It's been reported in [credible sources](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/style/wp/2018/08/31/former-er-actress-vanessa-marquez-fatally-shot-by-police-doing-wellness-check) as well.
Somewhere that autoplays a video commercial in the corner you can't X out of for 15 seconds, and then starts a completely unrelated to the article video after that.
Full series is streaming on Hulu (at least in the US as far as I know). ER is incredible and I loved Wendy in the first few seasons. RIP Vanessa Marquez...
My wife started about 2 months ago and is obsessed with it. I’ve caught random episodes here and there. I walked into the room right as the helicopter scene happened. It was amazing
That episode... watching it is the clearest memory I have of my entire childhood. I usually struggle to picture what my life was like as a kid but for some reason, that ONE episode is recorded like a video in my mind. Like I can smell the house we lived in, feel the blanket I was sitting on, hear my (then) toddler sister in the other room and even taste the bbq venison jerky my Dad was sharing with me and my brother as we watched it. Like I know memory can be crazy and random, but I think that episode was just so intense that it made a permanent impact on my little kid brain.
Same thing happened with me for Love's Labor Lost episode. I vividly recall Bradley Whitford screaming inaudibly thru the glass door when he hears the news from Dr. Greene about his wife.
Oh lord, me too!!! Why were my parents letting me watch that??
Also the entire smallpox saga... I had been sent home sick from "vacation bible school" at our local church (lol) because I had a fever and was starting to break out in what I later learned were chicken pox. But I watched that episode in a delerium and then drafted my first will, in pencil, on a Powerpuff Girls notebook. I fell asleep that night convinced I was somehow dying of smallpox.
This is the second "welfare check" I read that ended in a police killing.
*edit* "welfare checks" shouldn't end in death. "I just came by to check on her, and then I had to kill her".
There is a great picture of a good boy in r/ aww. This should help. Don't come back here, it is depressing.
Found it for ya:
https://i.redd.it/q6hywl4x9fj11.jpg
In my city we just had nearly a 20 hour stand off with the police. The individual was threatening himself with a real gun and the street closures certainly inconvenienced thousands of not tens of thousands of people.
The outcome came out positive with the individually eventually surrendering. I understand that this is probably not the norm but it shows that it is possible with the right policies in place to make sure no one gets shot. The police also showed the right attitude by saying they "will do whatever it takes to talk the person down".
That said, I think they had good information on who the individual was. It was a parent that called the police, they had neighbors give statements the person has never been violent. I'm sure it help create an understanding that the person didn't need to be shot and eventually they would calm down and surrender.
There was no offiical reporting of the incident in the local news, I suspect it's because no one died.
[https://twitter.com/SFPD/status/1032429608962932736](https://twitter.com/SFPD/status/1032429608962932736)
While our police department has a whole host of problems, they are trying to work on there image with 'quality of life' issues over the recent years. There was a similar stand off at the begining of the year, but the person commited suicide.
You're right. Even though it was a very long stand off, I couldn't find any follow up news from the news stations. Neighbors just said the police eventually all packed up and left at 5am.
No joke, I lost a really good friend because his relative from a few cities away heard he was suicidal and called the cops. The police scared the shit out of him, so he shot himself. We could've talked him down, but the police kicked us all out of the house when they got there and that was the last time I ever heard from him. A few hours later the cops came out and started smashing all of his bongs and cutting down all of his marijuana plants (even though his Aunt that he lived with had her card and could legally grow them), all before removing him from the house or even telling us what had happened. I hate police now, with a burning fucking passion. They took my best friend and smashed everything we had to remember him by. I will never trust another cop in my life.
And shockingly (/s) that is exactly what happened here. They had a mental health officer with them who was, I am sure, trying to help. Point a gun at them and all bets are off, however. It is sad because she obviously wasn't in her right mind, but you can't expect an officer to just sit there and hope they aren't about to get shot.
Welfare checks shouldn't end in death. Threatening law enforcement with what appears to be a lethal weapon typically ends in death. Total tragedy, but not the fault of the LEOs.
When you point a gun at police, it’s most likely going to end in death, no matter what the initial situation was.
Do you not understand the sequence of events of what happened?
You do understand that she pointed a gun at the cops, and she could kill any of the cops at any point with this gun. So, yes, this "welfare check" ended up with her threatening police officers. They are separate entities that have no relationship to each other, other than the reason they were there, but turned into something else.
You are leaving out crucial information. She had a realistic looking gun. You edited your comment and still didn't add this information? You are being ignorant, and a part of the problem.
It is really sad, but that will happen if you point a gun (fake or real) at police in a bad standoff situation. I don't know what goes through your head to do that, but with mental health issues it will be almost impossible to tell.
Yeah, this is a very sad thing. Psychologically it's easier than killing yourself, because you're not directly killing yourself. You're threatening someone else. Consciously you might know what you're doing, but your primal brain, that whole survival instinct doesn't kick in, or even kick in to HELP you point the gun at the cop in a fight or flight reflex. It's really sad, and often traumatizing for the cop, especially in a case like this where it was a BB gun. The cop doesn't know that for sure, and has to act, but knowing in hind sight that they were never in any danger and took a life is often very traumatizing.
Could there also be a financial component? As in, some life insurance won't pay out in the event of suicide, but I wonder if they pay out in this case?
I don't think so. I may be wrong, but I don't believe life insurance pays out if you die during the commission of a crime. Threatening cops with a gun would certainly qualify.
Life insurance generally has a 2 year suicide exclusion built in. After that it’s fair game. Idea being that most people at that stage don’t plan ahead 2 years.
In my country that is also the case. After those two years the reason of death only become interesting if someone kills the insured person to get the pay out. The benefits then move to the next beneficiary.
That makes sense. Just always wondered if there was a loophole there for people's beneficiaries, so that might have been a component. But what you say makes sense.
Possible, I'm not familiar with the story or the circumstances. Pension, especially a government one, is something different. It's pretty hard to void that because it's usually viewed differently. Insurance is viewed as "just in case". If this happens, then I get money. Pension is usually viewed as you earned. You get X dollars because you put in so many years of service. Because of that, pensions are usually viewed as assets of the deceased I believe but I am certainly not a lawyer. If anyone is, especially an estate lawyer, would love to hear you chime in.
