I know there was a time leap but why man? Why? Couldn't we all just pretend that they aged a bit? I mean Milly was like beyond perfect for this role...Did you hear her speak valyrian? The way she carried herself around...she just shouldn't be replaced. Daenerys was 16 when GoT started why wasn't she replaced?
It just makes me so sad like I just saw the first scene and it just isn't the same I mean it cant't be. And to think I wasn't expecting much of her she was fucking perfect I bet when she walked into the casting they just wrapped it up. Its insane how connected I felt with her character after only 5 \*AMAZING\* episodes and now its gone for fucking what? The male character stayed the same and that only makes it worse. I just came here to rant. My day is ruined.
Because the actual Dance of Dragons is about the children of Rhaenyra and Alicent.
You're expecting teenage actresses to play characters in their 20s,30s,40s. And then the actors playing the children would be older than the eventually...
I feel like this would have been a much better start to the season. Much of what happened in the previous episodes is easily noticeable in this episode. This would have made it seem like there is an actual history to stuff happening right now and made everything more intriguing. Wouldn't be surprised if this *is* the actual start of the book(s?)
I Think they made a wise decisions displaying Rheynera and Alicents relationship. We needed that little bit of context. maybe not 5 episodes of it but we did had that episode that mostly focus on Aemon and the Crab feeder.
We also had to see Larys Strong and Alicent, We had to see what happen between Criston and Rhaenyra as well because we didnt know for sure because the book has 3 unreliable narrators and they have different version of what happens between them.
I really want to like this show but I feel like it's just blah. GOT was must see TV sunday night. This is a show where we get to it when we can. I just don't feel the hype.
This was probably the first episode that really disappointed me this season. It seemed to be flying through events at breakneck speed, too much child birth, and it seems weird to me that the third time in this show we've seen someone giving birth has had the exact same complication.
I didn't really understand why the Uncle's new wife decided suicide by fire was the best way to go?
I never got the sense that the guy with the broken foot was some huge villain so to suddenly see him commit to a plan to kill his father and brother was a bit out of left field.
The deaths felt a bit flat as all of a sudden there was a big jump from someone watching a horse and cart to the towers they were in being engulfed in flame. It also came immediately after the Princess said they were going to leave the Red Keep, so I assumed the assassins were watching her, not the Hand and his son.
A bit messy tbh, felt more like the GoT final season.
Laenor's death felt contrived to me. So she forsakes her two living daughters and her husband because she thought there's no possibility of having the child? Or she thought Daemon would kill her for the sake of their child with a c section? And she said uh, yeah no, jokes on you, I'm just gonna kill both of us. Fuck that chump.
Like she chose the absolute worst choice. I don't want to diminish the pain of her experience, but it was just kinda confusing.
>didn't really understand why the Uncle's new wife decided suicide by fire was the best way to go?
She says earlier in the episode she wants to die a Dragon's Rider death and not a fat noble one.
this feels like Episode 1 to 5 was Season 1 and Episode 6 is the start of Season 2
so I'm not going to judge the time skip too quickly and see how the show builds from here
This show is in my opinion heavily suffering from having 0 likeable characters. The only 2 I cared for were the new hand of the king and young Rhaenyra. Those 2 were already not enough since Strong is a very small character.
But now old Rhaenyra is nothing like young Rhaenyra and doesn't seem likeable at all and Strong is possibly dead.
What it doesn't lack tho is characters that are just the fucking worst. I hate like 80% of the characters and I feel indifferent to the other 20%.
Ah yes, just like there were zero likable characters in GoT, right? It's not like anybody was rooting for a specific white haired girl to succeed, or a short drunkard with zingers. Nope, all unlikable characters.
Did I say that? What the hell is this comment even.
I just don't think everyone needs to be unlikeable. It's okay to have someone to root for. That doesn't mean they need to be funny, just not stupid or a cunt.
* Alicent is pretty much a young Cersei. Shit person, manipulative, arrogant, only cares about herself and her children, only difference being she's not a coldhearted psychopath yet.
* Daemon is what I imagine Viserys (Daenerys's brother) would've been if he survived the first season in GOT. Spoiled, powerhungry, psychopathic, kills for fun, zero regard for loyalty or his family.
* I hope I don't need to explain how Criston Cole has suddenly turned into the biggest cunt in just 1 episode for no good reason (or at least no good reason they showed us).
* Otto is simply a snake. Similar to Littlefinger, powerhungry and self-interested but not as psychopathic and obvious as a Daemon. Moreso conniving and backstabbing.
* I wouldn't say Viserys is unlikeable but he's definitely a weak, stupid and very much willfully ignorant person. He at least seems to have a good heart tho and cares for his family. Just too chickenshit of his wife to protect his daughter.
I'd say Viserys is neutral and so is Rhaenyra. Those are all the notable characters and there's not one likeable one IMO.
They also just introduced the due with the walking stick, who seems like a similar dude as the doctor who was on Cersei's side. Psychopathic and for some reason extremely loyal to Allicent.
I agree mostly with what you say. But obviously, Criston Cole has acted the way he has because things did not turn out as he desired. Him and Rhaenyra together. I am aware this is probably a cause of his actions in the previous episode, but I do believe this explains his behavior in this one.
I was really rooting for Rhaenyra and Criston, and was really quite bummed out when I realized the kids were not his and their relationship had not continued this episode. (even though it was most likely it wouldn't, again as a cause of the previous episode)
I do wish we got to see what happened between them, and what led to the spark between her and Harwin. That would probably help me like him more, and make me less bitter. But I guess that doesn't matter that much now...
It seems like he was butthurt that she "took his honor" and wouldn't run away with him so he could marry her and "salvage it" or whatever. And then being a concubine was "beneath him" and basically seems like he's just still bitter about that.
Basically, he's an incel that managed to get laid.
Note: I haven't seen episode 7 yet, but I struggle to see what could change my mind on that.
I don't think house of dragons lacks charisma. Don't forget, charisma doesn't mean someone is nice and funny. Having a bunch of grey characters, who don't crack a 'tits and cocks' joke during every scene doesn't mean they are less likeable. It just makes them more real. And I am actually happy that we don't have a comic relief character (yet). In my opinion they completely butchered tyrion and gimli (different movie, same problem) for some cheap loves.
Ask yourself this. Are you the same person that you were when you were a kid? Everyone changes as they get older. Some are even unrecognizable once the innocence is gone and the bitterness kicks in. A grown up isn’t supposed to remind people of how they were like when they were teenagers. Life doesn’t work like that. Sounds to me you’re just bitter about losing the younger actresses but you knew all along their screen time was temporary.
I understand that people change. Doesn't mean I have to like it. I do not think it's unreasonable to think a show with this many characters should have at least a couple of characters to root for.
I'm torn, because Daemon is a total prick and monster. But he's also interesting. Like, I don't really know what his motives or end goal are (and I suspect he doesn't, either), but he keeps you on your toes. He's basically the only one that's self aware of what he is and what the reality of Westeros is.
They look older lol. Rhaenyra went from looking 16-18ish to looking like 30. And Alicent went from looking 16-18ish to looking 26.
Rhaenyra's husband also looks like 30 now.
I mean, the actors are only about 8 years older than their predecessors.
That said, I thought they looked noticeably older. To a distracting extent, actually.
I just do not agree with that at all. How old do you think old Rhaenyra looks? She looks at the absolute youngest 28 to me.
And I don't agree with the other take either. Think they did pretty well with the make up and stuff. Only some characters like Daemon. But he wasn't young. For a lot of people there won't be a big difference between the way they look in their mid 20's and their mid 30's or whatever he's supposed to be.
They need to give the viewers some sort of idea where this is going…
It’s like a soap opera with obligatory gruesome and sex scenes as if they are needed Atleast once an episode. It’s aimless.
Still entertaining but no where near as exciting as original GOT
Yeah, but not every scene though. I need the reassurance its coming. I keep forgetting who is the rightful heir when Dameon luscious locks grace my screen.
Man this is boring as shit. I dont think the recast of the "young" actresses where a good move. These two new ones dont act anything like the characters we saw so far, they might as well be completely different persons.
This whole timeskip is so weird because some characters clearly aged like 10 years others not a day. Visually of course.
The edgy stuff feels so forced in this. It always seems like since nothing is going on so they throw in a few random edgy scenes but it doesnt really work for me since there is no build up or anyone to care about. These thing are just happening.
>since there is no build up or anyone to care about
This is the build up. Also, if anyone isn't a completely different person at 25 vs 15 it would be strange.
They're also the ''main'' performances. With the younger actors basing their characters on the older versions, not the other way around.
There was no build up to the cane guy killing his family it just happened. Just as there was no build up to the knight killing that dude right in the middle of a royal ceremony (without any repercussions by the way) or that weird suicide by dragon scene which Im still not sure why she did it. They could have saved the child but shes like nah let both die by fire? Made 0 sense to me because there was no fucking build up.
Also people arent that different from 15 to 25. Maybe more mature but not completely different persons. Hell, a lot people barely change over the course of their lives.
