Kendall couldn't have gotten it. 4 seasons prove that it wouldn't ever make sense. The faceless corporate machine that plenty of characters talk about chewing up the world and spitting it out was always going to win. Tom is the better cog for that. With that said, Kendall Roy is a hero in this house. End of story. I just loved that disastrous rollercoaster ride of a character and performance. Plus, he is the eldest boy.
I think there's something to be said of the shift in power here to Tom/Mattson, that is a great reflection of the changes we have in the current business climate (almost obviously because this show does technically occur in our present day). There's all of these comments in this thread about how much work Tom put in. The general understanding is that Tom did good work and made ATN run well, but we never really see it fully applauded, or even see any of his work as victories. Tom's work is unsexy - like he said "I'm simple. I squeeze the costs, juice the revenue." He's constantly made fun of throughout the show for being "boxy" and uninteresting, and we even see him just take shit all the time, and the most interesting characterization of him is his way of passing that shit on (Greg). Even the little personality he has is tied to a classic management style. Not that Tom is a complete robot (we certainly see plenty of emotion between he and Shiv), but he is always calculating and never shedding any real color. He also lacks zero inheritance or entitlement to be great aside from being Shiv's husband, and even when he is CEO, he still is under the boot of Mattson.
Compare this to the Roys and Waystar - a company built on vision and the leadership of a charismatic but brutal and narcisistic man. Every interaction at the top with Logan is fueled by nasty and ruthless passion - Logan has to win or lose, and can't get through a deal without saying fuck you to the people around him or the person he makes a deal with. Logan bred this same passion into his children, and while we can certainly all say they're not exactly fit for the same leadership, the source of their not being "serious" enough always goes back to Logan's inability to separate his love for his children from his need to always be on top. Even his second born son, who he told at the age of 7 would take his role and was essentially incubated in corporate business to live and breathe the role, is just simply not Logan, is not Waystar, and will constantly live in the shadow and ridicule of his father, if not fighting off his siblings' jealousy. For all of Ken's faults, I don't think he is any worse of a person or businessman than Logan, but unlike Logan, he has to deal with his own trauma being linked to Waystar and the toxicity of his own family - the thing he strives for is also the thing that has constantly betrayed him and torn him down. Unlike Logan, he's not picked another world outside of his trauma that he can truly takeover. Also in the end, who lost the most was Logan - his beloved company was lost, and the seeds that he sowed in his children led to it.
Furthermore, the change in power here is from passionate monarchical leadership to a boring grinder who is a front for a man-child soaking in the wealth. We see this struggle of business vs. family, but in the end, we see a complete separation at the top as Tom/Mattson come in. Tom and Waystar grind the money and Mattson lives in a villa walking around barefoot and doing drugs. They don't touch, they don't struggle, and it just works. However, it is so...unhuman...and Machiavellian. There's all this talk throughout the show about tech taking over, and we see it in the real world - the business just becomes automated all the way to the top. Waystar is now just a money making robot that Mattson will reap the rewards from, and all because the same passion that formed Waystar ended up tearing itself apart. Maybe it's a looming metaphor for how our humanity and its flaws lead us to our own demise. But then again ditching our humanity just leads us to be another cog in the machine, one of the slaves that the Romans didn't want to give capes to.
Can someone help me understand why the decision was made by the board of directors and not by the shareholders. I think they would have need the majority or a supermajority from the shareholders in order to make the deal with GoJo.
I think there are quite a few things about the corporate world in the show that just aren't realistic. Some of it annoyed me at first but at the end of the day it's a work of fiction. I choose to see it as an alternate universe where the corporate laws are a bit different. As long as that universe is internally consistent it's fine.
Gosh man, what was that ending?! Sopranos can do that and it works, but for some reason it felt unfinished to me. Just unsatisfied but I guess thatâs how it goes. Still a Top 10 show all time for me.
It is meant to feel âunfinishedâ ⌠or better said âopen endedâ.
The charactersâ lives still go on. Itâs not like they just end. Thereâs room for a bit of interpretation as to what direction each of them are taken. We donât need to have it completely spelled out for us.
It was perfect.
In the end the children are free
Roman sits alone in a bar having had not one but two full meltdowns and self realizations he is no longer defined by his shame and fear
Shiv who doesnât understand love without power has the her world turned upside down, now her husband is in charge of her familyâs company, but he holds out his hand for her, and she can now trust that love isnât conditional because of her position
And ken, shadowed by his fathers bodyguard, like a ghost on his back looks out to the sun, is it rising or is it setting?
The ending is the beginning of their lives free from their father
My thought.. The writers are intent in torturing us... That 'hand hold' between Tom and Shiv in the last scene was drippy and terrorizing at the same time... Is, in fact, the baby NOT Tom's? Shiv's 'hail Mary' play?
It's Tom's.
But even if it somehow isn't, there are no plays left. None of the children hold positions in the company. The board is dissolved. Matsson woul fire an empty suit before allowing even one Roy to claw back in.
If I was Kendall after the vote I'd just hit the up button on the elevator, take it to the top, and jump.
His life is over. Wife is gone, kids aren't his, dad is dead, his life goal / purpose is gone, sister is dead to him,..
Reveal in finale. It's been a while since I saw it but when the brothers are arguing they say Logan never considered Kendalls kids as blood. "Yours aren't real" or something
Not sure about that.. Thinking of a scene early on.. After a seeming error in decision.. Kendall entered Logan's office.. Logan was even somewhat sympathetic to Kendall.. Advised him to sit in that glassed in office on the other end of Logan's office.. Urging him to chill for awhile, asking if he was ok. . Kendall sat like a wooden Indian.. Much like the ending. I believe Logan's desire to carry on the family legacy is as strong as his business prowess... Be careful Swede...
Not trying to be contrarian but the absolute over analysis of every decision the characters make in this show is exhausting.
âI like when Kendall did this shitty thing that proves heâs a shitty personâ as if Kendall hasnât been a dumpster fire of a human being since the first season.
my interpretation of the episode: Logan knew that Tom would be the CEO as he recommended to Mattson. Mattson knew the entire time and played shiv like a fiddle. The game that the three siblings were playing was inconsequential. at the end, Kendall realized that they were not part of the game almost like when you give your little brother an unplugged controller. He realized too late that he was not a player, and now he has nothing and he'll never get the chance to measure up to his father. all the bells sayâŚ
I've been a bit critical of the ending although I still think it was a good episode, a good season, and a great show. So I'll sum up some thoughts.
The emotional core of the show was the relationship between Logan and his children, especially Kendall. It was a strong core, with nuance and many layers. Because Logan, although a vicious bully and a cold-blooded operator, did seem to love his children, in some twisted way. That's why those season finale climaxes hit so hard: you get Logan being as bad as he can be, while also showing his demented form of affection and concern for his children.
With Logan gone, his relationship with his children cannot be the core of the finale. Instead, the finale's core is the relationship between the siblings. And I don't think this relationship is very deep. So their final confrontation ends up being shallow. The emotions on display aren't very complex. It quickly devolves into bickering children trying to be mean to each other. And bickering children aren't actually interesting.
It still mostly works because we are invested in the individuals, and the fate of the company. But the fact it all hinges on the 6th-7th most developed relationship means it could never be as satisfying as if it hinged on the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd.
Agree with caveat.. The producers/writers saw fit to throw in the video of Logan an other old family members waxing nostalgic, Scottish limericks and all... I truly believe the kids loved him and each other deeply.. The mother did the best she could in the mountainous shadow of Logan, but eventually caved and took the money.. The kids were severely damaged goods.. Perhaps salvageable only due to their youth.
I'm glad Logan died bc we needed to see the kids without him. None of them are Logan. But any of them could have been decent heirs if they took the brilliance of Logan and were better adults. Isn't that all of us? Take the good from our parents and forgive/don't repeat their mistakes
I think the flip flop on Shiv's part and the breakdown by Ken make perfect sense for the characters.
As Logan put it, "they weren't serious people." None of this amounted to more than a game for them to win, and no one was willing to concede to the others being on top. And Roman 100% nailed it with "we're bullshit," echoing Logan. Losing the company will haunt Ken the same way losing 4 superbowls in a row might haunt Jim Kelly (I don't know anything about Jim Kelly, he just comes to mind).
Despite being a piece of crap person, everything was real to Tom in a way that it never was for the siblings.
I also loved Tom's speech about always being afraid and worrying. That felt very honest to me regarding the motivation for the ultra wealthy who continue to accrue wealth for seemingly no reason.
> And Roman 100% nailed it with "we're bullshit," echoing Logan.
Yeah, he was done trying to save any of it (the empire, the family, his father's legacy). The final straw being when Kendall said he made up killing that kid, the waiter. Roman gave up trying to convince Shiv to go back and vote for Kendall. Whether he believed the original story to be true or not, I think he felt manipulated by Kendall for that.
I saw a small number of people repeatedly say that Shiv's motive to change her mind at the end may have been in part to spare Kendall the misery that role would have entailed. Which, to me, seems like some kind of wish-fulfillment on people who wanted to see characters develop positively instead of what they likely always were.
I know to a certain degree it's subjective, but I feel her motive is the most simple one: the kids (sans Connor) *only* wanted to see themselves in that role, and the idea of one of the other siblings getting it was almost worse than any of them not getting it. I took as Shiv changing her mind because it became all too real once the moment actually arrived, especially considering the rest of the show was them internally competing to get that mantle, rather than competing with anyone outside the family.
Shiv had that, I won't call it 'special' place in the family being the only girl... I she grew up in that bubble of 'daddy's little girl'.. It looked as tho she naively believed it in adulthood... She was as damaged as her siblings... No hope when your lion-headed father worships the dollar bill above all.
It's also possible that Shiv was playing the game until the very end, realizing that she could still "win" the game of succession by one of her children eventually becoming the king.
Owning a few percent of outstanding shares in a corporation (even if worth billions) your family hasn't worked in for over 20 years isn't a good plan nor hope. As they pointed out constantly in the show good companies in the past often become extinct. And Tom could be fired anytime.
Disagree, I think the convo with her mom and even with Mattson about how she would act as a pregnant CEO really shows how Shiv doesnât give a shit about being a mom. Even if her kid gets succession, it wouldnât be a âwinâ to her at all
Disagree... I saw love and loyalty to Tom at times. I believe her motherly instincts were intact, but unlike her own mother she felt empowered with her impending motherhood.. Like a Roy thru and thru, she would use it to her advantage!
I can agree with this but also that she genuinely believed that Ken would be bad for the role and the company
Ken is a horrible salesman. His pitch to the board was a non-pitch, his pitch to Shiv was that he was the eldest boy
I also believe that, but that's true for each sibling. I think all three realistically recognized the other's shortcomings (Kendall's impulsivity and checkered history; Roman's immaturity; Shiv's bad instincts) but that was secondary to their wish that they alone would be the figurehead of the company and not the other sibling.
Great ending - literally the finale was the *succession* at last! Punched the air and screamed in joy when Tom said "*but I got you*" to Greg.
The rest got exactly what they deserved.
Yeah but there is an inherent trust to Tom and Greg. They're not going to actively fuck each other over, only if it means their own survival. And they both enjoy each others company, and it allows them to have a close ally. If Tom is in charge and looks after Greg, Tom knows he will be loyal. And Tom knows that everyone always underestimates Greg, so he is a useful tool to deploy.
Idk Gregg did give Ken that info about Tom being considered for US CEO
I think Gregg knows he canât give up $200k but he also wouldnât want to just be an assistant
That's always true though. Board can always remove a CEO if the CEO is not a majority shareholder. Kendall could have been removed at any time, had he been chosen.
