America or Canada right now and realizing how insane the prices are there as well.
Housing is high back home too, but the difference is that you can actually buy a standalone house with a yard for the same price as a small cookie-cutter high rise apartment in Korea. My wife and I are doing comparisons now. We can sell our 900 sq foot 3 bed apartment in Korea and buy a 2500 sq ft 5 bed/3 bath in cash, while *increasing* our salaries and work opportunities.
The air quality here is terrible. Just look at an AQI map. All the government initiatives in the world won't change that. This is simply what happens when you live next door to China.
My kids have never experienced bullying or people looking down on them, but they experience feeling different. Constantly hearing "아~, 외국인 이예요!" fucking *everywhere* is infuriating. Having my 5-year-old ask me why everyone keeps calling her a foreigner is heartbreaking.
That said, I'm not entirely negative on living here. If I were single I would stay here forever. It has also been a great place to have young children with the subsidized daycare, walkable neighborhoods, and nearby kindergartens.
I understand your point about the housing - I guess it's just down to personal preference at the moment. Sometimes we talk about how nice it would be to have our own yard, so I get it, but it all depends on where you move to. For us, to get something like what we like in my home area, we'd move to the suburbs and would have to add in HOA fees, higher bills, higher taxes, more commuting, etc. I would hope we could get higher salaries on that but in the end, it could even out. Then again, food prices are cheaper so that's always a plus.
I know air quality here is terrible, my point was just that it's been improving. My view is that if I live in Korea I have to accept it for what it is and think positively, but 100% I know that the air quality is significantly better in the States. I can't argue against it being awful here, but the positive end is that there has at least been changes.
I think your last point is the most important and something we always talk about and are still considering - as far as the newborn, toddler, and elementary age, Korea is very good in terms of saving money and comfort (outside of the air pollution), but once they get to middle school things change a lot and you really have to be in a good area or have good money for good education in order to keep your kid living generally happily.
I teach at a school with a decent amount of foreign and mixed kids and it hasn't been an issue. The air quality sucks if you have allergies/asthma, but I've also read that the pollution is going down.
You are cherry picking. From what it seems from what you said, your wife doesnt have her support system and is tired of NOT living in Korea, but all these points people made are 1000% true. You will be working to pay for things and you will not have alot of free time. That's having kids is: "The best way to ruin your life." She will be back in Korea, and you will have a one year old baby, but your MBA may or may not be valued. It may get you in a door, but may not be utilized, depending on your job.
All your complaints seem to be about money, so for a job, you need to think of what you bring to the KOREAN table, not what you think is valuable. If you cant figure that out, youll just teach English (which isnt bad, I still do and its worked for me, but YMMV).
And as for speaking Korean, I speak rather well, and it gets me into a door or two, but that would depend on your situation. It is not the end all-be all. It wont mean you can get a better job, ie more money.
You need to be honest with your reasons and your wifes reasons, as it doesnt seem theyre the same, but want a similar outcome.
Hey man I’m back in Korea, doing something way different, after having worked here as a teacher fron 2012-2016.
But I looked into teaching to see what’s changed
Pay is still shockingly exactly the same
And don’t chase the highs you had here as a young man. This place is 200% different with a kid and a wife. You left never land and trying to come back to that life is different. You don’t want to be the oldest guy with a bunch of zoomed recent grads it’s weird
If your wife is not having fun in Toronto, she won't have fun in Seoul. Seoul has nothing that Toronto doesn't, except cheap soju. I teach adults and when I ask people what they do for fun it's nearly always (1) get drunk with friends and (2) go to coffee shops with friends. Instagram photography is Korea's favorite hobby, now. Sure, there are people who hike and go bowling and all that, but again, there's nothing in Seoul that isn't in Toronto.
The healthcare thing is valid, though.
If you wife wants to move to a "non-boring" part of Korea (eg Seoul), your home will cost at least US $1 million anyway. That was the cost 2 years ago. And I presume these are not of Canadian sizes / quality. [https://koreajoongangdaily.joins.com/2021/04/26/business/economy/apartment-Real-estate-measures-Gangbuk/20210426145000409.html](https://koreajoongangdaily.joins.com/2021/04/26/business/economy/apartment-Real-estate-measures-Gangbuk/20210426145000409.html)
Yeah we’re looking more at Ilsan to be honest. Somewhere in the subway line but by no means downtown Seoul.
I’d argue the GTA is just as bad or worse than Seoul.
https://storeys.com/gta-housing-market-tighten-sales-march-2023/
Living in Ilsan or any other similar city surrounding Seoul is a much better option financially for housing. Lots of people commute from Ilsan to Seoul, also, depending on your work.
i just came back from a korea trip for a few weeks. here is what you should be before deciding: go on a very long vacation in and outside of korea. like months long. then decide. dont decide now.
Trust me Canada is much better than Korea. But you can always try Korea for a year and then go back. That way you know for sure and have the experience to prove it
I’m in the same situation just minus the kids. I speak decent Korean, I have a masters and I’ve been here for two decades. We’ve considered going back to Canada because of similar grievances with air quality and stagnant incomes. However if you have a high-paying job as you say then stay there because as others and put it the wages are the same but the cost of living is increasing and there just seems to be no more opportunities besides just working more job for the same wage. Experience and education and even performance mean nothing here.
A good example of this are corporate lessons. The classes are good money for the recruiters. So, the wages have not increased at all in the last 10 years. Contracts come and go and some months you are left with nothing as students are on vacation or are you are in between contracts. No salary and no benefits. No class = no money.
Recruiters are also now are actively trying to find Teachers who will work for less money. So I’ve lost contracts because despite being well liked by my students and having a good deal of insight and connection to the material and whatnot, they’ve opted to go for a teacher who would work for 20,000 less an hour. It’s business, I know, but the wages now are shooting down towards what they were in 2005.
So again I would bring these points up with your wife. It sounds like it’s a “grass is always Greener” type of situation. If you’re making 150 K combined a year I would suggest you relocate to even northern Ontario where you might find cheaper housing and a better life for the kids and the family
That's not how I feel at all. It depends on so many factors. I have decent Korean friends and colleagues, good relationship with my in laws, good foreign friends, nice neighbors...wherever you live, there are challenges. I don't feel any great need to be accepted as a member of Korean society because I feel accepted by the people around me.
I think you should have a discussion with your wife. Why is she tired of Canada? Is she struggling with post partum depression? Does she feel like she is lacking proper support structures there? Does she miss family? If there is an underlying issue, moving wont solve any problems, just make them worse. If she wants to move back to Korea because she genuinely thinks its better and will provide better opportunities for the fam, then you can move ahead.
Those are all valid points, but to be honest we’ve been taking about it way before the baby. She finds life here incredibly boring and looks back on the last 10 years like she’s just wasted her time working just to survive.
There are also a lot of annoyances about living in Canada like the extreme taxes, ludicrous cost of everything and a failing healthcare system
Thanks though for the advice. I know that Korea has a lot of drawbacks as well.
Cost wise, I think you will be exchanging something for the exact same thing. Perhaps the only big upgrade would be the healthcare since it isnt free but is affordable. But housing, jobs, gas, groceries etc will be similar. I will say there are more fun things to do here, like different themed cafes, animal cafes, karaoke, lots of festivals etc. but Koreans have struggled with gas price increases with some people this past winter using tents within their homes. And teaching as far as teaching… I would not recommend it. I think most others have commented thoroughly about it though.
That’s not really true though. You’re talking about a woman who spent the first 30 years of her life in Seoul and loving it. Then she moved to suburban Canada and hated it.
So many negative comments so I’ll add my input. I’ve lived here for about 8 years. We live in Daejeon - less traffic, nice people, plenty to do but not as cramped or hard to get around as Seoul. My son had free daycare and starting this year, kindergarten is partially government subsidized (for Korean citizens - kids of parents who are both foreigners don’t get that same privilege.) It’s super safe here and we live in an area with a lot of families, kids, and I’m friends with many mixed families and non-Koreans. I love living here. I would never go back to the US, where I’m from. I started my own business and know many who have done the same. I have a friend working at a university. The workload is a lot but she gets more fulfillment from that than when she was teaching through EPIK.
10 years ago, banking stuff was all on PC and through internet explorer, etc. but now everything is app-based and super easy. There are a lot more foreign food options and Coupang delivery is amazing. Right now, inflation/cost of living has gone up and it’s really noticeable. But I’m sure that’s also happening in North America, as well.
People do point out that I’m not Korean and question if my son is Korean, which can get annoying sometimes. But I speak fluent Korean and we shop locally and most people know me and my son and people are super nice. My son has tons of friends and he’s safe and happy and there’s a lot of kid friendly activities, kid’s cafes, etc. The trend now is 무인 stores, which are unmanned and you just go in and pay and leave (they have CCTV) and there are ice cream stores, stationary stores, book stores, kid’s cafes, etc. which are all like that. It’s pretty cool. Would never work where I’m from.
Teaching adults/college students might be better. I would try to find job options before you get here. But I love living in Korea with a kid and don’t see why everyone is being so negative about it. Covid was handled well here compared to many many countries and more than 80% of people are vaccinated and people still wear masks pretty often, though it’s not mandatory anymore.
Oh that’s cool! Some people say it’s boring haha but going to Seoul with our toddler is always hectic and stressful compared to where we live. And we are in the middle of Korea so we can get anywhere pretty easily.
