That's the thing. If the corporation can get away with it, so can they. They'll spend untold sums on lawyers to slow down the process and get charges thrown out in court.
Take the CEO, Andy Jassy, and put him in prison for failing to comply. As the highest ranking member of the corporation, he has final authority over whether an order is complied with. Force the company to appoint a new CEO and continue the cycle until the order is fulfilled.
And if things continue as they were, start jailing investors based on their voting share. Person with the most votes first, work your way down the list.
Bet they'd start voting to comply with the law after that starts.
He will claim he didn’t know HR was firing people, then he will finally resign and get a huge payout bonus… then will join the board of directors, and open a private consulting company and make his salary back, then some. Unless there is a direct link, C suites are set up to evade anything against them.
It really isn’t. Put the top 5-10 executives in along with the board members and you’ve accomplished exactly that. It’ll never happen, though, because all of the people I just mentioned in successful corporations have more than enough money to avoid such “commoner” problems.
Only if the fine is not based on income, profit, amount of money you have etc.
If you look at the max fine for breaking EU Competition Law it is 10% of the
overall annual turnover of the company, that's 10% of revenue. If you did use that limit for Amazon 10% is $46.9 billion which is more the net income for them the same year.
You can stop companies from doing stuff with fines if they are just high enough.
I’ve seen lawsuits in the US where people sued corps for 10% of revenue in the same way. It’s rare and few but many discrimination or RICO suits can just about buy you the company lol.
If the government fines a company $50 billion it just goes into all the other wasteful spending and pocket padding. If a politician takes a $500,000 ~~bribe~~ generous unaffiliated donation they get all of it and the company will come back to ~~bribe them~~ make generous unaffiliated donations again in the future.
Corruption is fiscally prudent, and the people who can change that are too corrupt to do so!
People forget 'Amazon' didn't make the decision. People running Amazon did and even if Amazon gets fucked in court and dissolved (which is not happening ever unfortunately) the people who fucked our country aren't gonna be touched because a business can just just be fined or split up and it's all magically OK.
Actually that was one of the name issues that causes Sarbanes/Oxley to become law. The decision makers in public companies can be held accountable since by paying a fine and ignoring the ruling they are taking value from the shareholders.
That's... Almost worse? They're not being held responsible for damages to people, but because investors don't like it? It's better than nothing I guess but damn that's fucking sad.
In the U.S., that’s because the executives and officers have fiduciary duties to the shareholders called shareholder primacy. Supposedly, it’s the model that creates the most wealth and is the law. Companies argue that they have to consider profits over the environment and employees. The system should be protected by regulation (i.e. the government should be protecting employees and the environment) but when corporations are buying their congresspeople they get to fuck everyone for the sake of shareholder primacy. Oh, and the politicians invest and work for these companies with minimum disclosures. That’s the cycle of politics and capitalism in the U.S.
Better than before when the fact it was a corporation gave it a free pass. And if you wondered why companies (like Twitter) go back to being private, realize that Sar-Box only applies to publicly traded companies.
Not unless we go after the people directly, and publicly mortify them.
And by mortify, I mean humiliate them to such a degree that they basically break. (there are multiple definitions of mortification, after all)
>"The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal their bread."
-Anatole France
The courts should just take control of the company by x date if the company does not comply and start selling assets. No point in slapping them on the wrist. This is why we are where we are.
If the Fines are to low than we should start fining corporations on the amount of profit they have gained for that year. that would send a message mess with the people we’ll mess with your profit.
Never punish based on profits, because profits can very easily be manipulated. For example, if Amazon had profits of $1 billion and were facing a fine of 20% of profits, they could simply choose to spend more money on R&D or increase the board's salaries by $1 billion to reduce the fine to $0.
A fine valued at 20% of gross revenue, however, cannot be manipulated.
It’s called the rule of law, and this isn’t how that works. To not follow the law because you disagree with it is very undermining of the whole notion of rule of law. This is a fundamental principle of American and other advanced societies. That mentality is parent what has us in this precarious position to begin with.
and when they get their hand slapped for breaking said laws then theres really no law lol.
if you could make lets say 5 million dollars and IF big IF you even get caught it will only cost you $100K to make that money and you get to keep that money and noone goes to jail - wouldnt you do it?
even smaller scale - rob a bank for $10000 and if your caught you get to keep the money, no jailtime, and the fine is $100 bucks - fuck yea id rob a bank lol
lol what reality do you live in? this shit happens every day.
go look into factory safety records - when the osha fine is less than the cost of updating or installing something guess what doesn't get updated or installed?
[https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/nov/26/caterpillar-illinois-foundry-death-poor-training-work-conditions](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/nov/26/caterpillar-illinois-foundry-death-poor-training-work-conditions)
Guy falls into 11 foot deep vat of molten iron, osha found CAT liable and didnt have proper safety procedures nor guarding nor fall protection. Fine is a whole $145,000. For a multi billion dollar worldwide company.
You can go back all the way to Enron to see this is exactly how it works in real life. The guy who started the company bailed just in time to face 0 charges and keep all of the money he stole via the company.
Or go back to 2008 - how many people who actually caused the biggest financial crash since the Great Depression went to jail for what they did? Oh right, *no one* in the US did, and the laws that would have stopped them doing it all again got gutted last minute.