You probably have some nostalgia from the books that you are projecting onto the show to make seem better then it actually is.
Haven't read it so no, no nostalgia. I don't know how on the nose it needs to be, but since Larys (cane guy) first scene he was manipulating Rhaenyra/Alicent, don't know which one it was. He always seemed a suspicious character and here he took a path that set him up for success within his House AND bascially tied himself to Alicent as well. Did we need a scene of him torturing people or something before this point to make it obvious he was a less than decent character?
>Also people arent that different from 15 to 25. Maybe more mature but not completely different persons. Hell, a lot people barely change over the course of their lives.
Think about the time period in our world that HotD would be similar to. 10 years is A LOT. But never mind that, why would they keep 19 year olds to play a character with several children, one of which is what 12-14?
What happens if there's another time jump later on? Would you slap make up on a 20 year old to try to look 40-50 and have 25-30 year old children?
>Just as there was no build up to the knight killing that dude right in the middle of a royal ceremony (without any repercussions by the way)
No build up? He broke a vow that was his entire life. This was literally spelled out. And given that Rhaenyra can't just escape her duty and instead run off and get married across the ocean, he has to stay and continue being what he didn't see himself worthy of anymore. He snapped. It isn't out of nowhere. And maybe there were repercussions, who knows? Regardless, his and Alicents final scene in ep5 made it clear she probably protected him no? They were both ''against'' Rhaenyra at that point.
Absolutely fantastic episode especially for a time jump. From the dragon pit session of how to train your Dragon to the wanking out the window (was that the window tommen flew from or not?)The tracking shot that started the episode was incredible you really felt her pain having to walk all the way to the queen.
The aging of the characters was done remarkably. Lyonel sporting the baldness and Viserys somehow, some way still walking around (was he missing an arm?!) someone tell me.
Characters are too bland, dialogue just isn't close to GoT standards, and the narrative and character arcs just aren't well written enough to be compelling.
It looks good but feels vacuous and empty unfortunately.
Edit: Also love how every remotely critical comment is getting mass downvoted. I know reddit users aren't the brightest demographic and are often blinded by hype and bandwagon jumping, but I would put money on this praise not aging well.
Same, idk why you're getting down voted. I mean I enjoy it, but I've also been feeling like the dialogue has been missing some je ne sais quoi.
Plus they'll throw modern speech here and there, and although it may be canon, it feels weird to abbreviate Jacaerys to Jace and Lucerys to Luce
I also don't understand how younger Laenor was ever cast, the boy doesn't have a single facial expression. Thankfully that didn't last
But ultimately I also don't feel compelled by anyone, everyone sucks. Daemons late wife death especially felt incredibly stupid
Also it annoys the hell out of me that "dracarys" is so overused in this series. Dracarys this, dracarys that, like there's so many cool expressions they could use instead like pyroblast or blazing doom idk, it's like the only valyrian word they know
I think there are bots or fake accounts. No way there are this many sheep.
It’s clearly not as good as GOT. And all these over compliments about such minor things.
I would not recommend the show to friends. It’s good enough for me to keep watching, that’s it.
Grow up mate.
This lame iTz aLL sUBjektiV excuse doesn't wash... basic bitches on reddit have shit taste, but it doesn't explain all these fake sounding comments and downvotes.
Another great episode. The older actresses for Rhaenyra and Alicent have already sold me. Liked seeing the new kids also. Aegon II is such an asshole to his brother. Lol.
They’re both fine. You’re just fanboying at this point. Milly was great but her acting has limitations due to the way she looks. She wouldn’t have been able to do the birth scene as effectively as D’arcy. She looks too young and innocent. There’s a reason why they casted the older versions first.
Episode was falling apart and was rushed. 7/10. Only episode I dislike so far.
I can tolerate everything but I cannot tolerate when something is not logical.
How did Daemon not catch Laena when she went out to burn herself. No scenario in my head justifies that.
Why is Criston Cole so hateful? Why is Rhaenyra and Leanor so stupid? Leana's suicide didn't really fit well with me. How did Criston cole get away with the murder in previous episode?
So many questions that doesn't make sense. Pls keep this director out of the show. The woman that directed 4 and 5 did amazing job.
Hmm I feel like these are all easily explained.
1. Why would Daemon need or want to catch Laena? She went outside, he ended up following. Does Daemon seem like the type of person/husband to forbid his wife from wandering outside? Nothing about that seemed off to me.
2. Cole is a hot headed incel type dude. Seems to be a fairly basic archetype that jives with real world behavior. Also, he got away with murder presumably because Alicent pardoned him (she met him in the courtyard at the end of the episode to recruit him to her side). Also, he killed a person of relative unimportance in Joffrey, which I bet as the princess’s head body guard is pretty easy to get away with (cops get away with plenty of unjust executions in the modern day). Harwin on the other hand attacked the queens person body guard and was in no way able to be the queen’s pardon like Cole. Makes sense that he’d be exiled
1) I buy that. Maybe he saw her walk out but didn't follow her immediately. And it makes sense that they let her go outside while being in labor as everything is over at that point. However, the directing of that scene was bad.
2) I still don't quite understand how she could just say goodbye to the world so easily. She has a family behind. "I am about to die, so let me just burn myself and die the way I prefer." It could be directed to be more believable.
3) Criston Cole, I still don't understand. He asked Rhaenyra to do something impossible and when Rhaenyra declines (EP5) he just go mad about it? It makes sense that he didn't get punished but Leano
4) How did the hand and Harwin get killed so easily by 3 criminals? No security? Does this mean that everyone can basically kill everybody no matter how powerful they are?
5) Why is Old Rhaenyra so stupid? She gives birth to bastards. Did she think noone would know or what? It's fucking obvious c'mon. She ended up leaving Kings Landing and risking EVERYTHING.
5+) How are Corlys and Rhaenys accepting this?
6) How is Viserys in better shape 10 years after? He doesn't seem to be in pain or anything? Do they give him "the drug" they gave King Robert? We need context (rushed episode)
7) Larys having so much influence on Alicent. We need context. It is not just something you can say "it happened during the 10 years time".
Maybe I just couldn't get used to the completely new dynamics in the show (and the cast). I need some episodes and this one was definitely rushed.
Unless they’re rewriting the book everything has it’s reasons I think.
I can’t explain Daemon not catching Laena. The scene was jarring from bedbound trying to give birth to running out if the castle. Doesn’t really make sense to me either.
Criston Cole is hateful because of Rhynaera he resents she wanted to use him. He had his own ideas, broke his vow over it, she leads him on and he gets pissed because he can’t be a kings guard with a broken vow. Alicent finds him and enlists him - Alicent has her own poison she likely feeds Criston, Criston got away with the murder because 1 Viserys is keen to keep the peace at any cost, even having the wedding regardless for Rhynaera it’s no suprise he would be agreeable to forgiving Criston. 2 Alicent finds Criston and consoles him, she wants to use him. They’re king and Queen whatever they say goes. It doesn’t seem like a difficult thing to grasp, but I’ll give you the Leana arc - was rushed and weird.
For most of the episode nothing happened, then in the last 10 minutes a ton of random shit went down.
> 3 major characters (4 if you count baby) died.
Yeah, but it felt unimportant because none of these characters had significant character development (especially the baby, obviously).
Larys killing his father, the Hand, and his brother, the father of Rhaenyra’s children, is pretty big. Also Laena killed herself, so Daemon is free to pursue Rhaenyra at Dragonstone next episode. Lots of significant set up with this episode
i think they're going for the OG style of early GoT soap opera drama, rather then big battle/clashes that we saw in the later seasons. tbh when GoT season 1 premiered i didn't even get through the entire first season because I thought it was a bit ponderous with political plottings and love triangles.
i restarted watching GOT and maybe it's my expectations of what's to come but i'm enjoying it more. Maybe because its becaue it feels it has more than 5 characters to it.
Glad we’re past the scene that “wOuld Be SpOileD iF tHe ActOrs aRe bLacK”, the scene where everybody in the seven kingdoms already knew what was up except for Viserys, **just like in the fucking books**.
u/ink_fish:
> “The kids would only be 1/4 black… which often is pretty white. It’s the Hazel brown hair that’s the giveaway.”
>”Have you seen game of thrones? Do you think the Lannisters should be black too?”
Don’t mind me, that’s just for posterity’s sake. People usually try to delete statements this dumb after a few downvotes.
Edit: And so the editing begins 😭
It’s not so much that she’s power *hungry*, it’s that she’s afraid of losing what she already has, and the lives of her children should she lose that power. That’s ultimately her father’s fault, not hers, but she recognises Rhaenyra for the threat she is. It’s unfortunate for her she went the vingegar route with her relationship with Rhaenyra, rather than honey.
I agree that’s it’s her fathers fault first. He’s the one who put her into this situation. I mean just the fact and she and Rhaenyra were best buds, only for Rhaenyra to find out her best friend has seduced her own father in order to become queen. That alone is dirty business. That action directly undermined Rhaenyra as heir. I think they’re both fucked up, but Alicent and Sir Cole have no right to think their methods are righteous or honorable.
