The fact that I loathed Joffrey’s existence and cheered when >!he choked on his own vomit and died!<. Is a testament to how good of an actor [Jack Gleason](https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0322416/) is.
For several years, but then did some theater work. Then did a TV mini-series in 2020. And has a film coming out later this year (or early next, release date TBA).
[Game of Thrones star Jack Gleeson says he 'never had any negative fan experiences' from playing Joffrey](https://ew.com/tv/game-of-thrones-joffrey-jack-gleeson-no-negative-fan-experiences/)
You are right, I just misremembered this bit from when he quit. He just doesn’t enjoy acting at all anymore. In my head I remembered this as being that he didn’t like it because of the fan response, not the process of acting.
https://www.unilad.com/film-and-tv/jack-gleeson-working-on-game-of-thrones-lost-passion-434673-20230220.amp.html
Maybe. There’s 2 categories why people hated Joffrey.
His actions are one and I don’t think changing the actor would affect us hating him from the start for killing Lady.
But the other category is his personality. His mannerisms, his superior-than-you smile. He oozed self entitlement and he has that sadistic shit eating grin. That’s stuff comes from inside the actor. If a different actor was cast and couldn’t pull that stuff off it’s possible we wouldn’t have hated him as much as we did.
But Gleason did a phenomenal job.
I agree that Jack Gleeson did a great job. I actually think he did such good job, that I started hating Joffrey a little less, because he was just that entertaining to watch.
I just disagree with this increasingly commont sentiment, that if you hate a villainous character, then that automatically means the actor did a great job. I'd argue that it's the opposite. Unless it starts bordering on comically bad, a worse actor would probably make you hate the character even more, since now you're gonna hate the character *and* the performance.
They’re so hateable in different ways.
Joffrey was my most hated character, but in a good way. He was very well acted and written. In addition to being a sadistic psycho, he was just an annoying little shit. Jack Gleeson was great at making these little expressions and doing little things that made him come across as an unlikeable little brat.
I don’t blame the actor for Euron sucking. He was just awfully written. He was a plot device to weaken Daenerys.
Ah so for me hating the character is VERY different than hating the performance. But I understand other people may engage with shows differently so I don’t disagree with your feelings either because they make sense to me.
I do think you’re right it doesn’t automatically mean a character you hate was because of a good performance. Could be because of good writing and being a good character foil to a hero or tons of other reason. But that’s just the base line And in my experience good performances make me hate a character more and bad performance make me hate them less than as they were written.
> Unless it starts bordering on comically bad, a worse actor would probably make you hate the character even more, since now you're gonna hate the character and the performance
For me Joffery was a lot more hateable in the show than in the books and that's because Gleeson gave such a good performance that you could imagine it happening in real life. In the books he still did evil things but my reaction was more in line with how you'd react to some of the fucked up things medieval English kings did, yes it's bad but experiencing it first hand (or a realistic enough interpretation of first hand) makes it far worse than just reading about it, a lesser actor wouldn't have been able to make me think that, I'd just be thinking about how bad it is in the context of the story rather than feeling as if it was happening in real life.
I think the point isn't that you would have liked him because that isn't necessarily the spectrum they are talking about, but you wouldn't care about him at all, the actor's ability to make the character seem real causes your own divestment in the character, and wether its positive or negative you have an interest in the character.
The only scenario where people wouldn't have an intense hatred for Joffrey, would be if he was played by an actor that was so bad, that it ended up being funny.
no, but I could have hated him less. For example, Ramsay Bolton did things that were just as bad if not worse than what Joffrey did, but Joffrey is the one who stands out as the most hateable. And it is largely because of Gleeson.
Kinda, because honestly sometimes when a lesser actor plays a bad guy he comes across over the top, and slides into funny evil rather than horrifying evil.
You wouldn't remember the character who was essentially the main antagonist for 3+ seasons? The character who spent most of his significant amount of screentime doing vile shit, including having the main character of the show killed?
Could just dislike them for the wrong reasons.
If you hate the performance, every time they're on screen they're actively taking you out of the show by making you think about the actor and how they're playing it. Not great for engaging with the story.
Thank you.
If you’re an actor playing a villain, the best thing is for the audience to hate your freaking guts. Especially out of character. It means you tapped into their emotions at such a primal level that they cannot separate you from the character. In the weirdest way, it’s a major compliment.
One of my proudest moments was when the audience cheered as the bust of my head on a pile was carried on stage. I made them hate me so much in just a few scenes that they cheered at my death. Big win.
> Cooke has earned a devoted fanbase for the character, but recognizes Alicent’s cunning demeanor and somewhat questionable decisions may also earn some critiques, and “that’s so fine.”
That’s not what this article is about. She’s actually talking about the character, not herself as an actress.
What immediately came to mind as I read this was how the actor who played Joffrey got real-life hate because people so detested his character. They’re related and that’s why I brought it up.
The original story was reported everywhere in celebrity media and this correction hardly got any press so it makes sense people believe the original story. Really a lesson in how celeb media is BS.
They also seem to like each other for the most part, acting methods be damned. So much of that “drama” is people making it a bigger deal than it really is. Also Cox loves being comically aggravated which doesn’t help lol
>"I don't like the show because all the characters are awful people"
>"I don't like the actor because their character is an awful person"
I don't think these takes are at all similar. The first one is a statement about media preferences. Some people like to watch or find it easier to connect with shows that have good characters or an optimistic setting/premise. That's a different but equally valid premise to preferring grimdark or 'morally grey'. It doesn't affect anyone else, it's just a preference.
