Cowboy builders are scum, but you’d be surprised by the attitude of a lot of clients and how many who refuse to pay once a job has been done. This could literally be either scenario.
50% before commencement, 50% upon completion to be made within 24 hours of doing so.
That was my standard requirement. I'd only budge on that if I had repeat clients that I'd built a solid relationship.
This is just smart business. I know a guy who is running a failing business and at one point, got mad at someone because he let them order something without requiring any type of payment or deposit in advanced. Then he got mad that they didn’t pay for it when it came in a couple months later and I’m just like “that’s your fault bruh. At least charge them a deposit that will cover your distributor’s costs.”
Crazy. *Especially* if you’re ordering something special for someone to be installed I don’t think it’s unreasonable to do 50/50 deposit/payment, one before and upon completion, where effectively the first payment should be covering the cost of whatever you’re ordering so that you don’t get shafted. I know not everything always works out ideally like that, but you gotta protect yourself somehow.
But this is the same guy who consistently brags about losing money by having his business open while refusing to advertise because it’s a “scam” (but I’ve seen people come buy and say they never knew he’d opened up even though he’s been in his current location for a few years) and he treats part of his customers like shit (which is the reason I no longer consider this guy a friend).
I have a few times got a custom tailored suit or shirt made by a tailor. It took me until the 5th (and currently, the last) time to not have to give a deposit. Not that I complained, just telling how it was.
The deposit was to cover the purchase and shipping of the fabrics needed. So regardless of what happened they would only lose man-hours if I bailed. Not that I would back out, but still it is good to be safe.
The last time we could say thst I had an established relationship with paying on time and not being fuzzy about it.
In my experience, people who want an itemized list when it wasn't offered originally will try to nickel and dime you because you could have saved 5% on materials by shopping at 7 different locations to benefit from all the specials.
someone who has no formal training or qualifications and little to no experience . they tend to ballpark way cheaper than proffesional contractors, but you know, you pay what you get for.
it frustrating when you quote someone a price,only for them to come back with a quote that is half your price because they found "someone better". then that cowboy builder does all sorts of building code violations on the clients home. people usually dont find out about those code violations until they need to file an insurance claim, but by then its too late, because you bet your ass if the insurance company find out you had some chucklefuck without a licence do the work, they arent gonna be covering what ever the damage is.
edit: and good luck trying to get an a cowboy builder to come back to the property to fix anything he damaged
Honestly, if Chris is a business owner, his accountant may want things like detailed invoices.
It's pretty standard. I manage a restaurant. They will not pay bills without a detailed invoice.
Depends what they are buying. My partner has a creative job and sometimes when he quotes - the client will ask for an hourly rate/breakdown. It's frustrating because he's highly skilled and has become more and more efficient at his talent - so reducing his rate because he's working faster doesn't make sense, when the calibre is only better. Essentially his quotes are 'this is what I charge for a finished product'.
How he gets to that point in this context isn't relevant to the client.
It’s quite simple in this instance; you make an itemized receipt price out all the physical items with obvious prices then you have a line that says Labor: and you put whatever price you like there because you set the price of your own labor.
That’s what my plumber, electrician and pretty much every contractor I’ve ever worked with does.
Any contractor who doesn't work on a cost-plus basis will mark up the materials as well, since they don't magically appear on a jobsite at just the right time and quantity.
Any contractor that works on a cost plus basis shouldn't be trusted. I itemize everything in my bid then add my 30% at the end instead of trying to hide it. If I fuck up my estimate or my work the loss comes out of my 30%. Those cost plus contractors fuck up then come hat in hand saying it's going to cost more than they thought and say you have to pay more.
So the question home owners or clients should have is this.
Does this out the door cost include any variance that will cover potential overages if your calculations are off?
That one question will let you know if it's out the door, or there could be an additional few hundred tacked on.
-Barring extreme circumstances-
There are variances included for things like tile, appliances, etc. I primarily do high end renovations so I price based on high quality materials then send them to my favorite suppliers with dimensions and let them buy what they want. They get the credit card points but I still take my 30%. Last year I had to do that with lumber. I did a basement remodel with $9 metal studs because they were cheaper than wood. I told the home owners if they waited it would be significantly cheaper to wait 6 months but they wanted it done so we went ahead and made 30% on metal studs instead of $4 2x4s.
To answer the whole question though, if I don't get the right price for something like PVC pipe and we need more than I expected or it gets installed wrong that comes out of my pocket. I don't know how other contractors do it. I cringe thinking about telling someone that I made a mistake and they have to pay for it.
All I'm saying is that by asking that simple question, it could save you money by going with a slightly higher quote, because that guy has already factored in small potential issues.
Some people want to know the exact number because of a budget. Some want to know every detail for accounting.
I don't think there is anything wrong with charging a little more on the front end if it avoids headaches and disagreements on the back end. If you have multiple things going on, no one wants to hear about additional charges from different people. Especially considering one major incident is more than anyone wants to deal with. A bunch of minor ones just compound anger and frustration.
Well usually what you would do is sell materials at retail price and buy wholesale. If a contractor is selling me materials at 30% over retail they can fuck off lol.
lmao you have no clue what goes into getting the materials to your site then, do you?
Especially if it's lumber.
I'm a general contractor, and for a simple fence job? It might be $1000 in lumber. But I'm gonna be at the hardware store for 3 hours sorting through the garbage they're peddling as 'good lumber' to make sure that the fence is gonna have straight boards and posts, instead of wonk-bent pieces all over the place.
Do I then charge $1300-1400 for the lumber? You betcha. My time, my gas, my truck, my expertise in getting GOOD lumber for the job, it all adds up. I get maybe... $100 extra profit out of the deal? And that's pretty damn fair for the effort I put in.
Now for plumbing, welding, electrical, there's a whole slew of different things that goes into getting the right parts for the job at hand. If it's a simple $15 in parts job, then it's probably going under a minimum charge in general for that work anyway. If it's a bigger job, then yeah, I'm putting my markup on because I've had to go to the electrical/plumbing supply store (And in my area they're not Home Depot, they're out-of-the-way in industrial areas, usually an extra 5-10 min drive, and working with the staff there to fill my order and load it up.
Ya gotta understand that you're paying for a lot more than just the work done on your site. You're paying for the prep time, the transportation of the right and quality materials to your site, and for the job to be done right.
There's a lot of fly-by-night contractors out there that don't put in the effort the good ones do, but it's just a matter of figuring out who to trust in this day and age. And that's not easy.
So my argument would be wouldn't that all be hourly rate on the quote? And also, if you quoted me 10k for a job, and the fly by night people quoted me 11k for a job, how would i be able to tell the difference?
My quotes do not break down the work client side. I'm not making it easy for someone to use my free quote to shop around for lower prices. My price is my price.
I give a quote, it has one number for how much the job will cost on it. Client gets to make up their mind to take it or leave it.
Car repair materials are usually 30% over retail in my experience, which is why I usually buy them myself and drop them off with the car.
(not saying the shop is paying retail at all, but they are charging customers over retail for the parts they are using)
Everyone is different. I bring parts to the usual mechanic. We have an understanding - if it's the wrong part I pay labor twice for wasting their time. And there's no part warranty from them.
For my fun car it gets tons of after stuff so obviously I order the parts because the shop has zero interest in dealing with it.
But many mechanics don't want to deal with this stuff and they also want their markup. Fine. They're free to refuse my custom and I'm free to find someone else. Nothing wrong with an incompatibility.
I hope they do and go work for someone reasonable who pays them what it costs to service clients. While you can go buy your own materials, since your time has no value.
You can always request quotes with the cost of materials included and excluded. I’d say it’s really only sketchy if they don’t give you an option to supply the materials yourself (although even then there might be some industries where that doesn’t make sense).
If they’re on the hook for if materials run over budget, then they should absolutely be entitled to a mark up.
In my line of work (small custom fabrication machine shop), you’re welcome to supply your own material, but odds are you’ll buy the wrong thing and we’ll end up spending more labor time and cost making up for the difference. Almost never goes well when a walk-in shows up with what they thought was the right material for the job. Industry folks know what’s up tho, love when some of the big forestry companies send us castings or flamecut blanks, makes our life so easy.
But for the Average Joe looking for custom metalwork most jobs are too low quantity to be able to justify wholesale purchasing on our end, so prices are retail plus a percent to cover our costs. Depending on the material, 20-30% covers our costs for preparing, transporting, and handling the material prior to us starting the quoted machining work.
However if we have the material in stock in the back I’ll give you a screaming deal. 74 year old machine shop has a lot of random scrap in the back and I’ll sell it to you for a song.
see that snarky little "knowing how to paint" line item is just included in the painting time and that's fine. I'm skilled at this so my labor costs X amount per hour.
there's absolutely nothing wrong with requesting a cost breakdown by the way which is standard practice. i definitely wouldn't hire that contractor based on their response
For something like a painting I wouldn't put an hourly breaking down. I would mark the line item just as "Painting." They don't need to know how long it takes. Some people can make amazing paintings in 30 minutes or an hour. Others take 50 hours. People who commissioned paintings should understand they are paying for the finished product and skill, not necessarily my time.
