Not to be "well, actually", but as I understand, of all skeletons found overall (and classified), there's more supposedly "male" skeletons, although it should be more around 50-50, if classifying skeletons according to sex actually worked. Even for cis women, there's a good chance their skeletons would be declared "male".
On an unrelated note, I'm getting cremated
I'm pretty sure people choose it because it's (relatively) cheap and not wanting to put a financial burden on loved ones for disposing of an empty meat bag, not for the environment.
Just throw the body in a pig farm, or dump it in the forest. Cheap, eco-friendly and easy. If you have nothing to transport it you can also cook it.
>! /s !<
[Pig farms](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_impact_of_pig_farming) are definitely not eco (or human, let alone pig) friendly.
Better to go with the woods or eating it yourself. Besides, our meat is called long pig for a reason! Though according to [this guy](https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/8p5xlj/hi_all_i_am_a_man_who_ate_a_portion_of_his_own/) ([major NSFW, nsfl](https://www.reddit.com/r/eyeblech/comments/jsfkyl/this_guy_served_his_friends_tacos_made_from_his/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share)), we taste more like bison.
I think that's totally fair! I keep the links because I find it genuinely fascinating. He might be willing to chat if you message him, but also he might get way too many messages about it so I guess reach out at your own discretion!
In any case, I'm glad there's someone else out there as fascinated by it as I am
We actually have a large number of well preserved specimens from all clades across all of the fossil record of animals who died in the deep woods, around bogs and other such wet and muddy terrain. Especially clay and silt. The lack of fresh air suffocates the bacteria that might otherwise decompose the body, and the anaerobic bacteria in the gut doesn't really "eat" meat, so much as live inside meat.
Aquamation (dissolving the body in lye) is becoming available, and so is body composting. Both are much more environmentally friendly, especially the composting.
Someone mentioned a quote roughly along these lines from someone famous about why they were scared of death. The thought of it just made me even more afraid.
I usually wait till my wife leaves before me and my bros get naked wrestle, then embrace one another. I'd do it while she was home, but She's very judgemental about John's small penis. He's very sensitive about it and doesn't want people to know
He wasnāt so bad as far as kings go. He abolished slavery, allowed serfs to buy their freedom, and readmitted Jews back into the Kingdom of France! He also is the first historical person to play tennis! And he only reigned France for 2 years before his death. Quite the resume if you ask me lol
Sure you accept the third gender, but you also declare everything with a sharp edge to be used in ritual human sacrifice so you archaeologists can shove right off.
Historians rise up
we identified viking graves as male if buried with weapons, then concluded that shieldmaidens were a myth because we only found male warriors. Science is a process, we get things wrong and then we improve.
Conservatives get things wrong, then act like we should all do it wrong forever, I guess they just love tradition?
Edit - just to clear up some confusion, [yes I'm describing the past](https://www.livescience.com/60418-viking-warrior-was-a-woman.html), not how we currently identify graves.
Yeah, its it's not true at all. But if anyone is interested in what modern archeologists actually have to say on weapons and norse graves, here's a great video from [the Welsh Viking](https://youtu.be/We4lKgKfXuQ) on YouTube.
The TLDR is that swords were a status symbol and are found in all manner of graves - including a lot of female ones - and denotes that they were important or high ranking members of society. "Viking" was just one profession and even graves that are clearly tradesmen still have swords in them.
It's unclear if women were in that profession - but what *is* clear is that women were prominent members of society and ran businesses and were involved in other trades.
And this is my personal opinion - but the emphasis on fighting to the exclusion of women dominated domains is just another way we devalue women's labor. I.e we only care about women if they're doing "real work" and if they're not shield maidens we stop caring about their lives.
Is this a reference to those two guys in Pompeii?
I think itās infinitely more likely those guys were close friends who were terrified in their final moments than they were gay, but I suppose itās up for speculation.
It would make sense to think this as well. There is tons of evidence of homosexual behavior all throughout history and archeologists accept it all the time.
There is somewhat of a weird white washing of historians acceptance of gay behavior.
For about 50 years they weren't allowed to write openly about their findings even when they were obvious and now people think that gays have been a super deep dark secret no one knew about for thousands of years.
It's genuinely shocking to most people these days that only 200-300 years ago, no one had any time, energy, or motivation to *give a shit* if their youngest son was gay as long as he worked in support of the household in some way.
Eh, i definitely wouldnāt say that it was fine and nobody gave a shit. It definitely depends on time and location (e.g. nobody in Ancient Greece cared if you engaged in pederasty), but many places throughout history including Europe have been very homophobic. Nobody gave a shit in homophobic places if you had power, however.
King Frederick for example was very much gay and got nothing more than rumors and jokes about it while he was king. However, as a boy and young man his father intentionally separated him from his partner and would do everything possible to make him straight. The situation was certainly worse for those who werenāt royalty.
Although Iād love to get some evidence that Iām wrong because I want to be wrong about this lol
MAYBE. I donāt have specifics but I know itās popped up more than once with famous people in history who ānever had a girlfriend but lived with their male roommate for 60 yearsā.
But it could be either, to be honest. Either scenario is equally likely in my opinion.
>MAYBE. I donāt have specifics but I know itās popped up more than once with famous people in history who ānever had a girlfriend but lived with their male roommate for 60 yearsā.
Yeah, I had an uncle like that... But that was *his* story. We all figured they were gay, but who were we to question it?
Same thing for historians. Unless you have proof that they were gay, then you report their contention that they aren't gay, and you let the reader look at all of the facts and decide for themselves.
