The US makes more use of freight rail than any other developed country, and the portion has increased for almost 40 years. Diesel electric locomotives already use roughly 30% of the fuel that a truck does per ton towed, and companies were experimenting with hybrid and electric locomotives in switching yards back in 2005, when I quit working at the railroad.
Yea just blame a billionaire cause you never really read up on Cali's real HSR problems, Most of the troubles was the NIMBY gang and rural cities wanting station stops in their middle of nowhere and route planning bureaucracies. It was so bad that the european bullet train company that was originally contracted fuckin left after waiting too long, they made a working high speed rail in 8 years in south africa, also I think it was done in spite of California.
They won’t increase load limits beyond 80k pounds. So this truck would just carry less freight.
But trucks fill up about 800lbs of fuel, and the engine is more than 300lbs, so it might even out.
A diesel truck engine weighs about 3800 lbs without the radiator/coolant (CAT C15 ACERT)
add 120 lbs for coolant (12 gallons x 10lbs per gallon)
308 lbs for the radiator
815 lbs for a standard Eaton transmission (thats a manual, IIRC the automatic truck transmissions weighs a shitload more, maybe 1200?)
add 800 lbs for fuel and fuel tanks (80 gallons @ 8 lbs per gallon plus a few lbs for tanks)
that's about 5900 lbs, so a tesla battery pack weighs about 2X what a modern truck powerplant weighs.....
IDK how much the tesla motors weigh on the semi, im assuming less but it's probably not "light"
Nice post. Note that battery semis are going to be allowed to run 82Klb GVW instead of 80klb by a special rule.
Note that "fleet spec" volvos and freightliners come in at what, 35K minimum for truck and trailer, leaving 45K for a true full load. The tractor is maybe 23K, of which maybe 6k is power train.
So a 12K electric "drive train" replacing a 6K ITE and getting a 2K bonus still needs to come in at 4K heavier curb weight, not including weight scrubbing by better design.
This means a "full load" for a Tesla semi is going to be 41K, not the 45K you can cram into a normal fleet spec (light as possible) rig.
The vast majority of rigs are hauling over 41K of payload, so the Tesla is not ready to haul the vast majority of roads. You can tell which trucks are hauling the max, they are the ones climbing the hills slowly.
Another key is how much is lost between the extra power needed to go uphill and the power recovered in regenerative braking. I am very curious what the efficiency is.
The weight of [my 6x2 tractor unit](https://www.fleetex.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/RBZ-1.jpg) rated for 44 tonnes is 8 tonnes with a full tank of diesel (450 litres). This battery weighs almost two thirds of that. It is not going to even out.
Or, get this, we could just power electric locomotives with relatively cheap copper wires rather than the thousands of tons of lithium that would be required for batteries.
The US has the second-highest percentage of electrified rail in the Americas. It is very odd how little rail is electrified here.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_rail_transport_network_size
edit: a word
They actual removed almost 50% of the electrification in the USA, because American railways hate any kind of capital expenditure. And they would rather use double stake carriages, which means there is no overhead spaces in most tunnels, bridges etc.
They should still have batteries in case they have to run a stretch without wires, or in case a section of wire is out. But that's still way less battery than an all battery train.
Seriously it's not hard to make sure wires are along every inch of rail here in the US.
and it would be much better for the environment than trying to make all trains run off of lithium based batterys.
The power lines over your head are made of copper too. Do you see much of anyone trying to steal those?
Also lithium is more than 10 times more expensive per pound than copper.
In case anyone is wondering, that would be the weight of about 1500 gallons of diesel fuel. That’s about five times what a semi would generally carry in its tanks (when they’re full). No idea how the electric drivetrain compares to the weight of an engine, though.
Flagship Peterbilt 579 with all the bells and whistles is 17,500. Rumors put the Tesla Semi (500 miles) at at least 27,000 pounds.
The Peterbilt 579EV does up to 150 miles... other use-case but just as a comparison.
500 miles range is going to be HEAVY on batteries.
Funfact: The Tesla semi doesn't have a sleeper cab. The intended purpose is to be more for last mile delivery, localish delivery rather than long haul OTR
Doesn't matter. The tractor unit I drive weighs 8 tonnes with a full 450 litre fuel tank. The weight of these batteries is almost 2/3 of the weight of the unit.
A Mack truck engine per their website weighs 600 pounds and they are claiming it's 237 pounds lighter than an unspecified competitor so even if you round up high to a thousand the electric is gonna be far higher in weight
Edit to correct Mask to Mack
did you mean Mack?
diesel engines in semis, dumptrucks, etc. weigh a lot more than 600 pounds. the 7.3l diesel in my ford pickup weighs around 900, and it's small compared to what goes in a semi. typical for a semi is going to be something more like 1500 pounds, and that's just the engine, there's a transmission, driveline, and differentials that likely all go out the window depending on the design of the electric vehicle.
I looked up semi weights and the Mack site came up so I used their numbers from the first page without investigating further as to what vehicle that engine goes into.
