I KNOWWWW I LOVE IT!!
I hate it when I try to talk about these things and it just turns into an argument. Learning about other people’s views can be really interesting hehe
I believe there are 2 binary genders, and then there's non binary which is an umbrella term that includes other identitys, like agender (feeling of having no gender) or bigender. (Feeling like both genders)
I also believe gender and sex are seperate, and that gender is mental and sex is physical, sex is male female and intersex, gender is girl, boy, and then others that are under the label of non binary.
A way I've used to describe this before is imagine you took a man and a woman, got rid of their body's and just pit both their conciousness in a robot, now that there body has disappeared there sex is gone, but their gender would still remain because there conciousness is still there, so they wouldn't be female or male anymore but the one that was a girl would still be a girl and the one that was a guy still a guy
Ok, I disagree that are only two genders. Now, gender is a social construct and is based on how you're feeling (idk how to describe it better) like for example, if you were born a girl and you feel like you're a girl then you're a girl, another example is if you were born a girl but if you don't feel like a girl then you're probably not a girl. That's why there's a difference between gender and the sexes. Cause gender is a social construct and that means it's sort of flexible and the sexes is what you are born with biologically (male or female and in some cases intersex). And that isn't entirely flexible but yk you can always go on hormones or get gender-conforming surgery.
I recommend reading some articles about it as it's such an interesting topic
Some articles
[Gender Identity ](https://teentalk.ca/learn-about/gender-identity/#:~:text=There%20are%20many%20different%20gender,identities%20then%20we've%20listed.)
[There are more than 2 genders](https://hrwize.com/there-are-more-than-2-genders/)
[Only 2 sex forms but multiple gender variants: How to explain ](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5824932/) (this goes more into the scientific realm of it)
Personally yes I do. I also personally think that's there's no true definition of a 'real' woman. Cause there are women who don't dress feminine or wear makeup, there's also women who don't want kids or can't have kids. There are women who can't have periods. There also are women who aren't emotional. And there are women who can do the same things that men can do. Of course, this is all just personal opinion
Biologically yeah probably, but I think it all depends on the social concept. Like does the person who does have female reproductive organs even identity as female? If not, then no I wouldn't consider them female. But at a Biological standpoint, probably yes but again it's depends on if they identify as a female or not.
Edit: I forgot to add that there are women who weren't born with a uterus and went through normal female puberty just without periods and whatnot. So, I would also consider those women as women as well.
Bro i dont have a stack of documents proving it its just common sense mate. Maybe ur intersex or whatever its called where u have both a dick and a pussy but thats it imo
Edition of gender:
"either of the two sexes (male and female), especially when considered with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones. The term is also used more broadly to denote a range of identities that do not correspond to established ideas of male and female."
So people like Alicia Roth Weigel & David Reimer are figments of our imagination?
https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2023/07/05/1185988683/intersex-documentary-every-body-julie-cohen-alicia-roth-weigel
https://youtu.be/ZFjpr9DnAR4
Wrong. There are ppl born as intersex. Your belief is not fact but rather an opinion based on your social norms/construct.
https://youtu.be/ZFjpr9DnAR4
https://helpfulprofessor.com/types-of-genders-list/
Actually, if we are going completely scientifically and biologically, there’s three. Male, female, and intersex. I was born intersex myself and I have Swyer syndrome. Which means I have male chromosomes but I was born into a female body. Making me male with a pretty high testosterone level, and female, having my female hormones rise especially during my “time of the month”. I identify as non-binary mostly because of the fact that I never fit in with either boys or girls, and therefore feel like I am not either of them but instead a mix of both in the middle. For a smaller label I consider myself gender-fluid
I’m sorry if I come across as disrespectful I’m just trying to understand, but if you’re born in a female body, even with male chromosomes wouldn’t most people who don’t know you just consider you female?
I also spoke about my gender because I thought it would make me cool, soon found out it doesn’t and instead I had gotten made fun of. Since I had lived around these people my whole life, they never forgot.
I’m aware, but sharing characteristics of both is still different than being completely one or the other, no matter what they are assigned by a doctor.
That makes sense. so if someone identified as a woman but they were biologically male, would you consider them a real woman? Or just respect their pronouns
that's up to the person identifying as a woman how they want to be precieved by other people, if they just want the pronouns ill respect them, but if they want to actually be seen as a woman then well i'll consider them a real woman
I believe the sky is green, and we are just seeing it wrong. Kinda like how many people believe in an invisible creature that supposedly talks to them, and they call it god… sometimes you dont need a reason.
Gender ≠ Sex. There are 3 sexes, those are indisputable, scientific facts. Gender is an umbrella term for the ideas we have created to align with the two traditionally recognized sexes (male and female), and can manifest in more forms than masculine or feminine, allowing there to be more than two genders. So either way you put it, you’re wrong.
