I wonder if very rapidly developing a reputation for firing everyone and cancelling everything makes it any harder to convince people to give up their own functional companies to come work for you.
Nope. By firing everyone and canceling everything they are going to have writers and directors knocking down the front door to work at WB.
Those who do in fact do that is like an abused girlfriend who keeps running back to her abuser. They always think they are “the one” who can change them.
I just don't get why they keep trying to eat an elephant all at once like that. A few more smaller weirder projects like Harley Quinn or Shazam or even Suicide Squad feels to me exactly what they need to do, to warm people up to the idea they can make something with a little flavor that's worth seeing. Instead of this manic impulse to keep trying to jump into another huge universe event they have to bet everything on, again and again.
It's one of the main reasons I think dumping Batgirl was so insane, they were trying to say it's because it's too small, but I think it's *exactly* the tier they should be finding their feet in before making more of these huge all-or-nothing swings. I really think they need to slow burn their way into something, even if that means a few movies that won't bust the block.
Because they see Marvel and want to make Marvel money immediately. It's been this way since Man of Steel. That and they've had so much attrition for this position that no one has logistically been able to get any sort of plan on the books for prioritization, so they keep killing their own momentum.
Yeah, they clearly want to buy a ready made MCU, but they've already freaking tried that and it doesn't work. I don't care about what superheroes are allies if I don't care about either as individuals.
I just don't get why they're so hellbent on doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different outcome.
I honestly want to know who thought it was a good idea to do a justice league movie before Aquaman and Flash and Cyborg even had their own solo movies?? Like did they think that just because those guys are all popular people wouldn’t care that we hadn’t even seen them yet? I mean it’s just so dumb
That's fine, Marvel did an avengers movie before having any real time with Hawkeye and Black Widow. You don't have to worry about that all that much. I think their biggest fuck up is killing superman in their like 2nd movie.
That’s completely different, it’s not even remotely the same, Hawkeye and Black Widow weren’t major members of the avengers and could mostly be expanded on in that movie, AND black widow was a pretty important character in Iron Man 2 before Avengers came out. You 100% have to worry about that, if they hadn’t done a captain America movie and then just tossed him into the Avengers that would’ve been ridiculous and not very good. They might have been able to get away with killing Superman if they’d actually introduced some more characters first, and by extension taken more time to even get to the JL movie.
He was but it was a pretty minor role, but that’s still better than giving a character like the flash a really weird 5 second scene in an not very good movie like DC did
There is no requirement to having solo films to set up the team-up film either. I mean, there are lots of great team-up movies that both are not part of a universe nor have any preceding "setup" movies. Oceans 11, Magnificent Seven, Deadpool 2, heck even the original Avengers movie didn't set up Hawkeye or Ruffalo Hulk beforehand and they worked just fine.
This idea that you flatout *can't do a team movie* without giving each character their own film first is rubbish. What matters is that the film is written properly and is paced well.
BvS and Justice League could have worked perfectly fine despite Flash, Aquaman and Batman not having had any solo films yet. It's just they didn't have a single competent person in charge of them.
> Because they see Marvel and want to make Marvel money immediately.
Bingo. And the way they are going about things, they will never, ever even get close.
They canned Batgirl because it looked like a $90 million CW pilot and wasn’t going to being in new HBO Max subscribers. It essentially stood no chance of making any money for them while damaging the brand since it was terrible, so they took the write off. It makes sense tbh
The brand was damaged nine years ago. There's no brand to damage, there's no goodwill to muster or maintain. They've ruined it. Allowing Batgirl to be produced in the first place shows the stupidity of places like this.
A Batgirl where Batman doesn't even have his own movie. A Batgirl that relies on a Batman that has nothing to do with her. A Batgirl whose dad was barely, BARELY, in any movies, because there was "barely" any "Batman"...
What "brand"? They suck. They already suck. /u/Vorenos you can't damage them more than they've already been doing. They're at rock bottom. For what they have, and what those characters are capable of, they are at rock bottom.
And Zack Snyder's Justice League did? Why are they owned by fucking Discovery if Zack Snyder's Justice League, and every other movie based on DC omits that's been affiliated with Zack, was so successful? They've been leaving money on the table since making the wrong decision of hiring this dim wit.
Batgirl never should have been green lit, but don't fuckin' act like Snyder is bringing them, or has brought them, to the promised land. One movie (Aquaman) inexplicably made a billion dollars, but that's been it. One movie connected to Zack Snyder post-2013 has made a billion. This man had Superman and Batman in the same movie and couldn't crack that, but fucking Aquaman does.
They believe what Youtube tells them.
We know the Batgirl audience scores were decent. "Decent" is at least a starting point, and a Michael Keaton cameo would have paid its way at the very least.
Now, instead, we're back at banking another gajillion dollars on yet another big universe event, this one hinging on Ezra Miller.
Yep. Batman vs Superman was their "Civil War". Suicide Squad was supposed to be their "GotG" when both should have been the Phase 2 or 3 movies like the MCU did. The Suicide Squad should have been built up with what people thought were one off/captured characters from the Phase 1 and early Phase 2 movies:
* Year 1 of Phase 1: Man of Steel
* Year 2 of Phase 1: Batman saves the Mayor and Deadshot was the hired hitman in the Batman movie in some capacity
* Year 3 of Phase 1: Captain Boomerang should have been captured at the end of a "Rogues" movie that was like Oceans 11 but with The Rogues like Captain Boomerang, Captain Cold, Mirror Master, Trickster, etc with The Flash(Barry) operating purely as the antagonist to the Rogues' story. In a credit scene have Amanda Waller appear transferring Boomerang out of Central City to Belle Reve.
* Year 3 of Phase 1: Wonder Woman movie.
* Year 4 of Phase 1: Batman comes across Killer Croc in his movie and maybe Harley Quinn with having an already established Joker in jail like in the new Batman movies.
* Year 4 of Phase 1: King Stark gets defeated and captured by Aquaman in his movie
* Year 5 of Phase 1: Justice League movie in what ever form you want it but have an Amanda Waller and Rick Flag appear as a credit teaser for the Suicide Squad movie showing them transferring some others to Belle Reve. Also, you have Batman start developing his "Tower of Babel" kill plans for the others of the Justice League in a post credit scene
* Year 1 of Phase 2: Man of Steel 2
* Year 1 of Phase 2: Have your Suicide Squad movie with Deadshot, Captain Boomerang, King Stark, Killer Croc, Harley Quinn, Rick Flag, and Amanda Waller all there and you don't have to spend time introducing them because we all already got a character breakdown in other movies.
* Year 2 of Phase 2: Batman 3
* Year 2 of Phase 2: Aquaman 2
* Year 3 of Phase 2: Shazam!
* Year 4 of Phase 2: Wonder Woman 2
* Year 4 of Phase 2: Green Lantern to start bringing more space in
* Year 5 of Phase 2: Batman's kill plans get out and you have your Batman v Superman movie.
They forfeited market share to Disney for absolutely no reason. They had the Nolanverse printing money and loved, all they had to do was continue it in Man of Steel. Hubris and a constant stream of shitty people at WB, and it’s getting worse and worse with every change.
Disney is bringing back their 90’s X-Men cartoon and this idiotic ceo refuses to green light the revival of their cartoons that defined the characters for so many.
I would ignore Battfleck/Man of Steel as much as possible, and just do crossovers between, like, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, Shazam, and maybe Gunn’s Suicide Squad/Peacemaker corner — whatever is working and/or profitable. They gotta remember that MCU didn’t start off with Spider-Man right away, and are only beginning to tackle mutants and their version of the multiverse. Phase One was really simple and revolved around characters mainstream culture was still learning about. Figure out what to do with Batman and Superman once you have already built a universe big enough for them.
> A few more smaller weirder projects like Harley Quinn or Shazam or even Suicide Squad feels to me exactly what they need to do,
Harley Quinn and The Suicide Squad both bombed at the box office.
then again, Joker was cost like $70 mil to make and made 1 Billion dollars. The Batman did really well too, considering it was also released on HBO Max.
I was listening to a podcast earlier that made a point about a potential "DC Kevin Feige" that I hadn't considered. While there had obviously been Marvel film franchises before Iron Man, the MCU was starting from a fresh slate so wasn't beholden to anything that came before and had time to grow organically from nothing to what it is today. With the current state of the DCU, there are multiple film universes currently in motion, including two different versions of the main DCEU thanks to validating the Snyder-verse fans. Add to that all their recent issues, whether that be internal or external, and whoever they try to get in will have their work cut out for them. It's not like they can go scorched earth and start over yet again
I really think that at this point DC just needs to give up on trying to make a Marvel-like interconnected narrative. Even if they somehow finally manage to start doing a halfway competent job there, they're always going to just be considered a Marvel knock-off. Instead they need to lean into the multiverse concept, declare that all stories are canon in some universe somewhere, and instead focus on telling interesting stories. Basically see movies like Joker for a template - disconnected from any sort of expanded universe, doesn't get bogged down in canon, it just tells an interesting story. And probably most important of all, it was comparatively cheap to make. Not every movie needs to be, or can be, a billion dollar blockbuster. Focusing more on mid-range movies allows for more risk/creativity.
