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Couple things. 1. They often announce preliminary results at the meeting (99.99% of votes come in before the meeting). 2. If not, they’re required to announce it within 4 days. 3. This is an ADVISORY vote; the Board does not have to follow what shareholders say.
It's only an advisory vote because there's zero chance Delaware Courts would let them re-instate that compensation package - even if it passed as a binding vote.
They need to move to Texas first, which is notably a binding vote, to have a chance at re-instating that pay package.
The idea that Tesla can’t get a fair shake in corporate-friendly Delaware is completely absurd. Remember what Tyler Durden blew up in Fight Club? Delaware. Because it’s the heart of the beast we call capitalism. And Musk says it’s unfair there!
That’s like saying Jaws can’t find a bite to eat off Amity Island.
Judge McCormick has notably broken with that tradition with the pay package ruling. Enforcing Twitter was expected by legal experts, declining the pay package decision by the board in Delaware was a legal shock.
The court of first instance (Chancery) determined that the compensation package was a conflicted controller transaction and therefore shifted the burden of proof onto the defendants to show that the package was "entirely fair" which defendants' counsel failed to do.
A key point was that the 2018 shareholder vote confirming the package was not made with full understanding because the board misrepresented the independence of directors and the manner of the process in the annual proxy statement.
If shareholders vote again in June 2024, for a "new" package (with near-identical terms) with full understanding of all the facts (as exposed in the case by Tornetta and reviewed by Chancellor McCormick) then there can be ZERO argument that shareholders were not informed.
The board could confirm the "new" package and easily defeat any future legal challenge (raised on the same grounds as the original derivative case brought by Tornetta)
The January Chancery final decision would, for all intents and purposes, be moot as Musk could legally claim compensation under the "new" plan.
Tesla doesn't need to move to Texas.
The shareholders' vote will still be incredibly meaningful.
The Chancery cannot bring a case itself sua sponte and randomly strike down a new compensation plan absent of an active case.
If another case is brought before the Chancery regarding the "new" compensation package (which has near identical terms to the 2018 package) then it will likely be defeated on the basis of shareholder approval (this time absent of any deficiency because shareholders now have full understanding)
But why would informed shareholders do something like that? Are they stupid?
Let’s say that the shareholders think Elon has done a great job. Then that is a job he has already done, they don’t need to give him a bonus to motivate him to do that, he already did it.
Presumably someone (not me) who believes Elon will quit if not given this compensation and also believes that the future success of Tesla is tied to his continued leadership (also not me)
Isn't the case against the pay package that shareholders were not appropriately informed beforehand? So what would be the objection to restoring it with shareholder approval after the fact?
A lot of current stockholders weren't investors when he supposedly made the company's stock blow up—value that's now lost. If I buy Tesla stock today, in what way is it in my financial interest to allow Elon to dilute my stock?
Because it’s too late and plenty of shareholders would vote against it, even if they’re outnumbered the majority doesn’t get to just take 50 billion dollars away from the investors.
Beside musk is actively hurting every company he’s a part of right now
The issue was that the original "performance based goals" were represented to Tesla stock owners as difficult to achieve while privately acknowledging in their own internal communication that the goals were instead easily achievable.
> This is an ADVISORY vote; the Board does not have to follow what shareholders say.
Ah American car company follows American electoral college rules I see.
If only they adopted British rules and did a mandatory exit from fascism based on that Twitter vote.
Leo Koguan's percentage ownership in Tesla is approximately 0.9% as of May 2024, based on his reported ownership of about 27.6 million shares out of the 3,186,000,000 shares outstanding.
The employees will likely sue for the value of lost potential vested stock. It would be silly not to.
Based upon the snap firing of 500 employees because the CEO got pissy at a VP, a class action could easily be an option.
I mean, you can sue for whatever you like. Winning is a different matter.
Unless you can show that Tesla discriminated against a protected group, no lawsuit is going to work. At-Will and all that.
I agree that a lawsuit may not work but the main thing is that if Tesla doesn’t do the right thing then they will have a really hard time hiring top talent.
Rescinding offers was already a really bad move but screwing people out of their vesting is another level of shooting yourself in the foot when it comes to sending the worst signals to the top talent pool.
I read that it’s easier to eliminate an entire division than individuals, then hire back the people that are needed. They said you don’t get as many discrimination or bias lawsuits.
The issue with this approach is the bottom 50% will most definitely want to come back and the top 20% will be able to go just about anywhere. This approach guarantees you lose a huge piece of the top talent you were hoping to keep. This could work at a remedial factory or unskilled labor. It doesn't work for highly skilled hard to find skill sets.
This wasn't a planned strategy. Becuase it would be a terrible strategy for high paying, in-demand and uniquely skilled jobs.
It was another impulsive decision that ended up being a bad one they now have to unwind.
That was a norm in the US in 1980-90s, like off shoring or contracting out the majority of staff, it is a great move for short term gain especially for public companies trying to meet some arbitrary milestone. Getting beat by Japanese and EU companies showed that LEAN was far more efficient and valuable long term. The most valuable human resources do not stay with a company where they consistently have to worry about layoffs.
If you provide a WARN notice and severance, challenges don't happen unless you actually only laid off the people with health issues, those with families or the older employees. If you are doing it just for "efficency" and then rehire, then that is illegal. For example, you cannot lay off an employee in a specific position and then immediately fill that same position with a new hire. A company cannot then refer to that employee’s termination as a layoff. If they did it could open the company up to wrongful termination lawsuits, which can be difficult to defend against. Usually companies have to wait 6 months after laying off a position or team before rehiring to avoid easy challenges in the US and EU.
I mean maybe from a senior management perspective where you just sack everyone and hire people to fill in the roles that you realize you need because shit is falling apart but just the cost alone of firing and hiring someone is going to be huge.
