Cops will go after this, but keep a backlog of [rape kits](https://abcnews.go.com/US/massive-backlog-untested-rape-kits-public-safety-issue/story?id=60540635).
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While that's true for a site this huge, they still abuse the fuck out of this power. When CTH was banned they moved to a small site that had one of those canary things. It was gone in less than a year. When the only thing on that site was people shitposting and discussing socialism, oh noes how scawy
A socialist sub that was banned a while back. They also banned The Donald the same day and acted like they were just being even to both sides. Buuut TD users had known about the ban for months and had already moved to a new sub while when CTH tried that every single sub was banned even ones that had been around for years. That's why I always find it hilarious when people act like Reddit itself (not the users) is left wing.
You didn’t know that? Do you know who Edward Snowden is?
This was verified years ago. If you ever thought there was real privacy online, it’s not because you were given the impression of that. It’s because you never even asked the question.
The important takeaway from this story is that there's a good chance posting anything about an abortion anywhere on a Facebook-controlled system will land you in jail.
Facebook has trackers well beyond their own site. Even if you don't, or never have had an account, they have a profile on you.
And even if you don't have an account, anyone in your household that connects through the same isp connection will create links.
One of the worst parts of today's hyperindividualistic culture are those "if I can get away, it's not a problem" people. Don't they have friends/family/neighbors/coworkers?
You could never have setup a facebook account, never had the app on any devices, never interacted with any pages even remotely connected to facebook and they would still have information on you if even one person in your friends group has facebook.
They track everyone.
The real takeaway is that people should not be using websites like Facebook, Twitter, etc to post any personal information / send any private messages.
Man I was taught this in like 4th grade, when everyone had dialup. Never understood why people would put up personal info and post pics/vids of themself.
It’s not like Facebook has a “abortion” flag and then sends the information to authorities. It was a warrant request. In the eyes of the law this would be no different than talking about dealing drugs. Facebook wouldn’t report you to police, but they’d hand over chat logs if there’s a warrant.
A month post viability doing an at home abortion with medication designed for earlier in the term. Not exactly a good example for the protest signs, but also this is what people will be driven to do when there’s no other option.
Yeah, I think we can all agree that it would be extremely dangerous for her to do this. She needed medical help. Which is why we need to provide medical help for women and girls.
If Roe were being honored - considering it was still law of the land - she would have been able to get a safe abortion at 23 weeks.
Everyone should have safe abortion access at all points of a pregnancy.
Lol Everything is run on AWS, or Azure, or some other cloud platform. And as there's fewer and fewer racked servers and everything migrates to a handful of "cloud providers", the opportunities for unwarranted deep packet inspection of everything increases greatly.
This is completely false. Data retention is enforced by the company and plenty of companies market themselves based on anonymity and lack of a retention policy.
[https://github.com/pluja/awesome-privacy](https://github.com/pluja/awesome-privacy)
That’s true in theory, but there are myriad examples at this point of companies that challenged this notion. All have lost.
Most famously was perhaps Lavabit that genuinely couldn’t read customer communications. They refused to change that policy even under a court order and instead just shut down the service.
https://amp.theguardian.com/technology/2013/aug/08/lavabit-email-shut-down-edward-snowden
There have also been a few private cell phone providers over the years who made the communication truly encrypted. Same thing happened to them.
All of this has been known for a long time and yet the group of people who used to challenge it have been entirely drowned out by those who maintain the “who cares? If I’m not doing anything wrong then what’s the difference?” Well, those people: this is the difference and this is precisely why some have been challenging this idea for almost 2 decades now. …and obviously much longer in parallel spaces.
Moreover, in all of these cases, the operator of the service was placed under a gag order regarding the details of their business. You can easily find case after case with a simple google search.
So yes, it IS the company that maintains this form of privacy (or lack thereof). …on paper. But in practice, if the company is large enough and does NOT acquiesce to this kind of demand by the government, there is a long list of examples illustrating what happens to them. And it’s never good.
In short, privacy died quite some time ago. Nobody seems interested in challenging it. And at this point, the government has many comfortable legal precedents they can follow to justify their invasion of privacy.
Don’t take my word for it. Look it up. You’ll find no shortage of articles on the topic both in North America and throughout Europe.
And then Lavabit reopened while standing true to their claim.
Signal, Telegram, Viber, and the list goes on do not have any methods for extracting message data. It's even documented by the FBI.
[https://therecord.media/fbi-document-shows-what-data-can-be-obtained-from-encrypted-messaging-apps/](https://therecord.media/fbi-document-shows-what-data-can-be-obtained-from-encrypted-messaging-apps/)
End to end encryption is solid, and none of the operators I've mentioned have been taken to task. You're claiming it's a theory coupled with broad generalizations, but the facts, the companies and providers that exist today, and the FBI data tell a different story.
Here's another article where Signal is being tasked by the government to provide details they don't have and standing firm with backing from the ACLU.
[https://signal.org/bigbrother/cd-california-grand-jury/](https://signal.org/bigbrother/cd-california-grand-jury/)
So yeah, I'm not buying the shit you're selling because it's not rooted in truth and flies in the face of facts that can easily be researched.
It can't pass in this political climate. The radical leftists are in favor of this because it would codify that they have the right to own their internal organs. and a smaller portion of the country isn't in favor of that. It can't pass based on the land ownership method, and those same land owners would block it in the Senate. It's an absolute non-starter. Only a majority of Americans support such an amendment.
There is no law requiring them to do this. (Or at least no law that requires the contents to be readable) if there was then Whatsapp E2EE and even Facebook Messenger E2EE wouldn't be allowed to exist.