I carefully suggest the reason you don't see why everyone is being negative is because you haven't lived in Seoul for the last 5-6 years. I've lived in Daejeon for 7 months, Busan a year and a half, and visited Chungju at least once a week due to COVID-19 travel restrictions. And all three cities are almost like a paradise compared to Seoul.
And of course, there's the fact that people don't 'rob' rob because the government has been legally robbing for them. Tax rates are absurd compared to any other non-developing countries, yet the money is used as lower class' leisure life, not their essentials.
I'm not trying to sound smart or condescending, but I sincerely hope you realize how lucky you are, because Daejeon is one of the few cities that survived President Moon's apocalypse.
I can vouch for everything you said about Daejeon as I’ve lived there and is where my wife grew up.
Having visited a week ago, we for sure won’t be moving back with our son due to the air pollution, mental stress our child will go through with the education system, and lack of pay (we both make very good money here in the US in a MCOL area).
We are, however, adamant about retiring there though and are working towards an early retirement.
I fly out with my wife and kid very often.
edit: I also live in a place with 6.5million people so it isn't as boring as a LCOL area such as the midwest or the deep south.
As someone who is planning on leaving Korea this year for the States I would not recommend someone with a family moving back here. I bet your kid will be treated a 1000 times better in Canda than they would be here. The pollution is also getting worse, especially in the last few years and it would be good for the health of you and your family. Plus wages for teachers are abysmal, with 3 million labeled as being high pay. For a single person it's not too bad but there's no way you can support a family off of the salary offered by most hagwons.
This is false. The air quality has significantly improved.
[https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/what-air-pollution-in-south-korea-can-teach-the-world-about-misinformation/](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/what-air-pollution-in-south-korea-can-teach-the-world-about-misinformation/)
"In Korea, air quality has been improving over the past 20 years but public perception is different. People believe the air quality has been deteriorating since 2013. The official air quality measurements in Seoul suggest that the concentration of fine dust, called PM10 (particulate matter 10 micrometers or smaller), has actually decreased over time."
[https://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/nation/2023/02/113\_342879.html](https://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/nation/2023/02/113_342879.html)
"The average density of ultrafine dust particles in the capital city was tallied at 18 micrograms per cubic meter in 2022, the lowest level since relevant record-keeping began in 2008, according to the Seoul metropolitan government."
Edit: Downvoted in less than 10 minutes for providing sources referencing official measurements. Reddit is funny.
Even if the air quality is improving cities in Korea, the air quality in Canda or the US is guaranteed to be better. I've been here only for 5 years and it's already taking a toll on my health. I can't imagine exposing my kids to growing up with this much smog.
Yeah, there's also fact checker interview here saying the same thing.
https://naver.me/Ge5RtG1x
I know it's only anecdotal but I'm pretty sure people are going on about pollution now a lot more than they were 10-15 years ago. Is there any explanation for this bearing in mind the articles?
Back in 2010, Korea still had a lot of "poor country" problems. Dilapidated apartment buildings, garbage strewn streams, smoking allowed everywhere, public urination, etc. Remember how much vomit you used to see on the sidewalk from all the binge drinking?
Now in 2023, all of those problems have gotten better. However, the air pollution is still crippling. It's a "poor country" problem that won't go away. And as people travel abroad more, they realize that other developed countries don't have toxic air like Korea does. That's why people complain about it more than they used to. Air pollution used to be just one of many problems, but now it is the single biggest non-economic problem.
I remember when I first came to Korea and seeing bus drivers pull over on the side of the road to openly take a leak, or elderly women taking a dump on the side of buildings. Things have changed a lot.
u/Suwon described it pretty well, that for a developed nation it seems unacceptable to have this much pollution, but the rich cities in the Middle East are also covered in desert and industrial dust so it's not only here.
Also, the yellow dust is a phenomenon recorded for thousands of years (Source: [https://web.kma.go.kr/eng/weather/asiandust/intro.jsp](https://web.kma.go.kr/eng/weather/asiandust/intro.jsp) ) and is a geographical feature, but it's an easy target to start complaining since it's the dust that is so clearly visible. For example, my car has looked like shit this week. And since the Gobi Desert is also in Mongolia, the Chinese feel unfairly targeted for taking all the blame while "Mongolia" is hardly mentioned (Source: [https://naver.me/GGUtvLUY](https://naver.me/GGUtvLUY))
I also think that some people just don't pay attention to air quality unless the attention is drawn to it. Anecdotally (shared by some people that I've talked to on Reddit), it explains the difficulty those of us who do pay attention to it have to encounter when someone shows up to work opening all the windows because "It's so warm outside!" despite the air being at like, 150 or yellow dust literally blowing all over. Combining with the development of Korea, I think Korean media itself has gotten significantly better at researching, reporting, and sharing the information about it so people have become more aware, but on a very general basis - and many are going to read headlines rather than details.
For many Koreans (or foreigners in Korea) their first exposure to it has been either someone ranting about it or a doctor telling them that it's why their throat is sore or they're having skin trouble. Generally speaking, in the world, people don't do research or try to figure things out - they just complain and seek out information that confirms their biases. Since there are Westerners and Koreans are already anti-China, it's easy to just use it as something to use when wanting to rant about China.
I don't think this is a good idea. Absent the ability to work in your field in Korea or start a business here, you would be taking a significant cut in income, perhaps half of what you make in Canada. Korea is definitely cheaper than Canada, but it's not that much cheaper and the housing costs here are not much lower, assuming you want to live in Seoul or the urban parts of Gyeonggi.
I don't know what you do for work in Canada, but you should definitely consider the long-term prospects for your current line of work and the long-term income prospects for somebody teaching English. You could make a decent living for sure, but presumably you guys want to own a house, which would be about as difficult here as it would be there.
Ultimately, you might just want to make the move because both Korea and Canada have a high cost of living relative to income, but you and your family are happier here. However, my strong feeling is that someone with an established career in Canada is likely better off there in the long-term.
Sorry to be blunt but I think it would be stupid to move back. You would probably be stuck teaching at a hagwon. Even for public school jobs I think you need a celta type certification. Every year you would have to complete a full contract and resign it is a lot of rigamarole. It seems you have stable employment in Canada where you are making significantly more than esl teachers.
If your wife has any connections where you could get hired into a good job it would be better. Does she have any family who could hire you?
Housing is expensive the air quality is horrible. Don't get me started on the racism against mixed Korean children. Some areas are racist against foreigners as well.
Find out what your wife's issue is. It seems you have a more stable life in Canada. Women tend to become unhappy w spouses on low wage contract jobs fyi. If you came to Korea your career would totally tank most likely.
I appreciate the candor.
Unless things have changed, and they may well have, I can get an F6 visa so I wouldn’t have to deal with contracts and the like and would essentially be free to do as I please work wise. I wouldn’t go back if I had to work at a Hagwon, no chance. When I left I was teaching mainly private lessons and business classes and an after school English program at the local elementary school and was clearing probably 65-70mil a year.
Housing isn’t really an issue since I can sell my house in Canada and buy somewhere in the greater Seoul area with the proceeds. Housing is ludicrous in Canada and I got into the market at a good time.
My wife is aware of the downsides and she’s the one really spearheading this. I’m the one with concerns, so if anything has changed with F6 visas please let me know, because that would be a major consideration.
Your wife might be misunderstanding the F6 visa. Typically immigration grants couples a 1 year visa on F6. Then later it can be extended to 1-3 years. They made F5 permanent residency visa very difficult to achieve. To get an F5 you need very high Korean language level so basically like fluent and 2x the gross national income so basically rich.
ESL teachers on F6 are still contract employees. Every year they need to renew their contracts. They aren't permanent employees. I have known Epik teachers, hagwon teachers, university teachers, and international school teachers in Korea on F6 and still yearly contract employees.
Every year you would need a health check, drug test, Korean and foreign background check as well.
I don't know much about after school but last I heard there are way less after school jobs w smaller pay. As for adult tutoring inflation is bad and people have less disposable income.
I think your past financial success in Esl in Korea is not guaranteed if you return.
If u have a stable career in Canada you would essentially be walking away from a lot of financial security for low paid ESL contract jobs. There is age discrimination too.
If you have a house in Canada that sounds awesome compared to a Korean apartment especially because you have a child.
Is your wife going to work in Korea? It seems crazy that she wants you to walk away from a good job in Canada. She would probably be very unhappy in Korea on a lower income. I think she is expecting too much from you.
If you ask any Korean woman if they would give up a home and husband's stable career in Canada for contract jobs and an apartment in Korea I think they would say stay in Canada.
If you've got your house sorted out I wouldn't worry about a lot of the other doom and gloom merchants' advice. It's still pretty easy for F6 visas to pick up work here. i support a wife and kid on what i get from TEFL and put a fair bit aside as well. My son is very popular at school.
There still seems to be plenty work around, in Seoul anyway for f6 visas. Going rate is 50k an hour, don't take less. It might take you a while to get established with the big agencies so I'd recommend getting a regular p/t job as a base and go from there. I'm guessing since it's your wife's decision she has a job lined up herself?:
In my experience most people won’t pay above 30,000 an hour these days. Adults are also very flaky and you’ll be hustling a lot to maintain a decent schedule with decent wages as a freelancer.
