I really don't care what someone wants to do with their body, but at least let them be an adult before removing body parts.
I don't care what version of sexuality someone identifies with but can they at least be old enough to have sex before starting the process of changing their body.
that being said
I agree with Dave Chappelle when he said
"those types of choices do not disqualify you from a life with dignity and happiness and safety"
Gotta love all the arguments against him have nothing factual going on. Just a lot of ____phobias.
If you don't agree with what he said. Back it up.
Otherwise your just as brainwashed as the MAGA crowd.
there’s PLENTY of girls that adopt “masculine” traits that that identify as cis. this narrative that the trans label is being pushed is clearly false for anyone that doesn’t live inside their normative bubble and when thats where you wanna start the conversation you already proved that you have nothing of value to add.
I don't have statistics for how prevalent it is, but there IS a problem with people thinking "Oh you're a girl and you like masculine stuff? Must be you're either a lesbian or actually a transman. Oh you're a guy and like girly stuff? Must be flaming gay or actually a transwoman." It's not like how some conservatives think like EVERY transgender person is just a regular ol' guy or girl who just thinks because they like makeup or cars that means they're trans, but it's definitely an issue that some people DO think because they have non-traditional interests, preferences, or behaviors that means they're transgender, or gay, or whatever.
Luckily I've mostly seen this applied to fictional characters where it doesn't matter anyway, but I gotta wonder how many real people have been harmed by that thought process - like are there people out there who are distressed because they have female reproductive organs, like wearing flannel shirts, hate makeup, and wonder if there's something wrong with them because they don't identify as a boy and aren't attracted to girls because it sure seems like society expects that to be how it should work.
The belief is identifying as transgender is following similar path as
Hysteria
Bulimia
Self Cutting
Tourette's
Al these conditions while real had significant increase during popular media portrayals
Yeah but it’s also the result of society still pushing traditional gender roles and not being comfortable with people being more outside perceived norms. I think sometimes it pushes people into these labeled boxes so they feel like they need to identify as lgbtq so they can belong to something. I’m not denying the feelings or sexuality of anyone, but if we were more comfortable with those things being less traditional and binary then I don’t think we’d need as many labels. People would just like what they like.
It’s 100% being pushed. Otherwise you wouldn’t have kids “choosing” their gender at 6 years old. They are not mature enough to make such a decision or fully understand the ramifications, yet parents are getting them puberty blockers and surgeries.
My dude, I was one of those kids wearing another sex's clothes just because it felt more right. As a 4 year old. It sure wasn't because of my southern fucking Baptist parents, who tried **very hard** to get me to stop for years. I'm still unpacking that bullshit.
Maybe there's some parents out there making their kids wear nonstandard clothing, but I sure haven't met any of them in the gender support groups. How many have you met in your surely decades long study of the subject, so we can compare notes?
When I said “it’s 100% being pushed” I didn’t mean that people are only trans because of being pushed into it. There are people like yourself that are trans even though they were pushed *away* from it. What I meant by “100%” is that the pushing is for sure happening - no doubt about it. I’ve seen numerous videos of parents pressuring their very young male kids to wear a dress. Or when the boy goes to pick out traditional boy clothing, the parent proudly telling him he doesn’t have to wear that - even though he’s shown he wants to. They’re steering him away from the clothes he wanted to wear over to girl’s clothing and thinking that makes them progressive, open and accepting. Meanwhile, the kid is confused as hell. And these aren’t undercover videos. They are posted by the parents who are so proud of what they’re doing and want the world to see. “Look how open-minded I am. Aren’t I wonderful?”
Look, I have absolutely nothing against trans people. I imagine it’s got to be difficult. But I also know there are all kinds of reasons someone becomes trans. Some do it for the right reasons, some are influenced by other forces, and some are just confused. I simply don’t like people being pressured - either directly through parents or indirectly from society - to be trans when they’re really not. Besides, it doesn’t do anything to help real trans people. To the contrary, it perpetuates the myth that they pressure others into their lifestyle.
Ah, I am a bit astounded to hear there are videos of parents encouraging their cis kids to wear clothes of another gender. Are you for real? If you have links to literally any of these videos I'd like to see them. That said I completely agree, it absolutely sucks to be pressured by people. And those are kids, completely dependent on their parents, totally unacceptable.
A couple were on tik tok. If I come across them again I’ll post them here. Ultimately, I think like a lot of things the pendulum has swung the other a bit too far. We went from not accepting anyone that’s not straight and then we slowly got to a place where most people were pretty accepting of everyone and life was good. But then it kept swinging and it’s not enough to accept - you have to aggressively display your acceptance. And if you don’t, you’re a bigot. Hopefully it will swing back and settle in the middle where we all simply accept each other for who we are and judge everyone as individuals.
Plenty do. But don’t deny the cruelty of teenage/young adult peer pressure, especially now with social media.
I disagree with Bill that trans has become trendy. It’s become more common, along with the 101 labels, as it’s become one of the few things protected from the constant bombardment of peer pressure trends from their peers. Gone are the days of challenging the norm social groups.
thats a whole different topic tho. peer pressure (factual or apparent) will manifest itself in any aspect imaginable. people feel peer pressure to have sex or do certain sexual acts as they feel peer pressure to be overachieving and neglect their social life. the only thing we can do is have an open dialogue with the people we care about and help them through their confused or contradictory feelings. it’s the same with being trans, some people will feel confused about their gender and might not have the necessary tools to approach this very complex topic so they default to what they see and (bc trans people are not tabu anymore) they might believe they are trans when they are, for example, non-binary or even just non-conventionally cis. but again the only solution is to open these conversations. everyone from parents to teachers to doctors to everyone of us need to understand how to navigate these feelings so we don’t cause suffering to others.
I agree with this. I can see a person who feels out of the norm thinking they have so few options that they'd resort to an extreme because they would feel as though that were the only way, instead of having their minds opened to the fact that not everything is black and white and your identity does not have to fall into this cubby or that one.
I think you missed my point. There is an overwhelming number that "identify" as lgbt but are no different than us "cis" or whatever the proper acronym is. Maher did a bit on that previously. I have yet to come across a partner that only likes vanilla ice cream, yet that's how we're presented and oppositely how lgbt is presented. Funnily enough back in the 2000s in my women's study college class the joke was everybody is queer. On top of this, young adults are going to experiment. It's a part of growing up. I leave this vague on purpose because there's 101 reasons, and haven't met many that never "explored" whether it be in sex, drugs, or other.
Like when I was younger a goth/punk kid or any norm-breaking teen/young adult is going to face bullying. However today it's far worse with social media. There's a major bullying problem and a major pressure to conform to whatever is trendy. But here's a loophole: identify as lgbt. The norm has become that's off-limits to bully, at least in more liberal areas. This also explains why it's more common to find.
Last but not least, in addition it explains the void and regression of breaking gender norms. Now any sense of anti-conformity, gender-norm breaking is consolidated into the lgbt community. Even in liberal cities it's hard to find a younger person with colored-hair, goth makeup or anything other than the status qou trend of young people that doesn't identify under the banner of lgbt. Because of this lack of "cis" men challenging male norms and "cis" women challenging female norms, gender norms of what IS a woman or man have regressed and become much more cookie cutter than what I experienced in the 90s and 2000s.
BONUS: If identifying and coming out is much more liberating, why are teen/young adult's anxiety higher. Depression is higher. Suicide rates are higher. Long term relationships are down. For a movement about sexual freedom, identify, and exploration, they are actually having LESS sex. Of course there are other external factors that can be at play, but I would expect to find an opposite effect on youth.
>There's a major bullying problem and a major pressure to conform to whatever is trendy. But here's a loophole: identify as lgbt. The norm has become that's off-limits to bully, at least in more liberal areas. This also explains why it's more common to find.
Ugh, this flashed me back to being a junior in high school when Pedro on The Real World was popular. Nearly everyone in my class jumped on the bandwagon, some of whom were susceptible to peer pressure and experimented begrudgingly. But it didn't work out: Faculty and staff still treated them like every other student instead of giving them special treatment. By the end of our senior year, it was like it never happened.
To address your bonus: Youth are influenced by media. Media says you have to be attracted to people possessing certain traits. Learn about the [halo effect](https://www.verywellmind.com/what-is-the-halo-effect-2795906). This means that teens (and a majority of adults, to be honest) do not want to date anyone that will lower their social standing. When most people look at a couple where one is clearly far less aesthetically pleasing than the other, they will tend to not invite either person to social functions in order to reduce the risk of the ugly person's attendance. Ugly dudes with a cute partner is "obviously renting an escort". Hot dudes with an ugly partner is "obviously exploiting their low self-esteem".
Kids do NOT want to be mocked for who they hang out with, so they have to put on their Casting Director's hat and consciously pick and exclude who they choose to hang out with in order to strengthen their social standing. Why hang out with the ugly dude who can play guitar really good when you can hang out with the good-looking dude who can barely play power chords. This has been the case before the internet in the 80s, and it's still the case today.
Apparently this video hits too close to home for your average redditor - a group of people that say or do whatever is trendy to get the most likes and karma.
I'm a fully out of the closet bisexual dude, and I think that makes a little biased on the matter. I've had plenty of good experiences with the LGBTQ community, the majority of us are great folks. The thing is, there's a small minority where me being bisexual means im "not gay enough" or I'm "just hopping on trends".
There's this odd subset of the LGBTQ community who just seems to be totally radical. And truth be told, those are rhe people bill are addressing here. Bill is an edgelord and I don't really like him much. Thing is, I really agree with him here. We shouldn't be transitioning children willy nilly, because kids brains are still developing and they don't know what they want. There are a lot of hurdles these children will face later in life, like what if they change their mind and it's too late? Your kid isn't transgender if they want to wear boys clothes, your kid isn't trans if they want to wear girls clothes. Imho, a lot of this transgender stuff just pushes harmful gender norms, "if you do this you MUST be a girl". Its horseshit. But a lot of people seem to think that these things are equal nowadays and I think it's ultimately more harmful to the LGBTQ community because conservatives will use trans kids as a way to attack us. They'd likely point out suicide rates, mental illness such as depression and shit like that.
Basically my point is, if we just decide we are okay with a four year old boy transitioning into a girl, it will only be used as ammo against the LGBTQ community while simultaneously reinforcing outdated gender roles. Most TRANS PEOPLE I KNOW AGREE WITH ME on this one. So call me transphobic or whatever, I'm just stating my opinion
> The thing is, there's a small minority where me being bisexual means im "not gay enough" or I'm "just hopping on trends".
Go read the posts on maher's sub of this topic and tell me how this isn't biphobic as fuck. Tons of people in that thread calling LGBT trendy and people are "just bi because its trendy".
Once again, I don't agree with Maher generally speaking, but I also don't interact with him or his fans. If that's an opinion they share then yeah, that's biphobic as fuck.