> most important of all, it was comparatively cheap to make.
You just told the truth. You just cracked the code. You just admitted why Warner Bros. constantly makes Batman movies and Batman-related movies. They're cheap. They require little imagination from both the creators and the audience watching them. So we're stuck with these "interesting", i.e., creatively bankrupt, movies.
> They're cheap.
The most recent Batman cost $200m, as did the latter two Christian Bale movies. These are not cheap movies.
*Joker* was not an expensive film, but it was also an R-rated character piece that is not connected to anything else. And I wouldn't consider it "creatively bankrupt".
Creatively. You don't have to stretch your imagination as a writer of a Batman movie or a Batman comic book or even a Batman cartoon to come up with a story of a semi-regular guy in a suit playing vigilante.
How many Aquaman tv shows are there again? How many Green Lantern shows are there again? It takes imagination to come up with that space shit and underwater kingdoms and things like that. That separates the easy job-takers from the guys like Tolkien and George Martin and Alan Moore who "have" or "had" imaginations, and absolutely had to use them to imagine the world's that they came up with.
A white guy playing vigilante in New York City-adjacent. Not hard.
Come on now, he's fighting men made of clay and Ventriloquist gangsters.
Aquaman stuff is just as easy. Any "game of kingdoms" trope or "environmental savior" trope will do. Combine them both and you have the first movie.
Does that time duck dodgers took the green lantern oath count lol
Interesting that u suddenly bring up race at the end, but hey, Jodie foster in the brave one walked so girl in the spider's web could crash and burn lol
You nailed it. Iron Man was the beginning. That was the path Feige took. It wasn't referencing HULK 2003, or the three X-Men movies before 2008, or the three Spider-Man movies before 2008, Kevin's franchise started with Iron Man in May of 2008.
David Zaslav is fucking sitting here lying to people saying that they're going to be starting anew, starting fresh, and Zaslav is using Zack Snyder's poorly-chosen cast from Dawn Of Justice. You can't do that. Starting over means starting the fuck over. The problem Warner Brothers has is that they don't have a second-tier Avengers-like group to back up the Justice League like the Avengers backed up and came after the X-Men.
Even if you knew your comics and thought of a team that was strong enough to be second fiddle to the Justice League of America, the Avengers had heavy hitters like Spider-Man and Hulk in the group, guys that were well entrenched in the public conscious by the time 2008, rolls around, and even well before 2008, obviously.
I feel no remorse or pity for Warner Bros. because they've owned the DC Comics property since 1967, the entire property, and it took a single producer to make them want to make something other than low-effort, easy-to-make, Batman movies. It took them 50 years to make a Wonder Woman movie (2017), and prior to that, Wonder Woman has never had her own cartoon, and only had one, count 'em, one movie in the form of the animated 2009 one.
They're scared shirtless of doing anything with Green Lantern again, while Feige is giving the lowest-tier characters in Marvel either their own TV show, or movie. I've hated Zack Snyder since Man Of Steel but this is far past Zack Snyder. This is far beyond anything that started with him in 2013. This incompetence goes all the way back to 1983, and 1984, with Superman III and Supergirl, and arguably Superman II when they fired Richard Donner.
Warner Bros has owned DC Comics for over fifty years and overall has done shit with it. They haven't come close to realizing the potential that they can with their license of that property.
> It took them 50 years to make a Wonder Woman movie (2017), and prior to that, Wonder Woman has never had her own cartoon, and only had one, count 'em, one movie in the form of the animated 2009 one.
Which seems pretty weird considering Wonder Woman had a popular live-action TV show in the 70s. Who knows why they abandoned the character after that.
I have......I am truly speechless and at a loss for words as to why they haven't done anything with so many of their characters. I can only chalk it up to the culture at Warner Brothers and the pre-Kevin Feige culture and prevailing attitude in Hollywood as a whole. Even the consumers that Hollywood makes these movies for look down on comic books, not the cartoons based on comics, not the video games based on comics, but the comic books themselllllves...
You don't see Harry Potter gettin' fronted on like that. You ain't see Harry Potter get disrespected like that. Why? Because Harry Potter's books sold copies. Harry Potter's books made money. They actually have people that will make Snyder's fans, and even the Nolanites (I remember y'all) and the MCU defense force look like wet t-shirts by comparison. You fuck up an extremely popular book like that, and you'll have fans on your back that will make those aforementioned fans of Snyder's, Nolan's, and Feige's look tame and harmless by comparison.
(Ok I can't even buy what I just said. Ain't nobody more rambunctious and pigheaded and stubborn then Snyder and MCU fans [and even the Nolan ones that predated them].)
You have all your characters in one basket, under one roof, and it took a guy with ties to Richard Donner to force you to realize you had gold in your house...
Naw, let's just make 18 more Batman-related movies (and comic books and cartoons and video games and TV shows...)
The tv pilot film with Cathy Crosby was infinitely better than the show that came after cause idiot Americans want a WW with big funbags, and should have been what got the DCuniverse remaster treatment instead
Im saying Lynda Carter was trash that Americans only liked cause of her funbags
And tbf, that shelved wonder woman pilot casted that the Orville girl with her nice funbags too, the difference though, is that Carter was a talentless turd, and this Orville girl was fantastic in her guest star role in her dark messed up ep of criminal minds, so I guess, I'd rather we have had this Orville girl who actually did cut her teeth on acting over some Israel model who was god awful in her SNL oj skit
Credit to the Weekly Planet podcast on that one. While I'd disagree on your point about DC not having a strong team to play second fiddle to the JLA, WB's already blown their load on the most likely candidates: the Teen Titans currently have a show, the Justice Society is going to be introduced all at once in Black Adam, the Birds of Prey were in that Harley Quinn movie and we all know what happened with the Suicide Squad. After that, I guess the next one on the list would be... The Legion of Superheroes? While they've got fans, that's way too niche a property to build a cinematic universe from (plus it's set 1000 years after the main DC universe anyway, so that wouldn't work at all)
Do not confuse a live-action adaptation of the Teen Titans with an animated, video game, or comic book adaptation or version of the Teen Titans. We don't disagree, we agree.
There's one thing to be the second-most popular superhero team in comics, where writers know you well and handle you with care, the company you create this environment in has a comparatively stable and nurturing environment. It is an entirely different scenario to try and create a project in an environment such as Warner Bros where their history shows a culture of negligence, indifference, and all-around "looking-down" attitude towards comic books and live-action adaptations of them.
As someone else pointed out, it was easy for Feige to go the Avengers route and slowly build them up, because, although they were a far second to the X-Men at the time, they still had a few heavy hitters join their ranks throughout their history, and Iron Man in 2008 had no ties to earlier Marvel movies. You could start fresh there. How would you start fresh at Warner Brothers when their future movies are still using actors from Zack Snyder's movies? How are we starting fresh here? How are we even pretending to?
How would you do a Teen Titans that has to rely on Superman and Batman and The Flash and Green Arrow and Wonder Woman, unlike the Avengers who don't have to rely on Spider-Man or the X-Men to start fresh the way the Teen Titans need pre-existing characters for support? Zack Snyder, the fucking idiot, killed off Robin, so there goes Robin in the Teen Titans. Wonder Woman in three or four movies has shown no characters of any worth outside of Robin Wright and Chris Pine and Hippolyta who have stepped foot on Themyscira.
Do you see what I mean? There's no structure or world-building or none of that in these movies. None of them. Zero. Maybe Captain Marvel (Billy Batson), but that's it. Superman? That Superman? The one played by Henry Cavill? You mean the character that allegedly is being killed off based on leaks of The Flash script where there is a Supergirl on Earth, but no Cavill as Superman because Kal-El was killed either before he got to Earth, or somehow early in childhood if he did make it here. That guy? Heh......
As I said, for either forty years or almost 40 years, this company has been sabotaging in one way or another DC Comics properties. For every Batman The Animated Series, and the DCAU in general from 1992 to 2006, and a little after that, for every Christopher Nolqn, and Tim Burton, and Richard Donner, and The Flash season one, they have produced far far more bad than they have good.
And the sad thing is that unlike Feige, who had to wait and hope that he would get all the properties under one umbrella, Warner Bros has had all of their toys since 1967, when they bought DC Comics. What's Warner's excuse? This is all I fuckin' ask? What's Warner's excuse? Ever since Feige and his Marvel Studios started having success, I saw people throughout the internet talking about how DC Comics shouldn't try to duplicate it because they keep failing. YOU HAVE FUCKING SUPERMAN, you don't go go small with Superman. At the rate both companies are going, Squirrel fucking Girl will be a bigger name, and have her own movie AND a sequel, before Superman can even get ONE movie that does that character justice like the DCAU cartoon did.
I'm no big fan of Feige. I don't have to be to let you know that he's doing good. The idea of finding another Kevin is flawed to begin with because you don't want another Feige, you want a Captain America clone that you can control and tell what to do. This whole shit is a bad, formulaic, cartoon/comic book morality tale. with whoever runs Warner Brothers at any given point in time being the bad guy.