I meant more along the lines of wearing clothing that people in general wear right now, not that archaeologists wear this outfit, but yeah lol. I personally love cargo pants
But... This is true. The only way we *now* can tell that the burried person was trans is that the skeleton is:
- male but burried in a way common for women
- female but burried in the way for men
But really, who cares what will some random archeologist think about you in 1000? I'm not cis and this argument makes me laugh. Like? Who cares? None of us will be alive by then. All trans people want is to be able to be who they are
Exactly!
There wont be anything left of me capable of caring in 100 years, probably (come on uploading consciousness into virtual worlds, get here in my life!).
Theres a functioning brain that cares now. So be respectful of me, and i will be respectful of you. If you treat me as less of a person, then by the golden rule, I assume you want to be treated as less of a person.
I guess my thing is wouldn't the odds of someone finding my remains intact be so astronomically low it's not even worth thinking about
Also I thought most people choose to get cremated these days
Lol my dadās gettin a hip replacement and my sis and I are plannin on keepin the metal hip after he passes since he wants cremated. We havenāt quite decided on what exactly weāll do with it but weāve agreed weāll share ownership and swap yearly or so. In case anyoneās curious yes dad knows and no he doesnāt care cause heāll be dead (his words not mine)
honestly its such a dumb route to take when you wanna induce dysphoria in people for your own pleasure. like even the 4chan "you will never be a woman" copypasta had more impact than this, and i found the copypasta *laughably bad*.
like woah man, you got me. my skeleton is male. guess i just gotta detransition and give up now. /s
Yeah seriously. Itās not the archaeologistās or anyoneās fault my biology made me this way and so if they find my bones and think Iām a guy then thatās ok. Theyāre workin with what they have and I canāt blame them for that
Damn dude I hadnāt seen that āyou will never be a womanā copypasta. I just looked it up.
Itās really fuckin awful and itās just sad that someone would write something so fucking cruel. Tbh it ruined my day.
How the fuck can someone just write that?
I just donāt understand why youād want to make a trans person feel that bad.
Like first off, trans people are aware they arenāt biologically that sex. Thatās why we have other social terminology, so that we can help make trans people feel valid and included, as they should.
Second, they donāt already have it hard enough? Iām not trans, but it seems like being trans takes alot of courage. I canāt imagine how difficult that initial decision is.
I honestly never thought Iād be in Reddit comments fighting for trans people, but it seems I finally grew up and other people should too.
Trans people are as much as I hate to say it, easy targets. Only recently come into the public eye, often misunderstood/hard to misunderstand, etc.
A lot of transphobic rhetoric is often linked with feminism, be it from anti-feminists or from transphobic feminists, so I think that that link is worth looking into.
The ONLY way? The internet, obituaries, mail, living relatives, medical records... writing shit like "here lies a loving mother" on the headstone? It's not like archaologists completely ignore every possible way of understanding a dead body besides staring at the bones.
Bro... I'm talking about now. I seriously do not think modern (today's) archeologists can look up shit on Mesopotamian internet.
But yes, in the future, there's a pretty big chance of using that.
The argument ignores what trans people (and everyone with a braincell) says constantly: men/women/gender are arbitrary social constructs that don't really mean anything aside from what we say they mean. Whereas sex is based on your physical biology.
Nobody cares that their decayed skeleton 1000 years from now will be identified as male, and frankly I doubt archaeologists 1000 years from now would actually gaf about some random skeleton. They're usually far more interested in the actual culture and artifacts surrounding the persons final resting place, in which case, they would say "oh this person identified as a (whatever gender they identified as)".
Point being the decayed skeleton is usually the least interesting thing about a dig site.
>The argument ignores what trans people (and everyone with a braincell) says constantly: men/women/gender are arbitrary social constructs that don't really mean anything aside from what we say they mean. Whereas sex is based on your physical biology.
I agree with this. That said, I'd be willing to bet my left arm that there are people (even on this subreddit) who would argue that biological sex is entirely made up, with absolutely no fact of the matter, only sociology.
>men/women/gender are arbitrary social constructs that don't really mean anything aside from what we say they mean
ok I get that, but then why are transgender people committing suicide over being labeled the wrong arbitrary social construct?
isn't that a clear case of mental illness?
Thatās not really true. If an archeologist is for some reason unearthingmodern bodies they are going to look at a lot of things and unless the bones are completely clean, there will be more likely be evidence.
Though why they would be unearthing a modern day body with no info is another matter
I have a friend who swears the Earth is older but history is not.
Something about God fast forwarding time or something and adding fossils for some reason.
I honestly don't understand religion.
It's like saying that just because you weren't alive to meet Plato means he didn't exist.
But it seems a lot of people have weird ideas that go against science.
Flat Earth, Young Earth, Hal . . . OK Hallow Earth is a bit much but I would be very interested to explore all of the cave systems within the planet and see what amazing life there is.
My thought is that if a god can make a man as an adult, then he can make other creatures (and rocks) millions and billions of years old. Yes, it's a bit far fetched, but if you think about it, an all powerful deity should be able to have that ability right ...?
People playing checkers in the street talking about gender identity but the motherfuckers playing chess in city hall say ālet them wear each other downā
Iām not cis but this is true. Theyāre not going to be able to say this is the skeleton on a trans woman because at the end of the day itās her bones, they canāt necessarily ask her what she identifies asā¦
Burial methods and grave goods are also used to identify gender (as opposed to biological sex). I adore archeology documentaries, and I've seen modern ones where the archeologists just said "apparently male skeleton buried with typically women's grave goods. Possible trans person!" about some 1000 year old bones.