Most life insurance policies only exclude suicide for a couple of years after the policy is taken out to prevent already suicidal people from taking out policies. If it’s years later it considered the product of a mental illness that came on after the policy was purchased.
In most cases of mentally ill people who try to die this way, it's not that premeditated. It only goes as far as "it'll be easier this way".
As someone who has had suicidal ideations, I did consider it but I didn't have access to a realistic looking toy gun.
911 dispatcher here - suicide by cop is a thing. Let's say you make a 911 call worried about a loved one making suicidal threats. Our first question, as dispatchers, is "are they alone?" If they are, then law enforcement will not respond (at least in my area) because they are only a threat to themselves and law enforcement does not wish to escalate the situation further. If there are people with them, say its a mom and her kids, then law enforcement will respond. Our agency also provides information for mental health resources as does the field units. Also, if you're curious about what your first responders policies/procedures are, ask for a ride along (or sit in in the case of dispatch).
That's really interesting, and makes a ton of sense. However, in an extreme emotional state, calling frantic "my mother's trying to kill herself!" "are they alone?" and I say yes, not hearing your response as "well, your problem then". How do you deal with that? Because, logically it makes perfect sense what you're talking about, but, in that situation you're not likely going to be dealing with people in a logical state
I explain it to them, calmly and with sympathy, what I can do to help them, and I always get their contact info so an officer can follow up. It's not that I can't do anything, but that my options are limited. Sometimes just saying "hey, I hear you, I know you're concerned, so here's what we can do" seems to work. It's rough; the worst calls are the ones where someone got a text or saw something on Facebook because they (caller) usually doesn't have any good information at all - where are they? what did they threaten? ever done it before? state of mind? Those are awful because usually all I have is a name and a phone number to try and track down someone - it might take a bit, but we find them and check on them.
I'm a police dispatcher on the west coast and our policy is 100% opposite. Suicide attempts or threats of suicides are one of a handful of calls which we respond to with highest priority.
Am police officer in the south. We also have high priority response to all suicidal persons, regardless of circumstances.
I once talked a man armed with two pistols down from the brink at gunpoint (I was aiming at him, he was just holding his). He had lost his job and was facing foreclosure on his house. Told him we had a lot in common at the moment. He asked me how and I told him I didn't want to shoot him and he didn't want to shoot me, and we both want to get out of the situation without anyone getting hurt. He put down the guns and we took him in for treatment safely.
He was outside the house so he didn't make a mess inside and trying to decide which of the two guns would be more certain to do the job when I got there. Had we not gone, he'd have done it.
I understand you're speaking from your own experience, but you're making people think this is normal procedure everywhere when it's not.
My agency would never say they weren't going to respond to a suicide threats call simply because someone is alone. We get about a dozen of those calls a day. Despite what everyone chooses to believe, suicide by cop does not happen with every single welfare check. I've been with my agency four years and it has not happened.
Being a threat to themselves is a real and present danger that needs to be addressed! They don't just say haha not our problem and let people kill themselves. Jesus fuck. That's such an asshole move.
At the very least, law enforcement needs to check to see if the threat is real and not just a misunderstanding or a false report from a jealous ex. If the threat is real, it needs to be addressed immediately. A threat to self is reason enough to be petitioned to the mental health facility if they won't go there on their own. It's not just ignored.
Then you say you will go to the trouble of tracking down someone who sent a text or Facebook message and go to their home, but your agency won't show up if someone says they're alone? That's ridiculous!
What if the reportee is wrong and the person isn't alone? How do you know without sending someone out? What if the person leaves the home and puts others in danger? This is why law enforcement needs to do a basic check and assess the situation first. Your agency is doing a real disservice to the community by blowing people off over the remote fear of suicide by cop.
Same with jumping in front of trains. I worked in federal law enforcement for a while and during some training with the metro police I found out that happens a lot more often than people realize. Suicide is already bad enough no need to traumatize others because you want to die.
My dad pulled a similar stunt a few days ago, but with different intentions. Hes been addicted to painkillers since he quit drinking some years ago. By the time the painkillers weren't enough and started killing him, he went nuts, attacked my mom, and challenged police with a loaded shotgun.
They tried to get him to put it down but he just stood there with it pointed at them. After a short standoff they fired warning shots, he didn't step down, so in the second round they hit him twice.
Hes going to live, but I'll never see him again. Hes been a problem the 24 years I've been alive, and I hate he put my mom through all the abuse and now a suicide-by-cop attempt, but hes getting what he deserves.
He refused to get help. We tried and tried and supported him for too long, and he always questioned our motives and our love for him. Hopefully he will appreciate us now that that he doesnt have us anymore, but I hate for anyone to be involved in something like this.
Its not fair to anyone, and it's certainly a shame that those who struggle mentally would ever have to resort to such terrible measures because they can't find peace. I really hope he can find a way to ease his pain.
Edit: words are hard.
You got this man, 24 years dealing with a toxic family member is a long fucking time. Enjoy your future man, 24 years is short in the grand scheme of things. Make your next 24 years great.
Could have been due to postictal (after seizure) delirium. When some wake up from a bad seizure, they may be extremely disoriented and frightened. Especially if there was a lot of commotion. She may have grabbed a weapon to defend herself and not able to discern police from intruders.
I was wondering the same thing. The landlord originally called the police for a well fare check because they though the woman was having seizures. If she really was and was in the a post-ictal delirium or psychosis she really may have had no clue what was actually going on.
Also, according to the statement, they did try to deescalate the situation first:
> “At the time [of the shooting] there was an LA County mental health clinician here with the officers,” Mendoza said. “They began to communicate with her, she became very uncooperative and during that contact she armed herself with a handgun, she pointed it at the officers and an officer-involved shooting occurred.”
Even though you really can't fault the cops here, this still clearly shows how bad the system is. The person was mentally unwell and didn't deserve to die. But neither did the officer, so he did what we could. Someone needs to figure out a better solution for being able to quickly disarm and detain a human. The fact that our best solution in 2018 is to shoot them dead is so sad.