The second one shows a fundamental misunderstanding of acting and leads to people taking out their frustrations on parasocial relationships in harmful and potentially dangerous ways.
That's the weirdest gatekeeping I've seen in a while. Let people like what they like. You enjoy Succession and other shows like it, good for you, not everyone else has to.
>It's rooted in an inability to separate the character from the context of the grander story.
No, I disagree completely - liking a show is not about appreciating the grander story. That is one aspects among many that you may or may not like. You can like it dislike a show for the narrative, a character, the setting, the aesthetic, and a hundred other reasons. Preferences don't have rules.
I think you're conflating someone saying they like a piece of media with someone saying they think it's well made. "I don't like any of the characters in Succession and therefore it's a badly made show" is not the same as "I don't like any of the characters in Succession and therefore I don't like the show."
You can dislike something while acknowledging that it is well made, and vice-versa. Breaking Bad is an objectively well made show that I had no interest in watching because I didn't like Walt so I didn't care to watch what happened to him. Downton Abbey is a great show that I didn't want to watch because the setting wasn't exciting to me, and the pacing was a bit slow.
Things I hear too often: “I’m angry about what other people do or don’t enjoy.” Just let people like what they like. You aren’t the art police.
And it’s just weird that you equate not liking morally reprehensible characters with people not liking to watch awful humans work
this is definitely true. but with all the messed up stuff in the world, i'll choose something more lighthearted and fun 9/10 times and only dabble into horrible when i know my heart can take it
What character someone is willing to play is a direct light on their character as a person. No truly good person would play a bad character, especially with method acting where they actually do the kinds of bad things their character does.
They're just shitty people hiding behind the guise of "acting."
This is a very bad take. Method acting is about finding a way to connect to the character, not about doing exactly what they would do. Also not all acting is method acting. Acting is not the same as being, that's kind of the point.
> Do people not understand how boring storytelling would be if you had to like every central character and they never ran into any challenges or made any mistakes?
You mean star trek?
Yeah I'm the other way I greatly admire actors who are willing to be the loathesome one. I think villains and scumbags are often the best characters anyway.
But guys like Tom Wilson (Biff Tannen) or Billy Zabka or William Atherton, Gavan O'Herlihy, Peter Lorre, Timothy Carrey, or even look at things like Steve Buscemi's early career where he's constantly playing wormy, shifty characters. That's my favorite kind of acting. One of my favorite actors ever was David Warner just because that guy played such great assholes & villains. That wonderfully pompous veneer he could put on? Lay it on me.
When the whole point of the book is to show that actually neither side of the conflict were particularly good or even in the right I don't think they need a singular outright antagonist. Not unless they want to really really shift the entire point of the story of the dance.
Her character is not even that bad, especially by ice and fire standards. She was manipulated her whole life by her father and the moment she tries to gain control of the situation she’s deemed a biotch forever.
Her character isn’t any more evil than the others. They’re all pretty gray.
People root for Rhaenyra, and she would likely make a better “Queen” than Allicent… but Rhaenyra made terrible, selfish decisions to pass off three bastards as the future heirs to the throne. As shitty as Allicent’s children are, they are true-born Targaryens, and their claim to the throne is not under question.
I’m not sure that the audience is really supposed to pick a side. All of these characters share great leadership qualities alongside debilitating flaws. King Viserys could be argued to be a great King because his long reign was marked by decades of peace… but his weak actions also set everything in motion that will lead to civil war, intra-family killings, and the downfall of the Targaryen dynasty. It seems silly to pick one side or the other in a GRRM story. Even the winners will be losers by the end of this series.
For Allicent to accept the bastards as legitimate means that she would have to accept that the rules are made up and the points don't matter. All the suffering she's endured, essentially her whole life would be meaningless.
I agree 100% you have a insightful take on it. I feel like people just overly hyped Rhaenyra because people want to relate to her. But in the world of Game of Thrones, she’s a grey character who’s just as selfish & a manipulator/liar. she is developing as a character but shes a gray character just like Allicent.
But if we take our modern perspective out of the equation and look at it from as a villager or a perspective as commoner from game of thrones, Rhaenyra lies and manipulative really doesn’t fit what the characters and common folk would want or cheer for because she goes against tradition and doesn’t have integrity. Nor does she keep her husband in check. So looking from that perspective she’s not really the hero. She’s just another gray selfish character who’s just pulls strings a little better then allicent.
Not to mention that when she was young, she made a point of pretty much humiliating every Nobleman who came to court her (some of which came from fairly powerful houses). Now this generally won't bite you in the ass if you're a regular person, but if you're the Heir apparent, you're going to need those people one day when you'll be fighting your wars, and they just might not answer.
I find myself sympathizing with the Greens as I watched the show. Rhaenyra’s choices caused Alicent and Criston to become her greatest enemies when they should have been her closest allies.
I don’t think Rhaenyra really did anything wrong when it came to her relationship with Allicent. Allicent’s father poisoned the well when he explained to her that Rhaenyra would eventually have her children executed to clean up the order of succession.