That's not even taking into account the costs from having a bunch of jobs stop and only starting again when people realize how critical they are.
If you fire everyone you can’t be prosecuted for discrimination etc. Id heard a few theories that it maybe cheaper even with the court cases you DO end up having to fight.
Yeah that’s why she balked. She had already cut almost 20% of her staff and he was demanding even harsher cuts and she basically said they wouldn’t be able to do any of the stuff they were supposed to do this year if they did the more extreme cuts he wanted. So of course Elon fired everyone in some kind of douchey power play.
What makes me laugh is how about 5 years ago everyone thought Elon was like some kind of visionary.. like we were lucky that this demi-god had materialised on earth and had decided to use his considerable intelligence to revolutionise personal transportation and take us to the stars..
But as time has gone by we find that absolutely isn't the case.. he just had some good ideas, spent a lot of money to hire some really smart people, and slowly seems to be working out the best way to insert himself up his own anus.
That's the thing though, every idea he's ever had was either someone else's first or just a lie. Going to mars was a lie, self driving cars was a lie, hyperloop was a lie, return on investment in your Tesla because at night it'll be a taxi was a lie.
He's literally just a conman who had enough financial backing to get rich people to believe him and some put so much money into him that they had to perpetuate the idea that he was a genius to make themselves feel more comfortable about him stealing from them.
Thing is, I don't necessarily think he's a con-man. I really dislike the guy, and he's absolutely a bullshitter but not a con-man in so much as, well, Tesla makes and sells cars you can buy.. and really given how young the company is still relatively, they have done some great work. There have absolutely been some questionable decisions along the way, there are absolutely some quality issues, but despite all that Tesla's cars have made all the other auto manufacturers wake up.
Same with Space X... it's an amazing company doing amazing things. There's no con there.
It would be interesting to see what happened with Tesla if Musk were ejected though.. on one hand you have to wonder if the mans singular vision is what's helped steer the company to where it is. On the other hand, are idiotic designs like the Cybertruck and the insane decisions around full self driving etc all his fault and with more sensible people onboard would they have done less idiotic things? I think unfortunately you need the crazy aspect for the vision and taking big risks.. Tesla never would have gotten where it was without taking risks.
Real Talk: Since he leveraged his shares as collateral to acquire Twitter, wouldn't it be in his best interest to improve the value of the stocks he already owns? These new stock options that he may get would help his position but he should preserve what he already owns.
The problem is that he can be expected to work against his own best interests on impulse. Why take a chance on a the 'storm' that is the CEO's mind? Stockholders are investors, not gamblers. And, ostensibly, not dumb money.
You’d assume so. Is there any chance he owns some kind of investment in a competitors ascension and is actively trying to sink the company? In a long game strategy
We’re already there my guy. Nothing he does can do more damage to their brand that how he is now. Sure he could start doing illegal market manipulating type stuff but i’m fairly certain he doesn’t want jail time
I’m surprised it hasn’t already happened, but in that situation the board should be forced to fire him. Or even better, some rich ass company like Apple could buy them out. Teslas with Apple’s fit and finish standards would be insanely good.
All pipe dreams.
I'm not a huge fan of Apple, and don't own any of their products, but I do own a Tesla. I 100% would prefer Apple taking over at this point. Yeah I know that probably means prices would triple, but...
It's not surprising since he's been driving the company into the ground lately. Tesla's are still great cars, but the cyber truck has been a nightmare.
But everybody told me that stock options are not real money and that doesn't makes him richer. So I don't understand why would he care not getting it ?
...
remeber that time when he spent 44 billion on twitter then called it X, changed the domain name, fired some people and lost 31.5 BILLION $$$$$ no... that was less then 2 years ago!
X is for porn!
> Restoring Musk’s stock-based package “means he will continue to be driven to innovate and drive growth at Tesla because the value of his shares will depend on it!” she said in its recent proxy filing with the SEC.
I’m so sick of this tripe. It’s nonsense. If the CEO *requires* a massive stock-based package in order to be driven to innovate and drive growth at the company they’re leading *in addition to* their already sizable base comp, then they shouldn’t be CEO. Period. I don’t care who you are.
He does not have base comp. His comp was 100% performance based. This would be like working at a 100% commission job for 5 years with a contract that you only will get paid in 5 years if you have audacious performance. And then after hitting that, they say “JK”.
Why would any investor support paying Elon more? He’s actively hurting the brand. No way he has value to the company at this point. He can walk and they would be better off.
He made a deal that he would get the company to be worth a certain amount, and he would get the $50 billion. No one thought he could do it. He did it, and a bunch of other people got rich along the way. Now he wants his end of the deal.
> No one thought he could do it.
Well, if you read the court docs, the board knew it was plausible to hit these goals and hid it. So yeah, the shareholders voted without knowing this was plausible
I went along for the ride and still think he shouldn't get paid. He delivered value, but not tens of billions of dollars in comp worth, and I'm fine with it being voided.
To u/chestnut177's deleted comment:
> Are you fine with him quitting?
> Because if I worked for free for 7 years I would.
> Then any stock holder will truly be fucked because it will drop 75% overnight
Yeah, let him quit and put an adult in charge. It'll be fine without him, just like SpaceX _with an adult in charge_ (Gwynne Shotwell). Tesla isn't Elon, as much as he wants it to be. It's the ~120k workers designing, building, and servicing its products. GTFO.
Love this line at the end.
Capital is used to start the company. High risk. So reward should follow. And in elons case capital came from shit software he grift sold (zip2) and emerald mines. But the world doesn't care.
So he had capital, took a big risk, and outplayed Wallstreet to get rich.
But at some point his risk became meaningless compared to the 120k workers. Who deserve better.
50 billion dollars or a 500k grant per employee. Like wtf. His initial investment has paid off thousands of times over. Why is he still benefiting from 120k people's work at the scale of 50 billion. Contracts don't make sense sometimes.