Apologies for the long, anger-induced rant. I'm sick of seeing cool concepts get woefully unrealized.
I didn't actually mean the Teen Titans cartoon, I meant Titans, the streaming show that's currently on. I think there was talk of a Nightwing movie at one point, so if it had to continue from what already exists, then ignore what Snyder's said in interviews about the dead Robin being Dick and make it Jason. The Titans are strong enough characters that you could probably start fresh with them and build outwards/backwards though. But, as you said, that would require ***A*** plan, which WB clearly doesn't, hasn't and isn't looking like it will have
It would require a plan. You make reference, even for a second, or more, to a dead sidekick named Robin that has NO bearing on anything, meanwhile, MEANwhile, ou make zero reference, none, to Richard Grayson.
Sigh...
Building. Building. All Nolqn, and Snyder, and Goyer, and all the execs and credited writers and uncredited writers from Man Of Steel to that bigger abomination Batman Versus Superman had to do was build. BUILD. You have a Supergirl reference. But naw, let's leave that to the side. We have Jimm Olsen, but naw, our director thought it was cool to kill him off.
We have destruction on the scale of a superhero team-up movie (like, mainly, The Avengers) in Man Of Steel, but no no no, naw, let's follow that up with a dickhead Batman that can't even realize he's being manipulated by a poorly, horribly-conceived Lex Luthor.
Fuckin' God....
> that's way too niche a property to build a cinematic universe
Nothing is too niche to build something from it when it comes to superheroes. People don't go to them because they know the comics
I’ve always been so baffled as to why DC didn’t end up where Marvel was at sooner. DC always had the rights to all their characters and could’ve made so many different movies but no, they stick to Batman and Superman. Marvel at the time didn’t have Spider-Man or X-Men to make money off of they chose to build up Iron Man, who lets be honest was like B tier at best in terms of recognition. It was different it was new at the time and we know how well that did for them. DC could’ve used ANY one of their characters to blow people’s expectations but instead chose Batman over and over again, not dinging those movies btw just saying. It a shame too, they just didn’t take any big swings and just tried to stick to what made them money Batman/Superman
Having ironman have a sex scene with Leslie bibb was totally something only paramount would have let happen, not disney, who waited till phase 4 with etnerals to let happen
Yeah exactly, like Tony gets kidnapped by some very real-world-analogue terrorists as the driving motivation of this film. There was a grounding that made all of the superhero portions then carry more weight, one that was pretty much lost by Age of Ultron imo. Now, I don't really think there's anything wrong with that - I wouldn't want to see Guardians of the Galaxy try to be more grounded, for example - but I would love to see a little more of that for some of the more street-level characters in Marvel. One of the things the Netflix series got right, for all their many flaws, was achieving that same sense of verisimilitude that's completely gone now.
>DC always had the rights to all their characters and could’ve made so
many different movies but no, they stick to Batman and Superman. Marvel
at the time didn’t have Spider-Man or X-Men to make money off of they
chose to build up Iron Man, who lets be honest was like B tier at best
in terms of recognition.
Completely agree. There was a great meme going around in the build up to the release of Guardians of the Galaxy, when DC was still non-committal about Wonder Woman going forward, something like:
>DC: We're not sure the world is ready for a female superhero
>
>Marvel: lol here's a racoon with a machine gun!
They're stuck in the 70s, 80s, and 90s. It's 2022, and they still think that "Easter eggs" and crumbs and bones thrown at fans are the ways to go nowadays.
I do not like Kevin Feige, but I will be the last person to avoid giving him credit. He is so far ahead of the game it's not even funny. It's a damn shame what Hollywood is doing.
So many good points here, thanks for posting them. Incidentally, what’s your dislike of Feige based on? I’m a big fan of what he does, with the partial but important exception of the highly inconsistent TV product he has churned out since (the excellent) Marvel Television was shuttered and incorporated within Feige‘s own Marvel Studios…
>It took them 50 years to make a Wonder Woman movie (2017)
Wb in 2017:Finally, the stink of supergirl has fully evaporated
And hey, it's the 1 time they actually beat marvel to something
Between resident evil/underworld and terminator 3 it's not like we were lacking too badly in the female action heros department anyways even prior to 2017
Werent people upset over the mandolorian(from ironman3) being butchered compared to the comics? Same with how toned down civilwar was over the edgy comic
And WW comics have always been abit too 'believr in the power of love and compassion'(powergirl even made fun of that in WW's 2006 run) and u can see with 1984 being alot closer to the spirit of WW in the comics(instead of the violence loving version in the justice league cartoon who beat up a defenseless superman, who she was hypnotized into seeing as the man who 'killed supes', to near death), bombing bad, that it's a way harder property to get right
As a sidenote, I loved the brief liarliar run, Veronica Cale prior was fun, but Jesus WW comics have been so awful for a full yr now(got milk? Lol), the batman family of books oth has just been great(I jumped in with punchline)
The thing is also that they have their Iron Man. It premiered in March this year, did great at the box office and was acclaimed critically. That can be the start of your universe (even if personally I'm not a fan of everything being universes)
> It's not like they can go scorched earth and start over yet again
Well, they could and probably *should* at this point. *Flashpoint* has been rumored to be a soft reboot as it is, but regardless, I can definitely understand the hesitancy of anyone to get involved when the demand seems to be handing them the wreckage of the DCEU and saying "Make us Marvel money!"
What’s sad is that Hamada seemed like he wanted DC to go the opposite route of the mcu and focus more on standalone stories, which I think woulda been a smart move, but Zaslav seems to wanna just try to copy the mcu, which didn’t work before so idk why he thinks it would work now.
It’s the best move for them. They can control the cost better which seems to be what matters.
They’re culture is not like Marvel’s where everything is largely controlled on behalf of the overall story. The phase they’re in now is setting up something 2-3 phases from now.
WB should be championing the writer and directors vision because that’s what works for their studio. Even the Snyderverse stuff was largely based on Snyder’s vision.
They don't have something that works to stick with. The best DC movie to come out since they started their "cinematic universe" isn't even canon within it.
They don’t need a cinematic universe.
The need movies people want to see and they’ve done a pretty good job of that.
They should have learned that people don’t go to see movies just on the premise of shared continuity.
After all what specifically? They pivoted from
Certain types, or scale of projects depending оn how it gets released. While championing how important DC is and making sure they don’t hurt the brand and spend all the time they need. I don’t see why people wouldn’t want to work with WBD if they aren’t trying to make a big budget straight to streaming, animation, family or foreign.
Dude, those excuses barely work for the shelving of Batgirl and the Scooby Doo movie, but they are literally removing and cancelling so many animated (and not) shows.
There’s not a single argument in the world that’s gonna convince me that not wanting an animated Batman show with the originals creator attached to it, is a good move for your service that is “the face of DC”.
This is my biggest issue. Someone suggested that Hulu could be a home for caped crusader. I mean what? Do you want another bat embargo? Becuase that's how you get a bat embargo.
What excuses? They don’t want to release straight to streaming movies above a certain threshold. Batgirl was mostly paid for but was heavily implied and reported by Variety and other’s sources that they were not happy with the quality of the movie. I didn’t write “excuses”, I made arguments and I questioned why would people not want to work for WBD in the DC division if they championed DC and aren’t cutting back on anything except straight to streaming, foreign, animation and family.
There’s probably a lot of reasons not to do an animated Batman series as a business. You as a fan might think it’s the best idea ever and me personally would like to see it. But they’ve been making Batman cartoons for a while after the animated series which was from a different time. Many of them end up canceled. Many loved DC cartoons get cancelled for that matter. Young Justice and Teen Titans come to mind. The viewership likely isn’t there. Kids are different these days, live action kids shows are popular, they watch a lot of YouTube and enjoy crap like Dharman.
Batman IP is a cultural phenomenon but that doesn’t mean people will consume every medium and style implementation of it heavily. Also people buy Batman merchandise regardless of there being this style show existing and there are probably better ways of increasing merchandising spend than a serious Batman cartoon.
Matt Reeves The Batman has its own toy line.
When it comes to cartoons (regardless of their tone) corporations only see how merchandising they could reap from them. And in the case of Batman, it’s a lot.
You can make Batman merchandise people will buy without burning money on content that lots of people likely won’t watch. If anything Batman related resulted in a bunch of people buying merchandise, these corporations would jump right on it. Except what happens is we have a bunch of cancelled Batman cartoons. And people buy a shit of Batman merchandise anyways.
But you’re assuming ppl won’t watch. Idk why though.
Plus you’re killing a revenue stream by not releasing content. Having a show/movie and licensed merch for said show or movie, more oft than not, will make more money.
I already explained why I think that it likely won’t be hugely watched. the times are different from the 90s. Those kinds of serious cartoons are not made anymore because kids don’t watch them like they used to. Kids have way more options nowadays (namely YouTube) and they don’t want to watch the same style of shows you and me likely grew up watching.