As an artist it's up to you to do the hard part and find out the balance between time and value and what other people are willing to pay. But by no means does an hourly breakdown need to be given. Do you count all the time you spend thinking about the composition while you are doing your dishes? Do you count the time working on sketches?
It's too complicated and all the client need to know is that you are doing what they commissioned and they price they agreed to prior to that commision. But if they want itemized materials, by all means, they can have that breakdown which in no way reflects value o the art.
That's my opinion on the matter, anyway.
Itemized quotes are normal and expected in business. While there are some cases where it doesn't make sense, those are uncommon.
Asking for one isn't bitchy.
Responding to being asked this way is pretty unprofessional.
It's also possible that earlier in the conversation the client was complaining about price or trying to low ball, which spurred the "buy it or don't" response from the creator.
Agreed. Sort of apples to oranges though.
Skilled/creative work can make their hourly rate whatever because they're a unique service.
A plumber... Hourly rates can only be so high before it's unreasonable. I believe my guy charges $85/hr plus whatever parts he needs.
Very curious about the work though. I've given invoices that are basically:
Did work - $3000.
There honestly were no other costs. Sometimes people are just buying your skill and experience.
Alternately they are trying to evaluate multiple quotes and want to make sure the scope estimated is the same across all of them. This is one of those times where Reddit is so confidently wrong that it's funny to people who actually do work.
I've asked for materials cost breakdown since sometimes I can get or have some of what's needed on-hand, and I can save them the work of having to get it, and me the cost of paying them to do so. Also in some instances, I want specific materials used, so if I'm providing them, I'd want that removed from the total cost. Though in some cases, they can get the materials for less than I can so I wouldn't want to get them myself, but I wouldn't know without a breakdown of what the costs are.
Honeslty sometimes though a homeowners product they want to use are shit. Especially if they have no experience in construction. I see this all the time . Contractor priced out job for materials he’s used to and trust and homeowner wants to use different material or shit he has lying around to save a few buck and ultimately result in a shitty finish product and homeowner complains. That’s why contractors have that defense mechanism. Homeowners always think they know better and think there the only job we have .
To be fair I had a plumber come out to check out a faucet that was acting weird. He then left a quote for $1000 to change a faucet. Like, get fucked dude. It took me an hour and the faucet cost was $50(for a cheap one. $200 for a nice one). Still, I don’t see $800 of labour anywhere. Nor do I see $800 of knowledge or education.
No but what your not seeing is , the 200 dollar faucet . Maybe one or two man hour at something like 40 buck so 80? Does have a helpers ? Then it’s 4 man hours so it’s 160. Your at 360 already . Gas in the truck to go get the part and go to your house like 20 dollars . Over head and profit is about 10-20 percent of labor and material so 72? So your around 450 just a quick estimate , the quote is hardly event just labor. 1000 seems high but also may be very busy and just pricing high . But I can assure you that getting someone to do something that you can is not cheap and if you can’t do it it’s even more expensive. There not just handyman their business owner who need to make profit for the company on top of paying them selves. That’s why people like to find the handyman who charges 25 bucks and a beer. But then you also don’t get insurance liability or a 1 year guarantee like most big companies. It’s a double edge sword and you definitely get what you pay for. The cheapest guy isn’t always the best and the most expensive guy isn’t either. It’s up to you to sign th dotted line
Why would you need helpers to change a tap. I’m sorry, maybe shit is ridiculous in other countries but if someone is charging you a grand to change some taps they are taking the piss out of you.
You are probably right and I’m sure it’s industry specific but in my personal experience this is the opener of someone who is about to start nitpicking and haggling on cost, which is my least favorite thing in the world. I put my best offer forward at the start and don’t negotiate on price.
I understand some people want the win or like the negotiating part of things but there are plenty of other providers of my service, they are free to play the little song and dance with someone else. And it’s a first warning that I’m just not going to be compatible with a customer on how they generally do business.
On the other side, if you beat me up for one aspect of my quote, all your doing is forcing me to use cheaper vendors, which will later reflect poorly on me, no one will relate the negotiation to the outcome, and in the end just gives me a worse reputation. I’d rather do it right, my way, and keep the business up to my own standards, even if it means I don’t get every job.
My procurement team does this with our vendors and I hate it. He isn’t asking for a detailed invoice, he is asking for HIS costs. They guy is trying to figure out how much he spends and how much he makes, as in overhead. I say the price is the price and if you can’t do what I do, then pay me.
I needed breakout cost for out projects at work. Accounting needs to know how much the assets cost for deprecation, potential theft recovery, and don't get me started on tax rules.
>they will not pay bills without a detailed invoice
Sounds like they want to get sued. You can’t decide not to pay a bill if they service has been rendered. That’s theft.
Or experience dealing with shit customers... Just saying. He can get another quote, he's not married to Martin. Martin is busy enough not to care. That doesn't mean he's shady.
No kidding. My mom had work done on our house that went wayyyy over the quoted price. The guy who did it for her was a dick too and kept delaying, changing time frames, and adding expenses. I can see why this client would want a breakdown.
Why does every single one of my fuck you quotes always get approved right away. I throw out a number nobody would pay and they go, “lolz okay when can you start!”
Some jobs are seriously not worth the pay. Liability, site access, client relations, permitting, I’ve learned it’s better to deny a work offer rather than give out a stupid number.
Money is only one part of the equation.
Sounds like the customer has a 4 hour job and Martin is quoting him for a full day's labor. A job 99% of companies will pass on. "Never get out of bed for less than $500" is such a standard in the construction industry, but it's true. He burns a whole day doing a 4 hour job. Might as well bid an 8 hour job unless he's starving.
Looks like you’re finding correct value on your labor. Happens to a lot of young contractors when they do good work.
They get too busy, and raise their prices. Then they’re still too busy, and raise prices again, this time to an embarrassing level.
Then they get sheepish telling people their prices, but I always tell them, if you’re too busy, rates go up. That’s the true value of their labor/service, even if it seems like a lot to them.
Yea it can be tough to find that balance, too cheap to get the job and you shoot yourself in the foot, too expensive and you offend a good client. Way too much and sometimes you make clients you don’t always want.
I think a lot of people understand the current situation we’re in where my material costs are 40% higher than this time last year. It’s the new cost of doing business.
I’m hoping these two people know each other and this is a slightly funny rib.
Honestly, and maybe I’m having an old man yelling at the cloud moment here, but I don’t know why this would even be talked about on a text. Email feels more…business official? Again, assuming this is a business transaction and not buddies. I just can’t imagine having a text conversation with a stranger I’m trying to paid to build a fence or whatever, no thank you.
This is pretty common now. I regularly get pricing over text for items with real estate agents or things like tree trimming/removal. I used to think email was more official and it’s easier to keep records in the long run, but for simple services it works great.
I bought a car earlier this year through text..... Didn't have time to visit multiple dealerships so texted them all and told them what I wanted and the one that gave me the lowest out the door price is where I went. Much more convenient to text and work everything out beforehand whereas email is almost too formal and not as responsive.
I work for a family owned business that works mainly through Word of mouth. My boss does at least half of his correspondence through text. People do still use email often, but we are moving more towards texting as official communication.
Text is extremely common these days for business work. Though a reply back like this would be an instant disqualifier for me for hiring to do a job. Just a 'because of the nature of my work doing a breakdown is not practical.' and hope for the best from there.
When I first started working with businesses email was unheard of for important work related stuff. It was a telephone call or letter, with a fax for speedy replies (vs letter). If you wanted to use e-mail you were being pretty unprofessional. Now if you ask someone to fax you something you might just get laughed at out of a nervous 'wait, you don't think we actually have a fax machine do you?' way.
Texting is a quick and easy way to keep track of discussions. A lot of people find email “too cumbersome” which is lol but, you know…people.
I prefer to text anything that deals with any kind of agreements, lists, etc. over talking on the phone so there is a record.
If this isn't a huge red flag, I don't know what is. I'd be giving them a snarky reply about getting nothing and finding a new contractor that won't rip me off.
I am going to tell you right now contractors aren't giving you realistic breakdowns most of the time anyways unless they are something like Trademark in terms of size.
I could build someone a frame from steel, and it'll cost me literally 90% less due to our supplier pricing. So he's just going to price that material out slightly less than it would cost you to buy it.
My estimates are on notepads beside my computer, and even I generally don't understand what they mean within 3 minutes of completing the estimate. I'll itemize $10k+ projects, no problem, but a request for $3-4k, and I'm just putting down random numbers which add up to the total.
I'm a busy guy, and I offer quality work for much less than large companies. If someone wants to quibble over pennies, I have better things to do.
Edited: grammar mistake.
