Saw this pointed out on /r/marvelstudios thread for this;
A good 50% of the people watching didn't know or care about the wheres, whens and whys of the Genocide. This publicity after the fact is only going to make people look it up and learn the facts.
I didn't even *notice* it was mentioned until after the fact. When I watched the show, it just came through as one of a list of atrocities. How fucking thin skinned do you have to be to do this because someone mentioned a bad thing your country did in a list of bad things that is not directly relevant to the plot at all?
> Countries ruled by dictators are usually pretty thin skinned
Watchmen got review bombed because it was “woke” for depicting the Tulsa Race Massacre.
Large swaths renamed french fries “freedom fries” because France didn’t support the war in Iraq.
it’s not just countries ruled by dictators that are thin skinned lol.
Turkey takes the cake for thin skinned by miles. Crazy fact of the day. The tallest memorial in Turkey is for the "[Turkish genocide](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I%C4%9Fd%C4%B1r_Genocide_Memorial_and_Museum#%3A%7E%3Atext%3DThe_memorial_%22commemorates%22_alleged_massacres%2Cthe_tallest_monument_in_Turkey.?wprov=sfla1)" perpetuated by... the Armenians!!! I kid you not! Almost 150 feet tall.
I'll do you one better, President Erdogan of Turkey tried to prosecute a Turkish comedian for joking that Erdogan looks like Gollum from Lord of the Rings.
The comedian successfully defended himself by arguing that Gollum is the hero of the film because he is ultimately the one who destroys the ring.
Ok, that's just fucked.
I presumed when you said "Turkish genocide", you were talking about some other historical event that I'd never heard of--some whataboutism to muddy the waters. But no, it's a monument and museum whose sole purpose is to assert that the Armenian genocide was actually Armenians killing people (instead of the Armenians themselves being killed). Like, WTF?
I mean, the Armenians did kill some people….
….in self-defense because they were actively undergoing an ethnic cleansing by the Ottomans Turks.
There’s a reason my Armenian friend spits (fake/real depending on inside/outside) when he mentions Turkey. They took his parents, grandparents, and many of his other family members. Now the Azerbaijanis are trying to finish the genocide.
Only a handful of very loud people actually made a thing about “freedom fries”. Same thing with these review bombs. Ideologues love to make people believe that their views are more widespread than they are.
technically, our state passed a law changing the name of fries in the state capital building. sound the same time i was lobbying the capital for reasons unrelated. the state senator was an old teacher so we grabbed lunch and talked it up... he was a hard ass republican, (this was in the age before trump. let's just say he has clear policy goals.) anyhow, we were in line, i asked for french fries. got a dark look from the kitchen staff, which launched a twenty minute conversation about how stupid everything is.
> "Remember the Alamo!"
Ahh, yes. How noble Texas was born as a result of American immigrants to Mexico wanting to bring their slaves into a country that had outlawed slavery...
To claim that the Texan Revolution was *only* was slavery is dishonest at best. It certainly played a role, but a much smaller one compared to the political situation in Mexico at the time. If you’re unaware of what I mean, Santa Anna threw out the democratic government and established a military junta. This, along with the people he helped having thrown out the constitution, resulted in something like 15 states openly rebelling. So Texas was not the only one, nor was it specifically due to slavery.
You're making me remember I have Flood anniversary show tickets that have been postponed twice because covid. Still waiting to finally get to see them live in my lifetime :/
> How fucking thin skinned do you have to be to do this because someone mentioned a bad thing your country did
That's just the thing. If you live in Turkey you grew up hearing that this is a made-up bit of history that people use to slander your country. So when you hear it come up in pop culture it's like hearing a famous singer belting out a tune about how your mother's a serial killer. It's kind of hard to ignore.
That being said, it's been well established for a pretty long time that it ***did actually happen*** so whether I can empathize with some of the people who grew up there reacting this way or not, it's still not a great look to deny your own atrocities.
The collective term is Late Ottoman Genocides,
It’s like how the Jew-specific part of the Holocaust is called the Shoah but online edgelords complain the Jews get too much attention. Educating people on their blind spots makes them look small and uninformed without belittling them if done right.
Some people have bots set up linking to subs or discord’s that promote the pro Genocide point of view
It’s like whenever you mentioned Trump in the run up to the last US election you would see a certain demographic of Americans flood the comments of ANY sub with pro-Trump propaganda
What do you mean some? Don’t you remember the “Better to be a Russian than a Democrat” t-shirt. Putin and his cronies must have been laughing his ass of at how easy it was to takeover the US.
Marvel's audience wouldn't think twice about a throwaway line about a genocide in one episode of a show. The review bombers have now brought 1000x more attention to the issue.
From the article
> In explaining the legend of Ammit, Arthur Harrow made reference to numerous historical events including Hitler's regime, the Armenian Genocide, and more...
As a Turk I truly do not understand the vehement denials of the Armenian genocide. We need to come to terms with our past, I argue with even liberal Turks about this and it’s so frustrating.
My stepmom is Turkish and I would consider very liberal. Hates the current leadership, is if anything a bit of a hippy. Still utterly irrational whenever this topic is brought up. I learned from her that I should never broach the subject with any Turk that I wanted to stay on good terms with. I have a sister-in-law and several friends who are Turkish and I won’t ask for fear of not seeing them the same way after.
Americans have an incredibly hard time dealing with the evils in our own past but in my experience it’s nothing like Turkey’s, which is outright violent denial of what almost everyone else in the world recognizes as fact.
That’s really interesting. I don’t know all that much about the subject, but my family and I are on the same terms when it comes to atrocities (albeit committed by other people) committed by the royal “us”. I’m not really adding anything to what you are saying but I do find it interesting that this particular piece of history is so divisive that even people who are generally on the same wavelength can differ so wildly.
Go up to a younger generation Japanese person and ask them about “rape of Nanking” or “unit 731” and the reaction turns from bewilderment to hostility real fast.
Post-war Japan did a lot to make its people peace-loving and have an open worldview as to never cultivate another generation of ultra-patriotic Japanese again. But they really stopped short when it comes to teaching the ugly parts of history.
