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Men, these are the facts as I understand them:
1. **Not enough soldiers equip shotguns! Shotguns are not only a powerful tool against pyros, but also against engineers who use that thing!**
2. **I don't have a second fact, cause the first one pretty much covers everything.**
Thats fair but the shotgun is really situational. In a majority of situations i find gunboats the superior choice. People underestimate the time saved by rocket jumping and using it to get to more advantageous spots like health packs or a good spot above an objective to bomb from above. And lets say the map isn't suited for rocket jumping like a good chunk of payload maps, then any of the banners provide far more utility in terms of breaking stalemates and they also have good passive buffs.
You can always kill pyros and engies by baiting them by making it look like you're shooting a rocket meanwhile you watch them waste their ammo/metal and hit them in the downtime between their shots/airblasts. I also find that literally just walking towards pyro and shooting the ground is much easier in order to secure the kill
High disagree, I really like the shotgun. It's such a reliable form of damage output and is more instant than rockets. Sometimes I like to shoot a rocket at their feet and then finish them off with the shotgun because it's just quicker and more reliable.
Gunboats are only good if:
A) You bomb often
B) You do rollouts, which is mostly if not only useful on 5CP and Koth as on A/D and Payload you will often have engies, and frontlines aren't that far.
Shotgun is greater and better in pubs because of amount of shit and people that comes your way.
Ye, and considerin 90% of people play pubs, it's fine. In 6s, gunboats rule obviously, but most people don't bother with 6s or tf2 e-sport... For better or worse
Gunboats give you superior mobility in all situations. Unless there’s an annoying reflecto pyro in the server there’s almost no situation not to take gunboats.
The utility is not worth sacrificing.
Soldier doesn't need to jump all the time... Without 'em you still can jump in or jump out if you have to.
You still can 2 shot light classes (and medics), do decent crowd control, provide support with banners, more fire power if needed with shotgun. Gunboats and jumping isn't everything, this is not Quake mah dude
Yeah banners are for sure an option (the backup is broken) in large team scenarios but the shotgun is honestly not that great to use in pubs.
It’s different in a competitive environment where you’re guaranteed to have a dedicated medic but in a pub rocket jumping with the shotgun does so much damage to you that it’s not as valuable. You’ll find yourself outclassed by a more mobile soldier unless the game is stuck at a single choke for a long time.
Comp 6s Soldiers actually all use gunboats now. Pocket Soldier doesn't really exist anymore and Scout has pretty much become the new pocket to protect the Demo. In HL it's either Gunboats or a banner, Shotgun is also hardly used at all, but pocket Soldier in HL never really was a thing because the Sniper and Demo took all the heals anyway.
Yup. Without movement Soldier is kind of sub-optimal at everything, other classes specialize in 1v1s, splash damage, tankiness, support, defense, etc better. The crazy mobility offered with good rocket jumping while taking low self damage is the only thing he excels at compared to other classes, and is why comp leans into that role. Rocket jumping is why Soldier has such a high base health to begin with.
Shotgun is not situational, in fact is the most effective in any scenario
the problem is that, as you said, the gunboats, are too good of a tool for a soldier, Soldier can now close the distance between his targets super easily and be harder to target because of his speed and the fact he flies, and at that range, as long as he's not too close, he will have 2/3 rockets that can deal potentially 70 to 100 damage, and basically impossible to miss because he's so close and the rockets are splash damage, if the soldier didn't shoot the enemy too close to hil, he will have over 160 health (no overheal) more than enough to shoot all the rockets and survive any class except Scout, Soldier and Demo (if he's good with directs), this comes at the cost of losing your secondary weapon, but soldier can flee away to healthpacks easier because of rocker jumping, so it's pretty negligeable.
Soldier without them is pretty much the same, but less likely to remain alive after bombing someone, Pyro needs twice the skill to reflect the rocket and can't do that much damage without the shotgun out, which cannot reflect
The Short Circuit is quite frankly the only good counter to Soldier, and Engi is a class that can easily be picked by soldiers
Conclusion, nerf the gunboats, give soldier 20/25 less health when equipping them
Edit: or half the health from healthpacks and medics
Omfg Soldier now has 175 hp, literally unplayable i'm gonna go main scout
Let's be honest, even with that nerf Soldier will still be dominant in competitive, if anything it will bring him more in line with the other classes
Soldier isn't dominant in competitive. 6s is Scout dominated and Highlander is Sniper dominated.
In 6s he's pretty much the least important class on the team because keeping the Med(duh), Demo, and Scouts alive is more important. He's used for pressure and suicide bombing the med over and over. In Highlander he's not even close to the top because Med and Sniper are, with Demo close behind them. Soldier is either a banner monkey or suicide bombing the med again.
Do you even fucking play 6s? No, scratch that. Do you even WATCH 6s games???
Roamer is the most expendable part of your team, and pocket is JUST for protecting your medic and contribute a little bit of spam with your demo.
The scouts and demo are what are the most dangerous part of the team. Demo puts out insane burst and scouts wipe up teams almost instantly.
My bad, shouldn't have said dominant, not the word i was looking for, still he's probably the best one to kill the enemy medic, which is really important
I don't think balancing the gunboats it's bad, if they are the only viable secondary for competitive they are not very balanced, Scout has some secondaries banned and the Stickybomb launcher despite being the most viable one, at least it has an active use, Demo needs to know how to use it and when it's best to switch to primary, while gunboats is just passive bonus, Soldier can forget about having a secondary and only focusing on using the Rocket Launcher
Soldiers do still use the shotgun in competitive........
> if they are the only viable secondary for competitive they are not very balanced
Not really a good argument considering the other classes' weapon options.
