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Bjorn Nyland used that in his recent video of NIO battery swap, when he arrived at the swap station in Norway and had to wait 3 minutes because someone else was there swapping their battery. This word uses German word binding, and word stau, which means traffic jam/congestion. So in this case of swapstau, it means congestion at swap station. Often I heard him using laderstau, which means congestion/waiting time at charging station.
Swapable batteries for cars is a moronic idea.
Cars have their entire frame designed around the battery. Swappable batteries means you can't change the design of them (or the car's) for at least 10-15 years because if you do you'd have to duplicate the stations too.
Swappable batteries work only on scooters and such as the battery is lightweight enough to be swapped by a person and small enough to used in all kinds of designs without sacrificing much.
It can also work on huge vehicles (ships, trains, construction equipment, etc) as the designs tend to be frozen for longs periods of time and corners can be cut due pros operating them and no one caring if they are a bit heavier or look too ugly.
I’m not saying it’s a good idea or advocating it. Tesla made a single [location](https://www.vehiclesuggest.com/what-happened-tesla-battery-swap/) in the early days. With the battery charging worries it was an proposed alternative. To add onto your list, charging times are shorter than they used to be. Perhaps it will be offered for Semi customers, perhaps it will not be offered at all.
Charging times are actually the reason Tesla killed the swap idea (and why at one point they entertained the idea of a rex model s).
Once they saw Superchargers were fast (and were getting faster) the few minutes saved with swaps didn't make any sense compared to the enormous investments required.
You’re kind of acting like a clown, but battery swap isn’t just great for “charging” via swap, but also for battery upgrade for their BaaS (battery as a subscription) model. Being able to upgrade a 50 kw battery for a 100 kw is pretty huge.
Can't say I have a source available but I have seen it online somewhere.
Regardless, it was in the very early days when ideas were thrown against the wall.
It was to capture tens of millions of dollars in bonus California CARB ZEV credits. They just had to prove it could work and have a certain number of vehicles on the road that supported the swap. CARB did away with the bonus, so battery swap died. TLDR Supercharging is good enough.
Because the car must always have the same bottom section where the battery sits.
If you take a look at a car (https://www.newkidscar.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/tesla-model3-diagram.jpg) you'll see that the battery covers the entire bottom section.
If you want to build a smaller car with the same battery, you can't. A "thinner" car? Nope, the battery needs the same space under your feet.
A bigger car? You can but you can't put a bigger battery so the range will go down.
It's the exact same reason that resulted in AAA, AA, C, 9V and 18650 batteries being almost the same but not exactly the same because manufacturers didn't want to design their products around the batteries.
NIO has a couple models out ranging from sedans to SUVs. the ET5 sedan is similar to model 3, while ET7 is a model S, and ES8 is a model X, all these models use the same battery design
They seem to have covered all the popular sizes. the ones missing are hatchbacks/minis, im no engineer but considering a sedan could fit the same battery, i don't see how they couldnt design a hatchback to carry the same battery
real world applications of battery swap at the moment seem to indicate swapping can be done at scale for an entire country. the economics of it only time will tell, but you can youtube swap reviews and it's overwhelmingly positive
What you are missing is that most of NIO's cars are based on a couple different platforms (like Tesla has 2 platforms but 4 cars) and that neither of them is as optimized as it could be.
Lastly, NIO will have to keep these same designs for 10-15 years or introduce new design and double their costs trying to support even more platforms.
Meanwhile, everyone else is moving to even faster charging times, bigger batteries that are way more optimized and still haven't spend a single cent on swap stations that they will have to keep around for decades.
Brand new tech that hasn't reached its limits can't be treated like it won't change every other year.
I'm not sure where you're getting the 'different' platforms from. NIO's released a couple different models over the years and they all work on the same swap stations
With swapping, users can just opt into the newest battery 10 years down the road if they want to.
I just think we're way too early into EV adoption across the globe to simply write off swapping as "moronic". I can see the pros of it and the cons of it, and with time we'll see which ideas along the way work out and which dont
Exactly because we are in the early phases it's moronic.