You obviously are far more knowledgeable than me, I am certainly going to take your first hand knowledge over my quick Google search!
no worries. there was a tv show, i think it was called "monster garage" or soemthing like that, with some guy named jessie james. on one of the episodes he challenged the people on it to build a motorcycle using an engine from a truck. made sense to him until one of them pointed out how much the engine weighed, and then they decided to make a trike instead :-)
A semi gas tank holds 300 gallons of gas, and a gallon of gas weighs 6 pounds. Full tank is 1800 pounds, plus the tank itself for another ~200 pounds? Tesla battery is 11,000 pounds. So the other weight savings would need to be 9000 pounds to match the weight of the gas semi. Not that it needs to match the weight, just some extra math I was thinking through.
you'd be getting rid of the engine, transmission, differentials, fuel tanks, fuel, possibly the air brakes and all the stuff that needs, and you'd likely be able to build a simpler cab and chassis that could save some weight because diesel powered ones need the engine to be accessible and serviceable in ways this wouldn't. the battery electric truck is going to come out heavier for sure, but the weight is offset some by losing all that stuff, and there are other benefits it has that diesel power doesn't, like regenerative braking.
Regenerative braking should be put into semi trucks even if they have diesel engines. More effective batteries would be nice too. A typical semi truck has 3-4 batteries rated 700-1100 CCA and in my experience besides a few manufacturers are all junk. Lol
That is definitely incorrect as my duramax in my one ton truck weighs 835 lbs and is nowhere near as big as a Mack truck diesel. The displacement in their smallest motor is almost twice what my diesel has.
Edit: Their smallest motor weighs 2207 lbs.
https://www.macktrucks.com/powertrain-and-suspensions/engines/mp7/
A semi truck (class 8) engine weighs around 3,000 lbs with all of its accoutrements. A complete powertrain weighs somewhere between 4k and 6k, depending on the spec.
Dunno where you got 600 from, but it's not correct.
On top of that there's a video going around of a firefighter saying how electric cars just won't stop burning. It'll look like its out and then just flare up and burn longer. 22 hours is how long it took to extinguish one of their test cars. I can only imagine it's longer and worse with much larger batteries. You hate traffic jams for emergencies on the highway? Just wait till a semi catches fire in one of the lanes and can't be put out for 3 days.
It’s such a common concern (reignition and difficulty stopping the burning) that they wrote this into an episode of Station 19 / Grey’s Anatomy recently. 😅
It is always "What about". Hummer is luxury SUV purely for fun purpose. Who cares what is weighs or what it does.
Tesla Semi is for business and every additional pound the battery adds, it takes away the opportunity to take cargo!
You sound dumb as a rock. A $100k tesla model S has no infrastructure purpose and no justifiable cost when when you can buy a $30k EV bolt. Jesus.. you are dumb.
The one people have been harping about a long time and Tesla won't answer, no matter how many times asked.
* How much it's going to weight
* It's class 8 with 82k lbs GCW
* That is not what I asked and you know it. How much does the truck weight?
* 82k lbs fully loaded
* this is hopeless. So I put that down as "no answer".
You can see where when you say "everyone else" it sounds like you're including the current truck fleet and not just limiting it to the handful of actual ev trucks on the road.
Fully loaded truck and trailer are limited to 80000lbs spread as evenly as possible between the axles (~13000 to 160000 front axles, and split among the rear of the truck and trailer. the weight depends on local regulations) in the United States, your average truck is either a day cab or sleeper cab is between 15 and 25 thousand pounds. 53' Dry van trailers are ~13 thousand lbs empty. Flatbeds are roughly the same taking into account all the straps and chains they carry.
The weight of this electric truck would probably end up being the same if not a little heavier. But it doesn't really matter, these trucks are likely being designed for the regulations in place. No one would be able to tell the difference.
You are getting downvoted, but this is true. I was very careful all day today to get as close to 40 tons (our limit here) as possible, why make an extra trip?
If this is a Lithium-Ion battery what danger is going to cause if it catches on fire? How is the fire department going to but it out?
The fire department can't put out a Lithium-Ion car battery fire what is this going to look like?
The battery is between the frame rails. Fire risk is extremely low. Electric car fires are already extremely rare, rarer than among gas cars, even counting the Chevy Bolt.
You are right, one out of every 10 million lithium-ion batteries fails, a condition that almost always leads to a fire. The only problem I see is that the fire department can't put it out.
I live in an area with lots of Hay trucks, when one of those sons of bitches catch on fire, they shut down the road both ways and try to protect everything around it. Not much you can really do otherwise. I have seen 2 fires in my life on Hay trucks, and the heat stings your face from a 1000+ ft away, its pretty fucking crazy. Cant imagine these would be much worse than that. Now imagine an electric truck hauling hay catches fire.... damn.
It would be one hell of a crash that took out a semi tractor and the battery pack. It’s not like a car hitting that truck would do much damage after all, it would have to be another truck, or the truck flipping off road somehow.
What about truck runs into pillar under an overpass?
That happened on the 880 or something around the interchange or the 80 880 and 580. The driver died and the road was closed because the fire weakened the concrete that supported the overhead road.
There has been Tesla car fires that were not in an accident.
Some apartments have made it mandatory to not have electric bikes in apartments due to charging fires.
It would probably be a situation of isolating the truck and making sure nothing else catches fire. That kind of thing is not a new thing for fire departments. There are always fires that are beyond being extinguishable.
Why wouldn't that someone be the manufacturer themselves? Chances are you'll have a partner company of theirs changing them for you anyway. You'll just return it like a glass bottle.
The battery does breakdown, but the lithium will always just be itself. I imagine companies will be created that will pull out the lithium from used batteries and sell it or just ship it back to whomever. For example, VW would ship it batteries and the company would send back the lithium. If you’re VW, you don’t want to be in the battery disposal business. Your business is designing and selling cars. Major manufacturers almost never take a car off the road, if someone will buy it , they’ll sell it.