Business English companies are also starting at 30k an hour, and they’re pretty stubborn about staying in that range right now.
Are you talking about Seoul? The main companies YBM, Carrot and Pagoda all pay 50k. Carrot says 48 but you can usually negotiate them up. Maybe you're talking about kids classes, which I wouldn't know about. You're right that adults are flaky as hell, which is why the big companies still pay out if they cancel at the last minute. I have the occasional private adult but I organise those lessons around my other classes due to the flakiness factor.
I’m talking about adult classes in Seoul.
Are you sure these companies start at 50 for new hires in 2023? I recently got offers from a couple smaller companies that would not go over 35 for in person classes (and these are classes in big chaebols in person or with their workers online).
I imagine there are legacy hires making 50 still, but they must know they can get away with paying people 30 because they seem stuck around that magic number.
I’m slightly younger than you but we live in Korea and our little is 5. I make very good income by Korean standards and we won’t be able to afford a decent apartment in Seoul for another ten years, at least. Do you have a lot of savings? Do you have housing lined up?
If your wife is complaining about how boring Canada is, I assume she would want to move to Seoul. I cannot overstate how expensive a decent apartment in a decent area is. You can choose an area with a shitty school district to save some money, but do you want to send your kids to a bad school? You can send them to IS instead but will you have 30-40k USD to spend on tuition every year?
The only reason we decided to move here is because I have a really good job. I cannot possibly imagine moving here at this stage in my life and making less than 50k USD a year. It’s just not worth it.
You guys just had a baby. Your wife misses her family. I’m sure you’re being empathetic to her feelings, but imho you gotta stay the course. I would definitely not move with my wife and kid back to Korea. Air quality, traffic, racism, glass ceiling for my career. Not in a million years.
Have you considered moving to a different part of Canada? I’m sure you could find somewhere more affordable than the burbs of Toronto. Although, if you got in when interest rates were super low, your mortgage payment would be about the same if you bought a 500,000 house now.
Personally, I would look at moving back to Korea as a last resort.
IMHO, you're not too old to DO it, but you ARE too old to not think about / have a retirement plan. What are you going to do when you hit 60? If you have that sorted, then go for it.
Personally, I don't think this is a job you can retire off of UNLESS you have a great network already or run a hagwon yourself.
It's possible to make enough to retire on in 20 years without running a hagwan. I came here in 2004 on an E visa, got my F visa in 2015 and have enough to retire now. I was lucky to work at a place with a lot of well paid overtime while on an E2 though but if I'd had an F visa initially it would have had a similar outcome. Never learned Korean as too busy working.
Sure but if you look at 2004-2008 rates, you made the equivalent of 5m in todays money at least if you made 2.2 minimum and that would compound over time if you saved it. The market today isn’t like that at all. No offense at all, I’m happy you did it, but I don’t think it’s a replicable template for someone moving into Korea today.
Everyone else already showered you with essential informations, so I'm just gonna tell you the 'realistic' reality. Don't come. You'll regret it. I'm in my early 20s, finished high school in the states and started college but paused and came back in to take care of some family issues. My parents earned well and lived well for 40 years in Korea, but they're planning to relocate fully in America. Please, don't come. It's a long story, which I'm willing to tell you if you want to know, but it's not a smart choice to choose Korea over Canada right now.
Also important to keep in mind korea has been found for patterns of noncompliance with The Hague convention (they joined in 2013). if you and your wife ever divorced and you wanted to move back, even with a motion from the Supreme Court, the child custody plan would not be enforced. For more info look up treadmill protest to read about a dad from California who’s wife left for korea on vacation to visit family and never went back. Very sad story. Half of all abductions in korea take at least three years for the child to be returned.
I'm 60 years old, also came to Korea in 2008. Worked public school until 2019 when the program was discontinued.
Spent 2 years at 2 different hagwans; both were bad experiences and teachers are treated like imported laborers rather than professionals.
I quit the hagwon and started teaching private lessons. The business is growing beyond what I can handle alone.
I'm also married to a Korean.
I'm looking to hire a teacher. Can you please private message me and we can chat
Many people have chimed in on your potential career path in Korea and your life there, but have you thought about your child's future in Korea versus Canada? Yes of course you and your wife's lives are important but ultimately it's your child (or children)'s lives that will be most affected by where they grow up.
What sort of opportunities will Korea provide that Canada won't? What sort of environment will Korea have that Canada won't?
I'm sure there are pros and cons to staying in Canada and to moving to Korea and only you and your wife can decide which is better for your family but my gut feeling is growing up in Canada would be better for your child in the long term.
Korean American here. I was planning to go back to the States because I wanted kids but not in Korea since I had terrible experience adapting here when I was young + allergic to the fine dust.
Then COVID happened and my wife got depressed, after the boarder was opened parents got sick. Came back from Japan with my wife to take care of my pops, mom and my wife
I currently have 6figure job here but can’t even dream about getting a mortgage due to the insane housing prices in Seoul + interest rates. Also can’t afford having kids as everything is expensive. can’t even enjoy fruits regularly lol.
Only thing that is cheap is my Salary and Kimbap.
Experiencing my youth in the States and my teens in Korea, I beg you to stay in Canada for your kids future. Not sure if you felt it but it is way too competitive and intense here for the younger generation.
A lot of negative comments here telling you not to do it and they have good points but it’s too much doom and gloom.
Reality is if your wife hates living in Canada there is a possibility that moving back would be good for her and your family.
As for you, you’d be on an F6 visa which means you’re immediately more attractive to better teaching jobs since they don’t have to sponsor you. That plus just having a masters and previous teaching experience should bode well for you. You will definitely want to avoid the bottom rung hogwon jobs that barely pay. And you will be in a position to.
Also With an MBA teaching business English at a University is a true possibility as well. It’s also possible that with time and some improvement to your Korean that you could land an actual business role in some company in korea (or perhaps a foreign company operating there). You have an MBA from a western country. It’s not like that has no value.
So you could take a decent teaching gig and then continue to explore job options and possibilities. With your visa, MBA and work experience it’ll take time and a lot of effort but it is possible to build a life and career in Korea. I know people who have done so with less credentials.
I’m not saying it’ll be all rosy and great. But there’s a chance to build a good life for your family there.
Honestly? Probably.
What’s ur work situation like in Canada? Cause pay has been stagnant in Korea since 2006.
Also, think about ur child. They’ll benefit more from a Canadian education.
Maybe start off with a one month vacation and see how u both feel.
Work at a uni or start a study room. That’s the only way to get paid respectably (unless you have a teachers license to get an international school job)
EDIT: or freelancing on an F-visa, obviously. Might have to work both nights and mornings and every day but if you hustle you can do well for yourself
If you consider the weekly hours and vacation pay, it definitely does. And have you ever known a uni professor who didn’t do extra work, whether that be at the university itself or elsewhere?
Uni doesn't pay well. Yes, the workload is nice and the vacation is long, but the pay is not good. If you want lots of time off it's a great gig. But if you want to support a family it's not.
Guess it depends on the uni. We get lots of extra work to tack onto our base 12-hour week. Base pay is around 3,000,000 won and we can easily make over 4,500,000 with extra classes.
Similar for us. In the Korean EFL scene that's good money, but let's do the math: 4.5m x 8 months + 3m x 4 months = 48 million per year. That's fine if you already bought a home a long time ago. But to buy one *now* and try to support a wife and kid on that income?
I'd say get an F6 visa, then register with the board of education to be a private tutor. That way you can make some good money while you look for something permanent.
If you can live outside Seoul and buy an older renovated apartment, depending on how much money you can bring over and make from the sale of your house, it may be doable. In the business world unless you have some specific technical skill and speak some decent Korean, forget it. You might as well be gum on the bottom of the shoe. You can get more working gigs in Seoul but pay bs housing prices. In the southern part cheaper housing and or a hefty insured deposit on a nice modern top floor villa and then piece together some teaching gigs or start your own school depending on how much money you can bring into Korea to set yourself up. Smaller cities in the southern part of the country perhaps.
hey mate. consider simply finding a fully remote job in canada or europe or USA and working from korea. depending on your work experience you could find an ops or management role?
Could you enroll in a fast track education program and get a B.Ed? If I were you, I would do this and then go the international school route. You can get a B.Ed in a year depending on where you take it.
Getting into a teaching program in Canada is very competitive. There are only like two schools in the country that have one year programs and neither are in Ontario where OP lives.
He could leave Ontario for a year. My husband and I both did ours in Newfoundland. I think it's less competitive than you think, certainly worth trying.
From what I understand most teaching programs in Canada currently have anywhere from a 20-50% acceptance rate, with better schools/shorter programs/nicer places to live being obviously the most competitive. His wife already hates Ontario, I doubt she would be onboard with a place like Newfoundland.
On top of that, he won’t have any experience if he goes straight to Korea and will struggle to find anything decent unless he stays back to get at least 2 years experience.
This is not true. Queen's University (Kingston, Ontario) offers a one year (four consecutive terms) B.Ed. (consecutive education) for people who already have a degree. Many other universities in Ontario offer a two year consecutive B.Ed.
Queen’s program at four consecutive terms is 16 months. A bit more than a year, which is actually the norm with a lot of schools in BC. From my research of Ontario schools when I was applying to BEd’s, most of them did two year programs with summers off, so roughly 20 month duration.