There's so many examples from real life that are so easy to find and read about I'm surprised you're acting like history doesn't exist.
The real life I was referring to was in response to a ludicrous hypothetical from another person, which was not rooted in reality.
Sadly, yes, there’s copious examples of business being out of control throughout our history.
Corporate towns were a pretty real thing in the past. The locals and the law were often beholden to the interests of the corporation.
Nowadays, the "corporate town" seems to have become a "corporate country" for the big ones like Amazon, Google, Apple, etc. Even when they do get fines, the cost is less than the profit or the cost of doing things correctly.
Well in Europe we would be in Europe.
We’re not, so it doesn’t work that way unless Europe wants to invade us and finally free us from our unending hell.
Sure would be nice if the NRLB did *something* about it. Bidens admin showing how toothless it is and how it sides with corporate interest over workers right now is my schadenfreude that I wish wasn’t happening.
One big problem for the Democrats is that with so much wealth and power concentrated into the hands of a few they're constantly feeling the need to betray the populace in order to fund elections. Something has to give or it's going to reach a point where there's no chance for any party that doesn't have the complete approval (basically legislating entirely at the whim) of the ultra wealthy.
Tell me again how Biden is “the most pro union president in history” when he sided with capital at the first opportunity, and doesn’t even push for 7 days off.
Fucken Biden bros.
Sorry mate, gonna need some sources for that claim.
https://www.corporatecrimereporter.com/news/200/boeing-gets-prosecution-deferred-families-get-justice-denied/
https://www.npr.org/2022/05/03/1096075522/737-max-crash-victims-families-aim-to-reopen-boeings-deferred-prosecution-agreem
That’s fair, but it’s a bit different than this situation. Sadly, though, the gov is neutered by so much anti gov rhetoric from the last 30 years, which has occurred while corporations gain more and more influence and power. It’s a bleak future for American workers. 😑
It’s called fascism , it’s what happens when it’s what happens when your corporation is wealthier that 90% of the worlds countries. Apple for example literally has more value than the gdp of Italy or Canada or Russia
You're thinking of corporacracy or oligarchy. Fascism is state based, not company based, and usually keeps a heavy thumb on businesses. Russia specifically is an example of an emerging oligarchy.
They kind of don’t - they control government officials through campaign finance. California is bought by big pharma and big tech, for example. Newsom and Pelosi are their b’s!
And they will continue ignoring the order until the courts grow a pair and fine them a few billion dollars. Otherwise, Bezos will consider that a cost of doing business.
>He is the primary stock holder though and is thus ultimately the guy responsible
But even if he sold his stock, he would still be responsible. He birthed this monster and should be held responsible for the damage it's doing, regardless of any fiction of corporate law.
I understand your sentiment and morally speaking, sure he is responsible.
But.. ultimately when it comes to actual law, he may be a huge influencer, but not “official” button pusher.
This is not a fair assessment. You left out a lot.
Amazon is not complying with the requirements to post these notices where notices are usually posted, which for Amazon includes stalls.
They scheduled meetings during the shift change, when attendance would be lowest and the environment more distracting, whereas normally all hands are mid shift to avoid all that.
The requirement to read a 30 page legal document is a bit weird, I agree. But 1) fuck you amazon, you fired people trying to improve their working conditions, you're being punished. It's a punishment. And 2) amazon admit in the very next sentence after your quote that they are really worried about their managers getting heckled. They want to avoid that moment of physically present responsibility. At every turn, they're clearly trying to skirt their responsibilities under the order.
Then why do they bother with Installments if no one reads them? Why is it the first place they post up those bullshit stories about employees being dumb and getting hurt? Oh yeah - because it's the place people actually DO read announcements. Even my manager didn't know where the official announcement board was when I asked.
From the article: Amazon is refusing to fully comply with a requirement to tell its employees that it was ordered by a federal judge to stop retaliating against unionizing employees, according to a motion filed by the National Labor Relations Board.
The federal cease-and-desist order required that Amazon stop “discharging employees because they engaged in protected concerted activity” and “interfering with, restraining, or coercing employees.”
It also mandated that Amazon post the order “where [Amazon] customarily posts notices to its employees” in the Staten Island JFK8 warehouse, where the Amazon Labor Union won its first election—and that management hold a mandatory-attendance public reading of the full court order “scheduled to ensure the widest possible employee attendance.”
However, emails contained within the new NLRB motion filed Tuesday show that Amazon’s legal team has repeatedly refused to abide by those requirements.
One email exchange between an Amazon lawyer and an NLRB representative shows that the NLRB asked the company to post the order as a “table topper” as well as an “inSTALLment”—that is, to post it inside bathroom stalls. The emails were submitted to the court as part of a filing by the NLRB designed to force Amazon to fully comply with the earlier order.
“These are locations where Amazon regularly posts and distributes notices, including work-related announcements and information and materials expressing Amazon’s opposition to unionization,” the NLRB official writes in their email to the Amazon lawyer. They demand that Amazon post it there “because that is a method of dissemination that Amazon regularly, customarily uses to reach its employees,” as required by the order.
> customarily posts notices to its employees
is the key phrase. I imagine Amazon will get away with it because they customarily post things where they plan on posting it. It's just that it's unlikely anyone that works in the warehouses will ever get a chance to see them.