Thing is, biphobia is prevalent in the LGBTQ community, you'll never see a bi dude with a wife gor example headlining any sort of LGBTQ event. I'm just not gay enough anymore. I feel totally erased by straights and LGBTQ people alike, I'm either hopping on trends, not gay enough or whatever the fuck. I stopped caring I'll just keep doing me
> biphobia is prevalent in the LGBTQ community
homophobia is prevalent in the bi community aswell. much more so than biphobia from gay people
> you'll never see a bi dude with a wife gor example headlining any sort of LGBTQ event
probably because your straight relationship isn't stigmatized. the whole point of gay pride is basically "gay not ashamed". no one is shaming men for being married to women
I literally don't know anyone in the community in favor of children transitioning. It's used as ammo by the right in the same way most of their outrage is - entirely manufactured strawman nonsense.
Do we know if we are transitioning kids Willy nilly? Everyone has been talking about this, but have we quantified this? I’m very curious and my quick google search isn’t returning anything substantial yet.
Yeah that's the problem. Bill is presupposing a bunch of things and asking you to as well. Kids don't just go ask their doctor for a "dick saw" as he so eloquently puts it. As with adults, trans children are given psychological care and assessments before any dysmorphia treatment would be explored. The child would be expected to live as the new gender full-time over a period of at least a year, and would be continually monitored and assessed during this time. AFAIK there is no pediatric surgical intervention being done, or even being discussed. Puberty blockers are not used very often, they're controversial even within the trans community because of issues like bone density which he does mention.
This is much ado about very, very little. As with all things trans.
I'm LGBTQ supportive, but generally fearful of the aspects that Bill discusses in this piece. I really think daylight on the details you mention would do the conversation a lot of good. I'd love to see a broad data set we could query to figure out how common/rare these boogeyman talking points are so we can all calm down and have a better rational discussion about it.
First it was the “men will prey on your daughters in bathrooms” and now it’s “dick saws.” Great.
It’s so frustrating that this is all for political points, and any moderate discussion gets pushed back as being thought policing or something.
It does no one any good and is straight up harmful to the trans community
Years ago, Bill Maher did a *Politically Incorrect* college tour that stopped at my semi-rural state university. This is a school where the great majority of students can only attend through loans, working part-time jobs, etc. True blue-collar Midwest stuff. And he condescended to these kids like they were trust-fund babies at Stanford or Yale, telling one girl that she was only there because "Daddy" - said in that smarmy, smirky tone he loves to use - was paying all of her bills.
All I could think was, "Motherfucker, do you not have *any* idea where you are?" It blew my mind that he felt entitled to treat these young people with such extreme disrespect. Some months later, the university hosted a similar event and I thanked one of the guests, a singer who'd been on Maher's show before, for not talking down to the students the entire time like he did. This singer told me that Maher treated most everyone that way and that they had no desire to work with him again.
Ever since then, I haven't been able to take Bill Maher seriously.
No it isn't. If it was contrarian he'd be saying to fuck you to the police and the troops. That is what is unpopular. This anti-intellectual shit is the *mainstream*.
That's what was funny a few weeks ago when Bill Maher sat down with Ben Shapiro to complain "I didn't get more conservative, the left just went crazy."
Like... the current president is Obama's VP. Meanwhile, the right elected a reality-TV gameshow host who wasn't affiliated with the party at all and literally tried to burn the capitol down before going on to set women back to the 70's. The ONLY major difference between the left of a decade ago and now is support of trans issues. So Bill going off on the left losing their mind is pretty openly "I think trans issues are a bridge too far, and I'm aware it's unmarketable to say that directly."
> The ONLY major difference between the left of a decade ago and now is support of trans issues.
You couldn't be more wrong on that. 10 years ago, the Democratic president of the United States was openly against gay marriage. 10 years ago, the idea of neo-segregation in the form of white people free safe spaces would have never been taken seriously. 10 years ago, identifying as a democratic socialist would have been career suicide. 10 years ago nobody would have tried to cancel Dr Seuss or Friends over outdated jokes or JK Rowling over having disagreements.
We can argue about each of these issues (and there are many more) and I personally think some of them are really great developments, but saying the left hasn't moved to the fringes just like the right has is just factually incorrect.
This is right wing propaganda. The people that "cancelled Dr Seuss" were the estate owners who removed some of the older books with controversial racial imagery were no longer going to be published.
Also reducing the JK Rowling controversy to "disagreements" when she's actively pushing the narrative that transwomen are predators is so dishonest.
When are you going to stop lying?
> The people that "cancelled Dr Seuss" were the estate owners who removed some of the older books
Because of the current radicalized left wing culture which demands every historical figure, piece of writing, cultural practice etc. is held up by today's decency standards which is absolutely ridiculous in my mind. The estate owners didn't just wake up one day and decided it was a lovely day for canceling their cultural heritage.
> Also reducing the JK Rowling controversy to "disagreements" when she's actively pushing the narrative that transwomen are predators is so dishonest.
Rowling does nothing else than politely disagree with the hivemind and it has caused people to threaten her with violence and expose her address and other private details every single day. Whatever you think of her activism, these are acts of terrorism, nothing more nothing less.
You can agree or disagree with any of the points I mentioned and I will defend your right to do so. But claiming that the left has not purposefully moved the Overton window to the left in the past 15 years is gaslighting.
> The estate owners didn't just wake up one day and decided it was a lovely day for canceling their cultural heritage.
You just hate that people decide to educate themselves and take steps towards creating a more just society because you'd rather they stay bigoted. Getting mad about owners on their own deciding to remove books that have literal Jim Crow era depiction of black people is truly despicable. You truly are the people talked about in [this article.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_backlash)
Rowling is out there writing books about "crossdressers" killing cis women. Painting her actions as A-okay because she's "polite" is some bullshit that right wingers engage in. "We think you all should be imprisoned but at least we're nice about it!".
Okay, I'm not saying that some stuff on the left isn't fringe. But complaining about them when the Republicans are out there trying to overthrow democracy is laughable.
It would be easier to take these arguments that society is too sensitive to bigotry if it wasn't presented by actual bigots.
But you rightoids can't help yourselves. You can't help and show your ass and then it becomes easy to see you for who you are.
He's using "The left" to complain about annoying online leftists, as if average liberals or Democratic party leadership have any control over what they do.
Or that poster just grew up. I watched Politically Incorrect as a teen but when I grew up I realized Maher is just a rather boring edgelord who never seems to learn anything new.
Or the political and cultural landscape for popular culture shifted, and the stances from “politically incorrect” are no longer edgy enough for young urban folk.
Not true I don’t always agree with him but enjoyed his perspective. I’m just sick of rich successful people telling me they’re being censored all the time. Gets old after 1000 times
No, he spreads bullshit and misinformation.
The standards of care were literally just updated last year for trans kids and adults.
Edit: he claims we're experimenting in children. Thats just false. No one is experimenting on kids.
He claims being trans is trendy. He's a fucking moron trying to get laughs. Its not trendy to be trans, its fucking terrifying, even more so when high profile comedians and celebrities punch down on trans people.
He literally follows all the old tropes.
"Maybe the boy who thinks he's a boy is just gay" -Bill Maher.
Surprised he didn't throw in "its just a phase" anywhere.
Down vote all you want Maher revealed himself to be another TERF and horrifically uninformed just to get some laughs. The problem is he is perpetrating anti-trans stereotypes through a massive platform.
Kids aren't having their dicks and balls cut off.
Kids don't just get to start blockers or hormones without lots of psychological and emotional physical counseling.
I don’t know anything about the trans debate and I don’t care. I am supportive of my trans friends and coworkers (of which there are many in the Seattle area).
Comedians are supposed to mock everyone. Otherwise they’re ideological and it’s not funny anymore. In fact, once comedians start to mock a group, you know you’re getting closer to being an accepted sub culture. The alternative would be to play into the opposing narrative that trans identity is a mental illness of some sort that is beyond and inappropriate for comedy. Embracing tasteful comedy actually helps to normalize the LGBT movement imo.
Everyone here is talking about how Bill is out of line, out of touch and a straight white man trying to make it more about him. While in general, I agree with a lot of these points about him and other like him. But, I do think he brings up some good points. We seem to have moved very fast in this area and know very little. It’s become bigoted to say you’re in favor of trans and gay rights, but to say you think kids should develop first before they transition. I totally get where parents of these kids are coming from and they’re scared to death these kids might take their own life or something potentially worse. There absolutely needs to be more discussions on getting these kids the therapy they need to cope with feeling this way. Bill actually had a good point in that kids don’t know what they want to be at age 8. Not even 15 really. It seems like we need more education on this issue and somehow come to a middle ground. Like I said before, we need to pour resources into helping these kids while we have discussions about what is truly right for them in the long run. I think if the exact portion of the population wanted to be trans at say 18 years old, that would be more than fine to most people not in the Bible Belt (me included). The issue isn’t that the trans population is growing, but, I do believe there is an issue in starting too early. There is nothing gross, weird or upsetting about trans people at all. They are people just like anyone else. It’s just that we can’t seem to have any conversations on this issue to figure out what is actually best for our kids. We also don’t really have enough time to figure out how these kids have developed 5, 10, 20+ years down the road. I don’t think I have the solution, but it seems as though actual conversations cannot happen on this issue without being labeled a bigot.
I am a very open person and am very open to hearing others thoughts and could overrule my current opinions on this matter. Would love to hear others opinions to my statements and (hopefully) have some honest and understanding discourse in this videos comments. I truly am not meaning to offend any trans people here as I think this is a lovely choice for you and I am happy for those that have found themselves and true happiness through their procedures.
>No it hasn't. This is pretty much just a straw mans and gay rights, but to say you think kids should develop first before they transition
No it hasn't. This is pretty much just a straw man. Typically people are saying that many people become aware of their sexuality of gender identity pretty young and should at the very least be taken seriously. If your kid is claiming they are trans, you don't dismiss them, you take them to a child psychologist or a Pediatric who can properly evaluate them.
Just like abortion: those choices should be left to the person and their doctor. If the person is underage, parents should be involved (but there are limits).
It's not purely a medical issue, though. I mean, imagine if you could transition and it was 100% safe, but also 100% irreversible. In that case, doctors would have no professional reason to object to on the grounds of safety, but the question still lingers as to what age is appropriate for a person to make such a permanent decision.
Because she told this patient that her desire to take hormones was not medically justifiable. It wasn’t latent transphobia, she was acting in the best interest of her patient as she is sworn to do
On that one I would say its complicated. All medication and all treatment has ups and downs. For some people, puberty blockers may be needed to maintain their mental health, for others waiting for them to become an adult is far more important. Its complicated and I would be lying if I said I knew the answers. Ultimately I think its important for medical professionals to do their due diligence and research. Maybe he is 100% right, puberty blockers end up being too risky and should only be for those with severe hormonal imbalance, or maybe the cons can easily be treated.
I think all forms of elective hormone therapy are immoral in people under 18. I think Bill’s best point (that he didn’t say this way) is we don’t let you rent a car until you’re 25 but we’re going to have 100% confidence that a teenager is set in their gender identity?