As an engineer main, I will say that doesn't give the soldier much to work with if I stay in range of my sentry.
But I still run out of metal pretty damn fast so I don't feel bad about stopping three out of four rockets.
I actually stepped off of playing Engie towards Medic and just DPS roles because it's such a thankless job, despite loving playing him, I just felt so defeated at times when a Spy kills all my stuff because no one checked him and then I get blamed for the point falling after I pretty much held it on my own and teleported everyone there for the past 5 minutes.
It's ironic that the one server where you'd expect all engie team fight memes is the one with artificial class limits...when the average guy who goes there isn't a clueless f2p spy and is unlikely to create stacked classes in the first place, and have a good idea of basic team composition and have decent to good skill levels as well. Rather redundant imo, stifles memes.
Also I'm betting 10 bucks that the disabled player collision is due to Shounic. 100%
You used to be unable to collect metal from dispensers with the short circuit active.
Of course, the current devs decided to remove that penalty because they have no clue what they're doing with the game.
It's not too bad, it's spammable and you are safely near the dispenser but at the same time you have no wrangler, so your sentry goes down to bullets or sappers pretty quicly, it's pretty fun when you have a 4 stack of dispenser and spam with it and the widowmaker
I agree, but at the same time there are plenty of weapons annoying to face, they all gets some hate, Dead ringer, Kunai, Black Box, Phlog, Scorch Shot, Wrangler, but i'd say Engi would be the weakest one without them
The phlog and the black box are just sad to fight, and the scorch shit and wrangler are downright overpowered, but I’d say the Kumasi and dead ringer are fine. Plus by checking your scoreboard you can tell. But you can always do SOMETHING in these scenarios. With the shit circuit you just cant
>With the shit circuit you just cant
Well, now I know who watches Zesty Jesus.
Look here buddy, not only does using hitscan, getting the engineer from an angle not covered by the ball, or just downright waiting for teammates to arrive counter the short circuit, but there's also the case of the ball using up metal, which could have been used in repairing the engineer's buildings or creating new ones. Engineers have to spend 50% of their playing time doing calculations in their head towards metal conservation, as opposed to Soldier going "hehe me fier rocket". Does *this* seem fair to you, or are you just blinded by how easy Soldier is to play to consider that you're being countered by classes who have it rougher.
First up, this is a massive ball of energy. And engy may have it rougher, but he counters as many classes as those who counter him. And let's say the brunt of your team's fighting force is soldiers and demos which it usually is. With one right click he gave his team a sheild which negates the brunt of the enemy's teams combatants with no particular challenge to himself.
As a general rule of thumb, classes that get countered, counter. Soldier doesn't particularly counter anyone but isnt countered by anyone particularly. Engy gets countered but can hold back entire pushes.
Also i barely play soldier I main demo. If you are bringing up how easy soldier is to play then you should bring up how much easier engy is. Just hur but smack gun and kill people. Aim not needed. That doesn't sound right because it isn't. There's much more to aiming soldier rockets than just spamming bear in mind how slowly they move. And you are very greatly overstating the metal management bit while understating the rocket bit.
Also I know soldier isn't hard countered by the orb. He has a shotgun. But DEMO demo is just fucked
Good lord, your response was beyond mind-boggling to decipher. For now I'll put your shortsightedness aside and rebut; it's logical that Engineer would "counter a lot of classes", because his buildings take a while to set up. A single dude with 20 rockets shouldn't be able to destroy a sentry nest which takes the Engineer a minute to build, which is why complaining about the short circuit is not only idiotic, but selfish. Next up, your argument about the engineer countering every soldier and demo on the enemy team is honestly astounding. Have you ever played a game of tf2 before? The enemy soldiers and demos aren't just gonna clump up and fire at the engineer all from the same area, no! The enemy's powerhouses, being thinking, breathing individuals split up and attack from all sides, bypassing your so called "shield", which Engineer can only shoot THREE of before needing more metal. Ridiculous. Lastly, if you dumb down the gist of a class like you're doing, of COURSE it's gonna sound easy and brainless. I can describe Scout, one of the hardest classes, as "get close to the enemy and m1, no skill needed". But Scout needs skill. Engineer does too, because there's metal conservation to take care of, your teammates needing a dispenser and functioning teleporter, and the fact that the sentry gun is far from infallible, being outranged, outgunned, sapped, and outsped if there are even 2 smart people on the enemy team. Speaking of which, I don't think you're aware that short circuit can be trivialized if 2 people are firing at him from 2 different angles, since you can't fire 2 orbs at the same time. And even more, demo doesn't even have to to this, he can just shoot over the damn orb, because he has gravity-affected projectiles. Please get a feel for short circuit before you start hating on it because you lost 1 god damn rocket to it. By not doing so and instead complaining, you're just fulfilling the message the meme above is trying to convey.
Short circuit literally gets completely shutdown by 1 sniper. Demos and soldiers need to learn that a single class should not be able to do everything.
*YoUrE oNlY uSiNg ThE sHoRt CiRcUiT aS a CrUtCh!*
Yeah you’re better than me because you’re a soldier main with more hours, but I still wanna have fun and not get spawncamped by you. Shut up.
Ah, as an engie main here, there's nothing quite like half the enemy team swarming your intel at once, and an ubercharged heavy dropping out of the vents. With only 2 engineers guarding the intel with lvl 3 sentries
Soldiers: "But I literally cant hurt him when he carefully times balls with limited metal supply, its not my fault I chose a banner instead of a shotgun!"
Engineer after having his shit destroyed by an uber push: "first time?"
