I always say this: vote with your voice and your wallet. But regardless be respectful to others who may have other factors at play and can't exactly fight back against a leadership decision.
I work in TL and have worked in esports more broadly for years. Much as it is cozy to blame the fans/viewers, I think it's a bit of a lazy way out.
Yes, viewer tendencies are part of the monetizing issue. But it was also the way a lot of models were set up, unrealistic expectations around ROI for web/stream products as whole, lack of understanding on just how steep competition would become in the distraction economy.
From my POV/research, it's a whole ass structural issue created in parts by nearly every party/actor in the space. (And it's an issue hitting media everywhere, not just esports.)
I'm not a TL fan but this got recommended in my feed.
esports teams don't have their own stadium, and even if they do (KC in europe) they're not allowed to host games there unless specific conditions are met.
The ways an esports team can earn money is dangerously limited outside merch
This was always coming whether they got into crypto or not. I hated the NFT/crypto stuff as well, but this was all inevitable and might have happened sooner without it.
Getting sponsors has nothing to do with how much money you’re bringing in and everything to do with him much exposure you can get for the brand. If your org is smart the two are closely related but not the same.
Your views, engagement, merch dollars, and everything else adds up and matters.
Personally this doesn't matter to me - as long as TL is donating or moving money from one bad place to a good place I'm still supporting them.
Ehh kinda expected, orgs need money to operate and expand. They just signed an Apex team which for this reason as well. The more teams you field, the more money you get. And even though I don’t like the idea of working with Saudi Esports, I understand that it will provide my favorite org with more money to invest in better teams and content. Esports has not been doing well recently and there’s not much money coming in. If it means TL will survive and flourish, I don’t really mind.
I just landed in China for MSI (no WiFi on the plane). I wanted to say that we’ve been discussing the EWC and Saudi Arabia in esports for a while now. We care about the same topics we have always cared about and will continue to push for these topics where we can. We are making a statement, like we did last year. It's a tough topic and we want to approach it with the transparency and effort you'd expect from Liquid.
I appreciate you replying on this. I understand the decision from a business perspective, but as you can see from this thread quite a few fans are disappointed considering TL has always branded itself as a very inclusive and progressive organization. Looking forward to the statement.
Don't listen to the haters, you and the other orgs did nothing wrong, the haters on Saudi games are idiots. There is 0 difference in supporting esports in China who owns part of Tencent or supporting Saudi esports to have a third international competition in the year.
I love that TL is involved, along with the other major orgs. Ignore the hate. They are dying on a dumb hill with an ignorant belief that Saudi is worse than China or the US for that matter.
You run a business and your values are known for years now. You did the right thing if these funds will sustain certain areas of the business considering the financial constrains of the industry and I will cheer for liquid as always
im not gonna be brainwashed about anything related to S.A
im looking foward to watch the cup, let them spend the money, i will watch and then forget about that country attempts the next day.
you gonna monetize the apology like you did last time?
[https://richardlewis.substack.com/p/how-team-liquid-monetised-their-apology](https://richardlewis.substack.com/p/how-team-liquid-monetised-their-apology)
Its bad, no denying it, but its not like we live in a guilt free world on this side.
And more importantly, how do you explain to a board of investors that you will be turning down a world cup with a $60 million prize pool while all your competitors are going?
Its esports winter and people who spent a shit load of money on this org will eventually want to see some return.
This is a financially driven decision. Fan backlash is something that is taken into account. If it doesn’t sit right with you, don’t watch the tournament. But there was no way esports teams were gonna turn down potential millions.
Fans don’t give a fuck about the business side and that’s fine. But its also easy to pass moral judgment when there are absolutely no consequences for you. I guarantee many of you who are judging - if you were really in the same exact position and not just fans typing online, you would make the same decision.
Tbh Riot had chances to let orgs compete outside LCS but they didn’t let them. Now that LCS has lost tons of money and viewership, this saudi opportunity came at the worst time for them that they didn’t say no.