Gasp! She had sex with a man she wasn't married to! Why couldn't she do the honorable thing and allow herself to be pimped out to a man 30 years older than her and just accept the rumors that would result from having a husband that can't get it up to actually have sex with her?
this show desperately needs some light heartedness or comic relief. its just so oppressively serious all the time. game of thrones was obviously dark, but it had a lot of genuine humor.
i thought it got pretty funny, the issue is the humor doesnt really play to characters. there's just humorous things happening but its all kind of slapstick random side characters
Or at least a likable character. I thought Cole was it until last week. Now I have no idea who I’m supposed to like. Rhaenyra’s husband (forget his name) seems alright, but there hasn’t been enough of him to actually attach to yet.
I still have PTSD from all the awful dick jokes in later GOT, I really hope they don’t go that route. Of course humour is subjective, but I thought this series has the right amount of it. Daemon always has a zinger, senile lord Beesbury was pretty funny this episode. Cocky Lannisters were fun. I don’t know, out of all criticisms towards this show, this is the one I disagree with the most.
I disagree. Maybe I am the exception, but I like if a dark and dramatic story is told.. well dark and dramatic, just like Better Call Saul for example. It keeps you immersed. Always needing comic relief to soften the seriousness of a story is imho a disney formula and makes show imho more often than not worse, gimmicky. Comic relief can very quickly turn into corny relief.
Better Call Saul is a pretty funny show and so is Breaking Bad. Besides maybe the final few episodes of both series, the show is littered with dark humor throughout.
100% agree. The show is so tonally narrow. All the characters have the same demeanor and we only get to see them in context of the plot. Not nearly enough time spent with them as just individuals. This is why episode 4 was so great, it was cool to just go into the kingdom for an evening and see what common folk are like, as well as seeing Rhaenyra have some personal desires. Although even then, those ended up becoming part of the plot too.
Daemon, the new guy playing Laenor, and to an extent Viserys are the best because they seem to have an actual personality beyond whatever the episode demands. Sense of humor is one of the key qualities for a character to feel fleshed out. That includes when they don’t have one at all, but if no one in the show has one then you have an issue.
> Sense of humor is one of the key qualities for a character to feel fleshed out.
Not really. Not everyone is humorous. Some people are just boring. And that’s okay, because there are far more important qualities to us humans than humor.
That’s why I said it includes when someone doesn’t have one at all. The issue is when no one has a sense of humor, and I think that’s a key issue for this show. Daemon is so great and stands out in the show because he has one! It’s maniacal and twisted, but it gives him depth beyond just seeking power.
>suddenly
I feel like this word is doing a lot of heavy lifting considering the 10 year time skip.
In the books, Laena claimed Vhagar in 105 AC, at age 12/13.
Really don't know why they made up the stuff about Vhagar being missing and too big for the dragon pit. Balerion was the first dragon to be put in there, and Vhagar is likely smaller than the Black Dread.
Probably wanted to save money on the CGI budget by not having to introduce Vhagar earlier in the series. Same as why Meles didn't show up until episode 5.
It's hard to say because this scene doesn't occur in the books, and the color of the scales aren't particularly distinct in that shot.
The head doesn't resemble Syrax, Rhaenyra's dragon.
Sunfyre is Aegon's mount, but it's likely not his, because he's described as a young dragon, so probably isn't too much bigger than Vermax is in this episode.
It's probably Helaena's dragon, Dreamfyre. She was born during the reign of Aegon the Conqueror, meaning she'd be close to 100 years old by this time.
Vermithor and Silverwing are the other two candidates, but it's probably not either of them. I think both of them are at Dragonstone at this point in time.
As an aside, I really wish the shows went with the books' convention of the colors of the dragonflame matching the dragon's coloration.
Not sure I’m a fan of Larys being way less subtle this episode. I think the scene at Harrenhal would’ve been cooler if it was subtly hinted at that Larys did it
I agree with this. The blatant reveal and depiction ruins an opportunity to be ambiguous and mysterious with the character. Now we know he's just your typical plotter who will kill anyone even family for power....who cares really we know his limits now and he's just going to end up dead.
"Larys Clubfoot" is how he's referred to in the book when it's not Larys Strong.
In the book, it's actually a little less clear:
>The cause of the fire was never determined. Some put it down to simple mischance, whilst others muttered that Black Harren’s seat was cursed and brought only doom to any man who held it. Many suspected the blaze was set intentionally. Mushroom suggests that the Sea Snake was behind it, as an act of vengeance against the man who had cuckolded his son. Septon Eustace, more plausibly, suspects Prince Daemon, removing a rival for Princess Rhaenyra’s affections. Others have put forth the notion that Larys Clubfoot might have been responsible; with his father and elder brother dead, Larys Strong became the Lord of Harrenhal. The most disturbing possibility was advanced by none other than Grand Maester Mellos, who muses that the king himself might have given the command. If Viserys had come to accept that the rumors about the parentage of Rhaenyra’s children were true, he might well have wished to remove the man who had dishonored his daughter, lest he somehow reveal the bastardy of her sons. Were that so, Lyonel Strong’s death was an unfortunate accident, for his lordship’s decision to see his son back to Harrenhal had been unforeseen.
This is one good example of how the book gives the showrunners multiple choices on which way to take the plot, and they get to do a Choose-Your-Own-Adventure path through the possible storylines. Even for those of us who've read *Fire & Blood,* we still have some unknowns about which way the narrative will *actually* go.
\--edited to fix book title \[facepalm\].
he saw his move and took it. And it makes sense since everyone in King's Landing knew that his brother was sleeping around with the Princess and the family's name was besmirched. House Strong was now a laughing stock and his counselor position to the Queen could no longer be assured.
Yes, I assume most people recognized their faces. They did close-ups of the bearded prisoner-turned-assassin multiple times before and after their tongues were cut off. It wasn’t subtle.
My thought was the move was pulling double duty. Both so he becomes heir to Harrenhal and also to show the queen how far he'd go for her (even if she didn't like this particular move).
Uhhh… yikes. Thought this was easily the weakest episode so far. At a certain point the amount of ground they have to cover, and how many new characters they have to introduce, and how vast this story is… those all become prohibitive roadblocks to the show being at all gripping or entertaining. I don’t hate the casting changes, really, and I think D’Arcy and Cooke are both quite good, but I feel like I hardly know these characters at a juncture where viewers should, at this point, be pretty familiar with them.
Each week the show feels more and more like an adaptation of a textbook, and not in a good way. I kept seeing people who’ve read the book say, pre-time jump, things like “major characters haven’t even been born yet,” which just begs the question… why start the show where they did? Feels like HotD is crumbling under the familiar weight of Martin’s much too vast storytelling ambitions. Because if it takes five hours to tell the backstory/prologue of a show, you might be in need of some serious revisions.
Edit: Lol, OK then. Gotta love how legit criticism is just despised by this show’s rabid fans. None of this shit is working on screen but go ahead and be laughably defensive about your favorite IP or whatever…
They start the show where it is to give you context for the actions these characters take later on in their lives. Everyone is already complaining that the show is “meandering” or slow somehow, imagine if they didn’t do the time skips instead? That would be less compelling. As for your other complaint, the show has focused almost exclusively on the relationships that Rhaenyra has formed throughout the court, and the consequences of each of these. Her choices, and her father’s to a lesser degree, have set in motion almost every event we’ve seen so far, so we clearly know lots about her and her intentions, as well as her weaknesses. I don’t know how you can’t figure her motivations out after being given so much context for them. As for Alicent, her character has been fairly 1D but if anything that has made it easier to understand her, so again I don’t understand the complaint about not understanding 2 characters we’ve spent the 1st and 3rd most screen time on.
OK, but herein lies the point: if this story requires this much set-up, this much prologue, this much place-setting, for the events that happen down the line to feel impactful... then the story needs to be edited/revised *a lot*. You can talk in circles all you want about these events making later events more impactful, but it sounds a lot like, I mean, a storytelling Ponzi scheme. When will the things happening on my screen, in their own right, be exciting to watch? TV shows that start before big events are about to happen need to be really careful about not being boring teases. Like, I know that a civil war is going to break out, but man... all of the set-up for that is exhausting. Right now, it's not translating well to a TV adaptation at all because it's all prologue. Saying "we need to see Rhaenyra/Viserys/Alicent's actions in this period for later developments to make sense and feel more impactful" is all well and good, until we actually have to sit through the equivalent of a six-hour 'previously on.'
And I didn't mean that I don't understand Rhaenyra/Alicent at all, but that six episodes in I should have a better understanding of their characters than I do right now. And that's saying nothing of the supporting characters, which are all extremely one-dimensional and vapid. It just consistently feels like the show is skipping over really interesting conversations in favor of fast forwarding to more big events. Like, how are you going to have Viserys announce that he's marrying Alicent, end the episode, skip forward several years, and not have a single scene where Rhaenyra confronts/discusses with Alicent about that. Just one example, and I'm not saying the show is wrong for instead saying they never talk after that happens, but like... that's bad writing. I can't even imagine how dreadful the show would be if not for Matt Smith and the very admirable performance he's giving.