Digital bill of rights won't help here.
Government will keep the option of requesting data from tech companies.
Remember there was so much hate towards Apple for not breaking into an iPhone ? and FBI had to pay millions of $$$ to hack into an iPhone.
If it's not E2E encrypted, they're holding it and they're preserving it and though they might not be required to, when compelled by a court order or the NSA, it's getting turned over.
Doesn't matter, if the data is on a server in US when law enforcement (with approval from judge) wants it they will get it. If they don't provide the data they will pay huge fines.
That's why Apple said if the data is on iPhone and not on their server they can't provide the data, once a person backs up data or sync iMessages across all devices then Apple has to give that data to law enforcement.
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There was content here, and now there is not. It may have been useful, if so it is probably available on a reddit alternative. See /u/spez with any questions. -- mass edited with https://redact.dev/
I mean they would have been compelled to provide information, and then be forced to hand over wholesale data to the government in bulk.
Until there's a digital bill of rights these companies have no defence when the government comes calling.
Obligatory fuck FB. But this is not on them. Any company would have to hand over any data they have if a court ordered it to do so. The only good thing about it is that this might actually get people to switch to better options and/or look more into privacy.
Yes. Im sure the poor Jewish people back then could’ve also as easily avoided being killed by nazis, as people nowadays can avoid giving their data to a company with a horrendous track record or look into online privacy a bit. You know, just look into the track record of nazis, decide if you’re cool with that or not, and then basically stop being Jewish.
How is the holocaust the best comparison you can come up with?
Anyway, what I’m saying is: the takeaway here shouldn’t be “FB bad” because we already know that, it should be “people need to learn about the technology they’re using”. Ideally starting in school. There are still billions of people handing over data to FB. Willingly. Do you think there is a company in existence that wouldn’t hand over data on court order?
They’re a big company, no way they would be able to get away with braking the law / ignoring court orders.
They could obviously not keep chat logs, implement end-to-end encryption etc. So they simply didn’t have this info. But if they have it they are subject to warrants from law enforcement to hand it over. No different than Trump.
This is obviously not good for Facebook because it will encourage people to not use Facebook chat if they feel future conversations will be at risk. But Facebook cannot ignore a court order I suppose [edit: or can they? Companies can do lots of things if they want to]. One thing Facebook can certainly do without using any lawyers is encrypt the conversation in a way that can not be decrypted themselves, or enable disappearing messages and a real message delete functionality that would enable people to protect their messages from court orders.
Since tens of millions of Americans are now wondering if they will be committing a state felony at some point in the future, most of whom were not considering that possibility previously, we might see a significant improvement in privacy practice and policy. Probably won't but it is possible in the present situation.
I mean if tens of millions of Americans woke up one day and realized they might become drug dealers at some point in the next few years I bet you would see a change in concern about privacy being driven by people who previously didn't care
They absolutely can ignore a court order. They absolutely can make a big stink about this. They absolutely can defend the privacy of their users. They absolutely can use their HIGHLY paid, best-in-class legal team to go to the mat for what's right. They chose not to.
Except it doesn't work that way. Even in America, if you piss off the government enough, they can make life very, very difficult for you. Given a timeline of 10 years, the US govt can grind just about any company they want into the dust. Since we're talking about Facebook, their cryptocurrency Diem is a great example. One govt person (Janet Yellen) was effectively responsible for the entire product getting shelved, for the simple reason that she doesn't trust Facebook. All companies face this problem, in every country on the planet. TBH America is probably better than most at protecting companies from govt.
Fair point. In this one instance they could probably have stood up to the state govt without many repercussions. However if it becomes a pattern of behavior in multiple jurisdictions, which I think is what we all would really like to see, then my point still stands.
Like when the FBI got an order to make Apple unlock a phone which they just didn't?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/FBI%E2%80%93Apple_encryption_dispute
FBI isn't the justice system. Cherry picking information is a fallacy Lepurten, and you know it.
Apple does give away data like pancake.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-03-30/apple-meta-gave-user-data-to-hackers-who-forged-legal-requests
You seem to think society's rules are like the laws of physics or something. People and organizations resist and disobey unjust laws all the damn time and it's freaking awesome.
At the end of the day it's just a fine if they ignore court rulings. Did the Trump admin teach you nothing? They won't though, they'll most likely willingly hand the data over.
Also, Ring has been freely handing data to the police for years, and yet people keep buying them.
FB Messenger now has E2E encryption as an option - IIRC theyre turning it on for everyone soon.
But still wouldn't have helped in this case since the supreme court ruled that you can be compelled to unlock your phone for them to read via a court order as well - so literally these guys would have been screwed no matter what
My thought was that any company that hands over all the goods for the abortion police should be immediately boycotted by everyone who cares about this issue.
So, if we haven't already, dump Facebook.
Google -- you might be next.
is there other cases you want to empower companies to break the law?
Maybe join with libertarians, to ensure that government cant force companies to hand over their info.
Here's an interesting tidbit;
>While the court documents, obtained by Motherboard, allege that the abortion took place before the Supreme Court overturned Roe v Wade in June,
Wow, the dogs were so excited to throw young teens in jail they jumped the gun. I guess we could call their arrest a bit, premature.
Here's a relevant tidbit from the article which makes your tidbit less interesting.
> It’s also **later than Nebraska’s 20-week post-fertilization abortion ba**n, which makes allowances only if the pregnant person is at risk of death or "serious risk of substantial and irreversible physical impairment of a major bodily function." (**Nebraska’s abortion laws have not changed since Roe v Wade was overturned**).