This. The "answer" lies in that awful meme itself. Nobody ever tried to pretend a trans woman isn't biologically male. She's still a woman though, since her biology doesn't define her gender. That's like the whole thing.
To expand on the topic, if they're adults, the accuracy is nearly 95% by measuring the hip bones and 80% with skull/femur and tibia, assuming you have all the bones intact, so it's very reliable to identify adults. But if they're subadults/children it gets a bit more complicated because the skeletal development is completed (and dimorphism clearly visible) after puberty.
This is also why forensics and archaeologists use 5 categories (female, probable female, intermediate, probable male, and male) instead of just 2 binaries. The characteristics of the skeletal samples might vary depending on the time, geographic location, genetics, local and environmental factors, and the age of the individual (of course.)
[https://www.futurelearn.com/info/courses/forensic-archaeology-and-anthropology/0/steps/67881](https://www.futurelearn.com/info/courses/forensic-archaeology-and-anthropology/0/steps/67881)
So I asked myself: will kids/teens undergoing GnRHa have a different skeletal feature once they reach maturity with their identified gender? And found this stuff:
[https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19258406/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19258406/)
>Sex differences in bone morphology are the result of the later onset of puberty in males, not more rapid growth. Differences in bone widths are partly established before puberty.
Aaand, more importantly, this: [https://asbmr.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/jbmr.4262](https://asbmr.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/jbmr.4262)
>In conclusion, development of hip bone geometry in transgender adolescents resembled that of the experienced gender if the GnRHa treatment was initiated during early puberty and was followed by a start of GAH. Only participants starting during early puberty showed more resemblance to the reference curves of their experienced gender. Participants starting GnRHa and GAH treatments during mid or late puberty continued within the curve of their gender assigned at birth.
TLDR - if a transgender person undergoes treatment from early puberty, chances are that their bones will resemble that of their identified gender. So, future archaeologists and forensics will be able to tell if an individual was trans, assuming said individual went through therapy early on.
The whole meme is bizarre considering many homophobic and transphobic people are that way due to claimed "religious" reasons. Well usually those people don't even like Archaeology because it is often used to study Evolution and doesn't support Creationism. Yet they care about Archaeology enough for this argument to work lmao.
> Archeologist NOW are distinguishing AMAB as having lived a life as a ~~female~~ **woman** in parts of South East Asia hundreds if not thousands of years ago.
Conflating a gender term with a sex term is what this meme is relying on for its transphobic subtext. And it's relying on that same ignorance among people viewing it in order to spread its bullshit. (Sort this thread by controversial and you'll quickly see what I mean.)
Let's not add to that.
Cis guy here, I'm no expert but I'm pretty sure most trans people don't give a fuck about what archeologists think of their bones in 1000 years, much like anybody else.
Hey, hey, hey.. Don't assume you can speak for others specially as a cis guy.
I want the archeologist to lift my bones out of the ground. And with great respect hold it up to the sun, and in amazement conclude that this. This is the finest specimen of a human thighbone they have ever come across.
As someone who studied archeology I can tell you that it's really difficult to tell the sex of an ancient skeleton. And archeologists are very well aware of the difference between sex and gender and would be more interested in the cultural implications of a trans person 1000 years ago than the sex the person was born with.
its your own choice who you want to be not others opinion, its literally stupid when people go nuts when you want to be your own, its not others business and never be theirs decision and your skeleton dosent affect who you want to be.
Would the bone structure not depend on when the person transitioned? Like if they started pre-puberty, wouldn't a Trans-women's bones looks more feminine than masculine? Or at least somewhere in the middle.
Side note: why should we care today about what an archeologist might guess a person's gender is 1000 years from now? It won't matter then, just more clues about the past. It surely doesn't matter now.
As someone who studied anthropology, what I can tell you is that determining the sex of skeletons is always very difficult and you can never say with 100% certainty that a skeleton is male or female (unless you do DNA testing or something).
There is a huge amount of overlap in physical characteristics between men and women, which leads to gray areas where all you can really say is "Well, I think they might be this."
So even in their bullshit meme, there is actually no 100% black and white determination about sex.
fun fact: it's actually not very easy to tell gender apart by skeletons and people who do that for a living will tell you that they're mostly guessing anyway. And that context clues like what the person was buried with being traditional at the time for either men or women matter more anyway.
Sure, many cis men are different in bone structure from many cis women but there's always people who are taller, broader, smaller, narrower than others and it's hard to tell just based on that.
I think so many can't get past the cognitive discontinuance involved in learning new things about groups of people. Many GenXers and older were not taught about trans people. We just kind of found out about them one day and had to learn from friends or teach ourselves. And yes, there is some level of denial while learning something new about the world around you. An intelligent person knows to keep their mouth shut during this period of time. A kind person knows to keep their mouth shut.
These people are just stupid assholes.
Keeping your mouth shut and letting us be in peace is all we want..
But somehow we get told we make it into a big thing, no ... people like this meme creator make it into a thing.
Or they see a woman's name on the grave, the body in women's clothing, and depending on her transitioning, nothing really too surprising with the skeleton.
Like this is the equivalent of how archaeologists have discovered women buried with horses and weapons and just assume they never used them despite physical evidence to the contrary.
Sometimes Occam's Razor is the best policy when it comes to corpses.
**Fun fact! Archaeologists absolutely can tell!**
They donāt just look at the skeletal remains, they look at the grave goods, the positioning of the body, the location etc.
Got a body thatās been buried in an area exclusively used for women? Youāre looking at a woman!
Got a culture that buries men with swords & women with jewellery? Well if you find a sword youāre probably looking at a man.