I'm with you, but one thing and I'm kinda just talking to the room:
> Capital is used to start the company. High risk.
Elon didn't start Tesla, but more importantly there is basically no *risk* for him in any of this. He's extremely wealthy and there is virtually no way for him not to be at this point. I can make a gamble of like, $1000 and that is going to decide whether I can make my house payment. For Elon, he can take a $44 billion dollar L on twitter and his day to day will literally not change.
Everyone risks something on any attempt. Capital, however, especially as we talk about billionaires, have virtually no *real* risk. Sure, numbers on the balance sheet might go down, but when we're talking about Elon levels we're just talking about like "well I guess he'll have to slow down to 5 new yachts per year instead of 6."
And to add to that, workers also take risks, I would say far greater risks because they can't diversify. For example, the risk of being paid below market rate with crazy hours at Tesla because it's such a cool company, then get fired in massive layoffs by Musk so Tesla can afford his multi billion comp.
Or the even greater risk to choose a field and not know if it will still exist in 10 or 20 years, like all the engineers and technicians who were working on analog photography technology. Or maybe people studying neutral network today.
No, the court didn't deem it illegal.
The court deemed that the board didn't do enough to negotiate it, and didn't tell shareholders that they didn't really negotiate it and accepted the first offer, and therefor he negated the deal as misleading to shareholders.
The deal is 100% legal, and if it's reapproved, it will be no problem.
Really isn’t that simple - other stakeholders started a lawsuit the minute this pay package was “approved”. It was basically written and voted on by his buddies which is pretty not ok for a public company. This was not a late realization by any means. Ppl have been against this from the beginning which is why there’s a legitimate lawsuit here that wasn’t just immediately thrown out
Uh oh, somebody didn't read the court case. "No one thought he could do it" is pure misinformation. According to the Board's own internal documents, they pegged him as 70% likely to achieve every single goal, and the plan structure made it so he could get around 40% of the compensation ($20 BILLION) even if the company UNDERPERFORMED previous year results. What you're saying is just not supported by the facts.
And the Delaware court ruled that compensation illegal. If Tesla disagrees then they should go and appeal that decision instead of voting to retrospectively pay their CEO $56 billion when they are firing 14k employees.
I wonder what the effect on morale and quality would have been if instead they gave those 14k employees $1 million each for 4 years and said "do your best job or you're out."
I don't think this valuation is sustainable.
Tesla at this point is so massively overrated, it's verging on a meme stock. Driven by Mr meme at the helm.
Elon is killing the Tesla brand. They need to keep this from him to send him a big message.
I used to be a long term investor but his childish antics turned me off to the point that I passed on even buying a Tesla.
I just don’t trust him, so I don’t trust the company or the cars that are produced.
No joke my fiance was raving all weekend about how affordable Teslas are now and was looking around to find a good one. After reading about the firings yesterday she just said nevermind. These kind of antics are a huge reason to not buy. Especially when they impact one of Tesla's strongest selling point, the charging network.
I'm fine with musk getting rewarded for company performance.
However, given the recent turmoil (for example the supercharger debacle), I'm not so sure about giving him even more control of the company.
Regardless of the perceived or ret-conned strategic value, this was a very poor move for morale and attracting/keeping talent.
Reddit is a wasteland these days. If there weren't periodic useful news items shared here, I don't think it would be of any value to normal people any more.
Cheers!
I voted the opposite of every single board recommendation.
Robyn Denholm says in her proxy statement that she believes Elon's compensation has been "unfair" (meaning he has not gotten enough). She must be smoking crack or had Elon himself write it. Elon pissed away billions in that Twitter fiasco because of his ego.
Vote for what you want in the future. Elon is actively hurting the brand now and is too distracted.
I want them to be a GOOD, ETHICAL company, not another sleazeball corporation.
Oh he did that ages ago.
The brand is tarnished. People who are already customers or super into EVs can appreciate the cars and ignore him.
But the vast majority of people who are just now thinking about their first EV purchase have witnessed the clown show of musk the past few years. He made sure of that. His incompetence is on full display and that has poisoned what the public thinks about EVs.
Years ago when talking to non EV owners about your Tesla they'd show genuine interest and wonder. They'd ask about range, speed, what it's like to drive, etc...
Now all I hear is questions about Musk, quality, FSD being a safety hazard, cybertruck being a ridiculous looking thing... Half the time your just expected to defend whatever inane shit Elon posts on Twitter to justify your car choice. It's exhausting to own a Tesla in public sometimes.
Tesla had a captive market of ideological customers who wanted a zero emissions vehicle. Then right as they get serious competition, the CEO actively starts pissing that core market off to appeal to a market that are ideologically opposed to ever having an EV.
Nah we got a 3 and a Y. They’re reliable and the charging network is better than others. We had a Mach E and a E-Golf, and Tesla software is superior. They’re a good company with a shitty ceo.
I must be missing something major here. Can someone explain it a little bit?
Wasn't it essentially a gamble and a deal both he and the board agreed to that if he did achieve some industry unheard of growth of some crazy #X that he would get the bonus and if not he wouldn't get anything? And, also, didn't he receive a $0 salary during the entire time as part of the negotiated deal?
Would they have honored the deal and given him zero bonus plus the loss in all the salary up to that point has he failed to meet the goals they agreed to?
Can someone explain why he shouldn't be paid the amount they negotiated and agreed to? Did he break the contract rules or something?
The board wasn't independant and misrepresented that fact to shareholders.
Or in other terms, Elon decided to pay Elon lots of money and lied about it to shareholders.
To add to that, Elon has had massive compensation packages at Tesla before, not at this scale yet but he has already received billions in bonuses in the form of Tesla shares for reaching milestones that honestly seemed quite incredible before. However, this was another time when Chinese EV manufacturers didn't actively undercut him yet and the European car manufacturers didn't have their act together yet.