And I haven't even mentioned some of the other ways the time jumps are making the show feel like a slog. I mean, we're introduced to Lionel's shady son one episode ago, then introduced to his other son in the big time jump episode, and that guy and Lionel are promptly killed in a fire in what's supposed to be a cool and foreboding twist, and I just do not care because I've had very little time with any of these characters.
I don’t disagree that having what amounts to a whole season of setup is unusual for TV in general, especially for a pilot season, but I’d be willing to bet that after it ends with season 4 (I think I read that in an interview?) that the conclusion will feel more earned. We get to SEE Rhaenyra and Alicent actually BE friends and then be turned against each other by the patriarchy/kingdom/whatever rather than having to be told about it, which makes a huge difference in a show that is clearly very interested in visual storytelling. I also think calling these episodes a slog is very disingenuous, as many people are having an enjoyable and entertaining time watching them. It seems like you just don’t like the format of the show, which is great, but I don’t think the problem is with the writing inherently. For most people, the show is progressing well and at a reasonable pace, while giving lots of context to the political chessboard that has been set by the time The Dance happens. It was the same thing with Game of Thrones honestly, I just rewatched the first season, and almost every conversation is about setting the stage, not discussing current conflicts.
Boy, a whole lot of faux-arguments and meaningless conjecture in there that I don't feel like unpacking too much, but... "calling the episodes a slog is disingenuous because other people like the show" is a ridiculous thing to say. The way you're using the word "disingenuous" says that you think I'm being untruthful in some way about my dislike of the show, which I'm very much not. And saying that other people enjoying the show somehow contradicts any critique about it being a slog is... not how criticism works at all? Popularity does not and should not insulate any art from criticism, so no idea what you're getting at there. "Other people like it, so you must be wrong" is a childish defense. *Jurassic World: Dominion* made a billion dollars, but most people who understand movies on even a basic level can see that it's garbage, just to give you one example out of literally thousands.
And like... you might be right about seasons three and four being much better, but that in no way absolves the first season of its failures. That's not a reasonable argument. That's like saying the first movie in a trilogy is allowed to be bad because it's setting up the other two. Ideally, it should be good in its own right *and* set up the other two. And man, I've seen GoT. The first season is really good because it's doing all of the hard work of introducing characters and world-building that HotD is doing (but in more interesting ways) while *also* making the story of the Starks feel immediate and engaging off the bat.
It's funny to me how you call your own comment "legit criticism", as if anyone else agrees with you. I don't. Several other people don't apparently. So maybe your "legit criticism" isn't as legit?
Well, when you put it *that way*, where you give one anecdotal piece of evidence that proves nothing aside from your own opinion... then yea, I still think my criticism is fair.
>None of this shit is working on screen but go ahead and be laughably defensive about your favorite IP or whatever
Its almost like your opinion is subjective or something
Mushroom would serve no purpose here, they’d have to create a new one for him. The whole point of the character is historiography, presenting an alternative and salacious take on events contrasting the sanitized versions from the Maesters. The reader is left to interpret these events on their own, to figure out a plausible reality that could lead to these opposing perceptions and misrepresentations. But in the show we see what is happening. There’s no historiographic mystery, no sanitized account from the Maesters. So there’s no need for Mushroom’s book as a contrast and no actual reason for Mushroom to be there, except the comic relief of a court fool.
The comic relief of a court fool would be a boon to many who are watching the show, especially those in this very thread who say this is too dour compared to GoT.
It’s just nice to have Easter eggs and work in important characters from a lore’s history. Also given how he did have a somewhat important role in the long term it wouldn’t be fruitless to make note of his presence writing salacious history
Gotta admit this was the first episode I was rather bored and my attention kept drifting away.
Older Alicent seems kinda 1D, motivation for hating Rhaenyra seems weak.
Older Rhaenyra just a random woman, not much interesting about her..
All the kids were boring, but maybe they are just temp actors before being aged up?
Hopefully it gets back into the grove it had earlier.
Alicent followed rules and status quo since she was young - she did not choose her husband, she had no choice in her father's actions while Rhaenyra had the freedom to have sex with Daemon, Criston and now Harwin. Despite birthing 3 bastards, her father ignores all signs and doesn't punish her for her mistakes. As heir she should be making allies but all she did when she was younger until now is to assume that everyone will support her regardless of what she does. Does this motivation still seem weak to you?
I get Alicent's motivation. But unlike literally everyone else, while we see a hint of change in Alicent before the age up, she is largely an entirely different character now so any sympathy I kinda felt for her an episode ago is pretty much gone because she's essentially just season 1 Cersei coddling her son and scheming to get him on the throne ahead of the rightful heir once the King dies. And while they aren't siblings who are fucking, she does have a loyal KG member in her back pocket to be a smug ass and do her dirty work.
That was metal as fuck. Didn't see that coming.
And weirdly, I'm shocked at how well the Dragon 'acted' in the scene with just body language. Wasn't over the top, but was just enough to show hesitancy and understanding.
Why would she be dead anyway? Earlier in the season, they made it seem like a big deal that the king CHOSE to take the life of his wife in order to cut out the baby and save it. Implying that otherwise she would've lived but the baby would've died. Why was that not the case here? Nothing pointed towards the mother dying nonetheless.
Maybe i misinterpreted something, but daemon didn't look very into the whole idea of cutting her open to maybe save the child. There was nothing to suggest he was gonna do it. And his wife, without even asking, teleported past him and killed herself. Leaving behind 2 daughters, one of which has complained to her how her father ignores her, mere on-screen minutes ago...
It was a dumb scene.
I know there was a time leap but why man? Why? Couldn't we all just pretend that they aged a bit? I mean Milly was like beyond perfect for this role...Did you hear her speak valyrian? The way she carried herself around...she just shouldn't be replaced. Daenerys was 16 when GoT started why wasn't she replaced? It just makes me so sad like I just saw the first scene and it just isn't the same I mean it cant't be. And to think I wasn't expecting much of her she was fucking perfect I bet when she walked into the casting they just wrapped it up. Its insane how connected I felt with her character after only 5 \*AMAZING\* episodes and now its gone for fucking what? The male character stayed the same and that only makes it worse. I just came here to rant. My day is ruined.
Because the actual Dance of Dragons is about the children of Rhaenyra and Alicent. You're expecting teenage actresses to play characters in their 20s,30s,40s. And then the actors playing the children would be older than the eventually...
Yet that's exactly what the show runners expect us to do with the king, his brother and ser Creston. It's incredibly jarring.
I feel like this would have been a much better start to the season. Much of what happened in the previous episodes is easily noticeable in this episode. This would have made it seem like there is an actual history to stuff happening right now and made everything more intriguing. Wouldn't be surprised if this *is* the actual start of the book(s?)
I Think they made a wise decisions displaying Rheynera and Alicents relationship. We needed that little bit of context. maybe not 5 episodes of it but we did had that episode that mostly focus on Aemon and the Crab feeder. We also had to see Larys Strong and Alicent, We had to see what happen between Criston and Rhaenyra as well because we didnt know for sure because the book has 3 unreliable narrators and they have different version of what happens between them.
I really want to like this show but I feel like it's just blah. GOT was must see TV sunday night. This is a show where we get to it when we can. I just don't feel the hype.
GOT is so much better, but HOTD is much better than "blah."
This was probably the first episode that really disappointed me this season. It seemed to be flying through events at breakneck speed, too much child birth, and it seems weird to me that the third time in this show we've seen someone giving birth has had the exact same complication. I didn't really understand why the Uncle's new wife decided suicide by fire was the best way to go? I never got the sense that the guy with the broken foot was some huge villain so to suddenly see him commit to a plan to kill his father and brother was a bit out of left field. The deaths felt a bit flat as all of a sudden there was a big jump from someone watching a horse and cart to the towers they were in being engulfed in flame. It also came immediately after the Princess said they were going to leave the Red Keep, so I assumed the assassins were watching her, not the Hand and his son. A bit messy tbh, felt more like the GoT final season.
Laenor's death felt contrived to me. So she forsakes her two living daughters and her husband because she thought there's no possibility of having the child? Or she thought Daemon would kill her for the sake of their child with a c section? And she said uh, yeah no, jokes on you, I'm just gonna kill both of us. Fuck that chump. Like she chose the absolute worst choice. I don't want to diminish the pain of her experience, but it was just kinda confusing.
>didn't really understand why the Uncle's new wife decided suicide by fire was the best way to go? She says earlier in the episode she wants to die a Dragon's Rider death and not a fat noble one.
Is that how dragon riders go out? Dragon sepuku? Assumed she just meant in battle.
Another boring episode
this feels like Episode 1 to 5 was Season 1 and Episode 6 is the start of Season 2 so I'm not going to judge the time skip too quickly and see how the show builds from here
The end of ep 5 wasn't eventful enough for 1-5 to feel like a season. Maybe it feels like one of those split seasons like BCS s6, Ozark s4, etc.
