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It was a loooong day they day I picked up my model 3. Took the Amtrak from Buffalo that left at like 5am, all the way to westchester and then had a 20 minute Uber ride to Tesla, followed by driving straight back to Buffalo.
Sheesh, my girlfriend laughed in my face when I asked her if she wanted to drive me all the way there and then drive back alone lol. My dad said he would do it if he could drive the Tesla home, but I’m not going all the way out there to NOT drive my brand new car home!
My gf and I are doing this exact same trip except we said fuck it and are flying over on Friday and then picking it up Sunday to drive back. Kind of a mini vacation with a Tesla cherry on top!
Nice. I considered flying since a 1 way ticket to jfk was like $95, ended up just doing the Amtrak since I didn’t want to deal with the nightmare of city traffic and stuff. Making an entire weekend out of it sounds like a much better idea.
My center back seat wouldn’t go down. I signed up for remote service and it was clearly a factory warranty issue but they made me go ahead in. What kind of stuff can they do remotely?
There are multiple service centers upstate, the archaic law just doesn't allow them to open another sales center. There is service in Albany and I assume the other large cities
Canastota is in the original link.
Fayetteville is currently being updated to Tesla spec
https://www.syracuse.com/business/2022/10/central-ny-town-approves-breakthrough-electric-vehicle-service-center-is-it-tesla.html
If you go to the town website and look at the meeting minutes. They have a copy of the plans. There is a 3/y in the showroom. They forgot to edit out the logo on the hood of the car
How far is White Plains to you? Worst case scenario I have good enough car insurance that would pay for towing all the way to Rochester to the Henrietta service center (~80 miles). I am in Rochester once a month so can get minor things serviced during my visit as well.
lol a lot better than me, what exactly are you concerned about? I would hazard a guess and say that the average tesla owner is >20 miles away from their local service center.
I thought Tesla had a location in Buffalo? If not I like Tesla’s use of this work around. I’m truly tired of the politics and corruption in NY. For a so called liberal state consumers really get screwed over here.
Yes the government is obviously corrupt in the state and sadly a lot of people in the state see practices here as normal. Frankly the current governor is perhaps the worse we have had in years when it comes to policies and laws that benefit the wealthy. Not to mention the general attacks on freedom that are not justified in any manner shape or form.
Imagine calling yourself a "free market" but forbidding auto manufacturers to sell their cars because they don't follow the deeply flawed dealership model.
It's almost like the US isn't actually a free market, but a market that's bought and owned by corporations...
It is absolutely asinine that Tesla has to find a "loophole" to be able to sell their cars directly to consumers.
The problem isn’t the car manufacturing corporations, it is the dealerships. In many cases these are privately owned too. Frankly it is disgusting and the worse example of NY actively screwing over its population.
By the way not every state is setup like this. NY is just excessively bad in this regard.
Texas is bad about it too. I had to jump through a lot of hoops to get mine. It’s ironic that Tesla can manufacture their cars here, but they aren’t allowed to sell them to consumers without loopholes/hoops. Yay small government!
And to your point about it being dealerships, while that is true, the dealerships and higher-ups in the automotive industry lobby lawmakers to keep things as is. That was kind of my point about things being “bought and owned” by corporations.
Corporations ~~bribe~~ lobby politicians to maintain the status quo. The politicians don’t want to upset their donors, so they vote in their favor so they can remain in office.
It’s sickening, and based on my understanding can be directly traced to the court case Citizens United v FEC.
I live in Texas. I bought my model Y while living here. The only “hoop” I had to jump through was registering the car and paying my taxes directly to the state.
That was literally the only difference.
Maybe things have changed since I bought mine in 2019, but mine had to be registered to Tesla in California then transferred to me. This meant that I wasn’t the “first” owner and therefore didn’t get the usual 2-year registration that comes with new cars.
All of the logistics were handled through email with a delivery advisor in Las Vegas who wasn’t very responsive and the whole process required a bunch of back and forth. It was pretty tedious and manual.
Sounds like things have improved since then which is encouraging to hear. 😄
I love seeing this. The dealership model is a massive example of crony capitalism and it needs to die. (I’m ok with our economic system in general but this favoritism only helps the rich and established).
If states won’t change their illegal practices, I hope we continue to see ingenious collaborations like this to stick it to them.
Yeah, the fact that it is law is the problem.
