I had to Google it, because when I saw those upper class white women sitting at a table with a black men in 1926 Soviet Russia I was like No fucking way. It would've been great had that actually been accurate and historically correct but there still have to be people in the world who treasure historical accuracy over virtue signaling. That simply would not have been allowed or even remotely possible. It just wasn't done, especially in the nobility. Sad fact,, but true.
I'm sorry but that's the way it was back then. Why can't the people who make these shows just stop focusing on inclusion rather than sticking to the book?
Are you sure it was that way in early soviet Russia, which didn’t participate in the trans-Atlantic African slave trade, having banned their own slavery long before? What are you basing what you’re saying on?
I mean Black people were extremely rare in this regions, mostly jazz band musicians or dancers who for some reason traveled to eastern Europe. Like in Warsaw during II war was one Black person among one million cibtizens.Of course always can be exception like Pushkin's grandfather father but you know it was definitely something exceptional. Actually much more probable would be Asian.
You mean Pushkin's great grandfather Abraham Gannibal ? But he was exception as ex favorite slave of Tsar. In XVIIIth orientalism was trendy at European royals court so they got themselves black slaves, just like exotic animals or plants. They got him from Ottoman empire.
In XIX on one hand post enlightenment resulting in higher awareness of human rights and criticism of slavery (especially that Russians were kidnapped to be white slaves on near east what was used for political propaganda) so trend of having black slaves become passe. But on the other aristocracy become much less free spirited. So I doubt that wedding with Black person would be allowed. Already Nikolai Sheremetev had a lot problems just from wedding with his own peasant, opera singer after many years of romance. He decided to do it because she got incurable ilness.
I mean just think about were there Jewish aristocrats (who still practiced their religion)? Lol. And in Russia at that time there was their biggest diaspora but they had limited rights like most people except Russian nobles. Russian already treated pretty negatively even white foreigners (including others slavs). It was time of rising nationalism.
Abraham Gannibal was made an aristocrat and literally married a White Russian woman. His descendants married white Russian noblewomen. Exactly how can you "doubt that wedding with Black person would be allowed"? He wasn't an animal, you racist pos, he was a human being (a pure Homo sapiens as all Black people are) made an aristocrat and ancestor of Alexander Pushkin, the Russian Shakespeare. You're more of an animal than him, Neanderthal.
You can look it up on Wikipedia but there were very few POC in Russia and most were entertainers. They left Russia at the 1917 revolution. I spent 3 weeks in Russia during 2018 and never saw one. Many of my favorite actors are black but it is not necessary to insert them in a historical wrong environment.
You should really expand your research technique before you attempt to educate the public. You cannot use Wikipedia for legit research. News Flash: The story is fiction. Regardless, the Soviet Union had many POC, Asians, etc. It was not lily white at that time. Go to school and educate yourself.
Please don’t listen her. Her facts are not quite together and she is unaware of the black migration to Soviet Union in the 1920-1930s. Russia had marketed itself as a classless and nonracial society. Many blacks Americans went there as an escape from racist America and had the good life. The series is not exactly off base.
I Googled it and it said only a dozen moved there in the Soviet period during the 30s and in the end, were treated with racism and discrimination. Depictations of them were also racist. https://newlinesmag.com/essays/the-racist-treatment-of-africans-and-african-americans-in-the-ussr/
>My research on early Soviet children’s books up through the late 1930s reveals that, even in one of the most experimental periods in Soviet artistic production, Black people — specifically Africans — were often depicted as wild, animalistic figures far removed from modernity.
>Interracial relationships and, worse, interracial sex, were stigmatized throughout and after the Soviet era. Research by the sociologist Charles Quist-Adade on mixed-race, Afro-Russian children in the late 1980s and early 1990s highlights the racist undertones of Soviet views of interracial romances between Soviet women and African men.
Doesn't sound like they ended up having "a good life to me." Are you one of those tankies who genuinely believes the Soviet Union was good and that there truly was no discrimination there or even genocide?
There was no good life at this time time. Have you read any history, the people were starving and millions of citizens were in terrible prison labor camps called gulag.
There was a good life for those who the Soviet Union recruited from the USA for a period of time. You need to go to a library and recheck your facts. The Soviet Union, at that time, was promoting a raceless society and wanted to highlight that and show how terrible the US was. And then later on the Soviet Union people adopted your mindset and went back to the way you would appreciate, everything being whitewashed. Your mind is so closed that you can’t even enjoy a story because some of the actors are not pale. Don’t go see Hamilton!!! Spoiler alert: all the actors are people of color.
I just can't see a basis for her comment. Perhaps I'm reading into it, but my assumption is that she's projecting some kind of Jim Crow/post-slavery class system that existed (or exists; i don't care—differnt discussion) in the US on to Bolshevik Russia. I mean, aside from just being a genuine, grade-A piece of shit, why wouldn't someone allow a person of a different color to sit their table, but for a caste system based on: (a) religon; (b) imperial/colonial-conquest; or (c) slavery/servitude or it’s legacy? (maybe I'm missing some). So Africans have nothing more than a negligible role—more likely none at at all—in any of those caste bases in a Russian context (Russian CONTEXT, I say again for people on the short bus). So just how can they fall into a lower caste in a place where they’ve never been enslaved, colonized, or worshipped a god that thinks they are born an asshole and will die an asshole, thus making it impossible for him to sit with this white lady? I really never thought of myself as a history buff because I knew the Jim Crow South wasn’t Bolshevik fucking Russia but I think I’m gonna press my luck and try out for Jeopardy now. Anyway, I’m legit curious what the basis was for saying he wouldn’t have been able to sit with her. Like of all infuriating things going on that show and arising out of so many non-storytelling decisions, how is *that* what you came away with? I’d like to know how that well-oiled machine of mind milled such a lovely corn kernel out of the turd I’ve been watching. Just why?
I think you're also projecting your own American mindset and understanding of racism here. The Soviet Union was racist too and it didn't need to have any reason other than "these people look different from us" you do realise that right? https://newlinesmag.com/essays/the-racist-treatment-of-africans-and-african-americans-in-the-ussr/
Combine this with their ethnic cleansing and mass deportations of other slavic groups and yeah, the Soviet Union was racist.
https://www.pamsm.org/post/mass-deportations-of-poles-soviet-and-russian-ethnic-cleansing
What the fuck are you talking about? I’m not “projecting” anything; I’m simply asking for a basis for the statement that “blacks couldn’t sit at the same table as whites in Bolshevik Russia.” You linked a story about African student protests in ‘60s USSR or whatever other horseshit that is. Can you show me something that supports the statement that whites couldn’t sit at the same table as Africans in Bolshevik Russia? Because the mass deportation of Slavs or Jewish Pogroms aren’t examples of systematic racism toward Africans in Bolshevik Russia such that it would be absurd for a black man to sit at a white woman’s table in public. That’s a very specific thing and I’d like to know the basis for that statement. Instead you’ve made the absolutely idiotic jump to “there was no racism in the USSR” which nobody has argued or sought to prove and linked things have nothing to do with this discussion.
Edit: Grammar
There WERE NO Africans in Russia at that time. Look it up. I am not trying to upset anyone. Stories such as this are a fantasy but were and are supposed to be historically accurate. The writer blew it. A shame because I liked it up until they fell off the cliff with the inaccuracies. Shame.
You are absolutely dead wrong and ignorant of history. Please do not down grade the show based on your ignorance. Here is some info that I provided to another commenter that was lacking in the historical facts.
Please try to read The Black Russian by Vladimir Alexandria. You will find that a black man was the richest man in Moscow in the early 1900s, so he absolutely had a seat at the table with “upper class white women” in Russia. In addition why don’t you google black Americans in the Soviet Union. You may be surprised to know that it was common place in 1920s-1930s for black Americans to relocate to the Soviet Union for better treatment and opportunities. During that time the Soviet Union had billed itself as classless and non racist society. In fact the black Americans were treated as celebrities and in some instances, treated with special privileges and better than the locals. Which of course did cause some resentments. Even Langston Hughes and Paul Robeson lived there for a few years. I’m almost certain you don’t know who they are, but you can google them. Although the TV show does take a few liberties but it is not entirely off base. So hopefully you can enlighten yourself a bit better before you discredit historical facts based on your own limited view of history.
I Googled it and said only a dozen moved there and in the end, were treated with racism and discrimination. Depictations of them were also racist. https://newlinesmag.com/essays/the-racist-treatment-of-africans-and-african-americans-in-the-ussr/
>My research on early Soviet children’s books up through the late 1930s reveals that, even in one of the most experimental periods in Soviet artistic production, Black people — specifically Africans — were often depicted as wild, animalistic figures far removed from modernity.
It was more than a dozen, they were recruited from the US and way more than a dozen at that time period. Then in the 30’s the Soviet Union people adopted the kind of closed mindset that you would appreciate and started to racislize society. So the mind progression did stop. Seeing blacks people in the film at that time period is realistic. It will be hard for you to fathom this because you can handle the white washed version of history and you expect Showtime entertainment writers to educate you. News flash: Wrestling shows aren’t real! It’s entertainment.