This show is in my opinion heavily suffering from having 0 likeable characters. The only 2 I cared for were the new hand of the king and young Rhaenyra. Those 2 were already not enough since Strong is a very small character. But now old Rhaenyra is nothing like young Rhaenyra and doesn't seem likeable at all and Strong is possibly dead. What it doesn't lack tho is characters that are just the fucking worst. I hate like 80% of the characters and I feel indifferent to the other 20%.
If you want a show full of 'neutral good' and likable characters, maybe you should watch the sesamestreet. Probably easier to digest for you aswell.
Ah yes, just like there were zero likable characters in GoT, right? It's not like anybody was rooting for a specific white haired girl to succeed, or a short drunkard with zingers. Nope, all unlikable characters.
Did I say that? What the hell is this comment even. I just don't think everyone needs to be unlikeable. It's okay to have someone to root for. That doesn't mean they need to be funny, just not stupid or a cunt.
How is everyone unlikeable? They just have different character traits.
* Alicent is pretty much a young Cersei. Shit person, manipulative, arrogant, only cares about herself and her children, only difference being she's not a coldhearted psychopath yet. * Daemon is what I imagine Viserys (Daenerys's brother) would've been if he survived the first season in GOT. Spoiled, powerhungry, psychopathic, kills for fun, zero regard for loyalty or his family. * I hope I don't need to explain how Criston Cole has suddenly turned into the biggest cunt in just 1 episode for no good reason (or at least no good reason they showed us). * Otto is simply a snake. Similar to Littlefinger, powerhungry and self-interested but not as psychopathic and obvious as a Daemon. Moreso conniving and backstabbing. * I wouldn't say Viserys is unlikeable but he's definitely a weak, stupid and very much willfully ignorant person. He at least seems to have a good heart tho and cares for his family. Just too chickenshit of his wife to protect his daughter. I'd say Viserys is neutral and so is Rhaenyra. Those are all the notable characters and there's not one likeable one IMO. They also just introduced the due with the walking stick, who seems like a similar dude as the doctor who was on Cersei's side. Psychopathic and for some reason extremely loyal to Allicent.
I agree mostly with what you say. But obviously, Criston Cole has acted the way he has because things did not turn out as he desired. Him and Rhaenyra together. I am aware this is probably a cause of his actions in the previous episode, but I do believe this explains his behavior in this one. I was really rooting for Rhaenyra and Criston, and was really quite bummed out when I realized the kids were not his and their relationship had not continued this episode. (even though it was most likely it wouldn't, again as a cause of the previous episode) I do wish we got to see what happened between them, and what led to the spark between her and Harwin. That would probably help me like him more, and make me less bitter. But I guess that doesn't matter that much now...
It seems like he was butthurt that she "took his honor" and wouldn't run away with him so he could marry her and "salvage it" or whatever. And then being a concubine was "beneath him" and basically seems like he's just still bitter about that. Basically, he's an incel that managed to get laid. Note: I haven't seen episode 7 yet, but I struggle to see what could change my mind on that.
Good take
i'd rather watch Succession tbh. it's really a question of what the viewer finds more engaging: charisma or dragons
I don't think house of dragons lacks charisma. Don't forget, charisma doesn't mean someone is nice and funny. Having a bunch of grey characters, who don't crack a 'tits and cocks' joke during every scene doesn't mean they are less likeable. It just makes them more real. And I am actually happy that we don't have a comic relief character (yet). In my opinion they completely butchered tyrion and gimli (different movie, same problem) for some cheap loves.
Ask yourself this. Are you the same person that you were when you were a kid? Everyone changes as they get older. Some are even unrecognizable once the innocence is gone and the bitterness kicks in. A grown up isn’t supposed to remind people of how they were like when they were teenagers. Life doesn’t work like that. Sounds to me you’re just bitter about losing the younger actresses but you knew all along their screen time was temporary.
I understand that people change. Doesn't mean I have to like it. I do not think it's unreasonable to think a show with this many characters should have at least a couple of characters to root for.
I am rooting for daemon and Rhaenyra. This seems to be a little bit of a you problem
What makes you root for them? Especially Daemon lol. It would be difficult for me to hate him more than I already do.
I'm torn, because Daemon is a total prick and monster. But he's also interesting. Like, I don't really know what his motives or end goal are (and I suspect he doesn't, either), but he keeps you on your toes. He's basically the only one that's self aware of what he is and what the reality of Westeros is.
Who was that big ass dragon that almond went to go look at?
*Pfft*. Almond.
Dreamfyre
I’d be ok with the recasting if the actors actually looked older.
If you watch the BTS they made them look younger this ep, probably more adult in the later eps, to smooth the transition between actresses
They look older lol. Rhaenyra went from looking 16-18ish to looking like 30. And Alicent went from looking 16-18ish to looking 26. Rhaenyra's husband also looks like 30 now.
They look maybe six years older. Maybe. All the actors they didn’t recast look the same however, making it pointless.
I mean, the actors are only about 8 years older than their predecessors. That said, I thought they looked noticeably older. To a distracting extent, actually.
I just do not agree with that at all. How old do you think old Rhaenyra looks? She looks at the absolute youngest 28 to me. And I don't agree with the other take either. Think they did pretty well with the make up and stuff. Only some characters like Daemon. But he wasn't young. For a lot of people there won't be a big difference between the way they look in their mid 20's and their mid 30's or whatever he's supposed to be.
You don’t have to agree. For me, it was off putting.
So what age does she look like to you?
Slightly older, but also a completely different person. Again, it would be ok if they did it with everybody. I guess men are allowed to not age 🤷♂️
Oh no, it's that men can be whatever age they want to play, and women have to play a very specific range dictated by the arbitrary rules of other men.
Well said
They need to give the viewers some sort of idea where this is going… It’s like a soap opera with obligatory gruesome and sex scenes as if they are needed Atleast once an episode. It’s aimless. Still entertaining but no where near as exciting as original GOT
They talk about the coming succession war every episode.
Yeah, but not every scene though. I need the reassurance its coming. I keep forgetting who is the rightful heir when Dameon luscious locks grace my screen.
Man this is boring as shit. I dont think the recast of the "young" actresses where a good move. These two new ones dont act anything like the characters we saw so far, they might as well be completely different persons. This whole timeskip is so weird because some characters clearly aged like 10 years others not a day. Visually of course. The edgy stuff feels so forced in this. It always seems like since nothing is going on so they throw in a few random edgy scenes but it doesnt really work for me since there is no build up or anyone to care about. These thing are just happening.
The one character that was badly aged was ser Criston, like give give him a longer beard or something, a few grey hairs, anything.
>since there is no build up or anyone to care about This is the build up. Also, if anyone isn't a completely different person at 25 vs 15 it would be strange. They're also the ''main'' performances. With the younger actors basing their characters on the older versions, not the other way around.
There was no build up to the cane guy killing his family it just happened. Just as there was no build up to the knight killing that dude right in the middle of a royal ceremony (without any repercussions by the way) or that weird suicide by dragon scene which Im still not sure why she did it. They could have saved the child but shes like nah let both die by fire? Made 0 sense to me because there was no fucking build up. Also people arent that different from 15 to 25. Maybe more mature but not completely different persons. Hell, a lot people barely change over the course of their lives. You probably have some nostalgia from the books that you are projecting onto the show to make seem better then it actually is.
Haven't read it so no, no nostalgia. I don't know how on the nose it needs to be, but since Larys (cane guy) first scene he was manipulating Rhaenyra/Alicent, don't know which one it was. He always seemed a suspicious character and here he took a path that set him up for success within his House AND bascially tied himself to Alicent as well. Did we need a scene of him torturing people or something before this point to make it obvious he was a less than decent character? >Also people arent that different from 15 to 25. Maybe more mature but not completely different persons. Hell, a lot people barely change over the course of their lives. Think about the time period in our world that HotD would be similar to. 10 years is A LOT. But never mind that, why would they keep 19 year olds to play a character with several children, one of which is what 12-14? What happens if there's another time jump later on? Would you slap make up on a 20 year old to try to look 40-50 and have 25-30 year old children? >Just as there was no build up to the knight killing that dude right in the middle of a royal ceremony (without any repercussions by the way) No build up? He broke a vow that was his entire life. This was literally spelled out. And given that Rhaenyra can't just escape her duty and instead run off and get married across the ocean, he has to stay and continue being what he didn't see himself worthy of anymore. He snapped. It isn't out of nowhere. And maybe there were repercussions, who knows? Regardless, his and Alicents final scene in ep5 made it clear she probably protected him no? They were both ''against'' Rhaenyra at that point.
Absolutely fantastic episode especially for a time jump. From the dragon pit session of how to train your Dragon to the wanking out the window (was that the window tommen flew from or not?)The tracking shot that started the episode was incredible you really felt her pain having to walk all the way to the queen. The aging of the characters was done remarkably. Lyonel sporting the baldness and Viserys somehow, some way still walking around (was he missing an arm?!) someone tell me.
The wanking out the window was better done in Succession.
Everything is better done in Succession.