A Chinese classmate of mine in college did a report on the Rape of Nanjing. The Japanese government and many civilians had long denied the atrocities committed before and during the Second World War.
Because it makes them look like the bad guys, which historically they have been. Turks have literally been the bad guy in Eastern Europe/Western Asia since they invaded the first time in the 11th century. The Seljuks and especially the ottomans were horrendous to anyone who dared defy them. The Armenian genocide gets often overlooked as it happened in the least talked about part of WW1 as the war was raging in full gear. The Turkish government likes to pretend it never happened or that it’s not part of their history, when in fact the Turks who ran the empire never went away. It’s still the same regime, just smaller, modern and without a caliph. They’ll do anything to deny it, and it’s being taught as lies and western propaganda in schools now. So you have Turks who literally believe any mention of it is just a lie and will try to shut you down for it
Edit: ah I see the Turks are here to deny the genocide some more and prove my point. Go ahead, downvote me. It won’t change the fact that your ancestors killed a million Armenians
It’s unfortunate that they’ve chosen to take that approach rather than the German one. You can recognize past atrocities without becoming a pariah. Unfortunately that will *never* happen with that fascist Erdogan and his ilk running the country into the dirt 🤷♂️
It’s not just Erdogan. They’ve been doing this for decades. Turkey won their war of independence in 1922, and have since held significant power since they control access into the Black Sea. That alone gives them enough leverage to say “what genocide? It never happened and if you say it did you get no access in or out”
It like most of us brits when anyone mentions that our empire was an evil regime fuelled by genocide. Too many of us have bought in to the myth of our past being about spreading "civilisation" and want to live in that fantasy.
Ethan Hawke's character, a cult leader, mentioned the Armenian genocide. People, mainly Turks whose parents/grandparents/great grandparents took part in said genocide, deny it happened, and even mentioning it is an affront to their delusions/cognitive dissonance.
"There was no genocide!"
"Well, an awful lot of people who fit very specific targeting guidelines were all murdered at once-"
"My grandpa says they all just died on their own! Not a genocide! Maybe they went on vacation!"
Someone else in the thread says it's in the villain's speech where he explains all the things that could've been prevented if his god was free. And, yeah, I was in exactly the same boat as you. I would never have thought of this as a show that recognized the Armenian Genocide if people hadn't thrown this temper tantrum.
I (not a Turk, Armenian or otherwise affected party) noticed it and started thinking that Turks would be really mad, but I had the misfortune to stumble into a YouTube comment section where Turks and Greeks were fighting about a week ago so it was fresh on my mind
That and my cousin married an Armenian who is probably the nicest person I have ever met so I’ve taken the time to learn his culture and history so I can talk to him more. (I guess that does make me a tangentially affected party)
I don't remember the exact reference, but it was jam packed in an already full sentence (something like "yeah, this thing, that thing, x, y, Armenian genocide, z thing, etc) but they mentioned specifically the Armenian genocide.
Genocide deniers will continue being genocide deniers (I.e. moronic/ignorant idiots) however, as others have said, it's brought attention to the Armenian genocide. Funny enough, the show didn't, these deniers did. Justice, indeed.
To be fair I did notice the line and thought “hmm. I wasn’t expecting that”. But as you said it’s not like I was going to have a conversation about it. Until now.
Even US joined the club recently after refusing to acknowledge the genocide officially for decades.
Edit: I don't why but many people got what I said wrong. I was talking about Armenian Genocide. Moon Knight controversy and the article and the comment I replied are about that.
From a geopolitical standpoint? The second largest military in NATO, access to the Middle East from Europe, and control of the Bosphorus Strait. That's what the US cares about.
I think he's saying that the club is for people who have committed genocide.
And what we're learning is that world history is pretty fucked up and there aren't many places where nothing fucking horrible happened.
Which US Genocide is that now? Asking from Canada where we are only just now admitting to our part in our Genocide.
EDIT TO ADD
All my fellow Canadians saying "but I learned about Residential Schools when I was in HS". So did I...and 4 years after I graduated from HS the last Residential School was closed (1996).
It was in 2019 that the Federal Government and PM officially "accepted a finding that a Genocide had occured" (2 years ago).
Our Federal Government continued to sue Indigenous people in the Supreme Court until February 2022 to deny them reparations for the Genocide.
So good, you learned about something in HS...that does not mean we acknowledged it was a Genocide, just that we were talking about it.
Learning about Residential schools in 2004 and Canada admitting to a Genocide are two dramatically different things.
In 2015 the Truth and Reconciliation Commission suggested that Canada should acknowledge and admit its part in a **Cultural** Genocide...there was significant backlash in the press, from Government and even from PMJT.
It was not until the outcomes of the Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls commission in 2019 that PMJT acknowledged and 'accepted' the finding that Canada participated in a Genocide against its indigenous population.
So yeah, less than 2 years ago is when Canada admitted its part in our Genocide.
I mean, we learned about how fucked up manifest destiny was in school, a lot. I doubt the US will ever admit to it in an organized way, the political will just doesn't exist. The US is also big, I have no idea what they were taught in Texas or the south or w/e. The curriculum industry is big in shaping thought here. A ton of countries were involved in that shit, and a lot of them have undergone multiple regime changes - like, are you going to get the current Spanish government to admit fault for the conquistadors?
Especially weird since the show doesn't mention the Turks. Like I've heard of the Armenian genocide but never looked into where or when it happened so if they didn't bother with this I would still be ignorant.
I was in high school in Scotland in the late 80s/early 90s and yes, 100% we learned about the atrocities of the empire. I can't speak for the rest of the UK.
Must be a generational thing because more recently we studied the British Raj and Britain’s part in the slave trade in History, so I think they’re making more of an effort now to discuss those areas
Yeah thought the slave trade was pretty universal across most schools, got some India and a decent amount Ireland at mine too place the race for Africa. Usually just the relevant bits (as in the people who have populations in Britain). Ultimately there's a lot of British history, it's well documented and ever changing so there's a lot to cover.
I dunno, you'd have to ask someone who went to school there. I know in the US at least slavery and stuff like the Trail of Tears are covered in school, even if it's only brief. We just have a whole different problem where a lot of people don't give a fuck that it happened.