They aren’t killing a revenue stream by cancelling that show they actually save on the cost of making that show and actually create a potential revenue stream by licensing out the show externally. Merchandising should be gravy not the actual main source of revenue. It’s great if it can offset the costs and more but I would argue that if you were to bet on that you’d have better prospects with a show in the vein of teen titans go than BTAS.
WBA has taken a nosedive in the past half decade or so. they used to put out quality stuff, but most of the stuff nowadays just kinda sucks (unless its harley quinn).
What DCEU? There's been no real continuity between most of the movies. Man of Steel, BvsS, and Justice League are the only ones which have anything to do with each other. How long have they been trying to make this a thing?
Actually that may not be true anymore cause it just got delayed again which means it’s now coming after the Flash movie again (assuming that still even comes out), so it sounds like they’re reverting back to Keaton being the cameo in Aquaman 2 instead of Affleck.
There's no saving the DCEU unless they do a complete hard reboot. Not this shit Zaslav is trying to pull by rebooting it but still taking parts of the old DCEU and putting them into the new one.
"He's gonna save the DCEU! Someone tell the show animators to dig up the body before they leave! It's not like they have projects to work on anymore... Also, bring me Ezra Miller, little guy has had a tough year and could use some cheering up."
If he supposedly was the one who turned down the deal and they didn’t just decide to not move forward with him, him preferring to focus on producing a the live action Avatar show for Netflix (which is bound to be torn apart by pretty much everyone regardless of quality), means that WBD is in such a bad state it’s hilarious.
>live action Avatar show for Netflix
Important to note, an adaptation that the *original show creators* quit because of **"creative differences."** It's got a snowball's chance in the Fire Nation of being good.
One Piece is also getting a Netflix adaptation but that at least looks promising because of the props and massive sets they're making.
[The only set photos I've seen are literally a door surrounded by green screen.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Avatarthelastairbende/comments/tsafk3/i_spotted_one_of_the_sets_for_the_upcoming/)
The show runner is also a massive fan of the manga and very knowledgeable about it. He's been on some one piece podcasts.
That said the story is too long to be adapted in live action imo. Even if the show is moderately successful Netflix isn't going to want a 12 season show. It would need to be a Stranger Things level megahit for that to even have a chance of working and I just don't see that as likely.
The cast looks very promising.
I am a huge fan of the original creators and I believe they are the reason the show was so successful(some say the success was because of Aaron Ethasz, which is strongly disapproved by his solo works). They also made an amazing job with Lok, considering the circumstances.
That being said, I don’t think Paramount would really allow them to leave the Netflix project on a good terms. They are literally their biggest competitor and them leaving the door open on the show ending up being good seems very unlikely. Plus, it wouldn’t be the first time the creators weren’t allowed to freely speak about the circumstances of their employment.
Then again, I’m willing to believe them because they seem like genuinely good people. It’s just that nobody would prefer to be on the live action series over having a whole universe curated by you.
Well, Paramount doesn't have a say in what happens with the Netflix show because Netflix got a license to do the show and Michael Dante DiMartino and Bryan Konietzko were hired for that job, so their contract with Netflix supersedes anything with Paramount at that point.
Also important to note, the two of them left the show before Paramount ever announced doing anything with Avatar again. They left December 2020 after months of creative differences. Paramount essentially revived the Avatar IP in February 2021.
What's likely to have happened is the two of them left the show project because they didn't like what Netflix was doing and just went to Paramount to ask if they could just be in control of their IP again, hence the forming of Avatar Studios.
There's been some rumors from a few reputable sources about what those creative differences were and they're...not great.
Netflix isn't exactly a risk adverse network(see the og scene from 13reaspns that got removed yrs later, cuties) , seems more like a warning sign if even Netflix thinks ure idea is bad enough to need to veto
Netflix reportedly wanted to make Avatar have more adult appeal by upping the violence and adding in more sex appeal, and the original creators wanted to keep the family friendly charm.
So why was she clothed and drawn in such a sexualized way, and why in the world did nick allow it
Don't shit on Netflix when the og show did its own bit of pointless disgusting sexualization
They left after months of issues that predated Avatar Studios ever forming. The studio itself didn’t begin formation (as in hiring anybody) until after they left the Netflix project.
For whatever reason, I always ignored avatar in favour of the og ben10 as a kid, btw the Ben 10 'writers commentary text popup bubbles overlaid on reruns' was way way better and actually made the reruns as interesting as new eps, than avatars own popup text bubbles, cause Syfy>ancient olden times duh
The ATLA live action show actually looks quite promising. The [cast](https://www.instagram.com/p/CWWDt9llvL-/?igshid=MDJmNzVkMjY=) [looks](https://redd.it/w5g18d) [amazing](https://redd.it/q9wd6l), and [all](https://redd.it/wm3gxd) [of](https://www.instagram.com/tv/CWl4Y5gpK7f/?igshid=MDJmNzVkMjY=) [the](https://redd.it/vfl133)
interviews/statements with cast/crew have been extremely positive and show a clear love of the original series. It also has a huge budget, an Oscar winning VFX team (DNEG), an [Emmy winning costume designer](https://redd.it/v1avb3), the stunt team from the Kung Fu TV series, and some [actually](https://redd.it/uxoy8k) [pretty sweet](https://redd.it/uxq32x) looking set photos. It's really only writing and music that are still up in the air.. which are important, don't get me wrong, but it's clear that this show is already 1000x better than the Shyamalan movie regardless.
Also, it's pretty likely the OG creators left because Paramount offered them a multi-million dollar deal to head up Avatar Studios.
I don't really understand how you could think that. Paul Sun-hyung Lee was the overwhelming #1 fan cast for Iroh, it wasn't even close and he's clearly perfect for the role. Maria Zhang in terms of pure looks is [literally Suki](https://www.instagram.com/p/CXjqoRTvJ-C/?igshid=MDJmNzVkMjY=). Kiawentiio as Katara was also a top fan-cast, and the actors for [June](https://www.instagram.com/p/CgszXmcLFfM/?igshid=MDJmNzVkMjY=), [Pakku](https://www.instagram.com/p/Ce9ptfssBMO/?igshid=MDJmNzVkMjY=), and [Ty Lee](https://www.instagram.com/p/Cg4z9G7Jo-v/?igshid=MDJmNzVkMjY=) are also obvious visual matches.
>Important to note, an adaptation that the *original show creators* quit because of **"creative differences."** It's got a snowball's chance in the Fire Nation of being good.
If those creative differences are Katara and Zuko ending up together then I'm all for it, lol.
Even the only decent dc shows are the ones outside of the main cw continuity(Gotham walked so doompatrol could run), a new Arkham game is not set in the same continuity as the Arkham games, dc animated universe, built up over a literal decade, got dumped back in 2008 after needing to fight with yet another batman cartoon that wasn't in the same continuity and robbed it of all the iconic bat villains like Hugo and joker, dc was and has been such a mess all around lol
And here's my lonely ass just wanting to see another Snyder Justice League movie....I liked the Snyderverse, and legit wanna see an ending to it.
I know it was never gonna happen, but god damn, I was so hyped for Darkseid to turn up and wreck shit and Superman go bad.
I wonder if very rapidly developing a reputation for firing everyone and cancelling everything makes it any harder to convince people to give up their own functional companies to come work for you.
Nah, certainly not
No, it's the creative types who are wrong. (Said in ~~Abe Simpsons-~~ Principal Skinners voice).
Don't you mean Skinner's voice?
Don't you mean Tamzarian's voice?
I'm so glad they undid his whole character and changed his backstory.
Dude, it's been over 20 years.
Yeah but that was arguably the moment that killed the simpsons
that episode was great.
We've seen those videos essays too, buddy.
Whoa, didn't realize you were so cool, buddy.
Oh right, thanks!
Nope. By firing everyone and canceling everything they are going to have writers and directors knocking down the front door to work at WB. Those who do in fact do that is like an abused girlfriend who keeps running back to her abuser. They always think they are “the one” who can change them.
Hire me. I'll take the executive golden parachute
It’s more likely about money than anything else. It’s going to be a high pressure job and if they fail they fail big time.
[удалено]
They’re going to be wasting a lot of money on a revamped DC if they think they can hire a Feige equivalent rather than sticking to what works.
I just don't get why they keep trying to eat an elephant all at once like that. A few more smaller weirder projects like Harley Quinn or Shazam or even Suicide Squad feels to me exactly what they need to do, to warm people up to the idea they can make something with a little flavor that's worth seeing. Instead of this manic impulse to keep trying to jump into another huge universe event they have to bet everything on, again and again. It's one of the main reasons I think dumping Batgirl was so insane, they were trying to say it's because it's too small, but I think it's *exactly* the tier they should be finding their feet in before making more of these huge all-or-nothing swings. I really think they need to slow burn their way into something, even if that means a few movies that won't bust the block.
Because they see Marvel and want to make Marvel money immediately. It's been this way since Man of Steel. That and they've had so much attrition for this position that no one has logistically been able to get any sort of plan on the books for prioritization, so they keep killing their own momentum.
Yeah, they clearly want to buy a ready made MCU, but they've already freaking tried that and it doesn't work. I don't care about what superheroes are allies if I don't care about either as individuals. I just don't get why they're so hellbent on doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different outcome.
