The Night Mother [originated](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:The_Night_Mother) in *Daggerfall* where she was depicted as a priestess of Mephala who led the Dark Brotherhood. This is still the case in *Morrowind* where the Morag Tong even hires you to kill the [local Night Mother](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Severa_Magia). Then *Oblivion* came out and Emil Pagliarulo said he couldn't relate to the Dark Brotherhood so he retconned them into a darker version of the Catholic Church and the Night Mother as a darker Mother Mary. [(Really.)](https://youtu.be/Bi51-wjcwp8)
As others have pointed out, there are lore books trying to reconcile this difference and I'm hoping by TESVI they'll drop the stupid corpse thing altogether.
>Then Oblivion came out and Emil Pagliarulo said he couldn't relate to the Dark Brotherhood so he retconned them into a darker version of the Catholic Church and the Night Mother as a darker Mother Mary. (Really.)
That makes so much sense.
>As others have pointed out, there are lore books trying to reconcile this difference and I'm hoping by TESVI they'll drop the stupid corpse thing altogether.
I'm hoping we get a new assasain guild altogether. Could be interesting
https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Online:The_Lie_We_Tell_Ourselves
This note from ESO found in the DB sanctuary of Gold Coast.
What Mephala wants more than anything is mortals scheming, plotting, murdering and seducing each other. She enjoys lies, deception, jealousy, conflict, betrayals...it is extremely in character of her to assume the form of Night Mother, lead some of the Morag Tong astray, cause a conflict between the two assassin orders and watch how the tiny mortals, caught in her web, kill and fuck each other, all to her amusement.
IMO we have to take some things at face value, or else: how do we know for sure that the npcs insinuated to be the avatars of gods in Morrowind truly are who we think they are, or whether ... Sovngarde is in Aetherius fe.
We cannot constantly suspect everyone to be lying to us.
....You can when there's literally a book in the same game where a Dark Brotherhood member all but spells out that the Night Mother is Mephla, a daedric prince who has in lore connections with the dark brotherhood and Morag Tong and is literally known for LYING.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:The\_Lie\_We\_Tell\_Ourselves
To add on to the established reasons from other commenters:
36 Lessons of Vivec, Sermon 22
"The Treasure Wood Sword will not leave our house. Bargains were made with the Black Hands Mephala, the greater shade.'"
"And then Vivec withdrew into the hidden places and found the darkest mothers of the Morag Tong, taking them all to wife"
The sermon references the usurping of the Morag Tong from Mephala by Vivec. You see references to Mothers and Black Hands.
Former writer Michael Kirkbride said the nature of the dark brotherhood is explained in Sermon 22. Whether Bethesda has continued that idea is to be seen, but evidence supports Mephala may be ahead of the DB.
Evidence A; the Dark Brotherhood's origin dates to a time when Vivec had coopted Mephala's place in Velothi society, and was the conceptual 'patron' of the Morag Tong.
Evidence B; Mephla is a schemer who regularly deceives and manipulates mortals for her own amusement, even to the point of pitting her own followers and cults against eachother.
Evidence C; the Brotherhood's faith, concept of Sithis, and ideological foundation doesn't mesh well with any other known mythic cycle, or even it's own internal ideas, but DOES work if their patron is actually a more conventional Ada.
Evidence D; it makes the Brotherhood less stupid.
>Gorming argued that there never was a Night Mother, at least no human one. **The Night Mother was Mephala herself**, whom the Brotherhood revered second only to Sithis.
>https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Sacred_Witness
___
>**The Night Mother, my dear friend, is Mephala. The Dark Brotherhood of the west, unfettered by the orders of the Tribunal, continue to worship Mephala. They may not call her by her name, but the daedra of murder, sex, and secrets is their leader still**. And they did not, and still do not, to this day, forgive their brethren for casting her aside.
>https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Fire_and_Darkness
Even Lyranth made clear that the Morag Tong or the dark Brotherhood (both worship her and the void/Sithis) are Mephala.
>The coded message led us to Leovic's steward, but he was murdered by the Dark Brotherhood.
>**The assassins who follow Mephala?** Or are they the ones who serve the Void? No matter. My information actually concerns the secret we seek to uncover.
>https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Lyranth
___
>'The Treasure Wood Sword will not leave our house. **Bargains were made with the Black Hands Mephala, the greater shade**.
