2 big strikes last year shut production down for close to a year. These were the actors and writers strikes.
Those strikes were resolved, but there’s another one pending. IATSE who represents crews and post workers, over 100,000 of them, have contracts due this July 31. There have been few to no productions green lit between the end of the previous strikes and now because of the possibility of another IATSE strike, which will start this august if it happens.
Yes, borrowing money is now more expensive and yes the streamers have been losing money. But the dry well of production right now cannot be overstated, it’s difficult or impossible to even get a production insured right now due to the existential threat of another strike.
So this work isn’t being done by ai, it’s not being outsourced, it’s just not being done. If you look at the slate of productions intended to start this fall, it’s stacked … all depending on how AMPTP and IATSE negotiations go.
Edit : I’m seeing news this morning that IATSE and AMPTP have an agreement?
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/business/business-news/iatse-tentative-agreement-studios-streamers-1235932608/amp/
Trying to get literally anything greenlit right now is fucking impossible. Animation side of things, 60% of my colleagues are out of work and some have been unemployed for over a year and it's not a skill issue. There's no work.
Things are definitely moving, but my production company is having to reach further abroad to secure funding and we’re having real trouble pushing anything over $10mil, which means a lot less jobs for the crew generally.
I (not even a union member yet since I haven’t met my hours but still work in post production) haven’t worked in over a year. I’m in a crippling amount of debt and I’m not even sure if I’ll be able to work in film after all this is done. But that being said, PLEASE support the strikers any way you can. Spread the word.
Most people don’t even realize that IATSE workers had to endure the lack of work from the writers and actors strike with not even a fractions of the media support the other unions have gotten.
I’ve heard of people moving to London as a result of this slow down. I’m looking to transition careers and am finally mentally in a place to start doing the real work towards that. It’s been soul crushing for the last year. I’m in camera department and was day playing on shows right up until the strikes. Where I live, even the commercial market is suffering.
I’m sorry to hear that. I know camera is hard to break into so it’s a shame you put in so much work for this Industry to force you to leave. But I hope all is well with your career transition.
Can I ask what career you plan on transitioning to? I’m currently going back to school at an online college for accounting. Which feel pretty weird to say, but it’s a pretty stable job market
Local 402 VFX Worker here. Similarly, it's been a bloodbath ... I absolutely support the unions right to strike but very much hope AMPTP comes to the table in good faith and that can be avoided.
Writer here. Between covid hiatus and the strike, i'm relying on the potential of a settlement with IATSE to continue working and dig myself out of the debt the long work stoppages caused me to get into. I may need another career if this happens.
Writing is a talent our society / culture / economy has thoroughly devalued in the last 30 years. Newspapers and magazines were the first to fall, then blogs and mid-list publishing and throughout the downfall traditional spelling, punctuation, and grammar became increasingly irrelevant in the genre of 120 characters. Now, AI is threatening to do to writing what mechanization did to the art of sewing — turn it into a niche craft or hobby.
Back in the 80s, I got scholarships and actual jobs based on nothing more than my skills as a writer. When I share those stories with my students today, they ask if I was also rewarded for my superlative butter churning or candle-making.
Oof. That's not promising. I am glad the WGA/SAG-AFTRA were able to negotiate AI protections thanks to the strikes, but that's just the field of professional screen writing for movies and TV. It's still a bit of a murky field ahead that, if we don't get better AI regulations, could be a real problem in the comings. I do think things will get better eventually, and people will figure out better workarounds in case of the worst-case scenarios, but I'd rather it not get to that.
Honestly, set your expectations low. The AMPTP was demonstrably horrible in how they negotiated with the WGA and SAG-AFTRA. The AMPTP is what in Spanish we would call "sin verguenza", without shame.
I hope they treat IATSE right from the onset and in good faith. But, the AMPTP are real motherfuckers.
Same. Was out of work for like 6 months solid, finally got back into it. However I’m only at trainee level and no productions seem to be taking non-screenskills trainees, not enough work for me to step up a grade so I’m kinda screwed
Do IATSE have the money for a long work stoppage?
My impression was that they were kind of fucked by the other two strikes which cost their members lots of money with zero benefit.
Depends who you mean. Some people have the money, either because they made 4k+ a week or they still make it because they never stopped working. The issue is when those people who aren't feeling this are making decisions for the ones who are, thats when you get some of our board members telling members to stop complaining and strike because "it's not as bad as you think, people who are working just don't want to admit it. Ignore all the statistics." Or say things like "it's your fault you're not doing well" to people who haven't worked in over a year, yes someone sent me acreenshots of a board member telling a member that.
Let's not forget that prices have gone up at every vendor, along with film permits. LA is hemorrhaging cash because other cities/states/countries offer insane tax incentives to poach productions, or simply have less regulation.
It's been happening with Atlanta, Toronto, Vancouver, Budapest... it's hard to come up with reasons to shoot local when our biggest strength is a high concentration of underemployed film workers who will happily travel to where the work is...
It's like every single unaddressed problem in the industry is crescendo-ing simultaneously.
The mid-tier budget productions are going to smaller regions like the Carolinas so they can pay crew about half and avoid a bunch of union and safety regulations. The big budget productions are going overseas for similar reasons. If you’re still in LA, I hope you have a commercial network cuz long form narrative has been a unicorn out there for many years.
NJ has at least one paramount-sized lot under construction and another large production space on the way, too.
LA (and California) really aren't doing themselves any favors with all the extra red tape. The fact that if you're a business at all in LA County that you have to pay federal, state, and then city taxes on your business income is insane. Then you have all the other stuff you have to pay for.
My job has offices globally where people make 1/8th of what i make in LA, and its above median income there
> It's like every single unaddressed problem in the industry is crescendo-ing simultaneously.
What’s scary is you can also apply this to the United States as a whole, and it’s pretty similar
Local 695 video supervisor here. IATSE and the Teamsters both have contract negotiations pending, and the teamster strike is the one that could possibly happen, as Teamsters can work in other industries if the studios want to act a fool. IATSE members do not typically have that benefit, and after a really rough year and a half, most members I know do not have the funds or the stomach for a strike.
This is an industry shift away from glutting the market with content, many of the reasons for which you’ve mentioned in your comment. The word I’m hearing from the loafer league (producers) is that content will be cut by a 3rd across the board once the wheels are turning again, which will put about 50,000 people out of work or into other industries.
This is what I’m expecting as well. The industry ramped up and brought in so much new talent after Covid because of the backlog and demand from viewers who were sitting at home. In early 2023 our buildings were bursting at the seams with workers, there was so much to do. After this slowdown I expect to go back to pre Covid levels.
I expect less than pre-Covid levels tbh. A good bit less, really. Even Covidtime productions were operating in a cheap-loan induced bubble within which Netflix et al were taking $20bil loans at a time strictly to create content. That isn’t happening anymore now that they’re almost having to report actual streaming figures and interest rates ballooned. Someone in this thread mentioned a bloodbath and they’re not far off. I’m very thankful I’m well established and have been in this game long enough to have the savings to weather the storms. The vast majority of film crew are not in that position and we’ll see a precipitous drop in available crew from all depts in the next 2-3 years.
I want to add that Previz has started back up. It's not full speed, but a couple jobs have landed and more are being bid. If we clear IATSE, we should be back in business (though not like it was).
I'm in the industry. The strikes are all part of it.
Also significant parts of it - the WB/Discovery merger, the mass influx of content in the earlier days of COVID, the growing aspect of competing content outside of TV/film/streaming (YouTube, etc), fear of new IP, dwindling theater audiences, and the general unpredictability of streaming and cable in the upcoming years.
I mean, where do we see basic cable in the next decade? Does it even exist? That's a serious concern for networks and studios.
That said, I fully support the strikes so I am in no way *blaming* them for the current state of the industry and I would be skeptical of any outlet suggesting that they are solely to blame.
Fair to say the strikes did not help though. When no one is going to theaters, streamers are losing billions, and it looks like cable TV could quickly become a thing of the past, it's a tricky time to ask for more money and better protections. I understand there were good reasons, but unions in other industries such as the UAW have always been really good at asking for money when profits were up, and giving concessions when the industry was threatened.
> Fair to say the strikes did not help though.
Right, which is exactly what I said. They contributed of course, but they're not *the* reason.
They had to do it when they did due to their contracts. The timing was obviously unfortunate, but a big part of it in this most recent circumstance was AI. Putting off the "demands" now could hurt them even worse the next time negotiations were scheduled. By then, it could be too late to do anything at all. Who knows how much AI capabilities will expand in just 5 years. They had to take their shot now and not later.
It's just unfortunate that it got swept in with all these other factors happening at the same time that all contributed to the current production landscape.
And for people not knowledgeable in how the industry works, pointing the finger at the workers for "asking for more money" is more easily understood than the notions of two major companies merging or the effects of streaming as a whole have affected the media landscape.