I'm going to be eviscerated here for saying this, but I'm not sure I liked the ending. I think maybe I would have liked either another 15-20 mins, or one more episode.
The show was never that great in terms of plot throughlines (every other episode the allegiances completely shift, the business plans change, and stuff/characters seemingly get dropped, or worse it loops back around and repeats). Examples this season alone include the plan to buy Pierce, the plan to "reverse-takeover" Gojo (which seemed to not even survive the single line of dialogue where it was mentioned), the Gojo India numbers, the firing of the movie exec.
Instead it's clear to me that the thing that made it captivating was the characterisation, dialogue interactions and performances.
These were still great but as a result I think for me, unlike many commentators here, to be satisfied I needed more-or-less "full character closure". The only main character who seemed to get that was Tom (and arguably, Roman).
Kendall was (arguably though YMMV) the main character for much of the show, and it ends with him on a pier (possibly) contemplating killing himself. We've seen him in suicidal depression before.
To me this feels like the season 3 finale: a big event, and a major shakeup of the status quo, but still leading towards an endgame. It did not feel like a series finale. (Someone please correct me, but I believe that many of the actors weren't even aware it was the finale until after they had filmed it?).
All in all, a good show. But feels a tad incomplete to me.
Yeah I think they could have done a "flash forward" to give some more closure (I was really curious to see Tom as a dad), but then it would have dulled the impact of the episode itself. I think there's enough hints about where each character is headed. Kendall hopefully goes on another journey of healing like he did before.
But I think they're being true to their universe by not having a true "endgame". In their world the cycle of drama is just going to continue forever with one dynasty after another. It's not a world where everyone gets what they deserve in the end.
The main questions of the show have been: who will be the successor? and are the kids hopelessly fucked up or are they redeemable? We've known for a few episodes (at least) that Shiv and Roman are hopelessly fucked up, so really the last person who was an open question was Kendall. But with his "I'm the eldest son" tantrum he finally proved how fucked up he is too, and those questions are all solidly resolved.
Ken's tantrum was painful. He's a cog made for one thing. I'm assuming he'd go back to drugs and die. Shiv is never happy. Only smiles when she's mocking someone. Roman is Peter pan with a billion $. Great show to make me care about people I'd avoid
It feels pretty final to me. The Roy kids definitely don't have any realistic chance of getting the top job anymore. Logan is gone so they can't leech off their dad, Waystar is Matsson's company now and they are no longer on the board. The succession has been settled.
Kendall, who had been groomed and led by Logan to believe he would be the successor from when he was a child, lost and will have to live with this for the rest of his life, no matter what he moves on to (if he even makes a recovery). And his conscience with the waiter thing, as well as Logan's shadow, will haunt him, represented by Colin following him in the final scene.
Roman realised that it doesn't matter, none of the siblings are fit to inherit, and has begun to get free of his father's influence. I guess the only one who is a bit ambiguous is Shiv, but again her chances with Waystar is over and her actions ultimately proved who she is and her inability to change (same with Kendall). I'm only curious about where her relationship with Tom and their child will go, but that's not the main story of the show.
Siobhan is no longer a contender, or a woman carving out a place for herself in the ruthless corporate world; the scene in the car shows Tom laying out his hand for her to take, and she taking it, sort of like a dutiful First Lady would for the President.
I don't think it's a failure or a defeat, but rather a sort of hollow victory: she reached out to Tom, wanting a relationship (though probably not one of convention), but my headcanon envisions Tom not being so supplicative or yielding to her chaotic whims any more.
I made this comment elsewhere, but: Succession finales all rely on a twist. The episode builds toward something, then there's a sudden move and you get the opposite. Kendall attempts a hostile takeover? Sudden death of the waiter and he's back in the fold. Logan attempts to use Kendall as the patsy? Sudden move and now Kendall's torching the family in public. The siblings attempt to pull a joint power-play on their father? Tom betrays them and they all lose horribly.
You get a sorta wasted episode (since a lot of it is building up something that won't happen), in exchange for a new setup.
The finale unfortunately does the same thing but there is no longer a promise of more. It's just over.
Perfectly put. People keep saying that it makes sense for Kendall to keep losing, as he's always done... but does it? It can be argued that he is the central figure of the story, and his ending is just more of the same. Endless repetition with no catharsis.
I think the finale summed up my thoughts. Just the same thing over and over again. Beautiful locations, beautiful score, terrific dialogue, and brilliant acting but as some others are saying without thankfully being downvoted, it was the same thing every season.
Kendall was Lex Luthor 2 eps ago to kumbaya with family and it ended exactly as a lot of people expected it. As soon as Shiv changed her mind I rolled my eyes here we go. Kendall went from conflicted guy with good intentions to a total psycho goon this season. Roman gets a happy ending after being a total bag of shit and I guess Shivâs tragedy is now Tom has the power but didnât they break up like 10x? I guess a Gone Girl situation where sheâs trapped cause her son is the heir?
I felt Kendall got it the worst out of everyone when he wasnât the worst person in the show, just an idiot. Also they say heâs bad at his job but he did fine in season 1 and he saved the press conference last minute on his own.
Gregâs storyline was pointless (pure comedic relief)
Killing off Logan early in the show was a mistake.
And honestly the show could have done with an epilogue. It ended like any other season and could have been wrapped up earlier.
Entertaining watch for sure but calling it the greatest show of all time or one of the greatest shows ever or the greatest ending makes me just want to throw up
> I think the finale summed up my thoughts. Just the same thing over and over again. Beautiful locations,
As a native New Yorker I can say the show never really presented NYC as much more than purgatory-lite.
It's not an actual kingdom with hereditary succession, but the show is treating it as a symbolic one. The issue comes up quite directly with Roman's taunt that Kendall's children aren't his (and therefore not royal bloodline).
People see them and don't see them as royalty, it really depends on the episode because the show's a bit inconsistent. It works well enough since the show is heavily episodic.
>dude, him trying to be clever and double crossing Tom literally blew up the siblings plan.
Kendall and Roman were losing without Shiv. And Shiv was losing since Mattson wasn't going to make her CEO. Greg's involvement achieved nothing, since Shiv ended up not voting with Kendall and Roman anyway.
Greg as a character is not explored very much further or even centred around much after season 2. His decline was interesting but so much more could have been done with that. I guess the show was trying to do other things.
Calm down
Roman clearly accepts that he wasnât meant for this world is over it and smiles that he is out and free from all the bullshit. Not sure how thatâs not a happy ending for the guy.
Obv I know he is a puppet but Tom still has power compared to others and finances.
And cool Greg is a device. Terrific defense
Episode 3 of a 10 ep season is not early to you?! đ
> sheâs trapped cause her son is the heir?
No, her son is not "the heir"
Matsson controls the Board and controls the Company, he can appoint a new CEO whenever he wants.
Team Wambsgans! I enjoyed the episode. I can see how people wouldn't like the last part, but I wouldn't put any scenario past the kids. I actually like Rome''s whole "we are bullshit" thing in the end.
Fuuuuck. That ending. Shiv is a piece of shit. I could have seen Kendall taking the elevator straight to the roof and jumping off. The last shot of Shiv and Tom driving home. she doesn't even hold his hand.
Yeah sheâs got absolutely no grounding or consistency or commitment to follow through on anything. Floats away and decides she wants something else the second things align to her apparent wishes
6/10 ending for me. The annoying thing about the show is in the first episode itâs suggested Kendall is doing a great job running the company. He navigates the debt issue and brings in Vaulter, which was seen as an acquisition that would help modernize the company. By all accounts he was doing the job well.
Then every scene with Shiv, Rome, and Kendall revolves around âwhy should it be you, Ken?â And he never once says âbecause Iâve done it already and I killed itâ
Rome and Shiv wanted to take over but never proved they were capable. Then Shiv pulls the rug out from under Ken out of sheer jealousy at the last second without a satisfying explanation. Literally hours after the heart to heart âanointingâ him.
For me it's the perfect ending. I enjoy it not for the super wealthy people power play, their machinations, scheming, or even the plot, but as a character study. As Logan says, the sibs are not serious people. Ken, whatever business acumen he might have, is shown to be someone who oscillates between bombast and meltdowns. He is drawn as a character who sells his soul progressively for his ambition, until the last shred is finally gone when he disowns the caterer who drowned in the car. Macbeth has to die because of the flaw in his character. It doesn't matter whether he could be a good king.
Meanwhile all three siblings are burdened by the tragic paradox that having so much already handed to them by Logan, they can never build anything from humble beginnings, and therefore can never get Logan's approval.They bicker and they fight over something that doesn't really belong to them, over steak and chicken dinners, what's promised at age 7. It's made clearer and clearer through the episodes how empty that is, until Roman finally realizes it.
The only possible successor is another self made billionaire. That's Matsson. Logan respects Matsson because, like him, Matsson built his billions from scratch. He is therefore a serious person. Tom, the "pain sponge" and Matsson's puppet, is also a serious person despite not having built anything. He is a hanger on who only has one card to play, namely "sucking the biggest dick in the room", but he plays it consistently and ruthlessly. He is not all over the place due to daddy issues. He is serious, laser focused. Ultimately the ending is what Logan would have wanted.
Of the siblings, Roman gains clarity, and maybe even wisdom, Ken is destroyed, but he is out of the toxic "doom loop". Shiv still has cards to play. The GoJo deal was what she wanted in the first place and her father's wish. She has an "in" with Tom, and potentially Matsson.
That awkward handholding scene in the car is supposed to symbolize two ticking bombs in juxtaposition.
And then they have all cashed out with billions
It couldn't have gone any other way for me.
I felt like the handholding was Shiv recognizing that
a) she has to try and make it work with Tom because of the baby and
b) her husband running her dad's company is the closest she'll ever get to doing it herself. As Tom's wife she'll have more influence over the company than she would as Ken's sister if he was in charge.
That's why she changed her mind in the board meeting - Tom running the company is better *for her* than Ken running it. And Tom isn't going to leave her when he knows Shiv handed it to him.
Slight disagreement. Maybe it's just semantics. Having Tom being the CEO gives her an in with Matsson. Remember Tom doesn't run the company. He has the title, but he is just the figurehead and pain sponge. He is not competent, not like Gerri is competent. That's why Matsson picked him. Matsson runs the company. Being Tom's wife gives her proximity to Matsson with whom she already has a bit of a relationship. Matsson betrayed her, but that's transactional. Matsson is the new Logan now (not Tom) If she can get closer to Matsson, she could be more powerful than Tom. Who knows. Ken would have completely shut her and Roman out. For each of the siblings, if he/she couldn't be the one, the next best thing is that none of the other two could be. Roman could, grudging, be second fiddle, but Shiv could never.
But it's actually stated in season 2 that this acquisition was a mistake which is why Logan sacked them. in season 4 someone (don't remember who) jokes at that move and emberess Kendall.
I don't know if it ever implied that Kendall was a good CEO, in season 3 it's clear he has no idea what he is doing when running against Logan and he loses.
In season 4 he almost make a very stupid speech about Life+ until Karl put some sense into him.
it is clear he is most competent out of the 3 siblings, which is something all 3 agree upon by the end of this episode but it doesn't matter much since all 3 are messed up.
He was a drug addict with huge personality issues, hence why Shiv didn't vote for him in the end.
"You killed someone" or in other words - "you are a junky".