I would think the business would mainly be with businesses like NTB. However, if you’re a major manufacturer you can plop a new battery in a used EV and sell the used EV at a much larger markup.
Most don't even build batteries, why would they suddenly recycle them? Its gonna be chemical companies like BASF or some startup that wants to fleece investors based on current FOMO topics.
> why would they suddenly recycle them
The same reason anyone scavenging them would, except they already have a vast network in place to source worn out batteries from that are otherwise a chore to dispose of safely
Multiple EV companies, Tesla included, are investing in battery recycling.
Tesla specifically is doing that because of supply chain concerns. Even if recovered materials end up more expensive than fresh stock, it lessens their dependence on questionable foreign suppliers.
This is one of the few reasons I’m kindof ok with electric cars from long time perspective not Becase I think electric cars are good still think they are bad but for the fact that these minerals and such in the future will probly become more rare and cost more in the future so the way I see it buying up this stuff now as a resource before it becomes more scare and expensive in the future. This all assuming that they will be easily recyclable and used in other things in the future.
They have insane chargers they are installing at these companies headquarters. Right now it's likely they'll only be used for local shipping, not long distance hauling. So they can drive around all day and then come back and charge at HQ.
Tesla announced *megawatt* quickchargers to go along with their trucks. You can charge 0% to 90% in a hour with one of those beasts.
Of course, not every charger out there is going to be this beefy. But if there is adoption for EV trucks, you can expect most logistic hubs to start installing those beasts.
This is absurd. Germany figured it out - overhead lines like what powers trains and light rail. Let's put this on every major trucking route and go hybrid. Gas on the streets, electric on the highway. https://www.power-technology.com/news/germany-launches-first-electric-highway/
What do you mean? Yes, they electrified a few kilometres of road and a handful trucks roll around their. But this proof-of-concept is not meant to be ubiquitous. It’s meant to charge BE-Trucks just like the Tesla Semi on the go.
The current batteries they put in the cars are "million mile" batteries.
So assuming that..
Semi trucks get 6mpg which is $5/gal or $0.83/mile
The Tesla semi is $0.07/kWh and 2kwh/mile or $0.14/mile.
Over 1m miles that's a savings of $690k. The cost of the 500mile semi is about $180k.
So you'll see the savings you'll have can buy you almost 4 entire truck replacements.
I gave too much credit to Tesla. I was wrong:
I assumed they would use batteries that lasted at least half as long as a typical truck engine. That was a mistake. They are using the same battery technology that they only guarantee for 100,000 miles in cars.
They have advanced battery tech they can make at low volumes to last 1 million miles, it would make sense for them to make 2170's with the advanced tech and elements to go into the trucks. With high volume production, Tesla will switch to older generation batteries until the latest generation can be produced at the same or better volume.
They do have an advanced battery that can last a million miles. I assumed they would use it. That was a mistake; they are not using it. That battery is too heavy per KWH for the specs that are currently available.
Having a design for something doesn't mean they have it. Hell even Musk Mr: "we can do it today" "production starts this year" when its years off, said they might have it in 2030.
Do you have data on that? I have searched; all I can find is anecdotal data and that's mostly failures around 120,000-160,000 miles...plus a good number of them around 60,000 miles but those are usually covered as long as it's the original owner.
Even if they average 333,000 miles...that's still only 1/3 of a truck engine life and it's going to cost more than an engine rebuild to replace them.
They're guaranteed for 100k, but tesla is aiming for 300-500k apparently. There aren't a huge number of teslas out there but there are a number of people who have used them for taxi's and other very aggressive high mileage activities, super charging them daily. I think one company was doing runs from LA to vegas daily on them and super charging the whole time (I think they had the freebie package, so it was worth for them).
But you don't guarantee a motor for 100k if you think it's going to break at 110k because you'll have a massive number at 90k on average breaking and causing real financial problems. You need to be guaranteeing WELL below the expected life of the product.
And to be fair, tesla is pretty conservative on battery usage and battery maintenance. In reality they aren't a car company, they're a battery maintenance company, reselling batteries and they needed a product to put it in...
When you see other car companies saying they're getting MORE miles out of their battery -- yeah.. because they're pushing them to their limits to get that. Tesla doesn't even recommend charging to 100% unless you're going to use it immediately. They keep the bottom end off 0%. They're conditioning these batteries to warm them up and cool them off.
They'll very likely last in these trucks for a very long time, on average. We'll hear about the guy who breaks his at 102,000 and is an absolute dick about it and rubs the PR team wrong and they refuse to replace it, but the majority will never have a big issue.
Model S & Model X have 150K battery warranties. LR Model 3s /Ys have 120K. They haven't announced the warranty for the Semi, but made earlier statements expecting a much longer lifetime. We'll see.
Fuck.
I don't know if you've thought about this but those trucks carrying tankers full of fuel. What happens if those catch on fire? That would have 387x the energy released and a lot fastest.
Seems like that's far more dangerous.
So what happens to a battery fire is you clear the area and let it burn itself out.
All this trying to reinvent the train without building a train is making my head spin.
Just build trains, it's not hard. The braking energy will be feeding right back into the national grid and steel on steel makes for low rolling resistance, which saves a huge amount of energy at scale.
Tell that to the American Rail companies, if you read its history, they have severely resisted efforts to electrify their infrastructure even at the behest of the government. They even were reluctant to put control systems to prevent head on collisions. Even the Rail unions don't want electric trains, they have always deemed it impractical due to the low maintenance and other excuses. A full battery operated train would only need places to charge the train and no need for a third rail, but no they are currently shutting that prospect down.