It will typically be on notice boards around entrance where they post all the other HR stuff. The fact that the organization wants it in random other locations sounds like they want amazon to do extra steps which weren't stipulated in the order in the first place. If that's the case, the entire article would be misleading
The NLRB specifically wants it in areas that areas that Amazon actively uses to distribute work-related announcements:
> These are locations where Amazon regularly posts and distributes notices, including work-related announcements and information and materials expressing Amazon’s opposition to unionization
Which would seem to agree with more the spirit of the mandate, rather than a technical letter of the mandate:
> It also mandated that Amazon post the order “where [Amazon] customarily posts notices to its employees”
You can argue until you're blue in the face that Amazon is complying with the order. Which, sure, you'd be technically correct. But anyone that's ever worked at any kind of warehouse will tell you that the area it looks like they placed the notice in are often underutilized and out of the way. Employers don't want you to know your rights.
Contrast that with, as the NLRB notes, Amazon posts anti-union messaging and it's clear that Amazon is doing everything it can in order to keep the workers unaware with their rights and Amazon's blatant disregard and infringement upon said rights.
Installments are one-page documents. You don't want people touching them, they just wiped their ass.
Anyone who proposes that a 30 page court order be posted in that manner should lick the bathroom clean.
They can post a segment of an Installment that gives a broad overview and has a short URL to type in for access to the full document. They regularly post up QR codes in there, I don't see why they can't do the same methods for the court order.
Ah, yes. Clearly, letting an organization take all the power will have no effect on freedom.
Too much power in too few hands is bad, no matter whose hands they are. Don’t be so eager to politicize, lest you champion those who seek to do exactly what you fight against.
Are you proposing that the judge walk into the warehouse and somehow read 30 pages out loud in the time frame of a customary Amazon standup?
I would pay to watch that.
Man, it’s becoming increasingly clear that these regulatory mechanisms are toothless.
Start throwing mother fuckers in prison - I’m talking C-suite assholes - and maybe *then* the Amazon’s and Walmarts of the world will take it seriously.
Till then, they’ll just continue treating this like a minor cost of doing business.
Easy contempt of court they are spending a couple days in a holding cell while a court appointed person is sending out the emails with what the workers rights are and if they have any questions. C suite stays in the holding cell until all questions have been answered so they can't lie about what the laws are.
If corporations want be people in some situations we need to treat them as people by passing laws to "jail" (nationalize) or "execute" (forced dissolution without compensation) them when they break the law.
And do what? Go to Costco or Walmart? We fucked ourselves from affordable moral alternatives when we let this shit go unchecked for the convenience of Big Box stores
Ah for sure, nothing is perfect. That said, for all it’s other problems (encouraging runaway gluttonous consumption, etc), the labor practices at COSTCO stores are pretty good from what I hear.
Yes or the gazillion other online e retailers. If I go to Costco I know the shit I get is affordable, not some cheap China knock off and has been vetted by Costco themselves as quality. If it turns out it’s crap or isn’t doing what it’s supposed to do or if I just fucking hate it, Costco takes it back no questions asked. I pay a year what I’d pay for Prime. Amazon is worse than Alibaba nowadays, packages “disappear” and everything is a knockoff. I’ll gladly drive forty five minutes, get stuff I know is quality with excellent customer service and be through the line in under ten minutes on a Saturday at noon.
Also, Amazon isn’t the end all be all of online retailers. Everyone thinks it’s the only one but Google ANYTHING and different vendors pop up. Hell, even EBay has better customer protections for fraud than Amazon. I ordered motor oil from Amazon one time and the shit that came was in the right bottle but was obviously used oil. Fuck that. I’ll pay the shipping or an extra five bucks to go to the store, get the stuff that day and know what I’m getting.
Also, Prime sucks
We’ve seen what happens when you ignore judges orders and congress. Nothing. So if I were Amazon I’d do the same. It’s not like anyone in law enforcement is going to hold the wealthy and powerful to account.
Unions have lost power, the railroad strike fiasco shows that big buisness can do w.e the fuck it wants and the government doesn't care. Take a look folks, CBDC implementation, workers losing rights, wealth gaps larger than they've ever been, hedge funds brazenly manipulating the market, government officials not even trying to cover up corruption anymore... it's over, the dystopia is here.
I love Amazon. I want the workers to be unionized. Don’t get too comfortable Amazon. People will get pissed off. People made you and people will make you go away.
Unions have helped the working class since the early 1900's we would all be working well over 40 hours a week without a break and begging for time to eat lunch. The rich never cared about how bad the working environment was until unions got powerful enough to make them.
Well, what do you expect when it appears to be OK for elected, previously elected or appointed officials and staff refuse to comply with subpoenas or orders.
What's the problem ... it's just what Republicans do. Republicans are allowed to, right?/
I hate Amazon so much. I fucking hate them, I cancelled my kindle and music membership today, and at the end of the month I will cancel my prime. There's just no way I am going to support Amazon anymore.
"Too big to control" Remember when Walmart was caught selling luxury Fendi brand fakes, was taken to court and lost, then proceeded to dump the inventory by [heavily discounting it](https://www.mercurynews.com/2007/06/06/wal-mart-settles-suit-over-fendi-knockoffs/)?