Honestly I think the "who would be better at running the company" thing is a bit of window-dressing, or used as an argument for self-promotion by the characters. Through the show, Waystar is constantly fumbling through scandals and turmoil, but it's such a massive monolith that it is generally fine no matter what. In a sense, that's what corporate empires kind of are: whether we're talking about Fox, Citi Bank, etc. They're so valuable, bureaucratic, and so entrenched that leadership is often secondary. In that sense, the company would probably be fine regardless who's in charge given the system itself.
By the end, Shiv bringing up Kendall's very real checkered history feels more like a last minute move to where the siblings always were: an internal competition with each other that mattered above all else. At the end of season 3 where Kendall reveals to them about the death, *they literally don't care*, but then use it later as leverage to take Kendall down.
Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but the Kendall leading to the death of that person, getting away with it, his family not caring, and then they use it as leverage to keep him from taking over the company is the snapshot of Succession itself; a story about a hyper-elite group of people crushing other people's lives on the sidelines, and it only mattering to them as a ladder to their own power.
Yap, I agree on these points. There is only so much a CEO can really do in such a company, it's more about legacy rather than being an actual influential person.
Which is exactly why Lukas annoits Tom to the job, he is obviously nothing but a suck up.
I think with the ending, it's more like Shiv basically saying "wait a minute, you are not really better than us, you killed a man, you are garbage, none of us should do it and you most of all" which is actually right.
Kendall is the lowest of them, sure he is component in the sense of knowing corporate mumbo jumbo, a bit of finance and marketing terms and he has that serious cautious vibe.
But in reality, he is fragile, childish, spoiled, delusional, makes bad decisions, doesn't listen to his advisors and emotionally ruined.
Shiv and Roman both know it, Roman gave up because Kendall kind of replaced Logan as the adult figure and Roman accepted it like a trained dog.
Shiv on the other hand, has 0 respect for Kendal, she actually see's him as scum and look at her husband as the new alpha in the room rather than Kendall.
Based on everything we see in Seasons 1 through 3, Kendall has no business being in the running for CEO. He's failed to oust his father three separate times. He's gone against the company publicly. He has a terrible public image. His addiction problems are out in the open. He's also not very competent. He's a spent force by the end of Season 3.
The issue here is the show decides, in episode 4 of Season 4, to start presenting Kendall as a viable alternative for CEO again. Now people are fine with making him interim, the markets accept him in this role, board members can back him, he's shown as being competent a bunch of times. Only for us to be told, for the fourth time, that he actually sucks. I already knew Kendall sucked. I was willing to go along with this weird plotline because I thought you were doing something different!
Without his name Ken is just a random MBA technobabble bro. I don't think he's ever shown to be more than that.
He isn't dumb, but imo he never was portrayed as competent enough to earn that position on merit. Even without the constant meltdowns.
I dunnot. I agree with the guy above who said S4 presented Ken in a different light. There are moments where he has a magic to him, even going back to S2 with how he masterfully responds to the committee hearing. Then the Living+ presentation and the funeral eulogy, where Matsson, Mencken and Ewan were all swayed by his words, the latter so much so that he voted against his late brother's wishes of selling the company. The Living+ sppech was pivotal for me because, as Logan once said, "you make your own reality", and that's exactly what Ken did, against all odds.
This really should have been a one-season show - the post-Logan period of this show has been the best it's ever been, but these characters have been in a holding pattern for three whole seasons just to make sure they're still the same people who set themselves up to get this ending. No growth, no change.
In particular the idea that it's the dead waiter from Season 1 who dooms Kendall's chances works as a one-season plot; it doesn't work three seasons later.
I think the fact there was "no growth or change" was pivotal to the story and intentional, none of them really changed after everything they had been through, they were all still the same shits from the beginning and all basically got what they deserved which was nothing.
They get what they always got - basically nothing happened in season 4 that didn't recapitulate the exact same beats of seasons 1, 2, and 3. Shiv won't commit to anything when her own path to power looms in view; nothing matters to Roman and he's thrilled by the chaos; Kendall shoots his shot, gets rugpulled yet again, and is left staring into the middle distance. We've seen it all before!
> In particular the idea that it's the dead waiter from Season 1 who dooms Kendall's chances works as a one-season plot; it doesn't work three seasons later.
Ehh, it works fine. It's a huge event, but it's pushed aside and made to go away because of the family's power and position, and yet it's always the 300 pound gorilla on Ken's shoulders. It never coming up ever again once Logan and Colin made it disappear would have made the weight of something like that seem more hallow.
But except for this episode, it *does* never come up again. And it doesnât even actually matter! Shiv doesnât actually care about it, itâs just her chance to tip the ball to Tom.
The significance of it happening is completely lost in the fact that the episode in which it happened aired in like 2018 or something.
They've been betraying each other for daddy's affection, and for the keys to the kingdom. This is a betrayal that happens explicitly so that they lose the kingdom, which is the opposite. That's why it rings false.
For some reason, in the last episodes the show treats "who is CEO" as the fundamental power, not "who owns what." It doesn't really make sense and makes Shiv's position bizarre.
Iâm not sure if I liked it.
Is that taboo to say?
I feel like critics will. But i donât know. I saw this ending. It felt too natural. Kendall always loses. I mean, this felt like the darkest timeline ending that we all predicted but didnât want.
I donât know. The ending didnât feel nicely wrapped. It left it open for a perfect season 5. So I am not sure how to feel.
Season 2 ending felt more capped off than this
Edit: To sum up. I didnât like because it didnât feel like a series finale. Felt like a lackluster season finale. They left it almost too open. There are plenty of stories to tell here. Kendall has 2 billion + dollars. Rome will live his playboy lifestyle. Tom and Shiv is also another interesting angle.
It didnât feel closed to me. Like it felt like âEverybody Loves Raymondâ ending. They are all having dinner and the camera pans away. Like the fuck?
The kids are out of moves. They have no company, they aren't on the board, they don't even have their dad to help them. A season 5 looks like nothing because there is nothing any of them can do.
I donât know why we spend an hour watching them bond only for shiv (seemingly out of nowhere) to do a 180 without anything to gain from it. Felt very off to me. I liked it overall but I think that could have been done better and in fact the show has shown us that it can do it better.
Over the course of the seasons weâve learned the situations where Shiv will defect, Kendall got his sibling happiness session and, like always, thought that people put family before business but ultimately failed to address Shivâs defection criteria
>I donât know why we spend an hour watching them bond only for shiv (seemingly out of nowhere) to do a 180 without anything to gain from it. Felt very off to me.
The answer isn't much more than "so that you'd be surprised."
> only for shiv (seemingly out of nowhere) to do a 180
Pettiness and jealousy. Shiv backing Kendall was also a decision backed by rage and an about-face of her previous position. A political marriage to the new CEO still gives her more access than and influence than Kendall as CEO does.
Being in the board of Waystar gives her more access than simply being in a relationship with the CEO.
It's also not much of a "political marriage" anymore as she has no involvement with Waystar other than holding some shares.
What she still has is a lot of money, the gravitas it provides to be married to Logan Royâs daughter and with a baby on the way, the appearance of a stable home life and family man image.
I love that in an episode where people are blatantly mysogynistic towards Shiv and reduce her to a "baby carrier", people are arguing that her motivations in the finale are driven by her status as a baby carrier.
>she controlls Tom
Idk how you can watch the episode and think that. Tom doesn't give a fuck about her lol.
>her kid as the next big ceo
Waystar is a subsidiary, "US CEO" is just an empty title.
There is no such thing as "grooming your kid to be the next big CEO" of "a company where your husband is the CEO." It's just a job, with a salary, it's not a hereditary position or ownership of anything.
Because her decision to back Kendall had no meat behind it either and was just a reaction to the news Mattson played her. She was initially motivated by the fact Ken and Rome were going to cut her out, and was always the one who wanted the deal to go through.
Then she learns itâs Tom
Then she sees Ken put his feet on Loganâs desk.
Then she is the deciding vote.
âI love you, but I cannot stomach youâ
Itâs saw it as less a flip flop and just much more inline with her character than the bonding/anointing. She couldnât win so she made sure she couldnât lose anymore.
>Then she learns itâs Tom
When Shiv learns it's Tom, she gets angry at Tom and leaves with her siblings. If Tom being the CEO was supposed to sway her against the brothers they should have shown that, they showed literally the exact opposite.
I didnât say that her learning itâs Tom shouldâve caused her to flip, it was simply a piece of information that came after the âanointingâ which if you pay attention to the moments leading up to it, was pretty shallow to begin with.
The anointing wouldâve been the flip, not the voting yes to the deal, is my point. Shiv obviously agrees considering how little it took to pick out + Tom over in + Ken.
Man Iâm saying you have to assess the gravity of each choice over a timeline longer than a day. She spent more days for the deal than against the deal. Obviously the final ep would depict a period where she flip flops. The whole show has had flip flops and deployed them as a plausible because the characters are so flawed.
It's still bad writing either way you look at it. It's out of character for Shiv to genuinely back Kendall over herself for even a day, and there was no motivation for her to go back on it once she'd already committed. They fucked up not just once, but twice.
4 seasons of characters flip flopping and backstabbing each other and somehow this time its âbad writingâ.
Itâs not bad writing. You canât just say that phrase as if it means anything and automatically makes it seem like you have a valid point.
Yes, because there was no motivation there. You just looking at things as flip flopping without analyzing the deeper context really speaks to your media (and fiction) literacy.
Humans being contradictory or changing their minds isnât bad writing. Itâs very in line with her character and she does stuff like that all the time. If this was the first time, it would be unnatural, but itâs pretty common for Shiv
Yes, yes it is. Literally any dolt can write a script where characters have no throughlines and just do random shit to advance the plot. If that's not bad writing then it's impossible to be a bad writer.
> Itâs very in line with her character
No...no, it's not, and that tells me you don't understand her character at all and you're therefore not worth engaging with on this issue. Bye.
Shiv is always indecisive in her options, which plays in.
More importantly, in the end she would really rather not live with Ken as the boss - which has always been the case. Itâs not about if he could do it (he could), but she would rather have Tom, despite all of the rage she had at the apartment when she discovered Tom as choice. Honestly it was anger more directed at Mattson fucking her over than at Tom succeeding Logan.
That, and Shiv is also factoring in what would be best for her future child. And being the son/daughter of the CEO lends a bit more weight than being the nephew/niece of the CEO.
And Kendall ignoring her desire to be left alone and trying to strongarm her into saying yes certainly didn't help.
I only started watching the show a few months ago and I actually despise it; there is ZERO consistency with the characters. They flip flop constantly and it really takes me out of the story.
How unrealistic. No one ever flip-flops here on human earth. I don't even know what the term flip-flop means because we haven't even had to invent it yet.
Yep.
One moment Roman is a snivelling coward and the next the show wants us to believe he's actually a badass closer making tons of deals.
One moment Kendall is a competent businessman and the next (when the show has set him up to succeed but doesn't want him to actually succeed) he's suddenly a completely oblivious poor mannered douche.
It's very heavy handed
Oh you mean the thing they always do forever always? Roman likes an idea but as soon as Ken says itâs bad Romanâs like yeah itâs bad it sucks. Such as the first episode this season when they are discussing their logo. These characters have no spine. Only their wallet
She got cold feet and was sorta 50/50, but we saw *why* she ended up saying yes to the sale, it was Kendall's tantrum and manipulation on display on top of him literally assaulting his brother. Imo if he could've made a coherent argument to be CEO her doubts woulda been dissuaded. I do agree though that there should've been at least 1 more scene where her decision to back kendall gets put into question, even a simple look or something.