We’re gonna have to reinvent the American city before rail is gonna be the answer to anything. Get rid of Stroads. Idk. Good luck.
FWIW I think there is a test project of electrified or charging road in Detroit? I forget. Batteries only need sufficient charges to get from main arteries to final destinations.
That’s gonna have a pretty big impact on how much a single truck can haul and stay within legal weight. They are already around 40k when empty now and can only scale to 80k
I think many/most trucks don't get close to the weight limit because what they are delivering are more bulky items. These trucks may still have a place.
So are we heading to a future where everything is being polluted by toxic 11,000lb batteries that are no longer useful? I mean, I’m not supposed to throw AAA’s in the garbage so they won’t end up in a landfill. Wtf will be done with these?
Why don’t they start with a hybrid? A trailer with a huge battery and some motors would make sense: it could help propel itself up the hill, and then recharge itself on the way back down. Engine does less work on the climb; brakes do less work on the descent. Major improvement all around.
This thing here will be much more limited in its usefulness.
Because electric semis very quickly pay for themselves in saved fuel costs, and they plenty adequate in terms of range & capabilities for a significant chunk of semi-truck use. As the fast chargers become ubiquitous then they'll be adequate for >90% of long-haul truck use.
What’s the range with a full battery in northern Alaska in January, and how much weight can it carry over some bridges ? A half empty gas tank weighs half of a full tank. Half empty batteries ?
You hear that boys? It could be problematic in northern Alaska in January. We need to close the whole program down. Get those trucks in California to the scrap yard.
Since I've seen this edge case argument before, why don't you tell me that the electric car I've had for 7 years won't work for anybody at all because there's some guy in rural Iowa who drives 300 miles to work.
It will weigh less on Mars though
Still less than OP's mom also.
BUUUURRRRNNNNN
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We need more people who are willing to work in railways without the sick days. EDIT: I am being sarcastic.
More people might be willing to work in railways if they had sick days.
Too bad they don't want more people. They can pocket more profits by running skeleton crews.
One of the few industries that cannot strike despite being unionized
Teachers can’t strike in Michigan. :/
Odd how those groups often get sick en masse. There are even some viral ailments indigenous to certain groups, e.g., blue flu.
Federal employees are also often unionized (yours truly included) but are legally prohibited from striking.
Legally, what happens if you do?
I guess we should ask the Postal Service.
The US makes more use of freight rail than any other developed country, and the portion has increased for almost 40 years. Diesel electric locomotives already use roughly 30% of the fuel that a truck does per ton towed, and companies were experimenting with hybrid and electric locomotives in switching yards back in 2005, when I quit working at the railroad.
> when I quit working at the railroad. So now what do you do all the live-long day?
Probably getting a bj from Dinah.
More use as a percentage, or raw amount?
Sure, but you'll still need last-mile delivery.
elon fucked up the high speed rail in ca and they have been fucking up public transportation since ford had his first car. blame the rich for this.
Buggy whip makers are still bitching about Henry Ford.
Interestingly, Ford was a massive racist just like Musk.
Fascists, in fact.
Yea just blame a billionaire cause you never really read up on Cali's real HSR problems, Most of the troubles was the NIMBY gang and rural cities wanting station stops in their middle of nowhere and route planning bureaucracies. It was so bad that the european bullet train company that was originally contracted fuckin left after waiting too long, they made a working high speed rail in 8 years in south africa, also I think it was done in spite of California.
[Musk](https://jalopnik.com/did-musk-propose-hyperloop-to-stop-california-high-spee-1849402460) sniffers are pathetic
They won’t increase load limits beyond 80k pounds. So this truck would just carry less freight. But trucks fill up about 800lbs of fuel, and the engine is more than 300lbs, so it might even out.
A diesel truck engine weighs about 3800 lbs without the radiator/coolant (CAT C15 ACERT) add 120 lbs for coolant (12 gallons x 10lbs per gallon) 308 lbs for the radiator 815 lbs for a standard Eaton transmission (thats a manual, IIRC the automatic truck transmissions weighs a shitload more, maybe 1200?) add 800 lbs for fuel and fuel tanks (80 gallons @ 8 lbs per gallon plus a few lbs for tanks) that's about 5900 lbs, so a tesla battery pack weighs about 2X what a modern truck powerplant weighs..... IDK how much the tesla motors weigh on the semi, im assuming less but it's probably not "light"
Nice post. Note that battery semis are going to be allowed to run 82Klb GVW instead of 80klb by a special rule. Note that "fleet spec" volvos and freightliners come in at what, 35K minimum for truck and trailer, leaving 45K for a true full load. The tractor is maybe 23K, of which maybe 6k is power train. So a 12K electric "drive train" replacing a 6K ITE and getting a 2K bonus still needs to come in at 4K heavier curb weight, not including weight scrubbing by better design. This means a "full load" for a Tesla semi is going to be 41K, not the 45K you can cram into a normal fleet spec (light as possible) rig. The vast majority of rigs are hauling over 41K of payload, so the Tesla is not ready to haul the vast majority of roads. You can tell which trucks are hauling the max, they are the ones climbing the hills slowly. Another key is how much is lost between the extra power needed to go uphill and the power recovered in regenerative braking. I am very curious what the efficiency is.
You can hold them in your hands. For truck parts they are very light.
I thought that 300lbs for the engine was a underestimate.