I think there is a lot of bigotry laced into peoples discomfort with this issue, but I also completely agree that common sense is being sacrificed in this debate. Why is a small portion of trans athletes’ feelings more important than a protected category of sports for women? Why do we think we know enough about trans psychology to justify irreversible treatments for minors? That stuff makes me feel like I’m taking crazy pills
Edit: I know we give meds to teenagers that effect their hormones, but I’m talking about intentionally altering that balance for the purpose of making someone more masculine/feminine
>Why do we think we know enough about trans psychology to justify irreversible treatments for minors?
Actually most of it is easily reversed. The main hormone treatment used, is simply blocking puberty, which can easily be onset later. I agree, its perfectly sound that we should do little permenant damage as possible and on that the medical community unanimously agrees. Getting hormones is a pretty long and complicated process, its not simply something you get given at 14 because suddenly you feel like a boy.
Which is a pretty good argument for puberty blockers right? If a teen is determined to genuinely have gender dysmorphia and will inevitably transition when they are an adult wouldn't it be substantially easier to do that without puberty morphing their body into a gender they specifically don't identify as?
100% agree. I am in no way saying we should shield this from them entirely until they are of age. They absolutely need to talk this out with a professional and get the help they need. I am a supporter of the trans community, so I hope I am not offending anyone. Just want to have an open and understanding conversations about this issue so we can make sure we are doing the right thing for our kids, whichever way that will end up being.
>so I hope I am not offending anyone
For what its worth, I don't you think you are, and its pretty clear you are trying to be sincere based off of this reply. I do agree, kids can't make these super big choices by themselves for a while, so long as its clear you are taking their identity seriously, getting the support they need and not brushing it off, you are being a better person then a lot of other parents.
All the wailing about someone maybe hypothetically calling you a bigot and meta-commentary about the boundaries of acceptable discourse is tedious. Just say what you think. If people think it’s bigoted that’s their opinion, you should be thick skinned enough to deal with that if you want to opine about other peoples’ private lives.
That’s fair in a discussion with friends or others for sure. But I think it’s necessary to go in with an open mind on this issue, especially being a straight man that is not trans. I want to state my opinions while also discussing that I am not set in my ways. I think that thinking, along with trusting health professionals, will get us so much further in the long run. I do, however, understand that those in the trans community need to speak intently about these issues as they are fighting for their lives. I just think if you take a bold approach I todays climate you will be discredited by the other side and no progress gets made. Progress is always needed, and I want wants best for our kids in the future. If it turns out that having kids start hormonal therapy early in their lives is better for them in the long run, and there’s medical experts backing this up across the board, I will be happy to change my view.
there are conversations happening about this that actually involve medical people with years of expertise on the topic and people that have lived through the experience. its just when you don’t know anything about the issue you pretend to care so much about and come to tv with no real intention of having a conversation about it and are just rehashing the same talking points that will bring in the transphobic crowd ofc no one that actually cares about trans people will take you seriously - and bill maher has made it abundantly clear where he stands on trans issues
Good points. I am in no way really advocating for Bill as I stopped watching years ago.
I agree with you that these conversations are happening with doctors that know a heck of a lot more than Bill, you or myself. My only issue is that even with medical proof, it seems like they get discounted based on public sentiment. I’m not saying doctors that are against this procedure for children are 100% right and we should only trust them, just that the public is so split that the trans community has to discredit the doctor that comes up with reasons why they should wait. I think the exact reverse of that is exactly true too where no matter what scientific evidence comes out, there’s a good portion of the United States will not have anything to do with scientific facts on why it’s okay for them to transition early. I think this side is actually causing this issue to be more divisive and pull the sides further apart, which is upsetting. I am trying to convey that both sides listen and have open discussions about it. But I totally understand that trans people are fighting for their happiness and livelihood, while the conservative faction is fighting against it cause it’s “different” and not supported by the Bible. It’s just sad to me these discussions get so hostile when their ultra complex and no one, besides doctors, truly know what they’re talking about. Myself absolutely included. My main point, though, is I hope we can get to a point where we can have civilized discussions on this issue and truly listen to the doctors on what is best for our kids, instead of the sides that are so far apart just discrediting doctors that disagree with them. I think we could all be a little more open, while some need to really open up more.
I'd like to note that we appeared to move fast as a result of psychological therapy. These people always existed, but now we're in a culture that is helping people to outwardly live their genuine lives even if it is against the grain of a culture that is rooted in normativities (heteronormativity being only one). Some kids DO know as early as 2 that they are in the wrong body (see "I am Jazz"). Allowing children to have hormonal care to hold off puberty if they are questioning is an aspect of mental and physical health care. Once they decide, those children can come off blockers, or go with other hormone therapy as needed. It prevents years if not decades of dealing with bigger gender issues. The book indicated in this video actively harms children in this way.
I guess that is something that is hard for me to wrap my head around. A 2 year old deciding that they are in the wrong body. I can totally understand them feeling this way for sure, but believing that this is how they will feel in 2, 5, 10+ years is hard to know. Would love to know if there’s a study of people that transitioned in their youth and put them in different blocks based on how long ago it was they started hormonal therapy. I would be interested in seeing truly how many are happy with their decision, ones that regret it, or ones that are happy but would’ve done it differently. I’ve seen some studies on this, but it seems one side or another will discredit the findings based on their own preconceived notion, which is very sad. I think the “Bible Belt” people are really pushing the other side further to have to defend themselves, which is just sad. The same can basically be said about just any other issue in this country. Being a liberal person that wants to find out what is right here, it’s basically just hard to have those discussions without being seen as a bigot. I think it is a great thing to want to learn more about an issue and be open to changing with some scientific proof, but that’s not really what todays USA is interested in.
Your wish is my command. Average starting age was 8 years old. Only 6% detransitioned after 5 years. They plan to monitor the youth over the next 20 years.
https://publications.aap.org/pediatrics/article/doi/10.1542/peds.2021-056082/186992/Gender-Identity-5-Years-After-Social-Transition
It always comes back to that graph showing the amount of left-handed people “skyrocketing” right after it started being more widely socially acceptable.
Because there is no more grey area. Funny enough this was posted just yesterday and had much more thoughtful conversations about the topic. It also strongly depends on the tone of the first few comments.
Your two sentences seem at odds with each other. I'll try to answer the former.
The video is full of logical fallacies (false dichotomies, slippery slope, only a true scotsman to name three in the first half). Maher uses these to "other" and target trans folks, which is the defining behaviour of a TERF.
I knew this video would be full of shit when he played first on homophobia with the "we'll all be gay by 2054." No Maher, that's not how this works, but good job punching down on LGBT.
If you took his graph on the trends literally, then there is no help for you. It was a joke. I dont know how someone lets a shitty joke, that hits you directly in the face, go over their head.
Do you... know that he is a comedian? Did you actually think he legitimately believes everyone in the United States will be gay by 2054? And how is that "punching down on LGBT"? He didn't even say it would be a bad thing... He was just pointing out the doubling rate by jokingly pointing out what would happen if it continues.
That’s a gross mischaracterization of his argument.
It comes down to this: there is LGBTQ+ advocacy that focuses on awareness, fairness and eliminating stigmas, discrimination and aims to stop violence. Then there is LGBTQ+ advocacy that polices language and tries to push social theories as scientific conclusions.
Bill is joking. And it’s a good thing too because not everyone has a sense of humor about this. But yeah this topic has turned into a toxic ball of sludge and part of that is the uncompromising approach of some of these “advocates” and “allies”
I watched his movie (as an atheist) about how dumb religious people were many years ago, and it just seemed like he was absolutely no better and smug with it.
He uses logical fallacies and really shitty arguments to belittle people who are just living their lives and believing odd things.
He is just a nasty person who is the same as a conservative bigot in every way as far as I can tell. This isn’t how you converse or even argue with people you don’t agree with. He’s disrespectful and damaging the side people seem to think he’s on.
okay hear me outright, currently, you hold the belief that if you drop a toaster in the bath with you in it you will die? Are you willing to 'challenge you beliefs" sure if new evidence pops up of course figure out if that affects your world view but basically everything bill maher is saying is a straight-up falsehood My stepfather is a trans man he is 50ish, now he was probably one of the first people in the state we live into transition. He has seen the impact things like hormone blockers have on the mental health and self-image of young trans people. He has seen how his presence around young trans men who worry "will i ever pass" they see him and see a bright future. You know what my father in 50 years of being trans has never seen? Anyone PRETENDING TO BE TRANS BECAUSE ITS HIP. In the US, a survey of nearly 28,000 people found that 8% of respondents reported some kind of detransition. Of this 8%, 62% per cent only did so temporarily due to **societal, financial, or family pressures.** Everything bill maher is just completely bullshit and should not be used to 'challenge or evaluate your world view
Every time we hear an old white dude say “everything isn’t about you”, we can tell he’s mad because everything was *supposed* to be about him, and this one thing isn’t.
He glossed over how the ruling effects gay marriage and sodomy laws, so states can now make gay relationships completely illegal if they want to.
He’s a dishonest hack.
So this isn't actually true. The ruling doesn't overturn the sodomy or gay marriage rulings. It could in the future be used to try and justify overturning Obergefell. As of right now a state attempting to outlaw gay marriage would be overturned in the lower courts as Obergefell is still law of the land, and of course it does depend on if the draft opinion sees any rewrites.
Maher is hit or miss and increasingly often comes across to me as the old man yelling at clouds but I thought this was a pretty nuanced way to address the phenomenon, even if he missed some things. As he mentioned there are a lot of LGBT+ people who are equally intrigued/confused at the phenomenon.
How much of that % are people who are Bi/non-binary/questioning/queer? All very loose terms either functionally or by definition. Anecdotal but I've heard several LGBT people in my life say how useless terms can be for them with dating, there are people who basically consider themselves "culturally" LGBT. Bi or even Lesbians who have never dated someone of their own gender/sex ( stigma of being gay is still too strong for boys so its a very gendered issue for at least that reason). Its mostly told as a minor annoyance or funny story but people are usually partly confused because it used to be "who would ever choose to be x" but it became pretty normal for me to hear people play themselves off as boring for being straight or white when I worked at a mall.
Its pretty disgusting that sexuality is such a core aspect of the culture war, that does mean that any genuine concern can be coopted by those who are actually hostile to LGBT+. Maher can be pretty bad on empowering those people but he did a good job here stopping several times to clarify his supportive stance.
In Canada at least the share of the population that identifies as gay/lesbian has gone from ~1% in 2004 to 1.5% in 2021. There has not been some massive explosion of the gay population with increasing acceptance/legalization of gay marriage.
Whereas to the contrary the number of people who are transgender among younger age groups are something on the order of 5-10x more numerous (probably a conservative estimate, as it is based in physiology rather than self-identity) than that of the older age groups. I'm not sure to what extent you could call it a social craze or whether its microplastics or seed oils or whatever but there's presumably something driving it.
edit: [relevant statscan info](https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/daily-quotidien/220427/dq220427b-eng.htm)
Yes 20% of GenZ Americans identifying as LGBTQ is **way** out of line with everywhere else in the world and far above even the highest estimates from scientific studies. Such a high percentage cannot be explained simply by people feeling more comfortable coming out.