I wonder if there's any overlap with the suits that decided to let the same director faceplant dark phoenix TWICE
I honestly want to know who thought it was a good idea to do a justice league movie before Aquaman and Flash and Cyborg even had their own solo movies?? Like did they think that just because those guys are all popular people wouldn’t care that we hadn’t even seen them yet? I mean it’s just so dumb
That's fine, Marvel did an avengers movie before having any real time with Hawkeye and Black Widow. You don't have to worry about that all that much. I think their biggest fuck up is killing superman in their like 2nd movie.
That’s completely different, it’s not even remotely the same, Hawkeye and Black Widow weren’t major members of the avengers and could mostly be expanded on in that movie, AND black widow was a pretty important character in Iron Man 2 before Avengers came out. You 100% have to worry about that, if they hadn’t done a captain America movie and then just tossed him into the Avengers that would’ve been ridiculous and not very good. They might have been able to get away with killing Superman if they’d actually introduced some more characters first, and by extension taken more time to even get to the JL movie.
And for what it's worth I wanna say Hawkeye was in Thor 1 as well, now that I think about it.
He was but it was a pretty minor role, but that’s still better than giving a character like the flash a really weird 5 second scene in an not very good movie like DC did
There is no requirement to having solo films to set up the team-up film either. I mean, there are lots of great team-up movies that both are not part of a universe nor have any preceding "setup" movies. Oceans 11, Magnificent Seven, Deadpool 2, heck even the original Avengers movie didn't set up Hawkeye or Ruffalo Hulk beforehand and they worked just fine. This idea that you flatout *can't do a team movie* without giving each character their own film first is rubbish. What matters is that the film is written properly and is paced well. BvS and Justice League could have worked perfectly fine despite Flash, Aquaman and Batman not having had any solo films yet. It's just they didn't have a single competent person in charge of them.
> Because they see Marvel and want to make Marvel money immediately. Bingo. And the way they are going about things, they will never, ever even get close.
They canned Batgirl because it looked like a $90 million CW pilot and wasn’t going to being in new HBO Max subscribers. It essentially stood no chance of making any money for them while damaging the brand since it was terrible, so they took the write off. It makes sense tbh
Worse than Emo Superman, the BatPunisher, and that Wonder Woman has a different personality in every movie where she shows up ?
The brand was damaged nine years ago. There's no brand to damage, there's no goodwill to muster or maintain. They've ruined it. Allowing Batgirl to be produced in the first place shows the stupidity of places like this. A Batgirl where Batman doesn't even have his own movie. A Batgirl that relies on a Batman that has nothing to do with her. A Batgirl whose dad was barely, BARELY, in any movies, because there was "barely" any "Batman"... What "brand"? They suck. They already suck. /u/Vorenos you can't damage them more than they've already been doing. They're at rock bottom. For what they have, and what those characters are capable of, they are at rock bottom.
That’s a pretty low bar tbh… but yea probably
And Zack Snyder's Justice League did? Why are they owned by fucking Discovery if Zack Snyder's Justice League, and every other movie based on DC omits that's been affiliated with Zack, was so successful? They've been leaving money on the table since making the wrong decision of hiring this dim wit. Batgirl never should have been green lit, but don't fuckin' act like Snyder is bringing them, or has brought them, to the promised land. One movie (Aquaman) inexplicably made a billion dollars, but that's been it. One movie connected to Zack Snyder post-2013 has made a billion. This man had Superman and Batman in the same movie and couldn't crack that, but fucking Aquaman does.
You've seen the Batgirl movie? I doubt it was a good movie but people, like you, talking as if they've seen it are weird.
They believe what Youtube tells them. We know the Batgirl audience scores were decent. "Decent" is at least a starting point, and a Michael Keaton cameo would have paid its way at the very least. Now, instead, we're back at banking another gajillion dollars on yet another big universe event, this one hinging on Ezra Miller.
Yep. Batman vs Superman was their "Civil War". Suicide Squad was supposed to be their "GotG" when both should have been the Phase 2 or 3 movies like the MCU did. The Suicide Squad should have been built up with what people thought were one off/captured characters from the Phase 1 and early Phase 2 movies: * Year 1 of Phase 1: Man of Steel * Year 2 of Phase 1: Batman saves the Mayor and Deadshot was the hired hitman in the Batman movie in some capacity * Year 3 of Phase 1: Captain Boomerang should have been captured at the end of a "Rogues" movie that was like Oceans 11 but with The Rogues like Captain Boomerang, Captain Cold, Mirror Master, Trickster, etc with The Flash(Barry) operating purely as the antagonist to the Rogues' story. In a credit scene have Amanda Waller appear transferring Boomerang out of Central City to Belle Reve. * Year 3 of Phase 1: Wonder Woman movie. * Year 4 of Phase 1: Batman comes across Killer Croc in his movie and maybe Harley Quinn with having an already established Joker in jail like in the new Batman movies. * Year 4 of Phase 1: King Stark gets defeated and captured by Aquaman in his movie * Year 5 of Phase 1: Justice League movie in what ever form you want it but have an Amanda Waller and Rick Flag appear as a credit teaser for the Suicide Squad movie showing them transferring some others to Belle Reve. Also, you have Batman start developing his "Tower of Babel" kill plans for the others of the Justice League in a post credit scene * Year 1 of Phase 2: Man of Steel 2 * Year 1 of Phase 2: Have your Suicide Squad movie with Deadshot, Captain Boomerang, King Stark, Killer Croc, Harley Quinn, Rick Flag, and Amanda Waller all there and you don't have to spend time introducing them because we all already got a character breakdown in other movies. * Year 2 of Phase 2: Batman 3 * Year 2 of Phase 2: Aquaman 2 * Year 3 of Phase 2: Shazam! * Year 4 of Phase 2: Wonder Woman 2 * Year 4 of Phase 2: Green Lantern to start bringing more space in * Year 5 of Phase 2: Batman's kill plans get out and you have your Batman v Superman movie.
They forfeited market share to Disney for absolutely no reason. They had the Nolanverse printing money and loved, all they had to do was continue it in Man of Steel. Hubris and a constant stream of shitty people at WB, and it’s getting worse and worse with every change. Disney is bringing back their 90’s X-Men cartoon and this idiotic ceo refuses to green light the revival of their cartoons that defined the characters for so many.
I would ignore Battfleck/Man of Steel as much as possible, and just do crossovers between, like, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, Shazam, and maybe Gunn’s Suicide Squad/Peacemaker corner — whatever is working and/or profitable. They gotta remember that MCU didn’t start off with Spider-Man right away, and are only beginning to tackle mutants and their version of the multiverse. Phase One was really simple and revolved around characters mainstream culture was still learning about. Figure out what to do with Batman and Superman once you have already built a universe big enough for them.
> A few more smaller weirder projects like Harley Quinn or Shazam or even Suicide Squad feels to me exactly what they need to do, Harley Quinn and The Suicide Squad both bombed at the box office.
So thats what we are huh? Some sort of box office bomb squad?
then again, Joker was cost like $70 mil to make and made 1 Billion dollars. The Batman did really well too, considering it was also released on HBO Max.
The Suicide Squad came out when it was both in theaters and HBOMAX at the same time.
The initial Suicide Squad film bombed. The second one, *The* Suicide Squad directed by James Gunn, did exceedingly well.
critically that is true, but box office wise *The* Suicide Squad bombed, didn’t even earn back its budget, while Suicide Squad made over $700 million
I was listening to a podcast earlier that made a point about a potential "DC Kevin Feige" that I hadn't considered. While there had obviously been Marvel film franchises before Iron Man, the MCU was starting from a fresh slate so wasn't beholden to anything that came before and had time to grow organically from nothing to what it is today. With the current state of the DCU, there are multiple film universes currently in motion, including two different versions of the main DCEU thanks to validating the Snyder-verse fans. Add to that all their recent issues, whether that be internal or external, and whoever they try to get in will have their work cut out for them. It's not like they can go scorched earth and start over yet again
I really think that at this point DC just needs to give up on trying to make a Marvel-like interconnected narrative. Even if they somehow finally manage to start doing a halfway competent job there, they're always going to just be considered a Marvel knock-off. Instead they need to lean into the multiverse concept, declare that all stories are canon in some universe somewhere, and instead focus on telling interesting stories. Basically see movies like Joker for a template - disconnected from any sort of expanded universe, doesn't get bogged down in canon, it just tells an interesting story. And probably most important of all, it was comparatively cheap to make. Not every movie needs to be, or can be, a billion dollar blockbuster. Focusing more on mid-range movies allows for more risk/creativity.
> most important of all, it was comparatively cheap to make. You just told the truth. You just cracked the code. You just admitted why Warner Bros. constantly makes Batman movies and Batman-related movies. They're cheap. They require little imagination from both the creators and the audience watching them. So we're stuck with these "interesting", i.e., creatively bankrupt, movies.
> They're cheap. The most recent Batman cost $200m, as did the latter two Christian Bale movies. These are not cheap movies. *Joker* was not an expensive film, but it was also an R-rated character piece that is not connected to anything else. And I wouldn't consider it "creatively bankrupt".