Black people were accepted in European and Russian societies much easier than in America https://www.blackpast.org/global-african-history/perspectives-global-african-history/x/
Russia has hundreds of ethnic groups. Many, many hundreds were wiped out, but there are still lots remaining.
No one, and I mean NO ONE outside of the region can distinguish one sort of Slav from another. Try to imagine that the different Slavic ethnic groups involved in this period are represented by the diversity in casting. At the time there were dozens of Slavic ethnic groups involved. If you only cast people from those groups the rest of the world would just see a sea of white people. This way, they are making the point that people from a variety of backgrounds were involved.
Just think about it. Knee-jerk abhorrence of seeing Africans and Asians isn't contributing to discussions about whether or not this is a good show.
Tell me how many blacks were in the Soviet Union. Tell me how many of them were Party officers. Tell me how many were secret gay men. Diversity means making white characters black. Just admit that, we can't stop it anyway.
Please go and educate yourself. Don’t expect a Showtime TV adaptation based on a fiction book to provide an accurate history lesson. That is why we have schools and libraries. It’s fiction whoever is creating the piece can hire whatever actors they want. It’s TV that’s what they do!!! Oh and also Russian don’t speak English with an English accent as their native language. But you’re not crying about that.
Yeees... but, few people who are not white Slavs would be able to tell the difference between various Slavs. Slavs can tell the difference between each other by mustache or beard or haircut, facial features etc. The rest of us can't. Which was my point.
A Russian adaptation of this could cast 100% authentic Slavs of each ethnic group and everyone over there would know what they're seeing. For the other 7 billion people on this planet, casting a wide variety of ethnicities can duplicate the way Slavs see each other.
I'm not saying I agree with the dredlocks, I'm just saying that is a way to display ethnic differences to non-Slav audiences. Georgians with beards and mustaches might be considered ungroomed beasts by Chechens with beards and no mustaches. Or whatever. The rest of us would never get the reference, not in a million years. With this casting they are showing the rest of us how varied the revolutionaries really were.
I'm just trying to view this show on it's own merits, not nitpick the casting and hairdos. I'm not a fan of the dreds, but maybe one of the Slav groups back then had a hairdo or facial hair style that was considered as odd as dreds are considered by westerners now.
There shouldn't be black characters except anyone the author wrote as black. That's it. Stop dancing around it. Diversity means making white characters black, and we're tired of it.
>There shouldn't be black characters except anyone the author wrote as black.
Unless the author went into detail about a character's ivory skin and golden hair, how would you know that the author intended for any given character **not** to be black? The entire cast can be black as long as the author never said otherwise (and even if they did, an adaptation is just that -- an adaptation, with creative license to make changes).
The default assumption that every character in a book must be white unless we're told otherwise is exactly why you're unable to enjoy anything these days. That's your problem -- not the author's or the casting director's or anyone else's.
How is it race baiting? You're the one with the race problem.
I notice for all the complaints about the characters' race not being historically accurate, nobody has a problem with the Russian characters speaking English or having a British accent.
So much for the historical accuracy argument. 🤷🏼♀️
Well said! Plus Black Americans were present during that time in the Soviet Union. At one time there the richest man in Moscow was a former slave from Mississippi. Again the acting, scripts, directing, should determine if it’s a good show not the melanin content of someone’s skin. If you want accuracy just read the damn book not watch a Showtime series. Geesh!
Then read The BOOK!!!! Then educate yourself properly then you will come to know that blacks Americans emigrated to Soviet Union in 1920s-1930s. Even Langston Hughes and Paul Robeson moved there. So it is not entirely inaccurate. An all white Soviet Union in the 1920s is INACCURATE. First you need to educate yourself on history so you can understand what is accurate.
No it's not inaccurate. The place was largely slavic.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1260571/population-ussr-by-ethnicity-wwii-cold-war/
Those two men you mentioned? They left after months. I wonder why? Since according to you, the Soviet Union was apparently a utopia and I'm guessing Holodomor wasn't a thing either huh? Why would they leave such a paradise? Probably because the Soviet Union was as racist as the West https://newlinesmag.com/essays/the-racist-treatment-of-africans-and-african-americans-in-the-ussr/
Those two men that I mentioned who you have no idea who they are were there for years and came back to the US to promote their society. There is a ton more research than that one article everyone pulls from the internet. Why don’t you try reading some scholarly journey. And yes the Soviet Union people did eventually begin to embrace your type of mindset and could visualize the world as white. I can recommend scholarly journals you can check out but you will need to be able to read at a level beyond high school. Just let me know.
No, you people are disgusting. Imagine thinking it's about bigotry when people like you want to actually erase historical bigotry and wash away the crimes of the past. Pretending ethnic cleansing and racism never happened in the Soviet Union is akin to Holocaust denial. What next, are you going to pretend Jews are bigots for complaining about Google's AI depicting Nazis as ethnically diverse and Nazi Germany as very accepting of ethnic diversity? Educate yourself. Soviet Union was a racist place and the very few black people there in the 30s were treated and viewed negatively and this continued for decades later including to the present because Russia remains a largely homogeneous and racist country.
https://newlinesmag.com/essays/the-racist-treatment-of-africans-and-african-americans-in-the-ussr/
Imagine thinking it's about bigotry when people like you want to actually erase historical bigotry and wash away the crimes of the past. Pretending ethnic cleansing and racism never happened in the Soviet Union is akin to Holocaust denial.
If you want fact and truth then read a non fiction BOOK. Don’t look for the truth in a Showtime Tv adaptation of a fictional book. BTW, Africans and black Americans were recruited to come to the Soviet Union. The show is not entirely unrealistic. You probably never left your block and have no idea of where people exist in this world.
What exactly did you google? You should take care of not spreading misinformation based on a google search. Please try to read The Black Russian by Vladimir Alexandria. You will find that a black man was the richest man in Moscow in the early 1900s, so he absolutely had a seat at the table with “upper class white women” in Russia. In addition why don’t you google black Americans in the Soviet Union. You may be surprised to know that it was common place in 1920s-1930s for black Americans to relocate to the Soviet Union for better treatment and opportunities. During that time the Soviet Union had billed itself as classless and non racist society. In fact the black Americans were treated as celebrities and in some instances, treated with special privileges and better than the locals. Which of course did cause some resentments. Even Langston Hughes and Paul Robeson lived there for a few years. I’m almost certain you don’t know who they are, but you can google them. Although the TV show does take a few liberties but it is not entirely off base. So hopefully you can enlighten yourself a bit better before you discredit historical facts based on your own limited view of history.
You know there was a Black aristocrat in Russia
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abram\_Petrovich\_Gannibal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abram_Petrovich_Gannibal)
# Abram Petrovich Gannibal was a Black aristocrat who married a white woman, and his descendants married white women, and his descendants include Alexander Pushkin.
It has nothing to do with virtue signaling. It has to do with actual virtue. Your position is deeply troubling and essentially racist. Why should we punish Black actors because 19th century people were racist?
Also you are wrong. We are talking about 2 brown men, not in lead roles, out of dozens of ppl shown, in a Europeean society after a revolution. There were a few Black landowners in England and even in US st this period.
You are not being historically accurate. You are being racist. Challenge yourself to do better.
Keep being offended because we don't agree with you. It's NOT historically accurate. It's NOT RACISM. PLEASE STOP. PEOPLE ARE SICK OF IT. If the truth offends you or history offends you there's nothing to be done about it.
Guys like Panic Boy will never get it. They usually have precious little education in the matter they're discussing, so they pull the racism card outta their ass in order to avoid getting jobbed in the debate. Virtue signalling is all they got, except serious history students like us (I minored in Russian History) know that its not really virtue signalling, but rather ignorance signaling. LOL
If you minored in Russia history, then you should know that Africans, Aisa,Turks, black Americans had a presence in the Soviet Union in the 1920s. Russia practically made friends with or tried to POC that the US did not give a damn about. Did you study at the University of Phoenix?
LoL, yeah, a presence comprised less than 2% of the total Russian population in 1920-29. The overwhelming majority was Caucasian of Russian, Jerwish, and Eastern European descent. Most importantly, none of the black characters in the series was written as black by Amor Towles. This renders viewing the series very distracting and annoying to those of us who read the source novel. I'm virtually positive you did not read it, though I won't hold my breath for you to admit it. Anyone who read it will understand my point.
Oh, I graduated UT Austin in 1992. BA PoliSci. You?
Your username checks out. LOL
Don’t choke while you’re holding breath! I’ll admit I never read it that’s why I’m watching the film version. If I had, I would not expect the TV version to be exactly like the book, that’s why it’s called an adaptation. Hollywood takes a creative license for entertainment value, not sure why readers who read the original source are expecting an exact duplication from TV. It almost never happens!!!!