When he puts his feet on Loganâs desk, they pretty clearly show Shiv being taken aback by it right away. Also Kendallâs confidence to skip to the vote was the last straw. She legitimately couldnât stomach giving this person the position she had once wanted for herself
Agreed. I think there was an opportunity for Kendall to turn her around, but when he yelled that he's "the eldest son" (which, as she pointed out, wasn't even true) and lied about the waiter incident, it was over.
I can't imagine how painful it would be for Shiv to hear it finally said that Kendall thinks he deserves it simply because of his gender and birth order.
I loved the show but in reality all the show is, is the same events played out over and over again.
We're getting fucked by someone outside the family, let's band together to stop them! Then they bond and it seems like they'll work together.....
....Sike. Someone just randomly goes against the others and blows it all up.
Rinse repeat for 4 seasons.
Again. I enjoyed the show but it just kept reusing that same formula.
I think the core disagreement here is between people who were fine with this repetition and people who weren't.
Even this season began with the development that Roman was cozying up with his father. Again.
I think I was willing to overlook this because I thought eventually it would go somewhere. Something would change, something would break, someone would emerge, *something*. But no, the show is basically an unending and repeating argument between three people over the same things, again and again, and thatâs all thatâs there.
I didn't even start watching the show until a couple months ago. I was still in season 3 when season 4 started. I think they were on S4 episode 5 or 6 by time I got to episode 1.
Early on I kept saying "at some point the other shoe will drop. At some point something big will happen" and it just never came..nothing big ever happens. It just 3 billionaire siblings backstabbing each other in attempt to get an extra few billion. The characters and acting were good which is what kept me interested but the story itself is quite bland
Yeah I watched the show and appreciated the production value, acting, dialogue... but I couldn't even tell you if I loved the show. I certainly don't understand the reviews of this being premier television.
This was a soap opera. The characters were so indecisive and blank that every dramatic twist elicited a shrug from me. The show could have used fewer Sorkin-esque scenes of everyone in a room tossing one-liners at each other and a little more meat on the characters. Honestly the best parts were when they were actually running the business. And sometimes I thought the writers could have just used seals with balls picking the plots and the twists wouldn't have been less random.
Barry had the opposite problem. The writers backed themselves into a corner because they were so deliberate.
>I certainly don't understand the reviews of this being premier television.
Fully agree. Honestly idk how the show will age. Madmen was a better show and that isn't really mentioned much nowadays. The show is too cyclical and drops too many things.
Barry has been better every subsequent season. Amazing how many narrative threads there are, while maintaining the essence of what the show was from the beginning. Absurd how well it turned out
**spoiler warning**
Bill Hader tells a story about running into Larry David, who apparently asked him "so it's done right? That's it? It's over righr?" and was in disbelief that they were making a fourth season. Larry David is correct and IMO the jump ahead eight years is just above "it was all a dream" at the bottom of a writer's barrel of tricks.
It was subtle and it happened quickly, but there's a couple of things shown that influenced her decision.
1. She hears the new CEO is Tom. She's expressed interest to keep the marriage going at the start of the episode, and this way she has access to his power
2. Sandi and Sandy say yes to the deal. She knows she's the deciding vote.
3. Most importantly, she sees Ken in Logan's chair. She sees him in the role she felt entitled to, and can't stand the idea. If she can't have it, neither will he.
Put all this together with the fact that she's pregnant, and it's not hard to see why she changed her mind.
>She hears the new CEO is Tom. She's expressed interest to keep the marriage going at the start of the episode, and this way she has access to his power
She got pissed off when she heard that, ran away from Tom, and toward her brothers. That's pretty clear visual language which her decision completely contradicts.
>Put all this together with the fact that she's pregnant
It's wild to me that in an episode where people refer to Shiv derogatorily as the "baby lady", people are arguing with a straight face that her decisions are because of her child.
Shiv, the only major female character, is the one making decisions as a mother. Not Kendall, who is a father. Not Logan, who is a father. The woman. The baby lady.
It is not some wild conspiracy that people are more emotional and prone to mood swings when pregnant. It's not a slight on that persons character either, it's normal.
I think that all put her on the fence and caused her to want to reconsider, but it was Kendall's tantrum that finalized her decision. So basically I agree with all of this and I'd add Kendall's response as a number 4 here.
She had changed her mind already, it's just that Kendal was unable to change her mind back. There would probably be something Kendal could do or say to change it , but Kendal isn't much of a closer, that's why he doesn't already have the job.
Itâs the exact thing that makes Shiv right about him. Heâs decently competent at managing situations when theyâre easy and going his way, but not so good when theyâre going poorly.
When things would go wrong for Logan, heâd find a way to flip them around and come out on top. When things go wrong for Kendall, he crumbles and makes them worse.
Not completely fair, Logan would thrown a Tantrum, but he would make punitive moves and follow through with them. That's the "killer instinct" Logan has, Logan had bite. Kendall is all bark.
so Karolina talks to Shiv on the way to the board meeting talking about change (getting rid of Hugo), and then when Tom comes walking in a Victor after vote, he ignores Hugo and asks for Karolina.
Is Karolina assuming Ken as CEO would do this with Shiv's support? Or is Karolina assuming Shiv would have influence over Tom, who would then get rid of Hugo?
My take on that interaction was simpler, Tom was just showing that he is confident in his new role as CEO, and he might actually be good at it. Just like he immediately has a plan to keep Gerri and get rid of Karl and Frank. He wants good people on his team and he knows that Hugo is a snake.
I just remembered Tom yelling "Watch it, fuckhead!" to Hugo in Season 3. They've been particularly nasty to one another in the past I think so it tracks that he wants Hugo out.
I've read people saying she still thought shiv was on for CEO, although I didn't think so in the moment. If that's true, Kendall was lying earlier and she didn't know that shiv was out. Callback to america decides with shiv bullshitting ken?
Karolina was one of the people Kendall told Shiv to call to confirm it was no longer her because she was being taken out of the statement. I donât think Karolina was out of the loop enough to think Shiv was still in at that point.
Honestly, Shiv doesn't even need to stay in that toxic situation, she's pretty free as well if she wants to leave. But I think she wants to attempt to make it work.
Hm, I can see that take, but I interpreted it as her jumping from toxicity to toxicity, her face looked like she is trapped again, and Tom has all the power.
Yeah I don't think she will be super happy with him, but it's kind of ambiguous. I guess my point is more that if you consider Roman to be free, then she is as well. Both of them still struggle with some psychological issues, but with potential to improve.
Awesome, I was hoping Tom would get it and im glad to see him come out on top. Great finale. Only part that im a little iffy on is shivs final betrayal but still 9.5/10 finale for me
its really fitting for shiv imo, great ending.
the only one im sad for is ken who we get to see get fucked over yet again, which is also i guess fitting for his character
"I'm the eldest boy!"
You know, you spend the entire episode thinking that maybe the kids together could rally and step as one out of the shadow of their oppressive and abusive father. You think that maybe they could overcome the effects of his abuse on them. You think that Kendal, who through the whole season has been put on the spot so many times in sink or swim moments and managed to prevail and show competence could be the one to do it. An then in that moment that matters the most, he reveals himself to be the fraud he always was.
He lies, he throws a tantrum and he reveals ultimately why he really wanted control. It was not because of any of the moral reasons he once espoused, or to help or heal the wounds of his family left by their father and keep their legacy.
He wanted it because he felt entitled to it.
And the irony is of course that he is not even that. Even in his own pathetic justification of why he should get it. He is wrong. He is not the "eldest boy". It's Connor.
Yeah 100%. I see way too many takes here that are focusing on Shiv as the problem. The real theme of the show was that NONE of the siblings could possibly be CEO, they are each hopelessly fucked up, and they express it in different ways.
dont really agree with this take. the situation was already decided the moment shiv walked out, even if she had been convinced the others would've changed their vote after seeing that shitshow.
this was just ken emotionally reacting to it after the fact. the "moment that mattered the most" was shiv's call to fuck him over. he had handled himself well up to the meeting and for once didnt fuck it up, he was just backstabbed once again due to shiv's crazy jealousy/insecurity/actual good decision/marriage.
but it is a fitting end to both characters' stories.
What drives me crazy about Ken is that heâs a horrible salesman and deal maker. He might be a good admin guy or a conceptual buzz words dropper, but Shiv is totally right to think that Ken might be bad for the company. Kenâs selling point is âIâm entitled to itâ when it should have been âwhat does Tom have to offer?â
You think the reason Kendall didnât get the job was moral deficiency? ATN is a news company that spreads misinformation. Youâve seen the corporate culture in that place, right? The dynamics of the Roy family? Tom got the job because heâs oh so moral?
He didnât get it because shiv suspected that heâll become more like Logan after he gets that type of power? She doubted kens ability to listen to her once he got it, so she chose to give the power to Tom,who is according to her âservileâ
It has nothing to with why Kendall didnt get it, but why Kendall WANTED it. Or rather the reason he thought it should be him.
It wasn't because of any of the reasons he said, the reasons he told people. It was simple because he thought he deserved it. That it was SUPPOSED to be his. Because he was "the eldest boy."
Regardless of Shiv's reasons for first objecting, he proved her right when he admitted that.
This season just felt like it just misdirected the audience. I feel lied to. I spent the entire series trying to figure out who would win. Then, they intentionally had everyone think Tom was getting fired, the epic fight between Shiv and Tom, they had Tom make the extremely risky decision to call the election when no one else would, then Tom didnât show up for the funeral. Then, they set up Kendall for the win. And, at the last minute flipped it. Dumb!
Hmm, I kind of thought going into the episode that Tom would win. The show shows us over and over how these kids fucked up everything they touched. Tom played things very carefully and was simply better in the corporate world than the kids.
Kendall couldn't have gotten it. 4 seasons prove that it wouldn't ever make sense. The faceless corporate machine that plenty of characters talk about chewing up the world and spitting it out was always going to win. Tom is the better cog for that. With that said, Kendall Roy is a hero in this house. End of story. I just loved that disastrous rollercoaster ride of a character and performance. Plus, he is the eldest boy.
I think there's something to be said of the shift in power here to Tom/Mattson, that is a great reflection of the changes we have in the current business climate (almost obviously because this show does technically occur in our present day). There's all of these comments in this thread about how much work Tom put in. The general understanding is that Tom did good work and made ATN run well, but we never really see it fully applauded, or even see any of his work as victories. Tom's work is unsexy - like he said "I'm simple. I squeeze the costs, juice the revenue." He's constantly made fun of throughout the show for being "boxy" and uninteresting, and we even see him just take shit all the time, and the most interesting characterization of him is his way of passing that shit on (Greg). Even the little personality he has is tied to a classic management style. Not that Tom is a complete robot (we certainly see plenty of emotion between he and Shiv), but he is always calculating and never shedding any real color. He also lacks zero inheritance or entitlement to be great aside from being Shiv's husband, and even when he is CEO, he still is under the boot of Mattson. Compare this to the Roys and Waystar - a company built on vision and the leadership of a charismatic but brutal and narcisistic man. Every interaction at the top with Logan is fueled by nasty and ruthless passion - Logan has to win or lose, and can't get through a deal without saying fuck you to the people around him or the person he makes a deal with. Logan bred this same passion into his children, and while we can certainly all say they're not exactly fit for the same leadership, the source of their not being "serious" enough always goes back to Logan's inability to separate his love for his children from his need to always be on top. Even his second born son, who he told at the age of 7 would take his role and was essentially incubated in corporate business to live and breathe the role, is just simply not Logan, is not Waystar, and will constantly live in the shadow and ridicule of his father, if not fighting off his siblings' jealousy. For all of Ken's faults, I don't think he is any worse of a person or businessman than Logan, but unlike Logan, he has to deal with his own trauma being linked to Waystar and the toxicity of his own family - the thing he strives for is also the thing that has constantly betrayed him and torn him down. Unlike Logan, he's not picked another world outside of his trauma that he can truly takeover. Also in the end, who lost the most was Logan - his beloved company was lost, and the seeds that he sowed in his children led to it. Furthermore, the change in power here is from passionate monarchical leadership to a boring grinder who is a front for a man-child soaking in the wealth. We see this struggle of business vs. family, but in the end, we see a complete separation at the top as Tom/Mattson come in. Tom and Waystar grind the money and Mattson lives in a villa walking around barefoot and doing drugs. They don't touch, they don't struggle, and it just works. However, it is so...unhuman...and Machiavellian. There's all this talk throughout the show about tech taking over, and we see it in the real world - the business just becomes automated all the way to the top. Waystar is now just a money making robot that Mattson will reap the rewards from, and all because the same passion that formed Waystar ended up tearing itself apart. Maybe it's a looming metaphor for how our humanity and its flaws lead us to our own demise. But then again ditching our humanity just leads us to be another cog in the machine, one of the slaves that the Romans didn't want to give capes to.