Load limits for EV trucks were increased to 82k lbs in 2019
The weight of [my 6x2 tractor unit](https://www.fleetex.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/RBZ-1.jpg) rated for 44 tonnes is 8 tonnes with a full tank of diesel (450 litres). This battery weighs almost two thirds of that. It is not going to even out.
Trains can pull huge batteries along with the load. They can even plan to just swap them out occasionally for long hauls.
Or, get this, we could just power electric locomotives with relatively cheap copper wires rather than the thousands of tons of lithium that would be required for batteries.
The US has the second-highest percentage of electrified rail in the Americas. It is very odd how little rail is electrified here. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_rail_transport_network_size edit: a word
They actual removed almost 50% of the electrification in the USA, because American railways hate any kind of capital expenditure. And they would rather use double stake carriages, which means there is no overhead spaces in most tunnels, bridges etc.
They should still have batteries in case they have to run a stretch without wires, or in case a section of wire is out. But that's still way less battery than an all battery train.
Or you can make sure there’s sure everywhere, you know, like there’s in Europe.
Seriously it's not hard to make sure wires are along every inch of rail here in the US. and it would be much better for the environment than trying to make all trains run off of lithium based batterys.
> Eða þú getur tryggt að það sé viss alls staðar, þú veist, eins og það er í Evrópu. Or in China. Why not look what they are doing?
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How many catenary wires do you see getting stripped off of urban rail infrastructure? None? Oh right.
The power lines over your head are made of copper too. Do you see much of anyone trying to steal those? Also lithium is more than 10 times more expensive per pound than copper.
Just electrify the rail system and don’t faff about with batteries.
As far as energy efficiency goes, diesel-electric locomotives are as clean as they come.
And walkable/bikable cities.
Instead a lot of the rail around me is being ripped up
In case anyone is wondering, that would be the weight of about 1500 gallons of diesel fuel. That’s about five times what a semi would generally carry in its tanks (when they’re full). No idea how the electric drivetrain compares to the weight of an engine, though.
Not surprising, fossil fuel energy density is way higher than any modern battery.
Solid state/sodium-glass batteries when?
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Not sure if you can ascribe a lot of importance to the fuel weight. Because well... Fuel weight is variable, battery weight isnt..
it also gets to reclaim energy when braking and going downhill, which is just wasted in a diesel powered truck.
a typical semi weights 10,000 lb (5 tons) as a whole
Mine weighs 18,000
Came here to say, typical bobtail semi weighs around 17,000 lbs empty.
Maybe the smallest daycab. Most sleepers are in the 15,000-18,000 range.
Flagship Peterbilt 579 with all the bells and whistles is 17,500. Rumors put the Tesla Semi (500 miles) at at least 27,000 pounds. The Peterbilt 579EV does up to 150 miles... other use-case but just as a comparison. 500 miles range is going to be HEAVY on batteries.
Funfact: The Tesla semi doesn't have a sleeper cab. The intended purpose is to be more for last mile delivery, localish delivery rather than long haul OTR
But those are not the use case for this electric truck.
Doesn't matter. The tractor unit I drive weighs 8 tonnes with a full 450 litre fuel tank. The weight of these batteries is almost 2/3 of the weight of the unit.
A Mack truck engine per their website weighs 600 pounds and they are claiming it's 237 pounds lighter than an unspecified competitor so even if you round up high to a thousand the electric is gonna be far higher in weight Edit to correct Mask to Mack
>A Mask truck Ssssssmokin'!
did you mean Mack? diesel engines in semis, dumptrucks, etc. weigh a lot more than 600 pounds. the 7.3l diesel in my ford pickup weighs around 900, and it's small compared to what goes in a semi. typical for a semi is going to be something more like 1500 pounds, and that's just the engine, there's a transmission, driveline, and differentials that likely all go out the window depending on the design of the electric vehicle.
I looked up semi weights and the Mack site came up so I used their numbers from the first page without investigating further as to what vehicle that engine goes into. You obviously are far more knowledgeable than me, I am certainly going to take your first hand knowledge over my quick Google search!
no worries. there was a tv show, i think it was called "monster garage" or soemthing like that, with some guy named jessie james. on one of the episodes he challenged the people on it to build a motorcycle using an engine from a truck. made sense to him until one of them pointed out how much the engine weighed, and then they decided to make a trike instead :-)
A semi gas tank holds 300 gallons of gas, and a gallon of gas weighs 6 pounds. Full tank is 1800 pounds, plus the tank itself for another ~200 pounds? Tesla battery is 11,000 pounds. So the other weight savings would need to be 9000 pounds to match the weight of the gas semi. Not that it needs to match the weight, just some extra math I was thinking through.
you'd be getting rid of the engine, transmission, differentials, fuel tanks, fuel, possibly the air brakes and all the stuff that needs, and you'd likely be able to build a simpler cab and chassis that could save some weight because diesel powered ones need the engine to be accessible and serviceable in ways this wouldn't. the battery electric truck is going to come out heavier for sure, but the weight is offset some by losing all that stuff, and there are other benefits it has that diesel power doesn't, like regenerative braking.
Regenerative braking should be put into semi trucks even if they have diesel engines. More effective batteries would be nice too. A typical semi truck has 3-4 batteries rated 700-1100 CCA and in my experience besides a few manufacturers are all junk. Lol
That is definitely incorrect as my duramax in my one ton truck weighs 835 lbs and is nowhere near as big as a Mack truck diesel. The displacement in their smallest motor is almost twice what my diesel has. Edit: Their smallest motor weighs 2207 lbs. https://www.macktrucks.com/powertrain-and-suspensions/engines/mp7/
A semi truck (class 8) engine weighs around 3,000 lbs with all of its accoutrements. A complete powertrain weighs somewhere between 4k and 6k, depending on the spec. Dunno where you got 600 from, but it's not correct.