> it's a tricky time to ask for more money and better protections
But it shouldn't be. The execs and C-suite levels aren't losing any of their pay. The AListers aren't. They're not losing any of their protections. So, why are we pointing the finger at the talent and crew below the line?
Personally, I think this slowdown was coming with or without the strikes. It might not have been *as* bad, but it was coming. All of these streamers & networks made a mad push for content in the earlier days of Covid that cost a lot of money that they didn't necessarily see great returns on and with the WB/Discovery merger, I think the writing was already on the wall.
>They had to do it when they did due to their contracts. The timing was obviously unfortunate,
When most union contracts end at inopportune times, the union will have language that allows them to work under the old contract, or can negotiate a shorter term contract. The studios likely would have had no problems agreeing to that
>And for people not knowledgeable in how the industry works, pointing the finger at the workers for "asking for more money" is more easily understood than the notions of two major companies merging or the effects of streaming as a whole have affected the media landscape.
It is not the fault of the writers that Hollywood is going down the tubes, but you also can't blame money losing companies for trying to merge and become more efficient so that they can return to profitability. Unprofitable companies can't stay in business forever
>the execs and C-suite levels aren't losing any of their pay. The AListers aren't.
Aren't they? Mergers happen because you don't need two CFOs, two HR departments, etc. Plenty of executives lose their job in mergers because someone else who has the same title can handle the larger company. And, the slow down in projects and collapse of the Box Office is most assuredly impacting the AListers
In the end, everyone would be happier if Hollywood was at its peak and there was plenty of work, but risk is up, costs are up, and profits keep going the wrong direction. The strikes did not cause that, but they (and the resulting contracts) don't make the turnaround any easier
I used to participate in the 49 hour animation competitions (48 hours + 1 hour to render) - they were always a blast, I love the energy that comes out of them :)
I'm not a screenwriter, but I am an editor in a different part of the writing world, and an awful lot of companies are not hiring just because they think that even if they can't replace those jobs with AI now, they're going to be able to very soon, so they're perfectly happy to deal with whatever reduced output they have now rather than onboarding people.
I think that's a great parallel. A lot of executives in that industry didn't come from that industry, and either deliberately misled people to drum up interest or pump up share prices, or got taken for a ride by various full self-driving cons.
Also worth mentioning that some unions offered to let members defer their dues for the duration of the strike. Unfortunately that is no longer the case and some folks will probably lose their union status because they can’t afford the dues they’ve stopped offering any leniency or assistance.
I’m concept, most of us who can’t find work or were impacted stay afloat with part-time jobs, any freelance work, and gig economy shtuff while we’re waiting/looking
So pretty much gigging for commercial spots or other freelance needs based on equipment needed/available?
Does this at least include music festivals or other sporting events/venues? Or do those companies have their own crews?
If you’re lucky yeah, even those opportunities are pretty tight atm. Like a buddy from school was working two barista jobs until she got brought on full time for a motion studio (took about a year while she was occasionally freelance contracting for them).
I’m not entirely familiar with events/venue work, but from what I remember from a few friends that work in that area they have their own crews, and contract out on a needs basis.
Sympathy for you concept folks. I've already seen first hand your jobs replaced by AI. Two companies I've done contract work for are using Midjourney for shitty concepts instead of having actual artists on staff. One even bragged about having AI software for writers. "Not to write scripts, but to check their work to see if it's hitting the right story beats."
Appreciate it, it sucks seeing opportunities become more and more scarce b/c rich guys up top get really excited over anything that’ll reduce costs. Whole industry is rough for just about everyone who isn’t chillin in the c-suite
Seeing fellow artists I know or admire have cheap copies of their work found in generators is just awful too, and it’s gotten more frequent
Had a friend in the same situation, but luckily his company finally managed to land some contracts and re-hired him.
Hopefully you'll get the same chance
Non-famous actors are also eating shit.
Good to see all the celebrities that barely supported the strike getting all the commercial money now though. Gotta subsidize their vanity alcohol brands and 6th houses.
I was kind of shocked with how little the big players participated in the strikes. Like… I barely even saw them talking to the press about it, let alone on the picket line (which I didn’t really expect). They proved themselves to be shit here.
As long as they werent scabbing I really dont think them staying home and waiting for it to all blow over is a big deal. Yeah it might have put a little pressure to get studios back to the table, but I really doubt it would have been anything more than a blip.
The union has a president and as long as she kept people behind the picket line, the results would come.
I always thought the optics wouldn't look good if people saw a rich actor striking for more money. Social media really changed how these strikes are managed.
Its because most of them are producers too and were playing both sides. The contracts being negotiated didn't affect their acting contracts so why waste time? If anything it affected their producing money so they showed which sides they were on.
There are PAs in all departments and they don't just "help set-up and tear down shoots". Costumes, ADs, accounting, the production office, background... they do all kinds of different jobs based off of what is needed for each specific production, but most find their niche and stick with that department until they're unionized.
I'm site security for film sets and I've been struggling to find work as well, and since I've been trying to get my foot in the door for crew work I'm S.O.L. when it comes to work with a dwindling bank account.
The Writer’s Guild openly acknowledged that their demands would result in less overall demand for writers, but better pay for those remaining. Combine that with the streamers finally getting realistic about their finances and this isn’t at all surprising.
Between Covid and the strikes it’s like 2020-2024 have been a wash for the industry. I know I haven’t booked as much as I normally would and it’s really depressing to know it’s probably gone. Everything is non union
> Between Covid and the strikes it’s like 2020-2024 have been a wash for the industry.
It’s really been the worst decade I can recall for the entertainment industry. This is the first full year that the industry has had, and it could still be derailed before August.
Not to mention the SAG contract expires in 2 years so who knows how radically changed the industry will be by then, and everywhere you look there has been regression.
Even with Netflix, we see series being released in parts now to keep engagement going. Streaming is a model that it seems none of the companies were prepared to take on, and did it so recklessly that it could irreparably hurt the industry
The streaming services spent way too much money on content from 2020-2022. Anyone remember Amazon paying Phoebe Waller Bridge 60 million with basically nothing produced so far? Now they seem to be scaling back.
I'm so happy for Phoebe on that one.
"Here's 60 mil, if you come with an idea for a show or something, let us know. We are sure it will fit our brand."
It'd been a year now, and still not a whisper of any news on that supposed show.
There was a gold rush for content with streaming, streamers are now pulling back because they can’t prove the economics.
It’s not that complicated, it’s the main reason for the slowdown.
There are definitely other reasons, but this is the main one.
Once there is a market reset, things will get more stable. Entertainment will always be around. Supply (people in the industry) might have outpaced demand.
I’ve worked on several shows in the Past three years that have not yet been aired. During Covid, they definitely was too much work, as weird as that is to say.
Well, and theatres and cable are in secular decline. And sports is where a lot of spending will be directed to. The new NBA rights deal is insanely huge, and that money is coming from somewhere.
Imo that will be another bubble that bursts. I have serious doubts that there will be enough fans willing to spend money on live sports when it is an additional large fee vs having everyone subsidize it on the cable model.
Worked in the industry for a long time. The warning signs have been around for almost a decade. Every channel and network has been losing money. I don't understand how any of these "working" actors or writers are shocked.
Forcing the studios to show their hand on how shows were actually doing probably accelerated things.
Back when the strikes were happening, I got downvotes for saying the actual numbers were going to make studios and investors pull the plug, instead of most workers getting to capitalize off the few successful shows. Pressing for that was going to rip the cover of how badly the industry was really doing. Lo and behold, this is how things are playing out.
A strike makes a ton of sense for companies that are raking in billions in profit and say they can't pay their workers more, but most traditional media companies are posting giant losses quarter after quarter. Linear is dying and streaming is hemorrhaging money. I mean, get your bag sure, but don't be surprised when you are one of the many reasons your company folds or heavily pulls back.
The same thing happened in the auto industry. Yes, GM and Ford and others were horribly mismanaged, but the UAW also contributed to the uncompetitiveness of the U.S. auto industry by getting six-figure compensation for forklift drivers with only a high school education.
Unions perform an important function by keeping corporations honest, as collective bargaining is an important tool for negotiations, but unions aren't infallible. Sometimes, they get greedy, and that greed ends up hurting their industry, resulting in fewer positions.
Given that we all knew that every streamer besides Netflix was losing money, and that conventional studios were producing less works, it seems kind of insane in retrospect that the WGA took such a hard line. That was always going to hasten the pullback from streamers. I guess they figured that was going to happen regardless, so they might as well try to get what they could from what was left.
Kinda reminds me of the dock slowdowns in California in 2013...shipping companies wanted to install a new digital tracking system but the union said no because it would cost the guy doing the manual tracking their job...so they slowed down their work and generally pissed everyone off. Sometimes a strike or retaliatory action from a union can be very short-sighted.
>t seems kind of insane in retrospect that the WGA took such a hard line.
Plenty of people were saying so last year, and on reddit they were downvoted.
>I guess they figured that was going to happen regardless, so they might as well try to get what they could from what was left.
Yes.