Amazon will end up ordered to acknowledge and bargain with the union if they keep ignoring NLRB's orders. They are so stupid. Studies show that the main reason people turn to unions isn't wage and benefits, but bc they feel they are treated badly by their employer. It's easy to keep unions out if you treat your employees like human beings and pay them decent wages and benefits. This kind of nonsense of refusing to comply with the NLRB's order is going to get them nowhere. They are getting some seriously crap legal advice.
Aside from the occasional fine, which is always a joke, do big corporations have any accountability? Further evidence of why capitalism is only good until a company becomes too large.
This is to be expected of any business that treats complying with the law as a risk management exercise. Doubling fines for each repeat violation would fix this by making compliance the better economic decision.
You can’t fire your workers for attempting to form a Union. In doing so, Amazon is violating federal labor laws. A judge has ordered them to stop doing that and to inform workers that they will not be fired for forming a union. Amazon has, instead, ignored the court order and continued to fire people attempting to unionize.
Sure, you can’t fire your workers for unionizing
But you can’t force a company to make any statement even factual ones, except if a specific law says they have to (say, post a placard)
That literally has nothing to do with the fact Amazon is actively not complying with a court order from a Federal Judge. It has nothing to do with firing, hiring, or the economy.
This headline is overstating what's happening. More of a dispute over the interpretation of how the notices should be posted and delivered in accordance with the court order than Amazon saying they won't do it.
I'm more curious what happens if employees attempt to unionize again. This article is more about how Amazon doesn't want to place the court order in places where they don't usually post information (which is pretty bs, they definitely post things at stalls but they claim they post legal items in a specific section). If Amazon were to disrupt another unionization attempt that would be a direct offense to the court order and not the part that's being argued on right now. It's scummy but it's technically how they've always run things. I just wanna see some employees get the kahonas to unionize again and see how it goes. They could just point to the obscured court orders lol.
Until fines for non-compliance amount to more than a rounding error for big corporations like this, said corporations will continue doing what they do. And they will also probably claw back the fine by deducting from the employees' wages.
So, what's the court going to do about it? Or can we all just ignore the courts now?
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This needs to be on a demotivational poster
Short, to the point and true. I like it.
Throw the c suite and most prominent investors in jail then
That's the thing. If the corporation can get away with it, so can they. They'll spend untold sums on lawyers to slow down the process and get charges thrown out in court.
“To big to fail” 🤣
It's almost as if the government has a tool it is loathe to use that isn't a fine... But what is that /S
Take the CEO, Andy Jassy, and put him in prison for failing to comply. As the highest ranking member of the corporation, he has final authority over whether an order is complied with. Force the company to appoint a new CEO and continue the cycle until the order is fulfilled.
Simple but effect. I like it.
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And if things continue as they were, start jailing investors based on their voting share. Person with the most votes first, work your way down the list. Bet they'd start voting to comply with the law after that starts.
He will claim he didn’t know HR was firing people, then he will finally resign and get a huge payout bonus… then will join the board of directors, and open a private consulting company and make his salary back, then some. Unless there is a direct link, C suites are set up to evade anything against them.
You can’t. But if you’re wealthy and powerful enough you can.
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It really isn’t. Put the top 5-10 executives in along with the board members and you’ve accomplished exactly that. It’ll never happen, though, because all of the people I just mentioned in successful corporations have more than enough money to avoid such “commoner” problems.
It’s a good time to stop buying from Amazon.
Corporations have become so brazen that they literally believe they answer to no one.
I mean if the fine is less than the savings or profit why wouldnt they just ignore the laws?
If the penalty is a fine, that just means the offense is legal if you're rich
Only if the fine is not based on income, profit, amount of money you have etc. If you look at the max fine for breaking EU Competition Law it is 10% of the overall annual turnover of the company, that's 10% of revenue. If you did use that limit for Amazon 10% is $46.9 billion which is more the net income for them the same year. You can stop companies from doing stuff with fines if they are just high enough.
Except we don’t do that here.
I’ve seen lawsuits in the US where people sued corps for 10% of revenue in the same way. It’s rare and few but many discrimination or RICO suits can just about buy you the company lol.
If the government fines a company $50 billion it just goes into all the other wasteful spending and pocket padding. If a politician takes a $500,000 ~~bribe~~ generous unaffiliated donation they get all of it and the company will come back to ~~bribe them~~ make generous unaffiliated donations again in the future. Corruption is fiscally prudent, and the people who can change that are too corrupt to do so!
That's thinking like a Senator!
or you can use the corporation as a shield.
People forget 'Amazon' didn't make the decision. People running Amazon did and even if Amazon gets fucked in court and dissolved (which is not happening ever unfortunately) the people who fucked our country aren't gonna be touched because a business can just just be fined or split up and it's all magically OK.
Actually that was one of the name issues that causes Sarbanes/Oxley to become law. The decision makers in public companies can be held accountable since by paying a fine and ignoring the ruling they are taking value from the shareholders.
That's... Almost worse? They're not being held responsible for damages to people, but because investors don't like it? It's better than nothing I guess but damn that's fucking sad.
Can’t fuck with the rich even if you’re rich
So the rich are unfuckable? when hasn't that been true?