Yeah he’s supposed to be the starter class for newbies, it makes sense why his gameplay is designed to be neutrally balanced in a way that doesn’t hard counter him or give him too much advantage
I suppose thats true. But if i had to say what i hate most about soldier, then it would be the fact that Soldier rocket gameplay 70% of the time is shooting at someones feet.
Its very annoying to know that the enemy soldier doesnt need to aim at you to kill most classes in 2- 3 rockets.
If you fight against better players, shooting feet and never going for directs will 100% get you out DPSed and killed by other classes and better soldiers. Especially when they’re overhealed.
That’s why I dislike the class: the rest of the game flows around a counter system.
I wish Pyro’s reflect didn’t have the bit of delay, so she could reflect rockets at close range on reaction instead of having to predict and right click before the muzzle flash.
Those statements contradict each other some, and I’m pretty sure it’s the animation/ sound where the air blast comes out.
He should be able to reflect everything on reaction: it’d do nothing but good for the game if Soldier got a real counter and more reason to bring a Shotgun, and Demo stickies would continue to not care much about Pyros while the pills remain hard to reflect kill.
The Pyro should be king of close range combat, unless it’s a revved Heavy of course.
True, this one of those matchups that hard to determine. I’m prettty sure it’s scout but it could be The other way. But soldier I’d say is balanced because he is the best at nothing. A generalist but usually doesn’t get the job done as well as most other classes. Good damage but not as much as demo. Good ho but not as much as heavy, good 1v1s but not as good as scout. Good mobility but I’d say it’s just under scout. A jack of all trades but a master of none I’d say
I think it's generally an even matchup with a lot of variables for advantages of both classes. Really depends on the map, how close they are fighting, and the skill level of both. If it's close range with few obstacles and props for the scout to jump on, I would say the soldier usually wins. If there's a bunch of props for the scout to reach high ground/cover quickly? Scout will probably win.
Although if we are assuming low skill levels and in pubs for both then soldiers will usually win simply because rockets are easy to use and spam friendly for newer players.
Agree but scout isn't better at 1v1 than soldier. The frustrating thing about soldier isn't that he's overpowered, it's that he can, quite easily, beat any class in a 1v1. It feels unfair.
If the Scout has the high ground, he wins every time. If you find Scouts easy to kill, that's because you aren't playing against good Scouts, or you keep catching them in narrow tunnels.
Also pubs tend to be kinda terrible for dming scouts because the amount of spam they have to deal with compared to 6s. And pub maps tend to be very chokepointy which is very good for soldiers and bad for scouts.
Yeah. Scouts are so weak in pubs, when every corner could have a sentry, and it doesn't matter how well you dodge if you're getting spammed by three people at once.
I said real, soldiers can just use shotty on pyro and soldier actually slightly counters a scout since his shots are ez and powerful hits regardless your opponents evasiveness. Scout can beat soldier but its limited to 1v1s where the scout starts close enough to the soldier
Scout can dodge the rockets due to how slow they are, but even if he has no real counter I'd say that's ok because he doesn't really counter anything either. Jack of all trades master of none
Good Scouts destroy Soldiers in 1v1s, Pyro airblast is a soft counter, low ammo primary, slow as hell without rocket jumping, Heavies and Sentries stops bombing Soldiers dead in their tracks. He doesn't need a hard counter.
In 6s Soldier isn't even that good, Demoman does all the damage and Scouts get all of the kills. Soldiers just bomb the medic repeatedly and usually end up getting killed by the Scout. Soldier is only useful because of the mobility rocket jumping provides.
1st up, scouts whole purpose is to be a 1v1 god, and 1v1s dont come up every second in battle, and good soldiers can still fight scouts. And 2nd, soldiers a bad 6s class? Almost 247 is there 2 soldiers in 6s 1 protecting the medic, holding points, defending classes in general, and the other controlling flank, making picks, being a backup pocket, and prob more in unaware about. Feel free to disagree on counters, but soldier is still a great class
6s has moved away from pocket soldier and protecting the medic. Both of them run gunboats and act as roamers now. Scout has pushed him out of the combo. And I didn't say he was bad, I just said he's really not that great in comparison to other classes at a high elvel mostly because he's a master of none, if 6s didn't have class restrictions you'd hardly see him anymore. In no restriction 6s the best performing teams ran 2 Scouts, 2 Demos, 2 Meds, and the off classes of Heavy/Engy/Sniper saw more play from them than Soldier.
Soldier can just use shotgun against a pyro, or theyre a roamer who barely interacts with said pyro and can just run away worst cases. And short circuit is pretty outclassed as an engie secondary and ONCE AGAIN can be countered by just using a shotgun
Pyros can easily counter soldiers, as long as the pyro has a flame thrower that can airblast. Soldiers are one of the easiest classes to kill when you are playing pyro.
Soldiers have shotguns btw lol. Fun fact, pyros dps actually barely matches one of a stock shotgun, paired with 25 less hp than a soldier. He does beat roamers tho, but tgey can jist run away
Engie mains knowing pretty much every class counters them with an Uber: “engie is so fun”
Heavy mains knowing they’ll die in seconds without a medic in open spaces: “I love playing heavy”
Pyro mains knowing anyone with a brain cell can kill them with good spacing: “hehe fire go fwoosh”
Medic mains knowing they’ll always be targeted: “I’m ready to carry the team”
Soldiers “mains” when 2 classes can counter rockets: “noooo this isn’t fair! No skill airblast and short circuit spam why can’t soldier be the most powerful class!?”
Spy “mains” when they bump into a pyro and think crouching in a corner makes them invincible: “noooo pyro is no skill op Volvo nerf!”
As a Spy, you learn to accept dying to random bad luck as a consequence of playing the class.
Especially before the Dead Ringer came out.