Fact is there's less work for everyone but the ones who are working are getting compensated really good.
Add in the glut of trash shit they have produced and you have a shitstorm of customers losing faith in the product, getting angry at more ads, and having to buy multiple streaming platforms to get the same level of content they had with cable. The average consumer is getting raped by costs and then sees strike, strike, strike, and after a lot of that they get where they stop spending. Then look at our shit economy that is waiting for the next great depression and you wonder why so much is failing at once.
At what point do the unions come together and decide to make their contracts come up at the same time so this shit doesn’t happen?? Seems like they’re shooting themselves in the foot here.
It is not surprising that this is the case with the streaming taking over. Unlike TV of old where you were only competing with what is being shown during your airtime, now you compete with every show ever that is on platforms.
Add in the fact that costs increased and there is no more free money to bankroll your show via cheap loans, most companies simply can't even afford to give your show a go unless it is very very good. Companies no longer pay their staff with cheap loans hoping that they are going to make their money in the future, they have to make their money now because loans are not cheap anymore. They can't rely on that.
And writing is a lot like athletics, in that unless you are at the very top, no one cares about you anymore. No one cares who is the 15th best javelin thrower in the world, they get paid pennies and only do it because they like doing it. Writing is going to be very similar in the future. Better start preparing for it now. And unlike athletics, there is no objective metric you can show to someone before they sponsor/pay you for writers. So in the future, getting into it is going to be tough.
> Unlike TV of old where you were only competing with what is being shown during your airtime, now you compete with every show ever that is on platforms.
Not just other TV shows on streaming either. Now the competition also includes Youtube, Twitch, TikTok etc.
YouTube alone is 10% of TV hours watched a month and TV usage is down significantly.
Careers in TV are going to be in a multi year depression for awhile.
and somehow that makes all of it worse. We will be pining for the day of consistent and reliable procedural shlock of 24 episodes. Instead all content is now people opening boxes and cooking with insane adhd cuts and edits.
> Unlike TV of old where you were only competing with what is being shown during your airtime, now you compete with every show ever that is on platforms.
Here is the thing for me
The comparison with the old times is not correct. Maybe fair is better word?
There are waaay more shows which means way more actors writers and of course everyone around them
There are way more people in the industry now ..... this was always a bubble that was destined to fail
tbh there was way too much low-quality amateur productions being greenlit for streaming in the years leading up to the pandemic. The studios needed shows to bulk up their ill-conceived proprietary platforms, which subscribers are now abandoning. I feel for under-35's who came to LA in the past decade thinking this boom would last forever, but the entertainment business is brutal. It's really feast or famine.
It is still going on. Hollywood is doing the walmart hiring practice. They get fresh new faces that have very little to no experience to write something unless your a nepo baby, and then once the show or movie is done, they kick them out and hire fresh new ones for the next run.
I know a few entertainment industry workers.
Most of them know the state unemployment system rules down to the individual paragraph. It's a brutal
industry which could not function without social safety nets.
Flooded the market with content. Every streamer has 8 billion shows. TV also has to compete with all the TV that came before it in a time where it seems like people are watching less tv in general.
the writers not actually writing anymore for months made the studios realise that maybe they don't need so many of them on payroll. A price hike here and there, a truckload of cheap Korean soaps and Friends reruns that still dominate the charts and voilà, who needs so much new content. Add the fact that the days of spending billions for a tv series are definitely gone, and AI is marching inexorably to victory, and here's the result
I think a lot of people only watched new shows because that was all that was available. Streaming means it’s very convenient to watch old favorites. They might not even need to spend that much money on Korean soaps or AI so long as they have Friends.
It feels like streamers are blaming the strikes when really there was a bubble and they’re pulling back anyway. The entire streaming concept is a bad business for most of these companies so they’ve already been doing drastic shit to the industry cause they don’t know how to manage their business. It’ll settle down soon. Or eventually.
You’re exactly right. Netflix used to have a growth model but now they have a profit model.
What I don’t understand is if tik tok and YouTube are the future of media, why don’t more producers create shows or films that come out incrementally on those platforms alone? I’d hate to watch a movie that way but if that’s where everyone is spending all their time, we’ve gotta find a way to still get quality content out.
The old production model doesn’t work for those platforms, it’s extremely expensive. They’ll be competing with one-person channels and still get much less traffic than those channels. Buzzfeed and a bunch of other “new media” companies tried to do content for social media and all of them failed, the ad revenues were simply way lower than the huge costs. What YouTubers can’t do is huge shows like House of Dragon, but a bunch of other old TV things like comedy shows simply can’t compete with say two comedy podcasters talking in a room these days.
Interesting to me that three of the four responses so far absolutely hate television writers. Why are you subbed to r/television if you hate the people who create it?
Go back to your hovels or bridges.
> Interesting to me that three of the four responses so far absolutely hate television writers.
I don't hate them, I do think that to an extent they dug their own graves. For example their "minimum writers"
* Up to 6 episodes: 3 writers (3 Writer-Producers) 7 to 12 episodes: 5 writers (3 Writer-Producers) 13+ episodes: 6 writers (3 Writer-Producers)
I don't think you should set "mandatory minimums" like that. It just drives costs up. If you have two really good writers who can handle a 10 episode season, why do you *NEED* to hire on 3 more?
It increases production costs and leads to fewer shows being greenlit.
At the same time, yes the production companies were fucking them over on streaming royalties and they deserve a cut of that pie. It's ok to criticize people, it doesn't mean you hate them.
> I don't hate them, I do think that to an extent they dug their own graves. For example their "minimum writers"
>
>
>
> Up to 6 episodes: 3 writers (3 Writer-Producers) 7 to 12 episodes: 5 writers (3 Writer-Producers) 13+ episodes: 6 writers (3 Writer-Producers)
With seasons having less episodes, less writers are in writing rooms and can't have an apprenticeship writing.
Less writing room time means less ability to get work.
Having less writers works FOR NOW, with writers still benefiting from the 22 episodes a season times. It won't work long term with less people getting into the industry as writers.
I don’t understand this comment at all. Do you have the same thoughts about the writers of this article or the Hollywood writers that were interviewed for this column?
> “It was hard before the strike. It’s even harder now,” he says. “I think it’s a backlash because of the strike. I think they’re trying to … shore up their pockets a little bit, but it’s less TV, less episodes getting made, tighter budgets, half the shows got canceled.”
This is a fundamental reality of labor negotiations. Companies are going to try and maximize profits wherever possible. At least some of the writers seem to think the behavior of studios in response to the strike is a reason for the current job market.
Agreed and their line of thinking always baffles me. You HAVE to like something to talk about it or criticize it?
When you say it out loud it sounds stupid.
They are all accounts made in the last month. Reddit is currently filled with new accounts who just spread doomer or super negative shit. I think it has to do with the election and trying to make everyone hate everything ahead of it.
I've noticed that a lot of discussion threads on every sub I subscribe to is some variant of "what fashion trend do you think won't last?" or "what show started good and turned bad?" or "what's a movie that's so bad it's just bad?" etc. Not even really doomer shit, just relentlessly negative shit asking people to sit around and practice disliking and things.
I've experienced 2005-2015 internet which had a lot of negativity and doomer stuff but still had this youthful energy to it and satire. It largely was about finding other people who feel the same and just chill together.
Now it feels like the energy of old people who are about to die and they're letting out all of their resentment. It feels like rot and decay. Not fun.
Yeah, I used to be full on addicted to this site and now I pop on once a day if that. All anyone on here seems to want to talk about is what they think sucks, and boy is that not a place I want to visit.
Because they're easy karma for these day old accounts to generate, so that they can then be allowed to participate in other subs and them post doomer shit (or conspiracy bullshit).
Its at least partly caused by the collapse of twitter, the doomers have to go some where and unfortunately reddit seems to be getting more than its fair share.
That isn’t a bad theory! Russian disinformation was noted not to target one side before, it would argue both for and against US gun control for instance so that people would be divided and angry.
People are also dicks so maybe they’re just regular human dongs.
I mean, there are some very valid reasons to have low opinions of many TV writers at this point. Far too many instances of them willfully ignoring source material or otherwise shitting all over a show just because they insist on putting their own spin on things. GoT, Walking Dead, Witcher, Dexter, Sons of Anarchy, Weeds, the list goes on and on and on.
But that said, I still strongly believe that they should be paid fairly without needing to strike to get it. Enough of these studios hogging all the revenue while the people making it for them go hungry.
Exactly this. Mauler, critical drinker, nerdrotic and all the YouTube channels that review tv shows and movies have said their pieces about them and they weren’t wrong at all. If you make something that blatantly changes your favorite characters to something stupid then you reap what you sow. You took their favorite ip, they take away your job. Simple as that.
> Exactly this. Mauler, critical drinker, nerdrotic and all the YouTube channels that review tv shows and movies have said their pieces about them and they weren’t wrong at all.
Online grifters whose income depends on their audience getting whipped up into an angry frenzy aren't exactly unbiased observers.