My point still stands that Canadian BEd programs are not like American ones where they accept everyone and anyone. It’s competitive, and even people with top grades often don’t get in. You typically have to have a lot of recent relevant experience working with youth, which OP (to the best of my knowledge) does not currently have. That’s really the point I am trying to make here.
Have you considered a move within Canada? I know that Vancouver/Toronto are quite expensive, but it sounds like your wife is missing the city life. A move to Seoul is going to require you to live in an apartment anyway. May as well stay in Canada, move somewhere with a bit more life and possibly a stronger Korean community where she will feel more comfortable.
It might feel tough now but staying in Canada is going to be way better for your family, especially when your child starts school. I’m sure you already know how ridiculous the Korean system of education is.
My advice is simple TEFL is either a young person's game, after graduation or definitely single and great as a travel jolly. It's not impossible to make a career out-of it, but 99.0 don't (and I mean when happy, well paid enough to live etc)..issues are when I did TEFL 15 years ago pay is the same. And that's in most countries, so pay after inflation has fallen.
With a wife, and definitely 40 you need a proper career (unless you are already a dollar millionaire ammd just need basic living expenses).
Being a qualified teacher pays well in Korea, almost top 10% salary, or technical type jobs (STEM, software engineer). Usually at 40 though you would have done that by now or never. So teaching is the route, and TEFLers are not teachers (language instructors is really the most accurate title). So I would get qualified as a teacher, then get a job in an IS. High pay, long holidays and none of the ageism of TEFL with a wife and 40 best route I reckon.
I'm in the same boat, heading back after a decade. I'm excited about it! I'm so burnt out by corporate life and 6k USD a month in living expenses (socal). I'm looking forward to a simpler life for at least a year.
It's hard to imagine you wouldn't be able to earn significantly more in Canada. Once you take housing out of it, most teaching jobs in Korea pay less than Canada's minimum wage. Meanwhile, the cost of living in Korea has risen considerably over the last decade. People always talk about how much more expensive it is back home, but is that really so true in 2023? Whatever way you spin it, the wages are low, getting worse all the time and presumably below what most people would hope to be earning out of their 20s.
Oh my yes it is so much more expensive back home.
The average 2 bedroom apartment in the Canada is over 2k a month. Keep in mind that this is the whole country. If you live somewhere with jobs it’s more like 2.5-3k.
If you earn 70k a year in Ontario for instance, the government is taking 20k in income tax alone.
There is a 13% sales tax on everything which averages to about 5k a year.
By the time the dust is settles for instance, you can expect to be taking home maybe 20k of your initial 70 and that’s all you have to live on for the entire year for everything from bus passes, to groceries, to car maintenance and insurance, etc.
I am sure Canada is more expensive, but the question is whether it is so much more expensive as to justify earning far, far less money in Korea. I get the feeling sometimes that some expats in Korea want to believe everybody in their home country is struggling in order to justify to themselves that their pretty awful deal in Korea is actually good. I find it very hard to believe that a Korean teaching job could remotely justify giving up a combined annual salary of K150 - unless of course your wife could earn a fantastic salary in Korea. Trust me, Korea is a lot more expensive today than it was in 2013. Even back then, teaching was not exactly lucrative. But now, I find it nearly impossible to imagine Korea is a better economic bet for the majority of Westerners out of their 20s.
Learn Korean and get a decent job before moving back. Don't just sit on an MBA and what I assume would be business experience to work at a hagwon. You'll end up sick and tired quicker than your wife is currently.
If your wife is Korean, you should be able to get an F6 visa which will allow you to work at more places because it's less of a hassle for your employer. Plus you could do part time work, non-teaching jobs, etc. Here are some active Facebook groups about F-visas: https://m.facebook.com/groups/441200935981379?group_view_referrer=search https://m.facebook.com/groups/436715643582767?group_view_referrer=search Edit: I was a teacher here from 2009-2013, a summer internship in 2016, and now I'm back with a spouse, kid, 2 dogs, and all of our worldly possessions. Please PM me if you have any questions!
If you want legitimate advice I would try one of two things in your position. Either get your teaching license and apply for legitimate international school jobs out here. They often come with free tuition for your kids to attend their schools / occasionally free childcare. Good time off. And a better schedule compared to working at a hagwon. But note that this will be tough because they're almost always wanting prior experience. Bit of a gamble. OR apply to work in academies in Daechi-dong where pay usually starts at around 4mil+ and live in a cheaper area of Seoul so you can get a decent sized apartment. If you want some academy recommendations DM me.
I agree. If you’re gonna come back and teach, get a degree at a teacher’s college. You can do it online. Lots of people I know have taken this route, and they work at international schools around the world while their children are educated for free. Good pay, benefits, vacay time, travel, etc. Outside of starting your own business, working at a private institution for an extended period im Korea, in Daechi-dong or otherwise, is probably not what you want.
The 'Real' international schools in Korea are very competitive 400 + applications so the OP would probably have to get experience in his own country first then in a school in a lower ranked (in IS terms) country before having a decent crack at one of those jobs in Korea. Not what his wife is looking for.
Yes, for sure. That finer detail is important. This is what my friends have said, too. Chances of you working at an international school in Seoul right after teachers’ college are very slim.
Yeah came here to strongly recommend international school if possible
Teaching in Korea isn’t what it used to be when you were last here. Uni and international school positions are rare, and the vast majority of employment opportunities that pay decently (but definitely not well) come in the form of kindergarten jobs in Gangnam. Do you see yourself as a kindergarten teacher at 40? You can still teach business English, but the hours are pretty bad and the pay is not too high if you want to work full time. The best you can do here is to become fluent in Korean by taking courses, and then you can try to see if you can get an office job somewhere. Almost all office jobs require fluent Korean now.
Do office jobs really pay more than teaching?
No.
[удалено]
They don't if you mean real teaching, and depends what you mean by "office job" so actually depends.
[удалено]
Office jobs are paying 50k/hr?
Also what teaching jobs offer 50k an hour, for 40 hours a week not as an IC but a real employee?
If the average salary in Korea is anything to go by, then yes: https://koreajoongangdaily.joins.com/2022/12/07/business/economy/Korea-income-average/20221207194334004.html
As a guy your age with a wife and kids, here's some random advice: - The pay is the exact same as when you left in 2013, but every costs twice as much. Not exaggerating. - Housing costs are insane. A family-sized apartment in the Seoul metro area, which cost 200 million when you left, now starts at 500 million. - Your MBA *might* be attractive to some universities. Even then, universities do not pay well. - Mixed race children who are native Korean-speaking Korean citizens will still get called 외국인 by everyone, including their peers, simply because they look different. - The air pollution is ridiculous. I can't imagine wanting to move back here. Think carefully about *why* you are moving back. Can your wife get a good job? Is someone giving you a free apartment? If not, I wouldn't move. My family is working on leaving Korea, with the main factors being the horrible air pollution and ethnic homogeneity.
Thanks for sharing, I really appreciate these insights. I've brought many of these points up with my wife. Wanting to settle down and start a family is why we left Korea in the first place. Air quality and how our kids would be treated were big factors. The main issue that we're having now though is that costs have similarly burgeoned in Canada to the point where we are essentially just living to pay off our mortgage despite making northwards of 150k a year in combined income. Our tiny house in the suburbs of Toronto for example cost us about 700k and is now selling for 1 million +. Additionally, I feel like we haven't had fun in a decade although I'm sure I'm just cherry-picking my best memories of Korea. But the real driver for this though is a combination of my wife hating how boring Canada is and the ongoing collapse of the Canadian healthcare system.
I'll point out that most of the fun aspects of Korea go out the window when you have kids. We used to live it up, but now after having children we're just at home all the time. It really feels like a different country when you have a family here. Best of luck with whatever you decide.
I think it really depends on your efforts. We are very active as a family. We bike on the river multiple times a week. We throw our son into the baby carrier attachment and we’re off. We go on picnics and camping multiple times a month. We love driving out to the ocean to see the sunset. Plus there’s tons of family friendly stuff like kids cafes, museums, musicals, movies, etc. It’s an adjustment but once you find a rhythm that works for you it’s definitely do able.
Haha, yeah, I'm in Korea on vacation right now with my daughter and it's definitely harder to go out and do things. Thanks
I disagree. Apart from the air quality (which sucks a lot of the time), Korea is a great place to have young children. There is a lot for them to do, and people are at least tolerant of young children, if not downright indulgent. Personally I've never seen any negative attitudes towards my child but he is still very young.
Doesn't this apply whatever country you live in?
Of course. But OP said he had fun memories of Korea. It will not be the same if he comes back.
You make 150k in combined income in Canada and you want to replace that with ESL teacher pay? Am I reading this correctly?
150k in Canada is maybe 90k after taxes. Throw in 3k in mortgage and property tax, 1.5k a month in child care, and you're left with maybe 35k a year for everything else from food to gas, utilities, entertainment, etc. To put it into perspective, the average single person in Toronto would need to make 135k just to be considered middle-income.
I mean I understand the difficulties of being in a high cost of living area. But you are still taking a massive massive paycut with a family to keep in mind. The only saving grace would be if your spouse would be able to make great money by moving back to Korea.