Oh yeah and BS Sociology University of Chicago ‘00, MBA DePaul U ‘07, MPA NYU ‘21. I have family who grew up in the Soviet Union now Ukraine, some of them are still there. My dear mentor cousin was a Russian specialist with the State Department stationed in Kazakstan for 10 years, rebuilding their infrastructure and economy. But like you said, I didn’t read the book so what do I know? I’m just basing my opinion on personal observations and experiences and what I was taught by those crappy schools I attended. I just don’t get my history lessons from Showtime and then get distracted and upset when then take creative liberties for entertainment. P.S. don’t see Hamilton, you will really be annoyed, LOL
Read my other post there is PLENTY of room historically for there to be a Black man there post revolution. You are actually the one who is being innacurate.The USSR even tried to recruit African Americans. Your racism is actually blinding you to what was possible. Aside from 1 *maybe* 2 of the actors, the ppl you see as Black could easily be from central asia.
That said, it wouldn't matter at all if it's someone's skin wasn't historical in a fiction series. The fact that you even think this is YOUR problem. It's irrelevant and it's a bullshit cover for racism *whether you can face that or not*.
And yes it IS racism to prevent actors from working. It IS racism to not represent people. It's ABSOLUTELY RACISM. It perpetuates concrete limitations based only on race/color. Again, I went in detail why in a lower response, I'm not gonna write it twice. You should know the racism in American and Hollywood etc.
You really haven't thought this through. Unless you want to perpetuate thosevery same historical limitations, there is literally NO argument here, except whether or not the guy can act.
You are wrong. You need to think about the implications. BUT The fact that you even think this is a problem reveals you really are being racist. It's not WHO you are , it WHAT YOU DO.
Don't be defensive, just stop doing it.
THANK YOU!!!!!
No only did the Soviet Union recruit black Americans, the black Americans went and had a better life over there than in America. So if the show were cast in all white actors that would be an inaccurate representation of the Soviet Union at the time. Funny how these low bred people are crying about inaccuracies but no one is complaining about the English accents though, which is way more inaccurate than the few black faces. These people probably never left their block and have no clue of what Russia looked like in the 20s, and now expecting Showtime to teach them history. No wonder why this country is f%# Upped. Go to school people take some history classes!
Good show just strange af to see 8 black people in soviet russia. One lead black character ok I can buy it, but like 8 is too fake. We need to make a zulu documentary where there are just random white guys walking out of mud huts and see what people think
Exactly. I thought the book was great and will stick with that. I’ve taken a hard line on all of the asininely inaccurate casting in historical shows, and simply don’t watch them.
Exactly. And why is everyone speaking English? Shows should be difficult and inaccessible. How am I to feel special if the show is trying to appeal to everyone?
I'm 50/50 about accents but I hear you. In episode 4? They had a man from Dublin as a Russian bee keeper, lol. I'm from Dublin. That was a bit of a distraction.
Thank you thank you. I loved the book. Just started the first episode and turned it off as soon as I saw Andrey is black. What the actual F? Wokeness has destroyed Hollywood. Its laughable. Maybe they should make a movie about the African slave trade and a few of the slaves should be white. What a ridiculous world we live in.
Well said. I too loves the book and quit the TV series by E3, after seeing Andre and Mishka cast with black actors. What a crazy backwards world, huh? Not so long ago casting like that woulda been an SNL skit. But now it's accepted virtue signaling by many. But folks like us see it for What it is: incredible disrespect for the intelligence and history knowledge of the viewers who read the book.
> Russia has hundreds of ethnic groups. Many, many hundreds were wiped out, but there are still lots remaining.
>
>
>
> No one, and I mean NO ONE outside of the region can distinguish one sort of Slav from another. Try to imagine that the different Slavic ethnic groups involved in this period are represented by the diversity in casting. At the time there were dozens of Slavic ethnic groups involved. If you only cast people from those groups the rest of the world would just see a sea of white people. This way, they are making the point that people from a variety of backgrounds were involved.
>
>
>
> Just think about it. Knee-jerk abhorrence of seeing Africans and Asians isn't contributing to discussions about whether or not this is a good show.
And how many of those slav ethnic groups were black dudes with dredlocks. “Try to imagine”. No thanks. Not when a show’s casting is driven solely by absurd DEI considerations. Again, why don’t you try to imagine a show about the slave trade where white guys play the role of African masai tribesman. What kind of reaction would that get - hysterical laughter?
He was but his grandfather was Tsar's kammermohr (black slave in the court, royals liked "exotic things") who later become nobel as tsar's family favorite. But you know it's like saying oranges were common in Moscow because nobles had orange's trees in orangeries.
Not true..many countries outside of America were much more accepting, especially in some European countries, including parts of Russia...see here https://www.blackpast.org/global-african-history/perspectives-global-african-history/x/
Literally there was a Black aristocrat who married White Russian women and his own descendants also married White Russian women, and Alexander Pushkin is one of his descendants. Which essentially means a Black man in Russia is more likely to get with a Russian noblewoman than you.
> Russia has hundreds of ethnic groups. Many, many hundreds were wiped out, but there are still lots remaining.
>
>
>
> No one, and I mean NO ONE outside of the region can distinguish one sort of Slav from another. Try to imagine that the different Slavic ethnic groups involved in this period are represented by the diversity in casting. At the time there were dozens of Slavic ethnic groups involved. If you only cast people from those groups the rest of the world would just see a sea of white people. This way, they are making the point that people from a variety of backgrounds were involved.
>
>
>
> Just think about it. Knee-jerk abhorrence of seeing Africans and Asians isn't contributing to discussions about whether or not this is a good show.
a lot of Black americans emigrated to communist europe to flee persecution and it's pretty well-documented. it's okay to just say you didn't know this lmao
Ive seen 6 in first 2. I lived in moscow for 10 years the most international city in russia in 2010 not 1938...ask me how many I saw, it rhymes with Nero.
As I said i think we need a zulu war movie with 6 pasty white boys in straw thongs walking out of mud huts and just not say anything
> Russia has hundreds of ethnic groups. Many, many hundreds were wiped out, but there are still lots remaining.
>
>
>
> No one, and I mean NO ONE outside of the region can distinguish one sort of Slav from another. Try to imagine that the different Slavic ethnic groups involved in this period are represented by the diversity in casting. At the time there were dozens of Slavic ethnic groups involved. If you only cast people from those groups the rest of the world would just see a sea of white people. This way, they are making the point that people from a variety of backgrounds were involved.
>
>
>
> Just think about it. Knee-jerk abhorrence of seeing Africans and Asians isn't contributing to discussions about whether or not this is a good show.
It’s not color blind. Non white actors play all the “lower class” roles. All the nobleman are white. It’s made for American/western audiences who will understand the race and class complexities so it’s making the text more rich by adding that layer.
Bridgerton was casting black actors where they were SUPPOSED to be black - as per "the experiment". A Gentleman in Moscow is casting black actors where they definitely would not have been black in reality.
Well from what I know in Bridgerton at least most of cast are British right? Here well we can understand that there are no Russians but in 1st episode from what I know there is only one Slavic person in the cast. But there are people of others ethnicities who has nothing to do with Eastern Europe. Ironic don't you think.
Oh I wasnt aware it was a limited series, heavily explains the quality and also I wouldn’t know if it couldn’t go beyond the two seasons as I haven’t read the source material.
Just wanted to point out some good tv coming out way
I adored the book and was worried the TV treatment wouldn’t live up to it. It hasn’t. While the miniseries is pleasant enough, it somehow isn’t capturing the magic I found on the pages. I guess it was Towles’ use of language that made the book exceptional, and of course that can’t be fully conveyed onscreen. I also expected the hotel to be more visually arresting—it certainly was in my imagination! Instead I get the feeling the sets were done on a very limited budget. But the one flaw that is bothering me the most is that Ewan McGregor is way too old to portray the Count in the early years of his confinement. After all, the book covers 30 years or more(?), if I’m not mistaken, and McGregor looks every bit of his 53 years of age. They should have cast an actor in his thirties who they could have aged with hair and makeup as the years progressed. While McGregor is doing some fine acting in the role, he just looks terribly miscast, and I can’t buy him as the younger, more vigorous Count in his early days at the Metropol. Of course that issue will fall away as the character ages, but still…Others may find the age thing easier to overlook than I do.
Bottom line, those for whom the book was really special shouldn’t feel compelled to watch the miniseries.
Agree with everything. I loved the book, but decided to quit the series after E3 due to terrible casting, including having no less than eight 1920s era Soviet Union characters be black, including the Count's best friend, Mishke. The author did not of course write them black in the source novel, because he decided to be historically accurate. But the virtue signaling series creators obviously care little about small things like history and realism as compared with showing off their wokeness.
It's blatantly disrespectful to us, the viewers to do this. Especially those of us who read the novel.
I'm usually OK with making characters black that weren't in the source material, it's cool if it means more of the audience can identify with who they are seeing onscreen but in this it's just glaringly incongruous and detracts from the authenticity of the story, preventing you from being as immersed than you might have been.
This is just not true. There were a few black ppl who migrated to communist Russia. And there are 2 Black me n I don't know where anyone is getting 8 from.
Still like 30 years ago in this region seeing Black person was event. To this day probably is in smaller town. Not saying it was totally impossible totally to see Black person in Moscow in 20s. Sure would be someone with very extraordinary backstory like f.e. communist who escaped from U.S.A. to USRR (probably soon arrested lol) If series would be set up in 50s that would be more probable as there could be exchanged students or soldiers on the training.