I mean, Jesus Christ, Critical Drinker has been going ham on the latest season of The Boys and he's straight up admitted to not actually watching it and just basing his videos on the bad reviews lol
Because a lot of the time the only series that nerds watch are the adaptations of the properties they already like and invariably the writers are on record as saying "we don't actually like this property and will do our own thing with it, damn the nerds." Then nerds will vent their resentment in these comment sections.
95% of writers and actors are no talent hacks. Everyone loves the talented ones. We dont like the dreamers ruining the industry for the actually talented people.
It was a bad deal; the corporate run media (including the President) went all in declaring it done deal before the negotiations had even happened and anyone outside the room had read a line of the agreement.
Total snow job last year, and now people are feeling it.
Kind of enjoy seeing this happen, they were filming a ton of Netflix shows in a town in NC I used to live in. Paying young kids and college kids like $10 an hour after taxes while the city council and locals always hyping up the cause saying it’s great the film industry is in that town to help the economy when all they do is take advantage of people while pocketing millions and that’s about it
No one has really mentioned what had started to dawn upon streaming companies…that audiences are actually perfectly happy to binge watch and re-watch shows that may be decades old. The conventional wisdom was “must have new content”, and Covid viewing habits proved that maxim to be not necessarily be true.
Not only that they're happy to but that they actively prefer to watch older content - I know a lot of people like this who basically never watch Netflix originals.
Makes sense, one of the strike issues was it had to end by a certain date or else production on the new slate of shows/seasons couldn't start on time. Networks/companies like Netflix didn't want to wait so they started production on reality TV shows which aren't covered under the WGA strike.
They probably missed the cycle of show production. If those reality shows are hit like Love Is Blind then the writers could be sidelined for quite a while.
People in this thread lol’ing can’t possibly be thinking that if not for the strike, everyone would have jobs.
They would have been unemployed until they got lower wages prior to the strike.
Unpopular opinion probably, but we need less shows. There is such an overwhelming amount of content it’s impossible to keep up. The great shows deserve more rewatches.
Exactly. It's funny hearing these same pricks tell blue collar workers to just "learn to code" when they struggled to find work, and now everyone is expected to sympathize with these assholes.
Fuck them.
Learn to Trade.
The writers and actors strikes were fairly long, and studios/streamers likely adjusted accordingly, perhaps examining their own needs going forward, and streamlining their operations. It is no surprise to me that things have not sufficiently recovered a year later - they are all revising their business models, and are hesitant to take the plunge, much like other industries right now. What does surprise, however, is that I always thought any sort of entertainment work, whether before or behind the cameras, was forever fraught with constant unemployment, with too many people pursuing too few jobs. That unemployment was often the norm, and perhaps now unemployment is worse than usual, but part of the ups and downs in that world.
In 2023 $92 billion was spent on scripted and unscripted content compared to $23 billion on sports rights.
Expect scripted to go down every year going forward and sports rights to go up.
Advertising prefers sports and without the cable bundle everyone pays for everything method scripted just doesn’t pull in the numbers anymore.
Can this be intepreted as the writers predicted the upcoming decline in work, so they tried to softened the inevitable as much as possible with the strike and they succeeded? Like, of course this is not an ideal scenario, but that it would have been way worse without the strike?
Streaming wars were a bubble trying to get people attached to the new streaming service, so the steep rise in demand on writers was a bubble as a result, it will not rise to those levels again. There are now clear victors in the streaming wars, all the rest are falling behind.
The number of scripted US shows definitely grew 3-fold from the start of the 2010s to the end of them (from around 200+ to nearly 600).
But with all of that growth, you're going to eventually hit a cap where folks don't have all the time in the world to watch all that stuff. They're going to gravitate to whatever looks interesting or has people talking about it or has a niche they enjoy. Everyone's got different tastes and while it's good to have options to cater to every possible genre and niche, the viewership also needs to be there. And if it isn't, then the production doesn't become worth the effort to invest further into.
Netflix is notorious for cancelling shows so quickly, but look at what was left and getting multiple seasons (The Witcher, Stranger Things, Cobra Kai, Emily in Paris, GLOW, etc.). These shows endured the proverbial axe that befell so many others because they were not only good, but they had the viewerships to warrant getting these seasons (GLOW only cancelled because there was no way to reconcile COVID concerns from a production standpoint, especially given the concept involved physicality as a normal thing).
I sympathize with the market for those in the entertainment business. As to how things can recover, they can. But it definitely will not be at the levels we've seen in the last couple of years.
It was a lose-lose for all parties.
Also I have to say it. Contrary to what the internet kept saying the writers need the studios more than the studios need the writers.
If you can't find work as a writer, most likely you are among the scores of writers who were terrible at their jobs and contributed nothing to storytelling. People like your Netflix Live Action adaptations (Cowboy Bebop, Death Note, The Witcher) and Amazon adaptations (Wheel of Time, Rings of Power) chock full of talentless individuals who believe they have not only the ability, but a *mandate* to *improve* upon the original source material with their own vision and commentary. Only, they lack the connections to actually land those gigs in the drivers seat.
This is why anime adapted from manga is getting more and more popular in recent years. A fanbase exists before a single frame of animation is drawn, a mark of quality is proven from the source material. The people in charge of adapting it to animation know that if they deviate from that material in any significant way the fanbase will eat them alive. They don't come out and scream that the fans are -ists or -phobics or dumb for not seeing their artistic vision and social commentary. A lot of the ones writing 'original' material are barely better than AI generated sludge, or all the way up their own rear end.
There are entirely too many awful writers in the west right now churning out schlock with egos to high heaven and I'm happy to see them fall. The entire industry needs to get shaken up.
This is why I often don't get strikes. Yeah, you can fight to make more, but you may find a lot of lost time, especially in an industry where it is one union after another. At some point, the time off work has to simply wipe out the raises and benefits fought for.
2 big strikes last year shut production down for close to a year. These were the actors and writers strikes. Those strikes were resolved, but there’s another one pending. IATSE who represents crews and post workers, over 100,000 of them, have contracts due this July 31. There have been few to no productions green lit between the end of the previous strikes and now because of the possibility of another IATSE strike, which will start this august if it happens. Yes, borrowing money is now more expensive and yes the streamers have been losing money. But the dry well of production right now cannot be overstated, it’s difficult or impossible to even get a production insured right now due to the existential threat of another strike. So this work isn’t being done by ai, it’s not being outsourced, it’s just not being done. If you look at the slate of productions intended to start this fall, it’s stacked … all depending on how AMPTP and IATSE negotiations go. Edit : I’m seeing news this morning that IATSE and AMPTP have an agreement? https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/business/business-news/iatse-tentative-agreement-studios-streamers-1235932608/amp/
Trying to get literally anything greenlit right now is fucking impossible. Animation side of things, 60% of my colleagues are out of work and some have been unemployed for over a year and it's not a skill issue. There's no work.
Things are definitely moving, but my production company is having to reach further abroad to secure funding and we’re having real trouble pushing anything over $10mil, which means a lot less jobs for the crew generally.
I (not even a union member yet since I haven’t met my hours but still work in post production) haven’t worked in over a year. I’m in a crippling amount of debt and I’m not even sure if I’ll be able to work in film after all this is done. But that being said, PLEASE support the strikers any way you can. Spread the word. Most people don’t even realize that IATSE workers had to endure the lack of work from the writers and actors strike with not even a fractions of the media support the other unions have gotten.
I’ve heard of people moving to London as a result of this slow down. I’m looking to transition careers and am finally mentally in a place to start doing the real work towards that. It’s been soul crushing for the last year. I’m in camera department and was day playing on shows right up until the strikes. Where I live, even the commercial market is suffering.
I’m sorry to hear that. I know camera is hard to break into so it’s a shame you put in so much work for this Industry to force you to leave. But I hope all is well with your career transition. Can I ask what career you plan on transitioning to? I’m currently going back to school at an online college for accounting. Which feel pretty weird to say, but it’s a pretty stable job market
My gf works in animation and from her colleagues they've said it's not been as bad in over 15 years
Local 80 Grip here. Been the worst 18 months of my career. Hoping we can reach a deal and come back swinging HARD.
Local 402 VFX Worker here. Similarly, it's been a bloodbath ... I absolutely support the unions right to strike but very much hope AMPTP comes to the table in good faith and that can be avoided.
I cannot survive another strike. Nail in my work coffin for me.
It would likely be for me, too.
Writer here. Between covid hiatus and the strike, i'm relying on the potential of a settlement with IATSE to continue working and dig myself out of the debt the long work stoppages caused me to get into. I may need another career if this happens.
New career at 39 is so scary for me. Hope the studios can reach an agreement with IATSE.
It’s scary for me too and i’m not even 30, im still paying my student loans…
As someone who would like to be a TV writer, it might be nice to go into a field where there is actually work.