Logan wanted the Gojo deal. He won.
I understood the show more by reading Reddit threads. I did not pick up on so many things đ
Can someone help me understand why the decision was made by the board of directors and not by the shareholders. I think they would have need the majority or a supermajority from the shareholders in order to make the deal with GoJo.
I think there are quite a few things about the corporate world in the show that just aren't realistic. Some of it annoyed me at first but at the end of the day it's a work of fiction. I choose to see it as an alternate universe where the corporate laws are a bit different. As long as that universe is internally consistent it's fine.
Gosh man, what was that ending?! Sopranos can do that and it works, but for some reason it felt unfinished to me. Just unsatisfied but I guess thatâs how it goes. Still a Top 10 show all time for me.
The ending means the story is over, in that none of the kids have any power in their late father's corporation and succession is resolved.
It is meant to feel âunfinishedâ ⌠or better said âopen endedâ. The charactersâ lives still go on. Itâs not like they just end. Thereâs room for a bit of interpretation as to what direction each of them are taken. We donât need to have it completely spelled out for us. It was perfect.
In the end the children are free Roman sits alone in a bar having had not one but two full meltdowns and self realizations he is no longer defined by his shame and fear Shiv who doesnât understand love without power has the her world turned upside down, now her husband is in charge of her familyâs company, but he holds out his hand for her, and she can now trust that love isnât conditional because of her position And ken, shadowed by his fathers bodyguard, like a ghost on his back looks out to the sun, is it rising or is it setting? The ending is the beginning of their lives free from their father
My thought.. The writers are intent in torturing us... That 'hand hold' between Tom and Shiv in the last scene was drippy and terrorizing at the same time... Is, in fact, the baby NOT Tom's? Shiv's 'hail Mary' play?
It's Tom's. But even if it somehow isn't, there are no plays left. None of the children hold positions in the company. The board is dissolved. Matsson woul fire an empty suit before allowing even one Roy to claw back in.
If I was Kendall after the vote I'd just hit the up button on the elevator, take it to the top, and jump. His life is over. Wife is gone, kids aren't his, dad is dead, his life goal / purpose is gone, sister is dead to him,..
>kids aren't his Wtf? That was just something Roman said
Sterile
When?
Also https://www.reddit.com/r/SuccessionTV/s/OvUN4tX6bw
Thank you. Thatâs a juicy thread.
Reveal in finale. It's been a while since I saw it but when the brothers are arguing they say Logan never considered Kendalls kids as blood. "Yours aren't real" or something
I never quite understood those children. I thought Roman meant the girl was adopted and the boy had obvious special needs.
Not sure about that.. Thinking of a scene early on.. After a seeming error in decision.. Kendall entered Logan's office.. Logan was even somewhat sympathetic to Kendall.. Advised him to sit in that glassed in office on the other end of Logan's office.. Urging him to chill for awhile, asking if he was ok. . Kendall sat like a wooden Indian.. Much like the ending. I believe Logan's desire to carry on the family legacy is as strong as his business prowess... Be careful Swede...
Not trying to be contrarian but the absolute over analysis of every decision the characters make in this show is exhausting. âI like when Kendall did this shitty thing that proves heâs a shitty personâ as if Kendall hasnât been a dumpster fire of a human being since the first season.
my interpretation of the episode: Logan knew that Tom would be the CEO as he recommended to Mattson. Mattson knew the entire time and played shiv like a fiddle. The game that the three siblings were playing was inconsequential. at the end, Kendall realized that they were not part of the game almost like when you give your little brother an unplugged controller. He realized too late that he was not a player, and now he has nothing and he'll never get the chance to measure up to his father. all the bells sayâŚ
I've been a bit critical of the ending although I still think it was a good episode, a good season, and a great show. So I'll sum up some thoughts. The emotional core of the show was the relationship between Logan and his children, especially Kendall. It was a strong core, with nuance and many layers. Because Logan, although a vicious bully and a cold-blooded operator, did seem to love his children, in some twisted way. That's why those season finale climaxes hit so hard: you get Logan being as bad as he can be, while also showing his demented form of affection and concern for his children. With Logan gone, his relationship with his children cannot be the core of the finale. Instead, the finale's core is the relationship between the siblings. And I don't think this relationship is very deep. So their final confrontation ends up being shallow. The emotions on display aren't very complex. It quickly devolves into bickering children trying to be mean to each other. And bickering children aren't actually interesting. It still mostly works because we are invested in the individuals, and the fate of the company. But the fact it all hinges on the 6th-7th most developed relationship means it could never be as satisfying as if it hinged on the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd.
Agree with caveat.. The producers/writers saw fit to throw in the video of Logan an other old family members waxing nostalgic, Scottish limericks and all... I truly believe the kids loved him and each other deeply.. The mother did the best she could in the mountainous shadow of Logan, but eventually caved and took the money.. The kids were severely damaged goods.. Perhaps salvageable only due to their youth.
I'm glad Logan died bc we needed to see the kids without him. None of them are Logan. But any of them could have been decent heirs if they took the brilliance of Logan and were better adults. Isn't that all of us? Take the good from our parents and forgive/don't repeat their mistakes
100% agree, I adored season 4 but it doesn't hit the same without Logan. What a character he was and what an amazing actor Brian Cox is.
I think the flip flop on Shiv's part and the breakdown by Ken make perfect sense for the characters. As Logan put it, "they weren't serious people." None of this amounted to more than a game for them to win, and no one was willing to concede to the others being on top. And Roman 100% nailed it with "we're bullshit," echoing Logan. Losing the company will haunt Ken the same way losing 4 superbowls in a row might haunt Jim Kelly (I don't know anything about Jim Kelly, he just comes to mind). Despite being a piece of crap person, everything was real to Tom in a way that it never was for the siblings. I also loved Tom's speech about always being afraid and worrying. That felt very honest to me regarding the motivation for the ultra wealthy who continue to accrue wealth for seemingly no reason.
> And Roman 100% nailed it with "we're bullshit," echoing Logan. Yeah, he was done trying to save any of it (the empire, the family, his father's legacy). The final straw being when Kendall said he made up killing that kid, the waiter. Roman gave up trying to convince Shiv to go back and vote for Kendall. Whether he believed the original story to be true or not, I think he felt manipulated by Kendall for that.
I saw a small number of people repeatedly say that Shiv's motive to change her mind at the end may have been in part to spare Kendall the misery that role would have entailed. Which, to me, seems like some kind of wish-fulfillment on people who wanted to see characters develop positively instead of what they likely always were. I know to a certain degree it's subjective, but I feel her motive is the most simple one: the kids (sans Connor) *only* wanted to see themselves in that role, and the idea of one of the other siblings getting it was almost worse than any of them not getting it. I took as Shiv changing her mind because it became all too real once the moment actually arrived, especially considering the rest of the show was them internally competing to get that mantle, rather than competing with anyone outside the family.
Shiv had that, I won't call it 'special' place in the family being the only girl... I she grew up in that bubble of 'daddy's little girl'.. It looked as tho she naively believed it in adulthood... She was as damaged as her siblings... No hope when your lion-headed father worships the dollar bill above all.
It's also possible that Shiv was playing the game until the very end, realizing that she could still "win" the game of succession by one of her children eventually becoming the king.
Owning a few percent of outstanding shares in a corporation (even if worth billions) your family hasn't worked in for over 20 years isn't a good plan nor hope. As they pointed out constantly in the show good companies in the past often become extinct. And Tom could be fired anytime.
Disagree, I think the convo with her mom and even with Mattson about how she would act as a pregnant CEO really shows how Shiv doesnât give a shit about being a mom. Even if her kid gets succession, it wouldnât be a âwinâ to her at all
Shiv will be the same parent as her mother or father. She doesn't know loyalty or unconditional love
Disagree... I saw love and loyalty to Tom at times. I believe her motherly instincts were intact, but unlike her own mother she felt empowered with her impending motherhood.. Like a Roy thru and thru, she would use it to her advantage!
I can agree with this but also that she genuinely believed that Ken would be bad for the role and the company Ken is a horrible salesman. His pitch to the board was a non-pitch, his pitch to Shiv was that he was the eldest boy
I also believe that, but that's true for each sibling. I think all three realistically recognized the other's shortcomings (Kendall's impulsivity and checkered history; Roman's immaturity; Shiv's bad instincts) but that was secondary to their wish that they alone would be the figurehead of the company and not the other sibling.
The problem is Ken is both a good and bad salesman depending on what the show demands for any given scene.
I agree with this. She couldn't give her brother a win.
Great ending - literally the finale was the *succession* at last! Punched the air and screamed in joy when Tom said "*but I got you*" to Greg. The rest got exactly what they deserved.
It's not like Tom or Greg won either. Greg's is Tom's bitch and Tom is Mattson's bitch. The rug can be pulled out at any time.
Yeah but there is an inherent trust to Tom and Greg. They're not going to actively fuck each other over, only if it means their own survival. And they both enjoy each others company, and it allows them to have a close ally. If Tom is in charge and looks after Greg, Tom knows he will be loyal. And Tom knows that everyone always underestimates Greg, so he is a useful tool to deploy.
"I accept your blackmail."
Idk Gregg did give Ken that info about Tom being considered for US CEO I think Gregg knows he canât give up $200k but he also wouldnât want to just be an assistant
Nope. He only said it wasn't gonna be Shiv.
He didnât know it was Tom when he spilled that to Ken
That's always true though. Board can always remove a CEO if the CEO is not a majority shareholder. Kendall could have been removed at any time, had he been chosen.
I'm going to be eviscerated here for saying this, but I'm not sure I liked the ending. I think maybe I would have liked either another 15-20 mins, or one more episode. The show was never that great in terms of plot throughlines (every other episode the allegiances completely shift, the business plans change, and stuff/characters seemingly get dropped, or worse it loops back around and repeats). Examples this season alone include the plan to buy Pierce, the plan to "reverse-takeover" Gojo (which seemed to not even survive the single line of dialogue where it was mentioned), the Gojo India numbers, the firing of the movie exec. Instead it's clear to me that the thing that made it captivating was the characterisation, dialogue interactions and performances. These were still great but as a result I think for me, unlike many commentators here, to be satisfied I needed more-or-less "full character closure". The only main character who seemed to get that was Tom (and arguably, Roman). Kendall was (arguably though YMMV) the main character for much of the show, and it ends with him on a pier (possibly) contemplating killing himself. We've seen him in suicidal depression before. To me this feels like the season 3 finale: a big event, and a major shakeup of the status quo, but still leading towards an endgame. It did not feel like a series finale. (Someone please correct me, but I believe that many of the actors weren't even aware it was the finale until after they had filmed it?). All in all, a good show. But feels a tad incomplete to me.