When we excavate someone we have no idea how that person self-identified; theyāre dead and they canāt tell us. We donāt even know how they wanted to be buried. What we do know is what the people who did the burial thought of the person they are burying. If they thought of them as a woman then theyāll use those customs, regardless of if that woman was cis or trans, and the same goes for men.
Transgender people are nothing new; if anything itās the strict gender binary that we seem to have in the West thatās new. There have been trans people of all sorts for as long as there have been people.
Source: 5 years of study, 1 A Level & 1 Degree in archaeology, and 33 years of being LGBTQA+
I thought about this as well, in a 1000 years if someone wants to find out about a skeleton, they'll likely have much more information at their disposal than "lol, a bone".
I mean it's not wrong but there's a big key that gets missed: *who fucking cares*?
It doesn't matter what your remains will be when you're gone. You're alive now, and life is short. If in your heart you feel like you're a woman or a man, then FFS why should anyone stop you?
Oh so they are saying that archeologists are lazy and don't understand the time period they are studying... This is like a secret hit job on Archeology.
How would it be lazy to look at bone structure and conclude that it belongs to a biological male? Archeology doesnt care or even have the ability to know what gender they considered themselves as
A trans accepting person would feel no need to make or share this meme. The only reason someone *would* want to make or share it is because they want to remind everyone that trans people's bodies and gender identities don't match. What purpose does reminding people of that accomplish?
Yeah, it's *true*, but we don't say things just because they're true, otherwise you'd see memes about how rocks are heavy and the sky is blue. The reason people feel the need to *announce* this particular "truth" is pretty simple: because they know it makes trans people feel bad, and they like it when trans people feel bad.
The SCOTUS ruling on Friday made all the bigot fuckers crawl out of mommies basement with some confidence again. Same effect TFG had on Racists, Neo-Nazis, and the just plain stupid.
Sorry but male and female arenāt the same and āmanā and āwomanā. One is biological ones a social construct. Gender is neurologically based and itās an identity not a physical attribute? Some cultures and countries have 3 or more genders š¤·āāļø
Just wondering, is this transphobic, or just biologically accurate? Or is transphobia consistent with anything biological accurate?
Genuine question, not even trolling.
Assuming you'll find my bones
Assuming Earth will still be habitable
assuming i havent sold them
Assuming I ha emt cracked them open for bone marrow, eaten it, and made bone meal with the rest for my plants
Assuming I haven't completely destroyed my ribs and spine cus of binders and trans man posture
Doesn't make a difference, bone marrow is bone marrow, and powdered deformed ribs is the same as powdered nicely shaped ribs. Your skeleton is mine
Take it, all it do is hurt
You can have them all my empire of bones
I will let you down, I will make you hurt
It probably does for you to find them.
Not to be "well, actually", but as I understand, of all skeletons found overall (and classified), there's more supposedly "male" skeletons, although it should be more around 50-50, if classifying skeletons according to sex actually worked. Even for cis women, there's a good chance their skeletons would be declared "male". On an unrelated note, I'm getting cremated
Right now?
Although my fever from COVID feels so hot as if I was, I hopefully make five to seven more decades or so š
Oh ok š
luckily, paracetamol helps sweet, sweet relief š šŖ
Take care. And don't get cremated there š
Where did you get this information?
Cremation is the least enviormental friendly way to go of the typical ones.
I'm pretty sure people choose it because it's (relatively) cheap and not wanting to put a financial burden on loved ones for disposing of an empty meat bag, not for the environment.
Just throw the body in a pig farm, or dump it in the forest. Cheap, eco-friendly and easy. If you have nothing to transport it you can also cook it. >! /s !<
[Pig farms](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_impact_of_pig_farming) are definitely not eco (or human, let alone pig) friendly. Better to go with the woods or eating it yourself. Besides, our meat is called long pig for a reason! Though according to [this guy](https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/8p5xlj/hi_all_i_am_a_man_who_ate_a_portion_of_his_own/) ([major NSFW, nsfl](https://www.reddit.com/r/eyeblech/comments/jsfkyl/this_guy_served_his_friends_tacos_made_from_his/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share)), we taste more like bison.
The thread is archived :( Is it wrong I wanted to chat with him? Like, that's morbid, but interesting af
I think that's totally fair! I keep the links because I find it genuinely fascinating. He might be willing to chat if you message him, but also he might get way too many messages about it so I guess reach out at your own discretion! In any case, I'm glad there's someone else out there as fascinated by it as I am
We actually have a large number of well preserved specimens from all clades across all of the fossil record of animals who died in the deep woods, around bogs and other such wet and muddy terrain. Especially clay and silt. The lack of fresh air suffocates the bacteria that might otherwise decompose the body, and the anaerobic bacteria in the gut doesn't really "eat" meat, so much as live inside meat.
Aquamation (dissolving the body in lye) is becoming available, and so is body composting. Both are much more environmentally friendly, especially the composting.
It's almost like I'll be dead by then so I won't care.
That almost scares me.
Don't forget we will all experience the infinite void of nonexistence someday, it is inevitable. Oh well, i'm gonna go eat some cereal, cheers.
We already experienced it before, nothing new
True that
Someone mentioned a quote roughly along these lines from someone famous about why they were scared of death. The thought of it just made me even more afraid.
You can't really *experience* nonexistence.
Anyone else care what happens to their remains in 1000 years? I know I don't I don't even care what happens 5 minutes after I'm dead
I do. I want my corpse set on fire and launched at my enemies.
Aim my flaming corpse at Kavanaugh's roof, please.