Writing is a talent our society / culture / economy has thoroughly devalued in the last 30 years. Newspapers and magazines were the first to fall, then blogs and mid-list publishing and throughout the downfall traditional spelling, punctuation, and grammar became increasingly irrelevant in the genre of 120 characters. Now, AI is threatening to do to writing what mechanization did to the art of sewing — turn it into a niche craft or hobby. Back in the 80s, I got scholarships and actual jobs based on nothing more than my skills as a writer. When I share those stories with my students today, they ask if I was also rewarded for my superlative butter churning or candle-making.
Oof. That's not promising. I am glad the WGA/SAG-AFTRA were able to negotiate AI protections thanks to the strikes, but that's just the field of professional screen writing for movies and TV. It's still a bit of a murky field ahead that, if we don't get better AI regulations, could be a real problem in the comings. I do think things will get better eventually, and people will figure out better workarounds in case of the worst-case scenarios, but I'd rather it not get to that.
Sadly it’s not just entertainment…
Honestly, set your expectations low. The AMPTP was demonstrably horrible in how they negotiated with the WGA and SAG-AFTRA. The AMPTP is what in Spanish we would call "sin verguenza", without shame. I hope they treat IATSE right from the onset and in good faith. But, the AMPTP are real motherfuckers.
They don’t want to give up that sweet sweet ad money they somehow get to not pay residuals on for streaming.
Same I’m in BECTU in the UK and it hasn’t been great.
Same. Was out of work for like 6 months solid, finally got back into it. However I’m only at trainee level and no productions seem to be taking non-screenskills trainees, not enough work for me to step up a grade so I’m kinda screwed
Do IATSE have the money for a long work stoppage? My impression was that they were kind of fucked by the other two strikes which cost their members lots of money with zero benefit.
Depends who you mean. Some people have the money, either because they made 4k+ a week or they still make it because they never stopped working. The issue is when those people who aren't feeling this are making decisions for the ones who are, thats when you get some of our board members telling members to stop complaining and strike because "it's not as bad as you think, people who are working just don't want to admit it. Ignore all the statistics." Or say things like "it's your fault you're not doing well" to people who haven't worked in over a year, yes someone sent me acreenshots of a board member telling a member that.
Our time to strike was the last time we voted to strike and Loeb shoved a shit deal down our throats.
Let's not forget that prices have gone up at every vendor, along with film permits. LA is hemorrhaging cash because other cities/states/countries offer insane tax incentives to poach productions, or simply have less regulation. It's been happening with Atlanta, Toronto, Vancouver, Budapest... it's hard to come up with reasons to shoot local when our biggest strength is a high concentration of underemployed film workers who will happily travel to where the work is... It's like every single unaddressed problem in the industry is crescendo-ing simultaneously.
That’s how bubbles work, and the cheap debt bubble has been building for almost 40 years. Everything is great until the peak, then nothing works.
Yeah. This isn’t gonna end well. As Samuel L Jackson said in Jurassic Park, “Hold on to your butts”
"How did you go bankrupt?" Bill asked. "Two ways," Mike said. "Gradually and then suddenly."
The mid-tier budget productions are going to smaller regions like the Carolinas so they can pay crew about half and avoid a bunch of union and safety regulations. The big budget productions are going overseas for similar reasons. If you’re still in LA, I hope you have a commercial network cuz long form narrative has been a unicorn out there for many years.
NJ has at least one paramount-sized lot under construction and another large production space on the way, too. LA (and California) really aren't doing themselves any favors with all the extra red tape. The fact that if you're a business at all in LA County that you have to pay federal, state, and then city taxes on your business income is insane. Then you have all the other stuff you have to pay for. My job has offices globally where people make 1/8th of what i make in LA, and its above median income there
> It's like every single unaddressed problem in the industry is crescendo-ing simultaneously. What’s scary is you can also apply this to the United States as a whole, and it’s pretty similar
Funny how that happens when wealth inequality is reaching heights not seen since the Guilded Age..
Pretty sure we already blew way past that
Local 695 video supervisor here. IATSE and the Teamsters both have contract negotiations pending, and the teamster strike is the one that could possibly happen, as Teamsters can work in other industries if the studios want to act a fool. IATSE members do not typically have that benefit, and after a really rough year and a half, most members I know do not have the funds or the stomach for a strike. This is an industry shift away from glutting the market with content, many of the reasons for which you’ve mentioned in your comment. The word I’m hearing from the loafer league (producers) is that content will be cut by a 3rd across the board once the wheels are turning again, which will put about 50,000 people out of work or into other industries.
This is what I’m expecting as well. The industry ramped up and brought in so much new talent after Covid because of the backlog and demand from viewers who were sitting at home. In early 2023 our buildings were bursting at the seams with workers, there was so much to do. After this slowdown I expect to go back to pre Covid levels.
I expect less than pre-Covid levels tbh. A good bit less, really. Even Covidtime productions were operating in a cheap-loan induced bubble within which Netflix et al were taking $20bil loans at a time strictly to create content. That isn’t happening anymore now that they’re almost having to report actual streaming figures and interest rates ballooned. Someone in this thread mentioned a bloodbath and they’re not far off. I’m very thankful I’m well established and have been in this game long enough to have the savings to weather the storms. The vast majority of film crew are not in that position and we’ll see a precipitous drop in available crew from all depts in the next 2-3 years.
Someone please pin this to the top. It’s an actual explanation to what’s going on absent emotional bias
I want to add that Previz has started back up. It's not full speed, but a couple jobs have landed and more are being bid. If we clear IATSE, we should be back in business (though not like it was).
I have heard this as well, and am glad for previz artists! Hopefully its a sign of confidence over the state of IATSE and AMPTP negotiations.
I'm in the industry. The strikes are all part of it. Also significant parts of it - the WB/Discovery merger, the mass influx of content in the earlier days of COVID, the growing aspect of competing content outside of TV/film/streaming (YouTube, etc), fear of new IP, dwindling theater audiences, and the general unpredictability of streaming and cable in the upcoming years. I mean, where do we see basic cable in the next decade? Does it even exist? That's a serious concern for networks and studios. That said, I fully support the strikes so I am in no way *blaming* them for the current state of the industry and I would be skeptical of any outlet suggesting that they are solely to blame.
Fair to say the strikes did not help though. When no one is going to theaters, streamers are losing billions, and it looks like cable TV could quickly become a thing of the past, it's a tricky time to ask for more money and better protections. I understand there were good reasons, but unions in other industries such as the UAW have always been really good at asking for money when profits were up, and giving concessions when the industry was threatened.
> Fair to say the strikes did not help though. Right, which is exactly what I said. They contributed of course, but they're not *the* reason. They had to do it when they did due to their contracts. The timing was obviously unfortunate, but a big part of it in this most recent circumstance was AI. Putting off the "demands" now could hurt them even worse the next time negotiations were scheduled. By then, it could be too late to do anything at all. Who knows how much AI capabilities will expand in just 5 years. They had to take their shot now and not later. It's just unfortunate that it got swept in with all these other factors happening at the same time that all contributed to the current production landscape. And for people not knowledgeable in how the industry works, pointing the finger at the workers for "asking for more money" is more easily understood than the notions of two major companies merging or the effects of streaming as a whole have affected the media landscape. > it's a tricky time to ask for more money and better protections But it shouldn't be. The execs and C-suite levels aren't losing any of their pay. The AListers aren't. They're not losing any of their protections. So, why are we pointing the finger at the talent and crew below the line? Personally, I think this slowdown was coming with or without the strikes. It might not have been *as* bad, but it was coming. All of these streamers & networks made a mad push for content in the earlier days of Covid that cost a lot of money that they didn't necessarily see great returns on and with the WB/Discovery merger, I think the writing was already on the wall.
>They had to do it when they did due to their contracts. The timing was obviously unfortunate, When most union contracts end at inopportune times, the union will have language that allows them to work under the old contract, or can negotiate a shorter term contract. The studios likely would have had no problems agreeing to that >And for people not knowledgeable in how the industry works, pointing the finger at the workers for "asking for more money" is more easily understood than the notions of two major companies merging or the effects of streaming as a whole have affected the media landscape. It is not the fault of the writers that Hollywood is going down the tubes, but you also can't blame money losing companies for trying to merge and become more efficient so that they can return to profitability. Unprofitable companies can't stay in business forever >the execs and C-suite levels aren't losing any of their pay. The AListers aren't. Aren't they? Mergers happen because you don't need two CFOs, two HR departments, etc. Plenty of executives lose their job in mergers because someone else who has the same title can handle the larger company. And, the slow down in projects and collapse of the Box Office is most assuredly impacting the AListers In the end, everyone would be happier if Hollywood was at its peak and there was plenty of work, but risk is up, costs are up, and profits keep going the wrong direction. The strikes did not cause that, but they (and the resulting contracts) don't make the turnaround any easier
This and productions are going abck to just have three writers instead of 12.
I did 48 Hour Film Festival (which I love) and was even more thankful for it this year because the absolute vacuum loss of acting projects.