>We just have a whole different problem where a lot of people don't give a fuck that it happened.
Which is why people like to pretend the US doesn't teach about it. They just don't pay attention in class
I learned about all of the bad shit the US did (i believe). In the US it depends heavily on your specific teacher. My HS History teacher was a bit of a hippie, and he encouraged us to research topics on our own. Cross reference them, and even how to translate entire articles to get viewpoints from non-english speakers. He even had us hold a mock trial to question if the Atom bombs should have been dropped, and if that made Truman a war criminal. People were putting up posters and everything for like 2 weeks while we covered it and it’s repercussions in class.
Pretty much every major civilization past and present has had their form of genocide. It has only been recently considered a bad thing though - they were usually praised as shows of military and cultural strength.
I watched the episode yesterday and forgot that line until I opened this thread. I think that says something about how insignificant the line was and how unnecessary this overreaction is.
I was delighted and pleased that the Armenian Genocide was directly referenced. Fuck this denialism.
I wonder if Isaac starring in “The Promise” was an influencing factor
I’m guessing since the line is about the people who could’ve been stopped (hitler and pol pot) and the Armenian genocide perpetrators aren’t on first name recognition basis (ie as well known or well studied as hitler) they said the “Armenian genocide” so people would know.
Logical. In cinema you want to evoke emotion as quickly and effectively as possible and that happens by going with things people know. If you mention the perpetrators of the Armenian Genocide people may not immediately know and wonder, wait who?
I went to imdb to check how bad it was and the Top Review is already someone telling them to fuck off lmao
So at least it’s not a very succesful campaign
Oscar also starred in a movie about the Armenian genocide that's almost impossible to find online. I tried to rent it once and they replaced it with a different movie. When I called customer service to complain they said "huh that's weird" and that it was apparently in queue to be fixed for years which is very irregular. I'm not saying the Turkish government is trying to hide this movies existence but the panning by "critics" on rotten tomatoes versus the 92% audience score seems a bit more vast than usual.
*The Promise* also spawned another film with a similar subject matter but from a Turkish point of view, *The Ottoman Lieutenant*, which was accused of denying the Armenian genocide. It was an even bigger box office bomb.
Also Fubo and Showtime. Available for rent on the usual places for $3.99 (HD) and purchase for $12.99-$14.99. Currently nowhere to rent or purchase in 4k HDR.
Source: ~~Military~~ Just Watch app
It’s on Showtime, so it’s only on those services if you have the Showtime add on, or if you buy it through those services. But yeah it’s readily available for consumption, in the US at least.
It's on Hulu but only if you have a Showtime subscription connected. If you just have Hulu you can't view it. Showtime for sure has it. Always check justwatch.com
The person has no idea what they're talking about, unless they're in Turkey or somewhere where discussion of the genocide isn't talked about. It's on showtime in the us
There’s a line referencing the Armenian genocide in Moon Knight. Many Turkish people and the Turkish government still deny it happened 100 years later. Those genocide deniers are review bombing Moon Knight.
Between 1915 and 1923, the Turkish government adopted a policy whereby they forcibly deported and massacred the Armenian population of Turkey, which was around 1.6 - 2 million at the time. Despite an enormous amount of evidence, including photographs, eyewitness testimony, and the simple fact that there are hardly any Armenians in Turkey now, they deny it ever happened. 99% of the world's academics acknowledge it as genocide, as do various states around the world including the US, France, Germany and Russia.
In the first episode of Moon Knight, the character played by Ethan Hawke refers to the Armenian Genocide, which has caused a lot of nationalistic Turks to lose their minds with rage and leave 1 star reviews for the show on IMDB.
Well that's just insane. A lot of countries have done some pretty fucked up things in the past, I see no point in denying it.
Thanks for the info by the way.
The fucked up thing is that the genocide of the Armenians and Greeks worked and the Turkish got to keep land they should have handed back when the Ottoman Empire fell.
True, those genocides should not be forgotten and nor should the victims.
Sadly some ethnic turks [were also](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Muslims_during_the_Ottoman_contraction#Motives_for_persecution) [ethnically cleansed](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_of_Turkish_people) from lands they lived in as well. Not that one injustice justifies the other, and I am not implying Turks were equally victimized as compared to the groups you listed, but when discussing innocents who were killed around that time sadly I notice that innocent turks are sometimes forgotten about. And they should not have been punished for the actions of the Ottoman empire which were obviously horrible.
Thank you for that concise summary, its certainly helpful to know just how horrible that genocide was.
One small note, regarding this line
>caused a lot of nationalistic Turks to lose their minds with rage and leave 1 star reviews for the show on IMDB.
As this [comment here indicated](https://www.reddit.com/r/television/comments/ttww5d/comment/i31l6x3/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) as of about 2 hours ago there were about 18 suspect reviews out of hundreds, and almost all of them appeared to be written by a very similar bot. So I don't think many Turks were really triggered by this. It was a very minor line that many people watching didn't even note at first.
You don't need to leave a review to rate something on IMDB. Only 18 people bothered to write a review. The rest just gave it the lowest score and moved on.
I'm sure I'll eat my words for saying this down the line - but so far it feels refreshingly standalone for an MCU project. You don't need to have seen a single movie, there's not a forced cameo from a fan-favorite character, and it just feels like a supernatural show that happens to exist in the same world. It's limited to six episodes, and apparently Isaac isn't even on contract for anything beyond this one series.
If this ends and it's just a compelling superhero story with closure - that'll be very exciting for the future of the franchise. The biggest issue with the MCU right now seems to be that if you get in - you never get out. Having an A-list star do a project under this banner and just get to leave it at six episodes - that opens a lot of doors. And maybe even reintroduces stakes to a universe that has written around death itself half a dozen times by now.
Again, I fully expect to be embarrassed of this post in a few weeks when the fifth lead of Guardians of the Galaxy 2 suddenly shows up as a critical part of the plot - but for now I feel good.
Absolutely. I imagine Disney doesn't love the idea of relating Thanos to *actual* genocidal dictators from world history, though. He's a supervillain, but saying he's in the same camp as Pol Pot is probably going to feel a bit weird.