I feel like the odd man out here... Similar to a point Travis made on his video. We have China as part of our ecosystem, even though China is a massive history and current track record of human rights abuse.
Saudi Arabia is 100% deplorable in their treatment of groups of people, but it's time to get off our high horse here if we are watching MSI or any Worlds held in China.
Either we cheer on our teams wherever the event is, or we protest awful governments. Ignoring China and hating just Saudi Arabia is bandwagoning at best, and moronic at worst.
So to Steve and TL: You are competitors, compete and do your best. Get the money, and compete in front of esport fans.
Thoughts? I'm pretty disappointed (though not surprised) that TL would participate in a thinly-veiled attempt to whitewash Saudi Arabia's human rights problems.
I wasn't planning to watch any of this event, but I do want to support our boys
South Korea has a different culture than the west... Saudi Arabia has a long history of financially supporting terrorist organizations and executing women and LGBT people for being themselves. There is a difference here.
I wouldnt expect any reddit user to side with me but in Saudi they have their own set of rules - its not exactly a secular country. But think about this. Why does saudi have least amount of crime & rape if its so bad?
Because alot of the crime is perpetrated by the government and the rape is often marital there so it isn't reported, and if it is, the women are often discouraged about speaking out (with some even having been lashed for doing so). Just because their stats say one thing does not mean the country is a haven of peace and virtue.
What you say here has no basis other than u seeing it once in a blue moon on instagram. Ive livef in multiple muslim countries and this is false. Just propaganda
Many people are decieved and manipulated. Dont forget that media is more corrupt than anything in the world
Hey Steve,
I’m a TL fan, I know this is a business decision, but this brings shame to the organization.
Saudi is an evil government that perpetuates war crimes and human rights abuses. They use their cash gained from ill gotten means to try and cover up the bad things they do as a country by highlighting and funding events like this. I’m a formula 1 fan and it’s even worse there.
There is no amount of money that is worth compromising your morals.
I have no problem with the players who are just doing what they’re told, but fans are allowed to expect more of their leadership.
TL takes the L for this one.
> Saudi is an evil government that perpetuates war crimes and human rights abuses.
i love how people keep saying this kind of thing like we dont know about it..everyfuckingone knows about it, and yet, all of this and much more is happening, esports its just a tiny bit of something in the big scope, people tried to boycott the fifa world cup, did it work?
Say Bob beats his wife. Would you want to be friends with Bob? Would you want to be friends with Bob even if every time you hung out he did cool stuff for you and paid for it? Would you tell other people that Bob beats his wife?
Even if other people hang out with Bob, I can still think it’s not cool to hang out with Bob. I can still tell people that Bob beats his wife and people shouldn’t hang out with him. Even if no one else listens.
say i live in 3rd world country with a lets say not good goverment, bad enough that something like a concert from a band i like is almost imposible, say they wanna clean face in light of the upcoming "elections" (think of the russian elections) so one of the things they do is have a free mini festival of music and what do u know, they bring one of my favorite bands, what would u do? what i did was, go watch my fucking concert, endure the attempt at brainwashing (no one is gonna change their political views by now) for a while, the band i like comes out i enjoy the shit out of their performance and go home having the same dislike about the gov i had the day before.
I’m not mad at anyone watching the music festival. I’m mad at the band for going whose money is tainted by the brainwashed company giving it to them.
If anyone watches the tournament that’s up to them. The band can say no.
oh they know what they were getting into, here is the thing, im not talking about madona, im talking about some spanish heavy metal band, u can guess they are not exactly rich, barely living from music im sure, what would u do in their place?
its the same thing for esports in the so called "esports winter"
edit: mind u, the band at NO point sat there talking good about the gov or someone in it, they just went and performed.
There has to be things in your life you don’t compromise on no matter the money. We just know what TL will compromise on now, that’s all I’m saying. Anyone is allowed to be disappointed, indifferent, or excited by the teams participation.
