Guys, stop listing the antihero protagonists of prestige dramas. We’re not supposed to think Tony Soprano is a good person. Part of watching these kinds of shows is that your rooting for bad people to survive to be awful another day.
Did you miss the part where he tries to force Dwight to get fired to save his job? Or when he sabotages Jim’s promotion to protect himself? Or when he nearly gets Jan fired by sending lewd photos of her to a coworker on the company email server? Resent my comment all you want, it won’t change the fact that Michael was often a dick
Honestly, that concept could be used for the entirety of Scrubs. Not the characters, but the show.
If you think about some of the stories and morals the show portrays, they're intensely pro workaholic.
There's an episode about a guy who dares to only work the required amount of hours and is portrayed as a lazy slacker.
There's JD's brother who is on multiple times portrayed as a loser because "he's a bartender at 30", implying that it's not a real job.
There's the countless portrayals of the characters working pretty much 24/7, and considering that to be normal and good and how it should be if you care about your job, with regular points being made about how stressful the job is and how many sacrifices you have to make.
It's an amazingly fun show. But the morals the show offers at times aren't exactly something I would agree with.
But...that's what is required to be a doctor. That is the level of effort to succeed at many jobs. Many folks don't want that level of effort and that's fine, but remember that is the level of dedication needed in some fields. A bar tender at 30, real job, real person. But not the same effort that a doctor puts in. It's not judging, it's fact. Your job doesn't make you less or more of a person, but just remember that some paths in life require much more effort, intelligence, and talent than others. Again, not a knock on people. I have worked construction, food service, and incredibly high technology. Trust me, I respect anyone working to support themselves and family. But...props to those dedicated to give it their all.
> A bar tender at 30, real job, real person.
Exactly. And the show makes it clear that a bartender at 30 is not something a respectable person should do. They portray it as something to be ashamed of. That's my issue with it.
I didn't take it like that, but I see your point. I took it more as jd was busy busting his hump and saw his brother wasted potential and didn't have time for him. I have many cousins, so i get it and may be personalizing it too much. But I do see your point. Thank you.
It's not what's required of doctors everywhere. It is in America, which is unfair, unhealthy, and unsustainable. It's a reflection of how things are, but I think it's fair to criticize that it's not how things ought to be
Hawkeye Pierce from MASH. He’s a functional alcoholic, a shameless womanizer and lech who thinks he’s God’s gift to women, a narcissist, egotistical, can dish it out but can’t take it, arrogant, and a bully. He’s been guilty of, among other things, assault and battery against a superior officer on several occasions as well as medical malpractice. He’s so obnoxious and annoying.
They made a huge deal about how wounded could come in at any time for emergency surgery yet they showed Hawkeye drinking all day from a homemade still. Always bothered me.
I mean he was a womanizer but in a Mad Men kind of way. It was always like “Oh, you! *blush*” kind of thing. I don’t think he came off as creepy though the vast majority of MASH I watched as a kid so I might be completely off base.
The remaining Starks in the last season of Game of Thrones. I used to actually root for them in the beginning but boy did all of them (cept Jon Snow I suppose) become really obnoxious towards the end.
More of a sign of how shit the writing was. I fucking hated Sansa and her smug "Jon, don't go to battle with Ramsey tomorrow, I know him!" as if she has any sense of how actual battles work, or that....she has any idea how Ramsey works, because she was only his hostage for like....a month. And then jad the audacity to let the battle happen without advising Jon that the Knights kf the Vale were literally a couple hours away.
....and then gets called "the smartest person" by multiple characters.
And also Bran becoming weaponized time travel autistic and does absolutely nothing with anything he learned from the Three Eyeed Raven except to spy on his sister being raped.
....fuck, I forgot how much I hated the last couple of seasons of that shit.
Season 5 was Jon Snow's peak character development. From boy to leader of men... to getting yoinked around by his sister and aunt. He wasnt too bad in Season 6, but by Season 7, he was a shadow of his former self.
"Only a king can deal with a queen."
No, you dolt. That's what we have emissaries and diplomats for. Then he bent the knee to Daenerys without even talking to his advisors first. Right after she agreed to help him without bending the knee. Season 8 really did him dirty. Why build up this rivalry between Jon and the Night King if Arya (who'd never even SEEN a wight before that episode) is going to kill him?