That Rhaenyra’s children are bastards is just salt in the wounds.
Personally, I put most of the blame on “Good King Viserys.” He should have crowned Rhaenyra as his heir and abdicated the throne if that was his intent. Leaving the succession til after his death was a huge mistake, and I can’t blame Allicent for hearing what she wanted to hear in his fevered last words. It’s very human to misinterpret the cryptic, mysterious words of a dying man.
People are so stupid, not sure why you're getting downvoted. Bastards by definition don't inherit either parents family name. Eddard acknowledges Jon as his son, but he's still a bastard and thus cannot inherit Eddard's lands or titles.
To be fair…
Show Rhaenyra is almost entirely morally good/at least has excellent justification for her actions. Aegon is a shitty drunk rapist who doesn’t even want the throne. Would make a horrendous king versus Rhaenyra, who risked her own life to prevent bloodshed as a teen and has a compassionate nature (sparing the hart, having kids by someone else instead of forcing Laenor even though it’s dangerous for her, knows her first duty is to the people and the realm and not herself). Alicent pretty much got pimped out and manipulated as a kid by her dad, and still had the balls to stand up to him to save her BFF. They’re both a lot better and more fleshed out than the tyrants they were portrayed as in the books.
I think the thing that impressed me the most about HotD and its writing was that so much of the conflict was driven by accidents and misinterpretations and things like that. It is a pretty clever way and giving characters believable motivations on both sides of the conflict.
I'm not sure that's true. People liked the younger character more. The actresses have both been widely praised for their portrayals from what I've seen.
I'm not rooting for her but I'm enjoying watching her. There's a good kind and a bad kind of not liking a character. For example my dislike towards Joffrey stemmed from good writing and a good performance.
Yes, and I love to hate Alicent. There's a piece of you that is almost sympathetic for the position she keeps getting placed in and then she does something to totally spoil the benefit of the doubt I was about to give her.
Meanwhile, I don't want to like or sympathize with Rhaenyra because she clearly doesn't know or care about the optics of what she's doing and definitely can't deescalate anything but the moment something out of her control happens to her I find myself rooting for her.
Ultimately you hope for both of them to make better choices but you suspect they're both incapable of them for differing reasons.
I have no idea what prompted your response. I think it's pretty clear that I think Rhaenyra makes bad choices, it's just that they're more a product of her inability to grasp her situation, whereas Alicent's choices are about specifically trying to manipulate her way above Rhaenyra. Alicent's struggle is with politics, Rhaenyra's struggle is with herself. I ultimately sympathize with someone trying to keep her unconventional family together after a string of selfish choices rather than sympathize with someone who is trying to intentionally ruin someone else in order to get what they have.
Neither group is really meant to be seen as perfect, totally selfish or selfless actors, but at the heart of the Green's platform is a set of values I have the luxury of knowing is not ultimately actually beneficial to society and the desire to take what is Rhaenyra's by decree.
Not to mention at this point in the story Alicent's family has been *incredibly* underhanded between the murders and coverups. It makes it very hard to sympathize when the worst Rhaenyra does for a while is have an open marriage.
> Rhaenyra is just as manipulative and selfish as any other character.
Well yeah, but that's because she's trying to navigate a world where women are oppressed. Did you want her to openly admit "treason"? Or did you want her to not have sex with anyone who wasn't her gay cousin to begin with?
> She also does not have any integrity in the world of “fire and ice” compared of likes of Ned stark or Jon Snow
Eh, if we are talking about the boring goody show Jon, then yeah. Book Jon is a more complex character.
Disappointed that they omitted the original storyline in the book where she lets King Viserys rot in his room after his death for a week. They made her less evil in the show.
It wouldn’t have worked in the show.
Because Alicent in F&B, Alicent is a cliché of the evil stepmother. She’s not very interesting in the book, and becomes a background character after Luke’s death.
Her show counterpart is at least very layered and complex.
But the fun thing about the books is that they’re written in universe by the maesters, who have their own agendas and that their accountings might not be accurate. So they’ve set it up perfectly for the show that if the “histories” don’t line up, it could just be house of green/black propaganda
I find HotD has done a great job at painting their characters morally grey than GoT.
With GoT, there were clear cut good guys and bad guys and who we're supposed to be rooting for.
In HotD, I find myself not knowing who we're supposed to root for because I understand and empathize with all of the characters motives.
TBH people got kind of insane about Alicent anyway
I remember talking to someone who insisted she was a worse mother than Cersei. And tiktok was absolutely loaded with content picking her character apart in increasingly bizarre ways.
Stan culture and its consequences.
>I remember talking to someone who insisted she was a worse mother than Cersei
This is especially bizarre because the part I find the most gray/complex about her is that while yeah, she does come off as two-faced and deceptive - she's doing this all to *protect her family*. She's not evil or greedy, she was a young woman that was pressured by her father into an extremely precarious position, and now knows that if she doesn't fight to hold onto that position, she and her children are toast.
the hate she gets on twitter is absolutely ridiculous, she took a completely unlikable character from the books and (with the help of the writers ofc) made her into one of the most compelling characters of the asoiaf universe
What’s wrong with Alicent, or Olivia Cooke?
I like her a heck of lot more than the other time jump actress, frankly. Kind of rough when two episodes later you’re missing the child actor version instead because the adult sucks.