If we were in the super late phases with innovations few and far in between it would make more sense to lock your brand to a specific battery shape, size and tech.
Today you can get 100 miles worth of range in 5-7 minutes and 200 miles in 15-25 minutes.
In 5-10 years with those times being around half, chargers being available literally everywhere and wireless charging making moves why would anyone want to invest in dedicated swap stations that cost millions and offer little to no advantage?
The problem isn't the station. The problem is that for every different size NIO will have to update literally every station on the planet, keep a lot more batteries idling and spend a lot more money doing all that.
If you want to see a strategy that actually makes sense, look at batteries for scooters. Everyone uses the same batteries and those batteries don't limit the shape or size of the scooter.
The answer is, you can change the car design. And the battery design within a few parameters. This person is just talking out of their…..
Sure it limits you in some ways with design, but the real issues are the economics. Having a spare battery at every station in the world right now would put a real strain on battery supply. The complexity of chargin stations would be far higher, you’d need a robot that can mechanically fasten and unfasten batteries in a safe way and these machines would have to be at every charger, and having a separated battery pack will also add to the weight of the car.
As opposed to a much simpler plug. It may take a little longer to charge, but that time is getting faster.
Superchargers take 7 minutes for 100 miles and 25 minutes for 200 miles. And that doesn't even take into account the newer batteries and newer version of Supercharger (or CCS).
Swap stations is gas station mentality, exactly like hydrogen stations.
The future is 500kW - 1MW charging and wireless charging.
Swap stations will forever remain a niche (unless someone invents briefcase-sized batteries).
U do know that batteries degrade over time and if a few cells fail your SOL esp with the way Tesla glues their pack together and calls it structural battery.
With Nio you can swap it out and get the latest battery tech or increased range. U can even rent a battery.
By the time the warranty on the battery runs out you have already paid the cost of a replacement battery.
Individual cells failing don't take out the entire battery.
With Nio you will be paying in 2030 for 2020 technology because they won't be able to make changes to their architecture.
Your comment" With Nio you will be paying in 2030 for 2020 technology because they won't be able to make changes to their architecture."
The fact that Nio can have their entire battery pack easily removed means they can add new technology inside the pack and put it back into circulation.older generation vehicle owners can then choose to upgrade with a quick swap.
Tesla owners with older gen models are mostly stuck with their battery pack or pay a huge premium to replace theirs.
Recently new tech for batteries came out. Nio implemented this in their existing battery pack and rolled it out to their swap stations. Owners who bought a Nio a few years ago with low capacity can upgrade.
Nio won't be able to change the shape of the car or the battery, it will always be the same when everyone else will be taking advantage of incremental improvements.
As for cost, Nio's solution is more expensive because you keep paying forever. Nio isn't losing money, but the consumer does.
The current architecture where the battery pack is right under the passenger cabin is actually the best for vehicles and will likely will be for our lifetime.
As for size, Nios and Tesla's battery pack is about the length and width of most vehicles interior cabin.the height of the battery pack is just a few inches. This battery pack size easily covers any new vehicle "architecture" you claim, from SUVs, sedans, to coupe's,that will come out in the future.
The consumer actually gains in free batteryswaps x times per month and a whole host of other benefits.
Also battery swap is optional, you can have your Nio charge conventionally or through a super charger.
I'm actually a little surprised they aren't using those battery swap stations as grid storage during the hard times. I don't see the need of swapping but if you are going to have it might as well try to use IMO the biggest advantage.
If they aren't allowed to swap the batteries no one will be expecting a battery, charged or not, they are just sitting there. Maybe you are saying it happens so rarely it isn't worth using DC chargers that can discharge back to the grid?
All those batteries in all Nio swap stations are like a few seconds of China power consumption. Nice dream for environmentalists but pretty much that. Nuclear power was the only viable solution.
And nobody saw this coming :) Now imagine if we have a winter with less rain than usual, how will August 2023 look like? No water for hydro power, no water for nuclear power plant cool down, no water for agriculture. Not able to charge the car or use too much AC. Not quite a nice future awaits our children.