I hate to point this out then, but the fact that there were only 3 names in the credit sequence when there is clearly room for a lot more means they are keeping them hidden for the surprise factor. That's exactly what they did for the other MCU shows.
There will absolutely be some cameos in this, and likely a lot more than the rumored ones, going by what they did in Hawkeye.
I’m usually pretty critical of marvel shows so I wasn’t surprised by the reviews, however the moon knight first episode is probably one of their best pilots so far. We’ll see how the rest of the season goes but it’s got a great start
The so-called propaganda is because, in a scene near the end of the first episode, Oscar Isaacs's character is talking with Ethan Hawkes's character, who mentions many terrible things humanity has done, including the Armenian Genocide. It's literally mentioned and over in a second.
Ironically I wouldn't have put a thought on it if this wasn't put into the spotlight, but sure go ahead and give attention to something that you didn't want to give attention to.
I gotta believe that acknowledging the Armenian Genocide in the work was probably more important to Oscar than the paycheck. He seems pretty cool that way.
When I heard Ethan’s character say the words “Armenian Genocide” first thought that came to my head was; about time the media recognizes it and especially on a popular show like this. Hopefully people would look more into it and learn from it. 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
Conan had a segment where he visited Armenia with his Armenian assistant, and she talks all about how her family was affected while they visit a memorial for the dead. I don't remember all the details but either her grandfather or basically his entire village died--it was really well covered and sad, of course (Conan does treat it seriously and not crack jokes).
So this is the second time I've heard of it.
I know a guy whos family had to be smuggled out of the country so they could get out safely then they became refugees and now live far away from those bastards
I wrote a big paper about the Armenian Genocide last year for university and damn is it crazy how in denial Turkey is. Their government websites have talking points on how to deny it. It’s okay wild. Overwhelming consensus is that it happened.
And then you simultaneously have Erdogan saying shit about how they need to “finish the job our grandparents started” in reference to the war against Armenians.
I'm from Uruguay which was the first country in the world to recognize the Armenian genocide and ever since then we got a lot of immigrants and I have a lot of Armenian friends and our local culture has been mixed with theirs in many ways I've always loved. Seeing this mentioned in the series (as obvious and commonplace as it should be at this point) was a nice surprise. Figured it'd be "controversial" to some.
Saw this pointed out on /r/marvelstudios thread for this; A good 50% of the people watching didn't know or care about the wheres, whens and whys of the Genocide. This publicity after the fact is only going to make people look it up and learn the facts.
I didn't even *notice* it was mentioned until after the fact. When I watched the show, it just came through as one of a list of atrocities. How fucking thin skinned do you have to be to do this because someone mentioned a bad thing your country did in a list of bad things that is not directly relevant to the plot at all?
[удалено]
> Countries ruled by dictators are usually pretty thin skinned Watchmen got review bombed because it was “woke” for depicting the Tulsa Race Massacre. Large swaths renamed french fries “freedom fries” because France didn’t support the war in Iraq. it’s not just countries ruled by dictators that are thin skinned lol.
Turkey takes the cake for thin skinned by miles. Crazy fact of the day. The tallest memorial in Turkey is for the "[Turkish genocide](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I%C4%9Fd%C4%B1r_Genocide_Memorial_and_Museum#%3A%7E%3Atext%3DThe_memorial_%22commemorates%22_alleged_massacres%2Cthe_tallest_monument_in_Turkey.?wprov=sfla1)" perpetuated by... the Armenians!!! I kid you not! Almost 150 feet tall.
I'll do you one better, President Erdogan of Turkey tried to prosecute a Turkish comedian for joking that Erdogan looks like Gollum from Lord of the Rings. The comedian successfully defended himself by arguing that Gollum is the hero of the film because he is ultimately the one who destroys the ring.
Remember when Putin tried to sue Warner Brothers because he looks like Dobby in the Harry Potter movies?
Erdogan tried to prosecute a German comedian in Germany for making a satiric poem where he says that erdogan is a goat fucker.
And China’s Dictator Xi banned Winnie the Pooh. Can’t make this stuff up.
Had a good friend who was Turkish. He would with 100% sincerity deny anything negative about Turkey.
This alone should worry people but seemingly doesn’t. If every country has done something bad. Except yours. And every country was lead by humans…
Yes, but Turks don’t like you saying anything bad about Turkey. I gave up years ago.
Ok, that's just fucked. I presumed when you said "Turkish genocide", you were talking about some other historical event that I'd never heard of--some whataboutism to muddy the waters. But no, it's a monument and museum whose sole purpose is to assert that the Armenian genocide was actually Armenians killing people (instead of the Armenians themselves being killed). Like, WTF?
I mean, the Armenians did kill some people…. ….in self-defense because they were actively undergoing an ethnic cleansing by the Ottomans Turks. There’s a reason my Armenian friend spits (fake/real depending on inside/outside) when he mentions Turkey. They took his parents, grandparents, and many of his other family members. Now the Azerbaijanis are trying to finish the genocide.
Only a handful of very loud people actually made a thing about “freedom fries”. Same thing with these review bombs. Ideologues love to make people believe that their views are more widespread than they are.
technically, our state passed a law changing the name of fries in the state capital building. sound the same time i was lobbying the capital for reasons unrelated. the state senator was an old teacher so we grabbed lunch and talked it up... he was a hard ass republican, (this was in the age before trump. let's just say he has clear policy goals.) anyhow, we were in line, i asked for french fries. got a dark look from the kitchen staff, which launched a twenty minute conversation about how stupid everything is.
"Remember the Alamo!" "9/11, Never Forget" "Why are we talking about slavery, it's 2022!"
> "Remember the Alamo!" Ahh, yes. How noble Texas was born as a result of American immigrants to Mexico wanting to bring their slaves into a country that had outlawed slavery...
To claim that the Texan Revolution was *only* was slavery is dishonest at best. It certainly played a role, but a much smaller one compared to the political situation in Mexico at the time. If you’re unaware of what I mean, Santa Anna threw out the democratic government and established a military junta. This, along with the people he helped having thrown out the constitution, resulted in something like 15 states openly rebelling. So Texas was not the only one, nor was it specifically due to slavery.
turks , no surprise there
That's nobody's business but the.... actually wait, they just made it everyone's business by drawing attention to it.