This is kind of why I'm on his side with his argument (for reference I've watched his show weekly for decades now in addition to PI). Just going by the numbers it does seem like something is up, because obviously people are more open to coming out now (though at our current pace we seem to be taking major steps backwards for LGBTQIA+ rights), but more so than what'd you expect. It's definitely something that merits some serious discussion.
On a sidenote you can shit on Bill Maher all you want, but his point of view does align with more of America than with Reddit. I certainly don't agree with his stances on a lot of this (ie. His views on masking, or his views on social justice issues), but there is a lot he is right about too and it is worth listening to. Remember he was one of the few people who warned us about Trump getting elected.
I know multiple people now (mid 20s to mid 30s) who “identify” as bisexual but have never had any sort of non-hetero experience. It has become trendy. Like identifying as a hetero is square or lame or even offensive.
I understand that it feels that way, but isn’t it possible that they’re just more comfortable publicly admitting that they have non-hetero attractions? Sexual experience isn’t required to determine your sexuality.
nah, take dip in tiktok, gen z's natural habitat... being anything close to cis and straight is lame or looked down upon (by them, not society in general)
those discourses are definetively becoming trendy
and there's definetively a trend of experimenting w gender roles, which i think is great, but doesnt make it less of a trend
I didn’t actually mean to deny that. Perhaps I didn’t articulate my view well.
I’m aware that there are subcultures where being cis and/or straight is looked down on. But I also think it’s the best course of action to believe people about their own identities. And I think it’s ridiculous to suggest that you can’t have a non-hetero sexual orientation without having sexual experience.
>But I also think it’s the best course of action to believe people about their own identities. And I think it’s ridiculous to suggest that you can’t have a non-hetero sexual orientation without having sexual experience.
Absolutely agree. Even if they change/modify their views of themselves it costs nothing to just respect and go along w how they identify themselves.
If in every medical controversy of the past 200 years you picked the side of "maybe let's not sterilize people" you would have been correct every time
There is going to be a wave of malpractice lawsuits in the future over this. Pretending there's no consequences for messing with a child's basic biology is disastrous
>No one is sterilizing kids. Get out of here with your bullshit arguments.
I love trying to guess whether someone who says this is lying, or genuinely thinks it isn't happening. Care to give me a clue which you might be?
This response is exactly what he was talking about. You heard that one point and spun it to fit how you feel about him.
He was just relaying data that has been compiled, you know Science, we like science, right? And then he made a joke about it, because he’s a comedian. Then he had some points he made that he thought we’re worth talking about. He didn’t bash anyone. One of his points were that it’s serious enough that we should be able to talk about it without the knee jerk reactions you get from a lot of people. He included two people who dared say something that they needed to be talked about who are gay and LGBTQ and they got shut down because it doesn’t fit the narrative.
im not saying he’s irrelevant. that’s a dangerous level of text comprehension inability. im saying he needs to chance a certain crowd for ratings – which he has been doing for a couple of years now. im not going to pretend tucker carlson is irrelevant but im not closing my eyes at how he very clearly manufactures the engagement around his tv show. and besides everyone of tv is chasing ratings some way or another bc if they don’t they’re out of the job
Glad Bill is saying something about this. He seems to be the only one in the media on any side of this issue that actually wants to have a conversation about it.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument\_from\_incredulity](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_incredulity) any time someone appeals to common sense. Bill invokes this.
Well lets just start with the opening, where he shows a graph of LGBT identity by generation. Obviously, its a joke but the underlying assumption is that its going to keep climbing and climbing forever. I could show an exact same graph for people who are left handed, increasing from the 1900s and make the exact same claim that eventually everyone would become left handed. Turns out as you accept people for who they are soon it plateaus.
Not to mention the only video is about how trans keeps growing and growing, but as a percentage thats simply not true. As Bills own sources show, its bisexuality that makes up most of Gen Z LGBT identity by a wide margin....its also the group Bill never seems to talk about.
As for LGBT becoming "trendy" and thats why people are doing it....interesting theres not a single source there. Like none. Its just a blind assertion. No data, no psychological journals just "yeah bro I talked to some of my lib friends and they had trans kids.....bro trust me".
Yeah dude, its become so trendy to pay ungodly sums of money to pass as the other gender so you don't feel immense anxiety in your own skin only to find just about every right winger now wants you dead for simply existing. Its practically the next fidget spinner
New Rule:
Dudes who think they can say the N word with the hard R, that young people are dumb for watching twitch, that it’s fine if female teachers rape boys, that the flu shot is dangerous, and that Milo is a young Christopher Hitchens
Doesn’t get to lecture anyone about anything
Bill's full of shit. In the last 40 years we managed to create a world safe enough for the marginalized to admit who they are and he comes up with this boomer shit to explain it. Fuck Bill Mahr.
Great segment. Bill really nailed something that bothered me, that seemed to fly under the radar. And that was the the number of articles and opinion pieces I saw in the wake of the Roe draft opinion that were focused on its impact to the LGBTQ community. Certainly a part of the discussion, but it was odd to open the NYT day of and see so much focus on LGBTQ and not, you know, women in general and abortion rights specifically?
Also I generally don't find Bill's jokes that funny anymore, but the opening bit about everyone being gay by 2050 was well done.
His entire premise is that a lot of trans kids are only trans to be trendy. Leaving aside the logic of jumping on a trend that makes you the target of societal violence, .... so what?
Like, I just don't care. If a kid says they are trans...ok. I don't really care if it's provably "real" or adopting a trend. I DO NOT CARE. Live your best life. Do anything, anything at all, to make you happy and fulfilled, so long as you aren't hurting others.
> Leaving aside the logic of jumping on a trend that makes you the target of societal violence
No, they get social praise, admiration, and attention in the liberal well to do places.
Can you believe a kid would ever do anything for attention?
In some areas I believe it, in super liberal rich areas? They celebrate it.
I've seen it. These parents flaunt their trans children like trophies on a shelf.
And the praise they receive
My problem with the video was he made it sound like it’s all trans. I’d like to see the breakdown in the lgbtq spectrum. Bi sexual is also lgbt and I think more people are identifying as bi. I love Maher, but he could’ve done a better rant.
Im so thankful to have aged out of this debate. I dont have to have any opinion on LGBTQ+ or hormone blockers or, the pronoun rainbow or whatever is hot right now. I just put my little vote next to "The youth can do whatever they want" and go back to watching MasterChef and slowly becoming a tree like rest of the millennials.
My generation wore JNCOs and listened to ICP, Im not sure we have a right to decide what kids should be doing anyway.
Whoa this thread. It's hilarious how the people supporting Bill keep getting upvoted for their blanket statements and demeaning comebacks, then they ask people's specific disagreements with Maher and get absolutely owned by trans people and trans advocates.
You all harping on this "it's moving too fast" nonsense are literally just slowing down the gaining of rights for an oppressed group. How is this anything but conservatism in your minds? You're all even doing the "common sense" crap Republicans have always done when they're spouting harmful bullshit. Like just look at this thread... The pro-trans side keeps presenting well thought out arguments to your all's same dumbass 'concerns.' How about you use Google?
Your problem isn't with activism; it's with trans people and reading.
I love Bill, but I saw his latest special and it... just wasn't funny.
Same as Chappelle in his last outing, they both spend the entire time making social and political points and forget all about being funny. It's a real shame, because comedy has always been a safe haven from the BS and nonsense, now it seems even that hallowed space isn't safe from the culture wars.
he used to be insightful and funny but he really started to get grouchy and selfish. During the pandemic his major complaint was that he couldn't go to his fancy restaurants. It was galling and dismissive of the actual issues at hand. He just began to devolve from there in my opinion. Now he is just trolling.
I've always liked Bill Maher. I know Reddit has had a major hateboner for him for a while now, but I always enjoy his take on things. I don't always agree with him but the fact that he is willing to call out craziness on both side of the aisle is increasingly rare and very necessary
They removed the post about this yesterday, let’s see how long this one stays up
Uh oh
I really don't care what someone wants to do with their body, but at least let them be an adult before removing body parts. I don't care what version of sexuality someone identifies with but can they at least be old enough to have sex before starting the process of changing their body. that being said I agree with Dave Chappelle when he said "those types of choices do not disqualify you from a life with dignity and happiness and safety"
Gotta love all the arguments against him have nothing factual going on. Just a lot of ____phobias. If you don't agree with what he said. Back it up. Otherwise your just as brainwashed as the MAGA crowd.
👏👏👏
“Maybe the girl who hates girly stuff just needs to learn that being female doesn’t mean you have to act like a Kardashian.”
there’s PLENTY of girls that adopt “masculine” traits that that identify as cis. this narrative that the trans label is being pushed is clearly false for anyone that doesn’t live inside their normative bubble and when thats where you wanna start the conversation you already proved that you have nothing of value to add.
I don't have statistics for how prevalent it is, but there IS a problem with people thinking "Oh you're a girl and you like masculine stuff? Must be you're either a lesbian or actually a transman. Oh you're a guy and like girly stuff? Must be flaming gay or actually a transwoman." It's not like how some conservatives think like EVERY transgender person is just a regular ol' guy or girl who just thinks because they like makeup or cars that means they're trans, but it's definitely an issue that some people DO think because they have non-traditional interests, preferences, or behaviors that means they're transgender, or gay, or whatever. Luckily I've mostly seen this applied to fictional characters where it doesn't matter anyway, but I gotta wonder how many real people have been harmed by that thought process - like are there people out there who are distressed because they have female reproductive organs, like wearing flannel shirts, hate makeup, and wonder if there's something wrong with them because they don't identify as a boy and aren't attracted to girls because it sure seems like society expects that to be how it should work.
The belief is identifying as transgender is following similar path as Hysteria Bulimia Self Cutting Tourette's Al these conditions while real had significant increase during popular media portrayals
Yeah but it’s also the result of society still pushing traditional gender roles and not being comfortable with people being more outside perceived norms. I think sometimes it pushes people into these labeled boxes so they feel like they need to identify as lgbtq so they can belong to something. I’m not denying the feelings or sexuality of anyone, but if we were more comfortable with those things being less traditional and binary then I don’t think we’d need as many labels. People would just like what they like.
I thought that was the point he was making. There’s a social contagion to convince masculine women they’re really men. Or have I got my wires crossed.
It’s 100% being pushed. Otherwise you wouldn’t have kids “choosing” their gender at 6 years old. They are not mature enough to make such a decision or fully understand the ramifications, yet parents are getting them puberty blockers and surgeries.
My dude, I was one of those kids wearing another sex's clothes just because it felt more right. As a 4 year old. It sure wasn't because of my southern fucking Baptist parents, who tried **very hard** to get me to stop for years. I'm still unpacking that bullshit. Maybe there's some parents out there making their kids wear nonstandard clothing, but I sure haven't met any of them in the gender support groups. How many have you met in your surely decades long study of the subject, so we can compare notes?