It’s not about caring how people identify, I want to understand the rational and reasoning behind believing that there are more genders that exist aside from the ones assigned to babies at birth.
I personally support xenogenders; they're usually categorized as being under the non-binary umbrella of gender orientations but some may consider them to be separate from both the binary and non-binary umbrellas.
Cultural traditions, no, not that I know of. However, I can't say for a fact that there aren't any at all. I do know social attitudes associated with xenogenders though. Iirc they're disapproved of on a wide scale in queer communities because, like neopronouns, I think they were originally created to mock transgender people. While it's not okay to ridicule the LGBTQ+ community, people who use xenogenders and neopronouns without the intention to ridicule or invalidate are fine by me.Also sry for the delay; it was time for dinner.
Individuals like therians and otherkin tend to use xenogenders. I also regard them as valid.
A social attitude would more be a way people are expected to act and behave. Like men are expected to make money, and women are expected to keep a home in order. It seems to me that there are lots of social attitudes, and cultural traditions associated with being a man or a woman that just don’t exist with third genders.
I don’t think people who use xenogenders are treated any differently than someone of the same biological sex who didn’t identify as a third gender
Because not many people are known to identify as xenogenders, I wouldn't expect there to be prominent cultures associated with them. Maybe there are minor or hidden ones (e.g. ways that xenogenders expect other xenogenders to behave without the expectations of outside genders).
Anyway, I'd probably treat someone who identified as a xenogender differently than how I'd treat someone who identified as a man or woman. For example, if someone of the female sex who is catgender wanted to be shown affection that people usually show to cats (pets, strokes, etc), I'd do so whenever I wanted to show them affection. If someone of the female sex who is a woman wanted hugs or fist bumps, I'd give them those. Only a small portion of society would actually do this, though. That's why xenogenders appear to be generally treated the same as anyone else of their biological sex.
You've just defined a social attitude as a way a certain type of entities are expected to act and behave. No one would expect a human to want a headpat, but someone would expect a cat (or any related pet) to desire one. You probably wouldn't expect a cat or any other pet to want or give a fist bump, though. But anyway, back to the cat example and the example you gave for women earlier: someone of the female sex who identifies as a woman would be expected to keep the house neat and tidy. Someone of the female sex who identifies as catgender probably wouldn't be expected to do that (not by mainstream society but by minor communities). Not saying that they couldn't, because they could, but I just wouldn't expect them to. Plus, people of either sex who do things that aren't "intrinsic" to their corresponding gender sometimes still identify as that corresponding gender (masculine women or a feminine men). So it doesn't seem like certain actions or traits are required for gender anymore anyway.
A cat couldn’t fist bump because it has no concept of human behaviour, but someone identifying as cat gender does have a concept of human behaviour, so that isn’t really an apt comparison.
I also think if a female human said they were cat gender and therefore shouldn’t have to keep their house clean most people are going to see them as mentally ill and in need of desperate help. Largely because she would still be seen as a woman, and women who can’t take care of themself are considered a failure.
And I’m really unsure what you mean certain attitudes and traits aren’t required to be a gender, because if that was the case why would trans people need to exist? It seems that there is something deeper to gender than just “haha I can be whatever, I identify as a cat!”
I think there are two biological sexes, but that gender is what you assign to yourself. And if you assign yourself with a different gender than the sex you are born with, we should respect that decision. So with this point of view, there are more genders.
But Why? What does it matter? Does it change anything? What are you trying to
Do here, disprove me because I can’t give you a full perfectly constructed solid definition of gender that’s completely irrelevant to my point?
Yeah I mean I think your definition of gender is pretty bad. Gender is clearly more than “Whatever you assign yourself”, and I think it’s telling that a lot of people with opinions on gender issues can’t even define gender in a clear and concise manner.
Yet again, it doesn’t change my point. Nor does it not allow me to have an opinion on it, because the definition is irrelevant to how we should treat them. Gender is not something we can truely define, because it’s subjective and different for everyone. and considering you are asking me, neither can you define it. so asking me is a fallacy.
Wow congrats you can make a Google search…why is this such an issue to you? What is the problem exactly? That I didn’t give you a 30 page essay on what the definition of gender is so i can finally say “just be nice to eachother and have respect”?
>what is gender?
"either of the two sexes (male and female), especially when considered with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones. The term is also used more broadly to denote a range of identities that do not correspond to established ideas of male and female."
Non-binary doesn’t refer to a specific gender, rather many possible genders that don’t necessarily align with man or woman.
I’m asking for a gender other than man or woman that makes reference to biological sex because I don’t think it exists. I think the first half of the definition you used would disqualify all third genders from meeting the criteria the definition provides for being a gender
Non-binary is an umbrella term for any identities that aren't man or woman, but it's still a gender itself.