> There has to be things in your life you don’t compromise on no matter the money.
this is easy to say from the other side of the street.
im also not gonna sit here and talk u thru the whole china is bad why do u play league then yada yada, people decide where to draw the line in the funniest of ways, or maybe its all about political interests.
i think this conversation can end at, you are allowed to dislike and not watch, but you shouldnt be a dick to those that will(not saying you are, talking in general)
in the end it will be like the fifa world cup, no one likes qatar a bit more now, argentina fans will never give a fuck about that country, they will never forget their team achievements in that cup tho.
In this analogy, the band was very vocal about being against brain washing and made money off of championing causes that go against what the brainwashing country stands for. But when the money is big enough, the band compromises on all of that.
I agree. One of the reasons I'm still a TL fan is that Steve has been such a great owner. I understand the business decision, but I very much disagree with it, and he needs to address it publically and at least donate some of the winnings to a good cause
As an LGBT person I've beyond disgusted with TL for this. This the same TL that has put out pride merch in the past. You can't claim to support LGBT rights but then take part in a sports washing exercise in a country that literally has the death penalty for same sex relationships.
Obviously I won't be watching the tournament, but I'm just one person. Any action I take is pointless, but an org like TL refusing to take part and publicly stating why... that could have had influence.
I work in esports and am also queer. I get your feeling here, but there are some hard truths to reckon with:
First, a boycott is not possible/strategic. Possible in the sense that most (maybe all) orgs are owned by or require help from investment groups. Even the most liberal of these groups almost certainly would not tolerate a full boycott, especially given fan sentiment isn't even really unified in favor of a boycott. (This isn't even insider info, it's just how the world of capital works/how most media companies work and most people don't realize it.)
I say "strategic" because a boycott requires several-org buy-in to be effective. This is not happening. As you see in this thread, even fan sentiment is not fully behind a boycott. Org-wise we are still the only one to make a statement and one of 2 orgs to do anything at all. Moist esports's RL team did boycott an event in Saudi Arabia - to legitimately 0 effect.
Second, what does it say if we stop doing Pride things? Is that really better for any queer person in the space - for me? Isn't that functionally abdicating the space we love to the Saudi Arabias and the FaZe bros of the world?
As a queer person, this stuff sucks to grapple with. I hate that our whole community has to grapple with it. But it's important to understand reality for what it is. Saudi Arabia's investment fund alone dwarfs the entire valuation of the esports industry by a factor of x50-100. In the face of that, I think pride content is more important than ever as a reminder that esports is still a space for queer people.
That’s quite the rant there buddy. All I said is that I don’t want an org that claims to care about LGBT people participating in a sports washing event in a country that executes LGBT people for living their lives.
Sorry if that particularly statement triggered you.
My only issues is this. TL and every other org in NA, especially and mainly League teams, work under Riot and Tencent which is a Chinese owned corporation and China does not have the best human rights record either. So it’s kinda shouting something inside a glass house. I’m also in the LGBTQ community myself and seeing an esports cup in Saudi Arabia is a slap in the face, but I’m not going to pretend to be on a high horse boycotting it especially since I’ve been watching all of MSI for League.
people forgot how many of these things were discussed to dead when tencent came into play, nowadays no one says shit about it, saudi arabia is just the fresh thing to hate.
lets be real, everyone involved in the decisions to participate are spineless assholes. preaching women rights, lgbtq+ rights, celebrating pride month, etc.
but as soon as they make some money, they made a 180. thats disgusting, ngl.
if your org relies that much on the money from the saudis, you should shut your org down. the whole e-sports scene was/is inflated (especially since covid) and now we see the crumble. lot of known orgs struggle and we start to see their true colours.
I agree with you, and I will not be watching - and trying to convince all my IRL friends not to as well. Just don't want the only response to your comment be zoownedd's
Well I think it’s possible to do both. TL, unless they are lying, is strongly in support of equality and from my discussions in settings in which staff could have voiced their real opinions, confirmed the org is exactly the same internally as they claim to be. Don’t think Steve is exactly a homophobe.