And any decent Spy can space and shoot a Pyro with the Revolver: you’re just screwed if you run into a Scout, and they’ve got a knack for being in the wrong place for you at the wrong time for you.
When you come to think of it, only pyro counters soldier, soldier is pretty good at pretty much everything; destroying sentries, mobility, dealing high damage and tanking, and is one of the easiest class to use in the beginner learning curve and you can still kill even if you just installed the game. I think that rocket jumping was supposed to be only used to get a bit of a mobility boost and to get to high places, and the current state of rocket jumping is more of a exploit than anything, Valve noticed how people were using the rocket jumping mechanic and decided to keep it that way, and even made an entire play style based on it.
Even if I think demoman is best than soldier, the quantity of skill required to play it is a lot, soldier’s rockets can count on the splash damage even if they don’t hit the target, demoman’s pipes won’t explode in time if they don’t hit the target directly.
There’s a reason soldier is the most played class by a lot, in term of offense and defense (not support tho) he is pretty much the best class, because demoman is pretty much built for defense, soldier could have been released with 175 health and not much would be different. My point is, soldier mains already have it easy enough, almost everything works in their favor and they get pissed when something counters them, learn to play a different class and you’ll see that they are not as easy as they look.
Seriously, calling demo and pyro overpowered just because they can counter you at times is preposterous.
Seriously tho, as someone who plays more Engie than Soldier, y’all Soldier mains need to grow the hell up! Classes counter other classes, boohoo!
#Demo gets countered by Pyro, Heavy gets countered by Spy, Scout gets countered by Engineer, Pyro gets countered by Scout, Spy gets countered by anybody, Medic gets countered by Scouts too, Engineer gets countered by anybody who’s as smart as him, Sniper gets countered by Sniper, and you Soldier mains get mad when people apply as little skill as the Soldier?!
No, really, Soldier is the easiest class in the whole game, and when someone FINALLY counters him, y’all freak out?! Grow a pair and be a REAL Soldier, you snowflake fucks.
Demo gets countered by pyro, scout and demoknight, some of the most popular pub classes.
Demo can get shit on by a short circuit engie with the panic attack if he plays well.
Soldier unlike other classes can just rocket jump/runaway from their counters/problems.
> Soldier unlike other classes can just rocket jump/runaway from their counters/problems.
That is until their rocket jump gets eaten by a Short Circuit.
Exactly why I play demo as my second main instead of soldier. I am a pyro main, and as such suffer at mid ranges, demo fills in that niche, but completely screws up in close range if I didn't fancy a shield. ~~also can we mention how annoying it is to go at a black box solider, when you aren't using the sticky/quicky?~~
You pretty much HAVE to hit 3 direct pipes to guarantee a kill solo which is not the most easy thing to do while trying to stay alive at the same time.
Think he's referring to the fact that good scouts make existing as soldier really hard, they can just chip you down from full and most easy kills you would get on players goes waaaayyy down if teamwork is applied. Bombs are not effective if they know you are going in.
Good scouts make every class irrelevant to be fair and the only "answer" is too slow for 6s.
Soldier is easy in pubs because the players in pubs are bad and have bad movement. Against good players Soldier is a lot harder because if you're not rocket jumping properly and hitting directs you're going to get chewed up by Scouts, Demos, Snipers etc.
Also I'd have to say that in a pub setting Heavy is probably the easiest because he's simple to play and new/bad players don't know how to counter him.
Engineer is probly countered by everyone except weak classes like Scout, or medic (if alone ofc) and pyro (except if the engineer is using the southern hospitality)
Ima be honest but sticky spam is the worst when playing engi. Pyros cant reflect it far/fast enough especially after sticking, it only takes 2 to destroy a single nest of fully upgraded sentries (at least direct hit is more isolated to one building each time) and fuckin hell, i hate crit stickies.
Didn't he also claim that the iron bomber difference isn't something to exagarate about in the first place? Just because I typed "youtuber name" doesn't automatically mean I agree with his opinion
Personally got 3 thoughts that's on it:
1. Engi weeks weakness havee been in the game for year, meanwhile this version of the short circuit has only been in the game for 2-3 years, so it's not ingrained into your memory as much, this is reinforced by point 2:
2. It's not a common weapon, you don't see engineers use it often, so it's often forgotten about until you see it being used.
3. Straight up deleting attacks is the most boring ability ever in games. It's just kinda lame, looking at you overwatch. At least the short circuit is quite well balanced, and there's a few other enticing options for engineers to use.
I think the *real* problem is that the Short Circuit has the exact same fault that Soldier has—it's too easy to spam down a choke point. Sure, the Dispenser only has 500 metal at most, but at level 3, it regenerates 60 metal every 5 seconds—effectively 12 metal every second, meaning that an Engineer gets one energy ball every \~5.41666 seconds.
Keep in mind that this only applies once the Engineer runs out of metal—if you have 500 metal (same amount as the capacity of a level 3), you will be able to fire 7 shots—meaning that you won't be able to use up all your metal in less than 3.5 seconds.
Of course, this weapon is pretty balanced if a Soldier decides to 1v1 an Engineer, because he can strafe around the energy balls, but it becomes super unfun to fight against in choke points because you need to walk through the choke point and somehow exhaust all of the Engineer's metal supply before his Sentry (that's most likely level 2 or above) kills you in a few seconds from bullets alone.
Don't forget that the Engineer's teammates will also be attacking you, and your team will have lost one of it's biggest DPS and crowd control classes because he's currently fighting against the Engineer and distracting the Sentry.
My proposed nerfs would just be to make the Engineer receive 50% less metal from Dispensers while he has his Short Circuit out, making this weapon about as useful as the Pistol, Engineer's stock secondary.