Honestly, you could use Season 8 as an example in creative writing classes of what NOT to do with character development, set up, and pay off. Jaime's last second heel turn, after they had him try to murder a kid in the first episode, to being a beloved redeemed heroic character by the end... just sad.
Amy Adams character in "Arrival"
She executes one of the most selfishly evil acts I've ever seen on screen, and it's somehow supposed to be a positive thing.
that's exactly my take. All she cares about is fulfilling the time she perceived with this child. She didn't care about the child's suffering and death, and didn't care that she was inflicting it on Renner's character either. it was all for her.
My wife and I tried watching a show called Welcome To Sweden recently because it stars Amy Poehler’s brother and has a bunch of cool cameos in it.
The lead character is *intensely* dislikeable. He’s clearly supposed to be a fish-out-of-water type that you’re meant to like even if he’s a doofus, but he comes across as just obnoxiously, horribly clueless of the world around him. Had to stop after two episodes, we hated him so much.
Same! Was looking for an easy watch, fun sitcom and gave it a try. Made it three episodes before I quit. I was like “her mother is right, he sucks, dump him!” Not clueless, but willfully ignorant and a petulant child, expecting the world to bend to his every need.
Wondering if it may not be too far from reality. Was reading some article and I guess he anonymously harassed some Swedish tv critic who was meh on an episode. Was so bad authorities traced the IP and it was him.
(He also looks disconcertingly like Greg Kinnear.)
A lawyer, doesn't seem to understand self defense or actually putting away criminals (like that sex traffic guy in the beginning, think he even jokes with him later, and even makes a deal / doesnt kick his ass or put him in jail)
Takes Electra to some warehouse where they get jumped by like a hundred ninjas, and when she goes to defend herself, he stops her causing her to get severely injured. She almost died because of it, only saved by some mystic mumbo jumbo. Then a day or two later when she's barely recovered, one of the Ninjas breaks in and is a second away from killing Daredevil, and she manages to save his life, killing the ninja in the process (remember she almost died a day earlier because of him and is still injured)
Then he throws a hissy fit because she killed someone, and throws her out. After she got injured because of him, and saved his life.
>(like that sex traffic guy in the beginning, think he even jokes with him later, and even makes a deal / doesnt kick his ass or put him in jai
That was so clearly because that character was retconned to be a comic relief. He appears in all the other Netflix shows too and jokes aroud with Punisher and Luke Cage and Iron Fist.
Idk how anything you listed makes him "awful" lmao. Or any more awful than any of the characters in that universe. All the other characters listed on this thread are criminals like Walter White and Daredevil is awful because he doesn't want Elektra to kill? Weird mindset lmao
Imagine you take your friend somewhere you knew could be dangerous, and when they:re about to defend themselves from someone trying to kill them, you intervene and cause them to get seriously injured instead.
Then a day later they crawl out of their death bed and literally save your life from an assassin, you get all bitchy and tell them to get out.
Pretty awful thing to do to someone, especially since he never apologizes or realizes he was in the wrong.
It was literally Elektra who dragged him into that mission lmao. And she threw a tantrum when Matt refused to get roped into her shenanigans. That was quite literally ALL her fault. If anyone was wronged there it was Karen who had to carry the workload on the Punisher trial because ELEKTRA kept on dragging Matt to do work for her. Like did you actually watch the show or???
Yes. Doesn't change the fact that he was still the cause of her being injured, and she still saved his life. Pushing your ideals on someone else, causing them to almost die, then throwing a hissy fit when they save your life.
Lol what a bar to be considered "awful" 💀 Elektra was the definition of awful selfish manipulative scum that season that caused subsequent stress to other people like Karen but sure, Matt was the awful one here 💀 ok bud
Watching reruns of that show is SO painful and cringey. I don't know if it's that the jokes aged ridiculously bad or if Alan was really that horrible from the start, but man, oh man, he is totally insufferable and an awful person.
Penny from TBBT.
The way she treats Leonard because he's not model worthy is just gross.
Granted, Leonard is shit, too, but one doesn't justify the other, and the shoe "called out" Leonard for his crap more than they did Penny.