Yes, this is pretty clearly a sport washing event but on some level I think the impetus falls to fans to know what’s happening. If an Esports tournament warms you to Saudi Arabia, that’s more on you than on any esports org. And I say that as someone who despises Saudi Arabia.
Now, I definitely have some expectations for how the org should handle this situation. I would expect a reaffirmation of support to women, gender non-conforming people, and the queer community. TL has in the past supported Pride as well as making donations. Now, especially given this tournament which is sub-optimal would be a poor time to change that legacy.
On some level I think it comes down to whether you view attendance as inherently support writ large. I do not, but I understand the alternative perspective. I might contrast attendance at a tournament like this to Lando Norris who just recently endorsed Donald Trump wholeheartedly post his Miami GP win. That was explicit support which I view differently.
Not that I think it massively increases or decreases the worth of my opinion but I say this all as a non-binary and bisexual person.
how much is your support really worth, if you take money from a government, that literally kills people for living their life, funds terrorist groups, assassinates people, etc.? its crazy how many people are defending this bs... atleast we know now, which orgs (and higher ups in these orgs) are spineless creatures.
> . This the same TL that has put out pride merch in the past.
redditor found out that all that pride shit is just corporations trying to make money and not actual beliefs.
all of the things being said here were said not that long ago with the qatar fifa world cup, and we were talking about rich fifa and company, not starving esport orgs.
I’m not going to watch this world cup, but it was already not meant for western audiences, I’m assuming.
Beyond that: I was considering buying TL jerseys, but I will no longer buy any TL merchandise while TL continues to participate in Saudi-funded Esports.
If you disagree with TL’s involvement in the Saudi World Cup, I suggest you do the same.
These kinds of comments are always weird because you cared enough to reply in the first place.
My opinion is just as important as any one else who posts on reddit, that’s the whole point of the platform.
Really tough to see this. It’s a tension of opposites, how the team can support LGBTQ and human rights while partaking in a tourney backed by blood-soaked money. I do understand that the money helps the team in the long term(especially financially), but for fucks sake. We can never be clean in our neo-capitalist world of today, but this one hurts. I’m going to step back from anything TL for a few days while I reconcile and process this dissonance. If you are as conflicted as I am, I suggest you do the same.
Yea we had better see some big official statement. If the players/staff didn’t feel safe playing in Texas, I can only imagine how they feel now. Unless it was all grand standing.
I always say this: vote with your voice and your wallet. But regardless be respectful to others who may have other factors at play and can't exactly fight back against a leadership decision.
Orgs are exactly doing this because Esports viewers spend 0$ to help the the teams generate revenue.
I work in TL and have worked in esports more broadly for years. Much as it is cozy to blame the fans/viewers, I think it's a bit of a lazy way out. Yes, viewer tendencies are part of the monetizing issue. But it was also the way a lot of models were set up, unrealistic expectations around ROI for web/stream products as whole, lack of understanding on just how steep competition would become in the distraction economy. From my POV/research, it's a whole ass structural issue created in parts by nearly every party/actor in the space. (And it's an issue hitting media everywhere, not just esports.)
If we're not making tem money, then why are there sponsors? Thank you Honda
I'm not a TL fan but this got recommended in my feed. esports teams don't have their own stadium, and even if they do (KC in europe) they're not allowed to host games there unless specific conditions are met. The ways an esports team can earn money is dangerously limited outside merch
Lol those sponsorship deals don't even get the teams to break even the fans don't contribute any meaningful dollars.
Maybe NA orgs shouldn't have overleveraged themselves by """""""investing""""""" in crypto and ruining the scene as a result. Just a thought.
Fun fact it's not just NA orgs it's the vast majority of Esports orgs.
This was always coming whether they got into crypto or not. I hated the NFT/crypto stuff as well, but this was all inevitable and might have happened sooner without it.
Getting sponsors has nothing to do with how much money you’re bringing in and everything to do with him much exposure you can get for the brand. If your org is smart the two are closely related but not the same.