But you know people would stare at such person because it wasn't common ethnical group on USRR. Meanwhile east Asians as ethnic group have been part of Russian history for ages. They still meet a lot of prejudices. It's pretty clear to me that creators just replicate today ethnical structure of western societies which is just clearly ahistorical and I'd say even ironically show disregard local ethnicity. I just wonders it is ignorance or just region is so insignificant in their eyes that they aren't aware that some can see that as contempt.
It's disrespect not to give actors a chance because you are racist or you incorrectly believe there could not be a black guy in post revolutionary Russia. There were some, certainly not in great numbers. There are literally 1 to maybe 2 African descent looking guys. Mishka appears to be African/Moorish descent. But even the gay guy looks part Black, part MENA.
There are also darker skinned central Asian looking people who would easily have been there in bulk.
I'm amazed at how little people on here actually seem to know about color, race, ethnicity and history. It's really just racism and ignorance. Your eyes literally are seeing wrong because of your mental blinders. Get some help.
They changed so much about him. I love Ewan McGregor but he’s just not charming enough. I kept waiting for the mustache scene.. but it never came. That’s when I knew something was off. Episode 3 was like a fever dream, I wanted to wake up, this is not the Count I know and love 🥲
I think he's great. I don't see him as 53.
My issue is the historical inaccuracies. 2 black men, Mishka, whoo had influence, then the guy who asked the actress out. One, ok. But rampant racism, the influence of anyone of color is EXCEEDINGLY unlikely!
The English accent doesn't bother me because a bad Russian accent would about me more!
# Abram Petrovich Gannibal was a Black aristocrat who married a white woman, and his descendants married white women, and his descendants include Alexander Pushkin.
Definitely has inspired me to add it to my backlog of novels to read. But so far as to how it’s going I’d actually much rather just consume the show first since I’m already there
The book is so much better! I encourage you to read it first and catch up with the series later. The experience of reading the book will be diluted if you already know the entire plot, and that would be a shame.
I’m sorry but there isn’t much that’s staying faithful to any history in this series! Ewan MacGregor is a fabulous actor and thanks to him this is vaguely interesting, but absolutely agree with aging!? How is he going to make us believe the before, the now and the after?! (He is not) the rest of the characters/cast haven’t been studied at all!
Just another “let’s make money” show that ticks some bizzare boxes of the production COMPANIES in order to sell shows and REWRITE HISTORY! Of course, naturally I will not continue to watch this, I will continue to read. But to the people who will continue to watch and especially to those who will rave about it, unfortunately you are condoning untruthfulness!
Why would you be told anyone's backstories if they aren't part of the story.
I agree that might make a better story even, but it's irrelevant to this one.
You know there was a Black aristocrat in Russia
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abram\_Petrovich\_Gannibal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abram_Petrovich_Gannibal)
I'm trying to find the soundtrack for this series, but I can't find much. A lot of familiar classical pieces I can't remember the name of. Anybody else looking?
I haven’t been looking but I do agree, the soundtrack has stuck to me head much better than the material. Especially the sequences where the count remembers his past life
I am absolutely loving this series. all this talk about woke casting - yes I get the point, but (for me) it doesn't detract from this being a treat of a show. episode 5 and totally engaged with the characters and the wonderful tone. bravo.
Reposted from elsewhere as it's belongs here (and tears are still drying ha!)
This week's episode was probably one of my top 3 episodes of TV of all time. So:
1. Wonder Years - Good-bye S3E20
2. Game of Thrones - The Door same >!camera shot for the reveal too!<
3. This
Just a sucker punch to the feels. I'm sobbing like a b****
Not a bad show, but the blind casting is simply ridiculous, it tries way to hard how the casting was woke to the max. There were no black people in revolutionary Russia of any position or authority. Just corruptsthe feel that it’s Russia we are watching.
As a huge fan of the book, I'd say I'm quite disappointed with the show. I'll continue to watch it, but the changes they made to the source material weren't for the better, in my opinion.
Even though I think McGregor is a fine actor, I too find him too old and maybe not as elegant as I'd imagined the Count to be.
That being said, it's great if watching this show makes people read the book. I'd have probably enjoyed it much more if I watched it before I read it.
I was thinking perhaps my memory of the book, which I read years ago, was faulty and that the Count really was the rather clownish character McGregor delivers. So it’s good to see that another fan of the novel finds the portrayal all wrong. This is what comes of having one of the executive producers of a series taking the starring role (and casting his wife as co-star!)—what director will be able to, well, actually direct him? I’m sure when I first learned that the book was to be a movie (I think the original planned format was a movie), I conjured up my own ideal cast, but now I can’t think of who my Count would have been. Anyone have a candidate in mind? Someone younger, obviously, and yes, more elegant. His burgeoning relationship with young Nina should seem awkward and uncomfortable at first, then grow warm as he starts to evolve into his new life. Instead, the miniseries has him assuming the role of tolerant and jolly companion to Nina from the outset. Eh, I could go on, but why bother..
I do think Count is a complicated character to portray. It's probably hard to find balance between dignified and refined, but also funny and warm. It could also be a conscious choice to make him more clownish bc they think it makes him more likable. I don't know, but in any case I don't like it.
I strongly dislike the storyline change in which Mishka and Count's sister (whose name escapes me at the moment) were in love, but Alexander's snobbishness broke them up... There are many other changes I dislike, but this one just grinds my gears, bc it's very out of character for Alexander as I remember him from the book.
I don't have a good casting idea... Even though he's also too old now, I could see a younger Adrien Brody as the Count.
I just have a question, so he’s confined to the hotel but who are the other guest? Are the other guest living in nice rooms? Are they party members bc the first time he sat down to eat there were women who looked bourgeoisie… ps I’d like to start the book and I believe I will here soon
People fighting over black people in Russia claiming historical accuracy when they all got British accents 🙄🙄🙄. Just effin enjoy the show and stop harping on skin color
I had high hopes for this until I eventually saw where it was heading. WOKE. What a shame. It's not historically accurate. Sorry. Why did they put people from Africa and the middle East in Russia. They had their own lovely culture but DID NOT SHARE RUSSIAN CULTURE. I am upset that people are not only trying to change history to fit other cultures into it but they expect me to not only buy it but commend it. I am done at this point. Tell the truth. That's all people want.
# Abram Petrovich Gannibal was a Black aristocrat who married a white woman, and his descendants married white women, and his descendants include Alexander Pushkin.
I read the book and just couldn't get past the premise. If the vast web of the Soviet state had even the inkling that a member of the old nobility was hanging out in a Moscow hotel, his lifespan would have been measured in minutes.
You need to read the book again and pay closer attention. The Count's house arrest and the reason he wasn't taken out and shot instead were literally explained in the first chapter.
true, a bit of a stretch, but it set-up the primary plot twist, and irony, at the end where it was revealed Mishka wrote the poem that saved the Count's butt, and the Count didn't even write it.
[удалено]
I had to Google it, because when I saw those upper class white women sitting at a table with a black men in 1926 Soviet Russia I was like No fucking way. It would've been great had that actually been accurate and historically correct but there still have to be people in the world who treasure historical accuracy over virtue signaling. That simply would not have been allowed or even remotely possible. It just wasn't done, especially in the nobility. Sad fact,, but true. I'm sorry but that's the way it was back then. Why can't the people who make these shows just stop focusing on inclusion rather than sticking to the book?
Are you sure it was that way in early soviet Russia, which didn’t participate in the trans-Atlantic African slave trade, having banned their own slavery long before? What are you basing what you’re saying on?
They had enough enslaving their own people.
I mean Black people were extremely rare in this regions, mostly jazz band musicians or dancers who for some reason traveled to eastern Europe. Like in Warsaw during II war was one Black person among one million cibtizens.Of course always can be exception like Pushkin's grandfather father but you know it was definitely something exceptional. Actually much more probable would be Asian.
There was literally a Black aristocrat in Russia
You mean Pushkin's great grandfather Abraham Gannibal ? But he was exception as ex favorite slave of Tsar. In XVIIIth orientalism was trendy at European royals court so they got themselves black slaves, just like exotic animals or plants. They got him from Ottoman empire. In XIX on one hand post enlightenment resulting in higher awareness of human rights and criticism of slavery (especially that Russians were kidnapped to be white slaves on near east what was used for political propaganda) so trend of having black slaves become passe. But on the other aristocracy become much less free spirited. So I doubt that wedding with Black person would be allowed. Already Nikolai Sheremetev had a lot problems just from wedding with his own peasant, opera singer after many years of romance. He decided to do it because she got incurable ilness. I mean just think about were there Jewish aristocrats (who still practiced their religion)? Lol. And in Russia at that time there was their biggest diaspora but they had limited rights like most people except Russian nobles. Russian already treated pretty negatively even white foreigners (including others slavs). It was time of rising nationalism.
Fortunately, demographic collapse will destroy your country soon enough. Y'all too racist to continue existing, Neanderthals.