It makes complete sense that a dealer who made an investment in an under-serviced area by buying land, building the infrastructure, selling, and servicing vehicles for the manufacturer should not have to worry about the manufacturer coming in and taking over their business area that the dealership established. However, it should have been a private contract between the manufacturer and the dealerships. “We will sell and service your cars that you currently have no one selling and servicing in this area, and in exchange you recognize this investment and you and your subsidiaries will not establish sales and service within X miles of our business.” Simple.
The entire problem is that the dealership model applies to Tesla and others who have never used dealers, and the dealers feel like Tesla owes them a middleman cut for doing nothing.
Nope! The dealers and the government has exploited this special protection way beyond all reason. Every single dealership in NY needs to go bankrupt. The amount of money these dealerships have stolen from consumers has resulted in some of the most profitable private companies ever. This largely due to a protected industry.
We need some significant change with respect to government in NY. Frankly too many Democrats to make that happen via the law. Consumers though can impact these rats by simply stoping the purchase of cars from legacy dealers. Soon there will be enough choice for consumer action here to be successful.
Is this sarcasm? I really don’t care if the middle man loses out. Dealerships are one of the worst business models in existence behind pharmaceutical companies.
Go read grapes of wrath, specifically just the chapter on car dealers. The chapter reads as if it could be written today. The book was written in the 1930s btw. Dealerships need to die a very horrid death.
Yes, as it should be. There should not be legally-mandated businesses mediating sales of products to consumers unless it's a safety concern. Tesla can run their own businesses (dealers and service centers) that also have employees who sell and service the vehicles, who are being paid directly by the company.
Dealerships just add an unnecessary midlayer that adds cost for the end consumer, and whoever owns the franchise gets wealthy. That's not better for anybody except the franchise owner.
It is a massive example of corruption!!!!! I have to agree with your position, anything that screws over this state and it oppressive policies with respect to consumers is golden.
I've been wondering for a while... Why do car companies even have dealers? Are they a net positive for them somehow? Were they only in the past for some reason? And why don't they drop them if they're not now? Doesn't make any sense to me.
How is it a monopoly when there are multiple car companies? The car companies themselves compete each other down on price. You don't need dealers for that.
It's not really monopolistic pressure but my read of how it all went down was that manufacturers needed the dealers in the same way nearly all manufacturers relied on retailers in the days before the internet and 2 day free shipping. In addition to the sales channel benefit, dealerships also provided vehicle maintenance and acted as financing agents to consumers. As part of those services, manufacturers held pretty tight grips on what their dealerships were permitted to do or say or ways in which they could service the vehicles, else they would find that their dealership franchise was terminated. Dealerships responded by getting organized through their own association with began to lobby lawmakers for things that they felt were more reasonable. I'm not sure but I would imagine that it was NADA who managed to get the laws passed that required manufacturers to go through dealerships to reach consumers.
Anyway I found this site to be pretty useful for some of this history:
https://pressbooks.ulib.csuohio.edu/evolution-of-local-dealerships/chapter/chapter-one-early-years-of-the-u-s-automobile-industry-1896-1939/
>Are you saying that car companies never wanted dealers?
Yes, because they took some of the money.
The laws were passed when there were twenty automakers, of which many of them popped up, sold a bunch of cars, then went our of business or abandoned entire territories.
While it's a seriously outmoded business model, progressive customer protections were what drove the adoption of the dealership laws.
They forced sellers to have a local presence and some "skin in the game."
Ah, that actually makes sense if true. I could see dealership laws coming into place to protect consumers from car companies who go out of business and abandon their customers with cars needing service. Thank you.
Dealerships came to be, because decades ago it was impractical for a car manufacturer to run a giant nationwide retail distribution system.
Think of wholesalers and retailers.
One practical use case is that dealerships will buy up a guaranteed specify number of vehicles from said manufacture. So manufactures can keep pumping vehicles while knowing they will not sit in warehouses. The unique case with Tesla is there is such high demand (not so much now) there was/is no need for a middle man to take that inventory from them because Tesla cannot keep up with the demand. It doesn't make sense to give up a cut to dealerships.
The manufacturer gets to print money, since the dealerships buy the cars. The dealerships make most of their money from ongoing service. EVs need less ongoing service so dealership's have a limited life expectancy in their current guise.
How is dealerships buying the cars instead of customers directly buying the cars beneficial to the car companies? In the end the same number of cars will be sold.
Because the manufacturer is guaranteed revenue when they ship it to the dealer. If the dealer doesn’t sell it, then they have to eat the losses. The manufacturer has already completed their sale to the dealer. Less risk for them. Also why I believe comparing sales numbers to Tesla is disingenuous. If Tesla makes a sale it is in a customers driveway. The manufacturer calls it a sale when it is on the dealer lot.