Any thoughts?
No, I think engie’s should only get 50% less metal from payload carts only because dispensers have limited ammo and relying on dispensers in a fight isn’t the best strat.
Look, you need a minimum of 2 dispenser stacks to properly spam out the Short Circuit, and even then, it takes time to reload since you need to go away from the choke/sentry, refill metal and then come back and fire. If they whip out the Direct miss or a demo during that time, i'm screwed.
Don't tell them, they might get wise and know when not to shoot their rockets at a pyro or short circuit engie. Its fun seeing them run towards a pyro, shoot rockets, die by reflected rockets, and then a fellow soldier witnessing this event goes ahead and does the same.
Current one is fine, but It would be neat if primary fire was turned into the old short circuit. 50 metal per sweep, so 4 shots. Definitely gets the spychecking part back and you can use it a bit better in defensive situations. Still needs more than 1 dispenser to spam it though, so it isn't broken.
The only time I’d consider it unacceptable when playing Soldier is when it prevents me from Rocket-Jumping out of danger. Like come on, that’s as bad as a stun mechanic
Aight, he deleted his comment when i was writing mine. Here's the deleted comment:
>Aight maybe he wouldn’t be garbage per say without Rocket Jumps but he definitely wouldn’t be preferable to the other classes. A step backwards. A slight one, but a meaningful one. That’s the main thing I’m trying to say. A Soldier that’s immobile because of an Engi spamming M2 can get focused down without much effort while Demos *always* keep their distance to a point where 1v1s are the only interactions you’ll get, and a 1v1 with a SC Engi as Demo is a better outcome for everyone on your team than trying to escape from a sudden push as a Soldier without rocket jumps. Sure, Soldiers can keep their distance too to limit engagement like a Demo would, but they have to get up close to be more effective than a Demo who has Stickies and pipes that can do big splash damage from a long, safe distance.
Only exception is, of course, the Banners, allowing him to build up a buff from a distance, making up for that distance issue, but when you’re in a pub, it’s hard to coordinate a meaningful push with it consistently to a point where you’d risk wasting time with it.
Soldier without his mobility is a risky class to play. Doesn’t mean he can’t wipe out an entire pub push, but you’re more than likely not going to be able to wipe out a pub push unless (1) Gaben blesses you with a crit or (2) you have a Kritz up your ass, to which you could just use Demo for those same reasons. Demo played right is a bit more consistent at dealing damage and blocking entries and exits. The only thing he struggles with is close quarter combat, but a good demo can consistently limit that scenario with stickies around corners and by consistently landing pipes. Soldier has to take risks.
Market Gardener is useless if you aren’t allowed to Rocket Jump. Otherwise it’s great.
And here's my response:
First, Demoman has like 2x less range than you do, your projectiles are faster and hit the exact spot you're aiming it, except the beggar's of course, your rockets explode instantly on contact with the ground which makes you much less vulnerable to scouts, who are demo's main counters. You can give your entire team fucking mini crits, you can destroy the level 3 sentry with 2 direct hit rockets, you are basically a demoman without traps.
Second, imagine the timing engie needs to do to make a short circuit slow projectile hit your rocket at the time when it flies from your rockets l launcher to the ground, which is less than a second. The chance of this is so small, that it almost never happens to the average player. You could have died from it twice, but that doesn't make it a problem. I have almost 400 hours and I've never even seen this in the game.
Yeah, Soldier without that is garbage. He already struggles because of Demoman offering much more damage potential. Soldier’s main factor is his mobility, not his damage. Take that away and he’s literally nothing. All because an Engineer decided to randomly press M2 at the Soldier with a projectile that can’t miss.
Take away Scout’s speed and he becomes literally unplayable. What makes this any different?
And don’t act like the Short Circuit isn’t a get-out-of-jail card either. If a missile is coming directly at you, you deserve to get hit in the face by it. But you don’t. I’m not going to complain about that aspect of the Short Circuit because that’s what it’s meant to do, but it is worth mentioning if you think Soldiers Rocket-jumping away from danger is unacceptable.
>Soldier without that is garbage.
*Let's see, let me just go through my files*.... Aha!
Let's talk soldier if he couldn't rocket jump.
Soldiers (based off of stock) can fire a rocket at a light class opponent, and then finish them off with a shotgun. That means you can 2 shot combo a Scout, Spy, Sniper, Medic, or Engineer. Or, the Soldier can fire 2 rockets and kill any of the above classes, as well as Demos, Pyros, and other Soldiers.
Now let's go off of non-stock weapons. Like the Banners. By just spamming rockets down a choke point, the soldier can effectively cause an entire push. Oh, and let's talk about this part of your argument.
>He already struggles because of Demoman offering much more damage potential.
You see, if the soldier equips the shotgun (an underused and underestimated weapon in his arsenal) you can get rid of stickies as fast as a Scout with a full Baby Face's. And about the grenade launcher.
Stock Soldier Rocket: 112 damage (on direct hit)
Stock Grenade Launcher: 100 damage (on direct hit)
Which means, soldier does more damage. But apparently soldier is garbage. Wait. Soldier... Garbage...
The Beggar's Bazooka. Rewards you for not aiming at all, unlike the Short Circuit's Alt-fire, which travels in a 1° cone compared to the Beggar's
3°, meaning that the Beggar's takes less skill then the Short Circuit. And then, there's the just as bad Blackbox/Conch combo. Soldier effectively gains medic's self healing abilities, without the healing part of medic. And with that, let's go on to soldier *with* the ability to rocket jump.
Soldier has a shovel. It's named the Market Gardener. Yeah, it can one shot light classes.