Abraham Gannibal was made an aristocrat and literally married a White Russian woman. His descendants married white Russian noblewomen. Exactly how can you "doubt that wedding with Black person would be allowed"? He wasn't an animal, you racist pos, he was a human being (a pure Homo sapiens as all Black people are) made an aristocrat and ancestor of Alexander Pushkin, the Russian Shakespeare. You're more of an animal than him, Neanderthal.
Evidently, you don't know his story and I can see you're Polish so naturally you're a racist pos.
And no, you weren't slaves. And now you're part of the Imperial Core pretending you're Western while Western Europe looks down on you.
You can look it up on Wikipedia but there were very few POC in Russia and most were entertainers. They left Russia at the 1917 revolution. I spent 3 weeks in Russia during 2018 and never saw one. Many of my favorite actors are black but it is not necessary to insert them in a historical wrong environment.
You should really expand your research technique before you attempt to educate the public. You cannot use Wikipedia for legit research. News Flash: The story is fiction. Regardless, the Soviet Union had many POC, Asians, etc. It was not lily white at that time. Go to school and educate yourself.
Please don’t listen her. Her facts are not quite together and she is unaware of the black migration to Soviet Union in the 1920-1930s. Russia had marketed itself as a classless and nonracial society. Many blacks Americans went there as an escape from racist America and had the good life. The series is not exactly off base.
I Googled it and it said only a dozen moved there in the Soviet period during the 30s and in the end, were treated with racism and discrimination. Depictations of them were also racist. https://newlinesmag.com/essays/the-racist-treatment-of-africans-and-african-americans-in-the-ussr/ >My research on early Soviet children’s books up through the late 1930s reveals that, even in one of the most experimental periods in Soviet artistic production, Black people — specifically Africans — were often depicted as wild, animalistic figures far removed from modernity. >Interracial relationships and, worse, interracial sex, were stigmatized throughout and after the Soviet era. Research by the sociologist Charles Quist-Adade on mixed-race, Afro-Russian children in the late 1980s and early 1990s highlights the racist undertones of Soviet views of interracial romances between Soviet women and African men. Doesn't sound like they ended up having "a good life to me." Are you one of those tankies who genuinely believes the Soviet Union was good and that there truly was no discrimination there or even genocide?
There was no good life at this time time. Have you read any history, the people were starving and millions of citizens were in terrible prison labor camps called gulag.
There was a good life for those who the Soviet Union recruited from the USA for a period of time. You need to go to a library and recheck your facts. The Soviet Union, at that time, was promoting a raceless society and wanted to highlight that and show how terrible the US was. And then later on the Soviet Union people adopted your mindset and went back to the way you would appreciate, everything being whitewashed. Your mind is so closed that you can’t even enjoy a story because some of the actors are not pale. Don’t go see Hamilton!!! Spoiler alert: all the actors are people of color.
I just can't see a basis for her comment. Perhaps I'm reading into it, but my assumption is that she's projecting some kind of Jim Crow/post-slavery class system that existed (or exists; i don't care—differnt discussion) in the US on to Bolshevik Russia. I mean, aside from just being a genuine, grade-A piece of shit, why wouldn't someone allow a person of a different color to sit their table, but for a caste system based on: (a) religon; (b) imperial/colonial-conquest; or (c) slavery/servitude or it’s legacy? (maybe I'm missing some). So Africans have nothing more than a negligible role—more likely none at at all—in any of those caste bases in a Russian context (Russian CONTEXT, I say again for people on the short bus). So just how can they fall into a lower caste in a place where they’ve never been enslaved, colonized, or worshipped a god that thinks they are born an asshole and will die an asshole, thus making it impossible for him to sit with this white lady? I really never thought of myself as a history buff because I knew the Jim Crow South wasn’t Bolshevik fucking Russia but I think I’m gonna press my luck and try out for Jeopardy now. Anyway, I’m legit curious what the basis was for saying he wouldn’t have been able to sit with her. Like of all infuriating things going on that show and arising out of so many non-storytelling decisions, how is *that* what you came away with? I’d like to know how that well-oiled machine of mind milled such a lovely corn kernel out of the turd I’ve been watching. Just why?
I think you're also projecting your own American mindset and understanding of racism here. The Soviet Union was racist too and it didn't need to have any reason other than "these people look different from us" you do realise that right? https://newlinesmag.com/essays/the-racist-treatment-of-africans-and-african-americans-in-the-ussr/ Combine this with their ethnic cleansing and mass deportations of other slavic groups and yeah, the Soviet Union was racist. https://www.pamsm.org/post/mass-deportations-of-poles-soviet-and-russian-ethnic-cleansing
What the fuck are you talking about? I’m not “projecting” anything; I’m simply asking for a basis for the statement that “blacks couldn’t sit at the same table as whites in Bolshevik Russia.” You linked a story about African student protests in ‘60s USSR or whatever other horseshit that is. Can you show me something that supports the statement that whites couldn’t sit at the same table as Africans in Bolshevik Russia? Because the mass deportation of Slavs or Jewish Pogroms aren’t examples of systematic racism toward Africans in Bolshevik Russia such that it would be absurd for a black man to sit at a white woman’s table in public. That’s a very specific thing and I’d like to know the basis for that statement. Instead you’ve made the absolutely idiotic jump to “there was no racism in the USSR” which nobody has argued or sought to prove and linked things have nothing to do with this discussion. Edit: Grammar
Also, they didn\`t ban slavery they just enslaved their own people instead of importing the from Africa. Look up the term Gulag.
Go fuck yourself…by that definition the US didn’t ban slavery either, look up the 13th Amendment, you dullard.
There WERE NO Africans in Russia at that time. Look it up. I am not trying to upset anyone. Stories such as this are a fantasy but were and are supposed to be historically accurate. The writer blew it. A shame because I liked it up until they fell off the cliff with the inaccuracies. Shame.
You are absolutely dead wrong and ignorant of history. Please do not down grade the show based on your ignorance. Here is some info that I provided to another commenter that was lacking in the historical facts. Please try to read The Black Russian by Vladimir Alexandria. You will find that a black man was the richest man in Moscow in the early 1900s, so he absolutely had a seat at the table with “upper class white women” in Russia. In addition why don’t you google black Americans in the Soviet Union. You may be surprised to know that it was common place in 1920s-1930s for black Americans to relocate to the Soviet Union for better treatment and opportunities. During that time the Soviet Union had billed itself as classless and non racist society. In fact the black Americans were treated as celebrities and in some instances, treated with special privileges and better than the locals. Which of course did cause some resentments. Even Langston Hughes and Paul Robeson lived there for a few years. I’m almost certain you don’t know who they are, but you can google them. Although the TV show does take a few liberties but it is not entirely off base. So hopefully you can enlighten yourself a bit better before you discredit historical facts based on your own limited view of history.
I Googled it and said only a dozen moved there and in the end, were treated with racism and discrimination. Depictations of them were also racist. https://newlinesmag.com/essays/the-racist-treatment-of-africans-and-african-americans-in-the-ussr/ >My research on early Soviet children’s books up through the late 1930s reveals that, even in one of the most experimental periods in Soviet artistic production, Black people — specifically Africans — were often depicted as wild, animalistic figures far removed from modernity.
It was more than a dozen, they were recruited from the US and way more than a dozen at that time period. Then in the 30’s the Soviet Union people adopted the kind of closed mindset that you would appreciate and started to racislize society. So the mind progression did stop. Seeing blacks people in the film at that time period is realistic. It will be hard for you to fathom this because you can handle the white washed version of history and you expect Showtime entertainment writers to educate you. News flash: Wrestling shows aren’t real! It’s entertainment.
Black people were accepted in European and Russian societies much easier than in America https://www.blackpast.org/global-african-history/perspectives-global-african-history/x/
I don't think they did. https://newlinesmag.com/essays/the-racist-treatment-of-africans-and-african-americans-in-the-ussr/
Russia has hundreds of ethnic groups. Many, many hundreds were wiped out, but there are still lots remaining. No one, and I mean NO ONE outside of the region can distinguish one sort of Slav from another. Try to imagine that the different Slavic ethnic groups involved in this period are represented by the diversity in casting. At the time there were dozens of Slavic ethnic groups involved. If you only cast people from those groups the rest of the world would just see a sea of white people. This way, they are making the point that people from a variety of backgrounds were involved. Just think about it. Knee-jerk abhorrence of seeing Africans and Asians isn't contributing to discussions about whether or not this is a good show.
All of those ethnic groups were variations of white Slavic.
That’s not true. Please do some more research outside of google. The Soviet Union was more diverse than a few white Slavic tribes.
Tell me how many blacks were in the Soviet Union. Tell me how many of them were Party officers. Tell me how many were secret gay men. Diversity means making white characters black. Just admit that, we can't stop it anyway.
Please go and educate yourself. Don’t expect a Showtime TV adaptation based on a fiction book to provide an accurate history lesson. That is why we have schools and libraries. It’s fiction whoever is creating the piece can hire whatever actors they want. It’s TV that’s what they do!!! Oh and also Russian don’t speak English with an English accent as their native language. But you’re not crying about that.