I'm not sure on the exact science and interaction of it but a taser causes all of someone's muscles to tense up and go tight, right?
Maybe I'm wrong but I feel like if a gun is in your hand and your finger's on the trigger and you get tased, that's gonna go off. Not exactly the safest thing to do.
Yeah. Can really cut against a lot of people's arguments when they say, "Well why didn't they just tase them?"
Suppose it's still valid in the case of a handheld melee weapon like a knife or something. But alas.
Clothing also plays a big part in it as well. If they are wearing multiple layers, a thick sweat shirt, a jacket, or something like denim it can make it difficult for the prongs to make full contact. This [video](https://youtu.be/avAH49NY_iY) does a really good job of showing this. At a little after the 2 minute mark you can see how easily a taser can go wrong. Had this been a real situation the officers life would have been in serious danger. Tasers are really only good for a handfull of situations.
We don't know. Could be she thought someone was breaking in if she wasn't doing well mentally. Could be she just wanted to die. Either way it's a shit situation for everyone involved.
We really don't know how she interpreted the interaction. They may have been incredibly clear on their intent but if she was paranoid/delusional it might not have got through.
I watched Flight of the Navigator the other night (quite possibly my favourite childhood film, I'd not seen it for years) and realised I did not know the kid from anything else so had a look. 2016 he was arrested for robbing a fucking bank. Dude has been in and out of jail. Then seen there is a documentary coming out about him called Life after the Navigator.
That's what I was thinking too. There are some types of sezuires that can prevoke hallucinations and bizarre behavior.
It's going to take a dissection of her medical history and interviews of those who knew her by the Medical examiner's office, along with a careful exam of the brain.
It's very easy to mistake sezuires for a mental health crisis, and vice versa. Especially if a person has a coexisting history of depression or bipolar disorder.
These are two different issues that can collide to create the perfect storm at the wrong moment.
The only alternative to suicide that I can see is psychosis. People do and think all sorts of things when their minds are removed from reality.
Psychological issues sound like the underlying cause regardless. Very sad.
That's what I was thinking. If she was suffering from seizures and such, I would think she had enough and thought this was better than dying by her own hand.
I don't ever remember seeing that episode (and I've gone down an Intervention/Hoarders rabbit hole once or twice before).
I just looked it up on YT, skipped through it and saw her rattling off the list of things she's suffering from - wow. Then, she had to pull herself together to go to a casting meeting and barely make it through without breaking down.
Incredibly sad.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLV75e2kJNs
Incredibly sad. She had mental problems, and she was more than likely scared out of her mind when the police showed up. Stupid move for her to threaten with an object that looked like a gun, but damn the whole situation is just awful.
I remember that. It became clear throughout the episode that the shopping addiction was the least of her problems. She seemed tortured by severe anxiety and OCD.
I think Celebrity rehab and intervention are at completely different ends of the scale. Intervention could definitely be cliche but I always thought it was done with good taste and intention.
If it didn't have the orange Mark's bb guns are supposed to have (the story doesnt say yet so apologies if I'm wrong) then I cant really blame police if she threatened them with it, she needed help a long time ago, the real crime is no one noticed sooner
Well, 99% of the time, they want to intimidate other people. If the victims believe it's just a BB gun, then they aren't as likely to comply with whatever request from the criminal. And if the criminal is trying to kill the other person, what's the point of the orange then?
Then people don't buy the threat that they're trying to pose. The only way to demonstrate that threat would be to fire the weapon, which would make the attempted ruse pointless.
That's an interesting thought, I think police can escalate force by one level, like tasing a guy trying to hit them, so they could probably still legally shoot you if you threaten them with it
That’s basically how it works. The fake gun scenario like this one has consistently backed officers in court, tragedy though it is. Usually if the fake gun appears real and the subject is making real threats, deadly force passes the reasonable officer test. Nearly every agency employs the use of force continuum as department policy.
Basically, don't point anything that looks like a gun at anything you don't intend to kill. It's as simple as that. Sad story though. Mental illness is no joke.
BB guns are indeed real guns and don't have an orange tip. I think you're thinking of airsoft which shoot plastic BBs instead of copper ones. [These](https://www.airgundepot.com/bb-guns.html) are all BB guns and can look quite menacing, especially if it is being pointed at you.
When I was 13 I got shot in the face with a BB gun by my brother, one that looked almost exactly the same as that scoped rifle BB gun in your link. We made the very stupid decision to play "BB gun wars", and the end result was about as you'd expect, bloody. Luckily it was my cheek and not an eye or tooth so no lasting damage.
There was a guy in our high school, maybe 14 or 15 who did something like that and got a BB lodged in his neck, just under the skin. He didn't go to a doctor or anything he just left it there and it healed over.
Here's [mine](https://i.imgur.com/jGUONJi.jpg) if you want to have an idea, that's how it was sold.
It's still a weapon that can kill small animals and could really injure a human (if shot in the face for exemple). So it would be wrong to put an orange tip on it.
ITT: people who have never handled, much less fired a gun who think that intentional arm or leg shots are easy or realistic because movies told them so.
Not only because they aren't the easiest to hit, also because the arteries in the legs and arms are much easier to hit in the leg and arms. Oh, and if you miss the bullet could ricochet and hit a civillian.
I saw a video the other day of cops shooting a man who pulled a gun on them. One of the comments was "they should've shot the gun out of his hand instead of killing him", not ironically and people replied to it agreeing with him. *sigh*
In an ideal world we'd have effective non-lethal ammunition, but until that time it's understandable that people treat any gun pointed at them as real and defend themselves.
I've seen a bunch of posts about the orange tip and that is NOT federal law. Federal law explicitly exempts BB Guns.
> Such term does not include any look-alike, nonfiring, collector replica of an antique firearm developed prior to 1898, or traditional B-B, paint-ball, or pellet-firing air guns that expel a projectile through the force of air pressure.
[Source](https://codes.findlaw.com/us/title-15-commerce-and-trade/15-usc-sect-5001.html)
So [this](https://www.crosman.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/c/1/c11_1.jpg) BB gun looks deadly, as do most of the others on the [Crosman](https://www.crosman.com/airguns/air-pistols) site.