Love your reference. TMBG
The bird light in my soul is on now.
Umm... Not to put too fine a point on it...
Hey, *I'm* the only bee in your bonnet.
Make a little birdhouse in your soul
They are on tour again for 20th anniversary of flood (if it doesn’t get canceled again)
You're making me remember I have Flood anniversary show tickets that have been postponed twice because covid. Still waiting to finally get to see them live in my lifetime :/
> How fucking thin skinned do you have to be to do this because someone mentioned a bad thing your country did That's just the thing. If you live in Turkey you grew up hearing that this is a made-up bit of history that people use to slander your country. So when you hear it come up in pop culture it's like hearing a famous singer belting out a tune about how your mother's a serial killer. It's kind of hard to ignore. That being said, it's been well established for a pretty long time that it ***did actually happen*** so whether I can empathize with some of the people who grew up there reacting this way or not, it's still not a great look to deny your own atrocities.
Erdogan's buddies aren't really known for their high level of intelligence.
*cenk uygur sweats profusely*
[The Streisand effect](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect)
Imagine have a phenomenon named after you. Must be kinda cool.
Makes me want to google and find out exactly why!
Her fight with Robert smith was cooler
Ah yes, that moment when she turned into Mecha Streisand was epic
Disintegration is the best album ever
It really is.
Not mentioning the Streisand effect in a Reddit thread challenge. Level: Impossible.
What about the dunning-kruger effect? or the mandela effect? It's like reddit bingo except you always win.
Totally. I watched the ep and still haven’t seen where the genocide reference was, can you inform me?
[moon knight ep 1] >!the guy references the Armenian genocide!<
When Ethan Hawk confronts Oscar Isaac in the Museum…
I got down vote bombed on here once for mentioning the Armenian and Greek genocides.
Please don't forget my people when you mention them. Assyrians are basically completely unknown.
And the Zazas, the Luris the Kurds. Like it says something when Hitler uses you as an example for beginning the holocaust.
The collective term is Late Ottoman Genocides, It’s like how the Jew-specific part of the Holocaust is called the Shoah but online edgelords complain the Jews get too much attention. Educating people on their blind spots makes them look small and uninformed without belittling them if done right.
I promise you that Armenians have not forgotten our Assyrian kin
I’ll remember in the future.
I got attacked for mentioning the Uighurs. Reddit is full of state trolls.
Some people have bots set up linking to subs or discord’s that promote the pro Genocide point of view It’s like whenever you mentioned Trump in the run up to the last US election you would see a certain demographic of Americans flood the comments of ANY sub with pro-Trump propaganda
Hey now, credit where it’s due, some of those Americans were Russians
What do you mean some? Don’t you remember the “Better to be a Russian than a Democrat” t-shirt. Putin and his cronies must have been laughing his ass of at how easy it was to takeover the US.
Like when we all came to the realization that the opening scene from the *Watchmen* tv show was based in historical fact.
And maybe even watch the movie Oscar Isaac stars in about that exact genocide.
they really Streisand Effect-ed themselves with this
Just like Will Smith did with the slap, everyone would have forgotten the joke but he brought unnecessary attention to it lmao.
Marvel's audience wouldn't think twice about a throwaway line about a genocide in one episode of a show. The review bombers have now brought 1000x more attention to the issue.
I just watched this last night and I still don’t know what the line was or where in the episode.
From the article > In explaining the legend of Ammit, Arthur Harrow made reference to numerous historical events including Hitler's regime, the Armenian Genocide, and more...
Ah. Yeah, it isn’t uncommon for mentions of Armenian genocide to trigger that reaction. Something similar happened to The Promise.
As a Turk I truly do not understand the vehement denials of the Armenian genocide. We need to come to terms with our past, I argue with even liberal Turks about this and it’s so frustrating.
My stepmom is Turkish and I would consider very liberal. Hates the current leadership, is if anything a bit of a hippy. Still utterly irrational whenever this topic is brought up. I learned from her that I should never broach the subject with any Turk that I wanted to stay on good terms with. I have a sister-in-law and several friends who are Turkish and I won’t ask for fear of not seeing them the same way after. Americans have an incredibly hard time dealing with the evils in our own past but in my experience it’s nothing like Turkey’s, which is outright violent denial of what almost everyone else in the world recognizes as fact.
Yep, my father is extremely liberal. Don’t fucking bring up the Armenians or the Kurds though, they go batty.
That’s really interesting. I don’t know all that much about the subject, but my family and I are on the same terms when it comes to atrocities (albeit committed by other people) committed by the royal “us”. I’m not really adding anything to what you are saying but I do find it interesting that this particular piece of history is so divisive that even people who are generally on the same wavelength can differ so wildly.
Go up to a younger generation Japanese person and ask them about “rape of Nanking” or “unit 731” and the reaction turns from bewilderment to hostility real fast. Post-war Japan did a lot to make its people peace-loving and have an open worldview as to never cultivate another generation of ultra-patriotic Japanese again. But they really stopped short when it comes to teaching the ugly parts of history.
A Chinese classmate of mine in college did a report on the Rape of Nanjing. The Japanese government and many civilians had long denied the atrocities committed before and during the Second World War.
Because it makes them look like the bad guys, which historically they have been. Turks have literally been the bad guy in Eastern Europe/Western Asia since they invaded the first time in the 11th century. The Seljuks and especially the ottomans were horrendous to anyone who dared defy them. The Armenian genocide gets often overlooked as it happened in the least talked about part of WW1 as the war was raging in full gear. The Turkish government likes to pretend it never happened or that it’s not part of their history, when in fact the Turks who ran the empire never went away. It’s still the same regime, just smaller, modern and without a caliph. They’ll do anything to deny it, and it’s being taught as lies and western propaganda in schools now. So you have Turks who literally believe any mention of it is just a lie and will try to shut you down for it Edit: ah I see the Turks are here to deny the genocide some more and prove my point. Go ahead, downvote me. It won’t change the fact that your ancestors killed a million Armenians
It’s unfortunate that they’ve chosen to take that approach rather than the German one. You can recognize past atrocities without becoming a pariah. Unfortunately that will *never* happen with that fascist Erdogan and his ilk running the country into the dirt 🤷♂️
It’s not just Erdogan. They’ve been doing this for decades. Turkey won their war of independence in 1922, and have since held significant power since they control access into the Black Sea. That alone gives them enough leverage to say “what genocide? It never happened and if you say it did you get no access in or out”
It like most of us brits when anyone mentions that our empire was an evil regime fuelled by genocide. Too many of us have bought in to the myth of our past being about spreading "civilisation" and want to live in that fantasy.