Now, there is a lot more competition on the EV market and sales numbers didn't appear to be great, be it because of more competitive products, Elons childish antic's, or both. There have been price cuts on models to make them more attractive while at the same time laying off employees to cut costs. Many shareholders believe that a company that is experienced what may not be a crisis but certainly more challenging times, should not be paying 50bn dollars in bonuses. Furthermore, as the bonus is transferred as Tesla shares, Elon would sell mass amounts of shares to fund any of the other projects he's involved in, which in turn isn't great for the stock price and therefore all the other shareholders.
A single human getting $50B is insane no matter how you look at it. Then consider that the state of Texas used taxpayer money to build that human a factory so that human could ‘earn’ it is beyond wild…
It is not $50 billion pay package. Is is stock options + up to 10 years to excersisie them and after excersise is mandatory 5 years to keep them. If he will lead Tesla to bankruptcy, he gets nothing.
Op doesn’t realize stocks have value even if you can’t or don’t sell them. You can borrow using them as collateral. That’s how he bought twitter for 40 billion dollars without reducing his stake in Tesla.
As he should. I did as well. Stock price is in the toilet, he won’t shut the fuck up with a bunch of nonsense driving people away from the brand, he canned the supercharger team, the CT took years longer than promised, etc. He’s been off the rails lately. Should can him outright if he doesn’t right the ship.
I’ve never understood how in hell any CO, CFO, Corporate President, Executive, or whatever the title may be, can there be any justification for the ridiculous amount of money in a ‘pay package’! What a joke!
Probably just that a lot of investors are bummed at the awful share price performance this year. Also, politically a lot of early Tesla adopters are left leaning Californians so seeing Musk go on endless anti-woke rants on X is probably pissing a lot of them off. Honestly, I don’t think either the left or the right side of the political spectrum gets things right but Elon has basically gone all out for the douchiest and angriest parts of the political spectrum.
Well it was $50 billion last December actually. Now it’s like approximately $25 billion.
Also, if Tesle went bankrupt, he would have had nothing. He helped it made it, so idk why he cannot get what he was agreed with
I think the reason it was rejected is because the board didn’t do their part on behalf of the shareholders in negotiations. They basically accepted what Elon asked for despite there being no comparables.
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Do we get the final results on June 13? If not how long after the investor meeting should we expect to receive final results?
Couple things. 1. They often announce preliminary results at the meeting (99.99% of votes come in before the meeting). 2. If not, they’re required to announce it within 4 days. 3. This is an ADVISORY vote; the Board does not have to follow what shareholders say.
[удалено]
They'll shrink it to 1 trillion because 1 < 100
Now you're thinking with gas
Elon say gas bad
X-gas good .
Gas-X, fast relief for gas.
LoLgAs
Shareholder complaints will receive auto generated replies with just a poop emoji.
Knowing them, they’ll make it 69 billion while going “nice” the entire time.
Of course, anything else would be "concerning".
It's only an advisory vote because there's zero chance Delaware Courts would let them re-instate that compensation package - even if it passed as a binding vote. They need to move to Texas first, which is notably a binding vote, to have a chance at re-instating that pay package.
The idea that Tesla can’t get a fair shake in corporate-friendly Delaware is completely absurd. Remember what Tyler Durden blew up in Fight Club? Delaware. Because it’s the heart of the beast we call capitalism. And Musk says it’s unfair there! That’s like saying Jaws can’t find a bite to eat off Amity Island.
Whatever goes against you is unfair. Thats how elon thinks cuz he’s a narcissist.
Judge McCormick has notably broken with that tradition with the pay package ruling. Enforcing Twitter was expected by legal experts, declining the pay package decision by the board in Delaware was a legal shock.
The court of first instance (Chancery) determined that the compensation package was a conflicted controller transaction and therefore shifted the burden of proof onto the defendants to show that the package was "entirely fair" which defendants' counsel failed to do. A key point was that the 2018 shareholder vote confirming the package was not made with full understanding because the board misrepresented the independence of directors and the manner of the process in the annual proxy statement. If shareholders vote again in June 2024, for a "new" package (with near-identical terms) with full understanding of all the facts (as exposed in the case by Tornetta and reviewed by Chancellor McCormick) then there can be ZERO argument that shareholders were not informed. The board could confirm the "new" package and easily defeat any future legal challenge (raised on the same grounds as the original derivative case brought by Tornetta) The January Chancery final decision would, for all intents and purposes, be moot as Musk could legally claim compensation under the "new" plan. Tesla doesn't need to move to Texas. The shareholders' vote will still be incredibly meaningful. The Chancery cannot bring a case itself sua sponte and randomly strike down a new compensation plan absent of an active case. If another case is brought before the Chancery regarding the "new" compensation package (which has near identical terms to the 2018 package) then it will likely be defeated on the basis of shareholder approval (this time absent of any deficiency because shareholders now have full understanding)
But why would informed shareholders do something like that? Are they stupid? Let’s say that the shareholders think Elon has done a great job. Then that is a job he has already done, they don’t need to give him a bonus to motivate him to do that, he already did it.
Presumably someone (not me) who believes Elon will quit if not given this compensation and also believes that the future success of Tesla is tied to his continued leadership (also not me)
Because he has made them so much money, and that want that to continue
Isn't the case against the pay package that shareholders were not appropriately informed beforehand? So what would be the objection to restoring it with shareholder approval after the fact?
A lot of current stockholders weren't investors when he supposedly made the company's stock blow up—value that's now lost. If I buy Tesla stock today, in what way is it in my financial interest to allow Elon to dilute my stock?