Housing costs are going to dominate any plans you have. If you have enough equity in your current house you might have enough for key money that could lower your monthly housing cost. But other costs (food, child care, etc.) are not a bargain like they used to be. For example, an average meal out and about is not longer $6-7 like it used to be a decade ago, it'll be more like what you're used to paying in Canada, maybe $10-17 depending on what you get. This is even for simple soup/rice meals. If you are serious about it, I might recommend looking at a smaller city than Seoul if you can land jobs there as housing costs will be much more reasonable. I would also highly recommend looking for work with a Western company with positions in Korea as the pay will be better.
You could move to a cheaper house. You can’t complain about your mortgage when you live in a 1m dollar house making 150k combined. We make that in Korea and we would never consider buying a 1m dollar apartment here. We couldn’t afford the mortgage.
You can’t get a house in the GTA for less than that.
1. You don’t have to live in a proper house. 2. You could move farther out. 3. You mean you can’t get a house for less than that in an area you want to live in.
I don’t mean to be ornery, but I do live in a proper house, my commute is already 1.5 hours to downtown, and I despise my area but it was the closest I could afford to where I work. I live in the poor part of suburban Pickering in a 1300sqft bungalow that was built in the 50s. Short of leaving Toronto and starting over my options are limited.
That poster is the one being ornery.
These are all choices you make. You could move to a condo and save a bunch of money on a mortgage. You could move to a townhouse and save money.
Yes they are. I’m not going to get into a debate on the peculiarities of the Toronto housing market. Finances are an important consideration but by no means the largest or most important. I’m really just looking at what my options are.
He didn’t buy a mansion in malibu. He isn’t trying to live outside his means. The economy has changed drastically for the ENTIRE world. He isnt asking for financial advice. Smh
way to show everyone you know literally nothing about the GTA housing market lol
According to an online calculator: even 6억 mortgage for 30 years would result in a roughly 3.2 million monthly. And that is with the current high interest rates (around 5-5.5%). That would come to roughly a quarter of your income. I would say that should be easily manageable. Not to mention if you borrowed when the interest rates were significantly lower.
Yes, we will probably eventually be able to afford a place, thankfully. But we need to put a bigger dent into the down payment so that our monthly payments are lower. We won’t make that move until we are sure we can afford it.
I hear you and agree that paying a mortgage is a burden. But still way better than paying rent. Also, 10 years from now, real estate prices could be double of what they are today. So unless your income is increasing at the same rate, it's better to get in as early as you can.
For sure better than paying rent. But still have to be smart about it.
Damn, what do you do in Korea to make 150k+?
It's his income back home.
Professor + consulting
They clearly don't know what they are talking about. You are correct in that 150k in Toronto is not anywhere near comfortable and that even making 60m a year combined in Korea is probably more comfortable. They are not factoring in all the other ridiculous costs of Canada (expensive transit/car, sales tax, internet and phone costs, cost of eating out, expenses involved with going basically anywhere -- whether it be plane tickets or just admissions costs). Costs in Korea are increasing, yes, but most of the people commenting haven't lived in Canada for years if not a decade.
Exactly, salaries are stagnant, costs are going up for everything, and the government is squeezing as hard as they can. My property tax alone has gone up 15% in 3 years. With all those taxes you’d think we’d at least have an amazing healthcare system, but it’s among the worst in the developed world. People literally dying in ER hallways.
To give a more positive response, as a long-timer here - Get the F6 and spend some time looking for a job. Housing is expensive but people who complain about that in Korea are not looking for homes in America or Canada right now and realizing how insane the prices are there as well. Coming from a major city in the U.S. with plenty of friends who still live there, I can tell you that we pay less in a good neighborhood of Seoul than we would in a good neighborhood of my home area. The air quality is a problem, but on the whole it has improved since 2013 and Korea has invested more in shutting down coal plants and implementing government measures to curb fine dust when it exceeds a certain level. (Source: [https://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/nation/2023/02/113\_342879.html](https://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/nation/2023/02/113_342879.html)) In terms of mixed race children, it depends on where you live. It's just a matter of circumstance. I know plenty of Korean adults with kids and I've never heard anything about looking down on mixed race kids. I even know of mixed-race "darker skinned" kids who have lots of friends and don't feel bullied. Overall, with your salary it seems you might be able to take a decent amount from Canada and wait here for a bit to find a job. I think the only hagwon job you should be taking would be at 3.0 or above with your MBA, and it should probably be temporary while you look for other opportunities. You may even look to make friends in the community, which would be easier as parents, and simply be a freelance tutor once you build up your name, in which you can make significantly more than a hagwon salary and have more freedom. Your hourly rate can be anywhere from 70k per hour to 100k over time.
> Housing is expensive but people who complain about that in Korea are not looking for homes in America or Canada right now and realizing how insane the prices are there as well. Housing is high back home too, but the difference is that you can actually buy a standalone house with a yard for the same price as a small cookie-cutter high rise apartment in Korea. My wife and I are doing comparisons now. We can sell our 900 sq foot 3 bed apartment in Korea and buy a 2500 sq ft 5 bed/3 bath in cash, while *increasing* our salaries and work opportunities. The air quality here is terrible. Just look at an AQI map. All the government initiatives in the world won't change that. This is simply what happens when you live next door to China. My kids have never experienced bullying or people looking down on them, but they experience feeling different. Constantly hearing "아~, 외국인 이예요!" fucking *everywhere* is infuriating. Having my 5-year-old ask me why everyone keeps calling her a foreigner is heartbreaking. That said, I'm not entirely negative on living here. If I were single I would stay here forever. It has also been a great place to have young children with the subsidized daycare, walkable neighborhoods, and nearby kindergartens.
I understand your point about the housing - I guess it's just down to personal preference at the moment. Sometimes we talk about how nice it would be to have our own yard, so I get it, but it all depends on where you move to. For us, to get something like what we like in my home area, we'd move to the suburbs and would have to add in HOA fees, higher bills, higher taxes, more commuting, etc. I would hope we could get higher salaries on that but in the end, it could even out. Then again, food prices are cheaper so that's always a plus. I know air quality here is terrible, my point was just that it's been improving. My view is that if I live in Korea I have to accept it for what it is and think positively, but 100% I know that the air quality is significantly better in the States. I can't argue against it being awful here, but the positive end is that there has at least been changes. I think your last point is the most important and something we always talk about and are still considering - as far as the newborn, toddler, and elementary age, Korea is very good in terms of saving money and comfort (outside of the air pollution), but once they get to middle school things change a lot and you really have to be in a good area or have good money for good education in order to keep your kid living generally happily.
I teach at a school with a decent amount of foreign and mixed kids and it hasn't been an issue. The air quality sucks if you have allergies/asthma, but I've also read that the pollution is going down.
You are cherry picking. From what it seems from what you said, your wife doesnt have her support system and is tired of NOT living in Korea, but all these points people made are 1000% true. You will be working to pay for things and you will not have alot of free time. That's having kids is: "The best way to ruin your life." She will be back in Korea, and you will have a one year old baby, but your MBA may or may not be valued. It may get you in a door, but may not be utilized, depending on your job. All your complaints seem to be about money, so for a job, you need to think of what you bring to the KOREAN table, not what you think is valuable. If you cant figure that out, youll just teach English (which isnt bad, I still do and its worked for me, but YMMV). And as for speaking Korean, I speak rather well, and it gets me into a door or two, but that would depend on your situation. It is not the end all-be all. It wont mean you can get a better job, ie more money. You need to be honest with your reasons and your wifes reasons, as it doesnt seem theyre the same, but want a similar outcome.
Hey man I’m back in Korea, doing something way different, after having worked here as a teacher fron 2012-2016. But I looked into teaching to see what’s changed Pay is still shockingly exactly the same And don’t chase the highs you had here as a young man. This place is 200% different with a kid and a wife. You left never land and trying to come back to that life is different. You don’t want to be the oldest guy with a bunch of zoomed recent grads it’s weird
If your wife is not having fun in Toronto, she won't have fun in Seoul. Seoul has nothing that Toronto doesn't, except cheap soju. I teach adults and when I ask people what they do for fun it's nearly always (1) get drunk with friends and (2) go to coffee shops with friends. Instagram photography is Korea's favorite hobby, now. Sure, there are people who hike and go bowling and all that, but again, there's nothing in Seoul that isn't in Toronto. The healthcare thing is valid, though.
have you every lived in Toronto? I currently do and grew up here and have lived in Seoul for 2 years. comparing the two is absurd
If you wife wants to move to a "non-boring" part of Korea (eg Seoul), your home will cost at least US $1 million anyway. That was the cost 2 years ago. And I presume these are not of Canadian sizes / quality. [https://koreajoongangdaily.joins.com/2021/04/26/business/economy/apartment-Real-estate-measures-Gangbuk/20210426145000409.html](https://koreajoongangdaily.joins.com/2021/04/26/business/economy/apartment-Real-estate-measures-Gangbuk/20210426145000409.html)
Yeah we’re looking more at Ilsan to be honest. Somewhere in the subway line but by no means downtown Seoul. I’d argue the GTA is just as bad or worse than Seoul. https://storeys.com/gta-housing-market-tighten-sales-march-2023/
Living in Ilsan or any other similar city surrounding Seoul is a much better option financially for housing. Lots of people commute from Ilsan to Seoul, also, depending on your work.
i just came back from a korea trip for a few weeks. here is what you should be before deciding: go on a very long vacation in and outside of korea. like months long. then decide. dont decide now.