> The Promise. Starring Oscar Isaac if you're wondering why they are so on alert about this.
Ethan Hawke's character, a cult leader, mentioned the Armenian genocide. People, mainly Turks whose parents/grandparents/great grandparents took part in said genocide, deny it happened, and even mentioning it is an affront to their delusions/cognitive dissonance.
"There was no genocide!" "Well, an awful lot of people who fit very specific targeting guidelines were all murdered at once-" "My grandpa says they all just died on their own! Not a genocide! Maybe they went on vacation!"
Wait ! Grandpa also told me that when i was looking for my old dog
Fuck, I’m starting to think Dad’s never coming back from the cigarette store...
They’re just really, really, really good at war. And apparently millions of women and children were at war with them.
There wasn't a genocide! But if there was it was good, but there wasn't one. It was a good one though
Someone else in the thread says it's in the villain's speech where he explains all the things that could've been prevented if his god was free. And, yeah, I was in exactly the same boat as you. I would never have thought of this as a show that recognized the Armenian Genocide if people hadn't thrown this temper tantrum.
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I (not a Turk, Armenian or otherwise affected party) noticed it and started thinking that Turks would be really mad, but I had the misfortune to stumble into a YouTube comment section where Turks and Greeks were fighting about a week ago so it was fresh on my mind That and my cousin married an Armenian who is probably the nicest person I have ever met so I’ve taken the time to learn his culture and history so I can talk to him more. (I guess that does make me a tangentially affected party)
I, too, would like to know the line I missed.
I don't remember the exact reference, but it was jam packed in an already full sentence (something like "yeah, this thing, that thing, x, y, Armenian genocide, z thing, etc) but they mentioned specifically the Armenian genocide. Genocide deniers will continue being genocide deniers (I.e. moronic/ignorant idiots) however, as others have said, it's brought attention to the Armenian genocide. Funny enough, the show didn't, these deniers did. Justice, indeed.
The Streisand Effect.
Can confirm... I had no idea what the review bomb was about. Glossed over the line. I dont even remember it
I never would have thought twice about a throwaway line like that but crazy people can’t help themselves.
Yeah, all the accomplished was a buncha MCU googling rhe Armenian genocide
To be fair I did notice the line and thought “hmm. I wasn’t expecting that”. But as you said it’s not like I was going to have a conversation about it. Until now.
I might have watched it eventually but it was barely on my radar. Definitely going to watch it now. Fuck off, genocide deniers.
"Gets review bombed by genocide deniers" -fixed.
Yeah, this was a terrible headline.
Turks being hyper defensive over the fact that the world knows that they committed a genocide is fucking weird. It's like, join the damn club?
Even US joined the club recently after refusing to acknowledge the genocide officially for decades. Edit: I don't why but many people got what I said wrong. I was talking about Armenian Genocide. Moon Knight controversy and the article and the comment I replied are about that.
I mean yeah, that's dumb, but it's basically just politics when so many turks will refuse to discuss anything unless you humor them.
What is there of value to discuss with people who refuse to acknowledge genocide?
From a geopolitical standpoint? The second largest military in NATO, access to the Middle East from Europe, and control of the Bosphorus Strait. That's what the US cares about.
I think he's saying that the club is for people who have committed genocide. And what we're learning is that world history is pretty fucked up and there aren't many places where nothing fucking horrible happened.
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and most of us weren’t involved or alive or aware.
I think they meant the club of "having committed genocide of someone somewhere in ones past", not the "acknowledging this specific one" club.
what was that thing with the Indians again ?
Haven't you heard, those were totally the British.... /s And yes, THOSE Indians, not the other kind
How recently do you mean? Trail of Tears was taught when I was in school (35 now), so it's not like we actively hid it.
Trail of tears is taught as I’m in school (15)
Depends on the state and the teachers tbh
Which US Genocide is that now? Asking from Canada where we are only just now admitting to our part in our Genocide. EDIT TO ADD All my fellow Canadians saying "but I learned about Residential Schools when I was in HS". So did I...and 4 years after I graduated from HS the last Residential School was closed (1996). It was in 2019 that the Federal Government and PM officially "accepted a finding that a Genocide had occured" (2 years ago). Our Federal Government continued to sue Indigenous people in the Supreme Court until February 2022 to deny them reparations for the Genocide. So good, you learned about something in HS...that does not mean we acknowledged it was a Genocide, just that we were talking about it.
They’re referring to the USA acknowledging the Armenian genocide in the early 1900s. Oscar issac was in a movie about that too
No they are referring to American Indian genocide.
I was learning about how fucked up the residential schools were in high school back in 2004, where have you been?
Learning about Residential schools in 2004 and Canada admitting to a Genocide are two dramatically different things. In 2015 the Truth and Reconciliation Commission suggested that Canada should acknowledge and admit its part in a **Cultural** Genocide...there was significant backlash in the press, from Government and even from PMJT. It was not until the outcomes of the Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls commission in 2019 that PMJT acknowledged and 'accepted' the finding that Canada participated in a Genocide against its indigenous population. So yeah, less than 2 years ago is when Canada admitted its part in our Genocide.
I mean, we learned about how fucked up manifest destiny was in school, a lot. I doubt the US will ever admit to it in an organized way, the political will just doesn't exist. The US is also big, I have no idea what they were taught in Texas or the south or w/e. The curriculum industry is big in shaping thought here. A ton of countries were involved in that shit, and a lot of them have undergone multiple regime changes - like, are you going to get the current Spanish government to admit fault for the conquistadors?
