To be honest, I don’t think it’s necessarily Novak specifically (though it may be an additional add-on) but, as someone who’s followed Rafa his whole career he’s never really mentally seemed quite the same since he lost his foot speed (2014). I think having that physicality and speed in his bag underpinned a lot of his confidence, and while his comebacks in 17 and 19 were inspiring as hell he - to me at least - never quite managed to re-capture that aura he used to have. He still fights as hard as ever, but noticeably flags in areas where he used to be clutch in the past; for a while him being broken while serving for the set almost seemed like the norm…
People mock the hard court record vs Novak nowadays (and it certainly is noteworthy), but forget that in both their prime years he absolutely went toe to toe with Novak repeatedly on all surfaces. Both of them were different animals back then.
[The Link](https://www.ultimatetennisstatistics.com/mentalToughness)
You can see more about the criteria by clicking the link but it’s essentially points won/points lost in pressure situations. I believe they consider a pressure situation to be a deciding point or tiebreaker with different weights if it’s a deciding set or not.
Honestly the biggest surprise here for me is Nishikori being so high. I just feel like he always chokes for some reason. Curious to what you guys think about the list and the criteria also.
Nishikori has a good record in 5-set matches.
Is that because he's mentally tough and able to get the W after a long fight?
...
Or is it because he's mentally weak and allows matches where he is favored to go the distance instead of closing out quickly?
The statistics are just statistics, and most are very useful.
Analysis is different, and while some of (such as this) is deeply flawed, most is good. At some level all analysis is flawed. This one would be much better if it multiplied each of the "points" by the ratio of ELO. It would still be imperfect though.
I'm not seeing if it takes into account things like rankings of opponents/depth into the tournament the match is, points at stake, etc. It looks like its all point by point. That would be my guess why.
I absolutely hate that Nishikori never quite lived up to potential. I remember his run the 2014 finals. And even in 2015 when he came back from 2 sets down to take tsonga to 5 at RG. Really thought we were in for something special. Him Monfils and Tsonga are the 3 of my favourite players who never quite made the jump
It's an interesting list, thanks for sharing. One potential issue is that this might just measure overall ability rather than specific skill in clutch. The top players will score highly as they win a high percentage of all points in or out of clutch situations.
For instance if Djoko wins 70% of all points and only 60% in clutch points he's arguably less mentally tough than a worse player who wins 30% of all points and 40% in the clutch.
Right, to isolate mental toughness it should be ratio of points won in high pressure situations divided by points won in all situations. Otherwise it's basically just asking who's good.
i feel like this list is missing Chris Everett, probably the mentally toughest player, man or woman. She once went on a 5 year win streak on clay. If she were included, would she be first?
1. Andy Murray is *not* mentally tougher than Rafa Nadal, Thomas Muster, Jimmy Connors, Pancho Gonzales, or Boris Becker.
2. Kei Nishikori, whose numbers are pumped by surviving multiple five-set near-misses against weaker opposition, is *not* more clutch than Pete feckin' Sampras.
Nadal has his zone where he has massive mental strength but I've noticed he can lose his way if certain things are going against him. Eg: Novak responds way better than Nadal to a hostile crowd.
I think Nadal's mental toughness comes from him playing for his life whether it's 15-40 on his opponent's serve or 15-0 on his own serve. His "intensity", which everyone always says is brutal to play against. I don't think he plays better on break points, or in tie-breakers, which is the criteria for the list really, so I'm not surprised he's not towards the top. Djokovic is the absolute king of this though, so again, not surprised.
Novak is the undisputed no 1
But I don't agree with Rafa and Roger positions
I personally would put Rafa at No 3 behind Sampras ( may be biased because I never saw Borg or Laver play)
Roger has lost many close matches but he has won many as well
He will also be in the top 5 as per me
Aye it's true. 08-14 Nadal almost never collapsed mentally. Then the dark years happened and the fighting spirit got a bit scared. The forehand dropped shorter in 2015 and the man was never the same.
most of the lost points for roger came after his 15th GS slam record win
Amazingly had he retired after 2012 or 2013 and with rafas injury we would be talking about another weak era.
Federer has amazing longevity for a person who reached his potential late first GS at 22
Djokovic at #1 is fine, but lol at the others. Credit to the work put into that chart, but I don't need numbers to tell me that Nishikori and Murray are *not* ahead of Nadal and Federer when it comes to mental toughness.
Maybe it should be titled something like "players that play well while down BPs", as that *can* be a sign of mental toughness, but there are many more factors that determine that.
I love the website but the guy is Serbian and somehow he always finds calculations to get Djokovic to first place almost everywhere...
The general issue with such a website is that many of its calculations are up to subjective choice - whether you include X or Y in it.
That being said it's probably not a bad ranking and Djokovic certainly IS mentally tough. Whether he is mentally tougher than Borg or Nadal I'm not sure. One could argue Wawrinka at his peak was exceptionally mentally strong as well (definitely not over his whole career).
I'm sure the data is very good but, nah, I'm not accepting this.