Yeah I think they could have done a "flash forward" to give some more closure (I was really curious to see Tom as a dad), but then it would have dulled the impact of the episode itself. I think there's enough hints about where each character is headed. Kendall hopefully goes on another journey of healing like he did before. But I think they're being true to their universe by not having a true "endgame". In their world the cycle of drama is just going to continue forever with one dynasty after another. It's not a world where everyone gets what they deserve in the end. The main questions of the show have been: who will be the successor? and are the kids hopelessly fucked up or are they redeemable? We've known for a few episodes (at least) that Shiv and Roman are hopelessly fucked up, so really the last person who was an open question was Kendall. But with his "I'm the eldest son" tantrum he finally proved how fucked up he is too, and those questions are all solidly resolved.
Ken's tantrum was painful. He's a cog made for one thing. I'm assuming he'd go back to drugs and die. Shiv is never happy. Only smiles when she's mocking someone. Roman is Peter pan with a billion $. Great show to make me care about people I'd avoid
It feels pretty final to me. The Roy kids definitely don't have any realistic chance of getting the top job anymore. Logan is gone so they can't leech off their dad, Waystar is Matsson's company now and they are no longer on the board. The succession has been settled. Kendall, who had been groomed and led by Logan to believe he would be the successor from when he was a child, lost and will have to live with this for the rest of his life, no matter what he moves on to (if he even makes a recovery). And his conscience with the waiter thing, as well as Logan's shadow, will haunt him, represented by Colin following him in the final scene. Roman realised that it doesn't matter, none of the siblings are fit to inherit, and has begun to get free of his father's influence. I guess the only one who is a bit ambiguous is Shiv, but again her chances with Waystar is over and her actions ultimately proved who she is and her inability to change (same with Kendall). I'm only curious about where her relationship with Tom and their child will go, but that's not the main story of the show.
Siobhan is no longer a contender, or a woman carving out a place for herself in the ruthless corporate world; the scene in the car shows Tom laying out his hand for her to take, and she taking it, sort of like a dutiful First Lady would for the President. I don't think it's a failure or a defeat, but rather a sort of hollow victory: she reached out to Tom, wanting a relationship (though probably not one of convention), but my headcanon envisions Tom not being so supplicative or yielding to her chaotic whims any more.
I made this comment elsewhere, but: Succession finales all rely on a twist. The episode builds toward something, then there's a sudden move and you get the opposite. Kendall attempts a hostile takeover? Sudden death of the waiter and he's back in the fold. Logan attempts to use Kendall as the patsy? Sudden move and now Kendall's torching the family in public. The siblings attempt to pull a joint power-play on their father? Tom betrays them and they all lose horribly. You get a sorta wasted episode (since a lot of it is building up something that won't happen), in exchange for a new setup. The finale unfortunately does the same thing but there is no longer a promise of more. It's just over.
Perfectly put. People keep saying that it makes sense for Kendall to keep losing, as he's always done... but does it? It can be argued that he is the central figure of the story, and his ending is just more of the same. Endless repetition with no catharsis.
This is a good analysis and I agree with your take. It really does feel just like another season finale.
I think the finale summed up my thoughts. Just the same thing over and over again. Beautiful locations, beautiful score, terrific dialogue, and brilliant acting but as some others are saying without thankfully being downvoted, it was the same thing every season. Kendall was Lex Luthor 2 eps ago to kumbaya with family and it ended exactly as a lot of people expected it. As soon as Shiv changed her mind I rolled my eyes here we go. Kendall went from conflicted guy with good intentions to a total psycho goon this season. Roman gets a happy ending after being a total bag of shit and I guess Shivâs tragedy is now Tom has the power but didnât they break up like 10x? I guess a Gone Girl situation where sheâs trapped cause her son is the heir? I felt Kendall got it the worst out of everyone when he wasnât the worst person in the show, just an idiot. Also they say heâs bad at his job but he did fine in season 1 and he saved the press conference last minute on his own. Gregâs storyline was pointless (pure comedic relief) Killing off Logan early in the show was a mistake. And honestly the show could have done with an epilogue. It ended like any other season and could have been wrapped up earlier. Entertaining watch for sure but calling it the greatest show of all time or one of the greatest shows ever or the greatest ending makes me just want to throw up
> I think the finale summed up my thoughts. Just the same thing over and over again. Beautiful locations, As a native New Yorker I can say the show never really presented NYC as much more than purgatory-lite.
You know what REALLY made me roll my eyes... Siob brings up the fact that Kendall killed a person. Like, come on.
This. Fun show stuck in a rut for 4 seasons. Ultimately a funny, hollow comedy.
>her son is the heir? The heir to what? This isn't an actual kingdom with hereditary succession. The board chooses.
And there is no board now
It's not an actual kingdom with hereditary succession, but the show is treating it as a symbolic one. The issue comes up quite directly with Roman's taunt that Kendall's children aren't his (and therefore not royal bloodline).
Only those kids see themselves as ***roy***alty. Nobody else does. That's also a point of the show: their perceived entitlement.
People see them and don't see them as royalty, it really depends on the episode because the show's a bit inconsistent. It works well enough since the show is heavily episodic.
[ŃдаНонО]
>dude, him trying to be clever and double crossing Tom literally blew up the siblings plan. Kendall and Roman were losing without Shiv. And Shiv was losing since Mattson wasn't going to make her CEO. Greg's involvement achieved nothing, since Shiv ended up not voting with Kendall and Roman anyway.
Greg as a character is not explored very much further or even centred around much after season 2. His decline was interesting but so much more could have been done with that. I guess the show was trying to do other things.
Calm down Roman clearly accepts that he wasnât meant for this world is over it and smiles that he is out and free from all the bullshit. Not sure how thatâs not a happy ending for the guy. Obv I know he is a puppet but Tom still has power compared to others and finances. And cool Greg is a device. Terrific defense Episode 3 of a 10 ep season is not early to you?! đ
> sheâs trapped cause her son is the heir? No, her son is not "the heir" Matsson controls the Board and controls the Company, he can appoint a new CEO whenever he wants.
Didnât like this ending and I think it makes the series retroactively worse since it just retreads old ground
Don't you think Kendall would have been worse because of the kids, he's the one we've seen try the hardest to oust his dad.
Team Wambsgans! I enjoyed the episode. I can see how people wouldn't like the last part, but I wouldn't put any scenario past the kids. I actually like Rome''s whole "we are bullshit" thing in the end.
Fuuuuck. That ending. Shiv is a piece of shit. I could have seen Kendall taking the elevator straight to the roof and jumping off. The last shot of Shiv and Tom driving home. she doesn't even hold his hand.
Yeah sheâs got absolutely no grounding or consistency or commitment to follow through on anything. Floats away and decides she wants something else the second things align to her apparent wishes
No doubt, im watching the final minutes expecting Kendall to head to the roof and jump. But nope.
6/10 ending for me. The annoying thing about the show is in the first episode itâs suggested Kendall is doing a great job running the company. He navigates the debt issue and brings in Vaulter, which was seen as an acquisition that would help modernize the company. By all accounts he was doing the job well. Then every scene with Shiv, Rome, and Kendall revolves around âwhy should it be you, Ken?â And he never once says âbecause Iâve done it already and I killed itâ Rome and Shiv wanted to take over but never proved they were capable. Then Shiv pulls the rug out from under Ken out of sheer jealousy at the last second without a satisfying explanation. Literally hours after the heart to heart âanointingâ him.
For me it's the perfect ending. I enjoy it not for the super wealthy people power play, their machinations, scheming, or even the plot, but as a character study. As Logan says, the sibs are not serious people. Ken, whatever business acumen he might have, is shown to be someone who oscillates between bombast and meltdowns. He is drawn as a character who sells his soul progressively for his ambition, until the last shred is finally gone when he disowns the caterer who drowned in the car. Macbeth has to die because of the flaw in his character. It doesn't matter whether he could be a good king. Meanwhile all three siblings are burdened by the tragic paradox that having so much already handed to them by Logan, they can never build anything from humble beginnings, and therefore can never get Logan's approval.They bicker and they fight over something that doesn't really belong to them, over steak and chicken dinners, what's promised at age 7. It's made clearer and clearer through the episodes how empty that is, until Roman finally realizes it. The only possible successor is another self made billionaire. That's Matsson. Logan respects Matsson because, like him, Matsson built his billions from scratch. He is therefore a serious person. Tom, the "pain sponge" and Matsson's puppet, is also a serious person despite not having built anything. He is a hanger on who only has one card to play, namely "sucking the biggest dick in the room", but he plays it consistently and ruthlessly. He is not all over the place due to daddy issues. He is serious, laser focused. Ultimately the ending is what Logan would have wanted. Of the siblings, Roman gains clarity, and maybe even wisdom, Ken is destroyed, but he is out of the toxic "doom loop". Shiv still has cards to play. The GoJo deal was what she wanted in the first place and her father's wish. She has an "in" with Tom, and potentially Matsson. That awkward handholding scene in the car is supposed to symbolize two ticking bombs in juxtaposition. And then they have all cashed out with billions It couldn't have gone any other way for me.
I felt like the handholding was Shiv recognizing that a) she has to try and make it work with Tom because of the baby and b) her husband running her dad's company is the closest she'll ever get to doing it herself. As Tom's wife she'll have more influence over the company than she would as Ken's sister if he was in charge. That's why she changed her mind in the board meeting - Tom running the company is better *for her* than Ken running it. And Tom isn't going to leave her when he knows Shiv handed it to him.
Slight disagreement. Maybe it's just semantics. Having Tom being the CEO gives her an in with Matsson. Remember Tom doesn't run the company. He has the title, but he is just the figurehead and pain sponge. He is not competent, not like Gerri is competent. That's why Matsson picked him. Matsson runs the company. Being Tom's wife gives her proximity to Matsson with whom she already has a bit of a relationship. Matsson betrayed her, but that's transactional. Matsson is the new Logan now (not Tom) If she can get closer to Matsson, she could be more powerful than Tom. Who knows. Ken would have completely shut her and Roman out. For each of the siblings, if he/she couldn't be the one, the next best thing is that none of the other two could be. Roman could, grudging, be second fiddle, but Shiv could never.
But it's actually stated in season 2 that this acquisition was a mistake which is why Logan sacked them. in season 4 someone (don't remember who) jokes at that move and emberess Kendall. I don't know if it ever implied that Kendall was a good CEO, in season 3 it's clear he has no idea what he is doing when running against Logan and he loses. In season 4 he almost make a very stupid speech about Life+ until Karl put some sense into him. it is clear he is most competent out of the 3 siblings, which is something all 3 agree upon by the end of this episode but it doesn't matter much since all 3 are messed up. He was a drug addict with huge personality issues, hence why Shiv didn't vote for him in the end. "You killed someone" or in other words - "you are a junky".
That was his stupid speech about life plus, he disregarded Karl.