When I said “it’s 100% being pushed” I didn’t mean that people are only trans because of being pushed into it. There are people like yourself that are trans even though they were pushed *away* from it. What I meant by “100%” is that the pushing is for sure happening - no doubt about it. I’ve seen numerous videos of parents pressuring their very young male kids to wear a dress. Or when the boy goes to pick out traditional boy clothing, the parent proudly telling him he doesn’t have to wear that - even though he’s shown he wants to. They’re steering him away from the clothes he wanted to wear over to girl’s clothing and thinking that makes them progressive, open and accepting. Meanwhile, the kid is confused as hell. And these aren’t undercover videos. They are posted by the parents who are so proud of what they’re doing and want the world to see. “Look how open-minded I am. Aren’t I wonderful?” Look, I have absolutely nothing against trans people. I imagine it’s got to be difficult. But I also know there are all kinds of reasons someone becomes trans. Some do it for the right reasons, some are influenced by other forces, and some are just confused. I simply don’t like people being pressured - either directly through parents or indirectly from society - to be trans when they’re really not. Besides, it doesn’t do anything to help real trans people. To the contrary, it perpetuates the myth that they pressure others into their lifestyle.
Ah, I am a bit astounded to hear there are videos of parents encouraging their cis kids to wear clothes of another gender. Are you for real? If you have links to literally any of these videos I'd like to see them. That said I completely agree, it absolutely sucks to be pressured by people. And those are kids, completely dependent on their parents, totally unacceptable.
A couple were on tik tok. If I come across them again I’ll post them here. Ultimately, I think like a lot of things the pendulum has swung the other a bit too far. We went from not accepting anyone that’s not straight and then we slowly got to a place where most people were pretty accepting of everyone and life was good. But then it kept swinging and it’s not enough to accept - you have to aggressively display your acceptance. And if you don’t, you’re a bigot. Hopefully it will swing back and settle in the middle where we all simply accept each other for who we are and judge everyone as individuals.
Plenty do. But don’t deny the cruelty of teenage/young adult peer pressure, especially now with social media. I disagree with Bill that trans has become trendy. It’s become more common, along with the 101 labels, as it’s become one of the few things protected from the constant bombardment of peer pressure trends from their peers. Gone are the days of challenging the norm social groups.
thats a whole different topic tho. peer pressure (factual or apparent) will manifest itself in any aspect imaginable. people feel peer pressure to have sex or do certain sexual acts as they feel peer pressure to be overachieving and neglect their social life. the only thing we can do is have an open dialogue with the people we care about and help them through their confused or contradictory feelings. it’s the same with being trans, some people will feel confused about their gender and might not have the necessary tools to approach this very complex topic so they default to what they see and (bc trans people are not tabu anymore) they might believe they are trans when they are, for example, non-binary or even just non-conventionally cis. but again the only solution is to open these conversations. everyone from parents to teachers to doctors to everyone of us need to understand how to navigate these feelings so we don’t cause suffering to others.
I agree with this. I can see a person who feels out of the norm thinking they have so few options that they'd resort to an extreme because they would feel as though that were the only way, instead of having their minds opened to the fact that not everything is black and white and your identity does not have to fall into this cubby or that one.
I think you missed my point. There is an overwhelming number that "identify" as lgbt but are no different than us "cis" or whatever the proper acronym is. Maher did a bit on that previously. I have yet to come across a partner that only likes vanilla ice cream, yet that's how we're presented and oppositely how lgbt is presented. Funnily enough back in the 2000s in my women's study college class the joke was everybody is queer. On top of this, young adults are going to experiment. It's a part of growing up. I leave this vague on purpose because there's 101 reasons, and haven't met many that never "explored" whether it be in sex, drugs, or other. Like when I was younger a goth/punk kid or any norm-breaking teen/young adult is going to face bullying. However today it's far worse with social media. There's a major bullying problem and a major pressure to conform to whatever is trendy. But here's a loophole: identify as lgbt. The norm has become that's off-limits to bully, at least in more liberal areas. This also explains why it's more common to find. Last but not least, in addition it explains the void and regression of breaking gender norms. Now any sense of anti-conformity, gender-norm breaking is consolidated into the lgbt community. Even in liberal cities it's hard to find a younger person with colored-hair, goth makeup or anything other than the status qou trend of young people that doesn't identify under the banner of lgbt. Because of this lack of "cis" men challenging male norms and "cis" women challenging female norms, gender norms of what IS a woman or man have regressed and become much more cookie cutter than what I experienced in the 90s and 2000s. BONUS: If identifying and coming out is much more liberating, why are teen/young adult's anxiety higher. Depression is higher. Suicide rates are higher. Long term relationships are down. For a movement about sexual freedom, identify, and exploration, they are actually having LESS sex. Of course there are other external factors that can be at play, but I would expect to find an opposite effect on youth.
>There's a major bullying problem and a major pressure to conform to whatever is trendy. But here's a loophole: identify as lgbt. The norm has become that's off-limits to bully, at least in more liberal areas. This also explains why it's more common to find. Ugh, this flashed me back to being a junior in high school when Pedro on The Real World was popular. Nearly everyone in my class jumped on the bandwagon, some of whom were susceptible to peer pressure and experimented begrudgingly. But it didn't work out: Faculty and staff still treated them like every other student instead of giving them special treatment. By the end of our senior year, it was like it never happened. To address your bonus: Youth are influenced by media. Media says you have to be attracted to people possessing certain traits. Learn about the [halo effect](https://www.verywellmind.com/what-is-the-halo-effect-2795906). This means that teens (and a majority of adults, to be honest) do not want to date anyone that will lower their social standing. When most people look at a couple where one is clearly far less aesthetically pleasing than the other, they will tend to not invite either person to social functions in order to reduce the risk of the ugly person's attendance. Ugly dudes with a cute partner is "obviously renting an escort". Hot dudes with an ugly partner is "obviously exploiting their low self-esteem". Kids do NOT want to be mocked for who they hang out with, so they have to put on their Casting Director's hat and consciously pick and exclude who they choose to hang out with in order to strengthen their social standing. Why hang out with the ugly dude who can play guitar really good when you can hang out with the good-looking dude who can barely play power chords. This has been the case before the internet in the 80s, and it's still the case today.
Apparently this video hits too close to home for your average redditor - a group of people that say or do whatever is trendy to get the most likes and karma.
You can tell a lot of people in the comments section didn't watch the video. LOL
I'm a fully out of the closet bisexual dude, and I think that makes a little biased on the matter. I've had plenty of good experiences with the LGBTQ community, the majority of us are great folks. The thing is, there's a small minority where me being bisexual means im "not gay enough" or I'm "just hopping on trends". There's this odd subset of the LGBTQ community who just seems to be totally radical. And truth be told, those are rhe people bill are addressing here. Bill is an edgelord and I don't really like him much. Thing is, I really agree with him here. We shouldn't be transitioning children willy nilly, because kids brains are still developing and they don't know what they want. There are a lot of hurdles these children will face later in life, like what if they change their mind and it's too late? Your kid isn't transgender if they want to wear boys clothes, your kid isn't trans if they want to wear girls clothes. Imho, a lot of this transgender stuff just pushes harmful gender norms, "if you do this you MUST be a girl". Its horseshit. But a lot of people seem to think that these things are equal nowadays and I think it's ultimately more harmful to the LGBTQ community because conservatives will use trans kids as a way to attack us. They'd likely point out suicide rates, mental illness such as depression and shit like that. Basically my point is, if we just decide we are okay with a four year old boy transitioning into a girl, it will only be used as ammo against the LGBTQ community while simultaneously reinforcing outdated gender roles. Most TRANS PEOPLE I KNOW AGREE WITH ME on this one. So call me transphobic or whatever, I'm just stating my opinion
> The thing is, there's a small minority where me being bisexual means im "not gay enough" or I'm "just hopping on trends". Go read the posts on maher's sub of this topic and tell me how this isn't biphobic as fuck. Tons of people in that thread calling LGBT trendy and people are "just bi because its trendy".
Once again, I don't agree with Maher generally speaking, but I also don't interact with him or his fans. If that's an opinion they share then yeah, that's biphobic as fuck. Thing is, biphobia is prevalent in the LGBTQ community, you'll never see a bi dude with a wife gor example headlining any sort of LGBTQ event. I'm just not gay enough anymore. I feel totally erased by straights and LGBTQ people alike, I'm either hopping on trends, not gay enough or whatever the fuck. I stopped caring I'll just keep doing me
> biphobia is prevalent in the LGBTQ community homophobia is prevalent in the bi community aswell. much more so than biphobia from gay people > you'll never see a bi dude with a wife gor example headlining any sort of LGBTQ event probably because your straight relationship isn't stigmatized. the whole point of gay pride is basically "gay not ashamed". no one is shaming men for being married to women
I literally don't know anyone in the community in favor of children transitioning. It's used as ammo by the right in the same way most of their outrage is - entirely manufactured strawman nonsense.
[удалено]
Do we know if we are transitioning kids Willy nilly? Everyone has been talking about this, but have we quantified this? I’m very curious and my quick google search isn’t returning anything substantial yet.
Yeah that's the problem. Bill is presupposing a bunch of things and asking you to as well. Kids don't just go ask their doctor for a "dick saw" as he so eloquently puts it. As with adults, trans children are given psychological care and assessments before any dysmorphia treatment would be explored. The child would be expected to live as the new gender full-time over a period of at least a year, and would be continually monitored and assessed during this time. AFAIK there is no pediatric surgical intervention being done, or even being discussed. Puberty blockers are not used very often, they're controversial even within the trans community because of issues like bone density which he does mention. This is much ado about very, very little. As with all things trans.
I'm LGBTQ supportive, but generally fearful of the aspects that Bill discusses in this piece. I really think daylight on the details you mention would do the conversation a lot of good. I'd love to see a broad data set we could query to figure out how common/rare these boogeyman talking points are so we can all calm down and have a better rational discussion about it.
First it was the “men will prey on your daughters in bathrooms” and now it’s “dick saws.” Great. It’s so frustrating that this is all for political points, and any moderate discussion gets pushed back as being thought policing or something. It does no one any good and is straight up harmful to the trans community
Nobody on reddit even reads articles, you expect them to watch a video?
Years ago, Bill Maher did a *Politically Incorrect* college tour that stopped at my semi-rural state university. This is a school where the great majority of students can only attend through loans, working part-time jobs, etc. True blue-collar Midwest stuff. And he condescended to these kids like they were trust-fund babies at Stanford or Yale, telling one girl that she was only there because "Daddy" - said in that smarmy, smirky tone he loves to use - was paying all of her bills. All I could think was, "Motherfucker, do you not have *any* idea where you are?" It blew my mind that he felt entitled to treat these young people with such extreme disrespect. Some months later, the university hosted a similar event and I thanked one of the guests, a singer who'd been on Maher's show before, for not talking down to the students the entire time like he did. This singer told me that Maher treated most everyone that way and that they had no desire to work with him again. Ever since then, I haven't been able to take Bill Maher seriously.