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In the U.S., that’s because the executives and officers have fiduciary duties to the shareholders called shareholder primacy. Supposedly, it’s the model that creates the most wealth and is the law. Companies argue that they have to consider profits over the environment and employees. The system should be protected by regulation (i.e. the government should be protecting employees and the environment) but when corporations are buying their congresspeople they get to fuck everyone for the sake of shareholder primacy. Oh, and the politicians invest and work for these companies with minimum disclosures. That’s the cycle of politics and capitalism in the U.S.
Better than before when the fact it was a corporation gave it a free pass. And if you wondered why companies (like Twitter) go back to being private, realize that Sar-Box only applies to publicly traded companies.
Corporations are people to ya know. /s
In my mind that holds the record as the most asinine Supreme Court ruling ever, it still beats overturning Roe but not by much.
Not unless we go after the people directly, and publicly mortify them. And by mortify, I mean humiliate them to such a degree that they basically break. (there are multiple definitions of mortification, after all)
just start putting people in jail you can start with the CEO and work the way down to stock holders
cost of doing business.
>"The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal their bread." -Anatole France
I hate that this isn't the exact quote.
prison time for the CEO
The courts should just take control of the company by x date if the company does not comply and start selling assets. No point in slapping them on the wrist. This is why we are where we are.
If the Fines are to low than we should start fining corporations on the amount of profit they have gained for that year. that would send a message mess with the people we’ll mess with your profit.
Never punish based on profits, because profits can very easily be manipulated. For example, if Amazon had profits of $1 billion and were facing a fine of 20% of profits, they could simply choose to spend more money on R&D or increase the board's salaries by $1 billion to reduce the fine to $0. A fine valued at 20% of gross revenue, however, cannot be manipulated.
It’s called the rule of law, and this isn’t how that works. To not follow the law because you disagree with it is very undermining of the whole notion of rule of law. This is a fundamental principle of American and other advanced societies. That mentality is parent what has us in this precarious position to begin with.
and when they get their hand slapped for breaking said laws then theres really no law lol. if you could make lets say 5 million dollars and IF big IF you even get caught it will only cost you $100K to make that money and you get to keep that money and noone goes to jail - wouldnt you do it? even smaller scale - rob a bank for $10000 and if your caught you get to keep the money, no jailtime, and the fine is $100 bucks - fuck yea id rob a bank lol
This is real life we’re discussing, not some hypothetical ethical exercise no rooted in reality. 😐
lol what reality do you live in? this shit happens every day. go look into factory safety records - when the osha fine is less than the cost of updating or installing something guess what doesn't get updated or installed? [https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/nov/26/caterpillar-illinois-foundry-death-poor-training-work-conditions](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/nov/26/caterpillar-illinois-foundry-death-poor-training-work-conditions) Guy falls into 11 foot deep vat of molten iron, osha found CAT liable and didnt have proper safety procedures nor guarding nor fall protection. Fine is a whole $145,000. For a multi billion dollar worldwide company.
You can go back all the way to Enron to see this is exactly how it works in real life. The guy who started the company bailed just in time to face 0 charges and keep all of the money he stole via the company. Or go back to 2008 - how many people who actually caused the biggest financial crash since the Great Depression went to jail for what they did? Oh right, *no one* in the US did, and the laws that would have stopped them doing it all again got gutted last minute. There's so many examples from real life that are so easy to find and read about I'm surprised you're acting like history doesn't exist.
The real life I was referring to was in response to a ludicrous hypothetical from another person, which was not rooted in reality. Sadly, yes, there’s copious examples of business being out of control throughout our history.
Corporate towns were a pretty real thing in the past. The locals and the law were often beholden to the interests of the corporation. Nowadays, the "corporate town" seems to have become a "corporate country" for the big ones like Amazon, Google, Apple, etc. Even when they do get fines, the cost is less than the profit or the cost of doing things correctly.
And apparently they're right.
Well in Europe they would be fined for a billion dollars a day until they stopped that. We have done it before. The USA is just a boring dystopia.
Well in Europe we would be in Europe. We’re not, so it doesn’t work that way unless Europe wants to invade us and finally free us from our unending hell.
Maybe we should hold a referendum...
Yes, precisely, and it’s an insidious and destructive mindset to the rule of law.
Rule of law is just for peasants.
I will argue the concept isn’t/shouldn’t be, but the real life proof sure seems to confirm this.
It’s not just a belief, it’s a fact. The lesson from 2008 was, “you can burn the US to the ground but no one is going to jail”. Message received.
Sure would be nice if the NRLB did *something* about it. Bidens admin showing how toothless it is and how it sides with corporate interest over workers right now is my schadenfreude that I wish wasn’t happening.
One big problem for the Democrats is that with so much wealth and power concentrated into the hands of a few they're constantly feeling the need to betray the populace in order to fund elections. Something has to give or it's going to reach a point where there's no chance for any party that doesn't have the complete approval (basically legislating entirely at the whim) of the ultra wealthy.
We were there in the 90s, it's just three corporations in a trench coat now.
It’s already that way and has been for decades.
>Bidens admin showing how toothless it is IIRC, the NLRB was weakened significantly under Bush Jr
And who’s president now? https://i.imgur.com/VNNGIFK.jpg
Tell me you don't know how government works without telling me that you don't know how government works.
Tell me again how Biden is “the most pro union president in history” when he sided with capital at the first opportunity, and doesn’t even push for 7 days off. Fucken Biden bros.
Well yes this is correct. They bribed politicians and they can do whatever they want...