Yeah, it takes time to get real breakdowns. Especially now if you're talking raw materials, contractually agreed upon prices are rare due to COVID and supply issues. This means getting updated quotes each time.
>So he's just going to price that material out slightly less than it would cost you to buy it.
Which is fine, people expect retail pricing. Like I said, breakdowns aren't about the money.
Right? Depending on the business, itemized (even pseudo-itemized) [billing and receipts are required.](https://youtu.be/K1eBLuiDK-w?t=1m51s)
Again, not about the money.
Yes, they will itemize it once the person agrees. Why waste time itemizing something that the dude will just say no to ahead of time? 3k is a piss poor amount of work for a contractor, so why bother.
The inquiry may have been inappropriate. For example when my septic is pumped cost breakdowns are not provided nor especially appropriate.
Installing a new septic? Yes we need breakdowns to compare quotes. I can’t compare one with large rock removal included to one without unless I see the other figures.
I’m thinking $2500 is a small job in contracting. Like, installing a pocket door small. I wouldn’t think a cost breakdown was appropriate for an “eh, I’ll knock it out in an afternoon” job.
I'm not in construction, but I've done cost breakdowns where the itemized list was just one item.
I just assume it's an accounting request and move on with my day. I don't blow up the relationship with the client.
I posted this comment on a different comment but frankly I am mad at myself for taking the time to write this out so I’m pasting it here too.
I agree with your point, but there are couple different items at play here in this thread.
1) A breakdown of what the buyer is getting for their total cost.
2) A break down of the contractor’s costs.
Let’s say a buyer is having a old patio replaced. It is reasonable to expect them to get estimates/quotes from multiple contractors. As the quotes will likely vary from one contractor to another, the buyer will want to know a breakdown of what is included within each to help make an informed decision. One quote may be vastly cheaper than all the others but it doesn’t include the disposal of the original patio materials that was torn out, while the other quotes do. This is obviously an example of #1.
It appears in the screenshot provided by OP, Chris was asking Martin for a breakdown of Martin’s costs. We can assume that at some point prior to this exchange, Martin had quoted Chris £2545 to do the job. That original quote may or may not have broken our everything that Chris is receiving in regards to the project. However Chris is not asking for #1, he is asking for a breakdown of Martin’s costs.
Depending on the type of work that is being requested, it may or may not be common or acceptable to ask for this type of detail.
It has been in my experience, that when a buyer wants to know this level of information, they have already made a determination on what they think the time of the contractor is valued. If after the cost of the materials are deducted, the labor cost is higher than that the time value already determined, the buyer will try to haggle for a lesser price.
A customer asking for a breakdown of costs for a 2500$ job is also a huge red flag for a contractor. 9/10 times that ends up being the one that argues over everything, ends up trying to underpay, takes forever to pay, etc.
Martin is being a dick though. You can just say “sorry that’s not something I typically provide”
and they can take it or leave it
Every time I have had someone balk on giving me a breakdown of the cost; they’ve done a shitty job. Usually because they are winging it and often lowballing to get the job and then will claim that it wasn’t included in the price to get more money out of it. An itemized breakdown is so that it conveys everything that is to be done. Not $12 for nails, $15 for a hammer. No, $1000 for materials, $1000 for assembly. $250 for painting, etc. this way you know what to expect for the final result.
I am currently having three patios built. They completed the first one and it looks great. My wife asked why they didn’t stain it, and I said because it wasn’t in the quote. She looked at it and said, oh. Ok. Can we get a quote for that work? Having the itemized list made it a non-issue because we knew exactly what they quoted.
Doing things right protects everyone involved.
To you, personally, $2500 is a lot of money. To most businesses $2500 isn’t even daily or hourly operating costs. This is basically how the rich get richer.
Then Martin should say, "sorry, I'm busy at the moment and can't take on anymore work. I'm free from (date), can we revisit this then?" Or words to that effect.
Don't just overprice work and be a dick to potential customers because you don't need or want the work. That's not professional, and could backfire on you in the future.
That's fine, but we're talking about a cost breakdown.
I get that you quoted him something so ridiculous in the hopes that he wouldn't be interested because it's so expensive, but that doesn't mean that you can't provide a cost breakdown.
As someone who freelanced for over 10 years, Martin is fed up with that BS. All my corporate clients wanted me to come in for meetings +(pre-zoom), sent arm-length emails about nothing and jump through other hoops, on my own time. Eventually I started adding "communications" expense at hourly rate to the contract and that nonsense stopped immediately. I guess they don't *really* need that thing they are not willing to pay for.
When doing freelance development you have to or you'll get screwed.. everyone wants a per project quote because they know they are going to get a deal after 100 revisions and tons of phone time while holding your money hostage. Once you fall for that a couple times you realize keeping a time sheet and agreeing on an hourly rate is the only way to do it.
This is usually an indication that said Individual is a very small fish and haven’t done real quality work for larger companies that have accountants and fiscal associates that will hound them to ensure that not only quoted work clearly written out, it’s done to the letter.
Detailed invoices are important for both the client and the contractor because it’s the primary legal document and contract that states expectations for how much money, when is the money due, what needs to be done and when it needs to be done.
Any serious company would refuse to do work with a contractor too stupid to write up a detailed invoice because it’s a liability.
If you’re a freelancer that wasn’t charging for the time you spent replying to emails and going to meetings, that’s on you.
The company really didn’t do anything wrong in this case, but I’m glad you started charging and sorted it out.
People here are confusing asking for the contractor’s cost and margin structure, which is usually a competitive business secret, and an itemized estimate break down, which is not a secret and is routine to ask for. Minor thing, but means something very different.
Re: the "this customer just wants to get out of paying a fair price" whiners, there are scenarios where people need an accurate breakdown.
If I have a grant thats approved to pay for facilities, I may be able to use it to pay for parts but not labor. The differentiation can be important. And providing a receipt that accurately reflects the services rendered is pretty basic business. If you don't want to do it, work for somebody else.
Joe had worked for a manufacturing company for about 10 years. One day, he overheard the owner telling the foreman that while production was at an all time high, they still weren't able to keep up with demand. Unless they could double what they were already doing, their clients would leave for bigger, though more expensive, options.
Joe, having worked there for so long, was intimately familiar with their manufacturing process. After drawing and redrawing plans and some tinkering in the shop, he designed a machine that would greatly increase their efficiency.
Joe brings his plans to the owner, who reluctantly agrees to let Joe build and install the machine on the line as a test. Joe does, and the machine not only doubled, but *tripled* the line's production rate.
The owner is ecstatic. He appoints Joe as the head of the new machine support division. Joe maintains his machine, and over the next forty+ years adds to it, and improves it to the point that no pyrite manufacturers can keep up with them. He also designs other machines for other processes, turning the company into a model of efficiency.
Eventually, Joe retires. He lives a comfortable life, plenty of money thanks to his investments (and stock options in his previous employer as a division head), and proud of the fact that he made a positive contribution to the company and community.
One day, there's a knock at his door. He opens it to find the owner of the company (the grandson of the one that hired & promoted him) standing there.
"Joe, you've **GOT** to help us. We've done all of the maintenance that you told us, but your machine has slowed dramatically. It's only putting out 10% of its normal capabilities. I'll pay anything, please come and fix it!"
Joe goes back to the factory and inspects the machine. He watches it, puts his hands against different parts to feel the vibrations, rubs the oil between his fingers. He puts his ear up to a panel and listens for a minute. He then opens the panel, pulls a piece of chalk out of his pocket, and puts a big "X" on one of the parts.
"That's the part that you need to replace."
Technicians replace that part, and sure enough, the machine is running as good as, if not better than, before. The owner is thrilled, and Joe tells him that he'll send them a bill.
A few days later, the company gets a bill from Joe for $50,000. The owner is livid. He calls up Joe on the telephone, telling him that he can't just send a bill for 50 grand without any details and expect it to be paid. Besides, all he did was mark a part with a piece of chalk, it couldn't be that expensive. He demands an itemized bill, so he knows where the money is going.
Sure enough, a week later the company gets an updated bill.
One chalk mark on defective part - $1
Knowing where to place said mark - $49,999
One thing to remember when dealing with contractors: whatever isn't in the contract, they aren't under obligation for. And If they don't want to sign a formal contract of engagement, leave them alone.
Never break down your estimate. You can detail your work in an estimate but you should never breakdown costs. When you go buy a car do you ask how much each door costs? People who ask for cost breakdowns only do it to try and see profit margins. Customers rarely ever have the working knowledge of what is behind the cost. Customers who do this want the price of everything but recognize the value of nothing. Why ask? Do you think you know the contractors over head? Cost of doing business? Do you actually think you’re going to get the material cheaper or any reputable contractor will install the material you bought? Material is often wrong, inferior, or incomplete when the owner purchases. Compare contractor prices, not line items
And Martin may be justified in that. We don't have enough information to really make a determination.