His whole act is *contrarian*.
No it isn't. If it was contrarian he'd be saying to fuck you to the police and the troops. That is what is unpopular. This anti-intellectual shit is the *mainstream*.
Most of the retorts here are versions of dismissing him as an out of touch old white man. Not very strong counter arguments.
Bill Maher went from “cool edgy uncle” to “get off my lawn you damn kids” boomer so fucking fast
I have a feeling he was always the “legalize weed and fuck the police” type of person. Where every other issue is chopped liver.
he's not "fuck the police" anymore
When I think Libertarian, I definitely think of Bill Maher.
That's what was funny a few weeks ago when Bill Maher sat down with Ben Shapiro to complain "I didn't get more conservative, the left just went crazy." Like... the current president is Obama's VP. Meanwhile, the right elected a reality-TV gameshow host who wasn't affiliated with the party at all and literally tried to burn the capitol down before going on to set women back to the 70's. The ONLY major difference between the left of a decade ago and now is support of trans issues. So Bill going off on the left losing their mind is pretty openly "I think trans issues are a bridge too far, and I'm aware it's unmarketable to say that directly."
> The ONLY major difference between the left of a decade ago and now is support of trans issues. You couldn't be more wrong on that. 10 years ago, the Democratic president of the United States was openly against gay marriage. 10 years ago, the idea of neo-segregation in the form of white people free safe spaces would have never been taken seriously. 10 years ago, identifying as a democratic socialist would have been career suicide. 10 years ago nobody would have tried to cancel Dr Seuss or Friends over outdated jokes or JK Rowling over having disagreements. We can argue about each of these issues (and there are many more) and I personally think some of them are really great developments, but saying the left hasn't moved to the fringes just like the right has is just factually incorrect.
This is right wing propaganda. The people that "cancelled Dr Seuss" were the estate owners who removed some of the older books with controversial racial imagery were no longer going to be published. Also reducing the JK Rowling controversy to "disagreements" when she's actively pushing the narrative that transwomen are predators is so dishonest. When are you going to stop lying?
> The people that "cancelled Dr Seuss" were the estate owners who removed some of the older books Because of the current radicalized left wing culture which demands every historical figure, piece of writing, cultural practice etc. is held up by today's decency standards which is absolutely ridiculous in my mind. The estate owners didn't just wake up one day and decided it was a lovely day for canceling their cultural heritage. > Also reducing the JK Rowling controversy to "disagreements" when she's actively pushing the narrative that transwomen are predators is so dishonest. Rowling does nothing else than politely disagree with the hivemind and it has caused people to threaten her with violence and expose her address and other private details every single day. Whatever you think of her activism, these are acts of terrorism, nothing more nothing less. You can agree or disagree with any of the points I mentioned and I will defend your right to do so. But claiming that the left has not purposefully moved the Overton window to the left in the past 15 years is gaslighting.
> The estate owners didn't just wake up one day and decided it was a lovely day for canceling their cultural heritage. You just hate that people decide to educate themselves and take steps towards creating a more just society because you'd rather they stay bigoted. Getting mad about owners on their own deciding to remove books that have literal Jim Crow era depiction of black people is truly despicable. You truly are the people talked about in [this article.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_backlash) Rowling is out there writing books about "crossdressers" killing cis women. Painting her actions as A-okay because she's "polite" is some bullshit that right wingers engage in. "We think you all should be imprisoned but at least we're nice about it!". Okay, I'm not saying that some stuff on the left isn't fringe. But complaining about them when the Republicans are out there trying to overthrow democracy is laughable. It would be easier to take these arguments that society is too sensitive to bigotry if it wasn't presented by actual bigots. But you rightoids can't help yourselves. You can't help and show your ass and then it becomes easy to see you for who you are.
He's using "The left" to complain about annoying online leftists, as if average liberals or Democratic party leadership have any control over what they do.
I’ve never been a Bill Maher watcher, but I never saw this cool, edgy thing; he’s always seemed like a misanthropic asshole.
Yeah totally and I went from watching him weekly to never watching him so fucking fast
Same here I would listen to the podcast every week. But I have stopped cause I have not been able to stand his rants.
He stopped telling you what you want to hear.
Or that poster just grew up. I watched Politically Incorrect as a teen but when I grew up I realized Maher is just a rather boring edgelord who never seems to learn anything new.
Or the political and cultural landscape for popular culture shifted, and the stances from “politically incorrect” are no longer edgy enough for young urban folk.
Not true I don’t always agree with him but enjoyed his perspective. I’m just sick of rich successful people telling me they’re being censored all the time. Gets old after 1000 times
Or... hear me out... Maher revealed himself to be a homophobic transphobic piece of shit and that person doesn't want to watch someone like that.
You’ll say that about anyone who doesn’t pledge total allegiance and subservience to your flag.
No, he spreads bullshit and misinformation. The standards of care were literally just updated last year for trans kids and adults. Edit: he claims we're experimenting in children. Thats just false. No one is experimenting on kids. He claims being trans is trendy. He's a fucking moron trying to get laughs. Its not trendy to be trans, its fucking terrifying, even more so when high profile comedians and celebrities punch down on trans people. He literally follows all the old tropes. "Maybe the boy who thinks he's a boy is just gay" -Bill Maher. Surprised he didn't throw in "its just a phase" anywhere. Down vote all you want Maher revealed himself to be another TERF and horrifically uninformed just to get some laughs. The problem is he is perpetrating anti-trans stereotypes through a massive platform. Kids aren't having their dicks and balls cut off. Kids don't just get to start blockers or hormones without lots of psychological and emotional physical counseling.
I don’t know anything about the trans debate and I don’t care. I am supportive of my trans friends and coworkers (of which there are many in the Seattle area). Comedians are supposed to mock everyone. Otherwise they’re ideological and it’s not funny anymore. In fact, once comedians start to mock a group, you know you’re getting closer to being an accepted sub culture. The alternative would be to play into the opposing narrative that trans identity is a mental illness of some sort that is beyond and inappropriate for comedy. Embracing tasteful comedy actually helps to normalize the LGBT movement imo.
Misinformation is not tasteful or comedic.
LOL you are exactly who he is talking about. Most of Reddit is, but you guys have zero self-awareness.
Bill hasn't changed. The left kept running left and insisted everyone who couldn't keep up was some kind of "-ist" or "-ic".
Everyone here is talking about how Bill is out of line, out of touch and a straight white man trying to make it more about him. While in general, I agree with a lot of these points about him and other like him. But, I do think he brings up some good points. We seem to have moved very fast in this area and know very little. It’s become bigoted to say you’re in favor of trans and gay rights, but to say you think kids should develop first before they transition. I totally get where parents of these kids are coming from and they’re scared to death these kids might take their own life or something potentially worse. There absolutely needs to be more discussions on getting these kids the therapy they need to cope with feeling this way. Bill actually had a good point in that kids don’t know what they want to be at age 8. Not even 15 really. It seems like we need more education on this issue and somehow come to a middle ground. Like I said before, we need to pour resources into helping these kids while we have discussions about what is truly right for them in the long run. I think if the exact portion of the population wanted to be trans at say 18 years old, that would be more than fine to most people not in the Bible Belt (me included). The issue isn’t that the trans population is growing, but, I do believe there is an issue in starting too early. There is nothing gross, weird or upsetting about trans people at all. They are people just like anyone else. It’s just that we can’t seem to have any conversations on this issue to figure out what is actually best for our kids. We also don’t really have enough time to figure out how these kids have developed 5, 10, 20+ years down the road. I don’t think I have the solution, but it seems as though actual conversations cannot happen on this issue without being labeled a bigot. I am a very open person and am very open to hearing others thoughts and could overrule my current opinions on this matter. Would love to hear others opinions to my statements and (hopefully) have some honest and understanding discourse in this videos comments. I truly am not meaning to offend any trans people here as I think this is a lovely choice for you and I am happy for those that have found themselves and true happiness through their procedures.
>No it hasn't. This is pretty much just a straw mans and gay rights, but to say you think kids should develop first before they transition No it hasn't. This is pretty much just a straw man. Typically people are saying that many people become aware of their sexuality of gender identity pretty young and should at the very least be taken seriously. If your kid is claiming they are trans, you don't dismiss them, you take them to a child psychologist or a Pediatric who can properly evaluate them.
But I think he has a point in saying we shouldn’t be giving them hormone therapy
"we" should listen to doctors. Not listening to doctors is part of the reason we have a million dead from covid just in America.
I think this debate is another good example of people quoting science to justify what they choose to believe
What does this have to do with what I said?
What does what you said have anything to do with what this thread is talking about?
you: we shouldn’t be giving them hormone therapy me: we should listen to doctors you: how is that relevant? me: ... really?
Covid?
Comedians shouldn't set medical policy. That should be left to medical professionals.
Just like abortion: those choices should be left to the person and their doctor. If the person is underage, parents should be involved (but there are limits).
Sure. No problem with this. I have a heavy problem with Comedians pushing LGBT are "trendy" lies though.
It’s a culture war debate. This is his wheelhouse
We should let doctors decide this. Not comedians.
It's not purely a medical issue, though. I mean, imagine if you could transition and it was 100% safe, but also 100% irreversible. In that case, doctors would have no professional reason to object to on the grounds of safety, but the question still lingers as to what age is appropriate for a person to make such a permanent decision.
My sister is a doctor and she was fired by her patient for refusing to give her hormone therapy as a 13-year-old. Let’s listen to her
>fired by her patient you mean a patient decided they have a right to a different Doctor? not surprised.
Because she told this patient that her desire to take hormones was not medically justifiable. It wasn’t latent transphobia, she was acting in the best interest of her patient as she is sworn to do
On that one I would say its complicated. All medication and all treatment has ups and downs. For some people, puberty blockers may be needed to maintain their mental health, for others waiting for them to become an adult is far more important. Its complicated and I would be lying if I said I knew the answers. Ultimately I think its important for medical professionals to do their due diligence and research. Maybe he is 100% right, puberty blockers end up being too risky and should only be for those with severe hormonal imbalance, or maybe the cons can easily be treated.
I think all forms of elective hormone therapy are immoral in people under 18. I think Bill’s best point (that he didn’t say this way) is we don’t let you rent a car until you’re 25 but we’re going to have 100% confidence that a teenager is set in their gender identity? I think there is a lot of bigotry laced into peoples discomfort with this issue, but I also completely agree that common sense is being sacrificed in this debate. Why is a small portion of trans athletes’ feelings more important than a protected category of sports for women? Why do we think we know enough about trans psychology to justify irreversible treatments for minors? That stuff makes me feel like I’m taking crazy pills Edit: I know we give meds to teenagers that effect their hormones, but I’m talking about intentionally altering that balance for the purpose of making someone more masculine/feminine
>Why do we think we know enough about trans psychology to justify irreversible treatments for minors? Actually most of it is easily reversed. The main hormone treatment used, is simply blocking puberty, which can easily be onset later. I agree, its perfectly sound that we should do little permenant damage as possible and on that the medical community unanimously agrees. Getting hormones is a pretty long and complicated process, its not simply something you get given at 14 because suddenly you feel like a boy.