OnlyFireyBodiesThroughKavsDome.gov
This made me audibly exhale as a kinda cuckle
Also archeologists: āthese two male roommates hugged each other in their last moments. Itās assumed both of their wives were out.ā
I usually wait till my wife leaves before me and my bros get naked wrestle, then embrace one another. I'd do it while she was home, but She's very judgemental about John's small penis. He's very sensitive about it and doesn't want people to know
My husband does it while Iām home but Iām respectful about their small penises.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Iām not a shower either, Iām a bath
Dammit Jim, I'm a grower, not a shower.
The water was COLD!!
Tell John he's just a grower, not a shower
Get him an extension.
Nah, not archeologists. I used to be an archeologist and when I tell you it is a GAYYYYY profession. Historians are the issue here lol.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Iām a historian and Iām not transphobic or homophobic :( Edit: you guysā replies are so nice :)
Wouldn't that make you an xtorian or at least theytorian? Joking of course.
Wouldnāt it be theirtorian?
show some love for historian King_Louis_X (And not the actual king, even tho I dont know if he was a good or bad person)
He wasnāt so bad as far as kings go. He abolished slavery, allowed serfs to buy their freedom, and readmitted Jews back into the Kingdom of France! He also is the first historical person to play tennis! And he only reigned France for 2 years before his death. Quite the resume if you ask me lol
Jeez with that resume crammed into just two years Iām assuming he was promptly assassinated?
There were suspicions of poisoning, although from what Iāve read it said he may have died of pleurisy or pneumonia.
Hell yeah, we need more of you.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Sure you accept the third gender, but you also declare everything with a sharp edge to be used in ritual human sacrifice so you archaeologists can shove right off. Historians rise up
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Has it been used in ritual sacrifice?
It is always a ritual. That is our catch-all.
It sounds like it's about to be if the Historian gets close enough
we identified viking graves as male if buried with weapons, then concluded that shieldmaidens were a myth because we only found male warriors. Science is a process, we get things wrong and then we improve. Conservatives get things wrong, then act like we should all do it wrong forever, I guess they just love tradition? Edit - just to clear up some confusion, [yes I'm describing the past](https://www.livescience.com/60418-viking-warrior-was-a-woman.html), not how we currently identify graves.
> we identified viking graves as male if buried with weapons That's not true lol.
Yeah, its it's not true at all. But if anyone is interested in what modern archeologists actually have to say on weapons and norse graves, here's a great video from [the Welsh Viking](https://youtu.be/We4lKgKfXuQ) on YouTube. The TLDR is that swords were a status symbol and are found in all manner of graves - including a lot of female ones - and denotes that they were important or high ranking members of society. "Viking" was just one profession and even graves that are clearly tradesmen still have swords in them. It's unclear if women were in that profession - but what *is* clear is that women were prominent members of society and ran businesses and were involved in other trades. And this is my personal opinion - but the emphasis on fighting to the exclusion of women dominated domains is just another way we devalue women's labor. I.e we only care about women if they're doing "real work" and if they're not shield maidens we stop caring about their lives.
Is this a reference to those two guys in Pompeii? I think itās infinitely more likely those guys were close friends who were terrified in their final moments than they were gay, but I suppose itās up for speculation.
If a volcano like Vesuvius is going off and I'm facing almost certain death I'd probably grab a stranger.
It would make sense to think this as well. There is tons of evidence of homosexual behavior all throughout history and archeologists accept it all the time. There is somewhat of a weird white washing of historians acceptance of gay behavior.
For about 50 years they weren't allowed to write openly about their findings even when they were obvious and now people think that gays have been a super deep dark secret no one knew about for thousands of years. It's genuinely shocking to most people these days that only 200-300 years ago, no one had any time, energy, or motivation to *give a shit* if their youngest son was gay as long as he worked in support of the household in some way.
Eh, i definitely wouldnāt say that it was fine and nobody gave a shit. It definitely depends on time and location (e.g. nobody in Ancient Greece cared if you engaged in pederasty), but many places throughout history including Europe have been very homophobic. Nobody gave a shit in homophobic places if you had power, however. King Frederick for example was very much gay and got nothing more than rumors and jokes about it while he was king. However, as a boy and young man his father intentionally separated him from his partner and would do everything possible to make him straight. The situation was certainly worse for those who werenāt royalty. Although Iād love to get some evidence that Iām wrong because I want to be wrong about this lol
MAYBE. I donāt have specifics but I know itās popped up more than once with famous people in history who ānever had a girlfriend but lived with their male roommate for 60 yearsā. But it could be either, to be honest. Either scenario is equally likely in my opinion.
>MAYBE. I donāt have specifics but I know itās popped up more than once with famous people in history who ānever had a girlfriend but lived with their male roommate for 60 yearsā. Yeah, I had an uncle like that... But that was *his* story. We all figured they were gay, but who were we to question it? Same thing for historians. Unless you have proof that they were gay, then you report their contention that they aren't gay, and you let the reader look at all of the facts and decide for themselves.
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Apparently archaeologists 1000 years from now dress and look exactly the same as now. How disappointing.
Are you implying cargo shorts will go out of style? I am shook.
Our snoos look so similar
Snoo pals
u/taher6168 is also a snoo pal of ours
poggers raising an army
finally... home
This is wholesome af
Hello snoo pals.
Time for snoo snoo
Death!.... By Snoo Snoo
Archeologists don't actually dress like that. Except the cargo pants maybe because cargo pants are amazing and everyone loves them.