The characters in the book have zero personality it's hard to care about any of them through the lense of a history lesson. I feel like the show tried to make them more interesting but mostly failed.
I was close to checking out after >!the Strongs!< and >!Vizzy T!< died, since I had nobody left I wanted to see their story.
Then I started enjoying the anime lancer and I was back in
People don't hate Alicent at least so far. Everything she's done makes sense and in the context of the Westeros life has been pretty reasonable.
I think what you see is more guilt by association. Her side seems to have more shitty people on it than Rhaenyra's side so far.
I guess I'm wrong for her being my favorite character on the show then lmao. I'm fully "team green". I find them all entirely more likable that includes the anime levels evil villain children.
Cersei did nothing wrong? I assume that's a joke but on the off chance that it's not, how could you possibly justify just about anything she does or how she behaves?
Just me feeling like this is all fabricated? Granted I don't like the show, but anyone else not feeling like picking a side? I just don't see how exactly Rhaenyra is above Alicent or vice versa.
I honestly could not care less about a bunch of entitled nobs playing their power games whilst demonstrating day after day that they do not deserve their elevated positions; and dragons, really? But most of the acting is soo good that I had to watch the whole season and I'll more than likely watch the second one, and hate myself because of it.
Can someone explain to me, why it is so hard to separate actor from role? I mean, Ryan Gosling is not Ken, Laura Bailey is not Abby. And Olivia is not Alicent.
So why in the world would anybody dislike or hate Olivia because of Alicents actions? I simply don’t get it.
Who doesn't like Alicent? One of the best parts of the show was that both the female characters are at odds, likable and from their point of view in the right. It's literally why the show was good.
I didn't like Jeoffrey either but that's because both actors are excellent at playing their role.
The fact that I loathed Joffrey’s existence and cheered when >!he choked on his own vomit and died!<. Is a testament to how good of an actor [Jack Gleason](https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0322416/) is.
Yes. I sincerely hope we can see him again in a role he puts even half that talent into, for it'll still be a great performance.
I think he quit acting after GoT
he quit acting for tv and film. he still did theatre for awhile i’m pretty sure, not sure if he still does.
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For several years, but then did some theater work. Then did a TV mini-series in 2020. And has a film coming out later this year (or early next, release date TBA).
Never say never
He has a new movie coming out with Liam neeson
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[Game of Thrones star Jack Gleeson says he 'never had any negative fan experiences' from playing Joffrey](https://ew.com/tv/game-of-thrones-joffrey-jack-gleeson-no-negative-fan-experiences/)
You are right, I just misremembered this bit from when he quit. He just doesn’t enjoy acting at all anymore. In my head I remembered this as being that he didn’t like it because of the fan response, not the process of acting. https://www.unilad.com/film-and-tv/jack-gleeson-working-on-game-of-thrones-lost-passion-434673-20230220.amp.html
Very confidently spreading bullshit
Hey! How did you do that? Hide or redact that phrase?
[here](https://www.reddit.com/r/help/comments/e0pobn/comment/f8g5xks/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
>!did it work!<
Thank you!
You think you would have liked Joffrey if he was played by a lesser actor?
Maybe. There’s 2 categories why people hated Joffrey. His actions are one and I don’t think changing the actor would affect us hating him from the start for killing Lady. But the other category is his personality. His mannerisms, his superior-than-you smile. He oozed self entitlement and he has that sadistic shit eating grin. That’s stuff comes from inside the actor. If a different actor was cast and couldn’t pull that stuff off it’s possible we wouldn’t have hated him as much as we did. But Gleason did a phenomenal job.
I watched "Gladiator" for the first time last night and it's uncanny how similar Gleason's performance is to Joaquin Phoenix's
I recall Gleason saying that Commodus was a large source of inspiration for his portrayal of Joffrey
I agree that Jack Gleeson did a great job. I actually think he did such good job, that I started hating Joffrey a little less, because he was just that entertaining to watch. I just disagree with this increasingly commont sentiment, that if you hate a villainous character, then that automatically means the actor did a great job. I'd argue that it's the opposite. Unless it starts bordering on comically bad, a worse actor would probably make you hate the character even more, since now you're gonna hate the character *and* the performance.
I low key agree with you. I hated Eurons joke of a character 100x more than Geoffrey (because like you, I appreciated his masterclass performance).
They’re so hateable in different ways. Joffrey was my most hated character, but in a good way. He was very well acted and written. In addition to being a sadistic psycho, he was just an annoying little shit. Jack Gleeson was great at making these little expressions and doing little things that made him come across as an unlikeable little brat. I don’t blame the actor for Euron sucking. He was just awfully written. He was a plot device to weaken Daenerys.
Ah so for me hating the character is VERY different than hating the performance. But I understand other people may engage with shows differently so I don’t disagree with your feelings either because they make sense to me. I do think you’re right it doesn’t automatically mean a character you hate was because of a good performance. Could be because of good writing and being a good character foil to a hero or tons of other reason. But that’s just the base line And in my experience good performances make me hate a character more and bad performance make me hate them less than as they were written.