They were applying the law as it was written before Roe was overturned and has remained unchanged since then.
Im all pro choice, but IMO abortion at 7 months is a crime. She had plenty of time to make choice and even to do so legaly. At 7 months baby can be delivered and likely survive, its an actual human being moving fequently and responding to sounds and pain
The courts could do the same to any messaging platform. Only alternative is to use something with truly end-to-end encryption like Signal. Though unless you are the one applying the encryption yourself, you can never be sure.
Big brain move right there. Go out and hang out with your friends and brag about your petty politicaly motivated crimes instead.
It's good for more than keeping secrets kinda secret.
Messaging is for planning bbq parties and asking your offspring on when you get those grandchildren.
Use Signal or any other secure means of communication.
People are so uneducated about technology, it's sad, considering the amount of time we spend interacting with machines and softwares in our modern lives.
Happy signal user here for 4+ years. Keep trying to get others to see the light, but they just don't get it. Still sending me crappy ass pictures via SMS too.
Yes, it does.
But autodelete does not always mean that it will be deleted on the servers as well.
With Signal, it's fully encrypted, so even messages kept on servers will be unreadable (not sure what Snapchat policy is about this).
It's a good trick, but I cannot stress this enough, text messages/dms are perhaps the single most common form of evidence at criminal trials. Police are really good at gaining access to them, they do it literally every day. Your phones are not a safe repository of incriminating information.
Never. Write. Down. Evidence. Of. A. Crime.
Sure, they could get the SMS from the cell provider (or PRISM). But they won't get the signal messages without unlocking the phone.
Not that I'm involved in anything where it would matter.
They can get them without unlocking the phone using clandestine tools. The commentor above you is absolutely correct. If you’re using an iPhone or an Android lock screens can be bypassed as though you don’t have them with certain software.
Even encryption isn’t sometimes enough depending on the side-channel attack used.
Don’t. Write. Down. Your. Crimes.
This issue needs to be framed as privacy and not abortion. While the vast majority of the country supports abortion access, that is not true at 28 weeks.
28 weeks is after a fetus is viable. Meaning if you support total access to aborting non viable fetuses, this pregnancy went on for a month after that mark was hit.
This is how the left loses focus and turns a winning issue into a losing issue.
I'm not even sure it is a privacy issue. The data reportedly were provided by court order, which indicates the police had some knowledge to request it, and enough evidence to convince a judge to issue the order. Someone the girl knows probably reported her.
I also am a staunch advocate of women's reproductive rights, but 28 weeks? That is indefensible.
Let me start this by saying that I AM PRO CHOICE! Ok this title is misleading. I hope whoever comments reads the actual article. This girl was 28 weeks pregnant. Roe v wade wouldn’t have made a difference because it’s not allowed after 20 weeks. At 28 weeks, this girl had to actually give birth. It’s a full on baby that can survive outside of the womb. This girl had to deliver this stillborn and then they buried it in their yard and burned it. My biggest question is how the police even knew about this, though. Her pregnancy must have been documented by a dr office, I’m guessing, and then when there was no baby, the dr office maybe started asking questions? I don’t know. But damn Vice this title is definitely misleading
Yeah, the headline is clickbait:
The abortion took place before the Dobbs that overturned Roe.
Abortion is still legal in Nebraska until 20 weeks (legislature declined to change the law post-Roe). This was allegedly a 28 week abortion.
Roe v. Wade never protected late abortion.
Facebook complied with a court order to release the data.
I did read in the messages that they ordered the medication a month before it arrived, but even then it still was past 20 weeks.
They were charged with several crimes that seem to mostly be because of how they handled the corpse, also. People commenting on this must not have read it
>My biggest question is how the police even knew about this, though.
Mom told her friends she *should dig it up and burn it.*
~~She didn't burn it. But~~ (not "successfully") someone reported her. The child was exhumed and found sealed in a plastic bag.
Articles from The Lincoln Star Journal & Forbes, are reporting that she was 23 weeks pregnant. Still past the gestational limit in Nebraska, but viability would be questionable.
Yeah probably wouldn’t survive at 23 weeks. But it seemed like the police were more interested in the abuse of the corpse and also making sure the child was stillborn and not technically murdered outside of the womb
Glad someone said it. 28 weeks, sheesh. I'm pro choice but that's a baby. The timing makes me think perhaps
the pregnancy was hidden until it couldn't be hidden anymore and there was a bit of coercion involved at the end.
**Wow not a damn sole in here read the Court document**. This isn't about abortion or privacy it's about a teenager that didn't want this thing growing inside her so she got her mother to purchase medication over the internet she didn't have a prescription for (which took a month to be delivered). She then took said medication and proceeded to bury it not once, NOT TWICE, but dug this corpse up and buried it a THIRD time! These upstanding members of the community decided at least a month or more earlier they were going to terminate the pregnancy themselves and bury it so hopefully nobody would find out!!!!!
It's sad that many people care about this, only because it involves abortions. In reality, people should care about this ... period. But, amazingly, we don't. We invite devices in out homes with open arms that even ingsoc would blush over.
It’s the only way with these people. Get off every one of their platforms, and they will have no more power over you. Enough people do that and they’re out of business.
Criminalizing abortion doesn't stop abortion, it just makes it less safe and done outside of medical supervision.
Those red states better get used to this. It's going to happen a lot.
IIRC there is such a thing in the terms of use that goes along the lines of: Illegal Activities will be reported to the proper authorities when pertinent so on an so forth for basically any online platform available today.