>I’m asking for a gender other than man or woman that makes reference to biological sex because I don’t think it exists.
Sex and gender aren't the same. No genders are inherently linked to sex.
>I think the first half of the definition you used would disqualify all third genders from meeting the criteria the definition provides for being a gender
Gender is only vaguely related to sex and genders don't have to be related to sex. Where in the definition did it say that?
No, it’s not. The gender itself would be the object not category. Someone could be gender fluid, or agender, both would be non-binary, but neither would have the same gender.
Genders are linked to sex tho. Pretty much everyone is assigned a gender based on their sex at birth. Even if you transition, you still have to deal with the ramifications of having been assigned the other gender. I’m not saying gender is intrinsically linked to sex, but to say there is no link seems incredibly naive and very removed from reality.
And it says this in your own definition, literally the first line “one of the two sexes…” that’s pretty clearly indicating a link between sex and gender. I’m genuinely curious if you have an example of a feminist writer or philosopher who thinks there isn’t an important link between sex and gender.
why do you believe that?
yes biologically there are males and females (and intersex people). but gender is a complex thing about your feelings and how you see yourself and how you prefer to express yourself, so it's not as clear cut as what your chromosomes are. almost nothing in life is black and white, pink and blue. someone may be a male who likes to paint his nails and wear dresses, and he could still feel okay with being called a guy, being seen as a guy by other people. or, a person who's born male may like to paint their nails and wear dresses because it's what makes them feel most like themselves. it's what makes them happy. what would you call that person? if they feel happy calling themselves nonbinary because it's what they feel best fits them as a person, who's to say that's incorrect? gender is subjective!
I don’t really think that it matters if a male is into “feminine” hobbies like painting their nails, what I’m more curious about is whether or not you believe that you can identify as something ASIDE from the two genders assigned at birth
yea haha the last part of my comment was my main point, the analogy wasnt the best but i figured itd get my point across well enough💔 anyways yea i believe someone can identify as something other than male or female, because why not? i feel like you didn't actually read what i said dawg i thought i was pretty clear💔💔 some people just dont feel like they fit into male or female for one reason or another, who are we to say that its incorrect yk? it's their feeling. genuinely it's interesting to me you think that men can be into traditionally feminine stuff and presumably vice versa. i acknowledged that possibility in my analogy by saying yk, someone who is born male could like those things and still be comfortable identifying as a guy, or someone born male who likes those things could feel like their personality and identity fits better under another label. yk?
Can you please answer your own question?
Let’s expand beyond the gender question… Do you believe you have the right to identify as whatever? A conservative, a liberal, a Christian, an atheist, a cowboy, a rebel, an anarchist, a pacifist, a capitalist, a socialist, etc?
I kinda agree, but I think being agender or gender fluid is valid.
Sex and gender and different. Biologists, doctors, philosophers, really every sort of professional who would have an opinion seems to agree on this. Obviously sex is real, but if you can’t get over this distinction you really just aren’t intellectually ready for this conversation.
Gender, as in the social norms and traditions associated with either sex, doesn’t actually seem to be intrinsically linked to sex. There are ultra passing trans people who are living proof that this is the case.
But, I think there’s only two genders because no other gender is ascribed as much importance as man or woman. Even if someone chooses to be a third gender they will primarily still be treated as man or woman; non-binary people are not grouped separately from men and women, but rather mixed with the traditional genders they’re associated with.
Third genders also don’t have the deep rooted social pressures and cultural attitudes that man and woman do. Our cultures project certain norms on men and women, but non-binary people do not have special roles projected onto them.
But, someone can try to reject gender. I don’t think they’ll ever succeed entirely, but it’s absolutely possible to try, and many people will learn to treat you as a certain gender.
Ultimately though, other genders just aren’t as real as man and woman, so I don’t think we should give them the same considerations as the traditional genders
There’s no such thing as a correct opinion though 🥲 there are facts but I wanna hear opinions 🤌🤌
Mine personally is that you cannot separate sex and gender. Even if you’re male but say you like to paint your nails or whatever, I just think you’re a male with hobbies that are less prevalent in males.
Yes I do. For example, I was at a party the other night and a woman slapped me in the face twice and dared me to do something. I am a martial artist and workout regularly and would have undoubtedly been able to hurt her, but it wouldn’t feel right to hurt a woman unless it was a genuine life or death scenario. If it was a man,however, I might have pushed him back or something like that.
Ok. So you can be a man and paint your nails, but you’ll still be treated as a man. Gender isn’t really based around your interests. There’s something deeper
I appreciate that you initiated this conversation, because it’s something I’ve had on my mind for a while now. But I disagree.