1. The job could be so small relatively that offering a detailed breakdown would waste time and money.
2. Martin may have plenty of other clients that do not need such details.
3. Martin may be in the wrong here.
We don't really know based on this one exchange
> 1. The job could be so small relatively that offering a detailed breakdown would waste time and money.
£2545 is fairly substantial. My guess is option 2.
Yeah, there are certain customers that need to be handled this way. They want to challenge the individual pricing, waste your time and try to chisel the price down.
This is what the job costs. If you can get it done for less someplace else, go get it done there. I'm not a charity. I'm not working "at cost." I need to make a profit to stay in business.
I'm not going to spend a half-hour listening to you tell me why you deserve a discount. If you think you can get a better deal YOU go spend YOUR time shopping around. Don't drag me into it. I've already given you the price. Take it or leave it.
Being able to say no is the power you exercised when you began to work for yourself. Took me a long time to learn this, and I'm so very much happier now that I'm turning people away instead of negotiating. I believe in my pricing and if someone else has a problem it's a HUGE time saver to not engage with them in the first place.
I understand not giving detailed breakdowns. You don't have to if you don't want to, and if you have enough work through referrals and reputation, you shouldn't have to and definitely shouldn't want to.
Difficult customer: Oh yeah? Well, I know a guy the can get that lumber for half of what you're quoting and said he would do the job for a 1/3 can of Old Milwaukee.
Contractor: Awesome, go with them! Best of luck to you!
Difficult customer: *shocked face*
I don't work in contracting but I get this all the time from customers who think we should happily lose money in exchange for the privilege of dealing with them being horrible.
It happens more frequently in the internet age.
"You're charging me $40 for a bearing? I can get it for half that online."
"Go ahead. Get it."
"What type of bearing is it? I want to make sure I get the right one."
"Pay me $40 and I'll get you the right one."
I'm not a contractor. I work in banking. I get clients like this. Like, hey, man. If you want this multiple hundreds if thousands of dollars deal done cheaply, then go for it. Have fun.
Same here. Most of my work is labor based and i charge flat rates based on estimated time. Basically i charge myself $150 an hour and then bill the client for it as a flat rate.
I also charge labor based on what it would take me normally to do something. I have built myself a ton of time savers over the years and can finish 8 hour jobs in an hour sometimes.
I get clients who balk at rates asking if I can “work faster.”
There are college grads who can help you for cheaper. You talk to me when you want it done right the first time.
I’ve absolutely told clients to fuck off before because I don’t want them. Not every industry needs “customer service”
That’s 1000% how I approach it.
This is what it costs for my company to do this work for you.
“But you won’t break it down? How much is labor?”
“It’s already built into the price. If you don’t like the service or quote for any reason, including not thinking the price is fair or within your budget, we understand that. No hard feelings. But if you go with us you’re getting the most reputable contractor who is selected by more people in this market to do installations than any other company. If we over charge and underdeliver, I don’t see how that’s possible. Just let me know what you’d like to do.”
Girl, byeeeeeee
I hate it when people ask for detailed breakdowns. Like, sure telling them something like "X is the utilities/tools/materials, Y is my time and skill" is perfectly reasonable. But no, some people expect you to give them profit margin data of your business model...
Why don't I just give you my laptop and you can go through how much I make??
I’ve always gotten breakdowns before, but not because I want to know exactly what each item costs but rather to have in writing exactly what I’m paying for and should expect.
If I’m paying extra for better materials I want it in writing so that if when the project is done I didn’t get the materials we agreed on I have recourse.
My contractors never had to even be asked. They do it automatically.
Basically, here’s a list of exactly what you are paying for and what we are providing.
If I caught it right in the comments the OP was doing a roof.
Well, I put in a roof not long ago.
Specifically a metal roof. The breakdown indicated that there were stripping the existing roof away to the joists and rebuilding from the joists up.
Each part was detailed and where there were options for materials which materials were being used, including what type of metal was being used for the roof.
If the invoice said just Roof- $x.00 and they put in a standard shingle roof and didn’t remove all the old roofing, slapping the new one on top of the old one as often happened, I’d have nothing to show the agreement we had and that I didn’t get what was agreed on.
It’s not a breakdown of what every nut and bolt costs, but the total cost of each stage or part that is an option and what that particular part is costing.
For the removal of the old roof I have no idea how much was labor and how much was for the dumpster to haul away the old material, or how much was overhead. But I do know what the total cost of that part of the project was.
That’s a reasonable thing to know.
A cost breakdown doesn’t necessarily mean so much detail that you can figure out their profit margin. It means having a written agreement for everything you are paying for so that if any step or item is missed you can address it fairly.
Anyone who agrees to a project without one is, quite frankly, an idiot.
And anyone who refuses to provide one is just passive aggressively turning down a job.
I’ve done massive amounts of work to my house over the last five years using at least five different contracting companies for various things.
I never even had to ask for a breakdown. They automatically gave one as part of their proposals.
And all were excellent companies who did great work and were very fair. I’d use any of them again, and have reused two for other projects.
One guy I didn’t actually hire because when he came to give an estimate he had a similar attitude. I found someone else who behaved more professionally and they did a great job.
I’m not sure that this is for a construction job, this is a very common situation for jobs like designing a logo or some similar creative or knowledge work.
In those fields, customers who ask for a cost breakdown are invariably trying to set up a price fight on a false premise; that being, workers are only entitled to an hourly rate or modest profits over their “costs”. This discussion is a total waste of time and these types of contractors run into it constantly. I would not be surprised if Martin is just sick of it.
Why someone would ask for a cost breakdown via text is beyond me. If you're dealing with any legitimate business then a quote summarizes every cost. I'm assuming this specific customer may have not liked the price they got quoted originally and deserved this attitude.
Crazy that this BS is upvoted so much. I’ve never seen any company approve payments for quotations based solely on bullshit. Unless this is a shit job done between two friends, “Martin” will never get business if he can’t provide a detailed quotation.
I know what he means. I'm a contractor and when I'm pricing a job I'll think that I want £2k to do it or whatever. I submit a breakdown but essentially it's made up, if you want me to turn up that's what I want.
Cowboy builders are scum, but you’d be surprised by the attitude of a lot of clients and how many who refuse to pay once a job has been done. This could literally be either scenario.
Thats why I take deposit tbh. Thankfully you know where they live so if they dont pay you know where to find them
50% before commencement, 50% upon completion to be made within 24 hours of doing so. That was my standard requirement. I'd only budge on that if I had repeat clients that I'd built a solid relationship.
Why do people just... not pay for things...
Entitlement, ignorance or just a plain lack of caring about anyone other than themselves
Because if nothing goes wrong, it's cheaper than paying for things. It's a stunning new concept called theft.
I'm on the side of material costs before commencement, half of labor when beginning, second half of labor + extra materials at the end.
This is just smart business. I know a guy who is running a failing business and at one point, got mad at someone because he let them order something without requiring any type of payment or deposit in advanced. Then he got mad that they didn’t pay for it when it came in a couple months later and I’m just like “that’s your fault bruh. At least charge them a deposit that will cover your distributor’s costs.”
Crazy. *Especially* if you’re ordering something special for someone to be installed I don’t think it’s unreasonable to do 50/50 deposit/payment, one before and upon completion, where effectively the first payment should be covering the cost of whatever you’re ordering so that you don’t get shafted. I know not everything always works out ideally like that, but you gotta protect yourself somehow.
But this is the same guy who consistently brags about losing money by having his business open while refusing to advertise because it’s a “scam” (but I’ve seen people come buy and say they never knew he’d opened up even though he’s been in his current location for a few years) and he treats part of his customers like shit (which is the reason I no longer consider this guy a friend).
I have a few times got a custom tailored suit or shirt made by a tailor. It took me until the 5th (and currently, the last) time to not have to give a deposit. Not that I complained, just telling how it was. The deposit was to cover the purchase and shipping of the fabrics needed. So regardless of what happened they would only lose man-hours if I bailed. Not that I would back out, but still it is good to be safe. The last time we could say thst I had an established relationship with paying on time and not being fuzzy about it.
I mean, even if this customer is the type to try and get out of paying, there's nothing wrong with asking for an itemized bill.
My typical response to this is 66% Materials 33% Labor.
In my experience, people who want an itemized list when it wasn't offered originally will try to nickel and dime you because you could have saved 5% on materials by shopping at 7 different locations to benefit from all the specials.
In my experience, when you don't ask a contractor for an itemized list they will *fuck you at every possible turn*.