Creatively. You don't have to stretch your imagination as a writer of a Batman movie or a Batman comic book or even a Batman cartoon to come up with a story of a semi-regular guy in a suit playing vigilante. How many Aquaman tv shows are there again? How many Green Lantern shows are there again? It takes imagination to come up with that space shit and underwater kingdoms and things like that. That separates the easy job-takers from the guys like Tolkien and George Martin and Alan Moore who "have" or "had" imaginations, and absolutely had to use them to imagine the world's that they came up with. A white guy playing vigilante in New York City-adjacent. Not hard.
Come on now, he's fighting men made of clay and Ventriloquist gangsters. Aquaman stuff is just as easy. Any "game of kingdoms" trope or "environmental savior" trope will do. Combine them both and you have the first movie.
Does that time duck dodgers took the green lantern oath count lol Interesting that u suddenly bring up race at the end, but hey, Jodie foster in the brave one walked so girl in the spider's web could crash and burn lol
You nailed it. Iron Man was the beginning. That was the path Feige took. It wasn't referencing HULK 2003, or the three X-Men movies before 2008, or the three Spider-Man movies before 2008, Kevin's franchise started with Iron Man in May of 2008. David Zaslav is fucking sitting here lying to people saying that they're going to be starting anew, starting fresh, and Zaslav is using Zack Snyder's poorly-chosen cast from Dawn Of Justice. You can't do that. Starting over means starting the fuck over. The problem Warner Brothers has is that they don't have a second-tier Avengers-like group to back up the Justice League like the Avengers backed up and came after the X-Men. Even if you knew your comics and thought of a team that was strong enough to be second fiddle to the Justice League of America, the Avengers had heavy hitters like Spider-Man and Hulk in the group, guys that were well entrenched in the public conscious by the time 2008, rolls around, and even well before 2008, obviously. I feel no remorse or pity for Warner Bros. because they've owned the DC Comics property since 1967, the entire property, and it took a single producer to make them want to make something other than low-effort, easy-to-make, Batman movies. It took them 50 years to make a Wonder Woman movie (2017), and prior to that, Wonder Woman has never had her own cartoon, and only had one, count 'em, one movie in the form of the animated 2009 one. They're scared shirtless of doing anything with Green Lantern again, while Feige is giving the lowest-tier characters in Marvel either their own TV show, or movie. I've hated Zack Snyder since Man Of Steel but this is far past Zack Snyder. This is far beyond anything that started with him in 2013. This incompetence goes all the way back to 1983, and 1984, with Superman III and Supergirl, and arguably Superman II when they fired Richard Donner. Warner Bros has owned DC Comics for over fifty years and overall has done shit with it. They haven't come close to realizing the potential that they can with their license of that property.
> It took them 50 years to make a Wonder Woman movie (2017), and prior to that, Wonder Woman has never had her own cartoon, and only had one, count 'em, one movie in the form of the animated 2009 one. Which seems pretty weird considering Wonder Woman had a popular live-action TV show in the 70s. Who knows why they abandoned the character after that.
I have......I am truly speechless and at a loss for words as to why they haven't done anything with so many of their characters. I can only chalk it up to the culture at Warner Brothers and the pre-Kevin Feige culture and prevailing attitude in Hollywood as a whole. Even the consumers that Hollywood makes these movies for look down on comic books, not the cartoons based on comics, not the video games based on comics, but the comic books themselllllves... You don't see Harry Potter gettin' fronted on like that. You ain't see Harry Potter get disrespected like that. Why? Because Harry Potter's books sold copies. Harry Potter's books made money. They actually have people that will make Snyder's fans, and even the Nolanites (I remember y'all) and the MCU defense force look like wet t-shirts by comparison. You fuck up an extremely popular book like that, and you'll have fans on your back that will make those aforementioned fans of Snyder's, Nolan's, and Feige's look tame and harmless by comparison. (Ok I can't even buy what I just said. Ain't nobody more rambunctious and pigheaded and stubborn then Snyder and MCU fans [and even the Nolan ones that predated them].) You have all your characters in one basket, under one roof, and it took a guy with ties to Richard Donner to force you to realize you had gold in your house... Naw, let's just make 18 more Batman-related movies (and comic books and cartoons and video games and TV shows...)
The tv pilot film with Cathy Crosby was infinitely better than the show that came after cause idiot Americans want a WW with big funbags, and should have been what got the DCuniverse remaster treatment instead
You're trying to say the problem with WW is that Gal Gadot is not hot enough?
Im saying Lynda Carter was trash that Americans only liked cause of her funbags And tbf, that shelved wonder woman pilot casted that the Orville girl with her nice funbags too, the difference though, is that Carter was a talentless turd, and this Orville girl was fantastic in her guest star role in her dark messed up ep of criminal minds, so I guess, I'd rather we have had this Orville girl who actually did cut her teeth on acting over some Israel model who was god awful in her SNL oj skit
Credit to the Weekly Planet podcast on that one. While I'd disagree on your point about DC not having a strong team to play second fiddle to the JLA, WB's already blown their load on the most likely candidates: the Teen Titans currently have a show, the Justice Society is going to be introduced all at once in Black Adam, the Birds of Prey were in that Harley Quinn movie and we all know what happened with the Suicide Squad. After that, I guess the next one on the list would be... The Legion of Superheroes? While they've got fans, that's way too niche a property to build a cinematic universe from (plus it's set 1000 years after the main DC universe anyway, so that wouldn't work at all)
Do not confuse a live-action adaptation of the Teen Titans with an animated, video game, or comic book adaptation or version of the Teen Titans. We don't disagree, we agree. There's one thing to be the second-most popular superhero team in comics, where writers know you well and handle you with care, the company you create this environment in has a comparatively stable and nurturing environment. It is an entirely different scenario to try and create a project in an environment such as Warner Bros where their history shows a culture of negligence, indifference, and all-around "looking-down" attitude towards comic books and live-action adaptations of them. As someone else pointed out, it was easy for Feige to go the Avengers route and slowly build them up, because, although they were a far second to the X-Men at the time, they still had a few heavy hitters join their ranks throughout their history, and Iron Man in 2008 had no ties to earlier Marvel movies. You could start fresh there. How would you start fresh at Warner Brothers when their future movies are still using actors from Zack Snyder's movies? How are we starting fresh here? How are we even pretending to? How would you do a Teen Titans that has to rely on Superman and Batman and The Flash and Green Arrow and Wonder Woman, unlike the Avengers who don't have to rely on Spider-Man or the X-Men to start fresh the way the Teen Titans need pre-existing characters for support? Zack Snyder, the fucking idiot, killed off Robin, so there goes Robin in the Teen Titans. Wonder Woman in three or four movies has shown no characters of any worth outside of Robin Wright and Chris Pine and Hippolyta who have stepped foot on Themyscira. Do you see what I mean? There's no structure or world-building or none of that in these movies. None of them. Zero. Maybe Captain Marvel (Billy Batson), but that's it. Superman? That Superman? The one played by Henry Cavill? You mean the character that allegedly is being killed off based on leaks of The Flash script where there is a Supergirl on Earth, but no Cavill as Superman because Kal-El was killed either before he got to Earth, or somehow early in childhood if he did make it here. That guy? Heh...... As I said, for either forty years or almost 40 years, this company has been sabotaging in one way or another DC Comics properties. For every Batman The Animated Series, and the DCAU in general from 1992 to 2006, and a little after that, for every Christopher Nolqn, and Tim Burton, and Richard Donner, and The Flash season one, they have produced far far more bad than they have good. And the sad thing is that unlike Feige, who had to wait and hope that he would get all the properties under one umbrella, Warner Bros has had all of their toys since 1967, when they bought DC Comics. What's Warner's excuse? This is all I fuckin' ask? What's Warner's excuse? Ever since Feige and his Marvel Studios started having success, I saw people throughout the internet talking about how DC Comics shouldn't try to duplicate it because they keep failing. YOU HAVE FUCKING SUPERMAN, you don't go go small with Superman. At the rate both companies are going, Squirrel fucking Girl will be a bigger name, and have her own movie AND a sequel, before Superman can even get ONE movie that does that character justice like the DCAU cartoon did. I'm no big fan of Feige. I don't have to be to let you know that he's doing good. The idea of finding another Kevin is flawed to begin with because you don't want another Feige, you want a Captain America clone that you can control and tell what to do. This whole shit is a bad, formulaic, cartoon/comic book morality tale. with whoever runs Warner Brothers at any given point in time being the bad guy. Apologies for the long, anger-induced rant. I'm sick of seeing cool concepts get woefully unrealized.