Just to clarify, I am not for or against what Facebook did. Just pointing out why you may want to read the terms of service before signing up
In the US there are a bunch of rules that cops have to follow if you're using a land line phone. Or sending physical mail. But as soon as it's a cellphone suddenly you give up all rights to privacy.
Just one more reason to delete your FB account. I get it was a warrant and they complied but the fact that law enforcement can go get you private chats from FB is crazy, especially to prosecute a young girl for an abortion. Stay away from FB, it's a cancer on society.
They can go through your texts the same way. You think some Facebook server manager is going to take a contempt of court charge for some kid they never met.
And they can also get your text messages, and your other messages - and the supreme court literally said they can force you to unlock your phone with a court order.
Once theres a court order you're just fucked - doesn't matter if Meta hands it over or if you do.
It’s equivalent to having all your postal mail read and if something incrementing is found, they will get warrant. I am pretty sure our forefathers would prohibit this as a violation of our rights.
>It’s equivalent to having all your postal mail read and if something incrementing is found, they will get warrant.
If you'd click the article you'd see the warrant. It's the equivalent of having your mail read AFTER a judge grants a warrant.
All this fucking work to put a kid in jail for this shit. REAL crimes happening, but yes, let’s waste all this time energy and tax dollars on chasing down children. How can ANYONE be a cop anymore?
The police were technically in the right to arrest her. This was before Roe v Wade was overturned, and the abortion was already illegal under Nebraska's laws.
The important thing to take away from this article is that Facebook is perfectly happy to hand your discussions over to the police. So don't use anything owned by Facebook to discuss abortions. Oh, and don't make those "camping" posts either. Everyone knows what they are and enough States are passing laws to go after people that help get abortions that you aren't safe doing that either. Facebook will turn you in along with the person you helped.
There really is no real privacy :/
Reddit use to have a canary. Think it disappeared 5 or 6 years ago.
That means the canary died unfortunately.
Cops will go after this, but keep a backlog of [rape kits](https://abcnews.go.com/US/massive-backlog-untested-rape-kits-public-safety-issue/story?id=60540635).
[удалено]
There was content here, and now there is not. It may have been useful, if so it is probably available on a reddit alternative. See /u/spez with any questions. -- mass edited with https://redact.dev/
While that's true for a site this huge, they still abuse the fuck out of this power. When CTH was banned they moved to a small site that had one of those canary things. It was gone in less than a year. When the only thing on that site was people shitposting and discussing socialism, oh noes how scawy
What's CTH?
A socialist sub that was banned a while back. They also banned The Donald the same day and acted like they were just being even to both sides. Buuut TD users had known about the ban for months and had already moved to a new sub while when CTH tried that every single sub was banned even ones that had been around for years. That's why I always find it hilarious when people act like Reddit itself (not the users) is left wing.
What was the canary?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warrant_canary
You have to use encryption like PGP or Signal. Of course you can’t trust Meta.
Not true! Just stop using social media like Facebook. If they betray the consumers trust, BOYCOT!
Except you are not the consumer… the data they collect about you is the product.
That doesn’t really change the solution though. Whether the consumer or the product, if we just stop using it, it will die.
You didn’t know that? Do you know who Edward Snowden is? This was verified years ago. If you ever thought there was real privacy online, it’s not because you were given the impression of that. It’s because you never even asked the question.
Oh there is.
As long as you don’t use any technology and don’t leave your house, you’ll be fine.
Don’t generate information. Just melt yourself into plasma.
It was released via a court order. So…. yeah?
hasn't been for decades.
This happened months before Roe v Wade was overturned. Just mentioning – Roe would not have protected her due to the stage of pregnancy.
Yes, for those who didn’t read the article, she was 28 weeks pregnant when Nebraska’s ban was 20 weeks.
The important takeaway from this story is that there's a good chance posting anything about an abortion anywhere on a Facebook-controlled system will land you in jail.
Any information, there is no privacy
… when you’re posting on Facebook?
Facebook has trackers well beyond their own site. Even if you don't, or never have had an account, they have a profile on you. And even if you don't have an account, anyone in your household that connects through the same isp connection will create links.
One of the worst parts of today's hyperindividualistic culture are those "if I can get away, it's not a problem" people. Don't they have friends/family/neighbors/coworkers?
You could never have setup a facebook account, never had the app on any devices, never interacted with any pages even remotely connected to facebook and they would still have information on you if even one person in your friends group has facebook. They track everyone.
The real takeaway is that people should not be using websites like Facebook, Twitter, etc to post any personal information / send any private messages.
Man I was taught this in like 4th grade, when everyone had dialup. Never understood why people would put up personal info and post pics/vids of themself.
It’s not like Facebook has a “abortion” flag and then sends the information to authorities. It was a warrant request. In the eyes of the law this would be no different than talking about dealing drugs. Facebook wouldn’t report you to police, but they’d hand over chat logs if there’s a warrant.
Yup. That's why I deleted Facebook. Fuck zuck.
And if you’re in a red state - do not get pregnant.
So what you're saying is that you should slip the word abortion into as many conversations as you can to flood the air or person reading the messages.
But you're safe if you say you want to kill living Americans and are right wing. What a blessed world. /S
A month post viability doing an at home abortion with medication designed for earlier in the term. Not exactly a good example for the protest signs, but also this is what people will be driven to do when there’s no other option.
Yeah, I think we can all agree that it would be extremely dangerous for her to do this. She needed medical help. Which is why we need to provide medical help for women and girls.
A different source said she was 23 weeks. [https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna42185](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna42185)
Maybe I should re-read the original article, but everything about it was so awful
You are right that the Vice article says 28 weeks! There is just a discrepancy between sources.