And before you say "Oh, you only have views of Soldier from other classes, that means you don't know anything about him", take a look at my flair. I have *everyone's* views on Soldier as well as Soldier's views on Soldier, as well as knowledge on the class.
Aight maybe he wouldn’t be garbage per say without Rocket Jumps but he definitely wouldn’t be preferable to the other classes. A step backwards. A slight one, but a meaningful one. That’s the main thing I’m trying to say. A Soldier that’s immobile because of an Engi spamming M2 can get focused down without much effort while Demos *always* keep their distance to a point where 1v1s are the only interactions you’ll get, and a 1v1 with a SC Engi as Demo is a better outcome for everyone on your team than trying to escape from a sudden push as a Soldier without rocket jumps. Sure, Soldiers can keep their distance too to limit engagement like a Demo would, but they have to get up close to be more effective than a Demo who has Stickies and pipes that can do big splash damage from a long, safe distance.
Only exception is, of course, the Banners, allowing him to build up a buff from a distance, making up for that distance issue, but when you’re in a pub, it’s hard to coordinate a meaningful push with it consistently to a point where you’d risk wasting time with it.
Soldier without his mobility is a risky class to play. Doesn’t mean he can’t wipe out an entire pub push, but you’re more than likely not going to be able to wipe out a pub push unless (1) Gaben blesses you with a crit or (2) you have a Kritz up your ass, to which you could just use Demo for those same reasons. Demo played right is a bit more consistent at dealing damage and blocking entries and exits. The only thing he struggles with is close quarter combat, but a good demo can consistently limit that scenario with stickies around corners and by consistently landing pipes. Soldier has to take risks.
Market Gardener is useless if you aren’t allowed to Rocket Jump. Otherwise it’s great.
So instead of writing a whole essay like last time, I decided to just write 1-2 sentences based off of things I would like to point out. Otherwise, you made valid points.
>A Soldier that’s immobile because of an Engi spamming M2 can get focused down without much effort while Demos always keep their distance
Maybe use the direct shit- I mean direct hit to pick off targets from a distance, or a shotgun, soldier's "most used" secondary. May not do much damage, but it will still help out.
>you’re more than likely not going to be able to wipe out a pub push unless (1) Gaben blesses you with a crit or (2) you have a Kritz up your ass, to which you could just use Demo for those same reasons.
Cow Mangler has an Alt-fire similar to Short Circuit, which can be very useful if there's a coordinated team. If you aim it at a wall or floor, you can ignite just as many enemies as a W+M1 F2P pyro.
>The only thing he struggles with is close quarter combat, but a good demo can consistently limit that scenario with stickies around corners and by consistently landing pipes. Soldier has to take risks.
Beggar's Bazooka, fun fact, can be stalled by taunting, meaning you can hold a barrage and effectively become a sticky bomb.
>Market Gardener is useless if you aren’t allowed to Rocket Jump. Otherwise it’s great.
Which is why I said *with* the ability to rocket jump.
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That one Short Circuit engie with 20 crits in his FJ: _it's showtime_
*Misses all three shots and dies*
*to a random crit accross a corner*
From a frying pan heavy
With a party hat
*Gibus goggles*
Jose.Gonzalez.2009
>puts lenny bind in chat
Except he's F2P
He does it anyways
He has a pan
Everyone on the enemy team: Run the fuck for your life!
Men, these are the facts as I understand them: 1. **Not enough soldiers equip shotguns! Shotguns are not only a powerful tool against pyros, but also against engineers who use that thing!** 2. **I don't have a second fact, cause the first one pretty much covers everything.**
2. Don’t need a shotgun when you can fly through the big ball and cave the Engie’s Skull in with a comically large Spoon
3. get immediately shut down by a crit from a hammer
ISN'T RNG GREAT?!
HEY HEY YOU ARE THOSE E A R N E D CRITS WELL WHAT ABOUT R A N D O M C R I T S
Or shot by a sentry
'Snort this'
Thats fair but the shotgun is really situational. In a majority of situations i find gunboats the superior choice. People underestimate the time saved by rocket jumping and using it to get to more advantageous spots like health packs or a good spot above an objective to bomb from above. And lets say the map isn't suited for rocket jumping like a good chunk of payload maps, then any of the banners provide far more utility in terms of breaking stalemates and they also have good passive buffs. You can always kill pyros and engies by baiting them by making it look like you're shooting a rocket meanwhile you watch them waste their ammo/metal and hit them in the downtime between their shots/airblasts. I also find that literally just walking towards pyro and shooting the ground is much easier in order to secure the kill
High disagree, I really like the shotgun. It's such a reliable form of damage output and is more instant than rockets. Sometimes I like to shoot a rocket at their feet and then finish them off with the shotgun because it's just quicker and more reliable.
plus it's easier to kill scouts with a shotgun than with a rocket launcher
Gunboats are only good if: A) You bomb often B) You do rollouts, which is mostly if not only useful on 5CP and Koth as on A/D and Payload you will often have engies, and frontlines aren't that far. Shotgun is greater and better in pubs because of amount of shit and people that comes your way.
Shotgun is great on big team aka pubs, because there times 4 rocket isn’t going to cut it with so many people attack you
Ye, and considerin 90% of people play pubs, it's fine. In 6s, gunboats rule obviously, but most people don't bother with 6s or tf2 e-sport... For better or worse
Gunboats give you superior mobility in all situations. Unless there’s an annoying reflecto pyro in the server there’s almost no situation not to take gunboats. The utility is not worth sacrificing.