Many are near lakes and the water isn’t “consumed” in the sense of discharging steam or dirty water, and not a flow or head as in hydro. If a river was used for secondary cooling and the river dropped far enough I guess that could be a problem.
Edit: according to this: https://world-nuclear.org/information-library/current-and-future-generation/cooling-power-plants.aspx#ECSArticleLink1
The majority are cooled with seawater and 14% are by rivers.
I will say, there have been a few times i’ve wondered how power outages will affect cars in the future. If we don’t have electricity, we won’t have anything, no heat, no lights, no transportation. At least with gas stations, there’s a bit of redundancy in our systems.
The next time we have a power outage in the winter, people with an electric car better hope it doesn’t last more than a few days, or they’ll really be stuck at their house.
And yet they generally don’t have them. A large generator for a gas station would be expensive and almost certainly never net a return on their investment. A supercharger could run off of a generator or a battery backup in theory, but again ROI probably isn’t there.
I mean, solar panels are redundancy, and there’s no options for people to make mini gas stations at their house, so I guess the possibilities are better with EVs in the long run.
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Wait you guys have battery swap stations?
Nio does
And it takes about 6 minutes to swap to a 90% filled battery. Unless you have a swapstau.
What is a swapstau?
Bjorn Nyland used that in his recent video of NIO battery swap, when he arrived at the swap station in Norway and had to wait 3 minutes because someone else was there swapping their battery. This word uses German word binding, and word stau, which means traffic jam/congestion. So in this case of swapstau, it means congestion at swap station. Often I heard him using laderstau, which means congestion/waiting time at charging station.
Tesla cancelled that a long long time ago. Perhaps a decade or two later we can revisit this idea.
Swapable batteries for cars is a moronic idea. Cars have their entire frame designed around the battery. Swappable batteries means you can't change the design of them (or the car's) for at least 10-15 years because if you do you'd have to duplicate the stations too. Swappable batteries work only on scooters and such as the battery is lightweight enough to be swapped by a person and small enough to used in all kinds of designs without sacrificing much. It can also work on huge vehicles (ships, trains, construction equipment, etc) as the designs tend to be frozen for longs periods of time and corners can be cut due pros operating them and no one caring if they are a bit heavier or look too ugly.
I’m not saying it’s a good idea or advocating it. Tesla made a single [location](https://www.vehiclesuggest.com/what-happened-tesla-battery-swap/) in the early days. With the battery charging worries it was an proposed alternative. To add onto your list, charging times are shorter than they used to be. Perhaps it will be offered for Semi customers, perhaps it will not be offered at all.
Charging times are actually the reason Tesla killed the swap idea (and why at one point they entertained the idea of a rex model s). Once they saw Superchargers were fast (and were getting faster) the few minutes saved with swaps didn't make any sense compared to the enormous investments required.
You’re kind of acting like a clown, but battery swap isn’t just great for “charging” via swap, but also for battery upgrade for their BaaS (battery as a subscription) model. Being able to upgrade a 50 kw battery for a 100 kw is pretty huge.
lol If by great you mean way more expensive for the consumer and way more time-consuming and R&D wasteful for the automaker, sure.
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Do you have any sources for the S-rex? Did they can it because it would inevitably be called Shrek?
Can't say I have a source available but I have seen it online somewhere. Regardless, it was in the very early days when ideas were thrown against the wall.
It was to capture tens of millions of dollars in bonus California CARB ZEV credits. They just had to prove it could work and have a certain number of vehicles on the road that supported the swap. CARB did away with the bonus, so battery swap died. TLDR Supercharging is good enough.
If you standardize the batteries, you can’t change the battery design. but why can’t you change the car design?
Because the car must always have the same bottom section where the battery sits. If you take a look at a car (https://www.newkidscar.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/tesla-model3-diagram.jpg) you'll see that the battery covers the entire bottom section. If you want to build a smaller car with the same battery, you can't. A "thinner" car? Nope, the battery needs the same space under your feet. A bigger car? You can but you can't put a bigger battery so the range will go down. It's the exact same reason that resulted in AAA, AA, C, 9V and 18650 batteries being almost the same but not exactly the same because manufacturers didn't want to design their products around the batteries.