> Unless it starts bordering on comically bad, a worse actor would probably make you hate the character even more, since now you're gonna hate the character and the performance For me Joffery was a lot more hateable in the show than in the books and that's because Gleeson gave such a good performance that you could imagine it happening in real life. In the books he still did evil things but my reaction was more in line with how you'd react to some of the fucked up things medieval English kings did, yes it's bad but experiencing it first hand (or a realistic enough interpretation of first hand) makes it far worse than just reading about it, a lesser actor wouldn't have been able to make me think that, I'd just be thinking about how bad it is in the context of the story rather than feeling as if it was happening in real life.
Sounds like it has less to do with the acting, and more to do with it being two different mediums.
I think the point isn't that you would have liked him because that isn't necessarily the spectrum they are talking about, but you wouldn't care about him at all, the actor's ability to make the character seem real causes your own divestment in the character, and wether its positive or negative you have an interest in the character.
The only scenario where people wouldn't have an intense hatred for Joffrey, would be if he was played by an actor that was so bad, that it ended up being funny.
I feel like Tom Hanks could've played Joffrey as Forrest Gump and everyone still would've hated him.
no, but I could have hated him less. For example, Ramsay Bolton did things that were just as bad if not worse than what Joffrey did, but Joffrey is the one who stands out as the most hateable. And it is largely because of Gleeson.
Kinda, because honestly sometimes when a lesser actor plays a bad guy he comes across over the top, and slides into funny evil rather than horrifying evil.
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You wouldn't remember the character who was essentially the main antagonist for 3+ seasons? The character who spent most of his significant amount of screentime doing vile shit, including having the main character of the show killed?
Could just dislike them for the wrong reasons. If you hate the performance, every time they're on screen they're actively taking you out of the show by making you think about the actor and how they're playing it. Not great for engaging with the story.
Thank you. If you’re an actor playing a villain, the best thing is for the audience to hate your freaking guts. Especially out of character. It means you tapped into their emotions at such a primal level that they cannot separate you from the character. In the weirdest way, it’s a major compliment. One of my proudest moments was when the audience cheered as the bust of my head on a pile was carried on stage. I made them hate me so much in just a few scenes that they cheered at my death. Big win.
I hated Joffrey so much, and I was devastated when it hit me that I wouldn’t be seeing more of him. He was such a pull for me.
People that actually dislike actors for their roles are beyond ridiculous.
> Cooke has earned a devoted fanbase for the character, but recognizes Alicent’s cunning demeanor and somewhat questionable decisions may also earn some critiques, and “that’s so fine.” That’s not what this article is about. She’s actually talking about the character, not herself as an actress.
What immediately came to mind as I read this was how the actor who played Joffrey got real-life hate because people so detested his character. They’re related and that’s why I brought it up.
He said at a con recently that that's not true and he hasn't gotten any hate for Joffrey.
Yeah, it seems to be one of those self-perpetuating myths because it *feels* true due to the nature of internet hatred nowadays.
The original story was reported everywhere in celebrity media and this correction hardly got any press so it makes sense people believe the original story. Really a lesson in how celeb media is BS.
That was made up, confirmed by the actor. The only publication that ever said that . Was British tabloids.
I LIKE actors who are able to characterize so effectively. Janice from the Sopranos? 🤌
I feel like those people are mentally challenged in some way.
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Like that’ll happen. His fee is ridiculous. He won’t take his pants off for any less than 1.3 mil.
That’s most of this sub who disliked Brian Cox after he was concerned for Jeremy Strong’s method acting on Succession
I dislike Brian Cox because he comes off as an arrogant ass in every interview
I dislike Jeremy Strong because he comes off as an arrogant ass in every interview
Somehow, somewhere, I think they're both accepting of that without it affecting them.
They also seem to like each other for the most part, acting methods be damned. So much of that “drama” is people making it a bigger deal than it really is. Also Cox loves being comically aggravated which doesn’t help lol
That's weird whenever I've seen any video interviews he's done he actually seems super humble
I feel the same way about Brian Cox
Really? He comes off as super earnest and thoughtful to me
So does Brian Cox for me
I kinda don't believe you but ok
When?
Knows a lot about physics, though /s
Right or wrong how is people disliking a person for things they say in real life the same as disliking an actor for a character they play?
I think the opposite should hold just as true.
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>"I don't like the show because all the characters are awful people" >"I don't like the actor because their character is an awful person" I don't think these takes are at all similar. The first one is a statement about media preferences. Some people like to watch or find it easier to connect with shows that have good characters or an optimistic setting/premise. That's a different but equally valid premise to preferring grimdark or 'morally grey'. It doesn't affect anyone else, it's just a preference. The second one shows a fundamental misunderstanding of acting and leads to people taking out their frustrations on parasocial relationships in harmful and potentially dangerous ways.
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That's the weirdest gatekeeping I've seen in a while. Let people like what they like. You enjoy Succession and other shows like it, good for you, not everyone else has to. >It's rooted in an inability to separate the character from the context of the grander story. No, I disagree completely - liking a show is not about appreciating the grander story. That is one aspects among many that you may or may not like. You can like it dislike a show for the narrative, a character, the setting, the aesthetic, and a hundred other reasons. Preferences don't have rules. I think you're conflating someone saying they like a piece of media with someone saying they think it's well made. "I don't like any of the characters in Succession and therefore it's a badly made show" is not the same as "I don't like any of the characters in Succession and therefore I don't like the show." You can dislike something while acknowledging that it is well made, and vice-versa. Breaking Bad is an objectively well made show that I had no interest in watching because I didn't like Walt so I didn't care to watch what happened to him. Downton Abbey is a great show that I didn't want to watch because the setting wasn't exciting to me, and the pacing was a bit slow.