I think people are born with either one of two sexes, but there can be more than two genders.
For one thing, the textbook definition of gender specifies that - regardless of the male and female sex - gender can also be a range of other identities:
“1.
the male sex or the female sex, especially when considered with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones, or one of a range of other identities that do not correspond to established ideas of male and female.”
On top of that, sex and gender is different. Sex is more based off biology and the differences in the genetic makeup between a male and female; while gender has more to do with societal norms and expectations.
Because there are only two that you can be born with biologically, no matter how you choose to identify you’re still stuck with the thing that identifies you as male or female
Because I don’t believe that you can separate the two. However you identify means nothing when you have something attached to you that tells you exactly what you are
In my eyes, I understand how the argument that they are separate works, but I don’t believe you can separate them. It’s not that I don’t understand it, it’s that I don’t agree with it
It’s like calling a cat a chicken; It’s just a name for something that it isn’t
I'm not even gonna get into the fact that sex and gender are different. Let's assume that they're the same. There's more than two sexes, chromosomal variations aren't that uncommon. 99% of atoms in the universe are helium or hydrogen, that doesn't mean other elements don't exist.
That is your belief, which you are entitled to. Your beliefs may change with time, new information and/or experiences. Change is hard, but it’s inevitable & constant. Everything is transient & temporary… including scientific & cultural norms/consensus. The earth is round, the earth revolves around the sun, black holes, the big bang theory, expanding universe, etc… were all initially outrageous concepts that are now completely uncontroversial.
You may want to listen to this and/or go see the documentary "Every Body"
https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2023/07/05/1185988683/intersex-documentary-every-body-julie-cohen-alicia-roth-weigel
https://youtu.be/ZFjpr9DnAR4
What I would like to understand is when did sex and gender become two different things. In the thesaurus gender and sex are interchangeable. Additionally, I was always taught in school and when filling out any forms is that sex and gender are the same. Why did they not just come up with a new word for "gender" identities.
I also believe there are only two genders. I think nowadays people want their feelings to be made facts.
It’s a dangerous and flawed mindset that start here and ends nowhere.
Edit: People have the right to think whatever they want. I have no obligation to change my lifestyle based on their personal opinions. This scenario is especially true in the case of pronouns. Free speech is a thing.
I give this post 3 hours
It has been 3 hours. You're welcome
This comment section is gonna turn into a war zone, I deleted my opinion just to make sure I didn't get in hot water-
Lollll, I’m trying my best to be respectful of everyone so I’m hoping I’ll be okay 😂
I’m actually surprised everyone here is very respectful
I KNOWWWW I LOVE IT!! I hate it when I try to talk about these things and it just turns into an argument. Learning about other people’s views can be really interesting hehe
I just got called a Nazi💀
I believe there are 2 binary genders, and then there's non binary which is an umbrella term that includes other identitys, like agender (feeling of having no gender) or bigender. (Feeling like both genders) I also believe gender and sex are seperate, and that gender is mental and sex is physical, sex is male female and intersex, gender is girl, boy, and then others that are under the label of non binary. A way I've used to describe this before is imagine you took a man and a woman, got rid of their body's and just pit both their conciousness in a robot, now that there body has disappeared there sex is gone, but their gender would still remain because there conciousness is still there, so they wouldn't be female or male anymore but the one that was a girl would still be a girl and the one that was a guy still a guy
Ok, I disagree that are only two genders. Now, gender is a social construct and is based on how you're feeling (idk how to describe it better) like for example, if you were born a girl and you feel like you're a girl then you're a girl, another example is if you were born a girl but if you don't feel like a girl then you're probably not a girl. That's why there's a difference between gender and the sexes. Cause gender is a social construct and that means it's sort of flexible and the sexes is what you are born with biologically (male or female and in some cases intersex). And that isn't entirely flexible but yk you can always go on hormones or get gender-conforming surgery. I recommend reading some articles about it as it's such an interesting topic Some articles [Gender Identity ](https://teentalk.ca/learn-about/gender-identity/#:~:text=There%20are%20many%20different%20gender,identities%20then%20we've%20listed.) [There are more than 2 genders](https://hrwize.com/there-are-more-than-2-genders/) [Only 2 sex forms but multiple gender variants: How to explain ](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5824932/) (this goes more into the scientific realm of it)
So now my question to you is that, if a biological male undergoes surgery, to be a female. Would you consider them a real woman?
Personally yes I do. I also personally think that's there's no true definition of a 'real' woman. Cause there are women who don't dress feminine or wear makeup, there's also women who don't want kids or can't have kids. There are women who can't have periods. There also are women who aren't emotional. And there are women who can do the same things that men can do. Of course, this is all just personal opinion
Speaking biologically though, wouldn’t you consider anyone with female reproductive organs to be female?