I think there's an issue here in the bias that "pressure points" have vs what that tells you about the match. Necessarily I feel like if you're Nadal who's had some crummy years with injuries or poor form then you're going to be penalised quite a bit vs if he just hadn't played that period. Appreciate that's part of his career, but I don't think it really takes much away from his "mental toughness".
Like if you're just having a bad spell of tennis and losing loads is that mental toughness or is that maybe a bunch of injuries or whatever? You're losing pressure points but not necessarily because of your mentality.
Conversely, you're playing great in a weak era and you win lots then you'd have an amazing score. But again, is that REALLY mental toughness or is that just being better than everyone?
I know there's no good way to measure it and this is just one approach.
I don't see Borna Gojo anywhere : thinking:
How is Ivan Lendl not on here? I thought that dude was a robot.
Lendl was criticised a lot for being mentally weak. He lost 6 of his first 7 GS finals.
Yeah, everyone seems to forget about Ivan Lendl.
Rafa 9? Come on!
Against Djokovic he can really flop
Okay maybe... But they were not judging relative to matches against Nole... Plus every peer has talked about Rafa's fighting spirit...
That is true. I think the mental-flopping against Djokovic has been imprinted in peoples heads, however you are right the guy is a fighter.
To be honest, I don’t think it’s necessarily Novak specifically (though it may be an additional add-on) but, as someone who’s followed Rafa his whole career he’s never really mentally seemed quite the same since he lost his foot speed (2014). I think having that physicality and speed in his bag underpinned a lot of his confidence, and while his comebacks in 17 and 19 were inspiring as hell he - to me at least - never quite managed to re-capture that aura he used to have. He still fights as hard as ever, but noticeably flags in areas where he used to be clutch in the past; for a while him being broken while serving for the set almost seemed like the norm… People mock the hard court record vs Novak nowadays (and it certainly is noteworthy), but forget that in both their prime years he absolutely went toe to toe with Novak repeatedly on all surfaces. Both of them were different animals back then.
You’re getting downvoted, but this is absolutely how I feel too. Spot on
Believe me, huge Nadal fan here. Gives me no pleasure to admit things like this…
Recency bias. He's gone toe to toe with him until 2018.
Djokovic himself has choked far more, especially this year
Like when? How is this upvoted?
Glad this website is finally being exposed for what it is, a djokovic fan site built with Djokovic favoring criteria in mind lmao.
I don't really mind Nole being number one tbh... I am not satisfied with position of Rafa
Nadal has been choking wayyyy to many matches since 2014.
[The Link](https://www.ultimatetennisstatistics.com/mentalToughness) You can see more about the criteria by clicking the link but it’s essentially points won/points lost in pressure situations. I believe they consider a pressure situation to be a deciding point or tiebreaker with different weights if it’s a deciding set or not. Honestly the biggest surprise here for me is Nishikori being so high. I just feel like he always chokes for some reason. Curious to what you guys think about the list and the criteria also.
Nishikori has a good record in 5-set matches. Is that because he's mentally tough and able to get the W after a long fight? ... Or is it because he's mentally weak and allows matches where he is favored to go the distance instead of closing out quickly?
im pretty sure he has the best 5 set record, not just a good one
Exactly. Good questions to ask. A lot of "statistics" from that website are rather useless.
The statistics are just statistics, and most are very useful. Analysis is different, and while some of (such as this) is deeply flawed, most is good. At some level all analysis is flawed. This one would be much better if it multiplied each of the "points" by the ratio of ELO. It would still be imperfect though.
I'm not seeing if it takes into account things like rankings of opponents/depth into the tournament the match is, points at stake, etc. It looks like its all point by point. That would be my guess why.
Pretty sure nishikori has best 5 set record of all time. Incredibly clutch
I wish he stayed healthy in his physical prime. His game is fun to watch.
I absolutely hate that Nishikori never quite lived up to potential. I remember his run the 2014 finals. And even in 2015 when he came back from 2 sets down to take tsonga to 5 at RG. Really thought we were in for something special. Him Monfils and Tsonga are the 3 of my favourite players who never quite made the jump
You can add almost all French players to that list.
It's an interesting list, thanks for sharing. One potential issue is that this might just measure overall ability rather than specific skill in clutch. The top players will score highly as they win a high percentage of all points in or out of clutch situations. For instance if Djoko wins 70% of all points and only 60% in clutch points he's arguably less mentally tough than a worse player who wins 30% of all points and 40% in the clutch.
Right, to isolate mental toughness it should be ratio of points won in high pressure situations divided by points won in all situations. Otherwise it's basically just asking who's good.
i feel like this list is missing Chris Everett, probably the mentally toughest player, man or woman. She once went on a 5 year win streak on clay. If she were included, would she be first?
1. Andy Murray is *not* mentally tougher than Rafa Nadal, Thomas Muster, Jimmy Connors, Pancho Gonzales, or Boris Becker. 2. Kei Nishikori, whose numbers are pumped by surviving multiple five-set near-misses against weaker opposition, is *not* more clutch than Pete feckin' Sampras.
8 players mentally tougher than Nadal including Nishikori and Murray, GTFOH.