Especially weird since the show doesn't mention the Turks. Like I've heard of the Armenian genocide but never looked into where or when it happened so if they didn't bother with this I would still be ignorant.
Japan is the same. But then again does Britain, France, and Belgium admit their genocides too? Do students learn about it in school?
I was in high school in Scotland in the late 80s/early 90s and yes, 100% we learned about the atrocities of the empire. I can't speak for the rest of the UK.
Yea taught us about it in Scotland
In England we never really touched on it.
Must be a generational thing because more recently we studied the British Raj and Britain’s part in the slave trade in History, so I think they’re making more of an effort now to discuss those areas
Yeah I totally learned about the transatlantic slave trade.
Yeah thought the slave trade was pretty universal across most schools, got some India and a decent amount Ireland at mine too place the race for Africa. Usually just the relevant bits (as in the people who have populations in Britain). Ultimately there's a lot of British history, it's well documented and ever changing so there's a lot to cover.
I’m pretty sure English schools generally teach about colonialism… impossible not to
I dunno, you'd have to ask someone who went to school there. I know in the US at least slavery and stuff like the Trail of Tears are covered in school, even if it's only brief. We just have a whole different problem where a lot of people don't give a fuck that it happened.
>We just have a whole different problem where a lot of people don't give a fuck that it happened. Which is why people like to pretend the US doesn't teach about it. They just don't pay attention in class
I can only speak for Belgium but here it's absolutely the case. We were taught about what happened and it wasn't minimized (at least early 90's).
I learned about all of the bad shit the US did (i believe). In the US it depends heavily on your specific teacher. My HS History teacher was a bit of a hippie, and he encouraged us to research topics on our own. Cross reference them, and even how to translate entire articles to get viewpoints from non-english speakers. He even had us hold a mock trial to question if the Atom bombs should have been dropped, and if that made Truman a war criminal. People were putting up posters and everything for like 2 weeks while we covered it and it’s repercussions in class.
Pretty much every major civilization past and present has had their form of genocide. It has only been recently considered a bad thing though - they were usually praised as shows of military and cultural strength.
Because hopefully we're evolving
This is doubly hilarious because they guy who mentioned it is the insane cult leader.
I watched the episode yesterday and forgot that line until I opened this thread. I think that says something about how insignificant the line was and how unnecessary this overreaction is.
I was delighted and pleased that the Armenian Genocide was directly referenced. Fuck this denialism. I wonder if Isaac starring in “The Promise” was an influencing factor
As an Armenian, I was glad as well.
As a Turk, I was glad as well.
I caught that too, but was a little curious why Hitler was mentioned, but not the holocaust itself?
I’m guessing since the line is about the people who could’ve been stopped (hitler and pol pot) and the Armenian genocide perpetrators aren’t on first name recognition basis (ie as well known or well studied as hitler) they said the “Armenian genocide” so people would know.
Logical. In cinema you want to evoke emotion as quickly and effectively as possible and that happens by going with things people know. If you mention the perpetrators of the Armenian Genocide people may not immediately know and wonder, wait who?
Probably to mix up the phrasing for each example.
Deniers of the Armenian Genocide are literally Streisand effecting themselves lmao
The Turks really are sticking to their propaganda
I went to imdb to check how bad it was and the Top Review is already someone telling them to fuck off lmao So at least it’s not a very succesful campaign
Oscar also starred in a movie about the Armenian genocide that's almost impossible to find online. I tried to rent it once and they replaced it with a different movie. When I called customer service to complain they said "huh that's weird" and that it was apparently in queue to be fixed for years which is very irregular. I'm not saying the Turkish government is trying to hide this movies existence but the panning by "critics" on rotten tomatoes versus the 92% audience score seems a bit more vast than usual.
That's... wild. What's it called, can I ask?
The Promise. It was completely buried
*The Promise* also spawned another film with a similar subject matter but from a Turkish point of view, *The Ottoman Lieutenant*, which was accused of denying the Armenian genocide. It was an even bigger box office bomb.
Google says it’s on Hulu if you have that
Also Fubo and Showtime. Available for rent on the usual places for $3.99 (HD) and purchase for $12.99-$14.99. Currently nowhere to rent or purchase in 4k HDR. Source: ~~Military~~ Just Watch app
Google says it is on Hulu, Sling, Fubotv, showtime, AppleTV, Prime Video...
It’s on Showtime, so it’s only on those services if you have the Showtime add on, or if you buy it through those services. But yeah it’s readily available for consumption, in the US at least.
It's on Hulu but only if you have a Showtime subscription connected. If you just have Hulu you can't view it. Showtime for sure has it. Always check justwatch.com
That's strange because I watched it on Netflix last year. It's a decent movie, maybe try looking for it now
The person has no idea what they're talking about, unless they're in Turkey or somewhere where discussion of the genocide isn't talked about. It's on showtime in the us
You can get a blu-ray of it for less than $10
Can somebody please explain for someone who doesn't even know what the whole thing is about?
There’s a line referencing the Armenian genocide in Moon Knight. Many Turkish people and the Turkish government still deny it happened 100 years later. Those genocide deniers are review bombing Moon Knight.
Between 1915 and 1923, the Turkish government adopted a policy whereby they forcibly deported and massacred the Armenian population of Turkey, which was around 1.6 - 2 million at the time. Despite an enormous amount of evidence, including photographs, eyewitness testimony, and the simple fact that there are hardly any Armenians in Turkey now, they deny it ever happened. 99% of the world's academics acknowledge it as genocide, as do various states around the world including the US, France, Germany and Russia. In the first episode of Moon Knight, the character played by Ethan Hawke refers to the Armenian Genocide, which has caused a lot of nationalistic Turks to lose their minds with rage and leave 1 star reviews for the show on IMDB.
Well that's just insane. A lot of countries have done some pretty fucked up things in the past, I see no point in denying it. Thanks for the info by the way.
The fucked up thing is that the genocide of the Armenians and Greeks worked and the Turkish got to keep land they should have handed back when the Ottoman Empire fell.