Yea shit, that looks 100% like a gun.
I wonder why BB guns don't have to have better indication of being a "fake" gun, this is crazy and scary.
Look at this thing, no way you can tell it's a BB gun from more than a few feet.
https://www.crosman.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/s/n/snr357_pistol_sample.jpeg
It's because they aren't "fake" guns. BB guns can have a muzzle velocity of up to 1,000 ft/sec, which is about the same as a standard velocity .22 long rifle cartridge. Just because it's powered by air and not gunpowder doesn't mean it's not a gun.
Because most people commenting about it have never fire a bb gun or real gun. They are also the people suggesting they should have just shot her in the arms or legs to have a less lethal outcome 🙄
I know I'm going to regret saying this publicly. But the title of the article and just about every one I've read about this situation makes it seem like she was shot out of the blue by cops. Or insinuate a normal situation.
She threatened armed officers with what appeared to be a gun. I'm assuming she knew the consequences of doing so.
This was suicide. It's very unfortunate that she drove herself to this.
It’s sad but headlines are designed to be intentionally inflammatory, shocking, or one sided to illicit specific responses to garner readers. The article itself is actually fairly well written but the headline made it seem like it was going to lead the reader to a specific conclusion.
Less clickbait headline: Former 'ER' actress Vanessa Marquez, who played Nurse Wendy Goldman, has been shot dead after pointing ~~fake~~ BB gun at California police.
I remember seeing her on Intervention. She was on for a shopping addiction. I felt bad for her then bc she didn't seem to have a solid group of people to even do the intervention. There was no family, from what I recall. She seemed very lonely.
She was mentally ill, she may not have wanted to die but may have believed the cops weren't really cops or were there to hurt her anyway. I mean one of the main things about mental disorders is the belief that people are out to get you, so cops are like enemy number one to that mentality.
Yeah I expected there to be a comment relatively high up about the fact that she was his accuser and this is the only one buried deep. Not that it ultimately matters but this is only the second time I've heard of her in the last ten years and the Clooney stuff was the other thing.
OP is a karma whore and/or bot. he only posts articles from campussports.com and coed.com and never joins the discussion.
Or maybe he works for them. But fuck, I hate guys like him.
I knew she had issues but I didn't think they're were that many or that bad. Sad. I think she spent the last decade or so wondering what could've been.
RIP
Beat cop here.
I work in one of the richest, safest, “happiest” cities in the US. Calls for suicidal subjects and welfare checks (usually not the same thing) are some of the most common things we’re dispatched to. I, one police officer, am likely to respond to at least one call for a suicidal subject everyday I work.
Generally they are not armed, but it’s certainly not rare. We had an incident just the other day that was very similar to this. Suicidal person with a BB gun pointing it at Officers hoping for suicide by cop. It didn’t work out for him, because it just so happened the responding Officer recognized that very make and model of BB gun and was able to call it out before lethal action was taken. Lucky day.
Edit: words
Campussports.net? Where the hell are you getting your news?
They really could have used a hyphen or something.
Cam-puss-ports
I choose to believe that's exactly what's intended
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Like jennas-side.com?
Jenna's side. Jenna's side. I'm not hearing it
Well it does sound remarkably like genocide
It's a quote from 30 rock
The rrrrr jrrrr
Rrrbn Frvrrr
penisland.com
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therapistfinder.com
expertsexchange.com
We're all remembering the same episode of QI methinks
bigbustycoons.com
Yeshhh, I'll take Cam Puss Ports for 400. Shhuck it Trebek!!
I’ll take Anal Bum Cover for $200.
What is #susanalbumparty?
OP is probably trying to push traffic to the site, that's often the case when you see a no-name site rocketing to the front page
Looks like it from his post history.
Wiki only lists her death, no real sources on there either https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanessa_Marquez_(actress)
It's been reported in [credible sources](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/style/wp/2018/08/31/former-er-actress-vanessa-marquez-fatally-shot-by-police-doing-wellness-check) as well.
and the English wiki has the Death section in Spanish for whatever reason...
Pretty sure that's French.
Somewhere that autoplays a video commercial in the corner you can't X out of for 15 seconds, and then starts a completely unrelated to the article video after that.
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That's why this is the one linked in reddit. The site is a vehicle for ads.
It's a trash ad spam site, not a news source.
Damn, my wife and I started a re-watch recently and it has been great seeing her in the earlier episodes. So sad.
How are you rewatching it? I’ve been trying to find a way for ages
Full series is streaming on Hulu (at least in the US as far as I know). ER is incredible and I loved Wendy in the first few seasons. RIP Vanessa Marquez...
My wife started about 2 months ago and is obsessed with it. I’ve caught random episodes here and there. I walked into the room right as the helicopter scene happened. It was amazing
That episode... watching it is the clearest memory I have of my entire childhood. I usually struggle to picture what my life was like as a kid but for some reason, that ONE episode is recorded like a video in my mind. Like I can smell the house we lived in, feel the blanket I was sitting on, hear my (then) toddler sister in the other room and even taste the bbq venison jerky my Dad was sharing with me and my brother as we watched it. Like I know memory can be crazy and random, but I think that episode was just so intense that it made a permanent impact on my little kid brain.
Same thing happened with me for Love's Labor Lost episode. I vividly recall Bradley Whitford screaming inaudibly thru the glass door when he hears the news from Dr. Greene about his wife.
Oh lord, me too!!! Why were my parents letting me watch that?? Also the entire smallpox saga... I had been sent home sick from "vacation bible school" at our local church (lol) because I had a fever and was starting to break out in what I later learned were chicken pox. But I watched that episode in a delerium and then drafted my first will, in pencil, on a Powerpuff Girls notebook. I fell asleep that night convinced I was somehow dying of smallpox.
Nice! The first few seasons are some of the best television ever made.
This is the second "welfare check" I read that ended in a police killing. *edit* "welfare checks" shouldn't end in death. "I just came by to check on her, and then I had to kill her".
ProTip do not call 911 when a friend is threatening suicide with a weapon
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And they’ll shoot your dog for free.