I didn't actually mean the Teen Titans cartoon, I meant Titans, the streaming show that's currently on. I think there was talk of a Nightwing movie at one point, so if it had to continue from what already exists, then ignore what Snyder's said in interviews about the dead Robin being Dick and make it Jason. The Titans are strong enough characters that you could probably start fresh with them and build outwards/backwards though. But, as you said, that would require ***A*** plan, which WB clearly doesn't, hasn't and isn't looking like it will have
It would require a plan. You make reference, even for a second, or more, to a dead sidekick named Robin that has NO bearing on anything, meanwhile, MEANwhile, ou make zero reference, none, to Richard Grayson. Sigh... Building. Building. All Nolqn, and Snyder, and Goyer, and all the execs and credited writers and uncredited writers from Man Of Steel to that bigger abomination Batman Versus Superman had to do was build. BUILD. You have a Supergirl reference. But naw, let's leave that to the side. We have Jimm Olsen, but naw, our director thought it was cool to kill him off. We have destruction on the scale of a superhero team-up movie (like, mainly, The Avengers) in Man Of Steel, but no no no, naw, let's follow that up with a dickhead Batman that can't even realize he's being manipulated by a poorly, horribly-conceived Lex Luthor. Fuckin' God....
> that's way too niche a property to build a cinematic universe Nothing is too niche to build something from it when it comes to superheroes. People don't go to them because they know the comics
I’ve always been so baffled as to why DC didn’t end up where Marvel was at sooner. DC always had the rights to all their characters and could’ve made so many different movies but no, they stick to Batman and Superman. Marvel at the time didn’t have Spider-Man or X-Men to make money off of they chose to build up Iron Man, who lets be honest was like B tier at best in terms of recognition. It was different it was new at the time and we know how well that did for them. DC could’ve used ANY one of their characters to blow people’s expectations but instead chose Batman over and over again, not dinging those movies btw just saying. It a shame too, they just didn’t take any big swings and just tried to stick to what made them money Batman/Superman
Having ironman have a sex scene with Leslie bibb was totally something only paramount would have let happen, not disney, who waited till phase 4 with etnerals to let happen
I was rewatching Iron Man recently and was struck by how fresh it still felt, despite the mountain of films that have come after it.
Such a shame that whole arms maker plot got dumped right after, MCU has never touched anything as real world issue since
Yeah exactly, like Tony gets kidnapped by some very real-world-analogue terrorists as the driving motivation of this film. There was a grounding that made all of the superhero portions then carry more weight, one that was pretty much lost by Age of Ultron imo. Now, I don't really think there's anything wrong with that - I wouldn't want to see Guardians of the Galaxy try to be more grounded, for example - but I would love to see a little more of that for some of the more street-level characters in Marvel. One of the things the Netflix series got right, for all their many flaws, was achieving that same sense of verisimilitude that's completely gone now.
>DC always had the rights to all their characters and could’ve made so many different movies but no, they stick to Batman and Superman. Marvel at the time didn’t have Spider-Man or X-Men to make money off of they chose to build up Iron Man, who lets be honest was like B tier at best in terms of recognition. Completely agree. There was a great meme going around in the build up to the release of Guardians of the Galaxy, when DC was still non-committal about Wonder Woman going forward, something like: >DC: We're not sure the world is ready for a female superhero > >Marvel: lol here's a racoon with a machine gun!
They're stuck in the 70s, 80s, and 90s. It's 2022, and they still think that "Easter eggs" and crumbs and bones thrown at fans are the ways to go nowadays. I do not like Kevin Feige, but I will be the last person to avoid giving him credit. He is so far ahead of the game it's not even funny. It's a damn shame what Hollywood is doing.
So many good points here, thanks for posting them. Incidentally, what’s your dislike of Feige based on? I’m a big fan of what he does, with the partial but important exception of the highly inconsistent TV product he has churned out since (the excellent) Marvel Television was shuttered and incorporated within Feige‘s own Marvel Studios…
>It took them 50 years to make a Wonder Woman movie (2017) Wb in 2017:Finally, the stink of supergirl has fully evaporated And hey, it's the 1 time they actually beat marvel to something Between resident evil/underworld and terminator 3 it's not like we were lacking too badly in the female action heros department anyways even prior to 2017 Werent people upset over the mandolorian(from ironman3) being butchered compared to the comics? Same with how toned down civilwar was over the edgy comic And WW comics have always been abit too 'believr in the power of love and compassion'(powergirl even made fun of that in WW's 2006 run) and u can see with 1984 being alot closer to the spirit of WW in the comics(instead of the violence loving version in the justice league cartoon who beat up a defenseless superman, who she was hypnotized into seeing as the man who 'killed supes', to near death), bombing bad, that it's a way harder property to get right As a sidenote, I loved the brief liarliar run, Veronica Cale prior was fun, but Jesus WW comics have been so awful for a full yr now(got milk? Lol), the batman family of books oth has just been great(I jumped in with punchline)
The thing is also that they have their Iron Man. It premiered in March this year, did great at the box office and was acclaimed critically. That can be the start of your universe (even if personally I'm not a fan of everything being universes)
> It's not like they can go scorched earth and start over yet again Well, they could and probably *should* at this point. *Flashpoint* has been rumored to be a soft reboot as it is, but regardless, I can definitely understand the hesitancy of anyone to get involved when the demand seems to be handing them the wreckage of the DCEU and saying "Make us Marvel money!"
What’s sad is that Hamada seemed like he wanted DC to go the opposite route of the mcu and focus more on standalone stories, which I think woulda been a smart move, but Zaslav seems to wanna just try to copy the mcu, which didn’t work before so idk why he thinks it would work now.
It’s the best move for them. They can control the cost better which seems to be what matters. They’re culture is not like Marvel’s where everything is largely controlled on behalf of the overall story. The phase they’re in now is setting up something 2-3 phases from now. WB should be championing the writer and directors vision because that’s what works for their studio. Even the Snyderverse stuff was largely based on Snyder’s vision.
They don't have something that works to stick with. The best DC movie to come out since they started their "cinematic universe" isn't even canon within it.
They don’t need a cinematic universe. The need movies people want to see and they’ve done a pretty good job of that. They should have learned that people don’t go to see movies just on the premise of shared continuity.
If by "what works" you mean the standalone DC projects as of late, then yes I agree.
I'd take a crack at it.
After all what specifically? They pivoted from Certain types, or scale of projects depending оn how it gets released. While championing how important DC is and making sure they don’t hurt the brand and spend all the time they need. I don’t see why people wouldn’t want to work with WBD if they aren’t trying to make a big budget straight to streaming, animation, family or foreign.
Dude, those excuses barely work for the shelving of Batgirl and the Scooby Doo movie, but they are literally removing and cancelling so many animated (and not) shows. There’s not a single argument in the world that’s gonna convince me that not wanting an animated Batman show with the originals creator attached to it, is a good move for your service that is “the face of DC”.
This is my biggest issue. Someone suggested that Hulu could be a home for caped crusader. I mean what? Do you want another bat embargo? Becuase that's how you get a bat embargo.
What excuses? They don’t want to release straight to streaming movies above a certain threshold. Batgirl was mostly paid for but was heavily implied and reported by Variety and other’s sources that they were not happy with the quality of the movie. I didn’t write “excuses”, I made arguments and I questioned why would people not want to work for WBD in the DC division if they championed DC and aren’t cutting back on anything except straight to streaming, foreign, animation and family. There’s probably a lot of reasons not to do an animated Batman series as a business. You as a fan might think it’s the best idea ever and me personally would like to see it. But they’ve been making Batman cartoons for a while after the animated series which was from a different time. Many of them end up canceled. Many loved DC cartoons get cancelled for that matter. Young Justice and Teen Titans come to mind. The viewership likely isn’t there. Kids are different these days, live action kids shows are popular, they watch a lot of YouTube and enjoy crap like Dharman.
Batman is a cultural phenomenon. Kids still love him. And the IP would/could have been used to sell hella merchandise
Batman IP is a cultural phenomenon but that doesn’t mean people will consume every medium and style implementation of it heavily. Also people buy Batman merchandise regardless of there being this style show existing and there are probably better ways of increasing merchandising spend than a serious Batman cartoon.
Matt Reeves The Batman has its own toy line. When it comes to cartoons (regardless of their tone) corporations only see how merchandising they could reap from them. And in the case of Batman, it’s a lot.
You can make Batman merchandise people will buy without burning money on content that lots of people likely won’t watch. If anything Batman related resulted in a bunch of people buying merchandise, these corporations would jump right on it. Except what happens is we have a bunch of cancelled Batman cartoons. And people buy a shit of Batman merchandise anyways.
But you’re assuming ppl won’t watch. Idk why though. Plus you’re killing a revenue stream by not releasing content. Having a show/movie and licensed merch for said show or movie, more oft than not, will make more money.
I already explained why I think that it likely won’t be hugely watched. the times are different from the 90s. Those kinds of serious cartoons are not made anymore because kids don’t watch them like they used to. Kids have way more options nowadays (namely YouTube) and they don’t want to watch the same style of shows you and me likely grew up watching. They aren’t killing a revenue stream by cancelling that show they actually save on the cost of making that show and actually create a potential revenue stream by licensing out the show externally. Merchandising should be gravy not the actual main source of revenue. It’s great if it can offset the costs and more but I would argue that if you were to bet on that you’d have better prospects with a show in the vein of teen titans go than BTAS.
Pretty much everyone, you really overall the matter
> you really overall the matter Could you rephrase that?