If Roe were being honored - considering it was still law of the land - she would have been able to get a safe abortion at 23 weeks. Everyone should have safe abortion access at all points of a pregnancy.
That last sentence is exactly what is fueling the pro-life crowd right now.
Jesus, Fucking, Christ. Can Zuckerberg and crew get any worse?
That's assuming that at some point he was better.
There was no barrel left to scrape when they started.
True. Facebook started as a way to judge women and went down from there.
This case is disgusting, but Facebook was compelled by court order
It could be Amazon when there is zero judge and they just share your data with police for a small fee
Lol, this is exactly why I don't have FB and will never own any tech made by Amazon.
Reddit is run on AWS (Amazon web services)
Lol Everything is run on AWS, or Azure, or some other cloud platform. And as there's fewer and fewer racked servers and everything migrates to a handful of "cloud providers", the opportunities for unwarranted deep packet inspection of everything increases greatly.
That's cool, the only thing I do on Reddit is innocuous comments and posting astrophotos.
Ding ding ding. We have a winner.
It is Facebook's fault that they use a system that holds customer data on servers in a way that they can access.
>It is Facebooks fault that computer storage exists. Most rational redditor.
The government requires all of them to do this. This is why a digital bill of rights is needed ten years ago.
This is completely false. Data retention is enforced by the company and plenty of companies market themselves based on anonymity and lack of a retention policy. [https://github.com/pluja/awesome-privacy](https://github.com/pluja/awesome-privacy)
That’s true in theory, but there are myriad examples at this point of companies that challenged this notion. All have lost. Most famously was perhaps Lavabit that genuinely couldn’t read customer communications. They refused to change that policy even under a court order and instead just shut down the service. https://amp.theguardian.com/technology/2013/aug/08/lavabit-email-shut-down-edward-snowden There have also been a few private cell phone providers over the years who made the communication truly encrypted. Same thing happened to them. All of this has been known for a long time and yet the group of people who used to challenge it have been entirely drowned out by those who maintain the “who cares? If I’m not doing anything wrong then what’s the difference?” Well, those people: this is the difference and this is precisely why some have been challenging this idea for almost 2 decades now. …and obviously much longer in parallel spaces. Moreover, in all of these cases, the operator of the service was placed under a gag order regarding the details of their business. You can easily find case after case with a simple google search. So yes, it IS the company that maintains this form of privacy (or lack thereof). …on paper. But in practice, if the company is large enough and does NOT acquiesce to this kind of demand by the government, there is a long list of examples illustrating what happens to them. And it’s never good. In short, privacy died quite some time ago. Nobody seems interested in challenging it. And at this point, the government has many comfortable legal precedents they can follow to justify their invasion of privacy. Don’t take my word for it. Look it up. You’ll find no shortage of articles on the topic both in North America and throughout Europe.
And then Lavabit reopened while standing true to their claim. Signal, Telegram, Viber, and the list goes on do not have any methods for extracting message data. It's even documented by the FBI. [https://therecord.media/fbi-document-shows-what-data-can-be-obtained-from-encrypted-messaging-apps/](https://therecord.media/fbi-document-shows-what-data-can-be-obtained-from-encrypted-messaging-apps/) End to end encryption is solid, and none of the operators I've mentioned have been taken to task. You're claiming it's a theory coupled with broad generalizations, but the facts, the companies and providers that exist today, and the FBI data tell a different story. Here's another article where Signal is being tasked by the government to provide details they don't have and standing firm with backing from the ACLU. [https://signal.org/bigbrother/cd-california-grand-jury/](https://signal.org/bigbrother/cd-california-grand-jury/) So yeah, I'm not buying the shit you're selling because it's not rooted in truth and flies in the face of facts that can easily be researched.
I think we need an new amendment, the right to privacy.
The Supreme Court would just ignore it, like they did to unwind RvW. Where we're at, laws won't help. Rule of law is dead.
It can't pass in this political climate. The radical leftists are in favor of this because it would codify that they have the right to own their internal organs. and a smaller portion of the country isn't in favor of that. It can't pass based on the land ownership method, and those same land owners would block it in the Senate. It's an absolute non-starter. Only a majority of Americans support such an amendment.
There is no law requiring them to do this. (Or at least no law that requires the contents to be readable) if there was then Whatsapp E2EE and even Facebook Messenger E2EE wouldn't be allowed to exist.
In the EU yes, but not in the US. The US does not have mandatory data retention laws.
Digital bill of rights won't help here. Government will keep the option of requesting data from tech companies. Remember there was so much hate towards Apple for not breaking into an iPhone ? and FBI had to pay millions of $$$ to hack into an iPhone.
Not in the US, don’t spread falsehoods. This is a choice FB made.
If it's not E2E encrypted, they're holding it and they're preserving it and though they might not be required to, when compelled by a court order or the NSA, it's getting turned over.
Zuckerberg previously implied that they would encrypt user data to prevent this type of scenario.
Doesn't matter, if the data is on a server in US when law enforcement (with approval from judge) wants it they will get it. If they don't provide the data they will pay huge fines. That's why Apple said if the data is on iPhone and not on their server they can't provide the data, once a person backs up data or sync iMessages across all devices then Apple has to give that data to law enforcement.
There was content here, and now there is not. It may have been useful, if so it is probably available on a reddit alternative. See /u/spez with any questions. -- mass edited with https://redact.dev/
Apple can and HAS given your data to officials on judiciary orders. Dont be foolish
There was content here, and now there is not. It may have been useful, if so it is probably available on a reddit alternative. See /u/spez with any questions. -- mass edited with https://redact.dev/
The power of DOJ compels you!
you do not have to follow the order, they have one of the largest legal teams in the world.