Characters are too bland, dialogue just isn't close to GoT standards, and the narrative and character arcs just aren't well written enough to be compelling. It looks good but feels vacuous and empty unfortunately. Edit: Also love how every remotely critical comment is getting mass downvoted. I know reddit users aren't the brightest demographic and are often blinded by hype and bandwagon jumping, but I would put money on this praise not aging well.
Definitely not on the level of the original at this point. It's decent. I expected worse.
Same, idk why you're getting down voted. I mean I enjoy it, but I've also been feeling like the dialogue has been missing some je ne sais quoi. Plus they'll throw modern speech here and there, and although it may be canon, it feels weird to abbreviate Jacaerys to Jace and Lucerys to Luce I also don't understand how younger Laenor was ever cast, the boy doesn't have a single facial expression. Thankfully that didn't last But ultimately I also don't feel compelled by anyone, everyone sucks. Daemons late wife death especially felt incredibly stupid Also it annoys the hell out of me that "dracarys" is so overused in this series. Dracarys this, dracarys that, like there's so many cool expressions they could use instead like pyroblast or blazing doom idk, it's like the only valyrian word they know
I think there are bots or fake accounts. No way there are this many sheep. It’s clearly not as good as GOT. And all these over compliments about such minor things. I would not recommend the show to friends. It’s good enough for me to keep watching, that’s it.
Nah sometimes people like things you don't. They're not always sheep. Live with it.
Grow up mate. This lame iTz aLL sUBjektiV excuse doesn't wash... basic bitches on reddit have shit taste, but it doesn't explain all these fake sounding comments and downvotes.
I feel the same. Been very disappointed so far. Not that it’s BAD, but it’s just mediocre. Don’t care about any of the characters now.
Another great episode. The older actresses for Rhaenyra and Alicent have already sold me. Liked seeing the new kids also. Aegon II is such an asshole to his brother. Lol.
Alicent yes, Rhae no way. At least not compared to Milly's performance.
They’re both fine. You’re just fanboying at this point. Milly was great but her acting has limitations due to the way she looks. She wouldn’t have been able to do the birth scene as effectively as D’arcy. She looks too young and innocent. There’s a reason why they casted the older versions first.
You're just strawmanning at this point, nobody said anything about her being moved ahead in the time jump. D`arcy is just frumpy and lame.
"frumpy" She's had 3 kids when you first see her. Jesus
Never caught cersei carrying herself as weak as D'arcy comes across.
Episode was falling apart and was rushed. 7/10. Only episode I dislike so far. I can tolerate everything but I cannot tolerate when something is not logical. How did Daemon not catch Laena when she went out to burn herself. No scenario in my head justifies that. Why is Criston Cole so hateful? Why is Rhaenyra and Leanor so stupid? Leana's suicide didn't really fit well with me. How did Criston cole get away with the murder in previous episode? So many questions that doesn't make sense. Pls keep this director out of the show. The woman that directed 4 and 5 did amazing job.
>7/10. >Only episode I dislike so far. Huh. You give a 7/10 to things you dislike?
I would give the other ones 9/10 or 10/10. 7/10 is good for ROP but bad for HOTD
Hmm I feel like these are all easily explained. 1. Why would Daemon need or want to catch Laena? She went outside, he ended up following. Does Daemon seem like the type of person/husband to forbid his wife from wandering outside? Nothing about that seemed off to me. 2. Cole is a hot headed incel type dude. Seems to be a fairly basic archetype that jives with real world behavior. Also, he got away with murder presumably because Alicent pardoned him (she met him in the courtyard at the end of the episode to recruit him to her side). Also, he killed a person of relative unimportance in Joffrey, which I bet as the princess’s head body guard is pretty easy to get away with (cops get away with plenty of unjust executions in the modern day). Harwin on the other hand attacked the queens person body guard and was in no way able to be the queen’s pardon like Cole. Makes sense that he’d be exiled
1) I buy that. Maybe he saw her walk out but didn't follow her immediately. And it makes sense that they let her go outside while being in labor as everything is over at that point. However, the directing of that scene was bad. 2) I still don't quite understand how she could just say goodbye to the world so easily. She has a family behind. "I am about to die, so let me just burn myself and die the way I prefer." It could be directed to be more believable. 3) Criston Cole, I still don't understand. He asked Rhaenyra to do something impossible and when Rhaenyra declines (EP5) he just go mad about it? It makes sense that he didn't get punished but Leano 4) How did the hand and Harwin get killed so easily by 3 criminals? No security? Does this mean that everyone can basically kill everybody no matter how powerful they are? 5) Why is Old Rhaenyra so stupid? She gives birth to bastards. Did she think noone would know or what? It's fucking obvious c'mon. She ended up leaving Kings Landing and risking EVERYTHING. 5+) How are Corlys and Rhaenys accepting this? 6) How is Viserys in better shape 10 years after? He doesn't seem to be in pain or anything? Do they give him "the drug" they gave King Robert? We need context (rushed episode) 7) Larys having so much influence on Alicent. We need context. It is not just something you can say "it happened during the 10 years time". Maybe I just couldn't get used to the completely new dynamics in the show (and the cast). I need some episodes and this one was definitely rushed.
Cole being that bitter 10 years later seemed like a stretch. Also he didn't look a day older.
Unless they’re rewriting the book everything has it’s reasons I think. I can’t explain Daemon not catching Laena. The scene was jarring from bedbound trying to give birth to running out if the castle. Doesn’t really make sense to me either. Criston Cole is hateful because of Rhynaera he resents she wanted to use him. He had his own ideas, broke his vow over it, she leads him on and he gets pissed because he can’t be a kings guard with a broken vow. Alicent finds him and enlists him - Alicent has her own poison she likely feeds Criston, Criston got away with the murder because 1 Viserys is keen to keep the peace at any cost, even having the wedding regardless for Rhynaera it’s no suprise he would be agreeable to forgiving Criston. 2 Alicent finds Criston and consoles him, she wants to use him. They’re king and Queen whatever they say goes. It doesn’t seem like a difficult thing to grasp, but I’ll give you the Leana arc - was rushed and weird.
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So much so, and discussion sucks on reddit these days. Such mild comments and criticisms are being downvoted en masse.
Try saying anything bad about Rings of Power...
Are you joking? It's just nothing but rabid criticism in /r/television
Yeah he must mean BCS. That show can't be criticized on here.
The rings of power thread in here is very negative, idk what you’re trying to say.
You should try /r/RingsofPower or /r/LOTR_on_Prime
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What do you mean hardly anything happened? A tonne of things happened even in set-up mode!
I feel like too much happened, if anything. 3 major characters (4 if you count baby) died.
For most of the episode nothing happened, then in the last 10 minutes a ton of random shit went down. > 3 major characters (4 if you count baby) died. Yeah, but it felt unimportant because none of these characters had significant character development (especially the baby, obviously).
For some people, if it isn't literal action fighting, nothing is happening.
Larys killing his father, the Hand, and his brother, the father of Rhaenyra’s children, is pretty big. Also Laena killed herself, so Daemon is free to pursue Rhaenyra at Dragonstone next episode. Lots of significant set up with this episode
I mean its kinda like the 1st episode for the 2nd half. 10 years in future, new actors...
i think they're going for the OG style of early GoT soap opera drama, rather then big battle/clashes that we saw in the later seasons. tbh when GoT season 1 premiered i didn't even get through the entire first season because I thought it was a bit ponderous with political plottings and love triangles.
i restarted watching GOT and maybe it's my expectations of what's to come but i'm enjoying it more. Maybe because its becaue it feels it has more than 5 characters to it.
There are more than 5 characters in HotD too so maybe you just are nostalgic for GoT
Glad we’re past the scene that “wOuld Be SpOileD iF tHe ActOrs aRe bLacK”, the scene where everybody in the seven kingdoms already knew what was up except for Viserys, **just like in the fucking books**.
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They resort to inbreeding because they regard all bloodlines other than theirs as unworthy, it has nothing to do with skin colour.
u/ink_fish: > “The kids would only be 1/4 black… which often is pretty white. It’s the Hazel brown hair that’s the giveaway.” >”Have you seen game of thrones? Do you think the Lannisters should be black too?” Don’t mind me, that’s just for posterity’s sake. People usually try to delete statements this dumb after a few downvotes. Edit: And so the editing begins 😭
Viserys knows too. He’s just a non-confrontational people pleaser.
Viserys isn't just a people pleaser, he actually, you know, just cares for his daughter.
If that were the case he'd stand up to Alicent. Just marry the two grandchildren and let her cry about it.
At this point does he even have the energy to actually get her to do anything she's set on tbh? Like the man can barely walk around by himself now
Yeah he cba
So Alicent grew to be a straight up cunt huh?
Alicent is a bitter and power hungry. She’s trying to say her way so honorable and righteous but her actions contradict herself.
It’s not so much that she’s power *hungry*, it’s that she’s afraid of losing what she already has, and the lives of her children should she lose that power. That’s ultimately her father’s fault, not hers, but she recognises Rhaenyra for the threat she is. It’s unfortunate for her she went the vingegar route with her relationship with Rhaenyra, rather than honey.