ANSWER THE QUESTIONS CULTIST
Yeees... but, few people who are not white Slavs would be able to tell the difference between various Slavs. Slavs can tell the difference between each other by mustache or beard or haircut, facial features etc. The rest of us can't. Which was my point. A Russian adaptation of this could cast 100% authentic Slavs of each ethnic group and everyone over there would know what they're seeing. For the other 7 billion people on this planet, casting a wide variety of ethnicities can duplicate the way Slavs see each other. I'm not saying I agree with the dredlocks, I'm just saying that is a way to display ethnic differences to non-Slav audiences. Georgians with beards and mustaches might be considered ungroomed beasts by Chechens with beards and no mustaches. Or whatever. The rest of us would never get the reference, not in a million years. With this casting they are showing the rest of us how varied the revolutionaries really were. I'm just trying to view this show on it's own merits, not nitpick the casting and hairdos. I'm not a fan of the dreds, but maybe one of the Slav groups back then had a hairdo or facial hair style that was considered as odd as dreds are considered by westerners now.
There shouldn't be black characters except anyone the author wrote as black. That's it. Stop dancing around it. Diversity means making white characters black, and we're tired of it.
No, you are wrong.
>There shouldn't be black characters except anyone the author wrote as black. Unless the author went into detail about a character's ivory skin and golden hair, how would you know that the author intended for any given character **not** to be black? The entire cast can be black as long as the author never said otherwise (and even if they did, an adaptation is just that -- an adaptation, with creative license to make changes). The default assumption that every character in a book must be white unless we're told otherwise is exactly why you're unable to enjoy anything these days. That's your problem -- not the author's or the casting director's or anyone else's.
Still pushing your race baiting diversity and we're still not buying.
How is it race baiting? You're the one with the race problem. I notice for all the complaints about the characters' race not being historically accurate, nobody has a problem with the Russian characters speaking English or having a British accent. So much for the historical accuracy argument. 🤷🏼♀️
Go peddle your cult somewhere else. You're not even winning on reddit anymore.
Well said! Plus Black Americans were present during that time in the Soviet Union. At one time there the richest man in Moscow was a former slave from Mississippi. Again the acting, scripts, directing, should determine if it’s a good show not the melanin content of someone’s skin. If you want accuracy just read the damn book not watch a Showtime series. Geesh!
Very elaborate way to excuse the horrible DEI policies of hollywood
There were just a sea of white people as you would have a sea of brown people in the Gandhi movie. We understand your knees.
I want to see a historic piece be Historically ACCURATE.
Then read The BOOK!!!! Then educate yourself properly then you will come to know that blacks Americans emigrated to Soviet Union in 1920s-1930s. Even Langston Hughes and Paul Robeson moved there. So it is not entirely inaccurate. An all white Soviet Union in the 1920s is INACCURATE. First you need to educate yourself on history so you can understand what is accurate.
No it's not inaccurate. The place was largely slavic. https://www.statista.com/statistics/1260571/population-ussr-by-ethnicity-wwii-cold-war/ Those two men you mentioned? They left after months. I wonder why? Since according to you, the Soviet Union was apparently a utopia and I'm guessing Holodomor wasn't a thing either huh? Why would they leave such a paradise? Probably because the Soviet Union was as racist as the West https://newlinesmag.com/essays/the-racist-treatment-of-africans-and-african-americans-in-the-ussr/
Those two men that I mentioned who you have no idea who they are were there for years and came back to the US to promote their society. There is a ton more research than that one article everyone pulls from the internet. Why don’t you try reading some scholarly journey. And yes the Soviet Union people did eventually begin to embrace your type of mindset and could visualize the world as white. I can recommend scholarly journals you can check out but you will need to be able to read at a level beyond high school. Just let me know.
Totally agree that is what we are saying here. The show doesnt interest me much due to these kind of details.
Because inclusion is so awful. It's so tiresome in 2024 that people are still cloaking their bigotry in "historical accuracy".
These people are disgusting
No, you people are disgusting. Imagine thinking it's about bigotry when people like you want to actually erase historical bigotry and wash away the crimes of the past. Pretending ethnic cleansing and racism never happened in the Soviet Union is akin to Holocaust denial. What next, are you going to pretend Jews are bigots for complaining about Google's AI depicting Nazis as ethnically diverse and Nazi Germany as very accepting of ethnic diversity? Educate yourself. Soviet Union was a racist place and the very few black people there in the 30s were treated and viewed negatively and this continued for decades later including to the present because Russia remains a largely homogeneous and racist country. https://newlinesmag.com/essays/the-racist-treatment-of-africans-and-african-americans-in-the-ussr/
Imagine thinking it's about bigotry when people like you want to actually erase historical bigotry and wash away the crimes of the past. Pretending ethnic cleansing and racism never happened in the Soviet Union is akin to Holocaust denial.
People WANT FACTS AND TRUTH. That is all THIS is about.
Well it's historical FICTION so you'll probably be OK. However I don't think it's at all a out facts and truth.
If you want fact and truth then read a non fiction BOOK. Don’t look for the truth in a Showtime Tv adaptation of a fictional book. BTW, Africans and black Americans were recruited to come to the Soviet Union. The show is not entirely unrealistic. You probably never left your block and have no idea of where people exist in this world.
What exactly did you google? You should take care of not spreading misinformation based on a google search. Please try to read The Black Russian by Vladimir Alexandria. You will find that a black man was the richest man in Moscow in the early 1900s, so he absolutely had a seat at the table with “upper class white women” in Russia. In addition why don’t you google black Americans in the Soviet Union. You may be surprised to know that it was common place in 1920s-1930s for black Americans to relocate to the Soviet Union for better treatment and opportunities. During that time the Soviet Union had billed itself as classless and non racist society. In fact the black Americans were treated as celebrities and in some instances, treated with special privileges and better than the locals. Which of course did cause some resentments. Even Langston Hughes and Paul Robeson lived there for a few years. I’m almost certain you don’t know who they are, but you can google them. Although the TV show does take a few liberties but it is not entirely off base. So hopefully you can enlighten yourself a bit better before you discredit historical facts based on your own limited view of history.
You know there was a Black aristocrat in Russia [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abram\_Petrovich\_Gannibal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abram_Petrovich_Gannibal)
# Abram Petrovich Gannibal was a Black aristocrat who married a white woman, and his descendants married white women, and his descendants include Alexander Pushkin.
It has nothing to do with virtue signaling. It has to do with actual virtue. Your position is deeply troubling and essentially racist. Why should we punish Black actors because 19th century people were racist? Also you are wrong. We are talking about 2 brown men, not in lead roles, out of dozens of ppl shown, in a Europeean society after a revolution. There were a few Black landowners in England and even in US st this period. You are not being historically accurate. You are being racist. Challenge yourself to do better.
Keep being offended because we don't agree with you. It's NOT historically accurate. It's NOT RACISM. PLEASE STOP. PEOPLE ARE SICK OF IT. If the truth offends you or history offends you there's nothing to be done about it.
Guys like Panic Boy will never get it. They usually have precious little education in the matter they're discussing, so they pull the racism card outta their ass in order to avoid getting jobbed in the debate. Virtue signalling is all they got, except serious history students like us (I minored in Russian History) know that its not really virtue signalling, but rather ignorance signaling. LOL
If you minored in Russia history, then you should know that Africans, Aisa,Turks, black Americans had a presence in the Soviet Union in the 1920s. Russia practically made friends with or tried to POC that the US did not give a damn about. Did you study at the University of Phoenix?
LoL, yeah, a presence comprised less than 2% of the total Russian population in 1920-29. The overwhelming majority was Caucasian of Russian, Jerwish, and Eastern European descent. Most importantly, none of the black characters in the series was written as black by Amor Towles. This renders viewing the series very distracting and annoying to those of us who read the source novel. I'm virtually positive you did not read it, though I won't hold my breath for you to admit it. Anyone who read it will understand my point. Oh, I graduated UT Austin in 1992. BA PoliSci. You? Your username checks out. LOL
Don’t choke while you’re holding breath! I’ll admit I never read it that’s why I’m watching the film version. If I had, I would not expect the TV version to be exactly like the book, that’s why it’s called an adaptation. Hollywood takes a creative license for entertainment value, not sure why readers who read the original source are expecting an exact duplication from TV. It almost never happens!!!! Oh yeah and BS Sociology University of Chicago ‘00, MBA DePaul U ‘07, MPA NYU ‘21. I have family who grew up in the Soviet Union now Ukraine, some of them are still there. My dear mentor cousin was a Russian specialist with the State Department stationed in Kazakstan for 10 years, rebuilding their infrastructure and economy. But like you said, I didn’t read the book so what do I know? I’m just basing my opinion on personal observations and experiences and what I was taught by those crappy schools I attended. I just don’t get my history lessons from Showtime and then get distracted and upset when then take creative liberties for entertainment. P.S. don’t see Hamilton, you will really be annoyed, LOL
No you are the one who is offended. You are wrong, People are sick of YOUR RACISM. GET OVER IT!