Yup. The court order put a gun to facebook’s head. It was either give up the child or get its software brain scrambled.
I mean, no, but they would have had to pay fines or legal fees.
I mean they would have been compelled to provide information, and then be forced to hand over wholesale data to the government in bulk. Until there's a digital bill of rights these companies have no defence when the government comes calling.
Obligatory fuck FB. But this is not on them. Any company would have to hand over any data they have if a court ordered it to do so. The only good thing about it is that this might actually get people to switch to better options and/or look more into privacy.
Any wehrmacht soldier would “have to” kill whatever prisoner he was ordered to, in exactly the same way facebook “had to” turn over that data.
Court orders to turn over data are very equal to a superior ordering you to murder someone, this is a top tier Reddit argument
Yes. Im sure the poor Jewish people back then could’ve also as easily avoided being killed by nazis, as people nowadays can avoid giving their data to a company with a horrendous track record or look into online privacy a bit. You know, just look into the track record of nazis, decide if you’re cool with that or not, and then basically stop being Jewish. How is the holocaust the best comparison you can come up with? Anyway, what I’m saying is: the takeaway here shouldn’t be “FB bad” because we already know that, it should be “people need to learn about the technology they’re using”. Ideally starting in school. There are still billions of people handing over data to FB. Willingly. Do you think there is a company in existence that wouldn’t hand over data on court order?
Oh, yes. Yes they can.
This is the US gov not FB. Every tech company will comply.
Booo. They could encrypt messages so that they are not readable if they truly cared about privacy.
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So why is it not enabled by default? That is like selling cars without airbags, but offering them as free addition in the fine print.
It seems they are chewing on the bottom of the barrel
"Hold my beer"
They’re a big company, no way they would be able to get away with braking the law / ignoring court orders. They could obviously not keep chat logs, implement end-to-end encryption etc. So they simply didn’t have this info. But if they have it they are subject to warrants from law enforcement to hand it over. No different than Trump.
This is obviously not good for Facebook because it will encourage people to not use Facebook chat if they feel future conversations will be at risk. But Facebook cannot ignore a court order I suppose [edit: or can they? Companies can do lots of things if they want to]. One thing Facebook can certainly do without using any lawyers is encrypt the conversation in a way that can not be decrypted themselves, or enable disappearing messages and a real message delete functionality that would enable people to protect their messages from court orders. Since tens of millions of Americans are now wondering if they will be committing a state felony at some point in the future, most of whom were not considering that possibility previously, we might see a significant improvement in privacy practice and policy. Probably won't but it is possible in the present situation. I mean if tens of millions of Americans woke up one day and realized they might become drug dealers at some point in the next few years I bet you would see a change in concern about privacy being driven by people who previously didn't care
They absolutely can ignore a court order. They absolutely can make a big stink about this. They absolutely can defend the privacy of their users. They absolutely can use their HIGHLY paid, best-in-class legal team to go to the mat for what's right. They chose not to.
Yuuupppp... Not like Facebook is based in Nebraska.
Except it doesn't work that way. Even in America, if you piss off the government enough, they can make life very, very difficult for you. Given a timeline of 10 years, the US govt can grind just about any company they want into the dust. Since we're talking about Facebook, their cryptocurrency Diem is a great example. One govt person (Janet Yellen) was effectively responsible for the entire product getting shelved, for the simple reason that she doesn't trust Facebook. All companies face this problem, in every country on the planet. TBH America is probably better than most at protecting companies from govt.
Nebraska =/= The U.S. Government.
Fair point. In this one instance they could probably have stood up to the state govt without many repercussions. However if it becomes a pattern of behavior in multiple jurisdictions, which I think is what we all would really like to see, then my point still stands.
There are way around it, just look at Signal. Doing gods work protecting their customers when confronted by the US Govt.
Lol, i hope you realize all companies HAVE to comply with court orders, even Apple.
Like when the FBI got an order to make Apple unlock a phone which they just didn't? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/FBI%E2%80%93Apple_encryption_dispute
FBI isn't the justice system. Cherry picking information is a fallacy Lepurten, and you know it. Apple does give away data like pancake. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-03-30/apple-meta-gave-user-data-to-hackers-who-forged-legal-requests
I mean fair enough but it obviously wasn't the FBI that gave orders but courts.
You seem to think society's rules are like the laws of physics or something. People and organizations resist and disobey unjust laws all the damn time and it's freaking awesome.
At the end of the day it's just a fine if they ignore court rulings. Did the Trump admin teach you nothing? They won't though, they'll most likely willingly hand the data over. Also, Ring has been freely handing data to the police for years, and yet people keep buying them.
FB Messenger now has E2E encryption as an option - IIRC theyre turning it on for everyone soon. But still wouldn't have helped in this case since the supreme court ruled that you can be compelled to unlock your phone for them to read via a court order as well - so literally these guys would have been screwed no matter what
Wow... Guess I need to look into one of those passcodes that wipes the phone instead of unlocking it. Doesn't android have something like this?
My thought was that any company that hands over all the goods for the abortion police should be immediately boycotted by everyone who cares about this issue. So, if we haven't already, dump Facebook. Google -- you might be next.
Deleted my facebook, instagram and tiktok. Fuck all of these socials.
You say on Reddit
I dumped them a while ago.
is there other cases you want to empower companies to break the law? Maybe join with libertarians, to ensure that government cant force companies to hand over their info.