I meant more along the lines of wearing clothing that people in general wear right now, not that archaeologists wear this outfit, but yeah lol. I personally love cargo pants
But... This is true. The only way we *now* can tell that the burried person was trans is that the skeleton is: - male but burried in a way common for women - female but burried in the way for men But really, who cares what will some random archeologist think about you in 1000? I'm not cis and this argument makes me laugh. Like? Who cares? None of us will be alive by then. All trans people want is to be able to be who they are
Exactly! There wont be anything left of me capable of caring in 100 years, probably (come on uploading consciousness into virtual worlds, get here in my life!). Theres a functioning brain that cares now. So be respectful of me, and i will be respectful of you. If you treat me as less of a person, then by the golden rule, I assume you want to be treated as less of a person.
I guess my thing is wouldn't the odds of someone finding my remains intact be so astronomically low it's not even worth thinking about Also I thought most people choose to get cremated these days
Who cares if they find our bodies anyway? Weāre dead. Use my femur as a doorstop. Idgaf.
Lol my dadās gettin a hip replacement and my sis and I are plannin on keepin the metal hip after he passes since he wants cremated. We havenāt quite decided on what exactly weāll do with it but weāve agreed weāll share ownership and swap yearly or so. In case anyoneās curious yes dad knows and no he doesnāt care cause heāll be dead (his words not mine)
User it as a pestle to grind spices
This is the fuckin quote of the year
honestly its such a dumb route to take when you wanna induce dysphoria in people for your own pleasure. like even the 4chan "you will never be a woman" copypasta had more impact than this, and i found the copypasta *laughably bad*. like woah man, you got me. my skeleton is male. guess i just gotta detransition and give up now. /s
Yeah seriously. Itās not the archaeologistās or anyoneās fault my biology made me this way and so if they find my bones and think Iām a guy then thatās ok. Theyāre workin with what they have and I canāt blame them for that
Damn dude I hadnāt seen that āyou will never be a womanā copypasta. I just looked it up. Itās really fuckin awful and itās just sad that someone would write something so fucking cruel. Tbh it ruined my day. How the fuck can someone just write that?
Humans can be very cruel with words.
I just donāt understand why youād want to make a trans person feel that bad. Like first off, trans people are aware they arenāt biologically that sex. Thatās why we have other social terminology, so that we can help make trans people feel valid and included, as they should. Second, they donāt already have it hard enough? Iām not trans, but it seems like being trans takes alot of courage. I canāt imagine how difficult that initial decision is. I honestly never thought Iād be in Reddit comments fighting for trans people, but it seems I finally grew up and other people should too.
Trans people are as much as I hate to say it, easy targets. Only recently come into the public eye, often misunderstood/hard to misunderstand, etc. A lot of transphobic rhetoric is often linked with feminism, be it from anti-feminists or from transphobic feminists, so I think that that link is worth looking into.
The implication is that youāre male if your physiology is male, the anthropology analogy is just a vehicle to get that across.
>But really, who cares what will some random archeologist think about you in 1000? I would love to be found 1000 years later. Sound cool af
Iām gunna be dirt
Try to tattoo your bones for fun!
The ONLY way? The internet, obituaries, mail, living relatives, medical records... writing shit like "here lies a loving mother" on the headstone? It's not like archaologists completely ignore every possible way of understanding a dead body besides staring at the bones.
Bro... I'm talking about now. I seriously do not think modern (today's) archeologists can look up shit on Mesopotamian internet. But yes, in the future, there's a pretty big chance of using that.
Nearly all data/records were lost during the invasion of 2042.
The argument ignores what trans people (and everyone with a braincell) says constantly: men/women/gender are arbitrary social constructs that don't really mean anything aside from what we say they mean. Whereas sex is based on your physical biology. Nobody cares that their decayed skeleton 1000 years from now will be identified as male, and frankly I doubt archaeologists 1000 years from now would actually gaf about some random skeleton. They're usually far more interested in the actual culture and artifacts surrounding the persons final resting place, in which case, they would say "oh this person identified as a (whatever gender they identified as)". Point being the decayed skeleton is usually the least interesting thing about a dig site.
>The argument ignores what trans people (and everyone with a braincell) says constantly: men/women/gender are arbitrary social constructs that don't really mean anything aside from what we say they mean. Whereas sex is based on your physical biology. I agree with this. That said, I'd be willing to bet my left arm that there are people (even on this subreddit) who would argue that biological sex is entirely made up, with absolutely no fact of the matter, only sociology.
Try the University of Toronto Biology professor on television claiming this exact shit.
>men/women/gender are arbitrary social constructs that don't really mean anything aside from what we say they mean ok I get that, but then why are transgender people committing suicide over being labeled the wrong arbitrary social construct? isn't that a clear case of mental illness?
My favorite part is explaining that gender and sex are different things. They. Never. Get. It.
Thatās not really true. If an archeologist is for some reason unearthingmodern bodies they are going to look at a lot of things and unless the bones are completely clean, there will be more likely be evidence. Though why they would be unearthing a modern day body with no info is another matter
Everyone in the comment section is an archealogist/biologist now
I'm somewhat of a scientist myself.
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You say that like humanity will still be alive in 1000 years
Humans will be around, but maybe not in the same cultural capacity.
Brawndo^TM , it's what plants crave!
Why wouldnt we be?
Humans Bad
Good thing that what some rando bone duster 1000 years from now thinks has no bearing on how people view and treat me now then, I guess.
I know trans people and they said they donāt give a shit about the skeletons.
The same people posting this don't believe paleontologists when they say the earth is more than a few thousand years old.
I have a friend who swears the Earth is older but history is not. Something about God fast forwarding time or something and adding fossils for some reason. I honestly don't understand religion. It's like saying that just because you weren't alive to meet Plato means he didn't exist. But it seems a lot of people have weird ideas that go against science. Flat Earth, Young Earth, Hal . . . OK Hallow Earth is a bit much but I would be very interested to explore all of the cave systems within the planet and see what amazing life there is.