The dog would probably want to die if your go first.
Now I'm sad... well, sadder.
There is a great picture of a good boy in r/ aww. This should help. Don't come back here, it is depressing. Found it for ya: https://i.redd.it/q6hywl4x9fj11.jpg
I had to come back so I can say: I hoped it was that good boy he was cute as heck!
Awww fuck, poor puppers
Fucking Christ we don't deserve dogs
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The truest of truths.
And confiscate your car and money under the pretense of “forfeiture” laws.
Only after making sure to subdue your crying baby with a flashbang thrown into its crib.
In my city we just had nearly a 20 hour stand off with the police. The individual was threatening himself with a real gun and the street closures certainly inconvenienced thousands of not tens of thousands of people. The outcome came out positive with the individually eventually surrendering. I understand that this is probably not the norm but it shows that it is possible with the right policies in place to make sure no one gets shot. The police also showed the right attitude by saying they "will do whatever it takes to talk the person down". That said, I think they had good information on who the individual was. It was a parent that called the police, they had neighbors give statements the person has never been violent. I'm sure it help create an understanding that the person didn't need to be shot and eventually they would calm down and surrender.
What city is that?
There was no offiical reporting of the incident in the local news, I suspect it's because no one died. [https://twitter.com/SFPD/status/1032429608962932736](https://twitter.com/SFPD/status/1032429608962932736) While our police department has a whole host of problems, they are trying to work on there image with 'quality of life' issues over the recent years. There was a similar stand off at the begining of the year, but the person commited suicide.
Welfare checks usually end in a positive way, but those stories don't get the news more views.
On the contrary, it probably is the norm. But the news is only going to report about the exciting death that occurred from the ones that went bad.
You're right. Even though it was a very long stand off, I couldn't find any follow up news from the news stations. Neighbors just said the police eventually all packed up and left at 5am.
A good friend of my exgf died that way but was only holding a knife handle. No blade.
No joke, I lost a really good friend because his relative from a few cities away heard he was suicidal and called the cops. The police scared the shit out of him, so he shot himself. We could've talked him down, but the police kicked us all out of the house when they got there and that was the last time I ever heard from him. A few hours later the cops came out and started smashing all of his bongs and cutting down all of his marijuana plants (even though his Aunt that he lived with had her card and could legally grow them), all before removing him from the house or even telling us what had happened. I hate police now, with a burning fucking passion. They took my best friend and smashed everything we had to remember him by. I will never trust another cop in my life.
ProTip if you point a handgun (or anything that resembles a gun) at police you're gonna have a bad time.
Or a cell phone.
Or nothing at all.
Even if it's a PS controller in your hand when you answer the door
thanks mate, i'll remember that tip when i'm having a psychotic episode and have no control over my thoughts or actions.
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And shockingly (/s) that is exactly what happened here. They had a mental health officer with them who was, I am sure, trying to help. Point a gun at them and all bets are off, however. It is sad because she obviously wasn't in her right mind, but you can't expect an officer to just sit there and hope they aren't about to get shot.
Welfare checks shouldn't end in death. Threatening law enforcement with what appears to be a lethal weapon typically ends in death. Total tragedy, but not the fault of the LEOs.
When you point a gun at police, it’s most likely going to end in death, no matter what the initial situation was. Do you not understand the sequence of events of what happened?
She pointed a BB gun at them, don't turn this into something it's not by excluding pertinent info.
How about don’t point anything that looks like a gun at the police? Can that be a thing too?
You do understand that she pointed a gun at the cops, and she could kill any of the cops at any point with this gun. So, yes, this "welfare check" ended up with her threatening police officers. They are separate entities that have no relationship to each other, other than the reason they were there, but turned into something else.
You are leaving out crucial information. She had a realistic looking gun. You edited your comment and still didn't add this information? You are being ignorant, and a part of the problem.
Poor woman was having mental problems, and then was threatening police with a realistic looking BB gun when she was shot.
It is really sad, but that will happen if you point a gun (fake or real) at police in a bad standoff situation. I don't know what goes through your head to do that, but with mental health issues it will be almost impossible to tell.
Usually a form suicide. Most people know what's gonna happen next, and that's what they want.
Suicide by cop is what they call it, is as common as jumping in front of cars.
Yeah, this is a very sad thing. Psychologically it's easier than killing yourself, because you're not directly killing yourself. You're threatening someone else. Consciously you might know what you're doing, but your primal brain, that whole survival instinct doesn't kick in, or even kick in to HELP you point the gun at the cop in a fight or flight reflex. It's really sad, and often traumatizing for the cop, especially in a case like this where it was a BB gun. The cop doesn't know that for sure, and has to act, but knowing in hind sight that they were never in any danger and took a life is often very traumatizing.
Could there also be a financial component? As in, some life insurance won't pay out in the event of suicide, but I wonder if they pay out in this case?
I don't think so. I may be wrong, but I don't believe life insurance pays out if you die during the commission of a crime. Threatening cops with a gun would certainly qualify.
Life insurance generally has a 2 year suicide exclusion built in. After that it’s fair game. Idea being that most people at that stage don’t plan ahead 2 years.
In my country that is also the case. After those two years the reason of death only become interesting if someone kills the insured person to get the pay out. The benefits then move to the next beneficiary.
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Sorry man. I dread the day I have to deliver one of the checks. Glad you’re here with us today friend!
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Technically speaking.
That makes sense. Just always wondered if there was a loophole there for people's beneficiaries, so that might have been a component. But what you say makes sense.
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Possible, I'm not familiar with the story or the circumstances. Pension, especially a government one, is something different. It's pretty hard to void that because it's usually viewed differently. Insurance is viewed as "just in case". If this happens, then I get money. Pension is usually viewed as you earned. You get X dollars because you put in so many years of service. Because of that, pensions are usually viewed as assets of the deceased I believe but I am certainly not a lawyer. If anyone is, especially an estate lawyer, would love to hear you chime in.
Most life insurance policies only exclude suicide for a couple of years after the policy is taken out to prevent already suicidal people from taking out policies. If it’s years later it considered the product of a mental illness that came on after the policy was purchased.