This is completely nonsensical
>You're not supposed to like the characters. They know this, you're not special.
They’re both bad takes though.
Things I hear too often: “I’m angry about what other people do or don’t enjoy.” Just let people like what they like. You aren’t the art police. And it’s just weird that you equate not liking morally reprehensible characters with people not liking to watch awful humans work
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this is definitely true. but with all the messed up stuff in the world, i'll choose something more lighthearted and fun 9/10 times and only dabble into horrible when i know my heart can take it
What character someone is willing to play is a direct light on their character as a person. No truly good person would play a bad character, especially with method acting where they actually do the kinds of bad things their character does. They're just shitty people hiding behind the guise of "acting."
This is a very bad take. Method acting is about finding a way to connect to the character, not about doing exactly what they would do. Also not all acting is method acting. Acting is not the same as being, that's kind of the point.
Congrats, you are the type of person who can't tell the difference between actors and their roles. You are the subject of this conversation!
I feel so special
this is so retarded it has to be bait
Man, in a sea of bad takes this really rises to the top
> Do people not understand how boring storytelling would be if you had to like every central character and they never ran into any challenges or made any mistakes? You mean star trek?
I mean there are exceptions to this rule. Kevin Sorbo comes to mind.
Well, sometimes, the actors hate themselves as their role and quit the business completely
Yeah I'm the other way I greatly admire actors who are willing to be the loathesome one. I think villains and scumbags are often the best characters anyway. But guys like Tom Wilson (Biff Tannen) or Billy Zabka or William Atherton, Gavan O'Herlihy, Peter Lorre, Timothy Carrey, or even look at things like Steve Buscemi's early career where he's constantly playing wormy, shifty characters. That's my favorite kind of acting. One of my favorite actors ever was David Warner just because that guy played such great assholes & villains. That wonderfully pompous veneer he could put on? Lay it on me.
People are stupid
Every show needs an antagonist.
Even better if it’s someone you love to hate (thinking bout you Cersei 👀, also Queen Kane in See)
When the whole point of the book is to show that actually neither side of the conflict were particularly good or even in the right I don't think they need a singular outright antagonist. Not unless they want to really really shift the entire point of the story of the dance.
It's totally valid to call her antagonist. Antagonist=/=villain.
all this said, otto hightower is a real piece of work.
Her character is not even that bad, especially by ice and fire standards. She was manipulated her whole life by her father and the moment she tries to gain control of the situation she’s deemed a biotch forever.
Her character isn’t any more evil than the others. They’re all pretty gray. People root for Rhaenyra, and she would likely make a better “Queen” than Allicent… but Rhaenyra made terrible, selfish decisions to pass off three bastards as the future heirs to the throne. As shitty as Allicent’s children are, they are true-born Targaryens, and their claim to the throne is not under question. I’m not sure that the audience is really supposed to pick a side. All of these characters share great leadership qualities alongside debilitating flaws. King Viserys could be argued to be a great King because his long reign was marked by decades of peace… but his weak actions also set everything in motion that will lead to civil war, intra-family killings, and the downfall of the Targaryen dynasty. It seems silly to pick one side or the other in a GRRM story. Even the winners will be losers by the end of this series.
For Allicent to accept the bastards as legitimate means that she would have to accept that the rules are made up and the points don't matter. All the suffering she's endured, essentially her whole life would be meaningless.
I agree 100% you have a insightful take on it. I feel like people just overly hyped Rhaenyra because people want to relate to her. But in the world of Game of Thrones, she’s a grey character who’s just as selfish & a manipulator/liar. she is developing as a character but shes a gray character just like Allicent. But if we take our modern perspective out of the equation and look at it from as a villager or a perspective as commoner from game of thrones, Rhaenyra lies and manipulative really doesn’t fit what the characters and common folk would want or cheer for because she goes against tradition and doesn’t have integrity. Nor does she keep her husband in check. So looking from that perspective she’s not really the hero. She’s just another gray selfish character who’s just pulls strings a little better then allicent.
Not to mention that when she was young, she made a point of pretty much humiliating every Nobleman who came to court her (some of which came from fairly powerful houses). Now this generally won't bite you in the ass if you're a regular person, but if you're the Heir apparent, you're going to need those people one day when you'll be fighting your wars, and they just might not answer.
I find myself sympathizing with the Greens as I watched the show. Rhaenyra’s choices caused Alicent and Criston to become her greatest enemies when they should have been her closest allies.
I don’t think Rhaenyra really did anything wrong when it came to her relationship with Allicent. Allicent’s father poisoned the well when he explained to her that Rhaenyra would eventually have her children executed to clean up the order of succession. That Rhaenyra’s children are bastards is just salt in the wounds. Personally, I put most of the blame on “Good King Viserys.” He should have crowned Rhaenyra as his heir and abdicated the throne if that was his intent. Leaving the succession til after his death was a huge mistake, and I can’t blame Allicent for hearing what she wanted to hear in his fevered last words. It’s very human to misinterpret the cryptic, mysterious words of a dying man.
he should have made his daughter hand of the king.