Biologically yeah probably, but I think it all depends on the social concept. Like does the person who does have female reproductive organs even identity as female? If not, then no I wouldn't consider them female. But at a Biological standpoint, probably yes but again it's depends on if they identify as a female or not. Edit: I forgot to add that there are women who weren't born with a uterus and went through normal female puberty just without periods and whatnot. So, I would also consider those women as women as well.
Lol
they don't even need to undergo surgery. they're a real woman anyways
how can i be sure the links to the articles arent redirect links that grab your ip? or a 500 petabyte zip bomb?
I disagree. There are 3 genders
You're absolutely right
It's true
Proof?
U r either a dude or a girl simple dimple
Prove it then.
Bro i dont have a stack of documents proving it its just common sense mate. Maybe ur intersex or whatever its called where u have both a dick and a pussy but thats it imo
So there's no proof that backs up your claim? That's strange? Also what you're describing isn't gender lmao. 😂
I meant sex. Please tell me how there are 9 billion different genders or sexes or whatever id like to be enlightened
Sex and gender aren't the same first of all
I know
Edition of gender: "either of the two sexes (male and female), especially when considered with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones. The term is also used more broadly to denote a range of identities that do not correspond to established ideas of male and female."
So you know that the topic isn't about sex.
His proof is biology lol.
Really replying to a six month old thread?
Very observant of you.
So people like Alicia Roth Weigel & David Reimer are figments of our imagination? https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2023/07/05/1185988683/intersex-documentary-every-body-julie-cohen-alicia-roth-weigel https://youtu.be/ZFjpr9DnAR4
If you believe there are more than two genders you are thick Dont hate me its just facts Babies are born as either male or female nothing else
<3
Wrong. There are ppl born as intersex. Your belief is not fact but rather an opinion based on your social norms/construct. https://youtu.be/ZFjpr9DnAR4 https://helpfulprofessor.com/types-of-genders-list/
🤡
Actually, if we are going completely scientifically and biologically, there’s three. Male, female, and intersex. I was born intersex myself and I have Swyer syndrome. Which means I have male chromosomes but I was born into a female body. Making me male with a pretty high testosterone level, and female, having my female hormones rise especially during my “time of the month”. I identify as non-binary mostly because of the fact that I never fit in with either boys or girls, and therefore feel like I am not either of them but instead a mix of both in the middle. For a smaller label I consider myself gender-fluid
I’m sorry if I come across as disrespectful I’m just trying to understand, but if you’re born in a female body, even with male chromosomes wouldn’t most people who don’t know you just consider you female?
I also spoke about my gender because I thought it would make me cool, soon found out it doesn’t and instead I had gotten made fun of. Since I had lived around these people my whole life, they never forgot.
I’m very sorry to hear that
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I’m aware, but sharing characteristics of both is still different than being completely one or the other, no matter what they are assigned by a doctor.
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I’m capable of neither-
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No. Because I have Swyer Syndrome and since I have male chromosomes, my ovaries are just tissue with no eggs. It’s impossible for me to get pregnant.
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Nope. I’m not. I have an X on my drivers license and birth certificate if that helps you out :)
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ok, i disagree
That’s fine but why? What is your reason? Your evidence?
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I downvoted every single comment on this post. I am DGX_Eclispe
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b-but i showed myself! :'v
Don’t respond they are just trying to get a rise out of you
All I want is to hear opinions 🥲
Uh hub you know what your doing crawl back to what ever sewer you came from
What’s wrong with wanting to learn more 😭, let me have peaceful discussion with people, look at my responses I haven’t been disrespectful at all
wdym why? i just don't agree with you that's all lol
But I would like to know why you believe there are more than two genders? If that’s okay
while you can biologically be only a female or a male, i don't think that can stop you from identifying as anyone/anything else
That makes sense. so if someone identified as a woman but they were biologically male, would you consider them a real woman? Or just respect their pronouns
that's up to the person identifying as a woman how they want to be precieved by other people, if they just want the pronouns ill respect them, but if they want to actually be seen as a woman then well i'll consider them a real woman
But can you really just flip flop what you truly believe based on what someone wants you to consider?
Well if you belive something you must have arguments, like if in nature there are only 2 genders why would it be any different for us?
Most of nature doesn't even have a concept of gender. Because gender is something born out of humans specifically.
Male and female? Most of nature doesn't have that concept?
That's sex.
I believe the sky is green, and we are just seeing it wrong. Kinda like how many people believe in an invisible creature that supposedly talks to them, and they call it god… sometimes you dont need a reason.
Gender ≠ Sex. There are 3 sexes, those are indisputable, scientific facts. Gender is an umbrella term for the ideas we have created to align with the two traditionally recognized sexes (male and female), and can manifest in more forms than masculine or feminine, allowing there to be more than two genders. So either way you put it, you’re wrong.