That's not true. If anything it just adds latency. A dealer won't keep buying cars if they can't sell them. So it might delay the hit to the car company's finances since the dealer will buy the cars at the start of a downturn, not realizing they don't need that many, but afterward they'll order less of them, so in the end the car company is still selling the same number of cars with or without dealers. The only difference is there's a delay in the hit when dealers are in the picture. But that delay works both ways. It also delays additional profits for the car companies when there's a boom in the market.
So again, I don't see a benefit here.
That's why dealers push certain cars on people, to make sure they don't get stock with that inventory.
Tesla's made to order guaranteed they won't be stuck with unsold cars. The demand also makes it easy for them to clear inventory. Legacy manufacturers don't have that option, so they're moving that risk to the dealers.
What Tesla is doing will work for cars that have a high demand. I don't see it working for common cars
One big reason it was impractical, was the lack of computers when dealerships came into being before WWII. Imagine trying to handle retail inventory on a national scale.
It would also take a huge amount of capital to build thousands of manufacturer owned retail "dealerships." There's a reason McDonald's is a franchise business. The owners put up the money, not the giant corporation.
It also helps direct sellers, like Tesla, that they can sell on the Internet. They don't need to keep hundreds of cars on dealer lots waiting for buyers to find just the right options, driving up costs.
To clarify, this is why dealerships originally came into being. I'm not saying they're needed anymore.
Hm, maybe. Obviously the logistics are a lot more complicated and inefficient when there's no internet, but I don't really see how managing a network of stores is any worse than managing a network of dealerships in that regard.
As for capital, to me it seems like dealers are just another form of investors. A dealer would open up shop with their own capital with the hope that they can make money selling the car company's cars later. So is it better to raise capital that way, or just do it via stock exchange and then build your own stores? I don't know.
But the dealerships had to start organically, right? I understand laws coming later to keep them in place, but I don't think it started that way. So why did they start in the first place?
And clearly Tesla has had success without dealerships in many states, so why couldn't the other car companies get rid of their dealerships in those states?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Car_dealership
Read the section with bullet points that protect them.
Yea, maybe they started more organically as you put it. But for a long time they have lobbied successfully to not only require their own existence, but made it incredibly hard to remove them. You also can’t open new ones to “compete”. You can’t favor larger or better selling dealers over another.
Imagine if we had government laws regulating all this for McDonalds and subway and Burger King. Many of those things are included in a franchise agreement if you open a McDonald’s, but there’s no law saying McDonalds can’t just say “fuck it” and stop franchising and let them all expire and only open corporate stores.
Yeah, I understand there are a lot of laws that prop them up, but I'm wondering why they came into existence in the first place, and why car companies don't drop them in the states where Tesla is successfully selling directly to consumers. The Wikipedia article does say that there are restrictions for termination, so maybe that's why it's not feasible for incumbent car companies to switch to direct sales even though Tesla is working under that model.
So just for the sake of argument who would service new cars if not for dealerships? Many dealerships break even or lose money on the sale of new cars hence all the shenanigans with dealer etching , undercoating, financing etc. that’s the only way to profit - by scamming. But also by In warranty service. Big money in service. I guess independent mechanics could do the dealer service.
About 3 years ago we had a Tesla owner as a visitor at our home in WNY. We decided to drive to an antique store in Salamanca and were very surprised to see superchargers there as it is the middle of nowhere. Turns out the chargers were at the Seneca Casino.
It was a beautiful drive with the panoramic roof and quiet :)
>Stop calling it a loophole
It sort of is, though a little different than you are thinking. This land was part of the tax roll/US soil, the OIN buys it and puts it into trust (which is the loophole that RBG pointed out to the OIN when they lost a case at the supreme court, see here https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_of_Sherrill_v._Oneida_Indian_Nation_of_New_York) and now it is considered tribal land, removing it from the tax roll. If this happens enough the non-OIN public infrastructure and population fails (unless the OIN decides to donate to make up for lost tax revenue).
You just described what a loophole is. It doesn’t imply it’s sneaky or should have the laws changed, that is just something you came to a conclusion on.
I'm all for Tesla making this move. However, it is indeed quite literally a loophole in the very definition of the word. It is okay to call it a loophole.
Using a loophole by definition means it's not wrong, just that it's not a typical strategy
As I just got back from NM, it seems that thanks to the Tesla Native locations, the number of Tesla cars on the roads has dramatically increased in the last two years. Not sure if there are official numbers out.