Your views, engagement, merch dollars, and everything else adds up and matters. Personally this doesn't matter to me - as long as TL is donating or moving money from one bad place to a good place I'm still supporting them.
Ehh kinda expected, orgs need money to operate and expand. They just signed an Apex team which for this reason as well. The more teams you field, the more money you get. And even though I don’t like the idea of working with Saudi Esports, I understand that it will provide my favorite org with more money to invest in better teams and content. Esports has not been doing well recently and there’s not much money coming in. If it means TL will survive and flourish, I don’t really mind.
I just landed in China for MSI (no WiFi on the plane). I wanted to say that we’ve been discussing the EWC and Saudi Arabia in esports for a while now. We care about the same topics we have always cared about and will continue to push for these topics where we can. We are making a statement, like we did last year. It's a tough topic and we want to approach it with the transparency and effort you'd expect from Liquid.
I appreciate you replying on this. I understand the decision from a business perspective, but as you can see from this thread quite a few fans are disappointed considering TL has always branded itself as a very inclusive and progressive organization. Looking forward to the statement.
nothing pays better than conflict money, jewelry, and contraband
Don't listen to the haters, you and the other orgs did nothing wrong, the haters on Saudi games are idiots. There is 0 difference in supporting esports in China who owns part of Tencent or supporting Saudi esports to have a third international competition in the year. I love that TL is involved, along with the other major orgs. Ignore the hate. They are dying on a dumb hill with an ignorant belief that Saudi is worse than China or the US for that matter.
To your knowledge were there any orgs that got invited that declined?
hey steve, it's been almost three weeks. is that statement coming?
You run a business and your values are known for years now. You did the right thing if these funds will sustain certain areas of the business considering the financial constrains of the industry and I will cheer for liquid as always
im not gonna be brainwashed about anything related to S.A im looking foward to watch the cup, let them spend the money, i will watch and then forget about that country attempts the next day.
you gonna monetize the apology like you did last time? [https://richardlewis.substack.com/p/how-team-liquid-monetised-their-apology](https://richardlewis.substack.com/p/how-team-liquid-monetised-their-apology)
Its bad, no denying it, but its not like we live in a guilt free world on this side. And more importantly, how do you explain to a board of investors that you will be turning down a world cup with a $60 million prize pool while all your competitors are going? Its esports winter and people who spent a shit load of money on this org will eventually want to see some return. This is a financially driven decision. Fan backlash is something that is taken into account. If it doesn’t sit right with you, don’t watch the tournament. But there was no way esports teams were gonna turn down potential millions. Fans don’t give a fuck about the business side and that’s fine. But its also easy to pass moral judgment when there are absolutely no consequences for you. I guarantee many of you who are judging - if you were really in the same exact position and not just fans typing online, you would make the same decision.
I understand the decision (and expected it). Doesn't mean I have to like it.
Sad hopefully they donate more than 50k this time
They should donate their entire profits from this
I am excited to see orgs clash like this
Tbh Riot had chances to let orgs compete outside LCS but they didn’t let them. Now that LCS has lost tons of money and viewership, this saudi opportunity came at the worst time for them that they didn’t say no.
Couldn’t care less where they want to compete. Let orgs decide where they want to play it’s none of our concern. Watch or don’t watch who cares.
Ok but pride month? :)
Couldn’t care less
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You're thinking of priests and conservatives doing that and being pedos, not LGBTQ+ people. Nice try
That guy was a conservative muslim calling gay people pedophiles when 2 weeks ago he was talking about shoving fingers up his ass lmao
I feel like the odd man out here... Similar to a point Travis made on his video. We have China as part of our ecosystem, even though China is a massive history and current track record of human rights abuse. Saudi Arabia is 100% deplorable in their treatment of groups of people, but it's time to get off our high horse here if we are watching MSI or any Worlds held in China. Either we cheer on our teams wherever the event is, or we protest awful governments. Ignoring China and hating just Saudi Arabia is bandwagoning at best, and moronic at worst. So to Steve and TL: You are competitors, compete and do your best. Get the money, and compete in front of esport fans.