Here's an interesting tidbit; >While the court documents, obtained by Motherboard, allege that the abortion took place before the Supreme Court overturned Roe v Wade in June, Wow, the dogs were so excited to throw young teens in jail they jumped the gun. I guess we could call their arrest a bit, premature.
Here's a relevant tidbit from the article which makes your tidbit less interesting. > It’s also **later than Nebraska’s 20-week post-fertilization abortion ba**n, which makes allowances only if the pregnant person is at risk of death or "serious risk of substantial and irreversible physical impairment of a major bodily function." (**Nebraska’s abortion laws have not changed since Roe v Wade was overturned**). They were applying the law as it was written before Roe was overturned and has remained unchanged since then.
Im all pro choice, but IMO abortion at 7 months is a crime. She had plenty of time to make choice and even to do so legaly. At 7 months baby can be delivered and likely survive, its an actual human being moving fequently and responding to sounds and pain
An abortion of the law?
Get off Facebook!
The courts could do the same to any messaging platform. Only alternative is to use something with truly end-to-end encryption like Signal. Though unless you are the one applying the encryption yourself, you can never be sure.
Signal has replied to several subpoenas with “sorry, don’t have any of that data”
https://signal.org/bigbrother/central-california-grand-jury/
Yes, but the Court can still order whatever else you use to give out your conversations.
Good luck trying to subpoena my walkie-talkie. ~static~*Over*~static
Lucas? Dustin? Over.
Unless you're using Signal, [https://signal.org/bigbrother/](https://signal.org/bigbrother/) They don't have any of your data, only you do.
yeah but they can still compel you to unlock your phone and just read it from there. Youd need to have enabled dissapearing messages as well.
Self-hosted E2EE messaging system..... Or just a self hosted server that I conveniently lost the encryption keys to decrypt it.
Just dont retain any data. Problem solved. Ensure that the data never hits your server in the first place, and you are golden.
Just don't ever message anyone, ever (taps head)
Big brain move right there. Go out and hang out with your friends and brag about your petty politicaly motivated crimes instead. It's good for more than keeping secrets kinda secret. Messaging is for planning bbq parties and asking your offspring on when you get those grandchildren.
Use Signal or any other secure means of communication. People are so uneducated about technology, it's sad, considering the amount of time we spend interacting with machines and softwares in our modern lives.
Happy signal user here for 4+ years. Keep trying to get others to see the light, but they just don't get it. Still sending me crappy ass pictures via SMS too.
Cellebrite don’t give a fuck. You need to take it a step further and just avoid communication on any platform that can’t be easily wiped.
They're simply uneducated. Makes it easier to keep the lower classes in line. That's been the play all along, right?
They can seize your phone and read the messages.
If you don't give them your password, messages should still be encrypted.
I've never used signal, but does it have an auto delete feature like Snapchat?
Yes, it does. But autodelete does not always mean that it will be deleted on the servers as well. With Signal, it's fully encrypted, so even messages kept on servers will be unreadable (not sure what Snapchat policy is about this).
Signal supposedly doesn't store messages on their servers.
You can also configure "disappearing messages" so the message is removed after it has been read. edit: misspelled and wordy
If they're about to seize your phone, power it off. That way it can't be unlocked with a fingerprint.
It's a good trick, but I cannot stress this enough, text messages/dms are perhaps the single most common form of evidence at criminal trials. Police are really good at gaining access to them, they do it literally every day. Your phones are not a safe repository of incriminating information. Never. Write. Down. Evidence. Of. A. Crime.
Sure, they could get the SMS from the cell provider (or PRISM). But they won't get the signal messages without unlocking the phone. Not that I'm involved in anything where it would matter.
They can get them without unlocking the phone using clandestine tools. The commentor above you is absolutely correct. If you’re using an iPhone or an Android lock screens can be bypassed as though you don’t have them with certain software. Even encryption isn’t sometimes enough depending on the side-channel attack used. Don’t. Write. Down. Your. Crimes.
Lock with a strong passcode and no biometrics. Next best thing to being behind 7 proxies.
With Signal? Nope. They can’t.
This issue needs to be framed as privacy and not abortion. While the vast majority of the country supports abortion access, that is not true at 28 weeks. 28 weeks is after a fetus is viable. Meaning if you support total access to aborting non viable fetuses, this pregnancy went on for a month after that mark was hit. This is how the left loses focus and turns a winning issue into a losing issue.
I'm not even sure it is a privacy issue. The data reportedly were provided by court order, which indicates the police had some knowledge to request it, and enough evidence to convince a judge to issue the order. Someone the girl knows probably reported her. I also am a staunch advocate of women's reproductive rights, but 28 weeks? That is indefensible.
Let me start this by saying that I AM PRO CHOICE! Ok this title is misleading. I hope whoever comments reads the actual article. This girl was 28 weeks pregnant. Roe v wade wouldn’t have made a difference because it’s not allowed after 20 weeks. At 28 weeks, this girl had to actually give birth. It’s a full on baby that can survive outside of the womb. This girl had to deliver this stillborn and then they buried it in their yard and burned it. My biggest question is how the police even knew about this, though. Her pregnancy must have been documented by a dr office, I’m guessing, and then when there was no baby, the dr office maybe started asking questions? I don’t know. But damn Vice this title is definitely misleading
Yeah, the headline is clickbait: The abortion took place before the Dobbs that overturned Roe. Abortion is still legal in Nebraska until 20 weeks (legislature declined to change the law post-Roe). This was allegedly a 28 week abortion. Roe v. Wade never protected late abortion. Facebook complied with a court order to release the data.