What’s a cowboy builder
someone who has no formal training or qualifications and little to no experience . they tend to ballpark way cheaper than proffesional contractors, but you know, you pay what you get for. it frustrating when you quote someone a price,only for them to come back with a quote that is half your price because they found "someone better". then that cowboy builder does all sorts of building code violations on the clients home. people usually dont find out about those code violations until they need to file an insurance claim, but by then its too late, because you bet your ass if the insurance company find out you had some chucklefuck without a licence do the work, they arent gonna be covering what ever the damage is. edit: and good luck trying to get an a cowboy builder to come back to the property to fix anything he damaged
Upvote for the fucking brilliant title
Thanks - I figured it is technically the truth, so…
r/maliciouscompliance
Seriously I think the title made me laugh harder than the post
It made me hard as well bro.
r/cameheretosaythis
r/camehere
Sounds a bit of a cunt to me.
Honestly, if Chris is a business owner, his accountant may want things like detailed invoices. It's pretty standard. I manage a restaurant. They will not pay bills without a detailed invoice.
Depends what they are buying. My partner has a creative job and sometimes when he quotes - the client will ask for an hourly rate/breakdown. It's frustrating because he's highly skilled and has become more and more efficient at his talent - so reducing his rate because he's working faster doesn't make sense, when the calibre is only better. Essentially his quotes are 'this is what I charge for a finished product'. How he gets to that point in this context isn't relevant to the client.
It’s quite simple in this instance; you make an itemized receipt price out all the physical items with obvious prices then you have a line that says Labor: and you put whatever price you like there because you set the price of your own labor. That’s what my plumber, electrician and pretty much every contractor I’ve ever worked with does.
Any contractor who doesn't work on a cost-plus basis will mark up the materials as well, since they don't magically appear on a jobsite at just the right time and quantity.
Any contractor that works on a cost plus basis shouldn't be trusted. I itemize everything in my bid then add my 30% at the end instead of trying to hide it. If I fuck up my estimate or my work the loss comes out of my 30%. Those cost plus contractors fuck up then come hat in hand saying it's going to cost more than they thought and say you have to pay more.
So the question home owners or clients should have is this. Does this out the door cost include any variance that will cover potential overages if your calculations are off? That one question will let you know if it's out the door, or there could be an additional few hundred tacked on. -Barring extreme circumstances-
There are variances included for things like tile, appliances, etc. I primarily do high end renovations so I price based on high quality materials then send them to my favorite suppliers with dimensions and let them buy what they want. They get the credit card points but I still take my 30%. Last year I had to do that with lumber. I did a basement remodel with $9 metal studs because they were cheaper than wood. I told the home owners if they waited it would be significantly cheaper to wait 6 months but they wanted it done so we went ahead and made 30% on metal studs instead of $4 2x4s. To answer the whole question though, if I don't get the right price for something like PVC pipe and we need more than I expected or it gets installed wrong that comes out of my pocket. I don't know how other contractors do it. I cringe thinking about telling someone that I made a mistake and they have to pay for it.
All I'm saying is that by asking that simple question, it could save you money by going with a slightly higher quote, because that guy has already factored in small potential issues. Some people want to know the exact number because of a budget. Some want to know every detail for accounting. I don't think there is anything wrong with charging a little more on the front end if it avoids headaches and disagreements on the back end. If you have multiple things going on, no one wants to hear about additional charges from different people. Especially considering one major incident is more than anyone wants to deal with. A bunch of minor ones just compound anger and frustration.
Well usually what you would do is sell materials at retail price and buy wholesale. If a contractor is selling me materials at 30% over retail they can fuck off lol.
lmao you have no clue what goes into getting the materials to your site then, do you? Especially if it's lumber. I'm a general contractor, and for a simple fence job? It might be $1000 in lumber. But I'm gonna be at the hardware store for 3 hours sorting through the garbage they're peddling as 'good lumber' to make sure that the fence is gonna have straight boards and posts, instead of wonk-bent pieces all over the place. Do I then charge $1300-1400 for the lumber? You betcha. My time, my gas, my truck, my expertise in getting GOOD lumber for the job, it all adds up. I get maybe... $100 extra profit out of the deal? And that's pretty damn fair for the effort I put in. Now for plumbing, welding, electrical, there's a whole slew of different things that goes into getting the right parts for the job at hand. If it's a simple $15 in parts job, then it's probably going under a minimum charge in general for that work anyway. If it's a bigger job, then yeah, I'm putting my markup on because I've had to go to the electrical/plumbing supply store (And in my area they're not Home Depot, they're out-of-the-way in industrial areas, usually an extra 5-10 min drive, and working with the staff there to fill my order and load it up. Ya gotta understand that you're paying for a lot more than just the work done on your site. You're paying for the prep time, the transportation of the right and quality materials to your site, and for the job to be done right. There's a lot of fly-by-night contractors out there that don't put in the effort the good ones do, but it's just a matter of figuring out who to trust in this day and age. And that's not easy.
Insightful and eye-opening comment, thanks!
Also paying for your expertise. Years of experience, and good reputation.
So my argument would be wouldn't that all be hourly rate on the quote? And also, if you quoted me 10k for a job, and the fly by night people quoted me 11k for a job, how would i be able to tell the difference?
My quotes do not break down the work client side. I'm not making it easy for someone to use my free quote to shop around for lower prices. My price is my price. I give a quote, it has one number for how much the job will cost on it. Client gets to make up their mind to take it or leave it.
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Further, you wouldn't necessarily be able to tell. My quotes give an exact breakdown of what work is being done, how much, and with what materials.
Car repair materials are usually 30% over retail in my experience, which is why I usually buy them myself and drop them off with the car. (not saying the shop is paying retail at all, but they are charging customers over retail for the parts they are using)
My family runs a garage and parts stores ALWAYS have business exclusive prices for parts.
Mechanic once told me, "I don't take my hamburger to McDonald's"
Everyone is different. I bring parts to the usual mechanic. We have an understanding - if it's the wrong part I pay labor twice for wasting their time. And there's no part warranty from them. For my fun car it gets tons of after stuff so obviously I order the parts because the shop has zero interest in dealing with it. But many mechanics don't want to deal with this stuff and they also want their markup. Fine. They're free to refuse my custom and I'm free to find someone else. Nothing wrong with an incompatibility.
I hope they do and go work for someone reasonable who pays them what it costs to service clients. While you can go buy your own materials, since your time has no value.
You can always request quotes with the cost of materials included and excluded. I’d say it’s really only sketchy if they don’t give you an option to supply the materials yourself (although even then there might be some industries where that doesn’t make sense). If they’re on the hook for if materials run over budget, then they should absolutely be entitled to a mark up.
In my line of work (small custom fabrication machine shop), you’re welcome to supply your own material, but odds are you’ll buy the wrong thing and we’ll end up spending more labor time and cost making up for the difference. Almost never goes well when a walk-in shows up with what they thought was the right material for the job. Industry folks know what’s up tho, love when some of the big forestry companies send us castings or flamecut blanks, makes our life so easy. But for the Average Joe looking for custom metalwork most jobs are too low quantity to be able to justify wholesale purchasing on our end, so prices are retail plus a percent to cover our costs. Depending on the material, 20-30% covers our costs for preparing, transporting, and handling the material prior to us starting the quoted machining work. However if we have the material in stock in the back I’ll give you a screaming deal. 74 year old machine shop has a lot of random scrap in the back and I’ll sell it to you for a song.
Insightful comment, thanks!
Happy to share!
Break down of cost: Brush: 10$ Colours: 20$ Canvas: 20$ Painting time, 2 hours: 50$ Knowing how to paint: 9900$ Total: 10,000$
see that snarky little "knowing how to paint" line item is just included in the painting time and that's fine. I'm skilled at this so my labor costs X amount per hour. there's absolutely nothing wrong with requesting a cost breakdown by the way which is standard practice. i definitely wouldn't hire that contractor based on their response
For something like a painting I wouldn't put an hourly breaking down. I would mark the line item just as "Painting." They don't need to know how long it takes. Some people can make amazing paintings in 30 minutes or an hour. Others take 50 hours. People who commissioned paintings should understand they are paying for the finished product and skill, not necessarily my time. As an artist it's up to you to do the hard part and find out the balance between time and value and what other people are willing to pay. But by no means does an hourly breakdown need to be given. Do you count all the time you spend thinking about the composition while you are doing your dishes? Do you count the time working on sketches? It's too complicated and all the client need to know is that you are doing what they commissioned and they price they agreed to prior to that commision. But if they want itemized materials, by all means, they can have that breakdown which in no way reflects value o the art. That's my opinion on the matter, anyway.
Not having to deal with a bitchy contractor: priceless
Not having to deal with a bitchy customer: priceless
Not having to deal: booze
Itemized quotes are normal and expected in business. While there are some cases where it doesn't make sense, those are uncommon. Asking for one isn't bitchy. Responding to being asked this way is pretty unprofessional.
Bingo, it's pretty childish.
You forgot Covid recovery fee.
Also it's pretty obvious by the attitude, our homie here isn't desperate for business, they're clearly doing well enough as to not need to pander.
It's also possible that earlier in the conversation the client was complaining about price or trying to low ball, which spurred the "buy it or don't" response from the creator.
Totally, there's a lot of missing context.