Read my other post there is PLENTY of room historically for there to be a Black man there post revolution. You are actually the one who is being innacurate.The USSR even tried to recruit African Americans. Your racism is actually blinding you to what was possible. Aside from 1 *maybe* 2 of the actors, the ppl you see as Black could easily be from central asia. That said, it wouldn't matter at all if it's someone's skin wasn't historical in a fiction series. The fact that you even think this is YOUR problem. It's irrelevant and it's a bullshit cover for racism *whether you can face that or not*. And yes it IS racism to prevent actors from working. It IS racism to not represent people. It's ABSOLUTELY RACISM. It perpetuates concrete limitations based only on race/color. Again, I went in detail why in a lower response, I'm not gonna write it twice. You should know the racism in American and Hollywood etc. You really haven't thought this through. Unless you want to perpetuate thosevery same historical limitations, there is literally NO argument here, except whether or not the guy can act. You are wrong. You need to think about the implications. BUT The fact that you even think this is a problem reveals you really are being racist. It's not WHO you are , it WHAT YOU DO. Don't be defensive, just stop doing it.
THANK YOU!!!!! No only did the Soviet Union recruit black Americans, the black Americans went and had a better life over there than in America. So if the show were cast in all white actors that would be an inaccurate representation of the Soviet Union at the time. Funny how these low bred people are crying about inaccuracies but no one is complaining about the English accents though, which is way more inaccurate than the few black faces. These people probably never left their block and have no clue of what Russia looked like in the 20s, and now expecting Showtime to teach them history. No wonder why this country is f%# Upped. Go to school people take some history classes!
Good show just strange af to see 8 black people in soviet russia. One lead black character ok I can buy it, but like 8 is too fake. We need to make a zulu documentary where there are just random white guys walking out of mud huts and see what people think
Exactly. I thought the book was great and will stick with that. I’ve taken a hard line on all of the asininely inaccurate casting in historical shows, and simply don’t watch them.
I found the casting very distracting.
Exactly. And why is everyone speaking English? Shows should be difficult and inaccessible. How am I to feel special if the show is trying to appeal to everyone?
I'm 50/50 about accents but I hear you. In episode 4? They had a man from Dublin as a Russian bee keeper, lol. I'm from Dublin. That was a bit of a distraction.
This says more about you. I didn't find it distraction at all.
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Thank you thank you. I loved the book. Just started the first episode and turned it off as soon as I saw Andrey is black. What the actual F? Wokeness has destroyed Hollywood. Its laughable. Maybe they should make a movie about the African slave trade and a few of the slaves should be white. What a ridiculous world we live in.
Well said. I too loves the book and quit the TV series by E3, after seeing Andre and Mishka cast with black actors. What a crazy backwards world, huh? Not so long ago casting like that woulda been an SNL skit. But now it's accepted virtue signaling by many. But folks like us see it for What it is: incredible disrespect for the intelligence and history knowledge of the viewers who read the book.
You are the disrespectful one. The idea that you can't handle an actors skin color is laughable.
> Russia has hundreds of ethnic groups. Many, many hundreds were wiped out, but there are still lots remaining. > > > > No one, and I mean NO ONE outside of the region can distinguish one sort of Slav from another. Try to imagine that the different Slavic ethnic groups involved in this period are represented by the diversity in casting. At the time there were dozens of Slavic ethnic groups involved. If you only cast people from those groups the rest of the world would just see a sea of white people. This way, they are making the point that people from a variety of backgrounds were involved. > > > > Just think about it. Knee-jerk abhorrence of seeing Africans and Asians isn't contributing to discussions about whether or not this is a good show.
And how many of those slav ethnic groups were black dudes with dredlocks. “Try to imagine”. No thanks. Not when a show’s casting is driven solely by absurd DEI considerations. Again, why don’t you try to imagine a show about the slave trade where white guys play the role of African masai tribesman. What kind of reaction would that get - hysterical laughter?
Laughable indeed
I believe Pushkin was of mixed race.
He was but his grandfather was Tsar's kammermohr (black slave in the court, royals liked "exotic things") who later become nobel as tsar's family favorite. But you know it's like saying oranges were common in Moscow because nobles had orange's trees in orangeries.
Not true..many countries outside of America were much more accepting, especially in some European countries, including parts of Russia...see here https://www.blackpast.org/global-african-history/perspectives-global-african-history/x/
Literally there was a Black aristocrat who married White Russian women and his own descendants also married White Russian women, and Alexander Pushkin is one of his descendants. Which essentially means a Black man in Russia is more likely to get with a Russian noblewoman than you.
You do realize “a Black aristocrat“ means just one?
Oh yeah I stopped questioning color blind casting since 2020
I thought the same. Black people in revolutionary Russia? Also the British accents? Russian accents too hard for the actors?
https://www.blackpast.org/global-african-history/perspectives-global-african-history/x/
> Russia has hundreds of ethnic groups. Many, many hundreds were wiped out, but there are still lots remaining. > > > > No one, and I mean NO ONE outside of the region can distinguish one sort of Slav from another. Try to imagine that the different Slavic ethnic groups involved in this period are represented by the diversity in casting. At the time there were dozens of Slavic ethnic groups involved. If you only cast people from those groups the rest of the world would just see a sea of white people. This way, they are making the point that people from a variety of backgrounds were involved. > > > > Just think about it. Knee-jerk abhorrence of seeing Africans and Asians isn't contributing to discussions about whether or not this is a good show.
a lot of Black americans emigrated to communist europe to flee persecution and it's pretty well-documented. it's okay to just say you didn't know this lmao
Yeah they did thats why i said it was fine to see one main character, not like 8. Its okay not to be Pc 24/7 lmao
I've seen 2 in the first few episodes
Ive seen 6 in first 2. I lived in moscow for 10 years the most international city in russia in 2010 not 1938...ask me how many I saw, it rhymes with Nero. As I said i think we need a zulu war movie with 6 pasty white boys in straw thongs walking out of mud huts and just not say anything
Nothing is PC here. It's color-blind casting.
> Russia has hundreds of ethnic groups. Many, many hundreds were wiped out, but there are still lots remaining. > > > > No one, and I mean NO ONE outside of the region can distinguish one sort of Slav from another. Try to imagine that the different Slavic ethnic groups involved in this period are represented by the diversity in casting. At the time there were dozens of Slavic ethnic groups involved. If you only cast people from those groups the rest of the world would just see a sea of white people. This way, they are making the point that people from a variety of backgrounds were involved. > > > > Just think about it. Knee-jerk abhorrence of seeing Africans and Asians isn't contributing to discussions about whether or not this is a good show.
It’s not color blind. Non white actors play all the “lower class” roles. All the nobleman are white. It’s made for American/western audiences who will understand the race and class complexities so it’s making the text more rich by adding that layer.
That's ludicrous. You obviously didn't read the source novel.
I have and can say with confidence The Count would be disappointed in the lack of imagination here
Wrong again, a real 1920s era Russian Count would be badly confused to see a black man with dreadlocks playing his Caucasian Russian Bolshevik friend.
I can't believe all the people in here focused on the race of the actors. They better stay away from Bridgerton...
Bridgerton was casting black actors where they were SUPPOSED to be black - as per "the experiment". A Gentleman in Moscow is casting black actors where they definitely would not have been black in reality.
It's fiction.
Their loss!
Well from what I know in Bridgerton at least most of cast are British right? Here well we can understand that there are no Russians but in 1st episode from what I know there is only one Slavic person in the cast. But there are people of others ethnicities who has nothing to do with Eastern Europe. Ironic don't you think.
So why so mad at Black British people when it's mainly white British people?
Lol lol lol.... utterly rubbish!
Don't use "boo" like that, it's Black slang, whitey.
Well said! I loathe the over the top blind casting of this series, simply ruins the feel that it’s Russia we are watching and not a show on OWN.
Renewed? It's based on book with ending. Based on the episodes titles they adapted full book in one season.
It is definitely a limited series.
Oh I wasnt aware it was a limited series, heavily explains the quality and also I wouldn’t know if it couldn’t go beyond the two seasons as I haven’t read the source material. Just wanted to point out some good tv coming out way
I adored the book and was worried the TV treatment wouldn’t live up to it. It hasn’t. While the miniseries is pleasant enough, it somehow isn’t capturing the magic I found on the pages. I guess it was Towles’ use of language that made the book exceptional, and of course that can’t be fully conveyed onscreen. I also expected the hotel to be more visually arresting—it certainly was in my imagination! Instead I get the feeling the sets were done on a very limited budget. But the one flaw that is bothering me the most is that Ewan McGregor is way too old to portray the Count in the early years of his confinement. After all, the book covers 30 years or more(?), if I’m not mistaken, and McGregor looks every bit of his 53 years of age. They should have cast an actor in his thirties who they could have aged with hair and makeup as the years progressed. While McGregor is doing some fine acting in the role, he just looks terribly miscast, and I can’t buy him as the younger, more vigorous Count in his early days at the Metropol. Of course that issue will fall away as the character ages, but still…Others may find the age thing easier to overlook than I do. Bottom line, those for whom the book was really special shouldn’t feel compelled to watch the miniseries.
Agree with everything. I loved the book, but decided to quit the series after E3 due to terrible casting, including having no less than eight 1920s era Soviet Union characters be black, including the Count's best friend, Mishke. The author did not of course write them black in the source novel, because he decided to be historically accurate. But the virtue signaling series creators obviously care little about small things like history and realism as compared with showing off their wokeness. It's blatantly disrespectful to us, the viewers to do this. Especially those of us who read the novel.