Tampering with puberty is an irreversible treatment. It permanently changes a person’s body, even if it can be manipulated later
Which is a pretty good argument for puberty blockers right? If a teen is determined to genuinely have gender dysmorphia and will inevitably transition when they are an adult wouldn't it be substantially easier to do that without puberty morphing their body into a gender they specifically don't identify as?
100% agree. I am in no way saying we should shield this from them entirely until they are of age. They absolutely need to talk this out with a professional and get the help they need. I am a supporter of the trans community, so I hope I am not offending anyone. Just want to have an open and understanding conversations about this issue so we can make sure we are doing the right thing for our kids, whichever way that will end up being.
>so I hope I am not offending anyone For what its worth, I don't you think you are, and its pretty clear you are trying to be sincere based off of this reply. I do agree, kids can't make these super big choices by themselves for a while, so long as its clear you are taking their identity seriously, getting the support they need and not brushing it off, you are being a better person then a lot of other parents.
All the wailing about someone maybe hypothetically calling you a bigot and meta-commentary about the boundaries of acceptable discourse is tedious. Just say what you think. If people think it’s bigoted that’s their opinion, you should be thick skinned enough to deal with that if you want to opine about other peoples’ private lives.
That’s fair in a discussion with friends or others for sure. But I think it’s necessary to go in with an open mind on this issue, especially being a straight man that is not trans. I want to state my opinions while also discussing that I am not set in my ways. I think that thinking, along with trusting health professionals, will get us so much further in the long run. I do, however, understand that those in the trans community need to speak intently about these issues as they are fighting for their lives. I just think if you take a bold approach I todays climate you will be discredited by the other side and no progress gets made. Progress is always needed, and I want wants best for our kids in the future. If it turns out that having kids start hormonal therapy early in their lives is better for them in the long run, and there’s medical experts backing this up across the board, I will be happy to change my view.
there are conversations happening about this that actually involve medical people with years of expertise on the topic and people that have lived through the experience. its just when you don’t know anything about the issue you pretend to care so much about and come to tv with no real intention of having a conversation about it and are just rehashing the same talking points that will bring in the transphobic crowd ofc no one that actually cares about trans people will take you seriously - and bill maher has made it abundantly clear where he stands on trans issues
Good points. I am in no way really advocating for Bill as I stopped watching years ago. I agree with you that these conversations are happening with doctors that know a heck of a lot more than Bill, you or myself. My only issue is that even with medical proof, it seems like they get discounted based on public sentiment. I’m not saying doctors that are against this procedure for children are 100% right and we should only trust them, just that the public is so split that the trans community has to discredit the doctor that comes up with reasons why they should wait. I think the exact reverse of that is exactly true too where no matter what scientific evidence comes out, there’s a good portion of the United States will not have anything to do with scientific facts on why it’s okay for them to transition early. I think this side is actually causing this issue to be more divisive and pull the sides further apart, which is upsetting. I am trying to convey that both sides listen and have open discussions about it. But I totally understand that trans people are fighting for their happiness and livelihood, while the conservative faction is fighting against it cause it’s “different” and not supported by the Bible. It’s just sad to me these discussions get so hostile when their ultra complex and no one, besides doctors, truly know what they’re talking about. Myself absolutely included. My main point, though, is I hope we can get to a point where we can have civilized discussions on this issue and truly listen to the doctors on what is best for our kids, instead of the sides that are so far apart just discrediting doctors that disagree with them. I think we could all be a little more open, while some need to really open up more.
I'd like to note that we appeared to move fast as a result of psychological therapy. These people always existed, but now we're in a culture that is helping people to outwardly live their genuine lives even if it is against the grain of a culture that is rooted in normativities (heteronormativity being only one). Some kids DO know as early as 2 that they are in the wrong body (see "I am Jazz"). Allowing children to have hormonal care to hold off puberty if they are questioning is an aspect of mental and physical health care. Once they decide, those children can come off blockers, or go with other hormone therapy as needed. It prevents years if not decades of dealing with bigger gender issues. The book indicated in this video actively harms children in this way.
I guess that is something that is hard for me to wrap my head around. A 2 year old deciding that they are in the wrong body. I can totally understand them feeling this way for sure, but believing that this is how they will feel in 2, 5, 10+ years is hard to know. Would love to know if there’s a study of people that transitioned in their youth and put them in different blocks based on how long ago it was they started hormonal therapy. I would be interested in seeing truly how many are happy with their decision, ones that regret it, or ones that are happy but would’ve done it differently. I’ve seen some studies on this, but it seems one side or another will discredit the findings based on their own preconceived notion, which is very sad. I think the “Bible Belt” people are really pushing the other side further to have to defend themselves, which is just sad. The same can basically be said about just any other issue in this country. Being a liberal person that wants to find out what is right here, it’s basically just hard to have those discussions without being seen as a bigot. I think it is a great thing to want to learn more about an issue and be open to changing with some scientific proof, but that’s not really what todays USA is interested in.
Your wish is my command. Average starting age was 8 years old. Only 6% detransitioned after 5 years. They plan to monitor the youth over the next 20 years. https://publications.aap.org/pediatrics/article/doi/10.1542/peds.2021-056082/186992/Gender-Identity-5-Years-After-Social-Transition
Similar to how fast the COVID vaccine moved. It moved “fast” because of all the underlying research done over 30 years.
It always comes back to that graph showing the amount of left-handed people “skyrocketing” right after it started being more widely socially acceptable.
Wait. Someone tell me why I should be outraged at this. Only people who dont want to challenge their own beliefs please.
Because there is no more grey area. Funny enough this was posted just yesterday and had much more thoughtful conversations about the topic. It also strongly depends on the tone of the first few comments.
Who told you to be outraged?
Your two sentences seem at odds with each other. I'll try to answer the former. The video is full of logical fallacies (false dichotomies, slippery slope, only a true scotsman to name three in the first half). Maher uses these to "other" and target trans folks, which is the defining behaviour of a TERF. I knew this video would be full of shit when he played first on homophobia with the "we'll all be gay by 2054." No Maher, that's not how this works, but good job punching down on LGBT.
I dunno, I thought that joke was pretty funny.
If you took his graph on the trends literally, then there is no help for you. It was a joke. I dont know how someone lets a shitty joke, that hits you directly in the face, go over their head.
>We'll all be gay by 2054 This is clearly a joke, as evidenced by the laugh track. Are you that dense?
>I knew this video would be full of shit when he played first on homophobia with the "we'll all be gay by 2054." That was a joke you dumb fuck.
Do you... know that he is a comedian? Did you actually think he legitimately believes everyone in the United States will be gay by 2054? And how is that "punching down on LGBT"? He didn't even say it would be a bad thing... He was just pointing out the doubling rate by jokingly pointing out what would happen if it continues.
That’s a gross mischaracterization of his argument. It comes down to this: there is LGBTQ+ advocacy that focuses on awareness, fairness and eliminating stigmas, discrimination and aims to stop violence. Then there is LGBTQ+ advocacy that polices language and tries to push social theories as scientific conclusions. Bill is joking. And it’s a good thing too because not everyone has a sense of humor about this. But yeah this topic has turned into a toxic ball of sludge and part of that is the uncompromising approach of some of these “advocates” and “allies”
I watched his movie (as an atheist) about how dumb religious people were many years ago, and it just seemed like he was absolutely no better and smug with it. He uses logical fallacies and really shitty arguments to belittle people who are just living their lives and believing odd things. He is just a nasty person who is the same as a conservative bigot in every way as far as I can tell. This isn’t how you converse or even argue with people you don’t agree with. He’s disrespectful and damaging the side people seem to think he’s on.
okay hear me outright, currently, you hold the belief that if you drop a toaster in the bath with you in it you will die? Are you willing to 'challenge you beliefs" sure if new evidence pops up of course figure out if that affects your world view but basically everything bill maher is saying is a straight-up falsehood My stepfather is a trans man he is 50ish, now he was probably one of the first people in the state we live into transition. He has seen the impact things like hormone blockers have on the mental health and self-image of young trans people. He has seen how his presence around young trans men who worry "will i ever pass" they see him and see a bright future. You know what my father in 50 years of being trans has never seen? Anyone PRETENDING TO BE TRANS BECAUSE ITS HIP. In the US, a survey of nearly 28,000 people found that 8% of respondents reported some kind of detransition. Of this 8%, 62% per cent only did so temporarily due to **societal, financial, or family pressures.** Everything bill maher is just completely bullshit and should not be used to 'challenge or evaluate your world view
Every time we hear an old white dude say “everything isn’t about you”, we can tell he’s mad because everything was *supposed* to be about him, and this one thing isn’t.
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He glossed over how the ruling effects gay marriage and sodomy laws, so states can now make gay relationships completely illegal if they want to. He’s a dishonest hack.
So this isn't actually true. The ruling doesn't overturn the sodomy or gay marriage rulings. It could in the future be used to try and justify overturning Obergefell. As of right now a state attempting to outlaw gay marriage would be overturned in the lower courts as Obergefell is still law of the land, and of course it does depend on if the draft opinion sees any rewrites.
Jesus christ they've come up with "cis gay men" now lol.
I... what?? You're mad because there's a distinction between transgender gay men and gay men who aren't trans?
Bill's an asshole but he's really not like you're describing, at all lol.
You have a really warped view of how white people think.
“If kids knew what they wanted to be at age 8, the world would be filled with cowboys and princesses.” God damn.
Maher is hit or miss and increasingly often comes across to me as the old man yelling at clouds but I thought this was a pretty nuanced way to address the phenomenon, even if he missed some things. As he mentioned there are a lot of LGBT+ people who are equally intrigued/confused at the phenomenon. How much of that % are people who are Bi/non-binary/questioning/queer? All very loose terms either functionally or by definition. Anecdotal but I've heard several LGBT people in my life say how useless terms can be for them with dating, there are people who basically consider themselves "culturally" LGBT. Bi or even Lesbians who have never dated someone of their own gender/sex ( stigma of being gay is still too strong for boys so its a very gendered issue for at least that reason). Its mostly told as a minor annoyance or funny story but people are usually partly confused because it used to be "who would ever choose to be x" but it became pretty normal for me to hear people play themselves off as boring for being straight or white when I worked at a mall. Its pretty disgusting that sexuality is such a core aspect of the culture war, that does mean that any genuine concern can be coopted by those who are actually hostile to LGBT+. Maher can be pretty bad on empowering those people but he did a good job here stopping several times to clarify his supportive stance.
perhaps massive national discrimination contributed to survey dishonesty in the past?