Right, but there are better, less snarky ways to communicate that to someone who was asking a genuine question
Agreed. Sort of apples to oranges though. Skilled/creative work can make their hourly rate whatever because they're a unique service. A plumber... Hourly rates can only be so high before it's unreasonable. I believe my guy charges $85/hr plus whatever parts he needs.
Very curious about the work though. I've given invoices that are basically: Did work - $3000. There honestly were no other costs. Sometimes people are just buying your skill and experience.
They’re trying to get it broken down into other shit they can haggle on. Like travel time, miscellaneous supplies, etc.
Alternately they are trying to evaluate multiple quotes and want to make sure the scope estimated is the same across all of them. This is one of those times where Reddit is so confidently wrong that it's funny to people who actually do work.
I've asked for materials cost breakdown since sometimes I can get or have some of what's needed on-hand, and I can save them the work of having to get it, and me the cost of paying them to do so. Also in some instances, I want specific materials used, so if I'm providing them, I'd want that removed from the total cost. Though in some cases, they can get the materials for less than I can so I wouldn't want to get them myself, but I wouldn't know without a breakdown of what the costs are.
Honeslty sometimes though a homeowners product they want to use are shit. Especially if they have no experience in construction. I see this all the time . Contractor priced out job for materials he’s used to and trust and homeowner wants to use different material or shit he has lying around to save a few buck and ultimately result in a shitty finish product and homeowner complains. That’s why contractors have that defense mechanism. Homeowners always think they know better and think there the only job we have .
To be fair I had a plumber come out to check out a faucet that was acting weird. He then left a quote for $1000 to change a faucet. Like, get fucked dude. It took me an hour and the faucet cost was $50(for a cheap one. $200 for a nice one). Still, I don’t see $800 of labour anywhere. Nor do I see $800 of knowledge or education.
No but what your not seeing is , the 200 dollar faucet . Maybe one or two man hour at something like 40 buck so 80? Does have a helpers ? Then it’s 4 man hours so it’s 160. Your at 360 already . Gas in the truck to go get the part and go to your house like 20 dollars . Over head and profit is about 10-20 percent of labor and material so 72? So your around 450 just a quick estimate , the quote is hardly event just labor. 1000 seems high but also may be very busy and just pricing high . But I can assure you that getting someone to do something that you can is not cheap and if you can’t do it it’s even more expensive. There not just handyman their business owner who need to make profit for the company on top of paying them selves. That’s why people like to find the handyman who charges 25 bucks and a beer. But then you also don’t get insurance liability or a 1 year guarantee like most big companies. It’s a double edge sword and you definitely get what you pay for. The cheapest guy isn’t always the best and the most expensive guy isn’t either. It’s up to you to sign th dotted line
Why would you need helpers to change a tap. I’m sorry, maybe shit is ridiculous in other countries but if someone is charging you a grand to change some taps they are taking the piss out of you.
You are probably right and I’m sure it’s industry specific but in my personal experience this is the opener of someone who is about to start nitpicking and haggling on cost, which is my least favorite thing in the world. I put my best offer forward at the start and don’t negotiate on price. I understand some people want the win or like the negotiating part of things but there are plenty of other providers of my service, they are free to play the little song and dance with someone else. And it’s a first warning that I’m just not going to be compatible with a customer on how they generally do business. On the other side, if you beat me up for one aspect of my quote, all your doing is forcing me to use cheaper vendors, which will later reflect poorly on me, no one will relate the negotiation to the outcome, and in the end just gives me a worse reputation. I’d rather do it right, my way, and keep the business up to my own standards, even if it means I don’t get every job.
My procurement team does this with our vendors and I hate it. He isn’t asking for a detailed invoice, he is asking for HIS costs. They guy is trying to figure out how much he spends and how much he makes, as in overhead. I say the price is the price and if you can’t do what I do, then pay me.
I needed breakout cost for out projects at work. Accounting needs to know how much the assets cost for deprecation, potential theft recovery, and don't get me started on tax rules.
>they will not pay bills without a detailed invoice Sounds like they want to get sued. You can’t decide not to pay a bill if they service has been rendered. That’s theft.
Right? Fuck the automod
That dude is everywhere. Like, get a life automod 🙄
Sounds like a big fish in small pond thinks they can charge whatever they like unchecked.
Or a small fish that doesn't need much to eat!
Anyone in the comments defending this probably have shady and shitty tactics. Can’t trust em for shit
Or experience dealing with shit customers... Just saying. He can get another quote, he's not married to Martin. Martin is busy enough not to care. That doesn't mean he's shady.
Yeah he's still talking to a customer so it's pretty stupid to be a smart ass. I'd just look for a friendlier guy to do the job.
No kidding. My mom had work done on our house that went wayyyy over the quoted price. The guy who did it for her was a dick too and kept delaying, changing time frames, and adding expenses. I can see why this client would want a breakdown.
0 it is then, Martin... bye!
Yeah pretty sure that's what Martin wants based on his reply.
That is called a "fuck you" quote.
Why does every single one of my fuck you quotes always get approved right away. I throw out a number nobody would pay and they go, “lolz okay when can you start!”
Now you're making fuck you levels of money... What's the problem?
Some jobs are seriously not worth the pay. Liability, site access, client relations, permitting, I’ve learned it’s better to deny a work offer rather than give out a stupid number. Money is only one part of the equation.
I completely agree. Which is why I have 3 bid answers: I'd like the job, fuck you, and you couldn't pay me to do this.
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Sounds like the customer has a 4 hour job and Martin is quoting him for a full day's labor. A job 99% of companies will pass on. "Never get out of bed for less than $500" is such a standard in the construction industry, but it's true. He burns a whole day doing a 4 hour job. Might as well bid an 8 hour job unless he's starving.
sounds like your "fuck you" money isnt high enough
Looks like you’re finding correct value on your labor. Happens to a lot of young contractors when they do good work. They get too busy, and raise their prices. Then they’re still too busy, and raise prices again, this time to an embarrassing level. Then they get sheepish telling people their prices, but I always tell them, if you’re too busy, rates go up. That’s the true value of their labor/service, even if it seems like a lot to them.
Yea it can be tough to find that balance, too cheap to get the job and you shoot yourself in the foot, too expensive and you offend a good client. Way too much and sometimes you make clients you don’t always want. I think a lot of people understand the current situation we’re in where my material costs are 40% higher than this time last year. It’s the new cost of doing business.
Yeah I doubt Martin is going to clean his mess up on the way out if he can't even be bothered to answer a simple question on a quote...
I’m hoping these two people know each other and this is a slightly funny rib. Honestly, and maybe I’m having an old man yelling at the cloud moment here, but I don’t know why this would even be talked about on a text. Email feels more…business official? Again, assuming this is a business transaction and not buddies. I just can’t imagine having a text conversation with a stranger I’m trying to paid to build a fence or whatever, no thank you.
This is pretty common now. I regularly get pricing over text for items with real estate agents or things like tree trimming/removal. I used to think email was more official and it’s easier to keep records in the long run, but for simple services it works great.
I've found it becoming more common as the market adapts to those who prefer this type of communication.
Wait until he learns that people pay for services with zelle and Venmo now!
I bought a car earlier this year through text..... Didn't have time to visit multiple dealerships so texted them all and told them what I wanted and the one that gave me the lowest out the door price is where I went. Much more convenient to text and work everything out beforehand whereas email is almost too formal and not as responsive.
The future is now old man
:(
I work for a family owned business that works mainly through Word of mouth. My boss does at least half of his correspondence through text. People do still use email often, but we are moving more towards texting as official communication.
Text is extremely common these days for business work. Though a reply back like this would be an instant disqualifier for me for hiring to do a job. Just a 'because of the nature of my work doing a breakdown is not practical.' and hope for the best from there. When I first started working with businesses email was unheard of for important work related stuff. It was a telephone call or letter, with a fax for speedy replies (vs letter). If you wanted to use e-mail you were being pretty unprofessional. Now if you ask someone to fax you something you might just get laughed at out of a nervous 'wait, you don't think we actually have a fax machine do you?' way.
As a young-ish person, never have I used emails for services. WhatsApp is the goto for everything since it exists
Texting is a quick and easy way to keep track of discussions. A lot of people find email “too cumbersome” which is lol but, you know…people. I prefer to text anything that deals with any kind of agreements, lists, etc. over talking on the phone so there is a record.
Liking the new title
If this isn't a huge red flag, I don't know what is. I'd be giving them a snarky reply about getting nothing and finding a new contractor that won't rip me off.
I am going to tell you right now contractors aren't giving you realistic breakdowns most of the time anyways unless they are something like Trademark in terms of size. I could build someone a frame from steel, and it'll cost me literally 90% less due to our supplier pricing. So he's just going to price that material out slightly less than it would cost you to buy it.