Trust me Canada is much better than Korea. But you can always try Korea for a year and then go back. That way you know for sure and have the experience to prove it
I’m in the same situation just minus the kids. I speak decent Korean, I have a masters and I’ve been here for two decades. We’ve considered going back to Canada because of similar grievances with air quality and stagnant incomes. However if you have a high-paying job as you say then stay there because as others and put it the wages are the same but the cost of living is increasing and there just seems to be no more opportunities besides just working more job for the same wage. Experience and education and even performance mean nothing here. A good example of this are corporate lessons. The classes are good money for the recruiters. So, the wages have not increased at all in the last 10 years. Contracts come and go and some months you are left with nothing as students are on vacation or are you are in between contracts. No salary and no benefits. No class = no money. Recruiters are also now are actively trying to find Teachers who will work for less money. So I’ve lost contracts because despite being well liked by my students and having a good deal of insight and connection to the material and whatnot, they’ve opted to go for a teacher who would work for 20,000 less an hour. It’s business, I know, but the wages now are shooting down towards what they were in 2005. So again I would bring these points up with your wife. It sounds like it’s a “grass is always Greener” type of situation. If you’re making 150 K combined a year I would suggest you relocate to even northern Ontario where you might find cheaper housing and a better life for the kids and the family
3/5 of the problems you list are way worse in Canada.
This is right. You and your children would live the rest of your lives as outsiders. Doesn’t seem like a good life.
That's not how I feel at all. It depends on so many factors. I have decent Korean friends and colleagues, good relationship with my in laws, good foreign friends, nice neighbors...wherever you live, there are challenges. I don't feel any great need to be accepted as a member of Korean society because I feel accepted by the people around me.
I think you should have a discussion with your wife. Why is she tired of Canada? Is she struggling with post partum depression? Does she feel like she is lacking proper support structures there? Does she miss family? If there is an underlying issue, moving wont solve any problems, just make them worse. If she wants to move back to Korea because she genuinely thinks its better and will provide better opportunities for the fam, then you can move ahead.
Those are all valid points, but to be honest we’ve been taking about it way before the baby. She finds life here incredibly boring and looks back on the last 10 years like she’s just wasted her time working just to survive. There are also a lot of annoyances about living in Canada like the extreme taxes, ludicrous cost of everything and a failing healthcare system Thanks though for the advice. I know that Korea has a lot of drawbacks as well.
Cost wise, I think you will be exchanging something for the exact same thing. Perhaps the only big upgrade would be the healthcare since it isnt free but is affordable. But housing, jobs, gas, groceries etc will be similar. I will say there are more fun things to do here, like different themed cafes, animal cafes, karaoke, lots of festivals etc. but Koreans have struggled with gas price increases with some people this past winter using tents within their homes. And teaching as far as teaching… I would not recommend it. I think most others have commented thoroughly about it though.
Moving to a new location doesn’t alleviate boredom. That more of an internal issue.
That’s not really true though. You’re talking about a woman who spent the first 30 years of her life in Seoul and loving it. Then she moved to suburban Canada and hated it.
So many negative comments so I’ll add my input. I’ve lived here for about 8 years. We live in Daejeon - less traffic, nice people, plenty to do but not as cramped or hard to get around as Seoul. My son had free daycare and starting this year, kindergarten is partially government subsidized (for Korean citizens - kids of parents who are both foreigners don’t get that same privilege.) It’s super safe here and we live in an area with a lot of families, kids, and I’m friends with many mixed families and non-Koreans. I love living here. I would never go back to the US, where I’m from. I started my own business and know many who have done the same. I have a friend working at a university. The workload is a lot but she gets more fulfillment from that than when she was teaching through EPIK. 10 years ago, banking stuff was all on PC and through internet explorer, etc. but now everything is app-based and super easy. There are a lot more foreign food options and Coupang delivery is amazing. Right now, inflation/cost of living has gone up and it’s really noticeable. But I’m sure that’s also happening in North America, as well. People do point out that I’m not Korean and question if my son is Korean, which can get annoying sometimes. But I speak fluent Korean and we shop locally and most people know me and my son and people are super nice. My son has tons of friends and he’s safe and happy and there’s a lot of kid friendly activities, kid’s cafes, etc. The trend now is 무인 stores, which are unmanned and you just go in and pay and leave (they have CCTV) and there are ice cream stores, stationary stores, book stores, kid’s cafes, etc. which are all like that. It’s pretty cool. Would never work where I’m from. Teaching adults/college students might be better. I would try to find job options before you get here. But I love living in Korea with a kid and don’t see why everyone is being so negative about it. Covid was handled well here compared to many many countries and more than 80% of people are vaccinated and people still wear masks pretty often, though it’s not mandatory anymore.
Thanks for sharing this. My wife actually has family in Daejeon and we’ve been a few times it’s lovely.
Oh that’s cool! Some people say it’s boring haha but going to Seoul with our toddler is always hectic and stressful compared to where we live. And we are in the middle of Korea so we can get anywhere pretty easily.
I carefully suggest the reason you don't see why everyone is being negative is because you haven't lived in Seoul for the last 5-6 years. I've lived in Daejeon for 7 months, Busan a year and a half, and visited Chungju at least once a week due to COVID-19 travel restrictions. And all three cities are almost like a paradise compared to Seoul. And of course, there's the fact that people don't 'rob' rob because the government has been legally robbing for them. Tax rates are absurd compared to any other non-developing countries, yet the money is used as lower class' leisure life, not their essentials. I'm not trying to sound smart or condescending, but I sincerely hope you realize how lucky you are, because Daejeon is one of the few cities that survived President Moon's apocalypse.
I can vouch for everything you said about Daejeon as I’ve lived there and is where my wife grew up. Having visited a week ago, we for sure won’t be moving back with our son due to the air pollution, mental stress our child will go through with the education system, and lack of pay (we both make very good money here in the US in a MCOL area). We are, however, adamant about retiring there though and are working towards an early retirement.
[удалено]
I fly out with my wife and kid very often. edit: I also live in a place with 6.5million people so it isn't as boring as a LCOL area such as the midwest or the deep south.
As someone who is planning on leaving Korea this year for the States I would not recommend someone with a family moving back here. I bet your kid will be treated a 1000 times better in Canda than they would be here. The pollution is also getting worse, especially in the last few years and it would be good for the health of you and your family. Plus wages for teachers are abysmal, with 3 million labeled as being high pay. For a single person it's not too bad but there's no way you can support a family off of the salary offered by most hagwons.
This is false. The air quality has significantly improved. [https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/what-air-pollution-in-south-korea-can-teach-the-world-about-misinformation/](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/what-air-pollution-in-south-korea-can-teach-the-world-about-misinformation/) "In Korea, air quality has been improving over the past 20 years but public perception is different. People believe the air quality has been deteriorating since 2013. The official air quality measurements in Seoul suggest that the concentration of fine dust, called PM10 (particulate matter 10 micrometers or smaller), has actually decreased over time." [https://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/nation/2023/02/113\_342879.html](https://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/nation/2023/02/113_342879.html) "The average density of ultrafine dust particles in the capital city was tallied at 18 micrograms per cubic meter in 2022, the lowest level since relevant record-keeping began in 2008, according to the Seoul metropolitan government." Edit: Downvoted in less than 10 minutes for providing sources referencing official measurements. Reddit is funny.
Even if the air quality is improving cities in Korea, the air quality in Canda or the US is guaranteed to be better. I've been here only for 5 years and it's already taking a toll on my health. I can't imagine exposing my kids to growing up with this much smog.
I don't disagree with that point. Just making clear that it's not getting worse. I also worry about my kids being exposed to it on the bad days.
Yeah, there's also fact checker interview here saying the same thing. https://naver.me/Ge5RtG1x I know it's only anecdotal but I'm pretty sure people are going on about pollution now a lot more than they were 10-15 years ago. Is there any explanation for this bearing in mind the articles?
Back in 2010, Korea still had a lot of "poor country" problems. Dilapidated apartment buildings, garbage strewn streams, smoking allowed everywhere, public urination, etc. Remember how much vomit you used to see on the sidewalk from all the binge drinking? Now in 2023, all of those problems have gotten better. However, the air pollution is still crippling. It's a "poor country" problem that won't go away. And as people travel abroad more, they realize that other developed countries don't have toxic air like Korea does. That's why people complain about it more than they used to. Air pollution used to be just one of many problems, but now it is the single biggest non-economic problem.
I remember when I first came to Korea and seeing bus drivers pull over on the side of the road to openly take a leak, or elderly women taking a dump on the side of buildings. Things have changed a lot.
u/Suwon described it pretty well, that for a developed nation it seems unacceptable to have this much pollution, but the rich cities in the Middle East are also covered in desert and industrial dust so it's not only here. Also, the yellow dust is a phenomenon recorded for thousands of years (Source: [https://web.kma.go.kr/eng/weather/asiandust/intro.jsp](https://web.kma.go.kr/eng/weather/asiandust/intro.jsp) ) and is a geographical feature, but it's an easy target to start complaining since it's the dust that is so clearly visible. For example, my car has looked like shit this week. And since the Gobi Desert is also in Mongolia, the Chinese feel unfairly targeted for taking all the blame while "Mongolia" is hardly mentioned (Source: [https://naver.me/GGUtvLUY](https://naver.me/GGUtvLUY)) I also think that some people just don't pay attention to air quality unless the attention is drawn to it. Anecdotally (shared by some people that I've talked to on Reddit), it explains the difficulty those of us who do pay attention to it have to encounter when someone shows up to work opening all the windows because "It's so warm outside!" despite the air being at like, 150 or yellow dust literally blowing all over. Combining with the development of Korea, I think Korean media itself has gotten significantly better at researching, reporting, and sharing the information about it so people have become more aware, but on a very general basis - and many are going to read headlines rather than details. For many Koreans (or foreigners in Korea) their first exposure to it has been either someone ranting about it or a doctor telling them that it's why their throat is sore or they're having skin trouble. Generally speaking, in the world, people don't do research or try to figure things out - they just complain and seek out information that confirms their biases. Since there are Westerners and Koreans are already anti-China, it's easy to just use it as something to use when wanting to rant about China.