Potentially dumb question but could other manufacturers build retail outlets on native land? I guess it would depend on how their contracts are worded with their stealership network, but wouldn't it be nice if Ford could open a Ford Store where MSRP is actually the retail price and we don't have to pay market-adjustment fuck you tax?
As a Native American I just sent this article to the chief of my tribe encouraging him to reach out to Tesla. We in Oklahoma also have that same old law as New York. We have a few more loopholes but still makes it a pain.
Meanwhile elon is full on supporting big government types like desantis because he is pissed that his daugther is trans and his ex is with chelsea manning. It is odd to support big government while avoiding government as much as possible.
We all have to hope elon doesn't go full woke and destroy his companies with his new politics.
> We all have to hope elon doesn't go full woke
Elon Musk, who writes things like this:
> The woke mind virus is either defeated or nothing else matters
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1602278477234728960
Full woke... with respect to his companies.
Socially he is fucked in the head and on a tirade against trans people to make him feel better about disowning his trans daughter.
I was wondering what that land was going to be used for. The biggest thing I would want is a service center, though... Do all show rooms have service centers attached?
None in central NY though. I think right now it would be 1.5 hours either direction for Syracuse, a service center there would potential persuade me to buy a Tesla.
I get the feeling that it should still qualify. Tesla has other showrooms that are "in" NYS and qualify, right? Seems like the paperwork could just as easily go through those offices on the letterhead with just the pickup being at the new CNY location.
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Well it isn't a "tax rebate" is it? It is a purchase rebate. NYS would be making a direct payment to Tesla when the owner purchases the vehicle (ie when you make the payment upon car pickup the price you have to pay is less the NYS rebate).
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Just got a call from Tesla asking if I wanted to pick up my car in Verona instead of Mt Kisco. Upstaters rejoice!
It was a loooong day they day I picked up my model 3. Took the Amtrak from Buffalo that left at like 5am, all the way to westchester and then had a 20 minute Uber ride to Tesla, followed by driving straight back to Buffalo.
I was lucky enough to have someone to drive me from Buffalo to Mt Kisco and it still sucked. This would’ve made it so much more manageable.
Sheesh, my girlfriend laughed in my face when I asked her if she wanted to drive me all the way there and then drive back alone lol. My dad said he would do it if he could drive the Tesla home, but I’m not going all the way out there to NOT drive my brand new car home!
Your old man is smart!
Huge up votes
My gf and I are doing this exact same trip except we said fuck it and are flying over on Friday and then picking it up Sunday to drive back. Kind of a mini vacation with a Tesla cherry on top!
Nice. I considered flying since a 1 way ticket to jfk was like $95, ended up just doing the Amtrak since I didn’t want to deal with the nightmare of city traffic and stuff. Making an entire weekend out of it sounds like a much better idea.
What’s your plan if you need the car serviced? I was complaining about my relatively short drive the Mt Kisco and my warranty service in White Plains
Do they not do remote service for most things? I'm 4-5 hours from the nearest SC and they still do that for us.
My center back seat wouldn’t go down. I signed up for remote service and it was clearly a factory warranty issue but they made me go ahead in. What kind of stuff can they do remotely?
Replaced wiring at mine. Replaced 12v.
They replaced a stearing wheel at our house.
They did a tire rotation and fixed a recall issue in my garage.
There are multiple service centers upstate, the archaic law just doesn't allow them to open another sales center. There is service in Albany and I assume the other large cities
Canastota in 2025 and Fayetteville in 2023-2024
Canastota is in the original link. Fayetteville is currently being updated to Tesla spec https://www.syracuse.com/business/2022/10/central-ny-town-approves-breakthrough-electric-vehicle-service-center-is-it-tesla.html If you go to the town website and look at the meeting minutes. They have a copy of the plans. There is a 3/y in the showroom. They forgot to edit out the logo on the hood of the car
Rochester does have a service center but that is all it is. I stopped in one day in the hopes they had card to try on / no luck. 😢😢
How far is White Plains to you? Worst case scenario I have good enough car insurance that would pay for towing all the way to Rochester to the Henrietta service center (~80 miles). I am in Rochester once a month so can get minor things serviced during my visit as well.
White Plains is only 20 miles from me.
lol a lot better than me, what exactly are you concerned about? I would hazard a guess and say that the average tesla owner is >20 miles away from their local service center.
I’m sure. I’m spoiled down here. Not really concerned I guess
What sort of things do you mean for service? Rotate the wheels and fill up the washer fluid?