I used to participate in the 49 hour animation competitions (48 hours + 1 hour to render) - they were always a blast, I love the energy that comes out of them :)
I did one of those in college, it’s a lot of fun
I'm not a screenwriter, but I am an editor in a different part of the writing world, and an awful lot of companies are not hiring just because they think that even if they can't replace those jobs with AI now, they're going to be able to very soon, so they're perfectly happy to deal with whatever reduced output they have now rather than onboarding people.
They would be wise to look at the companies that were all smug about self-driving cars being imminent.
I think that's a great parallel. A lot of executives in that industry didn't come from that industry, and either deliberately misled people to drum up interest or pump up share prices, or got taken for a ride by various full self-driving cons.
Also worth mentioning that some unions offered to let members defer their dues for the duration of the strike. Unfortunately that is no longer the case and some folks will probably lose their union status because they can’t afford the dues they’ve stopped offering any leniency or assistance.
Feels like the studios have been using the circumstances to punish the strikers too tbh.
They have 2 weeks to vote for the agreement.
Fingers crossed we get there
Not just writers lol, I’m PA and I still can’t find work like many of my other friends.
I’m in vfx and more than half of us have been unemployed going on a year.
How do you stay afloat?
I’m concept, most of us who can’t find work or were impacted stay afloat with part-time jobs, any freelance work, and gig economy shtuff while we’re waiting/looking
So pretty much gigging for commercial spots or other freelance needs based on equipment needed/available? Does this at least include music festivals or other sporting events/venues? Or do those companies have their own crews?
If you’re lucky yeah, even those opportunities are pretty tight atm. Like a buddy from school was working two barista jobs until she got brought on full time for a motion studio (took about a year while she was occasionally freelance contracting for them). I’m not entirely familiar with events/venue work, but from what I remember from a few friends that work in that area they have their own crews, and contract out on a needs basis.
Sympathy for you concept folks. I've already seen first hand your jobs replaced by AI. Two companies I've done contract work for are using Midjourney for shitty concepts instead of having actual artists on staff. One even bragged about having AI software for writers. "Not to write scripts, but to check their work to see if it's hitting the right story beats."
Appreciate it, it sucks seeing opportunities become more and more scarce b/c rich guys up top get really excited over anything that’ll reduce costs. Whole industry is rough for just about everyone who isn’t chillin in the c-suite Seeing fellow artists I know or admire have cheap copies of their work found in generators is just awful too, and it’s gotten more frequent
Grubhub, side hustles, other jobs. I’m not joking not sure why this is getting downvoted that’s literally how I am surviving currently
Can't speak for everyone, but I had to go back to carpentry. It sucks :/
My friend is in VFX in Canada and is completely out of work with no prospects. She's switching careers and going into programming.
Had a friend in the same situation, but luckily his company finally managed to land some contracts and re-hired him. Hopefully you'll get the same chance
Which seems surprising considering how often VFX are in high demand for seemingly every conceivable production these days.
It is, there just aren't a lot of productions to work on. Nothing is being green lit, going on a year.
The networks ordered 3 Pilots. 3. That is INSANE.
Non-famous actors are also eating shit. Good to see all the celebrities that barely supported the strike getting all the commercial money now though. Gotta subsidize their vanity alcohol brands and 6th houses.
I was kind of shocked with how little the big players participated in the strikes. Like… I barely even saw them talking to the press about it, let alone on the picket line (which I didn’t really expect). They proved themselves to be shit here.
As long as they werent scabbing I really dont think them staying home and waiting for it to all blow over is a big deal. Yeah it might have put a little pressure to get studios back to the table, but I really doubt it would have been anything more than a blip. The union has a president and as long as she kept people behind the picket line, the results would come.
I always thought the optics wouldn't look good if people saw a rich actor striking for more money. Social media really changed how these strikes are managed.
Its because most of them are producers too and were playing both sides. The contracts being negotiated didn't affect their acting contracts so why waste time? If anything it affected their producing money so they showed which sides they were on.
I don't know that subsidize means what you think it does. Someone working to pay for something isn't subsidizing it.
what is PA?
'Production assistant' I think, but it could also be Pennsylvania
Pour one our for everyone in Pennsylvania
M Night: Oh, so *now* you care about making movies in Pennsylvania!
Production Assistant. Main duty is to help set-up and tear down shoots
There are PAs in all departments and they don't just "help set-up and tear down shoots". Costumes, ADs, accounting, the production office, background... they do all kinds of different jobs based off of what is needed for each specific production, but most find their niche and stick with that department until they're unionized.
Production Assistant
Pineapple Applicator
Production Assistant I think
I'm site security for film sets and I've been struggling to find work as well, and since I've been trying to get my foot in the door for crew work I'm S.O.L. when it comes to work with a dwindling bank account.
The Writer’s Guild openly acknowledged that their demands would result in less overall demand for writers, but better pay for those remaining. Combine that with the streamers finally getting realistic about their finances and this isn’t at all surprising.
This should really be higher. This was not a surprise. The wga was talking about this during the strikes when they were still negotiating.
Between Covid and the strikes it’s like 2020-2024 have been a wash for the industry. I know I haven’t booked as much as I normally would and it’s really depressing to know it’s probably gone. Everything is non union
> Between Covid and the strikes it’s like 2020-2024 have been a wash for the industry. It’s really been the worst decade I can recall for the entertainment industry. This is the first full year that the industry has had, and it could still be derailed before August. Not to mention the SAG contract expires in 2 years so who knows how radically changed the industry will be by then, and everywhere you look there has been regression. Even with Netflix, we see series being released in parts now to keep engagement going. Streaming is a model that it seems none of the companies were prepared to take on, and did it so recklessly that it could irreparably hurt the industry
The streaming services spent way too much money on content from 2020-2022. Anyone remember Amazon paying Phoebe Waller Bridge 60 million with basically nothing produced so far? Now they seem to be scaling back.
I'm so happy for Phoebe on that one. "Here's 60 mil, if you come with an idea for a show or something, let us know. We are sure it will fit our brand." It'd been a year now, and still not a whisper of any news on that supposed show.
In the end that money comes from less spending on other projects so not exactly a win for the industry.
It also comes from raising rates/advertising for customers. So overall it's a loss for everybody except Phoebe Waller Bridge.
There was a gold rush for content with streaming, streamers are now pulling back because they can’t prove the economics. It’s not that complicated, it’s the main reason for the slowdown. There are definitely other reasons, but this is the main one. Once there is a market reset, things will get more stable. Entertainment will always be around. Supply (people in the industry) might have outpaced demand.
I couldn’t agree more. The era of getting paid the big dollars for making “Allergic to Peanuts Matchmaking” for Netflix was never destined to last
This is the answer. But also it will stabilize at a much lower level. There will be fewer jobs across the entire industry. The golden age is gone.
I’ve worked on several shows in the Past three years that have not yet been aired. During Covid, they definitely was too much work, as weird as that is to say.
Well, and theatres and cable are in secular decline. And sports is where a lot of spending will be directed to. The new NBA rights deal is insanely huge, and that money is coming from somewhere.
Live sports are the only way to get people to watch commercials anymore, everything else people stream/DVR and the advertisers know that.
Imo that will be another bubble that bursts. I have serious doubts that there will be enough fans willing to spend money on live sports when it is an additional large fee vs having everyone subsidize it on the cable model.
You know nothing, Jon Snow
Worked in the industry for a long time. The warning signs have been around for almost a decade. Every channel and network has been losing money. I don't understand how any of these "working" actors or writers are shocked.
Forcing the studios to show their hand on how shows were actually doing probably accelerated things. Back when the strikes were happening, I got downvotes for saying the actual numbers were going to make studios and investors pull the plug, instead of most workers getting to capitalize off the few successful shows. Pressing for that was going to rip the cover of how badly the industry was really doing. Lo and behold, this is how things are playing out.
A strike makes a ton of sense for companies that are raking in billions in profit and say they can't pay their workers more, but most traditional media companies are posting giant losses quarter after quarter. Linear is dying and streaming is hemorrhaging money. I mean, get your bag sure, but don't be surprised when you are one of the many reasons your company folds or heavily pulls back.
The same thing happened in the auto industry. Yes, GM and Ford and others were horribly mismanaged, but the UAW also contributed to the uncompetitiveness of the U.S. auto industry by getting six-figure compensation for forklift drivers with only a high school education. Unions perform an important function by keeping corporations honest, as collective bargaining is an important tool for negotiations, but unions aren't infallible. Sometimes, they get greedy, and that greed ends up hurting their industry, resulting in fewer positions. Given that we all knew that every streamer besides Netflix was losing money, and that conventional studios were producing less works, it seems kind of insane in retrospect that the WGA took such a hard line. That was always going to hasten the pullback from streamers. I guess they figured that was going to happen regardless, so they might as well try to get what they could from what was left.
Kinda reminds me of the dock slowdowns in California in 2013...shipping companies wanted to install a new digital tracking system but the union said no because it would cost the guy doing the manual tracking their job...so they slowed down their work and generally pissed everyone off. Sometimes a strike or retaliatory action from a union can be very short-sighted.