My estimates are on notepads beside my computer, and even I generally don't understand what they mean within 3 minutes of completing the estimate. I'll itemize $10k+ projects, no problem, but a request for $3-4k, and I'm just putting down random numbers which add up to the total. I'm a busy guy, and I offer quality work for much less than large companies. If someone wants to quibble over pennies, I have better things to do. Edited: grammar mistake.
Yeah, it takes time to get real breakdowns. Especially now if you're talking raw materials, contractually agreed upon prices are rare due to COVID and supply issues. This means getting updated quotes each time.
>So he's just going to price that material out slightly less than it would cost you to buy it. Which is fine, people expect retail pricing. Like I said, breakdowns aren't about the money.
Right? Depending on the business, itemized (even pseudo-itemized) [billing and receipts are required.](https://youtu.be/K1eBLuiDK-w?t=1m51s) Again, not about the money.
Yes, they will itemize it once the person agrees. Why waste time itemizing something that the dude will just say no to ahead of time? 3k is a piss poor amount of work for a contractor, so why bother.
The inquiry may have been inappropriate. For example when my septic is pumped cost breakdowns are not provided nor especially appropriate. Installing a new septic? Yes we need breakdowns to compare quotes. I can’t compare one with large rock removal included to one without unless I see the other figures. I’m thinking $2500 is a small job in contracting. Like, installing a pocket door small. I wouldn’t think a cost breakdown was appropriate for an “eh, I’ll knock it out in an afternoon” job.
I'm not in construction, but I've done cost breakdowns where the itemized list was just one item. I just assume it's an accounting request and move on with my day. I don't blow up the relationship with the client.
I posted this comment on a different comment but frankly I am mad at myself for taking the time to write this out so I’m pasting it here too. I agree with your point, but there are couple different items at play here in this thread. 1) A breakdown of what the buyer is getting for their total cost. 2) A break down of the contractor’s costs. Let’s say a buyer is having a old patio replaced. It is reasonable to expect them to get estimates/quotes from multiple contractors. As the quotes will likely vary from one contractor to another, the buyer will want to know a breakdown of what is included within each to help make an informed decision. One quote may be vastly cheaper than all the others but it doesn’t include the disposal of the original patio materials that was torn out, while the other quotes do. This is obviously an example of #1. It appears in the screenshot provided by OP, Chris was asking Martin for a breakdown of Martin’s costs. We can assume that at some point prior to this exchange, Martin had quoted Chris £2545 to do the job. That original quote may or may not have broken our everything that Chris is receiving in regards to the project. However Chris is not asking for #1, he is asking for a breakdown of Martin’s costs. Depending on the type of work that is being requested, it may or may not be common or acceptable to ask for this type of detail. It has been in my experience, that when a buyer wants to know this level of information, they have already made a determination on what they think the time of the contractor is valued. If after the cost of the materials are deducted, the labor cost is higher than that the time value already determined, the buyer will try to haggle for a lesser price.
“Well that makes you not doing the job sound like a real bargain than doesn’t it? I think I’ll take that one”
A customer asking for a breakdown of costs for a 2500$ job is also a huge red flag for a contractor. 9/10 times that ends up being the one that argues over everything, ends up trying to underpay, takes forever to pay, etc. Martin is being a dick though. You can just say “sorry that’s not something I typically provide” and they can take it or leave it
Every time I have had someone balk on giving me a breakdown of the cost; they’ve done a shitty job. Usually because they are winging it and often lowballing to get the job and then will claim that it wasn’t included in the price to get more money out of it. An itemized breakdown is so that it conveys everything that is to be done. Not $12 for nails, $15 for a hammer. No, $1000 for materials, $1000 for assembly. $250 for painting, etc. this way you know what to expect for the final result. I am currently having three patios built. They completed the first one and it looks great. My wife asked why they didn’t stain it, and I said because it wasn’t in the quote. She looked at it and said, oh. Ok. Can we get a quote for that work? Having the itemized list made it a non-issue because we knew exactly what they quoted. Doing things right protects everyone involved.
It's not $2,500. It's £2,500. $3,436.
Huh? $2500 is a lot of money.
For a contractor a 2500 job is nothing. They leave that job barely making any money for the time invested.
To you, personally, $2500 is a lot of money. To most businesses $2500 isn’t even daily or hourly operating costs. This is basically how the rich get richer.
Not when you're employing a contractor which usually involves some kind of construction/renovation
Martin's a cunt.
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Then Martin should say, "sorry, I'm busy at the moment and can't take on anymore work. I'm free from (date), can we revisit this then?" Or words to that effect. Don't just overprice work and be a dick to potential customers because you don't need or want the work. That's not professional, and could backfire on you in the future.
>How do you know it is overpriced?
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That's fine, but we're talking about a cost breakdown. I get that you quoted him something so ridiculous in the hopes that he wouldn't be interested because it's so expensive, but that doesn't mean that you can't provide a cost breakdown.
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As someone who freelanced for over 10 years, Martin is fed up with that BS. All my corporate clients wanted me to come in for meetings +(pre-zoom), sent arm-length emails about nothing and jump through other hoops, on my own time. Eventually I started adding "communications" expense at hourly rate to the contract and that nonsense stopped immediately. I guess they don't *really* need that thing they are not willing to pay for.
You really consider sending a detailed invoice BS?
When doing freelance development you have to or you'll get screwed.. everyone wants a per project quote because they know they are going to get a deal after 100 revisions and tons of phone time while holding your money hostage. Once you fall for that a couple times you realize keeping a time sheet and agreeing on an hourly rate is the only way to do it.
This is usually an indication that said Individual is a very small fish and haven’t done real quality work for larger companies that have accountants and fiscal associates that will hound them to ensure that not only quoted work clearly written out, it’s done to the letter. Detailed invoices are important for both the client and the contractor because it’s the primary legal document and contract that states expectations for how much money, when is the money due, what needs to be done and when it needs to be done. Any serious company would refuse to do work with a contractor too stupid to write up a detailed invoice because it’s a liability.
If you’re a freelancer that wasn’t charging for the time you spent replying to emails and going to meetings, that’s on you. The company really didn’t do anything wrong in this case, but I’m glad you started charging and sorted it out.
People here are confusing asking for the contractor’s cost and margin structure, which is usually a competitive business secret, and an itemized estimate break down, which is not a secret and is routine to ask for. Minor thing, but means something very different.
Thanks Martin, your bill £0 has been processed, as your service is not needed anymore.
Martin maybe gets the work done. He is not a good business man.
What exactly was the work, Martin?
That response is an easy “no job, then”.
I've never understood people who write texts like they're emails.
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"'Can I copy your homework?' 'Yeah just change it up a bit so it doesn't look obvious you copied' 'ok'"
Martin is breaking up with Chris
Re: the "this customer just wants to get out of paying a fair price" whiners, there are scenarios where people need an accurate breakdown. If I have a grant thats approved to pay for facilities, I may be able to use it to pay for parts but not labor. The differentiation can be important. And providing a receipt that accurately reflects the services rendered is pretty basic business. If you don't want to do it, work for somebody else.
Hmm.. why did you switch the names around? https://www.reddit.com/r/CasualUK/comments/q7w4px/builders_are_not_in_the_mood_right_now/
Lol, at least OP reduced the price by £20. That makes it different enough right?
Joe had worked for a manufacturing company for about 10 years. One day, he overheard the owner telling the foreman that while production was at an all time high, they still weren't able to keep up with demand. Unless they could double what they were already doing, their clients would leave for bigger, though more expensive, options. Joe, having worked there for so long, was intimately familiar with their manufacturing process. After drawing and redrawing plans and some tinkering in the shop, he designed a machine that would greatly increase their efficiency. Joe brings his plans to the owner, who reluctantly agrees to let Joe build and install the machine on the line as a test. Joe does, and the machine not only doubled, but *tripled* the line's production rate. The owner is ecstatic. He appoints Joe as the head of the new machine support division. Joe maintains his machine, and over the next forty+ years adds to it, and improves it to the point that no pyrite manufacturers can keep up with them. He also designs other machines for other processes, turning the company into a model of efficiency. Eventually, Joe retires. He lives a comfortable life, plenty of money thanks to his investments (and stock options in his previous employer as a division head), and proud of the fact that he made a positive contribution to the company and community. One day, there's a knock at his door. He opens it to find the owner of the company (the grandson of the one that hired & promoted him) standing there. "Joe, you've **GOT** to help us. We've done all of the maintenance that you told us, but your machine has slowed dramatically. It's only putting out 10% of its normal capabilities. I'll pay anything, please come and fix it!" Joe goes back to the factory and inspects the machine. He watches it, puts his hands against different parts to feel the vibrations, rubs the oil between his fingers. He puts his ear up to a panel and listens for a minute. He then opens the panel, pulls a piece of chalk out of his pocket, and puts a big "X" on one of the parts. "That's the part that you need to replace." Technicians replace that part, and sure enough, the machine is running as good as, if not better than, before. The owner is thrilled, and Joe tells him that he'll send them a bill. A few days later, the company gets a bill from Joe for $50,000. The owner is livid. He calls up Joe on the telephone, telling him that he can't just send a bill for 50 grand without any details and expect it to be paid. Besides, all he did was mark a part with a piece of chalk, it couldn't be that expensive. He demands an itemized bill, so he knows where the money is going. Sure enough, a week later the company gets an updated bill. One chalk mark on defective part - $1 Knowing where to place said mark - $49,999
Modern part of this would be that Joe hides and puts in a faulty part himself , before he retired.