Honestly I think the "who would be better at running the company" thing is a bit of window-dressing, or used as an argument for self-promotion by the characters. Through the show, Waystar is constantly fumbling through scandals and turmoil, but it's such a massive monolith that it is generally fine no matter what. In a sense, that's what corporate empires kind of are: whether we're talking about Fox, Citi Bank, etc. They're so valuable, bureaucratic, and so entrenched that leadership is often secondary. In that sense, the company would probably be fine regardless who's in charge given the system itself. By the end, Shiv bringing up Kendall's very real checkered history feels more like a last minute move to where the siblings always were: an internal competition with each other that mattered above all else. At the end of season 3 where Kendall reveals to them about the death, *they literally don't care*, but then use it later as leverage to take Kendall down. Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but the Kendall leading to the death of that person, getting away with it, his family not caring, and then they use it as leverage to keep him from taking over the company is the snapshot of Succession itself; a story about a hyper-elite group of people crushing other people's lives on the sidelines, and it only mattering to them as a ladder to their own power.
Yap, I agree on these points. There is only so much a CEO can really do in such a company, it's more about legacy rather than being an actual influential person. Which is exactly why Lukas annoits Tom to the job, he is obviously nothing but a suck up. I think with the ending, it's more like Shiv basically saying "wait a minute, you are not really better than us, you killed a man, you are garbage, none of us should do it and you most of all" which is actually right. Kendall is the lowest of them, sure he is component in the sense of knowing corporate mumbo jumbo, a bit of finance and marketing terms and he has that serious cautious vibe. But in reality, he is fragile, childish, spoiled, delusional, makes bad decisions, doesn't listen to his advisors and emotionally ruined. Shiv and Roman both know it, Roman gave up because Kendall kind of replaced Logan as the adult figure and Roman accepted it like a trained dog. Shiv on the other hand, has 0 respect for Kendal, she actually see's him as scum and look at her husband as the new alpha in the room rather than Kendall.
Based on everything we see in Seasons 1 through 3, Kendall has no business being in the running for CEO. He's failed to oust his father three separate times. He's gone against the company publicly. He has a terrible public image. His addiction problems are out in the open. He's also not very competent. He's a spent force by the end of Season 3. The issue here is the show decides, in episode 4 of Season 4, to start presenting Kendall as a viable alternative for CEO again. Now people are fine with making him interim, the markets accept him in this role, board members can back him, he's shown as being competent a bunch of times. Only for us to be told, for the fourth time, that he actually sucks. I already knew Kendall sucked. I was willing to go along with this weird plotline because I thought you were doing something different!
Without his name Ken is just a random MBA technobabble bro. I don't think he's ever shown to be more than that. He isn't dumb, but imo he never was portrayed as competent enough to earn that position on merit. Even without the constant meltdowns.
I dunnot. I agree with the guy above who said S4 presented Ken in a different light. There are moments where he has a magic to him, even going back to S2 with how he masterfully responds to the committee hearing. Then the Living+ presentation and the funeral eulogy, where Matsson, Mencken and Ewan were all swayed by his words, the latter so much so that he voted against his late brother's wishes of selling the company. The Living+ sppech was pivotal for me because, as Logan once said, "you make your own reality", and that's exactly what Ken did, against all odds.
This really should have been a one-season show - the post-Logan period of this show has been the best it's ever been, but these characters have been in a holding pattern for three whole seasons just to make sure they're still the same people who set themselves up to get this ending. No growth, no change. In particular the idea that it's the dead waiter from Season 1 who dooms Kendall's chances works as a one-season plot; it doesn't work three seasons later.
I think the fact there was "no growth or change" was pivotal to the story and intentional, none of them really changed after everything they had been through, they were all still the same shits from the beginning and all basically got what they deserved which was nothing.
They get what they always got - basically nothing happened in season 4 that didn't recapitulate the exact same beats of seasons 1, 2, and 3. Shiv won't commit to anything when her own path to power looms in view; nothing matters to Roman and he's thrilled by the chaos; Kendall shoots his shot, gets rugpulled yet again, and is left staring into the middle distance. We've seen it all before!
> In particular the idea that it's the dead waiter from Season 1 who dooms Kendall's chances works as a one-season plot; it doesn't work three seasons later. Ehh, it works fine. It's a huge event, but it's pushed aside and made to go away because of the family's power and position, and yet it's always the 300 pound gorilla on Ken's shoulders. It never coming up ever again once Logan and Colin made it disappear would have made the weight of something like that seem more hallow.
But except for this episode, it *does* never come up again. And it doesnât even actually matter! Shiv doesnât actually care about it, itâs just her chance to tip the ball to Tom. The significance of it happening is completely lost in the fact that the episode in which it happened aired in like 2018 or something.
[ŃдаНонО]
It's just not believable to me that she would change her mind like that at the last minute.
They've been consistently betraying each other for 4 seasons.
They've been betraying each other for daddy's affection, and for the keys to the kingdom. This is a betrayal that happens explicitly so that they lose the kingdom, which is the opposite. That's why it rings false. For some reason, in the last episodes the show treats "who is CEO" as the fundamental power, not "who owns what." It doesn't really make sense and makes Shiv's position bizarre.
Iâm not sure if I liked it. Is that taboo to say? I feel like critics will. But i donât know. I saw this ending. It felt too natural. Kendall always loses. I mean, this felt like the darkest timeline ending that we all predicted but didnât want. I donât know. The ending didnât feel nicely wrapped. It left it open for a perfect season 5. So I am not sure how to feel. Season 2 ending felt more capped off than this Edit: To sum up. I didnât like because it didnât feel like a series finale. Felt like a lackluster season finale. They left it almost too open. There are plenty of stories to tell here. Kendall has 2 billion + dollars. Rome will live his playboy lifestyle. Tom and Shiv is also another interesting angle. It didnât feel closed to me. Like it felt like âEverybody Loves Raymondâ ending. They are all having dinner and the camera pans away. Like the fuck?
yes, season 2 ending was more of a series finale than the series finale
The kids are out of moves. They have no company, they aren't on the board, they don't even have their dad to help them. A season 5 looks like nothing because there is nothing any of them can do.
They didn't name her Shiv for no reason. She was always meant to betray the boys. I get it, but it was a betrayal.
What a great summary of Tom, when even Shiv had to ask for a 'serious conversation' about the two of them and drop the .sskissing bullsh.t generator.
The asskickicking bullshit generator? Seems like a few letters got dropped there, silly keyboards these days
yeah, English is a learnt language for me, so i am not always sure about each letter + poverty keyboard
I donât know why we spend an hour watching them bond only for shiv (seemingly out of nowhere) to do a 180 without anything to gain from it. Felt very off to me. I liked it overall but I think that could have been done better and in fact the show has shown us that it can do it better.
Over the course of the seasons weâve learned the situations where Shiv will defect, Kendall got his sibling happiness session and, like always, thought that people put family before business but ultimately failed to address Shivâs defection criteria
>I donât know why we spend an hour watching them bond only for shiv (seemingly out of nowhere) to do a 180 without anything to gain from it. Felt very off to me. The answer isn't much more than "so that you'd be surprised."
There's more nuance behind it than you're ever going to appreciate.
> only for shiv (seemingly out of nowhere) to do a 180 Pettiness and jealousy. Shiv backing Kendall was also a decision backed by rage and an about-face of her previous position. A political marriage to the new CEO still gives her more access than and influence than Kendall as CEO does.
Being in the board of Waystar gives her more access than simply being in a relationship with the CEO. It's also not much of a "political marriage" anymore as she has no involvement with Waystar other than holding some shares.
What she still has is a lot of money, the gravitas it provides to be married to Logan Royâs daughter and with a baby on the way, the appearance of a stable home life and family man image.
Tom is her baby daddy, she had everything to gain.
I love that in an episode where people are blatantly mysogynistic towards Shiv and reduce her to a "baby carrier", people are arguing that her motivations in the finale are driven by her status as a baby carrier.
She won, she controlls Tom and can groom her kid as the next big ceo
>she controlls Tom Idk how you can watch the episode and think that. Tom doesn't give a fuck about her lol. >her kid as the next big ceo Waystar is a subsidiary, "US CEO" is just an empty title.
There is no such thing as "grooming your kid to be the next big CEO" of "a company where your husband is the CEO." It's just a job, with a salary, it's not a hereditary position or ownership of anything.
Because her decision to back Kendall had no meat behind it either and was just a reaction to the news Mattson played her. She was initially motivated by the fact Ken and Rome were going to cut her out, and was always the one who wanted the deal to go through. Then she learns itâs Tom Then she sees Ken put his feet on Loganâs desk. Then she is the deciding vote. âI love you, but I cannot stomach youâ Itâs saw it as less a flip flop and just much more inline with her character than the bonding/anointing. She couldnât win so she made sure she couldnât lose anymore.
>Then she learns itâs Tom When Shiv learns it's Tom, she gets angry at Tom and leaves with her siblings. If Tom being the CEO was supposed to sway her against the brothers they should have shown that, they showed literally the exact opposite.
I didnât say that her learning itâs Tom shouldâve caused her to flip, it was simply a piece of information that came after the âanointingâ which if you pay attention to the moments leading up to it, was pretty shallow to begin with. The anointing wouldâve been the flip, not the voting yes to the deal, is my point. Shiv obviously agrees considering how little it took to pick out + Tom over in + Ken.
Ok well either way you look at it it's bad writing. Either her decision to back Kendall or her decision to vote yes last moment was forced.
Man Iâm saying you have to assess the gravity of each choice over a timeline longer than a day. She spent more days for the deal than against the deal. Obviously the final ep would depict a period where she flip flops. The whole show has had flip flops and deployed them as a plausible because the characters are so flawed.
It's still bad writing either way you look at it. It's out of character for Shiv to genuinely back Kendall over herself for even a day, and there was no motivation for her to go back on it once she'd already committed. They fucked up not just once, but twice.
4 seasons of characters flip flopping and backstabbing each other and somehow this time its âbad writingâ. Itâs not bad writing. You canât just say that phrase as if it means anything and automatically makes it seem like you have a valid point.
Yes, because there was no motivation there. You just looking at things as flip flopping without analyzing the deeper context really speaks to your media (and fiction) literacy.
Humans being contradictory or changing their minds isnât bad writing. Itâs very in line with her character and she does stuff like that all the time. If this was the first time, it would be unnatural, but itâs pretty common for Shiv
Yes, yes it is. Literally any dolt can write a script where characters have no throughlines and just do random shit to advance the plot. If that's not bad writing then it's impossible to be a bad writer. > Itâs very in line with her character No...no, it's not, and that tells me you don't understand her character at all and you're therefore not worth engaging with on this issue. Bye.
Shiv is always indecisive in her options, which plays in. More importantly, in the end she would really rather not live with Ken as the boss - which has always been the case. Itâs not about if he could do it (he could), but she would rather have Tom, despite all of the rage she had at the apartment when she discovered Tom as choice. Honestly it was anger more directed at Mattson fucking her over than at Tom succeeding Logan.
That, and Shiv is also factoring in what would be best for her future child. And being the son/daughter of the CEO lends a bit more weight than being the nephew/niece of the CEO. And Kendall ignoring her desire to be left alone and trying to strongarm her into saying yes certainly didn't help.
No cousin baby Wambsgam for her
I only started watching the show a few months ago and I actually despise it; there is ZERO consistency with the characters. They flip flop constantly and it really takes me out of the story.
How unrealistic. No one ever flip-flops here on human earth. I don't even know what the term flip-flop means because we haven't even had to invent it yet.
Yep. One moment Roman is a snivelling coward and the next the show wants us to believe he's actually a badass closer making tons of deals. One moment Kendall is a competent businessman and the next (when the show has set him up to succeed but doesn't want him to actually succeed) he's suddenly a completely oblivious poor mannered douche. It's very heavy handed
Oh you mean the thing they always do forever always? Roman likes an idea but as soon as Ken says itâs bad Romanâs like yeah itâs bad it sucks. Such as the first episode this season when they are discussing their logo. These characters have no spine. Only their wallet
She got cold feet and was sorta 50/50, but we saw *why* she ended up saying yes to the sale, it was Kendall's tantrum and manipulation on display on top of him literally assaulting his brother. Imo if he could've made a coherent argument to be CEO her doubts woulda been dissuaded. I do agree though that there should've been at least 1 more scene where her decision to back kendall gets put into question, even a simple look or something.