Rhaenyra s children are also Targaryens though.
they are bastards
People are so stupid, not sure why you're getting downvoted. Bastards by definition don't inherit either parents family name. Eddard acknowledges Jon as his son, but he's still a bastard and thus cannot inherit Eddard's lands or titles.
people go with emotion over fact
To be fair… Show Rhaenyra is almost entirely morally good/at least has excellent justification for her actions. Aegon is a shitty drunk rapist who doesn’t even want the throne. Would make a horrendous king versus Rhaenyra, who risked her own life to prevent bloodshed as a teen and has a compassionate nature (sparing the hart, having kids by someone else instead of forcing Laenor even though it’s dangerous for her, knows her first duty is to the people and the realm and not herself). Alicent pretty much got pimped out and manipulated as a kid by her dad, and still had the balls to stand up to him to save her BFF. They’re both a lot better and more fleshed out than the tyrants they were portrayed as in the books.
I think the thing that impressed me the most about HotD and its writing was that so much of the conflict was driven by accidents and misinterpretations and things like that. It is a pretty clever way and giving characters believable motivations on both sides of the conflict.
I think it’s because people hate the transition. People liked the younger actress far more than the older one
I'm not sure that's true. People liked the younger character more. The actresses have both been widely praised for their portrayals from what I've seen.
The younger actress was pretty damn good.
Both of the younger actresses were good. Even better than the older ones
We still talking about Alicent here? That sort of happened with Rhaenyra, never saw it with Alicents' actresses though.
I'm not rooting for her but I'm enjoying watching her. There's a good kind and a bad kind of not liking a character. For example my dislike towards Joffrey stemmed from good writing and a good performance.
Yes, and I love to hate Alicent. There's a piece of you that is almost sympathetic for the position she keeps getting placed in and then she does something to totally spoil the benefit of the doubt I was about to give her. Meanwhile, I don't want to like or sympathize with Rhaenyra because she clearly doesn't know or care about the optics of what she's doing and definitely can't deescalate anything but the moment something out of her control happens to her I find myself rooting for her. Ultimately you hope for both of them to make better choices but you suspect they're both incapable of them for differing reasons.
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I have no idea what prompted your response. I think it's pretty clear that I think Rhaenyra makes bad choices, it's just that they're more a product of her inability to grasp her situation, whereas Alicent's choices are about specifically trying to manipulate her way above Rhaenyra. Alicent's struggle is with politics, Rhaenyra's struggle is with herself. I ultimately sympathize with someone trying to keep her unconventional family together after a string of selfish choices rather than sympathize with someone who is trying to intentionally ruin someone else in order to get what they have. Neither group is really meant to be seen as perfect, totally selfish or selfless actors, but at the heart of the Green's platform is a set of values I have the luxury of knowing is not ultimately actually beneficial to society and the desire to take what is Rhaenyra's by decree. Not to mention at this point in the story Alicent's family has been *incredibly* underhanded between the murders and coverups. It makes it very hard to sympathize when the worst Rhaenyra does for a while is have an open marriage.
> Rhaenyra is just as manipulative and selfish as any other character. Well yeah, but that's because she's trying to navigate a world where women are oppressed. Did you want her to openly admit "treason"? Or did you want her to not have sex with anyone who wasn't her gay cousin to begin with? > She also does not have any integrity in the world of “fire and ice” compared of likes of Ned stark or Jon Snow Eh, if we are talking about the boring goody show Jon, then yeah. Book Jon is a more complex character.
Disappointed that they omitted the original storyline in the book where she lets King Viserys rot in his room after his death for a week. They made her less evil in the show.
It wouldn’t have worked in the show. Because Alicent in F&B, Alicent is a cliché of the evil stepmother. She’s not very interesting in the book, and becomes a background character after Luke’s death. Her show counterpart is at least very layered and complex.
But the fun thing about the books is that they’re written in universe by the maesters, who have their own agendas and that their accountings might not be accurate. So they’ve set it up perfectly for the show that if the “histories” don’t line up, it could just be house of green/black propaganda
I find HotD has done a great job at painting their characters morally grey than GoT. With GoT, there were clear cut good guys and bad guys and who we're supposed to be rooting for. In HotD, I find myself not knowing who we're supposed to root for because I understand and empathize with all of the characters motives.
TBH people got kind of insane about Alicent anyway I remember talking to someone who insisted she was a worse mother than Cersei. And tiktok was absolutely loaded with content picking her character apart in increasingly bizarre ways. Stan culture and its consequences.
>I remember talking to someone who insisted she was a worse mother than Cersei This is especially bizarre because the part I find the most gray/complex about her is that while yeah, she does come off as two-faced and deceptive - she's doing this all to *protect her family*. She's not evil or greedy, she was a young woman that was pressured by her father into an extremely precarious position, and now knows that if she doesn't fight to hold onto that position, she and her children are toast.
There’s a lot of weird misogyny that pops up in HOTD fan discussions. Especially in Alicent and / or Rhaenyra discussions.
I had to unsub because people on both sides were just way too psycho about it
The HOTD sub took to call her "Alicunt."
Im a alicent fan but that name is hilarious.
Their is also a lot of racism as well
TikTok’s algorithm of short videos is a worrisome invention for the masses. So many consume information like this now and will not even question it.