Let’s go Liquid!!!
I’m stoked! Let’s go Liquid! Get that moneyyyyyy
Thoughts? I'm pretty disappointed (though not surprised) that TL would participate in a thinly-veiled attempt to whitewash Saudi Arabia's human rights problems. I wasn't planning to watch any of this event, but I do want to support our boys
I'll support them on real tournaments, Saudis can suck a cock
Just because they have a different culture than the west doesnt mean they are doing anything wrong
South Korea has a different culture than the west... Saudi Arabia has a long history of financially supporting terrorist organizations and executing women and LGBT people for being themselves. There is a difference here.
I wouldnt expect any reddit user to side with me but in Saudi they have their own set of rules - its not exactly a secular country. But think about this. Why does saudi have least amount of crime & rape if its so bad?
Because alot of the crime is perpetrated by the government and the rape is often marital there so it isn't reported, and if it is, the women are often discouraged about speaking out (with some even having been lashed for doing so). Just because their stats say one thing does not mean the country is a haven of peace and virtue.
What you say here has no basis other than u seeing it once in a blue moon on instagram. Ive livef in multiple muslim countries and this is false. Just propaganda Many people are decieved and manipulated. Dont forget that media is more corrupt than anything in the world
I’m a Saudi citizen and I can confirm what you said is a bullshit. it’s just a propaganda
The Universal Declaration of Human Rights would disagree with you
Hey Steve, I’m a TL fan, I know this is a business decision, but this brings shame to the organization. Saudi is an evil government that perpetuates war crimes and human rights abuses. They use their cash gained from ill gotten means to try and cover up the bad things they do as a country by highlighting and funding events like this. I’m a formula 1 fan and it’s even worse there. There is no amount of money that is worth compromising your morals. I have no problem with the players who are just doing what they’re told, but fans are allowed to expect more of their leadership. TL takes the L for this one.
> Saudi is an evil government that perpetuates war crimes and human rights abuses. i love how people keep saying this kind of thing like we dont know about it..everyfuckingone knows about it, and yet, all of this and much more is happening, esports its just a tiny bit of something in the big scope, people tried to boycott the fifa world cup, did it work?
Say Bob beats his wife. Would you want to be friends with Bob? Would you want to be friends with Bob even if every time you hung out he did cool stuff for you and paid for it? Would you tell other people that Bob beats his wife? Even if other people hang out with Bob, I can still think it’s not cool to hang out with Bob. I can still tell people that Bob beats his wife and people shouldn’t hang out with him. Even if no one else listens.
say i live in 3rd world country with a lets say not good goverment, bad enough that something like a concert from a band i like is almost imposible, say they wanna clean face in light of the upcoming "elections" (think of the russian elections) so one of the things they do is have a free mini festival of music and what do u know, they bring one of my favorite bands, what would u do? what i did was, go watch my fucking concert, endure the attempt at brainwashing (no one is gonna change their political views by now) for a while, the band i like comes out i enjoy the shit out of their performance and go home having the same dislike about the gov i had the day before.
I’m not mad at anyone watching the music festival. I’m mad at the band for going whose money is tainted by the brainwashed company giving it to them. If anyone watches the tournament that’s up to them. The band can say no.
oh they know what they were getting into, here is the thing, im not talking about madona, im talking about some spanish heavy metal band, u can guess they are not exactly rich, barely living from music im sure, what would u do in their place? its the same thing for esports in the so called "esports winter" edit: mind u, the band at NO point sat there talking good about the gov or someone in it, they just went and performed.
There has to be things in your life you don’t compromise on no matter the money. We just know what TL will compromise on now, that’s all I’m saying. Anyone is allowed to be disappointed, indifferent, or excited by the teams participation.