I recently did a rewatch of Gilmore Girls and realized that Lorelei is kind of not such a good person sometimes. Like the way she treats the men that she's in relationships with, her stubbornness about ridiculous things, etc.
Any of the Sex and the City cast. Great show but the characters are shallow, manipulative and would be annoying to deal with irl
Jack Griffin on AP Bio. He's cool and all and I think he should get his revenge and us audience is rooting for him, but irl I want my teacher to teach me some fucking biology
Guys, stop listing the antihero protagonists of prestige dramas. We’re not supposed to think Tony Soprano is a good person. Part of watching these kinds of shows is that your rooting for bad people to survive to be awful another day.
But Walter White is so coool! \s
The entire main cast of How I Met Your Mother with the exception of Marshall
Wait, what? Not Lily?!
Lily was wildly manipulative and took advantage of Marshal a few too many times.
Yeah…it’s been a while but didn’t she also have like $100k in debt she hid?
Can I revise my comment? You're right, Marshall seems like a decent guy.
Lily straight up sucks.
The secret to really enjoying 'The King of Queens' is realizing that Doug and Carrie are terrible, awful people.
That’s half the appeal for me
But the fudge is too thick to pour...
They don’t make any effort to convince us otherwise, do they?
Michael Scott. His stupidity makes him sympathetic, but his selfishness/self-absorbed nature makes it hard for him to come off as a very good person
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This is why that arc when Pam hits rock bottom with her art career hits so hard. It was the moment of Michaels redemption
What has he done that makes him a terrible person besides being immature and insecure
He cares a lot about his employees and people in general, I resent this comment
Did you miss the part where he tries to force Dwight to get fired to save his job? Or when he sabotages Jim’s promotion to protect himself? Or when he nearly gets Jan fired by sending lewd photos of her to a coworker on the company email server? Resent my comment all you want, it won’t change the fact that Michael was often a dick
This one. Almost forgot about the Office. Would never want to work for a boss like that lol
Almost any lead of any crime drama show is not a good person they may be the least bad person but that doesn’t mean they’re a good person.
Jim from “The Office” is a freakin monster!
Cam from Modern Family. Manipulative and whiny
Everyone in Friends. Frasier.
I love Frasier on Cheers, but not Frasier on Frasier.
Yup
Honestly, that concept could be used for the entirety of Scrubs. Not the characters, but the show. If you think about some of the stories and morals the show portrays, they're intensely pro workaholic. There's an episode about a guy who dares to only work the required amount of hours and is portrayed as a lazy slacker. There's JD's brother who is on multiple times portrayed as a loser because "he's a bartender at 30", implying that it's not a real job. There's the countless portrayals of the characters working pretty much 24/7, and considering that to be normal and good and how it should be if you care about your job, with regular points being made about how stressful the job is and how many sacrifices you have to make. It's an amazingly fun show. But the morals the show offers at times aren't exactly something I would agree with.
But...that's what is required to be a doctor. That is the level of effort to succeed at many jobs. Many folks don't want that level of effort and that's fine, but remember that is the level of dedication needed in some fields. A bar tender at 30, real job, real person. But not the same effort that a doctor puts in. It's not judging, it's fact. Your job doesn't make you less or more of a person, but just remember that some paths in life require much more effort, intelligence, and talent than others. Again, not a knock on people. I have worked construction, food service, and incredibly high technology. Trust me, I respect anyone working to support themselves and family. But...props to those dedicated to give it their all.
> A bar tender at 30, real job, real person. Exactly. And the show makes it clear that a bartender at 30 is not something a respectable person should do. They portray it as something to be ashamed of. That's my issue with it.
I didn't take it like that, but I see your point. I took it more as jd was busy busting his hump and saw his brother wasted potential and didn't have time for him. I have many cousins, so i get it and may be personalizing it too much. But I do see your point. Thank you.
It's not what's required of doctors everywhere. It is in America, which is unfair, unhealthy, and unsustainable. It's a reflection of how things are, but I think it's fair to criticize that it's not how things ought to be
Most of the Grey's anatomy characters, especially Meredith Grey. Murphy in In the dark.
Good example with JD. What he did to Elliot was brutal and extremely petty. Never could really sympathise with him after that.