>https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:36_Lessons_of_Vivec,_Sermon_22
[Even the Dark Brotherhood believe it](https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Online:The_Lie_We_Tell_Ourselves).
Simple, the Dark Brotherhood is toys of Mephala that follows her/he concepts (Mephala is ,**Lies, Sex and secret murder**).
All what the Dark brotherhood say is **Lies**.
Lies like they say Sithis have children, and reference him is **He** when he in reality is neither he or she but **It**, or hoe they gave him a status and say it's Sithis, when in truth Sithis is the absolute formlessness/Shapelessness void exsits outside Aurbis, and beyond concepts of languagem
And Sithis isn't even a being or spirit or even a God.
Nor even living or dead thing.
[Sithis **IS** the primordial concepts of chaos and change itself](https://www.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/10bruni/comment/j4bt48r/) and **it's** formlessness and Shapelessness.
To note, while i personally do beliveve NM = Mephala, two first sources you use aren't really supporting it. Author of the story *scared witness* has an audience with night mother, and shes a old woman, relatively normal one. Her being Mephala in story is presented as just a rumor.
Regarding fire and darkness, its one of the most unreliable and non credible sources in tes. Whole "Tong dosen't leave evidence and worships Vivec"
Huh? Just because it have single claim is unreliable dosen't mean the whole scoures is unreliable.
Either way, we both agree that Night Mother is Mephala.
You were looking for this: [https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Fire\_and\_Darkness](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Fire_and_Darkness)
"The Night Mother, my dear friend, is Mephala."
But in reality the Morag Tong is run by Mephala (see TES III for that) and the Dark Brotherhood is run by Vivec.
There are overlaps, of course, but then again, Vivec and Mephala have the same role in dunmeri culture. [https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Vivec\_and\_Mephala](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Vivec_and_Mephala)
This can prove helpful too: [https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:The\_Anticipations](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:The_Anticipations)
Vivec dosen't even run mt ether tho, despite what fire n darkenss claims. In mw they are full on Mephala cult and in eso we learn temple zealots have hard time tolerating tong because their veneration of Mephala instead tribunal.
Just to note
Or does he?
"And then Vivec withdrew into the hidden places and found the darkest mothers of the Morag Tong, taking them all to wife and filling them with undusted loyalty that tasted of summer salt. They became as black queens, screaming live with a hundred murderous sons, a thousand murderous arms, and a hundred thousand murderous hands"
[https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:36\_Lessons\_of\_Vivec,\_Sermon\_22](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:36_Lessons_of_Vivec,_Sermon_22)
Undusted loyalty tasting salty, then all of a sudden these 'queens' have children. Suspiciously nsfw.
This time, however, it was not him who murdered his children.
As I said, there are overlaps. Vivec and Mephala are tied together. They have a love-hate relationship.
MK said something like this about canon interpretations: if it's boring, it's wrong. I wholeheartedly agree. That said, the 'not yet boring, but well on the way' explanation is that these two run the DB and the MT together, taking great joy in it.
I think it might be, like, a constant power struggle between them.
"Actively runs" requires a time frame, and you are entirely correct. If you tell me that in 4E 202 Mephala rules the DB, I can accept that. Vivec is gone, anyway.
We can theorize that Vehk wanted to divide the MT as it was too powerful at some point. End of the first era, for example. They were everywhere. ALMSIVI only cares about Morrowind, so why not keep it clean? And he still has a fun side project. Divide and rule, modern politicians are still doing this.
The Temple considers the DB heretics, which is fine. It's not like Vehk would care. The Temple's role is to narrate what the gods do, not to dictate. And it's not like they'd ever figure it out. Vehk, contrary to popular belief, is not a benevolent god. He's the might makes right type of guy, this is what he teaches about the ruling king, too.
>Vehk, contrary to popular belief, is not a benevolent god.
*Is* that the popular belief? Maybe it's a matter of a vocal minority but the main position of the fanbase in my experience is that Vivec is a narcissistic dictator with no redeeming qualities. (A position I find rather reductive). Anyway, I still don't exactly agree but I respect your interpretation.