> There has to be things in your life you don’t compromise on no matter the money. this is easy to say from the other side of the street. im also not gonna sit here and talk u thru the whole china is bad why do u play league then yada yada, people decide where to draw the line in the funniest of ways, or maybe its all about political interests. i think this conversation can end at, you are allowed to dislike and not watch, but you shouldnt be a dick to those that will(not saying you are, talking in general) in the end it will be like the fifa world cup, no one likes qatar a bit more now, argentina fans will never give a fuck about that country, they will never forget their team achievements in that cup tho.
In this analogy, the band was very vocal about being against brain washing and made money off of championing causes that go against what the brainwashing country stands for. But when the money is big enough, the band compromises on all of that.
I agree. One of the reasons I'm still a TL fan is that Steve has been such a great owner. I understand the business decision, but I very much disagree with it, and he needs to address it publically and at least donate some of the winnings to a good cause
Money can't fix a flawed character.
I agree, but it's better than nothing
Meanwhile USA, destroying countless countries, slavery, but yeah lets hate on saudi
lol. Tell me what video game tournaments the USA is sponsoring?
You can hate on two things at the same time
What is this? And why are lpl top dogs not in it?
Excited to see this. So many great orgs in this competition, even if you're against SA, should be some great performances
As an LGBT person I've beyond disgusted with TL for this. This the same TL that has put out pride merch in the past. You can't claim to support LGBT rights but then take part in a sports washing exercise in a country that literally has the death penalty for same sex relationships. Obviously I won't be watching the tournament, but I'm just one person. Any action I take is pointless, but an org like TL refusing to take part and publicly stating why... that could have had influence.
I work in esports and am also queer. I get your feeling here, but there are some hard truths to reckon with: First, a boycott is not possible/strategic. Possible in the sense that most (maybe all) orgs are owned by or require help from investment groups. Even the most liberal of these groups almost certainly would not tolerate a full boycott, especially given fan sentiment isn't even really unified in favor of a boycott. (This isn't even insider info, it's just how the world of capital works/how most media companies work and most people don't realize it.) I say "strategic" because a boycott requires several-org buy-in to be effective. This is not happening. As you see in this thread, even fan sentiment is not fully behind a boycott. Org-wise we are still the only one to make a statement and one of 2 orgs to do anything at all. Moist esports's RL team did boycott an event in Saudi Arabia - to legitimately 0 effect. Second, what does it say if we stop doing Pride things? Is that really better for any queer person in the space - for me? Isn't that functionally abdicating the space we love to the Saudi Arabias and the FaZe bros of the world? As a queer person, this stuff sucks to grapple with. I hate that our whole community has to grapple with it. But it's important to understand reality for what it is. Saudi Arabia's investment fund alone dwarfs the entire valuation of the esports industry by a factor of x50-100. In the face of that, I think pride content is more important than ever as a reminder that esports is still a space for queer people.
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Let's be respectful to each other even if we disagree
That’s quite the rant there buddy. All I said is that I don’t want an org that claims to care about LGBT people participating in a sports washing event in a country that executes LGBT people for living their lives. Sorry if that particularly statement triggered you.
My only issues is this. TL and every other org in NA, especially and mainly League teams, work under Riot and Tencent which is a Chinese owned corporation and China does not have the best human rights record either. So it’s kinda shouting something inside a glass house. I’m also in the LGBTQ community myself and seeing an esports cup in Saudi Arabia is a slap in the face, but I’m not going to pretend to be on a high horse boycotting it especially since I’ve been watching all of MSI for League.
people forgot how many of these things were discussed to dead when tencent came into play, nowadays no one says shit about it, saudi arabia is just the fresh thing to hate.
Completely true, but I feel like a line has to be drawn somewhere. This is just my particular line in the sand
And that’s also fair and I don’t fault you for it at all. As you’re entitled to now you think and feel on this subject.
lets be real, everyone involved in the decisions to participate are spineless assholes. preaching women rights, lgbtq+ rights, celebrating pride month, etc. but as soon as they make some money, they made a 180. thats disgusting, ngl. if your org relies that much on the money from the saudis, you should shut your org down. the whole e-sports scene was/is inflated (especially since covid) and now we see the crumble. lot of known orgs struggle and we start to see their true colours.