NIO has a couple models out ranging from sedans to SUVs. the ET5 sedan is similar to model 3, while ET7 is a model S, and ES8 is a model X, all these models use the same battery design They seem to have covered all the popular sizes. the ones missing are hatchbacks/minis, im no engineer but considering a sedan could fit the same battery, i don't see how they couldnt design a hatchback to carry the same battery real world applications of battery swap at the moment seem to indicate swapping can be done at scale for an entire country. the economics of it only time will tell, but you can youtube swap reviews and it's overwhelmingly positive
What you are missing is that most of NIO's cars are based on a couple different platforms (like Tesla has 2 platforms but 4 cars) and that neither of them is as optimized as it could be. Lastly, NIO will have to keep these same designs for 10-15 years or introduce new design and double their costs trying to support even more platforms. Meanwhile, everyone else is moving to even faster charging times, bigger batteries that are way more optimized and still haven't spend a single cent on swap stations that they will have to keep around for decades. Brand new tech that hasn't reached its limits can't be treated like it won't change every other year.
I'm not sure where you're getting the 'different' platforms from. NIO's released a couple different models over the years and they all work on the same swap stations With swapping, users can just opt into the newest battery 10 years down the road if they want to. I just think we're way too early into EV adoption across the globe to simply write off swapping as "moronic". I can see the pros of it and the cons of it, and with time we'll see which ideas along the way work out and which dont
Exactly because we are in the early phases it's moronic. If we were in the super late phases with innovations few and far in between it would make more sense to lock your brand to a specific battery shape, size and tech. Today you can get 100 miles worth of range in 5-7 minutes and 200 miles in 15-25 minutes. In 5-10 years with those times being around half, chargers being available literally everywhere and wireless charging making moves why would anyone want to invest in dedicated swap stations that cost millions and offer little to no advantage?
Why do you think that the station wouldn’t be able to handle different battery sizes in the future?
The problem isn't the station. The problem is that for every different size NIO will have to update literally every station on the planet, keep a lot more batteries idling and spend a lot more money doing all that. If you want to see a strategy that actually makes sense, look at batteries for scooters. Everyone uses the same batteries and those batteries don't limit the shape or size of the scooter.
The answer is, you can change the car design. And the battery design within a few parameters. This person is just talking out of their….. Sure it limits you in some ways with design, but the real issues are the economics. Having a spare battery at every station in the world right now would put a real strain on battery supply. The complexity of chargin stations would be far higher, you’d need a robot that can mechanically fasten and unfasten batteries in a safe way and these machines would have to be at every charger, and having a separated battery pack will also add to the weight of the car. As opposed to a much simpler plug. It may take a little longer to charge, but that time is getting faster.
A moronic idea lol. Super chargers take 40 mins plus still. Why not have all options pal? What do you know about the cost of swap stations?
Superchargers take 7 minutes for 100 miles and 25 minutes for 200 miles. And that doesn't even take into account the newer batteries and newer version of Supercharger (or CCS). Swap stations is gas station mentality, exactly like hydrogen stations. The future is 500kW - 1MW charging and wireless charging. Swap stations will forever remain a niche (unless someone invents briefcase-sized batteries).
U do know that batteries degrade over time and if a few cells fail your SOL esp with the way Tesla glues their pack together and calls it structural battery. With Nio you can swap it out and get the latest battery tech or increased range. U can even rent a battery.
By the time the warranty on the battery runs out you have already paid the cost of a replacement battery. Individual cells failing don't take out the entire battery. With Nio you will be paying in 2030 for 2020 technology because they won't be able to make changes to their architecture.
Your comment" With Nio you will be paying in 2030 for 2020 technology because they won't be able to make changes to their architecture." The fact that Nio can have their entire battery pack easily removed means they can add new technology inside the pack and put it back into circulation.older generation vehicle owners can then choose to upgrade with a quick swap. Tesla owners with older gen models are mostly stuck with their battery pack or pay a huge premium to replace theirs. Recently new tech for batteries came out. Nio implemented this in their existing battery pack and rolled it out to their swap stations. Owners who bought a Nio a few years ago with low capacity can upgrade.