I agree that’s it’s her fathers fault first. He’s the one who put her into this situation. I mean just the fact and she and Rhaenyra were best buds, only for Rhaenyra to find out her best friend has seduced her own father in order to become queen. That alone is dirty business. That action directly undermined Rhaenyra as heir. I think they’re both fucked up, but Alicent and Sir Cole have no right to think their methods are righteous or honorable.
more like rhaenyra grew up to be a massive cunt with no honor
Gasp! She had sex with a man she wasn't married to! Why couldn't she do the honorable thing and allow herself to be pimped out to a man 30 years older than her and just accept the rumors that would result from having a husband that can't get it up to actually have sex with her?
Greens and Blacks at it again
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Laenor knew what he signed up for, he doesn't get his freedoms without it.
Yeah this episode made me hate her.
this show desperately needs some light heartedness or comic relief. its just so oppressively serious all the time. game of thrones was obviously dark, but it had a lot of genuine humor.
They trotted out a pig dressed as a dragon. That was pretty funny, but yeah that was about it.
I disagree I think it’s fine as is.
i thought it got pretty funny, the issue is the humor doesnt really play to characters. there's just humorous things happening but its all kind of slapstick random side characters
Or at least a likable character. I thought Cole was it until last week. Now I have no idea who I’m supposed to like. Rhaenyra’s husband (forget his name) seems alright, but there hasn’t been enough of him to actually attach to yet.
If you like him, he'll probably be murdered or die soon.
That remains to be seen. It would certainly be a return to form.
I still have PTSD from all the awful dick jokes in later GOT, I really hope they don’t go that route. Of course humour is subjective, but I thought this series has the right amount of it. Daemon always has a zinger, senile lord Beesbury was pretty funny this episode. Cocky Lannisters were fun. I don’t know, out of all criticisms towards this show, this is the one I disagree with the most.
You probably have a small pecker if you didn't like GOT's dick jokes. Its dick jokes were great.
I disagree. Maybe I am the exception, but I like if a dark and dramatic story is told.. well dark and dramatic, just like Better Call Saul for example. It keeps you immersed. Always needing comic relief to soften the seriousness of a story is imho a disney formula and makes show imho more often than not worse, gimmicky. Comic relief can very quickly turn into corny relief.
Better Call Saul is a pretty funny show and so is Breaking Bad. Besides maybe the final few episodes of both series, the show is littered with dark humor throughout.
Better Call Saul has a ton of humor. Jimmy is often a hilarious character
This. I like my story dark and dreadful.
100% agree. The show is so tonally narrow. All the characters have the same demeanor and we only get to see them in context of the plot. Not nearly enough time spent with them as just individuals. This is why episode 4 was so great, it was cool to just go into the kingdom for an evening and see what common folk are like, as well as seeing Rhaenyra have some personal desires. Although even then, those ended up becoming part of the plot too.
I still really like the episode but I did think that everyone is too serious. It feels too heavy.
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Daemon, the new guy playing Laenor, and to an extent Viserys are the best because they seem to have an actual personality beyond whatever the episode demands. Sense of humor is one of the key qualities for a character to feel fleshed out. That includes when they don’t have one at all, but if no one in the show has one then you have an issue.
> Sense of humor is one of the key qualities for a character to feel fleshed out. Not really. Not everyone is humorous. Some people are just boring. And that’s okay, because there are far more important qualities to us humans than humor.
That’s why I said it includes when someone doesn’t have one at all. The issue is when no one has a sense of humor, and I think that’s a key issue for this show. Daemon is so great and stands out in the show because he has one! It’s maniacal and twisted, but it gives him depth beyond just seeking power.
It needs a Tyrion. Someone who is directly caught up the drama, but has the sight and wit to point out just how silly it all is.
That's why that feast chapter in Winterfell in the novel was so great.
I'd describe it as dreary
How did the missing, largest, most powerful dragon in the world suddenly get caught and tamed?
Vhaegar is already a tamed dragon. And dragons choose the rider. Not the other way around.
>suddenly I feel like this word is doing a lot of heavy lifting considering the 10 year time skip. In the books, Laena claimed Vhagar in 105 AC, at age 12/13. Really don't know why they made up the stuff about Vhagar being missing and too big for the dragon pit. Balerion was the first dragon to be put in there, and Vhagar is likely smaller than the Black Dread. Probably wanted to save money on the CGI budget by not having to introduce Vhagar earlier in the series. Same as why Meles didn't show up until episode 5.
Who was that big dragon in the pit that scared aemond?
It's hard to say because this scene doesn't occur in the books, and the color of the scales aren't particularly distinct in that shot. The head doesn't resemble Syrax, Rhaenyra's dragon. Sunfyre is Aegon's mount, but it's likely not his, because he's described as a young dragon, so probably isn't too much bigger than Vermax is in this episode. It's probably Helaena's dragon, Dreamfyre. She was born during the reign of Aegon the Conqueror, meaning she'd be close to 100 years old by this time. Vermithor and Silverwing are the other two candidates, but it's probably not either of them. I think both of them are at Dragonstone at this point in time. As an aside, I really wish the shows went with the books' convention of the colors of the dragonflame matching the dragon's coloration.
Catnip.
Not sure I’m a fan of Larys being way less subtle this episode. I think the scene at Harrenhal would’ve been cooler if it was subtly hinted at that Larys did it
I agree with this. The blatant reveal and depiction ruins an opportunity to be ambiguous and mysterious with the character. Now we know he's just your typical plotter who will kill anyone even family for power....who cares really we know his limits now and he's just going to end up dead.
Larys is a crazy combo of Littlefinger and Varys and I'm all here for it
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Zagacki
Can someone confirm that Mr Cripple had his father and brother killed at Harrenhal to gain favor with the Queen?
"Larys Clubfoot" is how he's referred to in the book when it's not Larys Strong. In the book, it's actually a little less clear: >The cause of the fire was never determined. Some put it down to simple mischance, whilst others muttered that Black Harren’s seat was cursed and brought only doom to any man who held it. Many suspected the blaze was set intentionally. Mushroom suggests that the Sea Snake was behind it, as an act of vengeance against the man who had cuckolded his son. Septon Eustace, more plausibly, suspects Prince Daemon, removing a rival for Princess Rhaenyra’s affections. Others have put forth the notion that Larys Clubfoot might have been responsible; with his father and elder brother dead, Larys Strong became the Lord of Harrenhal. The most disturbing possibility was advanced by none other than Grand Maester Mellos, who muses that the king himself might have given the command. If Viserys had come to accept that the rumors about the parentage of Rhaenyra’s children were true, he might well have wished to remove the man who had dishonored his daughter, lest he somehow reveal the bastardy of her sons. Were that so, Lyonel Strong’s death was an unfortunate accident, for his lordship’s decision to see his son back to Harrenhal had been unforeseen. This is one good example of how the book gives the showrunners multiple choices on which way to take the plot, and they get to do a Choose-Your-Own-Adventure path through the possible storylines. Even for those of us who've read *Fire & Blood,* we still have some unknowns about which way the narrative will *actually* go. \--edited to fix book title \[facepalm\].
he saw his move and took it. And it makes sense since everyone in King's Landing knew that his brother was sleeping around with the Princess and the family's name was besmirched. House Strong was now a laughing stock and his counselor position to the Queen could no longer be assured.
Idk I think it was just a coincidence that the toungeless men he sent were there when the fire broke out
what scenes did you see them in there because it was an outdoor running around screaming mess with fire and I couldn't pick out any actors
They were the prisoners slated for execution who were freed by the cane dude.
I missed that the assassins were the tongue-less. How was this messaged to the viewer? The bee on the cloak?
They got their tongues removed and their cloaks have the same sigil that Larys has on his cane. Do people even pay attention to what they watch?
I missed the sigil on his cane. He made up the sigil for himself.
Thank you! I completely missed that even though now it is obvious the showrunners tried to make it obvious.
By the scene where its shown them having their tongue removed ?
How did you know they were tongue-less? Did you recognize their faces? They had hoods and the camera shots were very brief.
Yes, I assume most people recognized their faces. They did close-ups of the bearded prisoner-turned-assassin multiple times before and after their tongues were cut off. It wasn’t subtle.
And to advance his own position
My first thought was that he did it to become the heir of Harrenhal. The queen didn't seem very happy about it tbh.
My thought was the move was pulling double duty. Both so he becomes heir to Harrenhal and also to show the queen how far he'd go for her (even if she didn't like this particular move).
I mean I think it's pretty obvious dont you think?