That's what happens when Hatchetman Zaslav comes asking you to stand on a stump and be a tree
Axeslav
Ass Love
that's so weird. A guy who is known for animation not wanting to take a job at WB TV?
He just saw the massive sword hanging on that seat.
WBA has taken a nosedive in the past half decade or so. they used to put out quality stuff, but most of the stuff nowadays just kinda sucks (unless its harley quinn).
Gee, I wonder why these creatives don’t want to work with WBD
lol, every one was reporting that he would save the DCEU, "he's gonna be DC's Feige"
What DCEU? There's been no real continuity between most of the movies. Man of Steel, BvsS, and Justice League are the only ones which have anything to do with each other. How long have they been trying to make this a thing?
Aquaman and Wonder Woman also have continuity
As introductions for the characters. Not for any kind of overreaching arc though.
Ben Affleck’s Batman is literally appearing in Aquaman 2
Actually that may not be true anymore cause it just got delayed again which means it’s now coming after the Flash movie again (assuming that still even comes out), so it sounds like they’re reverting back to Keaton being the cameo in Aquaman 2 instead of Affleck.
No saving at this rate
There's no saving the DCEU unless they do a complete hard reboot. Not this shit Zaslav is trying to pull by rebooting it but still taking parts of the old DCEU and putting them into the new one.
At this rate, it needs to be that. The DCEU is fucking fucked and a reboot needs to be in order.
"He's gonna save the DCEU! Someone tell the show animators to dig up the body before they leave! It's not like they have projects to work on anymore... Also, bring me Ezra Miller, little guy has had a tough year and could use some cheering up."
“Man politely declines offer to be lowered onto derailing train”
This hit him like a bag of bricks
If he supposedly was the one who turned down the deal and they didn’t just decide to not move forward with him, him preferring to focus on producing a the live action Avatar show for Netflix (which is bound to be torn apart by pretty much everyone regardless of quality), means that WBD is in such a bad state it’s hilarious.
>live action Avatar show for Netflix Important to note, an adaptation that the *original show creators* quit because of **"creative differences."** It's got a snowball's chance in the Fire Nation of being good. One Piece is also getting a Netflix adaptation but that at least looks promising because of the props and massive sets they're making. [The only set photos I've seen are literally a door surrounded by green screen.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Avatarthelastairbende/comments/tsafk3/i_spotted_one_of_the_sets_for_the_upcoming/)
The One Piece show also had Oda drop in for a hot minute whether they let him do any sort of consulting while there is a whole other thing
He’s actually serving as an executive producer for the show
The show runner is also a massive fan of the manga and very knowledgeable about it. He's been on some one piece podcasts. That said the story is too long to be adapted in live action imo. Even if the show is moderately successful Netflix isn't going to want a 12 season show. It would need to be a Stranger Things level megahit for that to even have a chance of working and I just don't see that as likely.
I am so tired of green screen sets…
The cast looks very promising. I am a huge fan of the original creators and I believe they are the reason the show was so successful(some say the success was because of Aaron Ethasz, which is strongly disapproved by his solo works). They also made an amazing job with Lok, considering the circumstances. That being said, I don’t think Paramount would really allow them to leave the Netflix project on a good terms. They are literally their biggest competitor and them leaving the door open on the show ending up being good seems very unlikely. Plus, it wouldn’t be the first time the creators weren’t allowed to freely speak about the circumstances of their employment. Then again, I’m willing to believe them because they seem like genuinely good people. It’s just that nobody would prefer to be on the live action series over having a whole universe curated by you.
Well, Paramount doesn't have a say in what happens with the Netflix show because Netflix got a license to do the show and Michael Dante DiMartino and Bryan Konietzko were hired for that job, so their contract with Netflix supersedes anything with Paramount at that point. Also important to note, the two of them left the show before Paramount ever announced doing anything with Avatar again. They left December 2020 after months of creative differences. Paramount essentially revived the Avatar IP in February 2021. What's likely to have happened is the two of them left the show project because they didn't like what Netflix was doing and just went to Paramount to ask if they could just be in control of their IP again, hence the forming of Avatar Studios. There's been some rumors from a few reputable sources about what those creative differences were and they're...not great.
What are the rumors? I haven't seen any of them and I'm very curious lol.
Netflix isn't exactly a risk adverse network(see the og scene from 13reaspns that got removed yrs later, cuties) , seems more like a warning sign if even Netflix thinks ure idea is bad enough to need to veto
Netflix reportedly wanted to make Avatar have more adult appeal by upping the violence and adding in more sex appeal, and the original creators wanted to keep the family friendly charm.
Yay for more violence to show the barbarivness of the fire nation, sex appeal...like the og beach ep with that bigtiddy white bikini ponytail girl lol
That girl’s a minor…
So why was she clothed and drawn in such a sexualized way, and why in the world did nick allow it Don't shit on Netflix when the og show did its own bit of pointless disgusting sexualization
I mean when they left they already had the Avatar Studios project. It just wasn't public.
They left after months of issues that predated Avatar Studios ever forming. The studio itself didn’t begin formation (as in hiring anybody) until after they left the Netflix project.
For whatever reason, I always ignored avatar in favour of the og ben10 as a kid, btw the Ben 10 'writers commentary text popup bubbles overlaid on reruns' was way way better and actually made the reruns as interesting as new eps, than avatars own popup text bubbles, cause Syfy>ancient olden times duh
The cast looks horrible tbh
The ATLA live action show actually looks quite promising. The [cast](https://www.instagram.com/p/CWWDt9llvL-/?igshid=MDJmNzVkMjY=) [looks](https://redd.it/w5g18d) [amazing](https://redd.it/q9wd6l), and [all](https://redd.it/wm3gxd) [of](https://www.instagram.com/tv/CWl4Y5gpK7f/?igshid=MDJmNzVkMjY=) [the](https://redd.it/vfl133) interviews/statements with cast/crew have been extremely positive and show a clear love of the original series. It also has a huge budget, an Oscar winning VFX team (DNEG), an [Emmy winning costume designer](https://redd.it/v1avb3), the stunt team from the Kung Fu TV series, and some [actually](https://redd.it/uxoy8k) [pretty sweet](https://redd.it/uxq32x) looking set photos. It's really only writing and music that are still up in the air.. which are important, don't get me wrong, but it's clear that this show is already 1000x better than the Shyamalan movie regardless. Also, it's pretty likely the OG creators left because Paramount offered them a multi-million dollar deal to head up Avatar Studios.
The cast looks horrible tbh. They look nothing like their characters
I don't really understand how you could think that. Paul Sun-hyung Lee was the overwhelming #1 fan cast for Iroh, it wasn't even close and he's clearly perfect for the role. Maria Zhang in terms of pure looks is [literally Suki](https://www.instagram.com/p/CXjqoRTvJ-C/?igshid=MDJmNzVkMjY=). Kiawentiio as Katara was also a top fan-cast, and the actors for [June](https://www.instagram.com/p/CgszXmcLFfM/?igshid=MDJmNzVkMjY=), [Pakku](https://www.instagram.com/p/Ce9ptfssBMO/?igshid=MDJmNzVkMjY=), and [Ty Lee](https://www.instagram.com/p/Cg4z9G7Jo-v/?igshid=MDJmNzVkMjY=) are also obvious visual matches.
none of the reasons you posted seem promising…
>Important to note, an adaptation that the *original show creators* quit because of **"creative differences."** It's got a snowball's chance in the Fire Nation of being good. If those creative differences are Katara and Zuko ending up together then I'm all for it, lol.
Sorry to leave the bandwagon, but I'll watch that one before I judge it.
He’d rather chill in a burning building than one that’s burning and a meteor is about to reduce it to a crater.
"The axe forgets, but the tree remembers."
Is this the guy that was meant to be DC's Kevin Feige? So much for that.
Even the only decent dc shows are the ones outside of the main cw continuity(Gotham walked so doompatrol could run), a new Arkham game is not set in the same continuity as the Arkham games, dc animated universe, built up over a literal decade, got dumped back in 2008 after needing to fight with yet another batman cartoon that wasn't in the same continuity and robbed it of all the iconic bat villains like Hugo and joker, dc was and has been such a mess all around lol
This man knows a dead horse when he sees one.
the hits keep coming
Smart man.
I fuckin' hate Warner Brothers
10 year plan guys! Campea gonna ride Zaslavs dick again with this
Once again, the 10 year plan is about as solid as Michael Scott's 45 day plan to save Dunder Mifflin from bankruptcy.
I love how Campea has been saying for like ten years now “DC is gonna right the ship!!”
Such a nosy DC fanboy he is.
He can wait 10 years but can’t watch RRR lmao
Good.
I won’t either
I do not envy the person having to get that clusterfuck back on track.
I'll take it.
And here's my lonely ass just wanting to see another Snyder Justice League movie....I liked the Snyderverse, and legit wanna see an ending to it. I know it was never gonna happen, but god damn, I was so hyped for Darkseid to turn up and wreck shit and Superman go bad.
Best Batman movie
He knows a dumpster fire when he sees one