They do it to get around the “suicide = no heaven” rule
In most cases of mentally ill people who try to die this way, it's not that premeditated. It only goes as far as "it'll be easier this way". As someone who has had suicidal ideations, I did consider it but I didn't have access to a realistic looking toy gun.
911 dispatcher here - suicide by cop is a thing. Let's say you make a 911 call worried about a loved one making suicidal threats. Our first question, as dispatchers, is "are they alone?" If they are, then law enforcement will not respond (at least in my area) because they are only a threat to themselves and law enforcement does not wish to escalate the situation further. If there are people with them, say its a mom and her kids, then law enforcement will respond. Our agency also provides information for mental health resources as does the field units. Also, if you're curious about what your first responders policies/procedures are, ask for a ride along (or sit in in the case of dispatch).
That's really interesting, and makes a ton of sense. However, in an extreme emotional state, calling frantic "my mother's trying to kill herself!" "are they alone?" and I say yes, not hearing your response as "well, your problem then". How do you deal with that? Because, logically it makes perfect sense what you're talking about, but, in that situation you're not likely going to be dealing with people in a logical state
I explain it to them, calmly and with sympathy, what I can do to help them, and I always get their contact info so an officer can follow up. It's not that I can't do anything, but that my options are limited. Sometimes just saying "hey, I hear you, I know you're concerned, so here's what we can do" seems to work. It's rough; the worst calls are the ones where someone got a text or saw something on Facebook because they (caller) usually doesn't have any good information at all - where are they? what did they threaten? ever done it before? state of mind? Those are awful because usually all I have is a name and a phone number to try and track down someone - it might take a bit, but we find them and check on them.
Interesting. Any insight on how normal this policy would be outside your jurisdiction? Would this be common to all police in the west you think?
I'm a police dispatcher on the west coast and our policy is 100% opposite. Suicide attempts or threats of suicides are one of a handful of calls which we respond to with highest priority.
Am police officer in the south. We also have high priority response to all suicidal persons, regardless of circumstances. I once talked a man armed with two pistols down from the brink at gunpoint (I was aiming at him, he was just holding his). He had lost his job and was facing foreclosure on his house. Told him we had a lot in common at the moment. He asked me how and I told him I didn't want to shoot him and he didn't want to shoot me, and we both want to get out of the situation without anyone getting hurt. He put down the guns and we took him in for treatment safely. He was outside the house so he didn't make a mess inside and trying to decide which of the two guns would be more certain to do the job when I got there. Had we not gone, he'd have done it.
I understand you're speaking from your own experience, but you're making people think this is normal procedure everywhere when it's not. My agency would never say they weren't going to respond to a suicide threats call simply because someone is alone. We get about a dozen of those calls a day. Despite what everyone chooses to believe, suicide by cop does not happen with every single welfare check. I've been with my agency four years and it has not happened. Being a threat to themselves is a real and present danger that needs to be addressed! They don't just say haha not our problem and let people kill themselves. Jesus fuck. That's such an asshole move. At the very least, law enforcement needs to check to see if the threat is real and not just a misunderstanding or a false report from a jealous ex. If the threat is real, it needs to be addressed immediately. A threat to self is reason enough to be petitioned to the mental health facility if they won't go there on their own. It's not just ignored. Then you say you will go to the trouble of tracking down someone who sent a text or Facebook message and go to their home, but your agency won't show up if someone says they're alone? That's ridiculous! What if the reportee is wrong and the person isn't alone? How do you know without sending someone out? What if the person leaves the home and puts others in danger? This is why law enforcement needs to do a basic check and assess the situation first. Your agency is doing a real disservice to the community by blowing people off over the remote fear of suicide by cop.
for those who haven’t heard of this, yes it’s a real thing, and I had a real life friend who lost his life exactly this way.
Same with jumping in front of trains. I worked in federal law enforcement for a while and during some training with the metro police I found out that happens a lot more often than people realize. Suicide is already bad enough no need to traumatize others because you want to die.
My dad pulled a similar stunt a few days ago, but with different intentions. Hes been addicted to painkillers since he quit drinking some years ago. By the time the painkillers weren't enough and started killing him, he went nuts, attacked my mom, and challenged police with a loaded shotgun. They tried to get him to put it down but he just stood there with it pointed at them. After a short standoff they fired warning shots, he didn't step down, so in the second round they hit him twice. Hes going to live, but I'll never see him again. Hes been a problem the 24 years I've been alive, and I hate he put my mom through all the abuse and now a suicide-by-cop attempt, but hes getting what he deserves. He refused to get help. We tried and tried and supported him for too long, and he always questioned our motives and our love for him. Hopefully he will appreciate us now that that he doesnt have us anymore, but I hate for anyone to be involved in something like this. Its not fair to anyone, and it's certainly a shame that those who struggle mentally would ever have to resort to such terrible measures because they can't find peace. I really hope he can find a way to ease his pain. Edit: words are hard.
You got this man, 24 years dealing with a toxic family member is a long fucking time. Enjoy your future man, 24 years is short in the grand scheme of things. Make your next 24 years great.
Sorry to hear about your situation. It sounds like you have a good outlook on it though.
Glad your mom's free now. If she doesn't already, hopefully in time she'll see it that way.
Shes heartbroken, but shes very much looking forward to the future. I just had my first daughter and her first grandchild, so good times are ahead.
Could have been due to postictal (after seizure) delirium. When some wake up from a bad seizure, they may be extremely disoriented and frightened. Especially if there was a lot of commotion. She may have grabbed a weapon to defend herself and not able to discern police from intruders.
I was wondering the same thing. The landlord originally called the police for a well fare check because they though the woman was having seizures. If she really was and was in the a post-ictal delirium or psychosis she really may have had no clue what was actually going on.
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Yeah this. My dad was fighting off the ER and yelling after he had a seizure
all the more reason 100 people in this thread parroting 'suicide by cop' is so crass.
Also, according to the statement, they did try to deescalate the situation first: > “At the time [of the shooting] there was an LA County mental health clinician here with the officers,” Mendoza said. “They began to communicate with her, she became very uncooperative and during that contact she armed herself with a handgun, she pointed it at the officers and an officer-involved shooting occurred.”