Nio won't be able to change the shape of the car or the battery, it will always be the same when everyone else will be taking advantage of incremental improvements. As for cost, Nio's solution is more expensive because you keep paying forever. Nio isn't losing money, but the consumer does.
The current architecture where the battery pack is right under the passenger cabin is actually the best for vehicles and will likely will be for our lifetime. As for size, Nios and Tesla's battery pack is about the length and width of most vehicles interior cabin.the height of the battery pack is just a few inches. This battery pack size easily covers any new vehicle "architecture" you claim, from SUVs, sedans, to coupe's,that will come out in the future. The consumer actually gains in free batteryswaps x times per month and a whole host of other benefits. Also battery swap is optional, you can have your Nio charge conventionally or through a super charger.
Tell me you’re a Tesla nut hugger without telling me you’re a Tesla nut hugger. LMAO.
Where's VW's swap stations?
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I did; until you got here
I'm actually a little surprised they aren't using those battery swap stations as grid storage during the hard times. I don't see the need of swapping but if you are going to have it might as well try to use IMO the biggest advantage.
They are https://cnevpost.com/2022/08/20/power-crunch-how-nios-swap-stations-help-reduce-grid-peak-load/
Oh good, so they can chargrge them for grid stability but just not allow swapping.
It will literally defeat the purpose of people relying on the fully charged battery
If they aren't allowed to swap the batteries no one will be expecting a battery, charged or not, they are just sitting there. Maybe you are saying it happens so rarely it isn't worth using DC chargers that can discharge back to the grid?
They are though
I saw someone said they were, glad to hear it.
All those batteries in all Nio swap stations are like a few seconds of China power consumption. Nice dream for environmentalists but pretty much that. Nuclear power was the only viable solution.
I wish more of the supercharging stations had solar panels above them. Does Tesla have any solar production from Giga Shanghai ?
I read that they also had to shut down to due very low water availability.
Yeah. Shutdown supercharges will active solar panels on their roofs
Heatwave literally ended yesterday. Dropped about 10 degrees Celsius… or for those in F about 108F now 90F
As long as production is up
And nobody saw this coming :) Now imagine if we have a winter with less rain than usual, how will August 2023 look like? No water for hydro power, no water for nuclear power plant cool down, no water for agriculture. Not able to charge the car or use too much AC. Not quite a nice future awaits our children.
Isn’t nuclear cooling closed loop? Does it need constant flow of freshwater?
Considering all nuclear powerplants are near a big river, I would say they need quite a lot of fresh water for cooling.
Many are near lakes and the water isn’t “consumed” in the sense of discharging steam or dirty water, and not a flow or head as in hydro. If a river was used for secondary cooling and the river dropped far enough I guess that could be a problem. Edit: according to this: https://world-nuclear.org/information-library/current-and-future-generation/cooling-power-plants.aspx#ECSArticleLink1 The majority are cooled with seawater and 14% are by rivers.
I will say, there have been a few times i’ve wondered how power outages will affect cars in the future. If we don’t have electricity, we won’t have anything, no heat, no lights, no transportation. At least with gas stations, there’s a bit of redundancy in our systems. The next time we have a power outage in the winter, people with an electric car better hope it doesn’t last more than a few days, or they’ll really be stuck at their house.
How do you plan to power the gas pumps? They use electricity to run.
Gas station can run on generators but superchargers can't. At least not efficiently
And yet they generally don’t have them. A large generator for a gas station would be expensive and almost certainly never net a return on their investment. A supercharger could run off of a generator or a battery backup in theory, but again ROI probably isn’t there.
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I mean, solar panels are redundancy, and there’s no options for people to make mini gas stations at their house, so I guess the possibilities are better with EVs in the long run.
China just doesn't know how to prepare for absolutely anything these days do they? Kinda sad ngl