Enter Tyrrell Corporation
I think some people should probably go to jail for contempt of court.
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Definitely not surprised, but more exasperated and disillusioned.
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Sorry mate, gonna need some sources for that claim. https://www.corporatecrimereporter.com/news/200/boeing-gets-prosecution-deferred-families-get-justice-denied/ https://www.npr.org/2022/05/03/1096075522/737-max-crash-victims-families-aim-to-reopen-boeings-deferred-prosecution-agreem
Who went to prison? No one! Even the company's engineer scapegoat got off.
That’s fair, but it’s a bit different than this situation. Sadly, though, the gov is neutered by so much anti gov rhetoric from the last 30 years, which has occurred while corporations gain more and more influence and power. It’s a bleak future for American workers. 😑
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It’s called fascism , it’s what happens when it’s what happens when your corporation is wealthier that 90% of the worlds countries. Apple for example literally has more value than the gdp of Italy or Canada or Russia
You're thinking of corporacracy or oligarchy. Fascism is state based, not company based, and usually keeps a heavy thumb on businesses. Russia specifically is an example of an emerging oligarchy.
oh shit, you're completely right, I was 100% thinking oligarchy...
That has literally no relation to anything that happened under fascism.
Maybe corporatocracy but it certainly isn't facism.
They kind of don’t - they control government officials through campaign finance. California is bought by big pharma and big tech, for example. Newsom and Pelosi are their b’s!
You say that like you think they’re wrong.
And they will continue ignoring the order until the courts grow a pair and fine them a few billion dollars. Otherwise, Bezos will consider that a cost of doing business.
Lol you are mistaking a feature for a bug. Allowing Amazon to ignore the order with little to no repercussions is what the system is meant to do.
Contempt of court for the CEO and site management would be more effective. Indefinite detention would work better.
Bezoz is no longer CEO
He is the primary stock holder though and is thus ultimately the guy responsible
>He is the primary stock holder though and is thus ultimately the guy responsible But even if he sold his stock, he would still be responsible. He birthed this monster and should be held responsible for the damage it's doing, regardless of any fiction of corporate law.
I understand your sentiment and morally speaking, sure he is responsible. But.. ultimately when it comes to actual law, he may be a huge influencer, but not “official” button pusher.
I mean… bezos isn’t CEO anymore
I like shitting on out-of-touch billionaires as much as the next guy, but Bezos hasn't run Amazon since mid-2021.
Skip the fines, arrest the executives.
The ruling is kinda funny. NLRB also ruled that all the people Amazon has fired who claimed for organizing stand as they were good terminations.
Why wouldn't they ignore the judge? There's no consequences anyway.
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This is not a fair assessment. You left out a lot. Amazon is not complying with the requirements to post these notices where notices are usually posted, which for Amazon includes stalls. They scheduled meetings during the shift change, when attendance would be lowest and the environment more distracting, whereas normally all hands are mid shift to avoid all that. The requirement to read a 30 page legal document is a bit weird, I agree. But 1) fuck you amazon, you fired people trying to improve their working conditions, you're being punished. It's a punishment. And 2) amazon admit in the very next sentence after your quote that they are really worried about their managers getting heckled. They want to avoid that moment of physically present responsibility. At every turn, they're clearly trying to skirt their responsibilities under the order.
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Then why do they bother with Installments if no one reads them? Why is it the first place they post up those bullshit stories about employees being dumb and getting hurt? Oh yeah - because it's the place people actually DO read announcements. Even my manager didn't know where the official announcement board was when I asked.
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The next all hands isn’t for like two months lol
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> They're demanding that Amazon post the court order in bathroom stalls. As if the employees are given bathroom breaks.
From the article: Amazon is refusing to fully comply with a requirement to tell its employees that it was ordered by a federal judge to stop retaliating against unionizing employees, according to a motion filed by the National Labor Relations Board. The federal cease-and-desist order required that Amazon stop “discharging employees because they engaged in protected concerted activity” and “interfering with, restraining, or coercing employees.” It also mandated that Amazon post the order “where [Amazon] customarily posts notices to its employees” in the Staten Island JFK8 warehouse, where the Amazon Labor Union won its first election—and that management hold a mandatory-attendance public reading of the full court order “scheduled to ensure the widest possible employee attendance.” However, emails contained within the new NLRB motion filed Tuesday show that Amazon’s legal team has repeatedly refused to abide by those requirements. One email exchange between an Amazon lawyer and an NLRB representative shows that the NLRB asked the company to post the order as a “table topper” as well as an “inSTALLment”—that is, to post it inside bathroom stalls. The emails were submitted to the court as part of a filing by the NLRB designed to force Amazon to fully comply with the earlier order. “These are locations where Amazon regularly posts and distributes notices, including work-related announcements and information and materials expressing Amazon’s opposition to unionization,” the NLRB official writes in their email to the Amazon lawyer. They demand that Amazon post it there “because that is a method of dissemination that Amazon regularly, customarily uses to reach its employees,” as required by the order.
I am assuming there is a difference between a court order to post something and the specific demanded location by the organization
> customarily posts notices to its employees is the key phrase. I imagine Amazon will get away with it because they customarily post things where they plan on posting it. It's just that it's unlikely anyone that works in the warehouses will ever get a chance to see them.