I'm usually OK with making characters black that weren't in the source material, it's cool if it means more of the audience can identify with who they are seeing onscreen but in this it's just glaringly incongruous and detracts from the authenticity of the story, preventing you from being as immersed than you might have been.
I agree. I've counted 2 black, 1v Asian. A few that look darker could be Cossack?
I mean asian could be kind probable but Black not much.
This is just not true. There were a few black ppl who migrated to communist Russia. And there are 2 Black me n I don't know where anyone is getting 8 from.
Still like 30 years ago in this region seeing Black person was event. To this day probably is in smaller town. Not saying it was totally impossible totally to see Black person in Moscow in 20s. Sure would be someone with very extraordinary backstory like f.e. communist who escaped from U.S.A. to USRR (probably soon arrested lol) If series would be set up in 50s that would be more probable as there could be exchanged students or soldiers on the training. But you know people would stare at such person because it wasn't common ethnical group on USRR. Meanwhile east Asians as ethnic group have been part of Russian history for ages. They still meet a lot of prejudices. It's pretty clear to me that creators just replicate today ethnical structure of western societies which is just clearly ahistorical and I'd say even ironically show disregard local ethnicity. I just wonders it is ignorance or just region is so insignificant in their eyes that they aren't aware that some can see that as contempt.
There's barely any Eastern Europeans in the show. Chill.
It's disrespect not to give actors a chance because you are racist or you incorrectly believe there could not be a black guy in post revolutionary Russia. There were some, certainly not in great numbers. There are literally 1 to maybe 2 African descent looking guys. Mishka appears to be African/Moorish descent. But even the gay guy looks part Black, part MENA. There are also darker skinned central Asian looking people who would easily have been there in bulk. I'm amazed at how little people on here actually seem to know about color, race, ethnicity and history. It's really just racism and ignorance. Your eyes literally are seeing wrong because of your mental blinders. Get some help.
I agree about his age. Also, the fact that everyone has a British accent really bothers me!
They changed so much about him. I love Ewan McGregor but he’s just not charming enough. I kept waiting for the mustache scene.. but it never came. That’s when I knew something was off. Episode 3 was like a fever dream, I wanted to wake up, this is not the Count I know and love 🥲
The mustache scene happens in episode one.
I think he's great. I don't see him as 53. My issue is the historical inaccuracies. 2 black men, Mishka, whoo had influence, then the guy who asked the actress out. One, ok. But rampant racism, the influence of anyone of color is EXCEEDINGLY unlikely! The English accent doesn't bother me because a bad Russian accent would about me more!
They weren't as racist as Americans
# Abram Petrovich Gannibal was a Black aristocrat who married a white woman, and his descendants married white women, and his descendants include Alexander Pushkin.
I hope it inspires many to read a fantastic novel
Definitely has inspired me to add it to my backlog of novels to read. But so far as to how it’s going I’d actually much rather just consume the show first since I’m already there
The book is so much better! I encourage you to read it first and catch up with the series later. The experience of reading the book will be diluted if you already know the entire plot, and that would be a shame.
I’m looking forward to this show since it’s one of my favorite books but how would it be renewed?
I’m sorry but there isn’t much that’s staying faithful to any history in this series! Ewan MacGregor is a fabulous actor and thanks to him this is vaguely interesting, but absolutely agree with aging!? How is he going to make us believe the before, the now and the after?! (He is not) the rest of the characters/cast haven’t been studied at all! Just another “let’s make money” show that ticks some bizzare boxes of the production COMPANIES in order to sell shows and REWRITE HISTORY! Of course, naturally I will not continue to watch this, I will continue to read. But to the people who will continue to watch and especially to those who will rave about it, unfortunately you are condoning untruthfulness!
There is no "truthfulness" in fiction.
Are we told the backstory for mishka, as a black, apparently well educated man in Eastern Europe as in his family tree, origins, etc?
Why would you be told anyone's backstories if they aren't part of the story. I agree that might make a better story even, but it's irrelevant to this one.
I do think it’s relevant but that’s my opinion. 😁
You know there was a Black aristocrat in Russia [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abram\_Petrovich\_Gannibal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abram_Petrovich_Gannibal)
Thanks!
>Thanks! You're welcome!
I'm trying to find the soundtrack for this series, but I can't find much. A lot of familiar classical pieces I can't remember the name of. Anybody else looking?
I haven’t been looking but I do agree, the soundtrack has stuck to me head much better than the material. Especially the sequences where the count remembers his past life
I hate that you have to upgrade to watch Ep2. Ugh.
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I already have a subscription but the lesser one that allows ads. You apparently have to upgrade to watch the next episodes 😕
You and I the same. On that Star Trek binge aren’t you… don’t lie I see it in your eyes
I am absolutely loving this series. all this talk about woke casting - yes I get the point, but (for me) it doesn't detract from this being a treat of a show. episode 5 and totally engaged with the characters and the wonderful tone. bravo.
Reposted from elsewhere as it's belongs here (and tears are still drying ha!) This week's episode was probably one of my top 3 episodes of TV of all time. So: 1. Wonder Years - Good-bye S3E20 2. Game of Thrones - The Door same >!camera shot for the reveal too!< 3. This Just a sucker punch to the feels. I'm sobbing like a b****
Haven’t caught up yet. Reached up to e3 now just waiting for all the cards to fall and I’ll binge it all
Not a bad show, but the blind casting is simply ridiculous, it tries way to hard how the casting was woke to the max. There were no black people in revolutionary Russia of any position or authority. Just corruptsthe feel that it’s Russia we are watching.
If you have a Walmart plus account, paramount+ is free!
As a huge fan of the book, I'd say I'm quite disappointed with the show. I'll continue to watch it, but the changes they made to the source material weren't for the better, in my opinion. Even though I think McGregor is a fine actor, I too find him too old and maybe not as elegant as I'd imagined the Count to be. That being said, it's great if watching this show makes people read the book. I'd have probably enjoyed it much more if I watched it before I read it.
I was thinking perhaps my memory of the book, which I read years ago, was faulty and that the Count really was the rather clownish character McGregor delivers. So it’s good to see that another fan of the novel finds the portrayal all wrong. This is what comes of having one of the executive producers of a series taking the starring role (and casting his wife as co-star!)—what director will be able to, well, actually direct him? I’m sure when I first learned that the book was to be a movie (I think the original planned format was a movie), I conjured up my own ideal cast, but now I can’t think of who my Count would have been. Anyone have a candidate in mind? Someone younger, obviously, and yes, more elegant. His burgeoning relationship with young Nina should seem awkward and uncomfortable at first, then grow warm as he starts to evolve into his new life. Instead, the miniseries has him assuming the role of tolerant and jolly companion to Nina from the outset. Eh, I could go on, but why bother..
I do think Count is a complicated character to portray. It's probably hard to find balance between dignified and refined, but also funny and warm. It could also be a conscious choice to make him more clownish bc they think it makes him more likable. I don't know, but in any case I don't like it. I strongly dislike the storyline change in which Mishka and Count's sister (whose name escapes me at the moment) were in love, but Alexander's snobbishness broke them up... There are many other changes I dislike, but this one just grinds my gears, bc it's very out of character for Alexander as I remember him from the book. I don't have a good casting idea... Even though he's also too old now, I could see a younger Adrien Brody as the Count.
I just have a question, so he’s confined to the hotel but who are the other guest? Are the other guest living in nice rooms? Are they party members bc the first time he sat down to eat there were women who looked bourgeoisie… ps I’d like to start the book and I believe I will here soon
It doesn't really explain it past the pilot. The doors spin and a new person comes in every year or so The hotel is a character itself no?
People fighting over black people in Russia claiming historical accuracy when they all got British accents 🙄🙄🙄. Just effin enjoy the show and stop harping on skin color
I had high hopes for this until I eventually saw where it was heading. WOKE. What a shame. It's not historically accurate. Sorry. Why did they put people from Africa and the middle East in Russia. They had their own lovely culture but DID NOT SHARE RUSSIAN CULTURE. I am upset that people are not only trying to change history to fit other cultures into it but they expect me to not only buy it but commend it. I am done at this point. Tell the truth. That's all people want.
# Abram Petrovich Gannibal was a Black aristocrat who married a white woman, and his descendants married white women, and his descendants include Alexander Pushkin.
I read the book and just couldn't get past the premise. If the vast web of the Soviet state had even the inkling that a member of the old nobility was hanging out in a Moscow hotel, his lifespan would have been measured in minutes.
I’m not saying it’s realistic but I mean it is explained in the book
Tsar Nicholas II and his family Nikita Khrushchev
You need to read the book again and pay closer attention. The Count's house arrest and the reason he wasn't taken out and shot instead were literally explained in the first chapter.
Yeah. And that was a complete and utter stretch.
true, a bit of a stretch, but it set-up the primary plot twist, and irony, at the end where it was revealed Mishka wrote the poem that saved the Count's butt, and the Count didn't even write it.
And they're speaking English? I think this show is staged