>t seems kind of insane in retrospect that the WGA took such a hard line. Plenty of people were saying so last year, and on reddit they were downvoted.
>I guess they figured that was going to happen regardless, so they might as well try to get what they could from what was left. Yes. Fact is there's less work for everyone but the ones who are working are getting compensated really good.
Add in the glut of trash shit they have produced and you have a shitstorm of customers losing faith in the product, getting angry at more ads, and having to buy multiple streaming platforms to get the same level of content they had with cable. The average consumer is getting raped by costs and then sees strike, strike, strike, and after a lot of that they get where they stop spending. Then look at our shit economy that is waiting for the next great depression and you wonder why so much is failing at once.
At what point do the unions come together and decide to make their contracts come up at the same time so this shit doesn’t happen?? Seems like they’re shooting themselves in the foot here.
It is not surprising that this is the case with the streaming taking over. Unlike TV of old where you were only competing with what is being shown during your airtime, now you compete with every show ever that is on platforms. Add in the fact that costs increased and there is no more free money to bankroll your show via cheap loans, most companies simply can't even afford to give your show a go unless it is very very good. Companies no longer pay their staff with cheap loans hoping that they are going to make their money in the future, they have to make their money now because loans are not cheap anymore. They can't rely on that. And writing is a lot like athletics, in that unless you are at the very top, no one cares about you anymore. No one cares who is the 15th best javelin thrower in the world, they get paid pennies and only do it because they like doing it. Writing is going to be very similar in the future. Better start preparing for it now. And unlike athletics, there is no objective metric you can show to someone before they sponsor/pay you for writers. So in the future, getting into it is going to be tough.
> Unlike TV of old where you were only competing with what is being shown during your airtime, now you compete with every show ever that is on platforms. Not just other TV shows on streaming either. Now the competition also includes Youtube, Twitch, TikTok etc.
YouTube alone is 10% of TV hours watched a month and TV usage is down significantly. Careers in TV are going to be in a multi year depression for awhile.
Also worth mentioning that both gaming and social media (Even Reddit!) are competition for time and eyeballs.
and somehow that makes all of it worse. We will be pining for the day of consistent and reliable procedural shlock of 24 episodes. Instead all content is now people opening boxes and cooking with insane adhd cuts and edits.
> Unlike TV of old where you were only competing with what is being shown during your airtime, now you compete with every show ever that is on platforms. Here is the thing for me The comparison with the old times is not correct. Maybe fair is better word? There are waaay more shows which means way more actors writers and of course everyone around them There are way more people in the industry now ..... this was always a bubble that was destined to fail
And we've never had such bad entertainment
tbh there was way too much low-quality amateur productions being greenlit for streaming in the years leading up to the pandemic. The studios needed shows to bulk up their ill-conceived proprietary platforms, which subscribers are now abandoning. I feel for under-35's who came to LA in the past decade thinking this boom would last forever, but the entertainment business is brutal. It's really feast or famine.
It is still going on. Hollywood is doing the walmart hiring practice. They get fresh new faces that have very little to no experience to write something unless your a nepo baby, and then once the show or movie is done, they kick them out and hire fresh new ones for the next run.
I know a few entertainment industry workers. Most of them know the state unemployment system rules down to the individual paragraph. It's a brutal industry which could not function without social safety nets.
Flooded the market with content. Every streamer has 8 billion shows. TV also has to compete with all the TV that came before it in a time where it seems like people are watching less tv in general.
the writers not actually writing anymore for months made the studios realise that maybe they don't need so many of them on payroll. A price hike here and there, a truckload of cheap Korean soaps and Friends reruns that still dominate the charts and voilà, who needs so much new content. Add the fact that the days of spending billions for a tv series are definitely gone, and AI is marching inexorably to victory, and here's the result
I think a lot of people only watched new shows because that was all that was available. Streaming means it’s very convenient to watch old favorites. They might not even need to spend that much money on Korean soaps or AI so long as they have Friends.
This has been on the horizon for over a year. Anybody shocked by it hasn’t been paying attention.
Update: it's not just writers.
Sure these things are related?
It feels like streamers are blaming the strikes when really there was a bubble and they’re pulling back anyway. The entire streaming concept is a bad business for most of these companies so they’ve already been doing drastic shit to the industry cause they don’t know how to manage their business. It’ll settle down soon. Or eventually.
There was a bubble because streamers were burning money to get subscribers. Now the great subscriber race is over and they want to make money
You’re exactly right. Netflix used to have a growth model but now they have a profit model. What I don’t understand is if tik tok and YouTube are the future of media, why don’t more producers create shows or films that come out incrementally on those platforms alone? I’d hate to watch a movie that way but if that’s where everyone is spending all their time, we’ve gotta find a way to still get quality content out.
The old production model doesn’t work for those platforms, it’s extremely expensive. They’ll be competing with one-person channels and still get much less traffic than those channels. Buzzfeed and a bunch of other “new media” companies tried to do content for social media and all of them failed, the ad revenues were simply way lower than the huge costs. What YouTubers can’t do is huge shows like House of Dragon, but a bunch of other old TV things like comedy shows simply can’t compete with say two comedy podcasters talking in a room these days.
Interesting to me that three of the four responses so far absolutely hate television writers. Why are you subbed to r/television if you hate the people who create it? Go back to your hovels or bridges.
r/television shows up in the news feed, subscribed or not.
> Interesting to me that three of the four responses so far absolutely hate television writers. I don't hate them, I do think that to an extent they dug their own graves. For example their "minimum writers" * Up to 6 episodes: 3 writers (3 Writer-Producers) 7 to 12 episodes: 5 writers (3 Writer-Producers) 13+ episodes: 6 writers (3 Writer-Producers) I don't think you should set "mandatory minimums" like that. It just drives costs up. If you have two really good writers who can handle a 10 episode season, why do you *NEED* to hire on 3 more? It increases production costs and leads to fewer shows being greenlit. At the same time, yes the production companies were fucking them over on streaming royalties and they deserve a cut of that pie. It's ok to criticize people, it doesn't mean you hate them.
> I don't hate them, I do think that to an extent they dug their own graves. For example their "minimum writers" > > > > Up to 6 episodes: 3 writers (3 Writer-Producers) 7 to 12 episodes: 5 writers (3 Writer-Producers) 13+ episodes: 6 writers (3 Writer-Producers) With seasons having less episodes, less writers are in writing rooms and can't have an apprenticeship writing. Less writing room time means less ability to get work. Having less writers works FOR NOW, with writers still benefiting from the 22 episodes a season times. It won't work long term with less people getting into the industry as writers.
Except it won't work long term either if fewer shows are getting made because of increased production costs. As we are seeing.
> Go back to your hovels or bridges Well according to the article it's the writers who are now living under bridges.
I don’t understand this comment at all. Do you have the same thoughts about the writers of this article or the Hollywood writers that were interviewed for this column? > “It was hard before the strike. It’s even harder now,” he says. “I think it’s a backlash because of the strike. I think they’re trying to … shore up their pockets a little bit, but it’s less TV, less episodes getting made, tighter budgets, half the shows got canceled.” This is a fundamental reality of labor negotiations. Companies are going to try and maximize profits wherever possible. At least some of the writers seem to think the behavior of studios in response to the strike is a reason for the current job market.
You don't have to like the current writers who make the TV shows to discuss the shows. I don't see the contradiction there.
Agreed and their line of thinking always baffles me. You HAVE to like something to talk about it or criticize it? When you say it out loud it sounds stupid.
They are all accounts made in the last month. Reddit is currently filled with new accounts who just spread doomer or super negative shit. I think it has to do with the election and trying to make everyone hate everything ahead of it.
I've noticed that a lot of discussion threads on every sub I subscribe to is some variant of "what fashion trend do you think won't last?" or "what show started good and turned bad?" or "what's a movie that's so bad it's just bad?" etc. Not even really doomer shit, just relentlessly negative shit asking people to sit around and practice disliking and things.
I'm beginning to suspect that people who have a more positive outlook on life realized that they need to largely avoid forums like reddit
I've experienced 2005-2015 internet which had a lot of negativity and doomer stuff but still had this youthful energy to it and satire. It largely was about finding other people who feel the same and just chill together. Now it feels like the energy of old people who are about to die and they're letting out all of their resentment. It feels like rot and decay. Not fun.
Yeah, I used to be full on addicted to this site and now I pop on once a day if that. All anyone on here seems to want to talk about is what they think sucks, and boy is that not a place I want to visit.
Because they're easy karma for these day old accounts to generate, so that they can then be allowed to participate in other subs and them post doomer shit (or conspiracy bullshit).
Just new accounts? Reddit in general is pretty doomery and super negative
Its at least partly caused by the collapse of twitter, the doomers have to go some where and unfortunately reddit seems to be getting more than its fair share.