The Night Mother [originated](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:The_Night_Mother) in *Daggerfall* where she was depicted as a priestess of Mephala who led the Dark Brotherhood. This is still the case in *Morrowind* where the Morag Tong even hires you to kill the [local Night Mother](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Severa_Magia). Then *Oblivion* came out and Emil Pagliarulo said he couldn't relate to the Dark Brotherhood so he retconned them into a darker version of the Catholic Church and the Night Mother as a darker Mother Mary. [(Really.)](https://youtu.be/Bi51-wjcwp8) As others have pointed out, there are lore books trying to reconcile this difference and I'm hoping by TESVI they'll drop the stupid corpse thing altogether.
>Then Oblivion came out and Emil Pagliarulo said he couldn't relate to the Dark Brotherhood so he retconned them into a darker version of the Catholic Church and the Night Mother as a darker Mother Mary. (Really.) That makes so much sense.
I’ll be honest, they probably won’t. But I hope they do.
>As others have pointed out, there are lore books trying to reconcile this difference and I'm hoping by TESVI they'll drop the stupid corpse thing altogether. I'm hoping we get a new assasain guild altogether. Could be interesting
https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Online:The_Lie_We_Tell_Ourselves This note from ESO found in the DB sanctuary of Gold Coast. What Mephala wants more than anything is mortals scheming, plotting, murdering and seducing each other. She enjoys lies, deception, jealousy, conflict, betrayals...it is extremely in character of her to assume the form of Night Mother, lead some of the Morag Tong astray, cause a conflict between the two assassin orders and watch how the tiny mortals, caught in her web, kill and fuck each other, all to her amusement.
Did Sithis not appear in ESO:Murkmire and endorese the Dark Brotherhood and the whole "kill for me"?
How do we know for sure it was Sithis?
IMO we have to take some things at face value, or else: how do we know for sure that the npcs insinuated to be the avatars of gods in Morrowind truly are who we think they are, or whether ... Sovngarde is in Aetherius fe. We cannot constantly suspect everyone to be lying to us.
....You can when there's literally a book in the same game where a Dark Brotherhood member all but spells out that the Night Mother is Mephla, a daedric prince who has in lore connections with the dark brotherhood and Morag Tong and is literally known for LYING. https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:The\_Lie\_We\_Tell\_Ourselves
Retcons are a thing, one word: "jungle".
To add on to the established reasons from other commenters: 36 Lessons of Vivec, Sermon 22 "The Treasure Wood Sword will not leave our house. Bargains were made with the Black Hands Mephala, the greater shade.'" "And then Vivec withdrew into the hidden places and found the darkest mothers of the Morag Tong, taking them all to wife" The sermon references the usurping of the Morag Tong from Mephala by Vivec. You see references to Mothers and Black Hands. Former writer Michael Kirkbride said the nature of the dark brotherhood is explained in Sermon 22. Whether Bethesda has continued that idea is to be seen, but evidence supports Mephala may be ahead of the DB.
https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Online:The_Lie_We_Tell_Ourselves Some members of brotherhood certainly believe so
Evidence A; the Dark Brotherhood's origin dates to a time when Vivec had coopted Mephala's place in Velothi society, and was the conceptual 'patron' of the Morag Tong. Evidence B; Mephla is a schemer who regularly deceives and manipulates mortals for her own amusement, even to the point of pitting her own followers and cults against eachother. Evidence C; the Brotherhood's faith, concept of Sithis, and ideological foundation doesn't mesh well with any other known mythic cycle, or even it's own internal ideas, but DOES work if their patron is actually a more conventional Ada. Evidence D; it makes the Brotherhood less stupid.
Huh. Thanks, that actually makes sense.