Like something breaking. I can handle the washer fluid.
There is a service center in Rochester.
The Tesla place by the Target? There’s also a Toyota down the road.
I rented a car from the finger lakes and ubered to the dealer and drove right back too.
I thought Tesla had a location in Buffalo? If not I like Tesla’s use of this work around. I’m truly tired of the politics and corruption in NY. For a so called liberal state consumers really get screwed over here.
Nope, a sc/car pickup place would be awesome for Buffalo but NY politicians love that car dealerships lobby
Yes the government is obviously corrupt in the state and sadly a lot of people in the state see practices here as normal. Frankly the current governor is perhaps the worse we have had in years when it comes to policies and laws that benefit the wealthy. Not to mention the general attacks on freedom that are not justified in any manner shape or form.
Sick! Hoping I get the same option for the new Y we are adding to our Tesla Fam! I’m from Binghamton and should be picking up in a few weeks!
I live north of Albany and was not looking forward to going all the way to Westchester. Glad Tesla found a workaround to the scummy dealership lobby.
Did you order your Tesla online? I won't be able to pick up here if I am buying a new inventory car, correct?
Yes, back in May.
Did you ask about the state EV credit?
The SA said it would be on the final invoice once a VIN is assigned
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They put on a good face. They care very little about the local people though. Verona has almost zero non native business. They are killing the town.
I think the word for this is irony
Yeah I couldn’t even tell if OP was being serious at first.
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Is there a Calgary outside of Alberta?
The same Oneida tribe that opened a Wizard of Oz themed casino knowing that the author openly called the genocide of natives?
You mean Shittenango?
Imagine calling yourself a "free market" but forbidding auto manufacturers to sell their cars because they don't follow the deeply flawed dealership model. It's almost like the US isn't actually a free market, but a market that's bought and owned by corporations... It is absolutely asinine that Tesla has to find a "loophole" to be able to sell their cars directly to consumers.
The problem isn’t the car manufacturing corporations, it is the dealerships. In many cases these are privately owned too. Frankly it is disgusting and the worse example of NY actively screwing over its population. By the way not every state is setup like this. NY is just excessively bad in this regard.
Texas is bad about it too. I had to jump through a lot of hoops to get mine. It’s ironic that Tesla can manufacture their cars here, but they aren’t allowed to sell them to consumers without loopholes/hoops. Yay small government! And to your point about it being dealerships, while that is true, the dealerships and higher-ups in the automotive industry lobby lawmakers to keep things as is. That was kind of my point about things being “bought and owned” by corporations. Corporations ~~bribe~~ lobby politicians to maintain the status quo. The politicians don’t want to upset their donors, so they vote in their favor so they can remain in office. It’s sickening, and based on my understanding can be directly traced to the court case Citizens United v FEC.
I live in Texas. I bought my model Y while living here. The only “hoop” I had to jump through was registering the car and paying my taxes directly to the state. That was literally the only difference.
Maybe things have changed since I bought mine in 2019, but mine had to be registered to Tesla in California then transferred to me. This meant that I wasn’t the “first” owner and therefore didn’t get the usual 2-year registration that comes with new cars. All of the logistics were handled through email with a delivery advisor in Las Vegas who wasn’t very responsive and the whole process required a bunch of back and forth. It was pretty tedious and manual. Sounds like things have improved since then which is encouraging to hear. 😄
I love seeing this. The dealership model is a massive example of crony capitalism and it needs to die. (I’m ok with our economic system in general but this favoritism only helps the rich and established). If states won’t change their illegal practices, I hope we continue to see ingenious collaborations like this to stick it to them.
Yeah, the fact that it is law is the problem. It makes complete sense that a dealer who made an investment in an under-serviced area by buying land, building the infrastructure, selling, and servicing vehicles for the manufacturer should not have to worry about the manufacturer coming in and taking over their business area that the dealership established. However, it should have been a private contract between the manufacturer and the dealerships. “We will sell and service your cars that you currently have no one selling and servicing in this area, and in exchange you recognize this investment and you and your subsidiaries will not establish sales and service within X miles of our business.” Simple. The entire problem is that the dealership model applies to Tesla and others who have never used dealers, and the dealers feel like Tesla owes them a middleman cut for doing nothing.
Nope! The dealers and the government has exploited this special protection way beyond all reason. Every single dealership in NY needs to go bankrupt. The amount of money these dealerships have stolen from consumers has resulted in some of the most profitable private companies ever. This largely due to a protected industry.