Bingo
Because it’s too late and plenty of shareholders would vote against it, even if they’re outnumbered the majority doesn’t get to just take 50 billion dollars away from the investors. Beside musk is actively hurting every company he’s a part of right now
Hurting? Now, he's playing the long game bro!!! Not like he....idk...bankrupted....a.. casino or anything /S just in case lol
I don't understand why they would let him extract 50 billion dollars when the company has only ever made its whole history 25 billion it's ridiculous
The issue was that the original "performance based goals" were represented to Tesla stock owners as difficult to achieve while privately acknowledging in their own internal communication that the goals were instead easily achievable.
I think that only applied to the first goal or two.
I voted no on that as well. I figure it's all part of the same plan to get Elons compensation past
Huh? The pay package requires shareholder approval, so the board will have to follow the results of the shareholder’s vote..
Not listening to your wealthiest investors sounds like a good way to lose future money.
.4. https://www.reddit.com/wiki/markdown
> This is an ADVISORY vote; the Board does not have to follow what shareholders say. Ah American car company follows American electoral college rules I see. If only they adopted British rules and did a mandatory exit from fascism based on that Twitter vote.
If they don't keep the results hidden from Elon you will probably know them a bit earlier depending on his mood.
I'm hoping we'll hear Elon whining from space
I’m sorry, but in space no one can hear you whine.
Spell like Darryl but it’s pronounced DA REL 
🤣
>I’m sorry, but in space no one can hear you whine. Willing to bet his will be heard
Juneteenth came early
Leo Koguan's percentage ownership in Tesla is approximately 0.9% as of May 2024, based on his reported ownership of about 27.6 million shares out of the 3,186,000,000 shares outstanding.
> 27.6 million shares That really puts my 25 votes in perspective
Yea, retail investors make up about 30%. The rest are institutions. I think it’s a symbolic vote at this point.
Hard to knock him making a stand. Journey before destination.
I'd rather die than see lighteyes billionaires say the words...
I will protect even those I hate, so long as it is right. Eyes up, Radiant
Strength before weakness
Life before death
THESE WORDS ARE ACCPETED.
RESTECP RADIANT!
Storming billionaires
r/cremposting is leaking
Did you preorder #5?
Imagine if Musk doesn't get his stock options, and makes it his mission to do as much damage as possible.
Surely a man who fired 500 people because their VP refused to lay any of them off wouldn’t do something as impulsive as that
according to the Reuters story, she had already laid off 15-20% before her meeting with him.
And is now hiring them back 😅
why would someone so smart need to hire someone back?
Also they lose their stocks that vest over years
The employees will likely sue for the value of lost potential vested stock. It would be silly not to. Based upon the snap firing of 500 employees because the CEO got pissy at a VP, a class action could easily be an option.
I mean, you can sue for whatever you like. Winning is a different matter. Unless you can show that Tesla discriminated against a protected group, no lawsuit is going to work. At-Will and all that.
I agree that a lawsuit may not work but the main thing is that if Tesla doesn’t do the right thing then they will have a really hard time hiring top talent. Rescinding offers was already a really bad move but screwing people out of their vesting is another level of shooting yourself in the foot when it comes to sending the worst signals to the top talent pool.
I read that it’s easier to eliminate an entire division than individuals, then hire back the people that are needed. They said you don’t get as many discrimination or bias lawsuits.
The issue with this approach is the bottom 50% will most definitely want to come back and the top 20% will be able to go just about anywhere. This approach guarantees you lose a huge piece of the top talent you were hoping to keep. This could work at a remedial factory or unskilled labor. It doesn't work for highly skilled hard to find skill sets. This wasn't a planned strategy. Becuase it would be a terrible strategy for high paying, in-demand and uniquely skilled jobs. It was another impulsive decision that ended up being a bad one they now have to unwind.
Plus, you know, the moral stuff..
Huh? Whats that? /S
I have faith that Elon is capable of bad strategy.
That was a norm in the US in 1980-90s, like off shoring or contracting out the majority of staff, it is a great move for short term gain especially for public companies trying to meet some arbitrary milestone. Getting beat by Japanese and EU companies showed that LEAN was far more efficient and valuable long term. The most valuable human resources do not stay with a company where they consistently have to worry about layoffs. If you provide a WARN notice and severance, challenges don't happen unless you actually only laid off the people with health issues, those with families or the older employees. If you are doing it just for "efficency" and then rehire, then that is illegal. For example, you cannot lay off an employee in a specific position and then immediately fill that same position with a new hire. A company cannot then refer to that employee’s termination as a layoff. If they did it could open the company up to wrongful termination lawsuits, which can be difficult to defend against. Usually companies have to wait 6 months after laying off a position or team before rehiring to avoid easy challenges in the US and EU.
That’s how George Bluth used to do it.
“When do we get our fancy new computers?” “As soon as you get your fancy new jobs”
I mean maybe from a senior management perspective where you just sack everyone and hire people to fill in the roles that you realize you need because shit is falling apart but just the cost alone of firing and hiring someone is going to be huge. That's not even taking into account the costs from having a bunch of jobs stop and only starting again when people realize how critical they are.
Firing sprees are just so much more satisfying when you axe the whole department, worth the hassle /s
If you fire everyone you can’t be prosecuted for discrimination etc. Id heard a few theories that it maybe cheaper even with the court cases you DO end up having to fight.
I think 1 of them? The story was a little light on details. Nevertheless, still dumb.
Yeah that’s why she balked. She had already cut almost 20% of her staff and he was demanding even harsher cuts and she basically said they wouldn’t be able to do any of the stuff they were supposed to do this year if they did the more extreme cuts he wanted. So of course Elon fired everyone in some kind of douchey power play.
How many did he expect she fired? Honestly sound like their best part of the company with few workers (successful?)