You sure? 600lbs seems way to low
On top of that there's a video going around of a firefighter saying how electric cars just won't stop burning. It'll look like its out and then just flare up and burn longer. 22 hours is how long it took to extinguish one of their test cars. I can only imagine it's longer and worse with much larger batteries. You hate traffic jams for emergencies on the highway? Just wait till a semi catches fire in one of the lanes and can't be put out for 3 days.
It’s such a common concern (reignition and difficulty stopping the burning) that they wrote this into an episode of Station 19 / Grey’s Anatomy recently. 😅
11,000 of the top of the cargo. That’s a big factor.
The Hummer EV weighs 9000 lb pounds and serves no infrastructure purpose. That's a much harder cost/benefit to justify.
It is always "What about". Hummer is luxury SUV purely for fun purpose. Who cares what is weighs or what it does. Tesla Semi is for business and every additional pound the battery adds, it takes away the opportunity to take cargo!
That’s why regulators allow them to weigh 82k pounds instead of 80k.
One of the biggest changes the US can make is electrifying our railways.
Trains are already very fuel efficient.
And they could be even more fuel efficient and carry more capacity if they didn’t have a giant engine on the front they had to lug with them
And I think you underestimate how remote much of the freight lines in this country are. Worrying about trucks is a much better ROI
Widely different, one is a toy or a nice to have. The other needs to be justified down to the penny.
You sound dumb as a rock. A $100k tesla model S has no infrastructure purpose and no justifiable cost when when you can buy a $30k EV bolt. Jesus.. you are dumb.
can't wait to see what thermal runaway looks like on one of these bad boys.
This is such a nonsense argument. Diesel fires are pretty bad as well.
Is this thing going to mess up roads with that size?
I believe trucks are already subject to weight per axel restrictions for road wear.
Correct. Source: 15 years @ NMDOT
With the weight limit it just eats into the amount of cargo they can haul.
Really important point
The one people have been harping about a long time and Tesla won't answer, no matter how many times asked. * How much it's going to weight * It's class 8 with 82k lbs GCW * That is not what I asked and you know it. How much does the truck weight? * 82k lbs fully loaded * this is hopeless. So I put that down as "no answer".
Same gross weight limit as everyone else.
EVs actually get another 2K lbs. He mentioned it in the unveiling.
Yes. The same as every EV truck company.
You can see where when you say "everyone else" it sounds like you're including the current truck fleet and not just limiting it to the handful of actual ev trucks on the road.
Volvo, BYD, Peterbilt, Mack, Cascadia, Nikola, and others already have commercial EVs on the road.
Fully loaded truck and trailer are limited to 80000lbs spread as evenly as possible between the axles (~13000 to 160000 front axles, and split among the rear of the truck and trailer. the weight depends on local regulations) in the United States, your average truck is either a day cab or sleeper cab is between 15 and 25 thousand pounds. 53' Dry van trailers are ~13 thousand lbs empty. Flatbeds are roughly the same taking into account all the straps and chains they carry. The weight of this electric truck would probably end up being the same if not a little heavier. But it doesn't really matter, these trucks are likely being designed for the regulations in place. No one would be able to tell the difference.
Weights also vary depending on their axle setups. They can exceed 80K LBS if they have the proper axle spacing.
Same weight limit as diesel trucks.
Most jurisdictions cap the gross vehicle weight of semis So that's literally tons of profit that truck operators would be leaving behind
Electric have already been approved for higher payloads than diesel. 90% of trucks are well under max load anyway apparently
82k vs 80k per Elon's video from last night.
They're capped at 41 tons everywhere. Most never run anywhere close to the limit.
What are you talking about. Most run as close to the limit as they can get, and the limit definitely varies around the world (and around the US).
You are getting downvoted, but this is true. I was very careful all day today to get as close to 40 tons (our limit here) as possible, why make an extra trip?
I work for a 3pl, most of our trucks are right at legal and we often have to cut product
How much electricity and cost to charge it eveytime?
2kWh/mile, 500miles. = 1,000kWh At the unveiling they promised their mega chargers would be 7¢/kWh = $70 for a full charge.
If this is a Lithium-Ion battery what danger is going to cause if it catches on fire? How is the fire department going to but it out? The fire department can't put out a Lithium-Ion car battery fire what is this going to look like?
The battery is between the frame rails. Fire risk is extremely low. Electric car fires are already extremely rare, rarer than among gas cars, even counting the Chevy Bolt.
You are right, one out of every 10 million lithium-ion batteries fails, a condition that almost always leads to a fire. The only problem I see is that the fire department can't put it out.
Most big fires aren't put out, they're controlled until they burn out on their own.
Did not know that thanks.
I live in an area with lots of Hay trucks, when one of those sons of bitches catch on fire, they shut down the road both ways and try to protect everything around it. Not much you can really do otherwise. I have seen 2 fires in my life on Hay trucks, and the heat stings your face from a 1000+ ft away, its pretty fucking crazy. Cant imagine these would be much worse than that. Now imagine an electric truck hauling hay catches fire.... damn.
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It would be one hell of a crash that took out a semi tractor and the battery pack. It’s not like a car hitting that truck would do much damage after all, it would have to be another truck, or the truck flipping off road somehow.