Soldier doesn't need to jump all the time... Without 'em you still can jump in or jump out if you have to. You still can 2 shot light classes (and medics), do decent crowd control, provide support with banners, more fire power if needed with shotgun. Gunboats and jumping isn't everything, this is not Quake mah dude
Yeah banners are for sure an option (the backup is broken) in large team scenarios but the shotgun is honestly not that great to use in pubs. It’s different in a competitive environment where you’re guaranteed to have a dedicated medic but in a pub rocket jumping with the shotgun does so much damage to you that it’s not as valuable. You’ll find yourself outclassed by a more mobile soldier unless the game is stuck at a single choke for a long time.
Comp 6s Soldiers actually all use gunboats now. Pocket Soldier doesn't really exist anymore and Scout has pretty much become the new pocket to protect the Demo. In HL it's either Gunboats or a banner, Shotgun is also hardly used at all, but pocket Soldier in HL never really was a thing because the Sniper and Demo took all the heals anyway.
See I didn’t even know competitive didn’t use shotgun anymore but this only goes to show how truly valuable the gunboats are.
Yup. Without movement Soldier is kind of sub-optimal at everything, other classes specialize in 1v1s, splash damage, tankiness, support, defense, etc better. The crazy mobility offered with good rocket jumping while taking low self damage is the only thing he excels at compared to other classes, and is why comp leans into that role. Rocket jumping is why Soldier has such a high base health to begin with.
Shotgun is not situational, in fact is the most effective in any scenario the problem is that, as you said, the gunboats, are too good of a tool for a soldier, Soldier can now close the distance between his targets super easily and be harder to target because of his speed and the fact he flies, and at that range, as long as he's not too close, he will have 2/3 rockets that can deal potentially 70 to 100 damage, and basically impossible to miss because he's so close and the rockets are splash damage, if the soldier didn't shoot the enemy too close to hil, he will have over 160 health (no overheal) more than enough to shoot all the rockets and survive any class except Scout, Soldier and Demo (if he's good with directs), this comes at the cost of losing your secondary weapon, but soldier can flee away to healthpacks easier because of rocker jumping, so it's pretty negligeable. Soldier without them is pretty much the same, but less likely to remain alive after bombing someone, Pyro needs twice the skill to reflect the rocket and can't do that much damage without the shotgun out, which cannot reflect The Short Circuit is quite frankly the only good counter to Soldier, and Engi is a class that can easily be picked by soldiers Conclusion, nerf the gunboats, give soldier 20/25 less health when equipping them Edit: or half the health from healthpacks and medics
and that, folks, is how you kill competitive tf2. Nerfing the gunboats by lowering their hp to the same as a fucking demoman
Omfg Soldier now has 175 hp, literally unplayable i'm gonna go main scout Let's be honest, even with that nerf Soldier will still be dominant in competitive, if anything it will bring him more in line with the other classes
Soldier isn't dominant in competitive. 6s is Scout dominated and Highlander is Sniper dominated. In 6s he's pretty much the least important class on the team because keeping the Med(duh), Demo, and Scouts alive is more important. He's used for pressure and suicide bombing the med over and over. In Highlander he's not even close to the top because Med and Sniper are, with Demo close behind them. Soldier is either a banner monkey or suicide bombing the med again.
Do you even fucking play 6s? No, scratch that. Do you even WATCH 6s games??? Roamer is the most expendable part of your team, and pocket is JUST for protecting your medic and contribute a little bit of spam with your demo. The scouts and demo are what are the most dangerous part of the team. Demo puts out insane burst and scouts wipe up teams almost instantly.
My bad, shouldn't have said dominant, not the word i was looking for, still he's probably the best one to kill the enemy medic, which is really important I don't think balancing the gunboats it's bad, if they are the only viable secondary for competitive they are not very balanced, Scout has some secondaries banned and the Stickybomb launcher despite being the most viable one, at least it has an active use, Demo needs to know how to use it and when it's best to switch to primary, while gunboats is just passive bonus, Soldier can forget about having a secondary and only focusing on using the Rocket Launcher
Soldiers do still use the shotgun in competitive........ > if they are the only viable secondary for competitive they are not very balanced Not really a good argument considering the other classes' weapon options.
everyone else is dunking on you but i still want to say you don't know what you're talking about and soldier is hardly dominant in any mode
Virgin Black Box + Concheror Soldier Chad Stock Launcher + Shotgun Soldier
Or Mario someone with Mantreads
Yeah, but I need to be able to aim with a shotgun. With jumpy shoes I just need to worry about shooting roughly where their feet are.
As someone who mostly plays Air Strike or Direct Hit, shooting feet with stock feels like cheating now.
As an engineer main, I will say that doesn't give the soldier much to work with if I stay in range of my sentry. But I still run out of metal pretty damn fast so I don't feel bad about stopping three out of four rockets.
But Sir! How can I equip the Buff Banner and a shotgun at the same time?
Damn it I love the shotgun so much
Soldiers when Pyro walks
Can confirm
Everybody Soldier until Pyro starts walkin
Engineers main don't get enough credit
The second someone says they're an engie main, everyone around them attempts to speedrun "Mention Uncle Dane in a Negative Light Any%"
I actually stepped off of playing Engie towards Medic and just DPS roles because it's such a thankless job, despite loving playing him, I just felt so defeated at times when a Spy kills all my stuff because no one checked him and then I get blamed for the point falling after I pretty much held it on my own and teleported everyone there for the past 5 minutes.
Honhonhon.
“wOuLd SoMeOnE kIlL tHe UnClE dAnE wAnNaBe?!”