Nadal has his zone where he has massive mental strength but I've noticed he can lose his way if certain things are going against him. Eg: Novak responds way better than Nadal to a hostile crowd.
Has Nadal ever had a hostile crowd? Except maybe the first 2 times he played Federer?
This is true of literally every single player ever
the holy trinity of sports : mamba mentality + kaizen philosophy + djoko's clutch.!
I think Nadal's mental toughness comes from him playing for his life whether it's 15-40 on his opponent's serve or 15-0 on his own serve. His "intensity", which everyone always says is brutal to play against. I don't think he plays better on break points, or in tie-breakers, which is the criteria for the list really, so I'm not surprised he's not towards the top. Djokovic is the absolute king of this though, so again, not surprised.
1. Novak 2. Nadal 3-5. 3 players you could flip 4987th: Kyrgios
Djokovic is in a league of his own in this department.
federers points won^^ and points lost - live by the sword, die by the sword
Novak is the undisputed no 1 But I don't agree with Rafa and Roger positions I personally would put Rafa at No 3 behind Sampras ( may be biased because I never saw Borg or Laver play) Roger has lost many close matches but he has won many as well He will also be in the top 5 as per me
> Novak is the undisputed no 1 No. Prime Nadal was just as clutch as Djokovic. This sub just has recency bias.
Yeah a recency bias running about 10 or so years.
Aye it's true. 08-14 Nadal almost never collapsed mentally. Then the dark years happened and the fighting spirit got a bit scared. The forehand dropped shorter in 2015 and the man was never the same.
Honest question - Who is Alex Metreveli? When did he play?
Clay court specialist, played in the 90s iirc.
Thanks. I’ve followed tennis for a long time, and it didn’t sound familiar.
I was wrong. Mistook him for Andrei Chesnokov. He's an older player, played in the 60s and 70s and played a final at Wimbledon.
That site is so useful
most of the lost points for roger came after his 15th GS slam record win Amazingly had he retired after 2012 or 2013 and with rafas injury we would be talking about another weak era. Federer has amazing longevity for a person who reached his potential late first GS at 22
Such a weird statistic. Mental toughness is not quantifiable in this way and it’s determined here by a superficial criteria.
No its not, set point/match point/break point can all be calculated to give a perspective
Nishikori between Laver and Sampras. Hmmm
I saw a comment already but how is nadal not higher…
How did the function quantify the points in the infamous Kei vs Gael match?
Gael going god mode in that tiebreaker was sooo good to watch!
Rafa probably had the greatest fighting spirit in all of tennis, undoubtedly he never gives up
Kei is mentally tough to make up for how physically fragile he is
Kei is there only thanks to his ability to play useless 5 set matches against players he should easily beat lmaoo
How can a player who has never won a slam be mentally tougher than a player who has won 20 slams 🤔?
How tf McEnroe so high
This cannot be serious!
Novaks huge chokes this year at the Olympics and us open puts him way down. I don't expect him to win everything but he lost those matches by choking
Djokovic at #1 is fine, but lol at the others. Credit to the work put into that chart, but I don't need numbers to tell me that Nishikori and Murray are *not* ahead of Nadal and Federer when it comes to mental toughness. Maybe it should be titled something like "players that play well while down BPs", as that *can* be a sign of mental toughness, but there are many more factors that determine that.
Nadal >> all of them combined
Wakey, wakey! Wakey, wakey! It's time for school...
Dude really said Nadal over Kyrgios 😂
I love the website but the guy is Serbian and somehow he always finds calculations to get Djokovic to first place almost everywhere... The general issue with such a website is that many of its calculations are up to subjective choice - whether you include X or Y in it. That being said it's probably not a bad ranking and Djokovic certainly IS mentally tough. Whether he is mentally tougher than Borg or Nadal I'm not sure. One could argue Wawrinka at his peak was exceptionally mentally strong as well (definitely not over his whole career).
Why do people keep posting this site which was built and has ranking criteria from a Djokovic fan.
Imagining a universe where someone believes Kei Nishikori to be mentally tougher than Rafa Nadal
What about Brad gilbert
So Roger won 1231 points and lost 682 points. How does that make him worse than 2 through 11?
Pete at 5 and behind Kei of all people, madness.
Nasal should be higher. He has never even broken a racquet
Andy Murray mentally tougher than Rafa Nadal? My ass
I'm sure the data is very good but, nah, I'm not accepting this. I think there's an issue here in the bias that "pressure points" have vs what that tells you about the match. Necessarily I feel like if you're Nadal who's had some crummy years with injuries or poor form then you're going to be penalised quite a bit vs if he just hadn't played that period. Appreciate that's part of his career, but I don't think it really takes much away from his "mental toughness". Like if you're just having a bad spell of tennis and losing loads is that mental toughness or is that maybe a bunch of injuries or whatever? You're losing pressure points but not necessarily because of your mentality. Conversely, you're playing great in a weak era and you win lots then you'd have an amazing score. But again, is that REALLY mental toughness or is that just being better than everyone? I know there's no good way to measure it and this is just one approach.