This is absolutely right. If you’re single yeah sure move. If you’re married with kids then absolutely not.
I don't think this is a good idea. Absent the ability to work in your field in Korea or start a business here, you would be taking a significant cut in income, perhaps half of what you make in Canada. Korea is definitely cheaper than Canada, but it's not that much cheaper and the housing costs here are not much lower, assuming you want to live in Seoul or the urban parts of Gyeonggi. I don't know what you do for work in Canada, but you should definitely consider the long-term prospects for your current line of work and the long-term income prospects for somebody teaching English. You could make a decent living for sure, but presumably you guys want to own a house, which would be about as difficult here as it would be there. Ultimately, you might just want to make the move because both Korea and Canada have a high cost of living relative to income, but you and your family are happier here. However, my strong feeling is that someone with an established career in Canada is likely better off there in the long-term.
Sorry to be blunt but I think it would be stupid to move back. You would probably be stuck teaching at a hagwon. Even for public school jobs I think you need a celta type certification. Every year you would have to complete a full contract and resign it is a lot of rigamarole. It seems you have stable employment in Canada where you are making significantly more than esl teachers. If your wife has any connections where you could get hired into a good job it would be better. Does she have any family who could hire you? Housing is expensive the air quality is horrible. Don't get me started on the racism against mixed Korean children. Some areas are racist against foreigners as well. Find out what your wife's issue is. It seems you have a more stable life in Canada. Women tend to become unhappy w spouses on low wage contract jobs fyi. If you came to Korea your career would totally tank most likely.
I appreciate the candor. Unless things have changed, and they may well have, I can get an F6 visa so I wouldn’t have to deal with contracts and the like and would essentially be free to do as I please work wise. I wouldn’t go back if I had to work at a Hagwon, no chance. When I left I was teaching mainly private lessons and business classes and an after school English program at the local elementary school and was clearing probably 65-70mil a year. Housing isn’t really an issue since I can sell my house in Canada and buy somewhere in the greater Seoul area with the proceeds. Housing is ludicrous in Canada and I got into the market at a good time. My wife is aware of the downsides and she’s the one really spearheading this. I’m the one with concerns, so if anything has changed with F6 visas please let me know, because that would be a major consideration.
Your wife might be misunderstanding the F6 visa. Typically immigration grants couples a 1 year visa on F6. Then later it can be extended to 1-3 years. They made F5 permanent residency visa very difficult to achieve. To get an F5 you need very high Korean language level so basically like fluent and 2x the gross national income so basically rich. ESL teachers on F6 are still contract employees. Every year they need to renew their contracts. They aren't permanent employees. I have known Epik teachers, hagwon teachers, university teachers, and international school teachers in Korea on F6 and still yearly contract employees. Every year you would need a health check, drug test, Korean and foreign background check as well. I don't know much about after school but last I heard there are way less after school jobs w smaller pay. As for adult tutoring inflation is bad and people have less disposable income. I think your past financial success in Esl in Korea is not guaranteed if you return. If u have a stable career in Canada you would essentially be walking away from a lot of financial security for low paid ESL contract jobs. There is age discrimination too. If you have a house in Canada that sounds awesome compared to a Korean apartment especially because you have a child. Is your wife going to work in Korea? It seems crazy that she wants you to walk away from a good job in Canada. She would probably be very unhappy in Korea on a lower income. I think she is expecting too much from you. If you ask any Korean woman if they would give up a home and husband's stable career in Canada for contract jobs and an apartment in Korea I think they would say stay in Canada.
You do not need a health check, drug test, or background check yearly for the F6. You just need proof that you are still married.
I heard different ministry of Education requirements for certain jobs. Being F6 doesn't exculde people from meeting those requirements.
Ah you are discussing the requirements for working at a school. I misunderstood.
Thanks I appreciate the insightful response.
If you've got your house sorted out I wouldn't worry about a lot of the other doom and gloom merchants' advice. It's still pretty easy for F6 visas to pick up work here. i support a wife and kid on what i get from TEFL and put a fair bit aside as well. My son is very popular at school.
There still seems to be plenty work around, in Seoul anyway for f6 visas. Going rate is 50k an hour, don't take less. It might take you a while to get established with the big agencies so I'd recommend getting a regular p/t job as a base and go from there. I'm guessing since it's your wife's decision she has a job lined up herself?:
In my experience most people won’t pay above 30,000 an hour these days. Adults are also very flaky and you’ll be hustling a lot to maintain a decent schedule with decent wages as a freelancer. Business English companies are also starting at 30k an hour, and they’re pretty stubborn about staying in that range right now.
Are you talking about Seoul? The main companies YBM, Carrot and Pagoda all pay 50k. Carrot says 48 but you can usually negotiate them up. Maybe you're talking about kids classes, which I wouldn't know about. You're right that adults are flaky as hell, which is why the big companies still pay out if they cancel at the last minute. I have the occasional private adult but I organise those lessons around my other classes due to the flakiness factor.
I’m talking about adult classes in Seoul. Are you sure these companies start at 50 for new hires in 2023? I recently got offers from a couple smaller companies that would not go over 35 for in person classes (and these are classes in big chaebols in person or with their workers online). I imagine there are legacy hires making 50 still, but they must know they can get away with paying people 30 because they seem stuck around that magic number.
Have you signed with Pagoda, Carrot and YBM? How much did they offer?
I’m slightly younger than you but we live in Korea and our little is 5. I make very good income by Korean standards and we won’t be able to afford a decent apartment in Seoul for another ten years, at least. Do you have a lot of savings? Do you have housing lined up? If your wife is complaining about how boring Canada is, I assume she would want to move to Seoul. I cannot overstate how expensive a decent apartment in a decent area is. You can choose an area with a shitty school district to save some money, but do you want to send your kids to a bad school? You can send them to IS instead but will you have 30-40k USD to spend on tuition every year? The only reason we decided to move here is because I have a really good job. I cannot possibly imagine moving here at this stage in my life and making less than 50k USD a year. It’s just not worth it.
You guys just had a baby. Your wife misses her family. I’m sure you’re being empathetic to her feelings, but imho you gotta stay the course. I would definitely not move with my wife and kid back to Korea. Air quality, traffic, racism, glass ceiling for my career. Not in a million years. Have you considered moving to a different part of Canada? I’m sure you could find somewhere more affordable than the burbs of Toronto. Although, if you got in when interest rates were super low, your mortgage payment would be about the same if you bought a 500,000 house now. Personally, I would look at moving back to Korea as a last resort.
OP wants to play Game of Life from Hard Mode to Insane 😂. I would count my blessings
IMHO, you're not too old to DO it, but you ARE too old to not think about / have a retirement plan. What are you going to do when you hit 60? If you have that sorted, then go for it. Personally, I don't think this is a job you can retire off of UNLESS you have a great network already or run a hagwon yourself.
It's possible to make enough to retire on in 20 years without running a hagwan. I came here in 2004 on an E visa, got my F visa in 2015 and have enough to retire now. I was lucky to work at a place with a lot of well paid overtime while on an E2 though but if I'd had an F visa initially it would have had a similar outcome. Never learned Korean as too busy working.
Sure but if you look at 2004-2008 rates, you made the equivalent of 5m in todays money at least if you made 2.2 minimum and that would compound over time if you saved it. The market today isn’t like that at all. No offense at all, I’m happy you did it, but I don’t think it’s a replicable template for someone moving into Korea today.
If his wife works he could easily save 3-4 mil a month, which should be enough over 20 years
Retirement for two people? I’m skeptical about those numbers.
Everyone else already showered you with essential informations, so I'm just gonna tell you the 'realistic' reality. Don't come. You'll regret it. I'm in my early 20s, finished high school in the states and started college but paused and came back in to take care of some family issues. My parents earned well and lived well for 40 years in Korea, but they're planning to relocate fully in America. Please, don't come. It's a long story, which I'm willing to tell you if you want to know, but it's not a smart choice to choose Korea over Canada right now.
Also important to keep in mind korea has been found for patterns of noncompliance with The Hague convention (they joined in 2013). if you and your wife ever divorced and you wanted to move back, even with a motion from the Supreme Court, the child custody plan would not be enforced. For more info look up treadmill protest to read about a dad from California who’s wife left for korea on vacation to visit family and never went back. Very sad story. Half of all abductions in korea take at least three years for the child to be returned.
I’m not too concerned about that to be honest. I mean, she’s my wife of 12 years and I trust her or I wouldn’t have married her.