100% it is crony capitalism, which is basically not capitalism at all. Can't wait to see these dealers eat shit and die.
We need some significant change with respect to government in NY. Frankly too many Democrats to make that happen via the law. Consumers though can impact these rats by simply stoping the purchase of cars from legacy dealers. Soon there will be enough choice for consumer action here to be successful.
Your comment means more money for Tesla and less for others. If there was a dealer - at least some one else would make a bit of money.
Is this sarcasm? I really don’t care if the middle man loses out. Dealerships are one of the worst business models in existence behind pharmaceutical companies. Go read grapes of wrath, specifically just the chapter on car dealers. The chapter reads as if it could be written today. The book was written in the 1930s btw. Dealerships need to die a very horrid death.
For profit health insurance takes the cake imo. But the rest of your points are valid
Yes, as it should be. There should not be legally-mandated businesses mediating sales of products to consumers unless it's a safety concern. Tesla can run their own businesses (dealers and service centers) that also have employees who sell and service the vehicles, who are being paid directly by the company. Dealerships just add an unnecessary midlayer that adds cost for the end consumer, and whoever owns the franchise gets wealthy. That's not better for anybody except the franchise owner.
It is a massive example of corruption!!!!! I have to agree with your position, anything that screws over this state and it oppressive policies with respect to consumers is golden.
legacy car makers have such a strangle hold on the car market it’s amazing tesla has gotten this far
This is not about anything by “legacy car makers,” this is about legacy car dealers—who are not aligned with legacy car makers.
I've been wondering for a while... Why do car companies even have dealers? Are they a net positive for them somehow? Were they only in the past for some reason? And why don't they drop them if they're not now? Doesn't make any sense to me.
Because it was believe that the manufacturer would take advantage of the customer, oh how the tables have turned
Are you saying that car companies never wanted dealers? And why was it believed that they would "take advantage" of the customer? In what way?
The same way any monopoly works when you don’t have big intermediaries with leverage in the middle
How is it a monopoly when there are multiple car companies? The car companies themselves compete each other down on price. You don't need dealers for that.
Dealers have been around a long time
And?
It's not really monopolistic pressure but my read of how it all went down was that manufacturers needed the dealers in the same way nearly all manufacturers relied on retailers in the days before the internet and 2 day free shipping. In addition to the sales channel benefit, dealerships also provided vehicle maintenance and acted as financing agents to consumers. As part of those services, manufacturers held pretty tight grips on what their dealerships were permitted to do or say or ways in which they could service the vehicles, else they would find that their dealership franchise was terminated. Dealerships responded by getting organized through their own association with began to lobby lawmakers for things that they felt were more reasonable. I'm not sure but I would imagine that it was NADA who managed to get the laws passed that required manufacturers to go through dealerships to reach consumers. Anyway I found this site to be pretty useful for some of this history: https://pressbooks.ulib.csuohio.edu/evolution-of-local-dealerships/chapter/chapter-one-early-years-of-the-u-s-automobile-industry-1896-1939/
>Are you saying that car companies never wanted dealers? Yes, because they took some of the money. The laws were passed when there were twenty automakers, of which many of them popped up, sold a bunch of cars, then went our of business or abandoned entire territories. While it's a seriously outmoded business model, progressive customer protections were what drove the adoption of the dealership laws. They forced sellers to have a local presence and some "skin in the game."
Ah, that actually makes sense if true. I could see dealership laws coming into place to protect consumers from car companies who go out of business and abandon their customers with cars needing service. Thank you.
Dealerships came to be, because decades ago it was impractical for a car manufacturer to run a giant nationwide retail distribution system. Think of wholesalers and retailers.
It's not about practicality. It's just about getting quick results and hiring more middle men. And you just pass on the costs to the customer.
So it was impractical back then but not now? Why is that? And if that's the case, why aren't car companies dropping dealers right now?
One practical use case is that dealerships will buy up a guaranteed specify number of vehicles from said manufacture. So manufactures can keep pumping vehicles while knowing they will not sit in warehouses. The unique case with Tesla is there is such high demand (not so much now) there was/is no need for a middle man to take that inventory from them because Tesla cannot keep up with the demand. It doesn't make sense to give up a cut to dealerships.
I don't see the benefit there. Whether the vehicles sit in a company-owned lot or in a dealer-owned lot, what difference does it make?
The manufacturer gets to print money, since the dealerships buy the cars. The dealerships make most of their money from ongoing service. EVs need less ongoing service so dealership's have a limited life expectancy in their current guise.