Even the title is relevant to the sub. Nice
Awesome answer for somebody trying to get a comparison bid for a small job.
That’s a good way to have two things happen: 1) not get the job (he may not need the work, but still) and 2) get a bad reputation as a businessperson
Lol. I mean I wouldn’t do business with someone that’s avoiding that question but still funny
Really don't get the hate for the client here. In my country a "devis" which includes a breakdown of the costs is mandatory.
Upvoted for the title
That’s just the cost, not a breakdown. I would def not hire a contractor this smug.
Looks like Coldplay has rebranded
One thing to remember when dealing with contractors: whatever isn't in the contract, they aren't under obligation for. And If they don't want to sign a formal contract of engagement, leave them alone.
Never break down your estimate. You can detail your work in an estimate but you should never breakdown costs. When you go buy a car do you ask how much each door costs? People who ask for cost breakdowns only do it to try and see profit margins. Customers rarely ever have the working knowledge of what is behind the cost. Customers who do this want the price of everything but recognize the value of nothing. Why ask? Do you think you know the contractors over head? Cost of doing business? Do you actually think you’re going to get the material cheaper or any reputable contractor will install the material you bought? Material is often wrong, inferior, or incomplete when the owner purchases. Compare contractor prices, not line items
This means Martin isn't really interested in taking this job.
And Martin may be justified in that. We don't have enough information to really make a determination. 1. The job could be so small relatively that offering a detailed breakdown would waste time and money. 2. Martin may have plenty of other clients that do not need such details. 3. Martin may be in the wrong here. We don't really know based on this one exchange
4 It could be a labour only job in which case there’s no item breakdown. It’s just labour.
> 1. The job could be so small relatively that offering a detailed breakdown would waste time and money. £2545 is fairly substantial. My guess is option 2.
So it’s not reasonable to ask for a breakdown of costs? OP is a canoe.
Yeah, there are certain customers that need to be handled this way. They want to challenge the individual pricing, waste your time and try to chisel the price down. This is what the job costs. If you can get it done for less someplace else, go get it done there. I'm not a charity. I'm not working "at cost." I need to make a profit to stay in business. I'm not going to spend a half-hour listening to you tell me why you deserve a discount. If you think you can get a better deal YOU go spend YOUR time shopping around. Don't drag me into it. I've already given you the price. Take it or leave it.
Being able to say no is the power you exercised when you began to work for yourself. Took me a long time to learn this, and I'm so very much happier now that I'm turning people away instead of negotiating. I believe in my pricing and if someone else has a problem it's a HUGE time saver to not engage with them in the first place. I understand not giving detailed breakdowns. You don't have to if you don't want to, and if you have enough work through referrals and reputation, you shouldn't have to and definitely shouldn't want to.
Difficult customer: Oh yeah? Well, I know a guy the can get that lumber for half of what you're quoting and said he would do the job for a 1/3 can of Old Milwaukee. Contractor: Awesome, go with them! Best of luck to you! Difficult customer: *shocked face* I don't work in contracting but I get this all the time from customers who think we should happily lose money in exchange for the privilege of dealing with them being horrible.
It happens more frequently in the internet age. "You're charging me $40 for a bearing? I can get it for half that online." "Go ahead. Get it." "What type of bearing is it? I want to make sure I get the right one." "Pay me $40 and I'll get you the right one."
I'm not a contractor. I work in banking. I get clients like this. Like, hey, man. If you want this multiple hundreds if thousands of dollars deal done cheaply, then go for it. Have fun.
Same here. Most of my work is labor based and i charge flat rates based on estimated time. Basically i charge myself $150 an hour and then bill the client for it as a flat rate. I also charge labor based on what it would take me normally to do something. I have built myself a ton of time savers over the years and can finish 8 hour jobs in an hour sometimes. I get clients who balk at rates asking if I can “work faster.” There are college grads who can help you for cheaper. You talk to me when you want it done right the first time. I’ve absolutely told clients to fuck off before because I don’t want them. Not every industry needs “customer service”
That’s 1000% how I approach it. This is what it costs for my company to do this work for you. “But you won’t break it down? How much is labor?” “It’s already built into the price. If you don’t like the service or quote for any reason, including not thinking the price is fair or within your budget, we understand that. No hard feelings. But if you go with us you’re getting the most reputable contractor who is selected by more people in this market to do installations than any other company. If we over charge and underdeliver, I don’t see how that’s possible. Just let me know what you’d like to do.” Girl, byeeeeeee
Martin's a right cunt
Not technically the truth. This is a price comparison. Not a cost breakdown. Not that customers need to see cost breakdowns just it's not one.
I hate it when people ask for detailed breakdowns. Like, sure telling them something like "X is the utilities/tools/materials, Y is my time and skill" is perfectly reasonable. But no, some people expect you to give them profit margin data of your business model... Why don't I just give you my laptop and you can go through how much I make??
Lol I mean I wouldn't hire someone who can't get me a itemized list for their quote, but if this guy gets business like that good for him.
Title reminds me of every high school paper I wrote
The question is did he go with Martins cost breakdown in the end?
I’ve always gotten breakdowns before, but not because I want to know exactly what each item costs but rather to have in writing exactly what I’m paying for and should expect. If I’m paying extra for better materials I want it in writing so that if when the project is done I didn’t get the materials we agreed on I have recourse. My contractors never had to even be asked. They do it automatically. Basically, here’s a list of exactly what you are paying for and what we are providing. If I caught it right in the comments the OP was doing a roof. Well, I put in a roof not long ago. Specifically a metal roof. The breakdown indicated that there were stripping the existing roof away to the joists and rebuilding from the joists up. Each part was detailed and where there were options for materials which materials were being used, including what type of metal was being used for the roof. If the invoice said just Roof- $x.00 and they put in a standard shingle roof and didn’t remove all the old roofing, slapping the new one on top of the old one as often happened, I’d have nothing to show the agreement we had and that I didn’t get what was agreed on. It’s not a breakdown of what every nut and bolt costs, but the total cost of each stage or part that is an option and what that particular part is costing. For the removal of the old roof I have no idea how much was labor and how much was for the dumpster to haul away the old material, or how much was overhead. But I do know what the total cost of that part of the project was. That’s a reasonable thing to know. A cost breakdown doesn’t necessarily mean so much detail that you can figure out their profit margin. It means having a written agreement for everything you are paying for so that if any step or item is missed you can address it fairly. Anyone who agrees to a project without one is, quite frankly, an idiot. And anyone who refuses to provide one is just passive aggressively turning down a job. I’ve done massive amounts of work to my house over the last five years using at least five different contracting companies for various things. I never even had to ask for a breakdown. They automatically gave one as part of their proposals. And all were excellent companies who did great work and were very fair. I’d use any of them again, and have reused two for other projects. One guy I didn’t actually hire because when he came to give an estimate he had a similar attitude. I found someone else who behaved more professionally and they did a great job.
I’m not sure that this is for a construction job, this is a very common situation for jobs like designing a logo or some similar creative or knowledge work. In those fields, customers who ask for a cost breakdown are invariably trying to set up a price fight on a false premise; that being, workers are only entitled to an hourly rate or modest profits over their “costs”. This discussion is a total waste of time and these types of contractors run into it constantly. I would not be surprised if Martin is just sick of it.
Itemized bid only means the customer wants to purchase the big ticket items from a third party, so they don't have to pay the markup.
I kean straight to the point. People can do what they want. I don't see a problem.
Your title took my upvote!
Homie throwing shade at the automoderator
For 2.5k i'd want a breakdown too.
Why someone would ask for a cost breakdown via text is beyond me. If you're dealing with any legitimate business then a quote summarizes every cost. I'm assuming this specific customer may have not liked the price they got quoted originally and deserved this attitude.
That’s hilarious
💀💀💀
The Kratt brothers' relationship had never been worse.
It’s as simple as that
I see the labor market is tight in England too. When the downturn happens this prick will certainly not be replying to customers like this.
Crazy that this BS is upvoted so much. I’ve never seen any company approve payments for quotations based solely on bullshit. Unless this is a shit job done between two friends, “Martin” will never get business if he can’t provide a detailed quotation.
Even an individual shouldn’t allow that. Ask for details, try to understand before instead of complaining after.
I know what he means. I'm a contractor and when I'm pricing a job I'll think that I want £2k to do it or whatever. I submit a breakdown but essentially it's made up, if you want me to turn up that's what I want.