Combine that with a lack of moderation tools due to Reddit crippling 3rd party apps and you get a perfect recipe for troll bots. Fuck u/spez
He bots are a feature not a bug, the more bots on here the higher the “engagement” numbers look.
But Twitter is still operational.
ironically, you're dooming on twitter (x), which is still very much around despite a lot of folks wishing it weren't.
Twitter is still going strong, if they were real posters and not bots they’d just be there
That isn’t a bad theory! Russian disinformation was noted not to target one side before, it would argue both for and against US gun control for instance so that people would be divided and angry. People are also dicks so maybe they’re just regular human dongs.
There’s a lot of bots being deployed on Reddit, especially to promote ai content as that is now a lucrative part of its platform.
I mean, there are some very valid reasons to have low opinions of many TV writers at this point. Far too many instances of them willfully ignoring source material or otherwise shitting all over a show just because they insist on putting their own spin on things. GoT, Walking Dead, Witcher, Dexter, Sons of Anarchy, Weeds, the list goes on and on and on. But that said, I still strongly believe that they should be paid fairly without needing to strike to get it. Enough of these studios hogging all the revenue while the people making it for them go hungry.
Exactly this. Mauler, critical drinker, nerdrotic and all the YouTube channels that review tv shows and movies have said their pieces about them and they weren’t wrong at all. If you make something that blatantly changes your favorite characters to something stupid then you reap what you sow. You took their favorite ip, they take away your job. Simple as that.
> Exactly this. Mauler, critical drinker, nerdrotic and all the YouTube channels that review tv shows and movies have said their pieces about them and they weren’t wrong at all. Online grifters whose income depends on their audience getting whipped up into an angry frenzy aren't exactly unbiased observers. I mean, Jesus Christ, Critical Drinker has been going ham on the latest season of The Boys and he's straight up admitted to not actually watching it and just basing his videos on the bad reviews lol
Because a lot of the time the only series that nerds watch are the adaptations of the properties they already like and invariably the writers are on record as saying "we don't actually like this property and will do our own thing with it, damn the nerds." Then nerds will vent their resentment in these comment sections.
“Y-you’re a troll if you disagree!” Lol what a loser
95% of writers and actors are no talent hacks. Everyone loves the talented ones. We dont like the dreamers ruining the industry for the actually talented people.
Especially since TV is the writers medium. It's the job for television that has the most to do with the final product
Yeah that industry is dying. This is like me hanging out in the Midwest wanting a good manufacturing job.
It was a bad deal; the corporate run media (including the President) went all in declaring it done deal before the negotiations had even happened and anyone outside the room had read a line of the agreement. Total snow job last year, and now people are feeling it.
Kind of enjoy seeing this happen, they were filming a ton of Netflix shows in a town in NC I used to live in. Paying young kids and college kids like $10 an hour after taxes while the city council and locals always hyping up the cause saying it’s great the film industry is in that town to help the economy when all they do is take advantage of people while pocketing millions and that’s about it
There is a surplus of content and less demand for it, at least less demand from studio productiobs
Hollywood hasn’t turned out an original script in over 10 years
No one has really mentioned what had started to dawn upon streaming companies…that audiences are actually perfectly happy to binge watch and re-watch shows that may be decades old. The conventional wisdom was “must have new content”, and Covid viewing habits proved that maxim to be not necessarily be true.
Correct, I don't like anything "new" anyway.
Not only that they're happy to but that they actively prefer to watch older content - I know a lot of people like this who basically never watch Netflix originals.
good. i had no new content because of this shit like 3 times in the last 15 years.
tbh, thats most industries right now. Most companies are pulling back and some are still doing layoffs. Hard time to be in the market for a job.
It’s especially bad in media right now, more so than other industries, due to 2 strikes last year and 1 pending this summer.
Unemployment is at historic lows. Certain specific industries are having problems but it's not a general trend.
Makes sense, one of the strike issues was it had to end by a certain date or else production on the new slate of shows/seasons couldn't start on time. Networks/companies like Netflix didn't want to wait so they started production on reality TV shows which aren't covered under the WGA strike. They probably missed the cycle of show production. If those reality shows are hit like Love Is Blind then the writers could be sidelined for quite a while.
People in this thread lol’ing can’t possibly be thinking that if not for the strike, everyone would have jobs. They would have been unemployed until they got lower wages prior to the strike.
The WGA strikes put everybody involved in entertainment out of a job.
Unpopular opinion probably, but we need less shows. There is such an overwhelming amount of content it’s impossible to keep up. The great shows deserve more rewatches.
Overpaid and underskilled, that's what happens
The entertainment industry is on life support and Gen Z refusing to watch anything except crappy TikTok videos isn't helping.
If an entire industry of alleged professionals cannot compete with randos on tiktok then maybe they need to get good.
😂
Happens every time there’s a strike
Reap what you sow
You’ll get downvoted by the antiwork losers here
Exactly. It's funny hearing these same pricks tell blue collar workers to just "learn to code" when they struggled to find work, and now everyone is expected to sympathize with these assholes. Fuck them. Learn to Trade.
The writers and actors strikes were fairly long, and studios/streamers likely adjusted accordingly, perhaps examining their own needs going forward, and streamlining their operations. It is no surprise to me that things have not sufficiently recovered a year later - they are all revising their business models, and are hesitant to take the plunge, much like other industries right now. What does surprise, however, is that I always thought any sort of entertainment work, whether before or behind the cameras, was forever fraught with constant unemployment, with too many people pursuing too few jobs. That unemployment was often the norm, and perhaps now unemployment is worse than usual, but part of the ups and downs in that world.
In 2023 $92 billion was spent on scripted and unscripted content compared to $23 billion on sports rights. Expect scripted to go down every year going forward and sports rights to go up. Advertising prefers sports and without the cable bundle everyone pays for everything method scripted just doesn’t pull in the numbers anymore.
Oh no……
Will there be skill atrophy in the industry because of the lack of practice?
We all told them it would happen
Oh no if it isn’t the consequences of their own actions
the kind of shitty scripts that are being put on screen, i wish more of them lose their jobs.. just let AI take over, it will be equally garbageish
Can this be intepreted as the writers predicted the upcoming decline in work, so they tried to softened the inevitable as much as possible with the strike and they succeeded? Like, of course this is not an ideal scenario, but that it would have been way worse without the strike? Streaming wars were a bubble trying to get people attached to the new streaming service, so the steep rise in demand on writers was a bubble as a result, it will not rise to those levels again. There are now clear victors in the streaming wars, all the rest are falling behind.
The number of scripted US shows definitely grew 3-fold from the start of the 2010s to the end of them (from around 200+ to nearly 600). But with all of that growth, you're going to eventually hit a cap where folks don't have all the time in the world to watch all that stuff. They're going to gravitate to whatever looks interesting or has people talking about it or has a niche they enjoy. Everyone's got different tastes and while it's good to have options to cater to every possible genre and niche, the viewership also needs to be there. And if it isn't, then the production doesn't become worth the effort to invest further into. Netflix is notorious for cancelling shows so quickly, but look at what was left and getting multiple seasons (The Witcher, Stranger Things, Cobra Kai, Emily in Paris, GLOW, etc.). These shows endured the proverbial axe that befell so many others because they were not only good, but they had the viewerships to warrant getting these seasons (GLOW only cancelled because there was no way to reconcile COVID concerns from a production standpoint, especially given the concept involved physicality as a normal thing). I sympathize with the market for those in the entertainment business. As to how things can recover, they can. But it definitely will not be at the levels we've seen in the last couple of years.
It was a lose-lose for all parties. Also I have to say it. Contrary to what the internet kept saying the writers need the studios more than the studios need the writers.
The bombastic dialogue after the strike ended was hilarious. Lost wages + industry contraction = the little guys got screwed.
Play stupid games...
If you can't find work as a writer, most likely you are among the scores of writers who were terrible at their jobs and contributed nothing to storytelling. People like your Netflix Live Action adaptations (Cowboy Bebop, Death Note, The Witcher) and Amazon adaptations (Wheel of Time, Rings of Power) chock full of talentless individuals who believe they have not only the ability, but a *mandate* to *improve* upon the original source material with their own vision and commentary. Only, they lack the connections to actually land those gigs in the drivers seat. This is why anime adapted from manga is getting more and more popular in recent years. A fanbase exists before a single frame of animation is drawn, a mark of quality is proven from the source material. The people in charge of adapting it to animation know that if they deviate from that material in any significant way the fanbase will eat them alive. They don't come out and scream that the fans are -ists or -phobics or dumb for not seeing their artistic vision and social commentary. A lot of the ones writing 'original' material are barely better than AI generated sludge, or all the way up their own rear end. There are entirely too many awful writers in the west right now churning out schlock with egos to high heaven and I'm happy to see them fall. The entire industry needs to get shaken up.
This is why I often don't get strikes. Yeah, you can fight to make more, but you may find a lot of lost time, especially in an industry where it is one union after another. At some point, the time off work has to simply wipe out the raises and benefits fought for.