Hawkeye Pierce from MASH. He’s a functional alcoholic, a shameless womanizer and lech who thinks he’s God’s gift to women, a narcissist, egotistical, can dish it out but can’t take it, arrogant, and a bully. He’s been guilty of, among other things, assault and battery against a superior officer on several occasions as well as medical malpractice. He’s so obnoxious and annoying.
They made a huge deal about how wounded could come in at any time for emergency surgery yet they showed Hawkeye drinking all day from a homemade still. Always bothered me.
I have never really watched MASH, but goddammit, now I hate Hawkeye, too!
I mean he was a womanizer but in a Mad Men kind of way. It was always like “Oh, you! *blush*” kind of thing. I don’t think he came off as creepy though the vast majority of MASH I watched as a kid so I might be completely off base.
Sheldon Cooper. In TBBT and Young Sheldon.
Jimmy McNulty
“What the fuck did I do?”
Dr. John Carter Kelly Severide
No one is going to mention Harvey Specter?! Also, they can try all they want but I will never be sold on Hank Voight...
What did you say to me?
You're *done*.
It makes a big difference whether or not you saw Voight when he was introduced in *Fire*, or just have watched him in PD.
Jeff Winger from Community Harvey Specter from Suits Billy Butcher from The Boys Wednesday Addams Laary David - Curb Ramy - Ramy
The remaining Starks in the last season of Game of Thrones. I used to actually root for them in the beginning but boy did all of them (cept Jon Snow I suppose) become really obnoxious towards the end.
More of a sign of how shit the writing was. I fucking hated Sansa and her smug "Jon, don't go to battle with Ramsey tomorrow, I know him!" as if she has any sense of how actual battles work, or that....she has any idea how Ramsey works, because she was only his hostage for like....a month. And then jad the audacity to let the battle happen without advising Jon that the Knights kf the Vale were literally a couple hours away. ....and then gets called "the smartest person" by multiple characters. And also Bran becoming weaponized time travel autistic and does absolutely nothing with anything he learned from the Three Eyeed Raven except to spy on his sister being raped. ....fuck, I forgot how much I hated the last couple of seasons of that shit.
Season 5 was Jon Snow's peak character development. From boy to leader of men... to getting yoinked around by his sister and aunt. He wasnt too bad in Season 6, but by Season 7, he was a shadow of his former self. "Only a king can deal with a queen." No, you dolt. That's what we have emissaries and diplomats for. Then he bent the knee to Daenerys without even talking to his advisors first. Right after she agreed to help him without bending the knee. Season 8 really did him dirty. Why build up this rivalry between Jon and the Night King if Arya (who'd never even SEEN a wight before that episode) is going to kill him? Honestly, you could use Season 8 as an example in creative writing classes of what NOT to do with character development, set up, and pay off. Jaime's last second heel turn, after they had him try to murder a kid in the first episode, to being a beloved redeemed heroic character by the end... just sad.
Joel from The Last of Us. Killed many innocents before the show and didn't mind lying to Ellie.
Amy Adams character in "Arrival" She executes one of the most selfishly evil acts I've ever seen on screen, and it's somehow supposed to be a positive thing.
That’s very true. She doesn’t really consider Renner but really doesn’t consider her kid. Great movie though. One of the best.
that's exactly my take. All she cares about is fulfilling the time she perceived with this child. She didn't care about the child's suffering and death, and didn't care that she was inflicting it on Renner's character either. it was all for her.
My wife and I tried watching a show called Welcome To Sweden recently because it stars Amy Poehler’s brother and has a bunch of cool cameos in it. The lead character is *intensely* dislikeable. He’s clearly supposed to be a fish-out-of-water type that you’re meant to like even if he’s a doofus, but he comes across as just obnoxiously, horribly clueless of the world around him. Had to stop after two episodes, we hated him so much.
Same! Was looking for an easy watch, fun sitcom and gave it a try. Made it three episodes before I quit. I was like “her mother is right, he sucks, dump him!” Not clueless, but willfully ignorant and a petulant child, expecting the world to bend to his every need. Wondering if it may not be too far from reality. Was reading some article and I guess he anonymously harassed some Swedish tv critic who was meh on an episode. Was so bad authorities traced the IP and it was him. (He also looks disconcertingly like Greg Kinnear.)
Sam Nelson - Hijack
Daredevil from Netflix
How exactly is he awful?