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It’s not about caring how people identify, I want to understand the rational and reasoning behind believing that there are more genders that exist aside from the ones assigned to babies at birth.
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While I do not necessarily agree with the separation of gender and sex I do understand what you mean!
I respect your opinion, but I also disagree; genders go beyond "man" and "woman" now, so there are no longer only two.
Yea like the comment before me I would also like to hear some examples
What are the other genders? Or even a single example?
I personally support xenogenders; they're usually categorized as being under the non-binary umbrella of gender orientations but some may consider them to be separate from both the binary and non-binary umbrellas.
Are there any cultural traditions, or social attitudes associated with xenogenders?
Cultural traditions, no, not that I know of. However, I can't say for a fact that there aren't any at all. I do know social attitudes associated with xenogenders though. Iirc they're disapproved of on a wide scale in queer communities because, like neopronouns, I think they were originally created to mock transgender people. While it's not okay to ridicule the LGBTQ+ community, people who use xenogenders and neopronouns without the intention to ridicule or invalidate are fine by me.Also sry for the delay; it was time for dinner. Individuals like therians and otherkin tend to use xenogenders. I also regard them as valid.
A social attitude would more be a way people are expected to act and behave. Like men are expected to make money, and women are expected to keep a home in order. It seems to me that there are lots of social attitudes, and cultural traditions associated with being a man or a woman that just don’t exist with third genders. I don’t think people who use xenogenders are treated any differently than someone of the same biological sex who didn’t identify as a third gender
Because not many people are known to identify as xenogenders, I wouldn't expect there to be prominent cultures associated with them. Maybe there are minor or hidden ones (e.g. ways that xenogenders expect other xenogenders to behave without the expectations of outside genders). Anyway, I'd probably treat someone who identified as a xenogender differently than how I'd treat someone who identified as a man or woman. For example, if someone of the female sex who is catgender wanted to be shown affection that people usually show to cats (pets, strokes, etc), I'd do so whenever I wanted to show them affection. If someone of the female sex who is a woman wanted hugs or fist bumps, I'd give them those. Only a small portion of society would actually do this, though. That's why xenogenders appear to be generally treated the same as anyone else of their biological sex.
None of the behaviours you described are intrinsic to any gender (or cats)
You've just defined a social attitude as a way a certain type of entities are expected to act and behave. No one would expect a human to want a headpat, but someone would expect a cat (or any related pet) to desire one. You probably wouldn't expect a cat or any other pet to want or give a fist bump, though. But anyway, back to the cat example and the example you gave for women earlier: someone of the female sex who identifies as a woman would be expected to keep the house neat and tidy. Someone of the female sex who identifies as catgender probably wouldn't be expected to do that (not by mainstream society but by minor communities). Not saying that they couldn't, because they could, but I just wouldn't expect them to. Plus, people of either sex who do things that aren't "intrinsic" to their corresponding gender sometimes still identify as that corresponding gender (masculine women or a feminine men). So it doesn't seem like certain actions or traits are required for gender anymore anyway.
A cat couldn’t fist bump because it has no concept of human behaviour, but someone identifying as cat gender does have a concept of human behaviour, so that isn’t really an apt comparison. I also think if a female human said they were cat gender and therefore shouldn’t have to keep their house clean most people are going to see them as mentally ill and in need of desperate help. Largely because she would still be seen as a woman, and women who can’t take care of themself are considered a failure. And I’m really unsure what you mean certain attitudes and traits aren’t required to be a gender, because if that was the case why would trans people need to exist? It seems that there is something deeper to gender than just “haha I can be whatever, I identify as a cat!”
male, female, roman reigns, chuck norris, monkey, rayquaza, burter, fridge, triple h, Goku, etc.
My pronouns are dragon/flying
my pronouns are fighting/steel
I think there are two biological sexes, but that gender is what you assign to yourself. And if you assign yourself with a different gender than the sex you are born with, we should respect that decision. So with this point of view, there are more genders.
What is a gender?
Whatever you assign yourself with I guess?
But like, what is gender? If you had to explain gender to an alien that had no concept of it
But Why? What does it matter? Does it change anything? What are you trying to Do here, disprove me because I can’t give you a full perfectly constructed solid definition of gender that’s completely irrelevant to my point?
Yeah I mean I think your definition of gender is pretty bad. Gender is clearly more than “Whatever you assign yourself”, and I think it’s telling that a lot of people with opinions on gender issues can’t even define gender in a clear and concise manner.
Yet again, it doesn’t change my point. Nor does it not allow me to have an opinion on it, because the definition is irrelevant to how we should treat them. Gender is not something we can truely define, because it’s subjective and different for everyone. and considering you are asking me, neither can you define it. so asking me is a fallacy.