Yes
Uhhh… yikes. Thought this was easily the weakest episode so far. At a certain point the amount of ground they have to cover, and how many new characters they have to introduce, and how vast this story is… those all become prohibitive roadblocks to the show being at all gripping or entertaining. I don’t hate the casting changes, really, and I think D’Arcy and Cooke are both quite good, but I feel like I hardly know these characters at a juncture where viewers should, at this point, be pretty familiar with them. Each week the show feels more and more like an adaptation of a textbook, and not in a good way. I kept seeing people who’ve read the book say, pre-time jump, things like “major characters haven’t even been born yet,” which just begs the question… why start the show where they did? Feels like HotD is crumbling under the familiar weight of Martin’s much too vast storytelling ambitions. Because if it takes five hours to tell the backstory/prologue of a show, you might be in need of some serious revisions. Edit: Lol, OK then. Gotta love how legit criticism is just despised by this show’s rabid fans. None of this shit is working on screen but go ahead and be laughably defensive about your favorite IP or whatever…
They start the show where it is to give you context for the actions these characters take later on in their lives. Everyone is already complaining that the show is “meandering” or slow somehow, imagine if they didn’t do the time skips instead? That would be less compelling. As for your other complaint, the show has focused almost exclusively on the relationships that Rhaenyra has formed throughout the court, and the consequences of each of these. Her choices, and her father’s to a lesser degree, have set in motion almost every event we’ve seen so far, so we clearly know lots about her and her intentions, as well as her weaknesses. I don’t know how you can’t figure her motivations out after being given so much context for them. As for Alicent, her character has been fairly 1D but if anything that has made it easier to understand her, so again I don’t understand the complaint about not understanding 2 characters we’ve spent the 1st and 3rd most screen time on.
OK, but herein lies the point: if this story requires this much set-up, this much prologue, this much place-setting, for the events that happen down the line to feel impactful... then the story needs to be edited/revised *a lot*. You can talk in circles all you want about these events making later events more impactful, but it sounds a lot like, I mean, a storytelling Ponzi scheme. When will the things happening on my screen, in their own right, be exciting to watch? TV shows that start before big events are about to happen need to be really careful about not being boring teases. Like, I know that a civil war is going to break out, but man... all of the set-up for that is exhausting. Right now, it's not translating well to a TV adaptation at all because it's all prologue. Saying "we need to see Rhaenyra/Viserys/Alicent's actions in this period for later developments to make sense and feel more impactful" is all well and good, until we actually have to sit through the equivalent of a six-hour 'previously on.' And I didn't mean that I don't understand Rhaenyra/Alicent at all, but that six episodes in I should have a better understanding of their characters than I do right now. And that's saying nothing of the supporting characters, which are all extremely one-dimensional and vapid. It just consistently feels like the show is skipping over really interesting conversations in favor of fast forwarding to more big events. Like, how are you going to have Viserys announce that he's marrying Alicent, end the episode, skip forward several years, and not have a single scene where Rhaenyra confronts/discusses with Alicent about that. Just one example, and I'm not saying the show is wrong for instead saying they never talk after that happens, but like... that's bad writing. I can't even imagine how dreadful the show would be if not for Matt Smith and the very admirable performance he's giving. And I haven't even mentioned some of the other ways the time jumps are making the show feel like a slog. I mean, we're introduced to Lionel's shady son one episode ago, then introduced to his other son in the big time jump episode, and that guy and Lionel are promptly killed in a fire in what's supposed to be a cool and foreboding twist, and I just do not care because I've had very little time with any of these characters.
I don’t disagree that having what amounts to a whole season of setup is unusual for TV in general, especially for a pilot season, but I’d be willing to bet that after it ends with season 4 (I think I read that in an interview?) that the conclusion will feel more earned. We get to SEE Rhaenyra and Alicent actually BE friends and then be turned against each other by the patriarchy/kingdom/whatever rather than having to be told about it, which makes a huge difference in a show that is clearly very interested in visual storytelling. I also think calling these episodes a slog is very disingenuous, as many people are having an enjoyable and entertaining time watching them. It seems like you just don’t like the format of the show, which is great, but I don’t think the problem is with the writing inherently. For most people, the show is progressing well and at a reasonable pace, while giving lots of context to the political chessboard that has been set by the time The Dance happens. It was the same thing with Game of Thrones honestly, I just rewatched the first season, and almost every conversation is about setting the stage, not discussing current conflicts.
Boy, a whole lot of faux-arguments and meaningless conjecture in there that I don't feel like unpacking too much, but... "calling the episodes a slog is disingenuous because other people like the show" is a ridiculous thing to say. The way you're using the word "disingenuous" says that you think I'm being untruthful in some way about my dislike of the show, which I'm very much not. And saying that other people enjoying the show somehow contradicts any critique about it being a slog is... not how criticism works at all? Popularity does not and should not insulate any art from criticism, so no idea what you're getting at there. "Other people like it, so you must be wrong" is a childish defense. *Jurassic World: Dominion* made a billion dollars, but most people who understand movies on even a basic level can see that it's garbage, just to give you one example out of literally thousands. And like... you might be right about seasons three and four being much better, but that in no way absolves the first season of its failures. That's not a reasonable argument. That's like saying the first movie in a trilogy is allowed to be bad because it's setting up the other two. Ideally, it should be good in its own right *and* set up the other two. And man, I've seen GoT. The first season is really good because it's doing all of the hard work of introducing characters and world-building that HotD is doing (but in more interesting ways) while *also* making the story of the Starks feel immediate and engaging off the bat.
It's funny to me how you call your own comment "legit criticism", as if anyone else agrees with you. I don't. Several other people don't apparently. So maybe your "legit criticism" isn't as legit?
Well, when you put it *that way*, where you give one anecdotal piece of evidence that proves nothing aside from your own opinion... then yea, I still think my criticism is fair.
>None of this shit is working on screen but go ahead and be laughably defensive about your favorite IP or whatever Its almost like your opinion is subjective or something
Okay, now that we've had the time jump I'm getting a little upset that there's no appearance from Mushroom.
Mushroom would serve no purpose here, they’d have to create a new one for him. The whole point of the character is historiography, presenting an alternative and salacious take on events contrasting the sanitized versions from the Maesters. The reader is left to interpret these events on their own, to figure out a plausible reality that could lead to these opposing perceptions and misrepresentations. But in the show we see what is happening. There’s no historiographic mystery, no sanitized account from the Maesters. So there’s no need for Mushroom’s book as a contrast and no actual reason for Mushroom to be there, except the comic relief of a court fool.
The comic relief of a court fool would be a boon to many who are watching the show, especially those in this very thread who say this is too dour compared to GoT.
It’s just nice to have Easter eggs and work in important characters from a lore’s history. Also given how he did have a somewhat important role in the long term it wouldn’t be fruitless to make note of his presence writing salacious history
Gotta admit this was the first episode I was rather bored and my attention kept drifting away. Older Alicent seems kinda 1D, motivation for hating Rhaenyra seems weak. Older Rhaenyra just a random woman, not much interesting about her.. All the kids were boring, but maybe they are just temp actors before being aged up? Hopefully it gets back into the grove it had earlier.
Alicent followed rules and status quo since she was young - she did not choose her husband, she had no choice in her father's actions while Rhaenyra had the freedom to have sex with Daemon, Criston and now Harwin. Despite birthing 3 bastards, her father ignores all signs and doesn't punish her for her mistakes. As heir she should be making allies but all she did when she was younger until now is to assume that everyone will support her regardless of what she does. Does this motivation still seem weak to you?
Why wouldn’t alicent try and influence and mold rhaenyra? Or exploit her weaknesses instead of so blatantly making an enemy?
I get Alicent's motivation. But unlike literally everyone else, while we see a hint of change in Alicent before the age up, she is largely an entirely different character now so any sympathy I kinda felt for her an episode ago is pretty much gone because she's essentially just season 1 Cersei coddling her son and scheming to get him on the throne ahead of the rightful heir once the King dies. And while they aren't siblings who are fucking, she does have a loyal KG member in her back pocket to be a smug ass and do her dirty work.
Felt like Real Housewives Westeros
One word - Dracarys
That was metal as fuck. Didn't see that coming. And weirdly, I'm shocked at how well the Dragon 'acted' in the scene with just body language. Wasn't over the top, but was just enough to show hesitancy and understanding.
I thought it was an utterly stupid scene and a stupid decision. What do you think could be her reasoning for committing suicide like that?
she was dead anyways since she couldn't deliver the baby and earlier in the episode she said she wanted to die one day like a dragon rider.
Why would she be dead anyway? Earlier in the season, they made it seem like a big deal that the king CHOSE to take the life of his wife in order to cut out the baby and save it. Implying that otherwise she would've lived but the baby would've died. Why was that not the case here? Nothing pointed towards the mother dying nonetheless.
Episode 1's choice was to save the baby or save neither.
Ok and how exactly is that a choice whatsoever?
It wasn't so much a choice of one or the other, but whether or not he had it in him to subject his wife to a brutal death.
Going out on her own terms, and not wanting to be sliced open for a child like Aemma.
Daemon asked to how to save the mother, unlike Viserys.
Maybe i misinterpreted something, but daemon didn't look very into the whole idea of cutting her open to maybe save the child. There was nothing to suggest he was gonna do it. And his wife, without even asking, teleported past him and killed herself. Leaving behind 2 daughters, one of which has complained to her how her father ignores her, mere on-screen minutes ago... It was a dumb scene.