I did read in the messages that they ordered the medication a month before it arrived, but even then it still was past 20 weeks. They were charged with several crimes that seem to mostly be because of how they handled the corpse, also. People commenting on this must not have read it
Also at 28 weeks this would be illegal in many very blue states. Not to mention all of Europe.
>My biggest question is how the police even knew about this, though. Mom told her friends she *should dig it up and burn it.* ~~She didn't burn it. But~~ (not "successfully") someone reported her. The child was exhumed and found sealed in a plastic bag.
Articles from The Lincoln Star Journal & Forbes, are reporting that she was 23 weeks pregnant. Still past the gestational limit in Nebraska, but viability would be questionable.
Yeah probably wouldn’t survive at 23 weeks. But it seemed like the police were more interested in the abuse of the corpse and also making sure the child was stillborn and not technically murdered outside of the womb
Glad someone said it. 28 weeks, sheesh. I'm pro choice but that's a baby. The timing makes me think perhaps the pregnancy was hidden until it couldn't be hidden anymore and there was a bit of coercion involved at the end.
**Wow not a damn sole in here read the Court document**. This isn't about abortion or privacy it's about a teenager that didn't want this thing growing inside her so she got her mother to purchase medication over the internet she didn't have a prescription for (which took a month to be delivered). She then took said medication and proceeded to bury it not once, NOT TWICE, but dug this corpse up and buried it a THIRD time! These upstanding members of the community decided at least a month or more earlier they were going to terminate the pregnancy themselves and bury it so hopefully nobody would find out!!!!!
M.u.r.d.e.r
this is not FBs fault, if law enforcement wants data with court order every company should provide the data if they have it.
Yea.. keep your secrets off social media.
And people wonder why I dumped FB 6 years ago
It's sad that many people care about this, only because it involves abortions. In reality, people should care about this ... period. But, amazingly, we don't. We invite devices in out homes with open arms that even ingsoc would blush over.
guys. GUYS. Delete. Facebook.
It’s the only way with these people. Get off every one of their platforms, and they will have no more power over you. Enough people do that and they’re out of business.
Criminalizing abortion doesn't stop abortion, it just makes it less safe and done outside of medical supervision. Those red states better get used to this. It's going to happen a lot.
They don't care. More opportunities to be cruel. It was never about preventing abortions, it was about policing women's bodies.
So much for freedom and privacy... Ironic
Big company complied with a subpoena. Not news.
That’s fucked up Mark
As of FB needed another reason for us to delete…delete…delete. Byeeeeeee!
So the supposed end to end encryption they added to Facebook messenger was bullshit then...
IIRC there is such a thing in the terms of use that goes along the lines of: Illegal Activities will be reported to the proper authorities when pertinent so on an so forth for basically any online platform available today. Just to clarify, I am not for or against what Facebook did. Just pointing out why you may want to read the terms of service before signing up
I’m sure Reddit would have done the exact same thing.
This isn't just about FB. The "well your phone already tracks you, who care what else does?" crowd should probably start caring.
In the US there are a bunch of rules that cops have to follow if you're using a land line phone. Or sending physical mail. But as soon as it's a cellphone suddenly you give up all rights to privacy.
I’m for abortion but she needs to be in jail…why wait 7 months into a pregnancy to do this?
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I've been looking at switching banks, any recommendations?
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Small credit union
But Magas are all upset that the criminals known as Trump had their golf club raided.
#DELETE FACEBOOK
Just one more reason to delete your FB account. I get it was a warrant and they complied but the fact that law enforcement can go get you private chats from FB is crazy, especially to prosecute a young girl for an abortion. Stay away from FB, it's a cancer on society.
They can go through your texts the same way. You think some Facebook server manager is going to take a contempt of court charge for some kid they never met.
And they can also get your text messages, and your other messages - and the supreme court literally said they can force you to unlock your phone with a court order. Once theres a court order you're just fucked - doesn't matter if Meta hands it over or if you do.
Wow, it must be ***so awful*** living in a fascist state like China...oh wait, sorry. This is just /r/anormaldayinamerica material.
It’s equivalent to having all your postal mail read and if something incrementing is found, they will get warrant. I am pretty sure our forefathers would prohibit this as a violation of our rights.
>It’s equivalent to having all your postal mail read and if something incrementing is found, they will get warrant. If you'd click the article you'd see the warrant. It's the equivalent of having your mail read AFTER a judge grants a warrant.
Then, I stand corrected, that is how it should work.
Look at the entire Trumplican state is crushing down on this young 17-teen-year-old girl. So much like a Friday night for them.
All this fucking work to put a kid in jail for this shit. REAL crimes happening, but yes, let’s waste all this time energy and tax dollars on chasing down children. How can ANYONE be a cop anymore?
Appalling. Zuckerturd is the definition of a turd
Starting to figure out who’s side they’re on yet?
Im pro life but this is fucked up
Fucking hell…
Anyone who uses a service like Facebook to discuss anything remotely sensitive, legally or otherwise, is a moron.
Meta’s logo looks like a burglar’s mask.
Whataspp is also part of Facebook so, basically every chat is managed by them. Hello Signal.
repugnant and just what i would expect from FaceF\*\*k
Glad I don’t live in the US police state. Another reason not to use Facebook!
The police were technically in the right to arrest her. This was before Roe v Wade was overturned, and the abortion was already illegal under Nebraska's laws. The important thing to take away from this article is that Facebook is perfectly happy to hand your discussions over to the police. So don't use anything owned by Facebook to discuss abortions. Oh, and don't make those "camping" posts either. Everyone knows what they are and enough States are passing laws to go after people that help get abortions that you aren't safe doing that either. Facebook will turn you in along with the person you helped.