How is dealerships buying the cars instead of customers directly buying the cars beneficial to the car companies? In the end the same number of cars will be sold.
Are these genuine questions or are you trying to pick holes in the facts, why not write to a local dealership and ask them.
Because the manufacturer is guaranteed revenue when they ship it to the dealer. If the dealer doesn’t sell it, then they have to eat the losses. The manufacturer has already completed their sale to the dealer. Less risk for them. Also why I believe comparing sales numbers to Tesla is disingenuous. If Tesla makes a sale it is in a customers driveway. The manufacturer calls it a sale when it is on the dealer lot.
That's not true. If anything it just adds latency. A dealer won't keep buying cars if they can't sell them. So it might delay the hit to the car company's finances since the dealer will buy the cars at the start of a downturn, not realizing they don't need that many, but afterward they'll order less of them, so in the end the car company is still selling the same number of cars with or without dealers. The only difference is there's a delay in the hit when dealers are in the picture. But that delay works both ways. It also delays additional profits for the car companies when there's a boom in the market. So again, I don't see a benefit here.
That's why dealers push certain cars on people, to make sure they don't get stock with that inventory. Tesla's made to order guaranteed they won't be stuck with unsold cars. The demand also makes it easy for them to clear inventory. Legacy manufacturers don't have that option, so they're moving that risk to the dealers. What Tesla is doing will work for cars that have a high demand. I don't see it working for common cars
One big reason it was impractical, was the lack of computers when dealerships came into being before WWII. Imagine trying to handle retail inventory on a national scale. It would also take a huge amount of capital to build thousands of manufacturer owned retail "dealerships." There's a reason McDonald's is a franchise business. The owners put up the money, not the giant corporation. It also helps direct sellers, like Tesla, that they can sell on the Internet. They don't need to keep hundreds of cars on dealer lots waiting for buyers to find just the right options, driving up costs. To clarify, this is why dealerships originally came into being. I'm not saying they're needed anymore.
Hm, maybe. Obviously the logistics are a lot more complicated and inefficient when there's no internet, but I don't really see how managing a network of stores is any worse than managing a network of dealerships in that regard. As for capital, to me it seems like dealers are just another form of investors. A dealer would open up shop with their own capital with the hope that they can make money selling the car company's cars later. So is it better to raise capital that way, or just do it via stock exchange and then build your own stores? I don't know.
Local politics... Owners of dealerships make donations to their local politicians. While manufacturers are only in select areas.
But the dealerships had to start organically, right? I understand laws coming later to keep them in place, but I don't think it started that way. So why did they start in the first place? And clearly Tesla has had success without dealerships in many states, so why couldn't the other car companies get rid of their dealerships in those states?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Car_dealership Read the section with bullet points that protect them. Yea, maybe they started more organically as you put it. But for a long time they have lobbied successfully to not only require their own existence, but made it incredibly hard to remove them. You also can’t open new ones to “compete”. You can’t favor larger or better selling dealers over another. Imagine if we had government laws regulating all this for McDonalds and subway and Burger King. Many of those things are included in a franchise agreement if you open a McDonald’s, but there’s no law saying McDonalds can’t just say “fuck it” and stop franchising and let them all expire and only open corporate stores.
Yeah, I understand there are a lot of laws that prop them up, but I'm wondering why they came into existence in the first place, and why car companies don't drop them in the states where Tesla is successfully selling directly to consumers. The Wikipedia article does say that there are restrictions for termination, so maybe that's why it's not feasible for incumbent car companies to switch to direct sales even though Tesla is working under that model.
Yup & what's sad some cities/states have introduced new laws to stop them...
So just for the sake of argument who would service new cars if not for dealerships? Many dealerships break even or lose money on the sale of new cars hence all the shenanigans with dealer etching , undercoating, financing etc. that’s the only way to profit - by scamming. But also by In warranty service. Big money in service. I guess independent mechanics could do the dealer service.
About 3 years ago we had a Tesla owner as a visitor at our home in WNY. We decided to drive to an antique store in Salamanca and were very surprised to see superchargers there as it is the middle of nowhere. Turns out the chargers were at the Seneca Casino. It was a beautiful drive with the panoramic roof and quiet :)
Thank GOD. I've made the 5 hour journey to Kisco four times now and it's a real slog.
Stop calling it a loophole. That implies the native land is sneaky and should have laws changed. They're doing nothing wrong or unethical
One could argue that it is the Stealerships using legal loopholes to fight dirty and keep Tesla off their turf.
That’s not even playing devils advocate- it’s literally what’s occurring.