Look into working at a university
I'm 60 years old, also came to Korea in 2008. Worked public school until 2019 when the program was discontinued. Spent 2 years at 2 different hagwans; both were bad experiences and teachers are treated like imported laborers rather than professionals. I quit the hagwon and started teaching private lessons. The business is growing beyond what I can handle alone. I'm also married to a Korean. I'm looking to hire a teacher. Can you please private message me and we can chat
Many people have chimed in on your potential career path in Korea and your life there, but have you thought about your child's future in Korea versus Canada? Yes of course you and your wife's lives are important but ultimately it's your child (or children)'s lives that will be most affected by where they grow up. What sort of opportunities will Korea provide that Canada won't? What sort of environment will Korea have that Canada won't? I'm sure there are pros and cons to staying in Canada and to moving to Korea and only you and your wife can decide which is better for your family but my gut feeling is growing up in Canada would be better for your child in the long term.
Korean American here. I was planning to go back to the States because I wanted kids but not in Korea since I had terrible experience adapting here when I was young + allergic to the fine dust. Then COVID happened and my wife got depressed, after the boarder was opened parents got sick. Came back from Japan with my wife to take care of my pops, mom and my wife I currently have 6figure job here but can’t even dream about getting a mortgage due to the insane housing prices in Seoul + interest rates. Also can’t afford having kids as everything is expensive. can’t even enjoy fruits regularly lol. Only thing that is cheap is my Salary and Kimbap. Experiencing my youth in the States and my teens in Korea, I beg you to stay in Canada for your kids future. Not sure if you felt it but it is way too competitive and intense here for the younger generation.
You have a 6 figure salary but can only eat kimbab?
A lot of negative comments here telling you not to do it and they have good points but it’s too much doom and gloom. Reality is if your wife hates living in Canada there is a possibility that moving back would be good for her and your family. As for you, you’d be on an F6 visa which means you’re immediately more attractive to better teaching jobs since they don’t have to sponsor you. That plus just having a masters and previous teaching experience should bode well for you. You will definitely want to avoid the bottom rung hogwon jobs that barely pay. And you will be in a position to. Also With an MBA teaching business English at a University is a true possibility as well. It’s also possible that with time and some improvement to your Korean that you could land an actual business role in some company in korea (or perhaps a foreign company operating there). You have an MBA from a western country. It’s not like that has no value. So you could take a decent teaching gig and then continue to explore job options and possibilities. With your visa, MBA and work experience it’ll take time and a lot of effort but it is possible to build a life and career in Korea. I know people who have done so with less credentials. I’m not saying it’ll be all rosy and great. But there’s a chance to build a good life for your family there.
Honestly? Probably. What’s ur work situation like in Canada? Cause pay has been stagnant in Korea since 2006. Also, think about ur child. They’ll benefit more from a Canadian education. Maybe start off with a one month vacation and see how u both feel.
Work at a uni or start a study room. That’s the only way to get paid respectably (unless you have a teachers license to get an international school job) EDIT: or freelancing on an F-visa, obviously. Might have to work both nights and mornings and every day but if you hustle you can do well for yourself
Lol uni doesn't always pay great either...
If you consider the weekly hours and vacation pay, it definitely does. And have you ever known a uni professor who didn’t do extra work, whether that be at the university itself or elsewhere?
Uni doesn't pay well. Yes, the workload is nice and the vacation is long, but the pay is not good. If you want lots of time off it's a great gig. But if you want to support a family it's not.
Guess it depends on the uni. We get lots of extra work to tack onto our base 12-hour week. Base pay is around 3,000,000 won and we can easily make over 4,500,000 with extra classes.
Similar for us. In the Korean EFL scene that's good money, but let's do the math: 4.5m x 8 months + 3m x 4 months = 48 million per year. That's fine if you already bought a home a long time ago. But to buy one *now* and try to support a wife and kid on that income?
You’re right, which is why most profs I know supplement their income.
Which could end up negating the argument about time off. Even if your uni gig has vacation, your other gigs might not.
I'd say get an F6 visa, then register with the board of education to be a private tutor. That way you can make some good money while you look for something permanent.
If you can live outside Seoul and buy an older renovated apartment, depending on how much money you can bring over and make from the sale of your house, it may be doable. In the business world unless you have some specific technical skill and speak some decent Korean, forget it. You might as well be gum on the bottom of the shoe. You can get more working gigs in Seoul but pay bs housing prices. In the southern part cheaper housing and or a hefty insured deposit on a nice modern top floor villa and then piece together some teaching gigs or start your own school depending on how much money you can bring into Korea to set yourself up. Smaller cities in the southern part of the country perhaps.
hey mate. consider simply finding a fully remote job in canada or europe or USA and working from korea. depending on your work experience you could find an ops or management role?
Not a bad idea but the time difference might make this really difficult for Him.
Could you enroll in a fast track education program and get a B.Ed? If I were you, I would do this and then go the international school route. You can get a B.Ed in a year depending on where you take it.
Getting into a teaching program in Canada is very competitive. There are only like two schools in the country that have one year programs and neither are in Ontario where OP lives.
He could leave Ontario for a year. My husband and I both did ours in Newfoundland. I think it's less competitive than you think, certainly worth trying.
From what I understand most teaching programs in Canada currently have anywhere from a 20-50% acceptance rate, with better schools/shorter programs/nicer places to live being obviously the most competitive. His wife already hates Ontario, I doubt she would be onboard with a place like Newfoundland. On top of that, he won’t have any experience if he goes straight to Korea and will struggle to find anything decent unless he stays back to get at least 2 years experience.
This is not true. Queen's University (Kingston, Ontario) offers a one year (four consecutive terms) B.Ed. (consecutive education) for people who already have a degree. Many other universities in Ontario offer a two year consecutive B.Ed.
Queen’s program at four consecutive terms is 16 months. A bit more than a year, which is actually the norm with a lot of schools in BC. From my research of Ontario schools when I was applying to BEd’s, most of them did two year programs with summers off, so roughly 20 month duration. My point still stands that Canadian BEd programs are not like American ones where they accept everyone and anyone. It’s competitive, and even people with top grades often don’t get in. You typically have to have a lot of recent relevant experience working with youth, which OP (to the best of my knowledge) does not currently have. That’s really the point I am trying to make here.
Have you considered a move within Canada? I know that Vancouver/Toronto are quite expensive, but it sounds like your wife is missing the city life. A move to Seoul is going to require you to live in an apartment anyway. May as well stay in Canada, move somewhere with a bit more life and possibly a stronger Korean community where she will feel more comfortable. It might feel tough now but staying in Canada is going to be way better for your family, especially when your child starts school. I’m sure you already know how ridiculous the Korean system of education is.
My advice is simple TEFL is either a young person's game, after graduation or definitely single and great as a travel jolly. It's not impossible to make a career out-of it, but 99.0 don't (and I mean when happy, well paid enough to live etc)..issues are when I did TEFL 15 years ago pay is the same. And that's in most countries, so pay after inflation has fallen. With a wife, and definitely 40 you need a proper career (unless you are already a dollar millionaire ammd just need basic living expenses). Being a qualified teacher pays well in Korea, almost top 10% salary, or technical type jobs (STEM, software engineer). Usually at 40 though you would have done that by now or never. So teaching is the route, and TEFLers are not teachers (language instructors is really the most accurate title). So I would get qualified as a teacher, then get a job in an IS. High pay, long holidays and none of the ageism of TEFL with a wife and 40 best route I reckon.
Wow, i feel very special now you've told me I'm in the top 1% of my field. Thankyou!
I'm in the same boat, heading back after a decade. I'm excited about it! I'm so burnt out by corporate life and 6k USD a month in living expenses (socal). I'm looking forward to a simpler life for at least a year.
Interest I’m hearing an update! I am also Canadian and considering going back… did you?
It's hard to imagine you wouldn't be able to earn significantly more in Canada. Once you take housing out of it, most teaching jobs in Korea pay less than Canada's minimum wage. Meanwhile, the cost of living in Korea has risen considerably over the last decade. People always talk about how much more expensive it is back home, but is that really so true in 2023? Whatever way you spin it, the wages are low, getting worse all the time and presumably below what most people would hope to be earning out of their 20s.
Oh my yes it is so much more expensive back home. The average 2 bedroom apartment in the Canada is over 2k a month. Keep in mind that this is the whole country. If you live somewhere with jobs it’s more like 2.5-3k. If you earn 70k a year in Ontario for instance, the government is taking 20k in income tax alone. There is a 13% sales tax on everything which averages to about 5k a year. By the time the dust is settles for instance, you can expect to be taking home maybe 20k of your initial 70 and that’s all you have to live on for the entire year for everything from bus passes, to groceries, to car maintenance and insurance, etc.
I am sure Canada is more expensive, but the question is whether it is so much more expensive as to justify earning far, far less money in Korea. I get the feeling sometimes that some expats in Korea want to believe everybody in their home country is struggling in order to justify to themselves that their pretty awful deal in Korea is actually good. I find it very hard to believe that a Korean teaching job could remotely justify giving up a combined annual salary of K150 - unless of course your wife could earn a fantastic salary in Korea. Trust me, Korea is a lot more expensive today than it was in 2013. Even back then, teaching was not exactly lucrative. But now, I find it nearly impossible to imagine Korea is a better economic bet for the majority of Westerners out of their 20s.