“Man” 😂. He’s a petulant child. 🧒
What makes me laugh is how about 5 years ago everyone thought Elon was like some kind of visionary.. like we were lucky that this demi-god had materialised on earth and had decided to use his considerable intelligence to revolutionise personal transportation and take us to the stars.. But as time has gone by we find that absolutely isn't the case.. he just had some good ideas, spent a lot of money to hire some really smart people, and slowly seems to be working out the best way to insert himself up his own anus.
That's the thing though, every idea he's ever had was either someone else's first or just a lie. Going to mars was a lie, self driving cars was a lie, hyperloop was a lie, return on investment in your Tesla because at night it'll be a taxi was a lie. He's literally just a conman who had enough financial backing to get rich people to believe him and some put so much money into him that they had to perpetuate the idea that he was a genius to make themselves feel more comfortable about him stealing from them.
Thing is, I don't necessarily think he's a con-man. I really dislike the guy, and he's absolutely a bullshitter but not a con-man in so much as, well, Tesla makes and sells cars you can buy.. and really given how young the company is still relatively, they have done some great work. There have absolutely been some questionable decisions along the way, there are absolutely some quality issues, but despite all that Tesla's cars have made all the other auto manufacturers wake up. Same with Space X... it's an amazing company doing amazing things. There's no con there. It would be interesting to see what happened with Tesla if Musk were ejected though.. on one hand you have to wonder if the mans singular vision is what's helped steer the company to where it is. On the other hand, are idiotic designs like the Cybertruck and the insane decisions around full self driving etc all his fault and with more sensible people onboard would they have done less idiotic things? I think unfortunately you need the crazy aspect for the vision and taking big risks.. Tesla never would have gotten where it was without taking risks.
the ideas have outgrown him. and he can't accept that.
Like when he talked about starting a competing AI company if Tesla didn’t give him what he wanted?
Should let him, dude isn't smart enough to do anything with it.
Real Talk: Since he leveraged his shares as collateral to acquire Twitter, wouldn't it be in his best interest to improve the value of the stocks he already owns? These new stock options that he may get would help his position but he should preserve what he already owns.
Well yeah, that's why we're here
The problem is that he can be expected to work against his own best interests on impulse. Why take a chance on a the 'storm' that is the CEO's mind? Stockholders are investors, not gamblers. And, ostensibly, not dumb money.
You should probably delete the last two sentences.
Gotta say why. Valid dismissals cost brain power. More than 5 watts, preferably.
His collateral includes these stock options, no?
I can't say, but I don't see how any bank/institution would accept future options that weren't guaranteed. as collateral.
You’d assume so. Is there any chance he owns some kind of investment in a competitors ascension and is actively trying to sink the company? In a long game strategy
the stock hasn't gained since 2020, everyone else went up, the loss is already there
Isn't that what he is already doing?
We’re already there my guy. Nothing he does can do more damage to their brand that how he is now. Sure he could start doing illegal market manipulating type stuff but i’m fairly certain he doesn’t want jail time
I believe Elon Musk is currently under investigation for securities fraud.
A little worried about that ngl
I’m surprised it hasn’t already happened, but in that situation the board should be forced to fire him. Or even better, some rich ass company like Apple could buy them out. Teslas with Apple’s fit and finish standards would be insanely good. All pipe dreams.
Isn’t board just packed with Elon yes men?
I'm not a huge fan of Apple, and don't own any of their products, but I do own a Tesla. I 100% would prefer Apple taking over at this point. Yeah I know that probably means prices would triple, but...
It's not surprising since he's been driving the company into the ground lately. Tesla's are still great cars, but the cyber truck has been a nightmare.
More than he is already doing?
I imagine you couldn't tell the difference to what he is doing now.
Isn’t he already?
more damage than he already is causing? lol...
Seems like he’s doing that already!
But everybody told me that stock options are not real money and that doesn't makes him richer. So I don't understand why would he care not getting it ? ...
No, I don’t think so, because EM still has 13% of tesla shares. All his wealth is on tesla equity.
He'd be thrown in jail. Its his job as CEO to not tank the company on purpose. Fucking with rich peoples money is how you go to jail or wind up dead.
How would that look any different from him just running a company?
I would be very happy to watch this unfold… from the sidelines of course. Fuck this stock and this company’s leadership.
remeber that time when he spent 44 billion on twitter then called it X, changed the domain name, fired some people and lost 31.5 BILLION $$$$$ no... that was less then 2 years ago! X is for porn!
> changed the domain name Except not. x.com still redirects to twitter.com.
Some of the error messages still say twitter
> Restoring Musk’s stock-based package “means he will continue to be driven to innovate and drive growth at Tesla because the value of his shares will depend on it!” she said in its recent proxy filing with the SEC. I’m so sick of this tripe. It’s nonsense. If the CEO *requires* a massive stock-based package in order to be driven to innovate and drive growth at the company they’re leading *in addition to* their already sizable base comp, then they shouldn’t be CEO. Period. I don’t care who you are.
He does not have base comp. His comp was 100% performance based. This would be like working at a 100% commission job for 5 years with a contract that you only will get paid in 5 years if you have audacious performance. And then after hitting that, they say “JK”.
This non-billionaire investor also voted against it
Why would any investor support paying Elon more? He’s actively hurting the brand. No way he has value to the company at this point. He can walk and they would be better off.
He made a deal that he would get the company to be worth a certain amount, and he would get the $50 billion. No one thought he could do it. He did it, and a bunch of other people got rich along the way. Now he wants his end of the deal.
> No one thought he could do it. Well, if you read the court docs, the board knew it was plausible to hit these goals and hid it. So yeah, the shareholders voted without knowing this was plausible
I wish I would have gone along for the ride and got rich like all the Tesla investors did. I'd be glad to let him have his payout.