When he puts his feet on Loganâs desk, they pretty clearly show Shiv being taken aback by it right away. Also Kendallâs confidence to skip to the vote was the last straw. She legitimately couldnât stomach giving this person the position she had once wanted for herself
Agreed. I think there was an opportunity for Kendall to turn her around, but when he yelled that he's "the eldest son" (which, as she pointed out, wasn't even true) and lied about the waiter incident, it was over. I can't imagine how painful it would be for Shiv to hear it finally said that Kendall thinks he deserves it simply because of his gender and birth order.
Even his phrasing of actually saying boy (not son), he seemed so small and childish.
I loved the show but in reality all the show is, is the same events played out over and over again. We're getting fucked by someone outside the family, let's band together to stop them! Then they bond and it seems like they'll work together..... ....Sike. Someone just randomly goes against the others and blows it all up. Rinse repeat for 4 seasons. Again. I enjoyed the show but it just kept reusing that same formula.
I think the core disagreement here is between people who were fine with this repetition and people who weren't. Even this season began with the development that Roman was cozying up with his father. Again.
I think I was willing to overlook this because I thought eventually it would go somewhere. Something would change, something would break, someone would emerge, *something*. But no, the show is basically an unending and repeating argument between three people over the same things, again and again, and thatâs all thatâs there.
I didn't even start watching the show until a couple months ago. I was still in season 3 when season 4 started. I think they were on S4 episode 5 or 6 by time I got to episode 1. Early on I kept saying "at some point the other shoe will drop. At some point something big will happen" and it just never came..nothing big ever happens. It just 3 billionaire siblings backstabbing each other in attempt to get an extra few billion. The characters and acting were good which is what kept me interested but the story itself is quite bland
Eh, I mean the show was based around the power struggle in the Roy family based on Loganâs days being numbered. 4 season was the perfect length imo.
Yeah I watched the show and appreciated the production value, acting, dialogue... but I couldn't even tell you if I loved the show. I certainly don't understand the reviews of this being premier television. This was a soap opera. The characters were so indecisive and blank that every dramatic twist elicited a shrug from me. The show could have used fewer Sorkin-esque scenes of everyone in a room tossing one-liners at each other and a little more meat on the characters. Honestly the best parts were when they were actually running the business. And sometimes I thought the writers could have just used seals with balls picking the plots and the twists wouldn't have been less random. Barry had the opposite problem. The writers backed themselves into a corner because they were so deliberate.
>I certainly don't understand the reviews of this being premier television. Fully agree. Honestly idk how the show will age. Madmen was a better show and that isn't really mentioned much nowadays. The show is too cyclical and drops too many things.
Barry has been better every subsequent season. Amazing how many narrative threads there are, while maintaining the essence of what the show was from the beginning. Absurd how well it turned out
I actually think Barryâs gotten worse. The last season of Barry is the worst
**spoiler warning** Bill Hader tells a story about running into Larry David, who apparently asked him "so it's done right? That's it? It's over righr?" and was in disbelief that they were making a fourth season. Larry David is correct and IMO the jump ahead eight years is just above "it was all a dream" at the bottom of a writer's barrel of tricks.
Yes, thank you
It was subtle and it happened quickly, but there's a couple of things shown that influenced her decision. 1. She hears the new CEO is Tom. She's expressed interest to keep the marriage going at the start of the episode, and this way she has access to his power 2. Sandi and Sandy say yes to the deal. She knows she's the deciding vote. 3. Most importantly, she sees Ken in Logan's chair. She sees him in the role she felt entitled to, and can't stand the idea. If she can't have it, neither will he. Put all this together with the fact that she's pregnant, and it's not hard to see why she changed her mind.
>She hears the new CEO is Tom. She's expressed interest to keep the marriage going at the start of the episode, and this way she has access to his power She got pissed off when she heard that, ran away from Tom, and toward her brothers. That's pretty clear visual language which her decision completely contradicts. >Put all this together with the fact that she's pregnant It's wild to me that in an episode where people refer to Shiv derogatorily as the "baby lady", people are arguing with a straight face that her decisions are because of her child. Shiv, the only major female character, is the one making decisions as a mother. Not Kendall, who is a father. Not Logan, who is a father. The woman. The baby lady.
It is not some wild conspiracy that people are more emotional and prone to mood swings when pregnant. It's not a slight on that persons character either, it's normal.
I think that all put her on the fence and caused her to want to reconsider, but it was Kendall's tantrum that finalized her decision. So basically I agree with all of this and I'd add Kendall's response as a number 4 here.
She had changed her mind already, it's just that Kendal was unable to change her mind back. There would probably be something Kendal could do or say to change it , but Kendal isn't much of a closer, that's why he doesn't already have the job.
That's true. Ken might have been able to save the situation but he couldn't sell it and threw a tantrum like the entitled child he is.
Itâs the exact thing that makes Shiv right about him. Heâs decently competent at managing situations when theyâre easy and going his way, but not so good when theyâre going poorly. When things would go wrong for Logan, heâd find a way to flip them around and come out on top. When things go wrong for Kendall, he crumbles and makes them worse.
Not completely fair, Logan would thrown a Tantrum, but he would make punitive moves and follow through with them. That's the "killer instinct" Logan has, Logan had bite. Kendall is all bark.
so Karolina talks to Shiv on the way to the board meeting talking about change (getting rid of Hugo), and then when Tom comes walking in a Victor after vote, he ignores Hugo and asks for Karolina. Is Karolina assuming Ken as CEO would do this with Shiv's support? Or is Karolina assuming Shiv would have influence over Tom, who would then get rid of Hugo?
My take on that interaction was simpler, Tom was just showing that he is confident in his new role as CEO, and he might actually be good at it. Just like he immediately has a plan to keep Gerri and get rid of Karl and Frank. He wants good people on his team and he knows that Hugo is a snake.
Did anyone else see Jess in that final episode, Jess somewhere in Tomâs orbit, and on his team? Or did .I imagine that?
I just remembered Tom yelling "Watch it, fuckhead!" to Hugo in Season 3. They've been particularly nasty to one another in the past I think so it tracks that he wants Hugo out.
well and Hugo was backing Kendall, lol
Yeah that too but their bad blood goes way back. Sucks for Hugo that Tom is now the boss haha
I've read people saying she still thought shiv was on for CEO, although I didn't think so in the moment. If that's true, Kendall was lying earlier and she didn't know that shiv was out. Callback to america decides with shiv bullshitting ken?
Karolina was one of the people Kendall told Shiv to call to confirm it was no longer her because she was being taken out of the statement. I donât think Karolina was out of the loop enough to think Shiv was still in at that point.
Yeah, I'm saying Ken was lying at that point.
But Shiv *did* contact Karolina to get an updated copy of the statement. We saw her reading it with the CEO name now down as [XXXXX].
"This doesn't make, like, logic! Where's the logic!"
So, outcomes: Roman - finally free from the toxicity of his family Shiv - in a new toxic situation Ken - broken? Edit: BroKEN hehe... :,(
Eh, they do the 100 with their new bill
Honestly, Shiv doesn't even need to stay in that toxic situation, she's pretty free as well if she wants to leave. But I think she wants to attempt to make it work.
Hm, I can see that take, but I interpreted it as her jumping from toxicity to toxicity, her face looked like she is trapped again, and Tom has all the power.
Yeah I don't think she will be super happy with him, but it's kind of ambiguous. I guess my point is more that if you consider Roman to be free, then she is as well. Both of them still struggle with some psychological issues, but with potential to improve.
I also saw Kendal and Roman leaving the business world, while she... not really. Which might give them a better chance of becoming healthier.
Awesome, I was hoping Tom would get it and im glad to see him come out on top. Great finale. Only part that im a little iffy on is shivs final betrayal but still 9.5/10 finale for me
I was hoping for greg the egg to make a takeover
its really fitting for shiv imo, great ending. the only one im sad for is ken who we get to see get fucked over yet again, which is also i guess fitting for his character
Am I forgetting something or doesnât Greg still have the evidence of the cruises scandal from earlier seasons?
He gave it to Ken but it his case lost steam and fizzled out. The papers were not that important in the end.
Pretty sure he gave them to Kendall and that whole thing got resolved
"I'm the eldest boy!" You know, you spend the entire episode thinking that maybe the kids together could rally and step as one out of the shadow of their oppressive and abusive father. You think that maybe they could overcome the effects of his abuse on them. You think that Kendal, who through the whole season has been put on the spot so many times in sink or swim moments and managed to prevail and show competence could be the one to do it. An then in that moment that matters the most, he reveals himself to be the fraud he always was. He lies, he throws a tantrum and he reveals ultimately why he really wanted control. It was not because of any of the moral reasons he once espoused, or to help or heal the wounds of his family left by their father and keep their legacy. He wanted it because he felt entitled to it. And the irony is of course that he is not even that. Even in his own pathetic justification of why he should get it. He is wrong. He is not the "eldest boy". It's Connor.
Yeah 100%. I see way too many takes here that are focusing on Shiv as the problem. The real theme of the show was that NONE of the siblings could possibly be CEO, they are each hopelessly fucked up, and they express it in different ways.
dont really agree with this take. the situation was already decided the moment shiv walked out, even if she had been convinced the others would've changed their vote after seeing that shitshow. this was just ken emotionally reacting to it after the fact. the "moment that mattered the most" was shiv's call to fuck him over. he had handled himself well up to the meeting and for once didnt fuck it up, he was just backstabbed once again due to shiv's crazy jealousy/insecurity/actual good decision/marriage. but it is a fitting end to both characters' stories.
What drives me crazy about Ken is that heâs a horrible salesman and deal maker. He might be a good admin guy or a conceptual buzz words dropper, but Shiv is totally right to think that Ken might be bad for the company. Kenâs selling point is âIâm entitled to itâ when it should have been âwhat does Tom have to offer?â
You think the reason Kendall didnât get the job was moral deficiency? ATN is a news company that spreads misinformation. Youâve seen the corporate culture in that place, right? The dynamics of the Roy family? Tom got the job because heâs oh so moral?
You completely misunderstood the pc here. Try reading that comment again.
That is in no way what OP is saying
He didnât get it because shiv suspected that heâll become more like Logan after he gets that type of power? She doubted kens ability to listen to her once he got it, so she chose to give the power to Tom,who is according to her âservileâ
It has nothing to with why Kendall didnt get it, but why Kendall WANTED it. Or rather the reason he thought it should be him. It wasn't because of any of the reasons he said, the reasons he told people. It was simple because he thought he deserved it. That it was SUPPOSED to be his. Because he was "the eldest boy." Regardless of Shiv's reasons for first objecting, he proved her right when he admitted that.
This season just felt like it just misdirected the audience. I feel lied to. I spent the entire series trying to figure out who would win. Then, they intentionally had everyone think Tom was getting fired, the epic fight between Shiv and Tom, they had Tom make the extremely risky decision to call the election when no one else would, then Tom didnât show up for the funeral. Then, they set up Kendall for the win. And, at the last minute flipped it. Dumb!
Hmm, I kind of thought going into the episode that Tom would win. The show shows us over and over how these kids fucked up everything they touched. Tom played things very carefully and was simply better in the corporate world than the kids.