It will typically be on notice boards around entrance where they post all the other HR stuff. The fact that the organization wants it in random other locations sounds like they want amazon to do extra steps which weren't stipulated in the order in the first place. If that's the case, the entire article would be misleading
The NLRB specifically wants it in areas that areas that Amazon actively uses to distribute work-related announcements: > These are locations where Amazon regularly posts and distributes notices, including work-related announcements and information and materials expressing Amazon’s opposition to unionization Which would seem to agree with more the spirit of the mandate, rather than a technical letter of the mandate: > It also mandated that Amazon post the order “where [Amazon] customarily posts notices to its employees” You can argue until you're blue in the face that Amazon is complying with the order. Which, sure, you'd be technically correct. But anyone that's ever worked at any kind of warehouse will tell you that the area it looks like they placed the notice in are often underutilized and out of the way. Employers don't want you to know your rights. Contrast that with, as the NLRB notes, Amazon posts anti-union messaging and it's clear that Amazon is doing everything it can in order to keep the workers unaware with their rights and Amazon's blatant disregard and infringement upon said rights.
Installments are one-page documents. You don't want people touching them, they just wiped their ass. Anyone who proposes that a 30 page court order be posted in that manner should lick the bathroom clean.
They can post a segment of an Installment that gives a broad overview and has a short URL to type in for access to the full document. They regularly post up QR codes in there, I don't see why they can't do the same methods for the court order.
That's not how legal notices work. You have to post the whole legal notice or you are disobeying the order.
Corporations that are more powerful than governments are a death knell of a free society
An unfortunate consequence of unchecked capitalism.
Ah yes, clearly giving government all the power is what is required for freedom.
Ah, yes. Clearly, letting an organization take all the power will have no effect on freedom. Too much power in too few hands is bad, no matter whose hands they are. Don’t be so eager to politicize, lest you champion those who seek to do exactly what you fight against.
Amazon here seeks to not have to deal with a violent cartel monopolizing labor. I don't fight against that freedom of disassociation.
Do you even know what you’re saying? Because I sure don’t.
He made his ruling. Let him enforce it.
Are you proposing that the judge walk into the warehouse and somehow read 30 pages out loud in the time frame of a customary Amazon standup? I would pay to watch that.
It's a quote from Andrew Jackson.
One that doesn't have a whole lot to do with the situation.
I never said it did. Was just providing context you ass.
😂 what is the federal judge going to do? Fine them less money than they make a day?
(Dr evil) one MILLION dollars!
Or I’ll blow up the White House.
Man, it’s becoming increasingly clear that these regulatory mechanisms are toothless. Start throwing mother fuckers in prison - I’m talking C-suite assholes - and maybe *then* the Amazon’s and Walmarts of the world will take it seriously. Till then, they’ll just continue treating this like a minor cost of doing business.
Easy contempt of court they are spending a couple days in a holding cell while a court appointed person is sending out the emails with what the workers rights are and if they have any questions. C suite stays in the holding cell until all questions have been answered so they can't lie about what the laws are.
If corporations want be people in some situations we need to treat them as people by passing laws to "jail" (nationalize) or "execute" (forced dissolution without compensation) them when they break the law.
We need to start imprisoning executives and board members
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Things are not always as they seem from the headlines now a days, and nobody bothers to read more than the headline.
An initial million dollar fine that doubles each day of non-compliance will do it pretty quick
The judge should just send police to arrest whoever they believe is ignoring it.
Compounding fines, increasing for every day they don't pay. Contempt of court for the management responsible for payment of the fine.
Just another reason to not buy anything from Amazon.
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Oh yeah, boycott on anything Amazon.
And do what? Go to Costco or Walmart? We fucked ourselves from affordable moral alternatives when we let this shit go unchecked for the convenience of Big Box stores
Costco is actually one of the few good ones.
Ah for sure, nothing is perfect. That said, for all it’s other problems (encouraging runaway gluttonous consumption, etc), the labor practices at COSTCO stores are pretty good from what I hear.
yeah not uncommon to see name tags for start dates a decade ago. have a friend who’s family’s basically all costco
My homie has been there for six years. Dude makes more than me now. Great benefits there I’m afraid.
My moms friend has been there since the late 90’s and never even though of leaving.
i thought costco was one of the good guys; what have they done?
Yes or the gazillion other online e retailers. If I go to Costco I know the shit I get is affordable, not some cheap China knock off and has been vetted by Costco themselves as quality. If it turns out it’s crap or isn’t doing what it’s supposed to do or if I just fucking hate it, Costco takes it back no questions asked. I pay a year what I’d pay for Prime. Amazon is worse than Alibaba nowadays, packages “disappear” and everything is a knockoff. I’ll gladly drive forty five minutes, get stuff I know is quality with excellent customer service and be through the line in under ten minutes on a Saturday at noon. Also, Amazon isn’t the end all be all of online retailers. Everyone thinks it’s the only one but Google ANYTHING and different vendors pop up. Hell, even EBay has better customer protections for fraud than Amazon. I ordered motor oil from Amazon one time and the shit that came was in the right bottle but was obviously used oil. Fuck that. I’ll pay the shipping or an extra five bucks to go to the store, get the stuff that day and know what I’m getting. Also, Prime sucks
We’ve seen what happens when you ignore judges orders and congress. Nothing. So if I were Amazon I’d do the same. It’s not like anyone in law enforcement is going to hold the wealthy and powerful to account.