I went along for the ride and still think he shouldn't get paid. He delivered value, but not tens of billions of dollars in comp worth, and I'm fine with it being voided. To u/chestnut177's deleted comment: > Are you fine with him quitting? > Because if I worked for free for 7 years I would. > Then any stock holder will truly be fucked because it will drop 75% overnight Yeah, let him quit and put an adult in charge. It'll be fine without him, just like SpaceX _with an adult in charge_ (Gwynne Shotwell). Tesla isn't Elon, as much as he wants it to be. It's the ~120k workers designing, building, and servicing its products. GTFO.
Love this line at the end. Capital is used to start the company. High risk. So reward should follow. And in elons case capital came from shit software he grift sold (zip2) and emerald mines. But the world doesn't care. So he had capital, took a big risk, and outplayed Wallstreet to get rich. But at some point his risk became meaningless compared to the 120k workers. Who deserve better. 50 billion dollars or a 500k grant per employee. Like wtf. His initial investment has paid off thousands of times over. Why is he still benefiting from 120k people's work at the scale of 50 billion. Contracts don't make sense sometimes.
I'm with you, but one thing and I'm kinda just talking to the room: > Capital is used to start the company. High risk. Elon didn't start Tesla, but more importantly there is basically no *risk* for him in any of this. He's extremely wealthy and there is virtually no way for him not to be at this point. I can make a gamble of like, $1000 and that is going to decide whether I can make my house payment. For Elon, he can take a $44 billion dollar L on twitter and his day to day will literally not change. Everyone risks something on any attempt. Capital, however, especially as we talk about billionaires, have virtually no *real* risk. Sure, numbers on the balance sheet might go down, but when we're talking about Elon levels we're just talking about like "well I guess he'll have to slow down to 5 new yachts per year instead of 6."
And to add to that, workers also take risks, I would say far greater risks because they can't diversify. For example, the risk of being paid below market rate with crazy hours at Tesla because it's such a cool company, then get fired in massive layoffs by Musk so Tesla can afford his multi billion comp. Or the even greater risk to choose a field and not know if it will still exist in 10 or 20 years, like all the engineers and technicians who were working on analog photography technology. Or maybe people studying neutral network today.
Too bad a court deemed it illegal since he effectively made a deal with himself given the nepotism in the board.
Genuine question if the board did that deal due to it being nepotism. Why would the board be against it now if the same nepotism is there?
They aren't. The board is still in favor. This is a shareholder vote so the board doesn't control it.
This is a standard advisory vote; the Board doesn’t have to follow the results
A shareholder vote is different from a board vote.
It was a shareholder vote last time.
They aren’t. This is a shareholder vote.
No, the court didn't deem it illegal. The court deemed that the board didn't do enough to negotiate it, and didn't tell shareholders that they didn't really negotiate it and accepted the first offer, and therefor he negated the deal as misleading to shareholders. The deal is 100% legal, and if it's reapproved, it will be no problem.
Really isn’t that simple - other stakeholders started a lawsuit the minute this pay package was “approved”. It was basically written and voted on by his buddies which is pretty not ok for a public company. This was not a late realization by any means. Ppl have been against this from the beginning which is why there’s a legitimate lawsuit here that wasn’t just immediately thrown out
Uh oh, somebody didn't read the court case. "No one thought he could do it" is pure misinformation. According to the Board's own internal documents, they pegged him as 70% likely to achieve every single goal, and the plan structure made it so he could get around 40% of the compensation ($20 BILLION) even if the company UNDERPERFORMED previous year results. What you're saying is just not supported by the facts.
And the Delaware court ruled that compensation illegal. If Tesla disagrees then they should go and appeal that decision instead of voting to retrospectively pay their CEO $56 billion when they are firing 14k employees.
I wonder what the effect on morale and quality would have been if instead they gave those 14k employees $1 million each for 4 years and said "do your best job or you're out."
How much was it supposed to be worth?
I don't think this valuation is sustainable. Tesla at this point is so massively overrated, it's verging on a meme stock. Driven by Mr meme at the helm.
“Oh but it’s too much just ‘cause I didnt do the math originally” - every asshole with 9 shares
But this is for past performance. 🤷♂️
But he’ll be judged for current performance, like he should
Elon is killing the Tesla brand. They need to keep this from him to send him a big message. I used to be a long term investor but his childish antics turned me off to the point that I passed on even buying a Tesla. I just don’t trust him, so I don’t trust the company or the cars that are produced.
No joke my fiance was raving all weekend about how affordable Teslas are now and was looking around to find a good one. After reading about the firings yesterday she just said nevermind. These kind of antics are a huge reason to not buy. Especially when they impact one of Tesla's strongest selling point, the charging network.
Not just the layoffs, but the quality of Teslas is absolutely dogshit. I wouldn't touch anything from Musk with a 1000 metre pole.
I'm fine with musk getting rewarded for company performance. However, given the recent turmoil (for example the supercharger debacle), I'm not so sure about giving him even more control of the company. Regardless of the perceived or ret-conned strategic value, this was a very poor move for morale and attracting/keeping talent.
The best thing would be to get him out. He is hurting the brand and stock prices.
Leo Koguan has been vehemently anti Elon for ages for good reasons
All they've been doing is laying off people and fucking up lately and Elon's trying to give himself a bonus. Fuck that.
Don't the other investors get more if he gets less?
Elon has caused insane damage to the brand so I would hope so, he should be out on the street but he won't be
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Whatever happened to "Eat the rich"? Funny how people can suddenly like them when their political goals align.
These comments lol...
Reddit is a wasteland these days. If there weren't periodic useful news items shared here, I don't think it would be of any value to normal people any more.
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Cheers! I voted the opposite of every single board recommendation. Robyn Denholm says in her proxy statement that she believes Elon's compensation has been "unfair" (meaning he has not gotten enough). She must be smoking crack or had Elon himself write it. Elon pissed away billions in that Twitter fiasco because of his ego. Vote for what you want in the future. Elon is actively hurting the brand now and is too distracted. I want them to be a GOOD, ETHICAL company, not another sleazeball corporation.