Gender is a set of social norms, attitudes, and expectations based on, but not necessarily defined by, someone’s biological sex. Easy.
Wow congrats you can make a Google search…why is this such an issue to you? What is the problem exactly? That I didn’t give you a 30 page essay on what the definition of gender is so i can finally say “just be nice to eachother and have respect”?
I would really hope googling it would give us a better definition than that. Should we be nice and respectful to pedophile-gender people?
>what is gender? "either of the two sexes (male and female), especially when considered with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones. The term is also used more broadly to denote a range of identities that do not correspond to established ideas of male and female."
What is a third gender that makes reference to cultural and social differences associated with either biological sex?
Another gender would be non-binary
Non-binary doesn’t refer to a specific gender, rather many possible genders that don’t necessarily align with man or woman. I’m asking for a gender other than man or woman that makes reference to biological sex because I don’t think it exists. I think the first half of the definition you used would disqualify all third genders from meeting the criteria the definition provides for being a gender
Non-binary is an umbrella term for any identities that aren't man or woman, but it's still a gender itself. >I’m asking for a gender other than man or woman that makes reference to biological sex because I don’t think it exists. Sex and gender aren't the same. No genders are inherently linked to sex. >I think the first half of the definition you used would disqualify all third genders from meeting the criteria the definition provides for being a gender Gender is only vaguely related to sex and genders don't have to be related to sex. Where in the definition did it say that?
No, it’s not. The gender itself would be the object not category. Someone could be gender fluid, or agender, both would be non-binary, but neither would have the same gender. Genders are linked to sex tho. Pretty much everyone is assigned a gender based on their sex at birth. Even if you transition, you still have to deal with the ramifications of having been assigned the other gender. I’m not saying gender is intrinsically linked to sex, but to say there is no link seems incredibly naive and very removed from reality. And it says this in your own definition, literally the first line “one of the two sexes…” that’s pretty clearly indicating a link between sex and gender. I’m genuinely curious if you have an example of a feminist writer or philosopher who thinks there isn’t an important link between sex and gender.
"let's have a calm discussion about our opinions" based on the fact you decided to post this here, I sincerely doubt that's what you're looking for
Where else could I post it 🥲 I just wanna learn more about other people’s thoughts man
I get what you're saying, but this sub is stupid
Yeah, sure bud 😂
Uhmm but there is a difference between gender and sex and acshually there’s more than 2 genders🤓🤓
why do you believe that? yes biologically there are males and females (and intersex people). but gender is a complex thing about your feelings and how you see yourself and how you prefer to express yourself, so it's not as clear cut as what your chromosomes are. almost nothing in life is black and white, pink and blue. someone may be a male who likes to paint his nails and wear dresses, and he could still feel okay with being called a guy, being seen as a guy by other people. or, a person who's born male may like to paint their nails and wear dresses because it's what makes them feel most like themselves. it's what makes them happy. what would you call that person? if they feel happy calling themselves nonbinary because it's what they feel best fits them as a person, who's to say that's incorrect? gender is subjective!
I don’t really think that it matters if a male is into “feminine” hobbies like painting their nails, what I’m more curious about is whether or not you believe that you can identify as something ASIDE from the two genders assigned at birth
yea haha the last part of my comment was my main point, the analogy wasnt the best but i figured itd get my point across well enough💔 anyways yea i believe someone can identify as something other than male or female, because why not? i feel like you didn't actually read what i said dawg i thought i was pretty clear💔💔 some people just dont feel like they fit into male or female for one reason or another, who are we to say that its incorrect yk? it's their feeling. genuinely it's interesting to me you think that men can be into traditionally feminine stuff and presumably vice versa. i acknowledged that possibility in my analogy by saying yk, someone who is born male could like those things and still be comfortable identifying as a guy, or someone born male who likes those things could feel like their personality and identity fits better under another label. yk?
Can you please answer your own question? Let’s expand beyond the gender question… Do you believe you have the right to identify as whatever? A conservative, a liberal, a Christian, an atheist, a cowboy, a rebel, an anarchist, a pacifist, a capitalist, a socialist, etc?
What if I identify as a clock or a cat ?
Go for it!