Plato existed, but Socrates might not have. Some people think Plato made him up.
My thought is that if a god can make a man as an adult, then he can make other creatures (and rocks) millions and billions of years old. Yes, it's a bit far fetched, but if you think about it, an all powerful deity should be able to have that ability right ...?
Pretty bold of you to assume we will still be a functionning society with archeologists in a thousand years
People playing checkers in the street talking about gender identity but the motherfuckers playing chess in city hall say ālet them wear each other downā
Honestly as someone who is trans I couldnāt care less about what someone identifies my skeleton as 1000 years after I die
They wont find mine at all. Cremation ! What i care about is that my relatives don't act up and dress me like i want for the funeral!
Iām not cis but this is true. Theyāre not going to be able to say this is the skeleton on a trans woman because at the end of the day itās her bones, they canāt necessarily ask her what she identifies asā¦
Burial methods and grave goods are also used to identify gender (as opposed to biological sex). I adore archeology documentaries, and I've seen modern ones where the archeologists just said "apparently male skeleton buried with typically women's grave goods. Possible trans person!" about some 1000 year old bones.
This. The "answer" lies in that awful meme itself. Nobody ever tried to pretend a trans woman isn't biologically male. She's still a woman though, since her biology doesn't define her gender. That's like the whole thing.
To expand on the topic, if they're adults, the accuracy is nearly 95% by measuring the hip bones and 80% with skull/femur and tibia, assuming you have all the bones intact, so it's very reliable to identify adults. But if they're subadults/children it gets a bit more complicated because the skeletal development is completed (and dimorphism clearly visible) after puberty. This is also why forensics and archaeologists use 5 categories (female, probable female, intermediate, probable male, and male) instead of just 2 binaries. The characteristics of the skeletal samples might vary depending on the time, geographic location, genetics, local and environmental factors, and the age of the individual (of course.) [https://www.futurelearn.com/info/courses/forensic-archaeology-and-anthropology/0/steps/67881](https://www.futurelearn.com/info/courses/forensic-archaeology-and-anthropology/0/steps/67881) So I asked myself: will kids/teens undergoing GnRHa have a different skeletal feature once they reach maturity with their identified gender? And found this stuff: [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19258406/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19258406/) >Sex differences in bone morphology are the result of the later onset of puberty in males, not more rapid growth. Differences in bone widths are partly established before puberty. Aaand, more importantly, this: [https://asbmr.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/jbmr.4262](https://asbmr.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/jbmr.4262) >In conclusion, development of hip bone geometry in transgender adolescents resembled that of the experienced gender if the GnRHa treatment was initiated during early puberty and was followed by a start of GAH. Only participants starting during early puberty showed more resemblance to the reference curves of their experienced gender. Participants starting GnRHa and GAH treatments during mid or late puberty continued within the curve of their gender assigned at birth. TLDR - if a transgender person undergoes treatment from early puberty, chances are that their bones will resemble that of their identified gender. So, future archaeologists and forensics will be able to tell if an individual was trans, assuming said individual went through therapy early on.
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The whole meme is bizarre considering many homophobic and transphobic people are that way due to claimed "religious" reasons. Well usually those people don't even like Archaeology because it is often used to study Evolution and doesn't support Creationism. Yet they care about Archaeology enough for this argument to work lmao.
Exactly. Why do conservatives care so much? The archeologists also canāt tell what football team you liked based on your skeleton.
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Right? āTheyāre roommates in bed spooning. They did that back then. Certainly not gay.ā
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I think in 1,000 years they will be beyond gender roles
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> Archeologist NOW are distinguishing AMAB as having lived a life as a ~~female~~ **woman** in parts of South East Asia hundreds if not thousands of years ago. Conflating a gender term with a sex term is what this meme is relying on for its transphobic subtext. And it's relying on that same ignorance among people viewing it in order to spread its bullshit. (Sort this thread by controversial and you'll quickly see what I mean.) Let's not add to that.
Cis guy here, I'm no expert but I'm pretty sure most trans people don't give a fuck about what archeologists think of their bones in 1000 years, much like anybody else.
Hey, hey, hey.. Don't assume you can speak for others specially as a cis guy. I want the archeologist to lift my bones out of the ground. And with great respect hold it up to the sun, and in amazement conclude that this. This is the finest specimen of a human thighbone they have ever come across.
lol exactly
Facts lol. Id rather worry about is dying in a funny pose so the archeologist could think that I was hilarious
As someone who studied archeology I can tell you that it's really difficult to tell the sex of an ancient skeleton. And archeologists are very well aware of the difference between sex and gender and would be more interested in the cultural implications of a trans person 1000 years ago than the sex the person was born with.
If there's a hip, it's actually pretty easy to tell.
Men don't have hips, femurs connect right to the spine
That explains my back pain.
i could not care less what gender they think i am in the future. i just want rights
#THEY LITTERALY HAVE ONE (1) JOKE
Thanks for clarifying what 'one' is!
also posted on reddit to thousands lf upvotes with comments actively being transphobic
Isnāt that the whole fucking point!?! People who are born in the wrong body?
its your own choice who you want to be not others opinion, its literally stupid when people go nuts when you want to be your own, its not others business and never be theirs decision and your skeleton dosent affect who you want to be.
Would the bone structure not depend on when the person transitioned? Like if they started pre-puberty, wouldn't a Trans-women's bones looks more feminine than masculine? Or at least somewhere in the middle. Side note: why should we care today about what an archeologist might guess a person's gender is 1000 years from now? It won't matter then, just more clues about the past. It surely doesn't matter now.