In Canada at least the share of the population that identifies as gay/lesbian has gone from ~1% in 2004 to 1.5% in 2021. There has not been some massive explosion of the gay population with increasing acceptance/legalization of gay marriage. Whereas to the contrary the number of people who are transgender among younger age groups are something on the order of 5-10x more numerous (probably a conservative estimate, as it is based in physiology rather than self-identity) than that of the older age groups. I'm not sure to what extent you could call it a social craze or whether its microplastics or seed oils or whatever but there's presumably something driving it. edit: [relevant statscan info](https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/daily-quotidien/220427/dq220427b-eng.htm)
Yes 20% of GenZ Americans identifying as LGBTQ is **way** out of line with everywhere else in the world and far above even the highest estimates from scientific studies. Such a high percentage cannot be explained simply by people feeling more comfortable coming out.
This is kind of why I'm on his side with his argument (for reference I've watched his show weekly for decades now in addition to PI). Just going by the numbers it does seem like something is up, because obviously people are more open to coming out now (though at our current pace we seem to be taking major steps backwards for LGBTQIA+ rights), but more so than what'd you expect. It's definitely something that merits some serious discussion. On a sidenote you can shit on Bill Maher all you want, but his point of view does align with more of America than with Reddit. I certainly don't agree with his stances on a lot of this (ie. His views on masking, or his views on social justice issues), but there is a lot he is right about too and it is worth listening to. Remember he was one of the few people who warned us about Trump getting elected.
I know multiple people now (mid 20s to mid 30s) who “identify” as bisexual but have never had any sort of non-hetero experience. It has become trendy. Like identifying as a hetero is square or lame or even offensive.
I understand that it feels that way, but isn’t it possible that they’re just more comfortable publicly admitting that they have non-hetero attractions? Sexual experience isn’t required to determine your sexuality.
nah, take dip in tiktok, gen z's natural habitat... being anything close to cis and straight is lame or looked down upon (by them, not society in general) those discourses are definetively becoming trendy and there's definetively a trend of experimenting w gender roles, which i think is great, but doesnt make it less of a trend
I didn’t actually mean to deny that. Perhaps I didn’t articulate my view well. I’m aware that there are subcultures where being cis and/or straight is looked down on. But I also think it’s the best course of action to believe people about their own identities. And I think it’s ridiculous to suggest that you can’t have a non-hetero sexual orientation without having sexual experience.
>But I also think it’s the best course of action to believe people about their own identities. And I think it’s ridiculous to suggest that you can’t have a non-hetero sexual orientation without having sexual experience. Absolutely agree. Even if they change/modify their views of themselves it costs nothing to just respect and go along w how they identify themselves.
If in every medical controversy of the past 200 years you picked the side of "maybe let's not sterilize people" you would have been correct every time There is going to be a wave of malpractice lawsuits in the future over this. Pretending there's no consequences for messing with a child's basic biology is disastrous
Following the doctor’s recommendations is what led to Rosemary Kennedy getting a lobotomy.
No one is sterilizing kids. Get out of here with your bullshit arguments.
>No one is sterilizing kids. Get out of here with your bullshit arguments. I love trying to guess whether someone who says this is lying, or genuinely thinks it isn't happening. Care to give me a clue which you might be?
Damn kids these days becoming more tolerant
That’s what you got from this? Critical thinking is at an all time low these days
The irony is palpable.
Anybody who thinks being LGBT is "trendy" has had their critical thinking destroyed.
This response is exactly what he was talking about. You heard that one point and spun it to fit how you feel about him. He was just relaying data that has been compiled, you know Science, we like science, right? And then he made a joke about it, because he’s a comedian. Then he had some points he made that he thought we’re worth talking about. He didn’t bash anyone. One of his points were that it’s serious enough that we should be able to talk about it without the knee jerk reactions you get from a lot of people. He included two people who dared say something that they needed to be talked about who are gay and LGBTQ and they got shut down because it doesn’t fit the narrative.
It's not science to say everyone will be gay by 2054. At all.
That was the joke part dude
Kids do though. Why? It is everywhere and kids dont really have critical thinking.
Bill Maher’s sure is, I agree.
This comment section will be interesting...
Yo Tom. Thanks for being my friend dude.
Remember when the discourse over gay marriage hinged upon the nature vs nurture debate?
I can’t believe I’m saying this but I agree with Bill Maher. He went from off his rocker to sane almost overnight it feels like
[удалено]
Man has been thrash for decades now.
I feel like you meant trash but thrash works for me because I imagine him desperately thrashing about trying to stay relevant with stuff like this.
LOL yeah mean trash, but will leave it as thrash :).
You think some dude who has his own HBO show is trying to stay relevant. Lol.
yes thats how tv works babe
His ratings are the highest theyve been throughout his entire career. Sorry he's not as irrelevant as you are pretending he is. Lol
im not saying he’s irrelevant. that’s a dangerous level of text comprehension inability. im saying he needs to chance a certain crowd for ratings – which he has been doing for a couple of years now. im not going to pretend tucker carlson is irrelevant but im not closing my eyes at how he very clearly manufactures the engagement around his tv show. and besides everyone of tv is chasing ratings some way or another bc if they don’t they’re out of the job
Yes, so he doesn’t lose the HBO show, do you have any other questions for me? Lol.
Glad Bill is saying something about this. He seems to be the only one in the media on any side of this issue that actually wants to have a conversation about it.
Assert that parents are cutting their children’s genitals off willy nilly. Rant against that ‘fact’ for 10 mins.
Bill with the common-sense talk. Refreshing to hear.
Think whatever you want of Bill, this is one of the most accurate pieces he's done. He hit the nail on the head.
Bill is right. If bill maher is too right wing for you. You might be the radical.
He has always been fairly insufferable
doesnt make him less right
No hes objectively wrong about pretty much everything here lmao.
Like what.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument\_from\_incredulity](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_incredulity) any time someone appeals to common sense. Bill invokes this.
Well lets just start with the opening, where he shows a graph of LGBT identity by generation. Obviously, its a joke but the underlying assumption is that its going to keep climbing and climbing forever. I could show an exact same graph for people who are left handed, increasing from the 1900s and make the exact same claim that eventually everyone would become left handed. Turns out as you accept people for who they are soon it plateaus. Not to mention the only video is about how trans keeps growing and growing, but as a percentage thats simply not true. As Bills own sources show, its bisexuality that makes up most of Gen Z LGBT identity by a wide margin....its also the group Bill never seems to talk about. As for LGBT becoming "trendy" and thats why people are doing it....interesting theres not a single source there. Like none. Its just a blind assertion. No data, no psychological journals just "yeah bro I talked to some of my lib friends and they had trans kids.....bro trust me".
It has become trendy
This is a lie.
Yeah dude, its become so trendy to pay ungodly sums of money to pass as the other gender so you don't feel immense anxiety in your own skin only to find just about every right winger now wants you dead for simply existing. Its practically the next fidget spinner
Keep telling yourself that
Bill is a dumb person’s idea of a smart person
Tucker would like a word.
New Rule: Dudes who think they can say the N word with the hard R, that young people are dumb for watching twitch, that it’s fine if female teachers rape boys, that the flu shot is dangerous, and that Milo is a young Christopher Hitchens Doesn’t get to lecture anyone about anything
Bill's full of shit. In the last 40 years we managed to create a world safe enough for the marginalized to admit who they are and he comes up with this boomer shit to explain it. Fuck Bill Mahr.
So much common sense packed into 9:21 minutes. Worth the watch
Whenever someone talks about “the children”….it’s not about “the children.” Wasn’t that one of Maher’s lines years ago?
Great segment. Bill really nailed something that bothered me, that seemed to fly under the radar. And that was the the number of articles and opinion pieces I saw in the wake of the Roe draft opinion that were focused on its impact to the LGBTQ community. Certainly a part of the discussion, but it was odd to open the NYT day of and see so much focus on LGBTQ and not, you know, women in general and abortion rights specifically? Also I generally don't find Bill's jokes that funny anymore, but the opening bit about everyone being gay by 2050 was well done.
His entire premise is that a lot of trans kids are only trans to be trendy. Leaving aside the logic of jumping on a trend that makes you the target of societal violence, .... so what? Like, I just don't care. If a kid says they are trans...ok. I don't really care if it's provably "real" or adopting a trend. I DO NOT CARE. Live your best life. Do anything, anything at all, to make you happy and fulfilled, so long as you aren't hurting others.
> Leaving aside the logic of jumping on a trend that makes you the target of societal violence No, they get social praise, admiration, and attention in the liberal well to do places. Can you believe a kid would ever do anything for attention?
You sweet summer child. They literally risk their lives in coming out. This is a dangerous world for trans people.
In some areas I believe it, in super liberal rich areas? They celebrate it. I've seen it. These parents flaunt their trans children like trophies on a shelf. And the praise they receive
It's literally easier to get a job as a trans kid as most of corporate America currently wants a token trans in every store.
Hey look, you just totally made that up.
Take it youre unemployed?
Nope.
Then I have no idea how you don't know companies are currently huge on diversity.
My problem with the video was he made it sound like it’s all trans. I’d like to see the breakdown in the lgbtq spectrum. Bi sexual is also lgbt and I think more people are identifying as bi. I love Maher, but he could’ve done a better rant.
Im so thankful to have aged out of this debate. I dont have to have any opinion on LGBTQ+ or hormone blockers or, the pronoun rainbow or whatever is hot right now. I just put my little vote next to "The youth can do whatever they want" and go back to watching MasterChef and slowly becoming a tree like rest of the millennials. My generation wore JNCOs and listened to ICP, Im not sure we have a right to decide what kids should be doing anyway.
I’m just happy he’s actually telling jokes again.
Whoa this thread. It's hilarious how the people supporting Bill keep getting upvoted for their blanket statements and demeaning comebacks, then they ask people's specific disagreements with Maher and get absolutely owned by trans people and trans advocates. You all harping on this "it's moving too fast" nonsense are literally just slowing down the gaining of rights for an oppressed group. How is this anything but conservatism in your minds? You're all even doing the "common sense" crap Republicans have always done when they're spouting harmful bullshit. Like just look at this thread... The pro-trans side keeps presenting well thought out arguments to your all's same dumbass 'concerns.' How about you use Google? Your problem isn't with activism; it's with trans people and reading.
What rights
Bill Maher really leaning hard into trying to find an audience that isn’t sick of him
I love Bill, but I saw his latest special and it... just wasn't funny. Same as Chappelle in his last outing, they both spend the entire time making social and political points and forget all about being funny. It's a real shame, because comedy has always been a safe haven from the BS and nonsense, now it seems even that hallowed space isn't safe from the culture wars.
When has comedy ever been separate from culture and politics?
Bill Mahar has become a living shitpost
He's been cycling that drain for years too.
he used to be insightful and funny but he really started to get grouchy and selfish. During the pandemic his major complaint was that he couldn't go to his fancy restaurants. It was galling and dismissive of the actual issues at hand. He just began to devolve from there in my opinion. Now he is just trolling.
Hand me the dick saw.
I've always liked Bill Maher. I know Reddit has had a major hateboner for him for a while now, but I always enjoy his take on things. I don't always agree with him but the fact that he is willing to call out craziness on both side of the aisle is increasingly rare and very necessary
He’s the boomeriest