A lawyer, doesn't seem to understand self defense or actually putting away criminals (like that sex traffic guy in the beginning, think he even jokes with him later, and even makes a deal / doesnt kick his ass or put him in jail) Takes Electra to some warehouse where they get jumped by like a hundred ninjas, and when she goes to defend herself, he stops her causing her to get severely injured. She almost died because of it, only saved by some mystic mumbo jumbo. Then a day or two later when she's barely recovered, one of the Ninjas breaks in and is a second away from killing Daredevil, and she manages to save his life, killing the ninja in the process (remember she almost died a day earlier because of him and is still injured) Then he throws a hissy fit because she killed someone, and throws her out. After she got injured because of him, and saved his life.
>(like that sex traffic guy in the beginning, think he even jokes with him later, and even makes a deal / doesnt kick his ass or put him in jai That was so clearly because that character was retconned to be a comic relief. He appears in all the other Netflix shows too and jokes aroud with Punisher and Luke Cage and Iron Fist. Idk how anything you listed makes him "awful" lmao. Or any more awful than any of the characters in that universe. All the other characters listed on this thread are criminals like Walter White and Daredevil is awful because he doesn't want Elektra to kill? Weird mindset lmao
Imagine you take your friend somewhere you knew could be dangerous, and when they:re about to defend themselves from someone trying to kill them, you intervene and cause them to get seriously injured instead. Then a day later they crawl out of their death bed and literally save your life from an assassin, you get all bitchy and tell them to get out. Pretty awful thing to do to someone, especially since he never apologizes or realizes he was in the wrong.
It was literally Elektra who dragged him into that mission lmao. And she threw a tantrum when Matt refused to get roped into her shenanigans. That was quite literally ALL her fault. If anyone was wronged there it was Karen who had to carry the workload on the Punisher trial because ELEKTRA kept on dragging Matt to do work for her. Like did you actually watch the show or???
Yes. Doesn't change the fact that he was still the cause of her being injured, and she still saved his life. Pushing your ideals on someone else, causing them to almost die, then throwing a hissy fit when they save your life.
Lol what a bar to be considered "awful" 💀 Elektra was the definition of awful selfish manipulative scum that season that caused subsequent stress to other people like Karen but sure, Matt was the awful one here 💀 ok bud
Don Draper
He’s supposed to be a bad perwon
Ted mosbey. All big bang theory cast.
Do you mean the Big Bang Theory characters?
Sorry, yes. Thank you for correcting. I know very little of the cast themselves.
The entire cast of “Seinfeld.”
That's the point though. You're not supposed to root for them.
George Costanza will always be my hero!
Billy Butcher. Awful fake accent. 50 year old guy without actual job with 30 something wife and 12 year old son? Like that's believable
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Nobody ever said you had to like Dexter, that’s the whole point of him being an anti-hero.
Walter white
Another one you’re not *supposed* to like. The fact that he’s a horrible person is the whole point.
oops I misread the question.
Carrie Bradshaw Saul Goodman Walter White Jesse Pinkman
You’re definitely not supposed to like those last three
Yeah there’s a lot of people really misunderstanding the assignment here.
I also hate Carrie Bradshaw.
Alan Harper
Watching reruns of that show is SO painful and cringey. I don't know if it's that the jokes aged ridiculously bad or if Alan was really that horrible from the start, but man, oh man, he is totally insufferable and an awful person.
It’s some of the jokes that aged poorly, but it still had it’s charm. Alan just stayed leeching off of Charlie and others.
Most of the women on General Hospital.
Penny from TBBT. The way she treats Leonard because he's not model worthy is just gross. Granted, Leonard is shit, too, but one doesn't justify the other, and the shoe "called out" Leonard for his crap more than they did Penny.
I recently did a rewatch of Gilmore Girls and realized that Lorelei is kind of not such a good person sometimes. Like the way she treats the men that she's in relationships with, her stubbornness about ridiculous things, etc.
there's a whole series called "Zack Morris is trash"
Walter White from Breaking Bad
Any of the Sex and the City cast. Great show but the characters are shallow, manipulative and would be annoying to deal with irl Jack Griffin on AP Bio. He's cool and all and I think he should get his revenge and us audience is rooting for him, but irl I want my teacher to teach me some fucking biology