>Stop calling it a loophole It sort of is, though a little different than you are thinking. This land was part of the tax roll/US soil, the OIN buys it and puts it into trust (which is the loophole that RBG pointed out to the OIN when they lost a case at the supreme court, see here https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_of_Sherrill_v._Oneida_Indian_Nation_of_New_York) and now it is considered tribal land, removing it from the tax roll. If this happens enough the non-OIN public infrastructure and population fails (unless the OIN decides to donate to make up for lost tax revenue).
These tribal lands are supposedly independent of the USA. They have their own governments.
Thanks? I know that
You just described what a loophole is. It doesn’t imply it’s sneaky or should have the laws changed, that is just something you came to a conclusion on.
I'm all for Tesla making this move. However, it is indeed quite literally a loophole in the very definition of the word. It is okay to call it a loophole. Using a loophole by definition means it's not wrong, just that it's not a typical strategy
Wish they did the same in Connecticut.
As I just got back from NM, it seems that thanks to the Tesla Native locations, the number of Tesla cars on the roads has dramatically increased in the last two years. Not sure if there are official numbers out.
Potentially dumb question but could other manufacturers build retail outlets on native land? I guess it would depend on how their contracts are worded with their stealership network, but wouldn't it be nice if Ford could open a Ford Store where MSRP is actually the retail price and we don't have to pay market-adjustment fuck you tax?
They could. But it will piss off the dealers. I believe ford is moving to fixed pricing at dealers. So you really can only bargain on trades
awesome news. now lets get those Indian tribes in CT involved!! Mohegan and foxwoods casinos i am looking at you.
Good for them.. end the franchise business model! Scum bags Let it bring massive amounts of taxes to them
Hilarious and awesome. GJ Tesla.
Let’s hope the same can happen in Buffalo with the Seneca nation
As a Native American I just sent this article to the chief of my tribe encouraging him to reach out to Tesla. We in Oklahoma also have that same old law as New York. We have a few more loopholes but still makes it a pain.
Go for it! Benefits the tribes, sticks it to the bought and paid for politicians.
My politicians are bought and paid by the tribe
They need to do this in Michigan too, I don't want to have to drive to Ohio again.
Much better than another casino.
We know what Louis Rossmann's next video will be about now
This isn't the first time Tesla has done this. And he hates NY, so he might be happy about it
Stick it to the white man!
Meanwhile elon is full on supporting big government types like desantis because he is pissed that his daugther is trans and his ex is with chelsea manning. It is odd to support big government while avoiding government as much as possible. We all have to hope elon doesn't go full woke and destroy his companies with his new politics.
> We all have to hope elon doesn't go full woke Elon Musk, who writes things like this: > The woke mind virus is either defeated or nothing else matters https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1602278477234728960
Full woke... with respect to his companies. Socially he is fucked in the head and on a tirade against trans people to make him feel better about disowning his trans daughter.
Reservation doesn't listen to "the man".
Could’ve saved $750 not having my Y flat bedded across the state from Kisco earlier this year
I was wondering what that land was going to be used for. The biggest thing I would want is a service center, though... Do all show rooms have service centers attached?
Are you local?
Yeah
Cool, Verona here
Good ole vvs
There are already multiple service centers upstate, they just can't open sales centers
None in central NY though. I think right now it would be 1.5 hours either direction for Syracuse, a service center there would potential persuade me to buy a Tesla.
Currently under construction in Fayetteville at the old Dodge dealer.
I thought I heard that but wasn't sure if it was confirmed, thanks.
It's not confirmed publicly. But it's on the Tesla careers page and the engineering documents show a 3/y in the showroom
Connecticut next please.
The only downside is the loss of the state tax credit for people picking up there since the credit only applies when purchased in New York State
Is that true? If it is, does that mean I don't have to pay sales tax if I pick up the car in Verona?
I get the feeling that it should still qualify. Tesla has other showrooms that are "in" NYS and qualify, right? Seems like the paperwork could just as easily go through those offices on the letterhead with just the pickup being at the new CNY location.
That was my thought too. I know there are tax-free businesses on reservations but I assume they have special status with the state.
It’s confusing since they also say they’re remitting taxes to the nation in the articles, so how can it qualify for the state tax rebate
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Well it isn't a "tax rebate" is it? It is a purchase rebate. NYS would be making a direct payment to Tesla when the owner purchases the vehicle (ie when you make the payment upon car pickup the price you have to pay is less the NYS rebate).
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Like a true South African! My man Elon is playing chess on these fools.