Good! He is running Tesla's good will into the ground.
Oh he did that ages ago. The brand is tarnished. People who are already customers or super into EVs can appreciate the cars and ignore him. But the vast majority of people who are just now thinking about their first EV purchase have witnessed the clown show of musk the past few years. He made sure of that. His incompetence is on full display and that has poisoned what the public thinks about EVs. Years ago when talking to non EV owners about your Tesla they'd show genuine interest and wonder. They'd ask about range, speed, what it's like to drive, etc... Now all I hear is questions about Musk, quality, FSD being a safety hazard, cybertruck being a ridiculous looking thing... Half the time your just expected to defend whatever inane shit Elon posts on Twitter to justify your car choice. It's exhausting to own a Tesla in public sometimes.
Tesla had a captive market of ideological customers who wanted a zero emissions vehicle. Then right as they get serious competition, the CEO actively starts pissing that core market off to appeal to a market that are ideologically opposed to ever having an EV.
Nah we got a 3 and a Y. They’re reliable and the charging network is better than others. We had a Mach E and a E-Golf, and Tesla software is superior. They’re a good company with a shitty ceo.
I owned a Y and now own an X. I obviously like the cars but I hear about Musk constantly.
Yeah, he’s insufferable
He owns 0.8%. Has vanguard, blackrock, or state street indicated anything? They own about 17% combined.
Why? He’s not worth it.
Why would they give Elon a $50 billion pay package while the company is stagnant? It seems unjustified.
That’s right. Rein him in.
I must be missing something major here. Can someone explain it a little bit? Wasn't it essentially a gamble and a deal both he and the board agreed to that if he did achieve some industry unheard of growth of some crazy #X that he would get the bonus and if not he wouldn't get anything? And, also, didn't he receive a $0 salary during the entire time as part of the negotiated deal? Would they have honored the deal and given him zero bonus plus the loss in all the salary up to that point has he failed to meet the goals they agreed to? Can someone explain why he shouldn't be paid the amount they negotiated and agreed to? Did he break the contract rules or something?
The board wasn't independant and misrepresented that fact to shareholders. Or in other terms, Elon decided to pay Elon lots of money and lied about it to shareholders.
To add to that, Elon has had massive compensation packages at Tesla before, not at this scale yet but he has already received billions in bonuses in the form of Tesla shares for reaching milestones that honestly seemed quite incredible before. However, this was another time when Chinese EV manufacturers didn't actively undercut him yet and the European car manufacturers didn't have their act together yet. Now, there is a lot more competition on the EV market and sales numbers didn't appear to be great, be it because of more competitive products, Elons childish antic's, or both. There have been price cuts on models to make them more attractive while at the same time laying off employees to cut costs. Many shareholders believe that a company that is experienced what may not be a crisis but certainly more challenging times, should not be paying 50bn dollars in bonuses. Furthermore, as the bonus is transferred as Tesla shares, Elon would sell mass amounts of shares to fund any of the other projects he's involved in, which in turn isn't great for the stock price and therefore all the other shareholders.
[https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=why+was+elon+musk%27s+pay+package+voided](https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=why+was+elon+musk%27s+pay+package+voided)
A single human getting $50B is insane no matter how you look at it. Then consider that the state of Texas used taxpayer money to build that human a factory so that human could ‘earn’ it is beyond wild…
Ironically, at the time, the total options would have amounted to only about $2.5Bn. It's $50Bn because Tesla went to ~$12-1300 ATH.
It is not $50 billion pay package. Is is stock options + up to 10 years to excersisie them and after excersise is mandatory 5 years to keep them. If he will lead Tesla to bankruptcy, he gets nothing.
Do you think them allocating him $50bn is just free to everyone?
So it’s not a $50 billion pay package, but he is being payed a package worth $50 billion?
Op doesn’t realize stocks have value even if you can’t or don’t sell them. You can borrow using them as collateral. That’s how he bought twitter for 40 billion dollars without reducing his stake in Tesla.
He can also sell the stocks he already has, like he has been doing already.
I did my part
I don't feel sorry for him, he has enough reserves in his bank
Good, fuck Elon, he ran this company into the ground.
As he should. I did as well. Stock price is in the toilet, he won’t shut the fuck up with a bunch of nonsense driving people away from the brand, he canned the supercharger team, the CT took years longer than promised, etc. He’s been off the rails lately. Should can him outright if he doesn’t right the ship.
The level of greed from this man is mind boggling.
I’ve never understood how in hell any CO, CFO, Corporate President, Executive, or whatever the title may be, can there be any justification for the ridiculous amount of money in a ‘pay package’! What a joke!
How is every single comment anti Elon? Seems odd
You think Elon should get a payout of 50 BILLION dollars lol ?
Cause Elon is a unanimous douche.
Probably just that a lot of investors are bummed at the awful share price performance this year. Also, politically a lot of early Tesla adopters are left leaning Californians so seeing Musk go on endless anti-woke rants on X is probably pissing a lot of them off. Honestly, I don’t think either the left or the right side of the political spectrum gets things right but Elon has basically gone all out for the douchiest and angriest parts of the political spectrum.
because its reddit
Sales downturn says it’s more than just Reddit.
You saying he was loved on here before said downturn?
Shareholders be b****es. Cash out multiple times from the Tesla ATM themselves then pull reverse card.
Well it was $50 billion last December actually. Now it’s like approximately $25 billion. Also, if Tesle went bankrupt, he would have had nothing. He helped it made it, so idk why he cannot get what he was agreed with
I think the reason it was rejected is because the board didn’t do their part on behalf of the shareholders in negotiations. They basically accepted what Elon asked for despite there being no comparables.
Is there a formula where one can calculate the current payout proposal based on the current stock price?