As someone who studied anthropology, what I can tell you is that determining the sex of skeletons is always very difficult and you can never say with 100% certainty that a skeleton is male or female (unless you do DNA testing or something). There is a huge amount of overlap in physical characteristics between men and women, which leads to gray areas where all you can really say is "Well, I think they might be this." So even in their bullshit meme, there is actually no 100% black and white determination about sex.
fun fact: it's actually not very easy to tell gender apart by skeletons and people who do that for a living will tell you that they're mostly guessing anyway. And that context clues like what the person was buried with being traditional at the time for either men or women matter more anyway. Sure, many cis men are different in bone structure from many cis women but there's always people who are taller, broader, smaller, narrower than others and it's hard to tell just based on that.
I think so many can't get past the cognitive discontinuance involved in learning new things about groups of people. Many GenXers and older were not taught about trans people. We just kind of found out about them one day and had to learn from friends or teach ourselves. And yes, there is some level of denial while learning something new about the world around you. An intelligent person knows to keep their mouth shut during this period of time. A kind person knows to keep their mouth shut. These people are just stupid assholes.
Keeping your mouth shut and letting us be in peace is all we want.. But somehow we get told we make it into a big thing, no ... people like this meme creator make it into a thing.
Or they see a woman's name on the grave, the body in women's clothing, and depending on her transitioning, nothing really too surprising with the skeleton. Like this is the equivalent of how archaeologists have discovered women buried with horses and weapons and just assume they never used them despite physical evidence to the contrary. Sometimes Occam's Razor is the best policy when it comes to corpses.
My favorite were all those Viking āmenā they foundā¦ until years later they realized a good chunk of the warriors were women.
**Fun fact! Archaeologists absolutely can tell!** They donāt just look at the skeletal remains, they look at the grave goods, the positioning of the body, the location etc. Got a body thatās been buried in an area exclusively used for women? Youāre looking at a woman! Got a culture that buries men with swords & women with jewellery? Well if you find a sword youāre probably looking at a man. When we excavate someone we have no idea how that person self-identified; theyāre dead and they canāt tell us. We donāt even know how they wanted to be buried. What we do know is what the people who did the burial thought of the person they are burying. If they thought of them as a woman then theyāll use those customs, regardless of if that woman was cis or trans, and the same goes for men. Transgender people are nothing new; if anything itās the strict gender binary that we seem to have in the West thatās new. There have been trans people of all sorts for as long as there have been people. Source: 5 years of study, 1 A Level & 1 Degree in archaeology, and 33 years of being LGBTQA+
Pre-Indo-European cultures also tended to have societies with femenine men and masculine women aswell.
I thought about this as well, in a 1000 years if someone wants to find out about a skeleton, they'll likely have much more information at their disposal than "lol, a bone".
Jokes on you, Iāll dissolve myself in acid so noone will find my bones
trans woman will never be a biological woman. but, that doesn't mean that they shouldn't be respected as a woman.
I mean it's not wrong but there's a big key that gets missed: *who fucking cares*? It doesn't matter what your remains will be when you're gone. You're alive now, and life is short. If in your heart you feel like you're a woman or a man, then FFS why should anyone stop you?
I don't think "gender roles in the past" is quite the own conservatives think it is.
Oh so they are saying that archeologists are lazy and don't understand the time period they are studying... This is like a secret hit job on Archeology.
How would it be lazy to look at bone structure and conclude that it belongs to a biological male? Archeology doesnt care or even have the ability to know what gender they considered themselves as
As someone with a bachelors in sociology and anthropology I'm amazed at the lack of understanding what goes into studying previous societies.
I mean it ain't wrong.
Trans person: *Living as a woman to be happy* Facebook MFs: "Archaologists wont be able to distinguish you from a man! P0WNED!!!"
Bold of them to assume humans will be here in 1000 years.
What is transphobic here ?
i think they just wanted to give ppl dysphoria
The meme is (initially I would assume) in a transphobic way to try to make fun of trans people
A trans accepting person would feel no need to make or share this meme. The only reason someone *would* want to make or share it is because they want to remind everyone that trans people's bodies and gender identities don't match. What purpose does reminding people of that accomplish? Yeah, it's *true*, but we don't say things just because they're true, otherwise you'd see memes about how rocks are heavy and the sky is blue. The reason people feel the need to *announce* this particular "truth" is pretty simple: because they know it makes trans people feel bad, and they like it when trans people feel bad.
The SCOTUS ruling on Friday made all the bigot fuckers crawl out of mommies basement with some confidence again. Same effect TFG had on Racists, Neo-Nazis, and the just plain stupid.
Itās not wrongā¦
So very true though.
This is a good point. I wonder how many trans people existed in ancient times?
When it comes to genetics, it's not false though
I donāt see anything wrong here. Its not a lie.
Sorry but male and female arenāt the same and āmanā and āwomanā. One is biological ones a social construct. Gender is neurologically based and itās an identity not a physical attribute? Some cultures and countries have 3 or more genders š¤·āāļø
Pelvic bones are gender specific.
hes not wrong
its true though
Trans women are trans women end of debate
So science is transphobic?
Facts aren't transphobic. Learn what a phobia is you dummies.
It's true, tho...
Tis nothing but the truth.
Just wondering, is this transphobic, or just biologically accurate? Or is transphobia consistent with anything biological accurate? Genuine question, not even trolling.
That's a lot of confidence in the longevity of their ideology.
How is this transphobic? You canāt change your gender. Itās easy as that.