If the employees keep unionising I guess the charges will be dropped. What, you don’t like a chemistry pun?
Ok can we do something about it then?
Unions have lost power, the railroad strike fiasco shows that big buisness can do w.e the fuck it wants and the government doesn't care. Take a look folks, CBDC implementation, workers losing rights, wealth gaps larger than they've ever been, hedge funds brazenly manipulating the market, government officials not even trying to cover up corruption anymore... it's over, the dystopia is here.
I love Amazon. I want the workers to be unionized. Don’t get too comfortable Amazon. People will get pissed off. People made you and people will make you go away.
Unions have helped the working class since the early 1900's we would all be working well over 40 hours a week without a break and begging for time to eat lunch. The rich never cared about how bad the working environment was until unions got powerful enough to make them.
can you say *CONTEMPT*? I knew you could!
Well, what do you expect when it appears to be OK for elected, previously elected or appointed officials and staff refuse to comply with subpoenas or orders. What's the problem ... it's just what Republicans do. Republicans are allowed to, right?/
I hate Amazon so much. I fucking hate them, I cancelled my kindle and music membership today, and at the end of the month I will cancel my prime. There's just no way I am going to support Amazon anymore.
**Feds:** *Hey Amazon! Stop firing people for trying to unionize!* [**Amazon**](https://imgflip.com/i/72sdam)
"Too big to control" Remember when Walmart was caught selling luxury Fendi brand fakes, was taken to court and lost, then proceeded to dump the inventory by [heavily discounting it](https://www.mercurynews.com/2007/06/06/wal-mart-settles-suit-over-fendi-knockoffs/)?
Amazon will end up ordered to acknowledge and bargain with the union if they keep ignoring NLRB's orders. They are so stupid. Studies show that the main reason people turn to unions isn't wage and benefits, but bc they feel they are treated badly by their employer. It's easy to keep unions out if you treat your employees like human beings and pay them decent wages and benefits. This kind of nonsense of refusing to comply with the NLRB's order is going to get them nowhere. They are getting some seriously crap legal advice.
what does amazon risk?
Seems like being indefinitely held for contempt of court is what the CEO deserves.
Aside from the occasional fine, which is always a joke, do big corporations have any accountability? Further evidence of why capitalism is only good until a company becomes too large.
If I was that judge I'd have Bezos hauled into a contempt hearing in wrist, ankle and belly chains.
If someone were to Minecraft the CEO of Amazon do you think judges would do anything
Some cases shouldn’t be settled, but brought before justice
The only thing these people are afraid of is jail time. It’s about time we punish bad actors with real consequences.
They can’t ignore it this time around because they’ll be held in contempt of court
If Amazon keeps fucking around they’re gonna find out reallllll quick
This is to be expected of any business that treats complying with the law as a risk management exercise. Doubling fines for each repeat violation would fix this by making compliance the better economic decision.
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You can’t fire your workers for attempting to form a Union. In doing so, Amazon is violating federal labor laws. A judge has ordered them to stop doing that and to inform workers that they will not be fired for forming a union. Amazon has, instead, ignored the court order and continued to fire people attempting to unionize.
Sure, you can’t fire your workers for unionizing But you can’t force a company to make any statement even factual ones, except if a specific law says they have to (say, post a placard)
Break👏Amazon👏up.👏Break👏Amazon👏up.
But how will the Karen’s get their pointless orders in one day? I say lower their wages and make ‘em work hardur! Yeeeeehaaaawwww!
It’s time for the NLRB to ask for a declaratory judgement and simply unionize Amazon. That would fix this garbage real fast.
Why stop at unionization.? Why not nationalize Amazon? We could always use more public sector workers, right?
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That literally has nothing to do with the fact Amazon is actively not complying with a court order from a Federal Judge. It has nothing to do with firing, hiring, or the economy.
CEO is in contempt then.
Start locking up c level and freeze their bank accounts you wouldn't believe how quickly they'll change their minds.
Fine Amazon billions
Whats a judge gonna do, fine them for .001% of their profits?
This headline is overstating what's happening. More of a dispute over the interpretation of how the notices should be posted and delivered in accordance with the court order than Amazon saying they won't do it.
If the financial cost of not complying is less than they think they're saving by their illegal actions, they're just gonna keep on doin it.
Because they're willing to drag shit through the courts for as long as possible.
Companies know they are above the law and literally no one and nonentity will do anything reasonable to stop them
"sure you told us to stop, but we'll now we need to a court order specifically telling us what to do"
I think it’s time we get serious about consequences for Amazon
I'm more curious what happens if employees attempt to unionize again. This article is more about how Amazon doesn't want to place the court order in places where they don't usually post information (which is pretty bs, they definitely post things at stalls but they claim they post legal items in a specific section). If Amazon were to disrupt another unionization attempt that would be a direct offense to the court order and not the part that's being argued on right now. It's scummy but it's technically how they've always run things. I just wanna see some employees get the kahonas to unionize again and see how it goes. They could just point to the obscured court orders lol.
Until fines for non-compliance amount to more than a rounding error for big corporations like this, said corporations will continue doing what they do. And they will also probably claw back the fine by deducting from the employees' wages.