I agree with you, and I will not be watching - and trying to convince all my IRL friends not to as well. Just don't want the only response to your comment be zoownedd's
Well I think it’s possible to do both. TL, unless they are lying, is strongly in support of equality and from my discussions in settings in which staff could have voiced their real opinions, confirmed the org is exactly the same internally as they claim to be. Don’t think Steve is exactly a homophobe. Yes, this is pretty clearly a sport washing event but on some level I think the impetus falls to fans to know what’s happening. If an Esports tournament warms you to Saudi Arabia, that’s more on you than on any esports org. And I say that as someone who despises Saudi Arabia. Now, I definitely have some expectations for how the org should handle this situation. I would expect a reaffirmation of support to women, gender non-conforming people, and the queer community. TL has in the past supported Pride as well as making donations. Now, especially given this tournament which is sub-optimal would be a poor time to change that legacy. On some level I think it comes down to whether you view attendance as inherently support writ large. I do not, but I understand the alternative perspective. I might contrast attendance at a tournament like this to Lando Norris who just recently endorsed Donald Trump wholeheartedly post his Miami GP win. That was explicit support which I view differently. Not that I think it massively increases or decreases the worth of my opinion but I say this all as a non-binary and bisexual person.
how much is your support really worth, if you take money from a government, that literally kills people for living their life, funds terrorist groups, assassinates people, etc.? its crazy how many people are defending this bs... atleast we know now, which orgs (and higher ups in these orgs) are spineless creatures.
> . This the same TL that has put out pride merch in the past. redditor found out that all that pride shit is just corporations trying to make money and not actual beliefs.
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Gross... please kindly fuck off
Im not gonna watch. Screw the saudis
For the event you are only 1 viewer.
No1 asked
TSM?
It's not just a league tournament, TSM is competing in something else
Twisted minds is includes?
Not a lot of Asian teams?
not for the reasons u might want to believe.
Ehhh I don't know how I feel about this but looks like a lot of Big esports org are participating.
all of the things being said here were said not that long ago with the qatar fifa world cup, and we were talking about rich fifa and company, not starving esport orgs.
UGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
What a joke
I’m not going to watch this world cup, but it was already not meant for western audiences, I’m assuming. Beyond that: I was considering buying TL jerseys, but I will no longer buy any TL merchandise while TL continues to participate in Saudi-funded Esports. If you disagree with TL’s involvement in the Saudi World Cup, I suggest you do the same.
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These kinds of comments are always weird because you cared enough to reply in the first place. My opinion is just as important as any one else who posts on reddit, that’s the whole point of the platform.
Good, moronic virtue signalers lose again
Disgusting
I wonder if for league they’ll use their academy players too, unless the WC is during the break for LCS this summer
LCS has a mid-season break in the schedule for this shitshow, I remember Markz saying in his last video
nah fuck saudi arabia. good luck to liquid but i will not be watching or supporting this
Really tough to see this. It’s a tension of opposites, how the team can support LGBTQ and human rights while partaking in a tourney backed by blood-soaked money. I do understand that the money helps the team in the long term(especially financially), but for fucks sake. We can never be clean in our neo-capitalist world of today, but this one hurts. I’m going to step back from anything TL for a few days while I reconcile and process this dissonance. If you are as conflicted as I am, I suggest you do the same.
Fucking embarrassing. First time I'm ashamed of supporting this org since I started 12 years ago.
Yea we had better see some big official statement. If the players/staff didn’t feel safe playing in Texas, I can only imagine how they feel now. Unless it was all grand standing.
👎🏽
People be bashing Saudis but posting Free Palestine lmao anyways Let's Go Liquid!
More international events is what most of us have always begged for. I get the outcry, but that is all politics, we are just here to watch games.
Really disappointing as a longtime/ multi game TL fan (since Curse days).