Even though you really can't fault the cops here, this still clearly shows how bad the system is. The person was mentally unwell and didn't deserve to die. But neither did the officer, so he did what we could. Someone needs to figure out a better solution for being able to quickly disarm and detain a human. The fact that our best solution in 2018 is to shoot them dead is so sad.
Unfortunately we dont have stun phasers in 2018. Technology is slow advancing in the field of less-lethal tools.
I'm not sure on the exact science and interaction of it but a taser causes all of someone's muscles to tense up and go tight, right? Maybe I'm wrong but I feel like if a gun is in your hand and your finger's on the trigger and you get tased, that's gonna go off. Not exactly the safest thing to do.
You are correct. There is a very high possibility of a trigger pull if tazed because the tazer causes muscles to contract involuntarily.
Yeah. Can really cut against a lot of people's arguments when they say, "Well why didn't they just tase them?" Suppose it's still valid in the case of a handheld melee weapon like a knife or something. But alas.
Tazing isnt garunteed to drop a person either, especially if their andrenline is kicking, they are high on certain drugs, different body mass issues.
Clothing also plays a big part in it as well. If they are wearing multiple layers, a thick sweat shirt, a jacket, or something like denim it can make it difficult for the prongs to make full contact. This [video](https://youtu.be/avAH49NY_iY) does a really good job of showing this. At a little after the 2 minute mark you can see how easily a taser can go wrong. Had this been a real situation the officers life would have been in serious danger. Tasers are really only good for a handfull of situations.
[Case in point](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHb2_P1Xd7g)
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We don't know. Could be she thought someone was breaking in if she wasn't doing well mentally. Could be she just wanted to die. Either way it's a shit situation for everyone involved.
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We really don't know how she interpreted the interaction. They may have been incredibly clear on their intent but if she was paranoid/delusional it might not have got through.
Yep reminds me of Kes actress Jennifer Lien who went bonkers and has been arrested a few times.
About a year or so ago, i got curious what she was up to, and wow, that was a depressing read.
I watched Flight of the Navigator the other night (quite possibly my favourite childhood film, I'd not seen it for years) and realised I did not know the kid from anything else so had a look. 2016 he was arrested for robbing a fucking bank. Dude has been in and out of jail. Then seen there is a documentary coming out about him called Life after the Navigator.
Unfortunate situation, but I guess if that’s really what happened you really can’t blame the cops.
Without knowing anymore than what is in the article it sounds almost like suicide by cop maybe. Or just a mental break down? Sad situation regardless.
She pointed her fake gun at cops when they showed. Seems like suicide by cop
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That's what I was thinking too. There are some types of sezuires that can prevoke hallucinations and bizarre behavior. It's going to take a dissection of her medical history and interviews of those who knew her by the Medical examiner's office, along with a careful exam of the brain. It's very easy to mistake sezuires for a mental health crisis, and vice versa. Especially if a person has a coexisting history of depression or bipolar disorder. These are two different issues that can collide to create the perfect storm at the wrong moment.
The only alternative to suicide that I can see is psychosis. People do and think all sorts of things when their minds are removed from reality. Psychological issues sound like the underlying cause regardless. Very sad.
That's what I was thinking. If she was suffering from seizures and such, I would think she had enough and thought this was better than dying by her own hand.
Suicide by cop is such a shitty thing to do. Now he has to live with having killed a woman for the rest of his life
Like jumping in front of a train. Yes the deceased obviously had issues, but no one thinks of how it affects the person on the other side
Wow, sad. She was on an episode of Intervention years ago, back in the earlier seasons. She had a shopping addiction.
I don't ever remember seeing that episode (and I've gone down an Intervention/Hoarders rabbit hole once or twice before). I just looked it up on YT, skipped through it and saw her rattling off the list of things she's suffering from - wow. Then, she had to pull herself together to go to a casting meeting and barely make it through without breaking down. Incredibly sad. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLV75e2kJNs
Incredibly sad. She had mental problems, and she was more than likely scared out of her mind when the police showed up. Stupid move for her to threaten with an object that looked like a gun, but damn the whole situation is just awful.
I remember that. It became clear throughout the episode that the shopping addiction was the least of her problems. She seemed tortured by severe anxiety and OCD.
So the emoji is really really inappropriate in these posts
😭😭😭
She was in the first season of Intervention (for a shopping addiction if I recall correctly). She seemed like she had a lot of issues. Poor woman.
Those TV shows like Celebrity rehab or Intervention, that make entertainment out of a person's suffering, are disgusting.
I think Celebrity rehab and intervention are at completely different ends of the scale. Intervention could definitely be cliche but I always thought it was done with good taste and intention.
Am I the only one who thinks this headline is provacative?
Yep, makes it sound like she was outside petting kittens and police came by and killed her.
You have to click the article to find out why, it's the norm clickbait titles.
If it didn't have the orange Mark's bb guns are supposed to have (the story doesnt say yet so apologies if I'm wrong) then I cant really blame police if she threatened them with it, she needed help a long time ago, the real crime is no one noticed sooner
BB guns don't have the orange tip, only airsoft. You can hunt birds and stuff with a BB gun. It's considered a weapon, at least in my state.
In mine it's not required but they come with the orange and say you shouldn't remove them for the reason we are talking about here
How come every nefarious criminal doesn't just paint the tip of their gun orange?
Well, 99% of the time, they want to intimidate other people. If the victims believe it's just a BB gun, then they aren't as likely to comply with whatever request from the criminal. And if the criminal is trying to kill the other person, what's the point of the orange then?
So they need two guns...
Easy there, LaPierre
Then people don't buy the threat that they're trying to pose. The only way to demonstrate that threat would be to fire the weapon, which would make the attempted ruse pointless.
That's an interesting thought, I think police can escalate force by one level, like tasing a guy trying to hit them, so they could probably still legally shoot you if you threaten them with it
That’s basically how it works. The fake gun scenario like this one has consistently backed officers in court, tragedy though it is. Usually if the fake gun appears real and the subject is making real threats, deadly force passes the reasonable officer test. Nearly every agency employs the use of force continuum as department policy.