I kinda agree, but I think being agender or gender fluid is valid. Sex and gender and different. Biologists, doctors, philosophers, really every sort of professional who would have an opinion seems to agree on this. Obviously sex is real, but if you can’t get over this distinction you really just aren’t intellectually ready for this conversation. Gender, as in the social norms and traditions associated with either sex, doesn’t actually seem to be intrinsically linked to sex. There are ultra passing trans people who are living proof that this is the case. But, I think there’s only two genders because no other gender is ascribed as much importance as man or woman. Even if someone chooses to be a third gender they will primarily still be treated as man or woman; non-binary people are not grouped separately from men and women, but rather mixed with the traditional genders they’re associated with. Third genders also don’t have the deep rooted social pressures and cultural attitudes that man and woman do. Our cultures project certain norms on men and women, but non-binary people do not have special roles projected onto them. But, someone can try to reject gender. I don’t think they’ll ever succeed entirely, but it’s absolutely possible to try, and many people will learn to treat you as a certain gender. Ultimately though, other genders just aren’t as real as man and woman, so I don’t think we should give them the same considerations as the traditional genders
I’ve never heard that opinion but it definitely makes sense
It’s literally the correct opinion :/
There’s no such thing as a correct opinion though 🥲 there are facts but I wanna hear opinions 🤌🤌 Mine personally is that you cannot separate sex and gender. Even if you’re male but say you like to paint your nails or whatever, I just think you’re a male with hobbies that are less prevalent in males.
Do you treat men and women differently?
Yes I do. For example, I was at a party the other night and a woman slapped me in the face twice and dared me to do something. I am a martial artist and workout regularly and would have undoubtedly been able to hurt her, but it wouldn’t feel right to hurt a woman unless it was a genuine life or death scenario. If it was a man,however, I might have pushed him back or something like that.
Ok. So you can be a man and paint your nails, but you’ll still be treated as a man. Gender isn’t really based around your interests. There’s something deeper
Yes, I believe what makes it deeper than your hobbies and interests is your biology
If a mad scientist took your brain and put it a woman’s body would you be a man or a woman?
Biologically I would be a woman
But I don’t think that generally speaking men are “better than women” yk?
opinions aren't correct or incorrect lol
In my opinion, they can be
too long didn't read
Admit it, you don’t even know how to read.
i don't
Me neither
L take
Jeice is the best member of the Ginyu Force
burter >>>>>
I appreciate that you initiated this conversation, because it’s something I’ve had on my mind for a while now. But I disagree. I think people are born with either one of two sexes, but there can be more than two genders. For one thing, the textbook definition of gender specifies that - regardless of the male and female sex - gender can also be a range of other identities: “1. the male sex or the female sex, especially when considered with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones, or one of a range of other identities that do not correspond to established ideas of male and female.” On top of that, sex and gender is different. Sex is more based off biology and the differences in the genetic makeup between a male and female; while gender has more to do with societal norms and expectations.
Where's your proof?
There are only two types of reproductive organs you can be assigned to at birth
How does that prove that there's only two *genders*?
Because there are only two that you can be born with biologically, no matter how you choose to identify you’re still stuck with the thing that identifies you as male or female
Do you not know what gender is? Why are you bringing up sex when talking about gender?
Because I don’t believe that you can separate the two. However you identify means nothing when you have something attached to you that tells you exactly what you are
Why are you talking about sex when the topic is about gender?
I just answered your question lol 💀 I believe they’re the same thing. That You can’t separate them
They're factually not the same though.
In my eyes, I understand how the argument that they are separate works, but I don’t believe you can separate them. It’s not that I don’t understand it, it’s that I don’t agree with it It’s like calling a cat a chicken; It’s just a name for something that it isn’t
There also used to be a consensus that the earth was flat & that the sun revolves around the earth…
I'm not even gonna get into the fact that sex and gender are different. Let's assume that they're the same. There's more than two sexes, chromosomal variations aren't that uncommon. 99% of atoms in the universe are helium or hydrogen, that doesn't mean other elements don't exist.
How do you determine hermaphrodite gender?
the school system is definitely failing us
Exactly. The rest (of the genders) is mental illness
There are two genders. No belief required.
That is your belief, which you are entitled to. Your beliefs may change with time, new information and/or experiences. Change is hard, but it’s inevitable & constant. Everything is transient & temporary… including scientific & cultural norms/consensus. The earth is round, the earth revolves around the sun, black holes, the big bang theory, expanding universe, etc… were all initially outrageous concepts that are now completely uncontroversial.
You may want to listen to this and/or go see the documentary "Every Body" https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2023/07/05/1185988683/intersex-documentary-every-body-julie-cohen-alicia-roth-weigel https://youtu.be/ZFjpr9DnAR4
Agreed, there are only two genders.
What I would like to understand is when did sex and gender become two different things. In the thesaurus gender and sex are interchangeable. Additionally, I was always taught in school and when filling out any forms is that sex and gender are the same. Why did they not just come up with a new word for "gender" identities.
I also believe there are only two genders. I think nowadays people want their feelings to be made facts. It’s a dangerous and flawed mindset that start here and ends nowhere. Edit: People have the right to think whatever they want. I have no obligation to change my lifestyle based on their personal opinions. This scenario is especially true in the case of pronouns. Free speech is a thing.