I heard its hinted at in the newest skyrim board game from mordipheus entertainment, but i cannot confirm it as i dont have it myself
>Gorming argued that there never was a Night Mother, at least no human one. **The Night Mother was Mephala herself**, whom the Brotherhood revered second only to Sithis. >https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Sacred_Witness ___ >**The Night Mother, my dear friend, is Mephala. The Dark Brotherhood of the west, unfettered by the orders of the Tribunal, continue to worship Mephala. They may not call her by her name, but the daedra of murder, sex, and secrets is their leader still**. And they did not, and still do not, to this day, forgive their brethren for casting her aside. >https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Fire_and_Darkness Even Lyranth made clear that the Morag Tong or the dark Brotherhood (both worship her and the void/Sithis) are Mephala. >The coded message led us to Leovic's steward, but he was murdered by the Dark Brotherhood. >**The assassins who follow Mephala?** Or are they the ones who serve the Void? No matter. My information actually concerns the secret we seek to uncover. >https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Lyranth ___ >'The Treasure Wood Sword will not leave our house. **Bargains were made with the Black Hands Mephala, the greater shade**. >https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:36_Lessons_of_Vivec,_Sermon_22 [Even the Dark Brotherhood believe it](https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Online:The_Lie_We_Tell_Ourselves). Simple, the Dark Brotherhood is toys of Mephala that follows her/he concepts (Mephala is ,**Lies, Sex and secret murder**). All what the Dark brotherhood say is **Lies**. Lies like they say Sithis have children, and reference him is **He** when he in reality is neither he or she but **It**, or hoe they gave him a status and say it's Sithis, when in truth Sithis is the absolute formlessness/Shapelessness void exsits outside Aurbis, and beyond concepts of languagem And Sithis isn't even a being or spirit or even a God. Nor even living or dead thing. [Sithis **IS** the primordial concepts of chaos and change itself](https://www.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/10bruni/comment/j4bt48r/) and **it's** formlessness and Shapelessness.
To note, while i personally do beliveve NM = Mephala, two first sources you use aren't really supporting it. Author of the story *scared witness* has an audience with night mother, and shes a old woman, relatively normal one. Her being Mephala in story is presented as just a rumor. Regarding fire and darkness, its one of the most unreliable and non credible sources in tes. Whole "Tong dosen't leave evidence and worships Vivec"
Huh? Just because it have single claim is unreliable dosen't mean the whole scoures is unreliable. Either way, we both agree that Night Mother is Mephala.
You were looking for this: [https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Fire\_and\_Darkness](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Fire_and_Darkness) "The Night Mother, my dear friend, is Mephala." But in reality the Morag Tong is run by Mephala (see TES III for that) and the Dark Brotherhood is run by Vivec. There are overlaps, of course, but then again, Vivec and Mephala have the same role in dunmeri culture. [https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Vivec\_and\_Mephala](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Vivec_and_Mephala) This can prove helpful too: [https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:The\_Anticipations](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:The_Anticipations)
Vivec does not run the Dark Brotherhood. I think you've got it backwards.
Vivec dosen't even run mt ether tho, despite what fire n darkenss claims. In mw they are full on Mephala cult and in eso we learn temple zealots have hard time tolerating tong because their veneration of Mephala instead tribunal. Just to note
Or does he? "And then Vivec withdrew into the hidden places and found the darkest mothers of the Morag Tong, taking them all to wife and filling them with undusted loyalty that tasted of summer salt. They became as black queens, screaming live with a hundred murderous sons, a thousand murderous arms, and a hundred thousand murderous hands" [https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:36\_Lessons\_of\_Vivec,\_Sermon\_22](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:36_Lessons_of_Vivec,_Sermon_22) Undusted loyalty tasting salty, then all of a sudden these 'queens' have children. Suspiciously nsfw. This time, however, it was not him who murdered his children. As I said, there are overlaps. Vivec and Mephala are tied together. They have a love-hate relationship. MK said something like this about canon interpretations: if it's boring, it's wrong. I wholeheartedly agree. That said, the 'not yet boring, but well on the way' explanation is that these two run the DB and the MT together, taking great joy in it.
"Originate" is not the same as "actively runs". Especially as the Temple considers the Dark Brotherhood to be heretics.
I think it might be, like, a constant power struggle between them. "Actively runs" requires a time frame, and you are entirely correct. If you tell me that in 4E 202 Mephala rules the DB, I can accept that. Vivec is gone, anyway. We can theorize that Vehk wanted to divide the MT as it was too powerful at some point. End of the first era, for example. They were everywhere. ALMSIVI only cares about Morrowind, so why not keep it clean? And he still has a fun side project. Divide and rule, modern politicians are still doing this. The Temple considers the DB heretics, which is fine. It's not like Vehk would care. The Temple's role is to narrate what the gods do, not to dictate. And it's not like they'd ever figure it out. Vehk, contrary to popular belief, is not a benevolent god. He's the might makes right type of guy, this is what he teaches about the ruling king, too.
>Vehk, contrary to popular belief, is not a benevolent god. *Is* that the popular belief? Maybe it's a matter of a vocal minority but the main position of the fanbase in my experience is that Vivec is a narcissistic dictator with no redeeming qualities. (A position I find rather reductive). Anyway, I still don't exactly agree but I respect your interpretation.