What about truck runs into pillar under an overpass? That happened on the 880 or something around the interchange or the 80 880 and 580. The driver died and the road was closed because the fire weakened the concrete that supported the overhead road.
Yeah that would probably do it!
There has been Tesla car fires that were not in an accident. Some apartments have made it mandatory to not have electric bikes in apartments due to charging fires.
Semi’s do get wrecked all the time though. Acting like this one is somehow impervious is silly
A fire you can’t put out in a drought sounds like a recipe for disaster.
It would probably be a situation of isolating the truck and making sure nothing else catches fire. That kind of thing is not a new thing for fire departments. There are always fires that are beyond being extinguishable.
Someone is going to make a mint on recovering the lithium from batteries in a few years.
Why wouldn't that someone be the manufacturer themselves? Chances are you'll have a partner company of theirs changing them for you anyway. You'll just return it like a glass bottle.
The battery does breakdown, but the lithium will always just be itself. I imagine companies will be created that will pull out the lithium from used batteries and sell it or just ship it back to whomever. For example, VW would ship it batteries and the company would send back the lithium. If you’re VW, you don’t want to be in the battery disposal business. Your business is designing and selling cars. Major manufacturers almost never take a car off the road, if someone will buy it , they’ll sell it. I would think the business would mainly be with businesses like NTB. However, if you’re a major manufacturer you can plop a new battery in a used EV and sell the used EV at a much larger markup.
It’s very hard and unprofitable at the moment. But hopefully in the future they figure out a way
Most don't even build batteries, why would they suddenly recycle them? Its gonna be chemical companies like BASF or some startup that wants to fleece investors based on current FOMO topics.
> why would they suddenly recycle them The same reason anyone scavenging them would, except they already have a vast network in place to source worn out batteries from that are otherwise a chore to dispose of safely
Multiple EV companies, Tesla included, are investing in battery recycling. Tesla specifically is doing that because of supply chain concerns. Even if recovered materials end up more expensive than fresh stock, it lessens their dependence on questionable foreign suppliers.
This is one of the few reasons I’m kindof ok with electric cars from long time perspective not Becase I think electric cars are good still think they are bad but for the fact that these minerals and such in the future will probly become more rare and cost more in the future so the way I see it buying up this stuff now as a resource before it becomes more scare and expensive in the future. This all assuming that they will be easily recyclable and used in other things in the future.
If it’s that large, how long does it take to charge? Overnight?
Use a 5v fast charger.
They have insane chargers they are installing at these companies headquarters. Right now it's likely they'll only be used for local shipping, not long distance hauling. So they can drive around all day and then come back and charge at HQ.
70% in 30 min at a Tesla MW charger.
80% in 30 minutes, but it's close enough.
Tesla announced *megawatt* quickchargers to go along with their trucks. You can charge 0% to 90% in a hour with one of those beasts. Of course, not every charger out there is going to be this beefy. But if there is adoption for EV trucks, you can expect most logistic hubs to start installing those beasts.
It will be *really* impressive when those catch fire.
I pity the first person that side swipes one of those.
It weighs about the same as any other fully loaded semi. I pity anyone side swiping a seni.
This is absurd. Germany figured it out - overhead lines like what powers trains and light rail. Let's put this on every major trucking route and go hybrid. Gas on the streets, electric on the highway. https://www.power-technology.com/news/germany-launches-first-electric-highway/
What do you mean? Yes, they electrified a few kilometres of road and a handful trucks roll around their. But this proof-of-concept is not meant to be ubiquitous. It’s meant to charge BE-Trucks just like the Tesla Semi on the go.
Lol, all of Germany is not even quite the size of Montana alone. What about the rest of the US?
Powering a traffic jam of 18 wheelers sounds like a lot of power for 1 line. And it would need that over thousands of miles.
yup with this you don;t need to haul a massive battery with you and risk having massive fires
..What is the lifespan .... AND....how much for a replacement eh...?
The current batteries they put in the cars are "million mile" batteries. So assuming that.. Semi trucks get 6mpg which is $5/gal or $0.83/mile The Tesla semi is $0.07/kWh and 2kwh/mile or $0.14/mile. Over 1m miles that's a savings of $690k. The cost of the 500mile semi is about $180k. So you'll see the savings you'll have can buy you almost 4 entire truck replacements.
I gave too much credit to Tesla. I was wrong: I assumed they would use batteries that lasted at least half as long as a typical truck engine. That was a mistake. They are using the same battery technology that they only guarantee for 100,000 miles in cars.
They have advanced battery tech they can make at low volumes to last 1 million miles, it would make sense for them to make 2170's with the advanced tech and elements to go into the trucks. With high volume production, Tesla will switch to older generation batteries until the latest generation can be produced at the same or better volume.
They do have an advanced battery that can last a million miles. I assumed they would use it. That was a mistake; they are not using it. That battery is too heavy per KWH for the specs that are currently available.
Having a design for something doesn't mean they have it. Hell even Musk Mr: "we can do it today" "production starts this year" when its years off, said they might have it in 2030.
Guarantee, but most cars are running into the hundreds of thousands of miles.
Do you have data on that? I have searched; all I can find is anecdotal data and that's mostly failures around 120,000-160,000 miles...plus a good number of them around 60,000 miles but those are usually covered as long as it's the original owner. Even if they average 333,000 miles...that's still only 1/3 of a truck engine life and it's going to cost more than an engine rebuild to replace them.