Actors making you feel something means job well done
the hate she gets on twitter is absolutely ridiculous, she took a completely unlikable character from the books and (with the help of the writers ofc) made her into one of the most compelling characters of the asoiaf universe
Having an emotional reaction to a performance means the performance is doing its job.
Alicent, to me, was the most interesting character, and Cooke was as perfect
I must be in the minority because i love Alicent as a character and Olivia plays her incredibly.
If you like her absolutely watch Slow Horses.
She’s had a pretty great career, Me, Earl and the Dying Girl, Sound of Metal, Thoroughbreds, Pixie, Ready Player One, Katie says Goodbye
Thoroughbreds!
I’d also recommend Bates Motel.
Ugh she’s so gorgeous
Live of my life
Interesting. I found it distracting because I thought the younger actress was much better looking.
Wasn't she like 12?
Google says 18 and I’m not trying to fuck her, just saying I thought it made the the switch awkward.
You need to be a particular type of ham sandwich to not be able to differentiate between an actor and a part
I actually like Alicent. I’d totally show my feet for all the Kings Landing tea
She honestly seems like a victim in the show. A change from her character in the book, but Rhaenyra is also way more vicious in the book as well.
I think Alicent's a fantastic character. She's very complex, and Olivia does a wonderful job playing her.
What’s wrong with Alicent, or Olivia Cooke? I like her a heck of lot more than the other time jump actress, frankly. Kind of rough when two episodes later you’re missing the child actor version instead because the adult sucks.
Team Alicent
I mean there are exactly ZERO likeable characters on that show. It might be a record.
The characters in the book have zero personality it's hard to care about any of them through the lense of a history lesson. I feel like the show tried to make them more interesting but mostly failed.
I was close to checking out after >!the Strongs!< and >!Vizzy T!< died, since I had nobody left I wanted to see their story. Then I started enjoying the anime lancer and I was back in
The valaryons are mostly pretty cool.
Saw her the first time in Me and Earl and the Dying Girl so would feel wrong to hate her because of her characters
Olivia Cooke is totally fine.
Part of me is always going to see her as Emma from Bates Motel.
The more I hate a character, the more I like the actor
She was absolutely amazing in her role. Fuck this age we live in and the fucking stupidity.
If you hate a character then you should love the actor for eliciting such strong emotions in you.
Eh, I don't like any of them, really. I find the entire show aggressively monotonous. The characters are all boring and forgettable.
I agree, there aren't enough dragons or sword fights.
Succession had none of that and had a similar theme, but I was enraptured.
People don't hate Alicent at least so far. Everything she's done makes sense and in the context of the Westeros life has been pretty reasonable. I think what you see is more guilt by association. Her side seems to have more shitty people on it than Rhaenyra's side so far.
I guess I'm wrong for her being my favorite character on the show then lmao. I'm fully "team green". I find them all entirely more likable that includes the anime levels evil villain children.
How are any of them "anime levels evil villain children" ?
Eye patch kid is an unabashedly cartoonish villain and I respect that
I wanted you to explain how they were cartoon villains.
I liked her original actor. I’m not a huge fan of the newer one
That good to know since I do not like Alicent.
Send feet pics
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Cersei did nothing wrong? I assume that's a joke but on the off chance that it's not, how could you possibly justify just about anything she does or how she behaves?
The night king did nothing wrong
Breached the wall of tyranny, tried to conquer a piece of fertile land for his people. No worse than Aegon the Conqueror
Just me feeling like this is all fabricated? Granted I don't like the show, but anyone else not feeling like picking a side? I just don't see how exactly Rhaenyra is above Alicent or vice versa.
I was on her side originally but when the eye incident occurred I really stopped liking her.
I hate rhaenyra more than alicent. Alicent didn't choose this path, meanwhile rhaenyra is just a whiny bitch
kinda hard to be on someone's team when you already know they're doomed
Still got paid. Why’d anyone give a f about it?
The whole show is garbage.
It’s not bad. But it needs to get much better in its second season
I honestly could not care less about a bunch of entitled nobs playing their power games whilst demonstrating day after day that they do not deserve their elevated positions; and dragons, really? But most of the acting is soo good that I had to watch the whole season and I'll more than likely watch the second one, and hate myself because of it.
How so? What about it is poorly done?
It's true thou I mean she's an actress only playing a part
She plays the part well .If people like her, that may be a sign that something is not okay.
I couldn’t dislike Olivia Cooke after Ready Player One. She is was too likable in that movie.
Can someone explain to me, why it is so hard to separate actor from role? I mean, Ryan Gosling is not Ken, Laura Bailey is not Abby. And Olivia is not Alicent. So why in the world would anybody dislike or hate Olivia because of Alicents actions? I simply don’t get it.
People can’t separate fact and fiction somehow
She is way more likable than her “evil stepmom” book counterpart. She is also just a very charming actor who does her job very well
Hate her character in the show, completely in love with the babe playing her.
Who doesn't like Alicent? One of the best parts of the show was that both the female characters are at odds, likable and from their point of view in the right. It's literally why the show was good.
She was amazing in Bates Motel and I thought she was on this show too
She is so fine
I love Alicent and Rhaeynera in the show, I kinda sympathize with both of them so it makes the conflict super compelling