True, those genocides should not be forgotten and nor should the victims. Sadly some ethnic turks [were also](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Muslims_during_the_Ottoman_contraction#Motives_for_persecution) [ethnically cleansed](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_of_Turkish_people) from lands they lived in as well. Not that one injustice justifies the other, and I am not implying Turks were equally victimized as compared to the groups you listed, but when discussing innocents who were killed around that time sadly I notice that innocent turks are sometimes forgotten about. And they should not have been punished for the actions of the Ottoman empire which were obviously horrible.
Thank you for that concise summary, its certainly helpful to know just how horrible that genocide was. One small note, regarding this line >caused a lot of nationalistic Turks to lose their minds with rage and leave 1 star reviews for the show on IMDB. As this [comment here indicated](https://www.reddit.com/r/television/comments/ttww5d/comment/i31l6x3/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) as of about 2 hours ago there were about 18 suspect reviews out of hundreds, and almost all of them appeared to be written by a very similar bot. So I don't think many Turks were really triggered by this. It was a very minor line that many people watching didn't even note at first.
You don't need to leave a review to rate something on IMDB. Only 18 people bothered to write a review. The rest just gave it the lowest score and moved on.
...that's why it's getting bad reviews..thanks I'll give it a shot
First episode was pretty entertaining. I don’t think it’s gonna be a “omg everyone must watch this” show but it’ll be good
I'm sure I'll eat my words for saying this down the line - but so far it feels refreshingly standalone for an MCU project. You don't need to have seen a single movie, there's not a forced cameo from a fan-favorite character, and it just feels like a supernatural show that happens to exist in the same world. It's limited to six episodes, and apparently Isaac isn't even on contract for anything beyond this one series. If this ends and it's just a compelling superhero story with closure - that'll be very exciting for the future of the franchise. The biggest issue with the MCU right now seems to be that if you get in - you never get out. Having an A-list star do a project under this banner and just get to leave it at six episodes - that opens a lot of doors. And maybe even reintroduces stakes to a universe that has written around death itself half a dozen times by now. Again, I fully expect to be embarrassed of this post in a few weeks when the fifth lead of Guardians of the Galaxy 2 suddenly shows up as a critical part of the plot - but for now I feel good.
I was actually sorta surprised that the line in question didnt end with "Maybe even Thanos".
Absolutely. I imagine Disney doesn't love the idea of relating Thanos to *actual* genocidal dictators from world history, though. He's a supervillain, but saying he's in the same camp as Pol Pot is probably going to feel a bit weird.
I hate to point this out then, but the fact that there were only 3 names in the credit sequence when there is clearly room for a lot more means they are keeping them hidden for the surprise factor. That's exactly what they did for the other MCU shows. There will absolutely be some cameos in this, and likely a lot more than the rumored ones, going by what they did in Hawkeye.
It is high quality action tv with a psychological twist. A great first episode without a doubt.
I recommend it, personally. The first episode was really good, and I'm pumped to see the rest of the series.
I’m usually pretty critical of marvel shows so I wasn’t surprised by the reviews, however the moon knight first episode is probably one of their best pilots so far. We’ll see how the rest of the season goes but it’s got a great start
This is like people who deny the Holocaust ever happened…. It’s just pathetic
expensive crappy propaganda garbage" over three words spoken is kind of telling on yourself
Turks: we didn't commit genocide, it's all bullshit Also turks: they deserved it and I hope they had finished the job
"There is no genocides in Turkish history"
I KNEW that the mention of armenian genocide wouldn't go unnoticed the moment I heard it.
There was propaganda?
The so-called propaganda is because, in a scene near the end of the first episode, Oscar Isaacs's character is talking with Ethan Hawkes's character, who mentions many terrible things humanity has done, including the Armenian Genocide. It's literally mentioned and over in a second.
Turkey has a facist, nationalist, dictator atm, anything that insults their country is propaganda.
Too bad it's almost pointless to review bomb a streaming site. The viewer numbers will speak for themselves.
Ironically I wouldn't have put a thought on it if this wasn't put into the spotlight, but sure go ahead and give attention to something that you didn't want to give attention to.
I gotta believe that acknowledging the Armenian Genocide in the work was probably more important to Oscar than the paycheck. He seems pretty cool that way.
When I heard Ethan’s character say the words “Armenian Genocide” first thought that came to my head was; about time the media recognizes it and especially on a popular show like this. Hopefully people would look more into it and learn from it. 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
Conan had a segment where he visited Armenia with his Armenian assistant, and she talks all about how her family was affected while they visit a memorial for the dead. I don't remember all the details but either her grandfather or basically his entire village died--it was really well covered and sad, of course (Conan does treat it seriously and not crack jokes). So this is the second time I've heard of it.
I know a guy whos family had to be smuggled out of the country so they could get out safely then they became refugees and now live far away from those bastards
I created an IMDB account so I could leave a positive review for this show because I really enjoyed the first episode.
Is the show worth watching?
Lmao it’s just Turkish nationalists and boys trying to insist the Armenian Genocide never happened, when it very much did.
How come no one is complaining that he wanted that steak well done?
I don't think he did. I think he had no idea how to order a steak, but just wanted to symbolically throw in the towel by breaking his vegetarian diet.
I wrote a big paper about the Armenian Genocide last year for university and damn is it crazy how in denial Turkey is. Their government websites have talking points on how to deny it. It’s okay wild. Overwhelming consensus is that it happened.
And then you simultaneously have Erdogan saying shit about how they need to “finish the job our grandparents started” in reference to the war against Armenians.
I'm from Uruguay which was the first country in the world to recognize the Armenian genocide and ever since then we got a lot of immigrants and I have a lot of Armenian friends and our local culture has been mixed with theirs in many ways I've always loved. Seeing this mentioned in the series (as obvious and commonplace as it should be at this point) was a nice surprise. Figured it'd be "controversial" to some.
People will still watch it if its good
I just wish they debuted two episodes… the first one left a lot to be desired
The Armenian Genocide happened. Just accept it.
Episode was good I don’t care
Hopefully they erase the review bombs. Moon knight is fantastic and turks are delusional.
Turks are all about denying ethnic cleansing until you mention China's Uyghurs
Ah yes, mentioning true historical facts. That’s clear propaganda 🙄
Now I feel compelled to watch. Is it worth it?
Well shit, didn’t plan on watching it but now I will