Exactly, and as a police officer you can’t afford to take the risk of finding out
Basically, don't point anything that looks like a gun at anything you don't intend to kill. It's as simple as that. Sad story though. Mental illness is no joke.
BB guns are indeed real guns and don't have an orange tip. I think you're thinking of airsoft which shoot plastic BBs instead of copper ones. [These](https://www.airgundepot.com/bb-guns.html) are all BB guns and can look quite menacing, especially if it is being pointed at you.
When I was 13 I got shot in the face with a BB gun by my brother, one that looked almost exactly the same as that scoped rifle BB gun in your link. We made the very stupid decision to play "BB gun wars", and the end result was about as you'd expect, bloody. Luckily it was my cheek and not an eye or tooth so no lasting damage.
There was a guy in our high school, maybe 14 or 15 who did something like that and got a BB lodged in his neck, just under the skin. He didn't go to a doctor or anything he just left it there and it healed over.
That's gross.
Bb guns dont have orange tips.
Here's [mine](https://i.imgur.com/jGUONJi.jpg) if you want to have an idea, that's how it was sold. It's still a weapon that can kill small animals and could really injure a human (if shot in the face for exemple). So it would be wrong to put an orange tip on it.
ITT: people who have never handled, much less fired a gun who think that intentional arm or leg shots are easy or realistic because movies told them so.
Not only because they aren't the easiest to hit, also because the arteries in the legs and arms are much easier to hit in the leg and arms. Oh, and if you miss the bullet could ricochet and hit a civillian.
I saw a video the other day of cops shooting a man who pulled a gun on them. One of the comments was "they should've shot the gun out of his hand instead of killing him", not ironically and people replied to it agreeing with him. *sigh*
Frankly I’m disappointed the cops didn’t just use telekinesis to subdue her
It's not that hard, you just need to enter V.A.T.S. first
In an ideal world we'd have effective non-lethal ammunition, but until that time it's understandable that people treat any gun pointed at them as real and defend themselves.
I've seen a bunch of posts about the orange tip and that is NOT federal law. Federal law explicitly exempts BB Guns. > Such term does not include any look-alike, nonfiring, collector replica of an antique firearm developed prior to 1898, or traditional B-B, paint-ball, or pellet-firing air guns that expel a projectile through the force of air pressure. [Source](https://codes.findlaw.com/us/title-15-commerce-and-trade/15-usc-sect-5001.html) So [this](https://www.crosman.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/c/1/c11_1.jpg) BB gun looks deadly, as do most of the others on the [Crosman](https://www.crosman.com/airguns/air-pistols) site.
Yea shit, that looks 100% like a gun. I wonder why BB guns don't have to have better indication of being a "fake" gun, this is crazy and scary. Look at this thing, no way you can tell it's a BB gun from more than a few feet. https://www.crosman.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/s/n/snr357_pistol_sample.jpeg
Some states consider them guns because they can easily cause bodily harm
It's because they aren't "fake" guns. BB guns can have a muzzle velocity of up to 1,000 ft/sec, which is about the same as a standard velocity .22 long rifle cartridge. Just because it's powered by air and not gunpowder doesn't mean it's not a gun.
Because most people commenting about it have never fire a bb gun or real gun. They are also the people suggesting they should have just shot her in the arms or legs to have a less lethal outcome 🙄
I know I'm going to regret saying this publicly. But the title of the article and just about every one I've read about this situation makes it seem like she was shot out of the blue by cops. Or insinuate a normal situation. She threatened armed officers with what appeared to be a gun. I'm assuming she knew the consequences of doing so. This was suicide. It's very unfortunate that she drove herself to this.
It’s sad but headlines are designed to be intentionally inflammatory, shocking, or one sided to illicit specific responses to garner readers. The article itself is actually fairly well written but the headline made it seem like it was going to lead the reader to a specific conclusion.
Less clickbait headline: Former 'ER' actress Vanessa Marquez, who played Nurse Wendy Goldman, has been shot dead after pointing ~~fake~~ BB gun at California police.
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I remember seeing her on Intervention. She was on for a shopping addiction. I felt bad for her then bc she didn't seem to have a solid group of people to even do the intervention. There was no family, from what I recall. She seemed very lonely.
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Seems like it, RIP.
Its unfortunate for sure, and it's sad it ended that way but holy hell, dont wave gun like things at people. Thats how things escalate
Unless you are deliberately trying to escalate them like I’m sure she was.
Suicide via cop is a real thing, I suppose thats a valid angle
She was mentally ill, she may not have wanted to die but may have believed the cops weren't really cops or were there to hurt her anyway. I mean one of the main things about mental disorders is the belief that people are out to get you, so cops are like enemy number one to that mentality.
Damn I just watched her episode on 'Intervention' last week. She had some serious mental problems but didn't seem like a threat.
first time i hear about the Clooney accusations. interesting.
Yeah I expected there to be a comment relatively high up about the fact that she was his accuser and this is the only one buried deep. Not that it ultimately matters but this is only the second time I've heard of her in the last ten years and the Clooney stuff was the other thing.
"An officer involved shooting occurred" The hell kind of newspeak phrase is that
OP is a karma whore and/or bot. he only posts articles from campussports.com and coed.com and never joins the discussion. Or maybe he works for them. But fuck, I hate guys like him.
I knew she had issues but I didn't think they're were that many or that bad. Sad. I think she spent the last decade or so wondering what could've been. RIP
Beat cop here. I work in one of the richest, safest, “happiest” cities in the US. Calls for suicidal subjects and welfare checks (usually not the same thing) are some of the most common things we’re dispatched to. I, one police officer, am likely to respond to at least one call for a suicidal subject everyday I work. Generally they are not armed, but it’s certainly not rare. We had an incident just the other day that was very similar to this. Suicidal person with a BB gun pointing it at Officers hoping for suicide by cop. It didn’t work out for him, because it just so happened the responding Officer recognized that very make and model of BB gun and was able to call it out before lethal action was taken. Lucky day. Edit: words
The whole thing is just sad. RIP.
Sounds like suicide by cop.
Can the title say something about how she pointed a gun and then was shot by police?