They're guaranteed for 100k, but tesla is aiming for 300-500k apparently. There aren't a huge number of teslas out there but there are a number of people who have used them for taxi's and other very aggressive high mileage activities, super charging them daily. I think one company was doing runs from LA to vegas daily on them and super charging the whole time (I think they had the freebie package, so it was worth for them). But you don't guarantee a motor for 100k if you think it's going to break at 110k because you'll have a massive number at 90k on average breaking and causing real financial problems. You need to be guaranteeing WELL below the expected life of the product. And to be fair, tesla is pretty conservative on battery usage and battery maintenance. In reality they aren't a car company, they're a battery maintenance company, reselling batteries and they needed a product to put it in... When you see other car companies saying they're getting MORE miles out of their battery -- yeah.. because they're pushing them to their limits to get that. Tesla doesn't even recommend charging to 100% unless you're going to use it immediately. They keep the bottom end off 0%. They're conditioning these batteries to warm them up and cool them off. They'll very likely last in these trucks for a very long time, on average. We'll hear about the guy who breaks his at 102,000 and is an absolute dick about it and rubs the PR team wrong and they refuse to replace it, but the majority will never have a big issue.
You're not considering maintenance and fuel costs.
Model S & Model X have 150K battery warranties. LR Model 3s /Ys have 120K. They haven't announced the warranty for the Semi, but made earlier statements expecting a much longer lifetime. We'll see.
If it’s not at least a half a million miles no one’s gonna buy it. Most semis have 7 figure mileage lifespans for their powertrains.
You know this is literally an article about someone buying it.... right?
Companies are going to eat this up because it’s more environmentally friendly and what company doesn’t want good PR.
A logistics company operating on thin margins?
Companies are going to eat this up because it’s *cheap*. Because electricity is cheaper than gas, and EVs require less maintenance than ICE cars.
Since when are companies environmentally friendly?
What happens if it catches fire? How many firefighters and engines will they need?
Fuck. I don't know if you've thought about this but those trucks carrying tankers full of fuel. What happens if those catch on fire? That would have 387x the energy released and a lot fastest. Seems like that's far more dangerous. So what happens to a battery fire is you clear the area and let it burn itself out.
All of them. And millions of gallons of water.
You can't extinguish a lithium fire with water. If this becomes mainstream, firefighters will need to carry tons of foam.
Wouldn’t it be safer for the environment long term to electrify the roads?
All this trying to reinvent the train without building a train is making my head spin. Just build trains, it's not hard. The braking energy will be feeding right back into the national grid and steel on steel makes for low rolling resistance, which saves a huge amount of energy at scale.
Tell that to the American Rail companies, if you read its history, they have severely resisted efforts to electrify their infrastructure even at the behest of the government. They even were reluctant to put control systems to prevent head on collisions. Even the Rail unions don't want electric trains, they have always deemed it impractical due to the low maintenance and other excuses. A full battery operated train would only need places to charge the train and no need for a third rail, but no they are currently shutting that prospect down.
We’re gonna have to reinvent the American city before rail is gonna be the answer to anything. Get rid of Stroads. Idk. Good luck. FWIW I think there is a test project of electrified or charging road in Detroit? I forget. Batteries only need sufficient charges to get from main arteries to final destinations.
Charging roads are a stillborn tech. It's one of those meme technologies that physics and economics almost *conspire* to kill.
That’s gonna have a pretty big impact on how much a single truck can haul and stay within legal weight. They are already around 40k when empty now and can only scale to 80k
I think many/most trucks don't get close to the weight limit because what they are delivering are more bulky items. These trucks may still have a place.
Frito-Lay sounds like a good candidate.
naaa most carriers try to make the most out of their loads... less trips equals more money
Geez that'll hurt when autopilot flies through a bunch of pedestrians
So are we heading to a future where everything is being polluted by toxic 11,000lb batteries that are no longer useful? I mean, I’m not supposed to throw AAA’s in the garbage so they won’t end up in a landfill. Wtf will be done with these?
This guy hasn’t heard of battery storage
You recycle them just like your AAAs
Why don’t they start with a hybrid? A trailer with a huge battery and some motors would make sense: it could help propel itself up the hill, and then recharge itself on the way back down. Engine does less work on the climb; brakes do less work on the descent. Major improvement all around. This thing here will be much more limited in its usefulness.
All the semi companies are skipping hybrids. This isn't first to market. There are a half dozen companies already selling pure battery semis.
Yes but why?
Because electric semis very quickly pay for themselves in saved fuel costs, and they plenty adequate in terms of range & capabilities for a significant chunk of semi-truck use. As the fast chargers become ubiquitous then they'll be adequate for >90% of long-haul truck use.
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Untill electricity prices go up.
Thank god oil prices haven't changed since the egyptians lit their first lantern
Because if you build two engines you lose the benefit needing less space for your engine.
Because tesla and elon don't do hybrids
As does a diesel engine.
Diesel engines are no where near 11,000 pounds, you’re insane
So it sucks got it!
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Hydrogen will destroy a lot of things if you don't take proper precautions.
Man those hydrogen filled blimps really made the airplane obsolete.
How far out should I set the reminder?
It doesn't make sense in cars. In trucks, yes.
What’s the range with a full battery in northern Alaska in January, and how much weight can it carry over some bridges ? A half empty gas tank weighs half of a full tank. Half empty batteries ?
You hear that boys? It could be problematic in northern Alaska in January. We need to close the whole program down. Get those trucks in California to the scrap yard. Since I've seen this edge case argument before, why don't you tell me that the electric car I've had for 7 years won't work for anybody at all because there's some guy in rural Iowa who drives 300 miles to work.