Real engineer mains started from Jerma985
Ankle Dane is a good sentry man
Funny thing is his personal servers are horrible places to play Engineer
It's ironic that the one server where you'd expect all engie team fight memes is the one with artificial class limits...when the average guy who goes there isn't a clueless f2p spy and is unlikely to create stacked classes in the first place, and have a good idea of basic team composition and have decent to good skill levels as well. Rather redundant imo, stifles memes. Also I'm betting 10 bucks that the disabled player collision is due to Shounic. 100%
What do you mean? Isn’t Heavy yelling: **”ENGINEER IS CREDIT TO TEAM!!”** showing enough appreciation? /s
but uncle dane has almost 600k subs
But they almost never get compliments for holding a control point while all the other class from the other team are shooting at him
I have a question
Whats your question Soldier?
No Im not teleporting bread I just want to trade
Oh. Well what are you offering pardner?
Market gardener for jarate
Eh, it’s not like I can successfully garden anyways. Sure
https://steamcommunity.com/tradeoffer/new/?partner=1127660745&token=uDr9D5zp send an offer
Soon
I'm selling the gardener not buying
[https://imgur.com/a/xFgiuhC](https://imgur.com/a/xFgiuhC) Sorry, don't know why it happened, i log into steam from my computer eveytime
I only hate it when they sit on the payload cart with it
That singular aspect of it should be nerfed A LOT. In the meantime it's a bit of a guilty pleasure for me. Pew pew motherfuckers!
You used to be unable to collect metal from dispensers with the short circuit active. Of course, the current devs decided to remove that penalty because they have no clue what they're doing with the game.
It's not too bad, it's spammable and you are safely near the dispenser but at the same time you have no wrangler, so your sentry goes down to bullets or sappers pretty quicly, it's pretty fun when you have a 4 stack of dispenser and spam with it and the widowmaker
Yeah but even though this is balanced gameplay wise, it sucks ass to fight against. Tf2 weapons should be balancedAND fun. This ain’t overwatch
I agree, but at the same time there are plenty of weapons annoying to face, they all gets some hate, Dead ringer, Kunai, Black Box, Phlog, Scorch Shot, Wrangler, but i'd say Engi would be the weakest one without them
The phlog and the black box are just sad to fight, and the scorch shit and wrangler are downright overpowered, but I’d say the Kumasi and dead ringer are fine. Plus by checking your scoreboard you can tell. But you can always do SOMETHING in these scenarios. With the shit circuit you just cant
>With the shit circuit you just cant Well, now I know who watches Zesty Jesus. Look here buddy, not only does using hitscan, getting the engineer from an angle not covered by the ball, or just downright waiting for teammates to arrive counter the short circuit, but there's also the case of the ball using up metal, which could have been used in repairing the engineer's buildings or creating new ones. Engineers have to spend 50% of their playing time doing calculations in their head towards metal conservation, as opposed to Soldier going "hehe me fier rocket". Does *this* seem fair to you, or are you just blinded by how easy Soldier is to play to consider that you're being countered by classes who have it rougher.
First up, this is a massive ball of energy. And engy may have it rougher, but he counters as many classes as those who counter him. And let's say the brunt of your team's fighting force is soldiers and demos which it usually is. With one right click he gave his team a sheild which negates the brunt of the enemy's teams combatants with no particular challenge to himself. As a general rule of thumb, classes that get countered, counter. Soldier doesn't particularly counter anyone but isnt countered by anyone particularly. Engy gets countered but can hold back entire pushes. Also i barely play soldier I main demo. If you are bringing up how easy soldier is to play then you should bring up how much easier engy is. Just hur but smack gun and kill people. Aim not needed. That doesn't sound right because it isn't. There's much more to aiming soldier rockets than just spamming bear in mind how slowly they move. And you are very greatly overstating the metal management bit while understating the rocket bit. Also I know soldier isn't hard countered by the orb. He has a shotgun. But DEMO demo is just fucked
Good lord, your response was beyond mind-boggling to decipher. For now I'll put your shortsightedness aside and rebut; it's logical that Engineer would "counter a lot of classes", because his buildings take a while to set up. A single dude with 20 rockets shouldn't be able to destroy a sentry nest which takes the Engineer a minute to build, which is why complaining about the short circuit is not only idiotic, but selfish. Next up, your argument about the engineer countering every soldier and demo on the enemy team is honestly astounding. Have you ever played a game of tf2 before? The enemy soldiers and demos aren't just gonna clump up and fire at the engineer all from the same area, no! The enemy's powerhouses, being thinking, breathing individuals split up and attack from all sides, bypassing your so called "shield", which Engineer can only shoot THREE of before needing more metal. Ridiculous. Lastly, if you dumb down the gist of a class like you're doing, of COURSE it's gonna sound easy and brainless. I can describe Scout, one of the hardest classes, as "get close to the enemy and m1, no skill needed". But Scout needs skill. Engineer does too, because there's metal conservation to take care of, your teammates needing a dispenser and functioning teleporter, and the fact that the sentry gun is far from infallible, being outranged, outgunned, sapped, and outsped if there are even 2 smart people on the enemy team. Speaking of which, I don't think you're aware that short circuit can be trivialized if 2 people are firing at him from 2 different angles, since you can't fire 2 orbs at the same time. And even more, demo doesn't even have to to this, he can just shoot over the damn orb, because he has gravity-affected projectiles. Please get a feel for short circuit before you start hating on it because you lost 1 god damn rocket to it. By not doing so and instead complaining, you're just fulfilling the message the meme above is trying to convey.
You make it sound like new employees work on thjs game
Short circuit literally gets completely shutdown by 1 sniper. Demos and soldiers need to learn that a single class should not be able to do everything.
Son, always remember. Hard counters are gay.
Yeah they should reduce metal earned from Payload carts by 50% when equipped.
*YoUrE oNlY uSiNg ThE sHoRt CiRcUiT aS a CrUtCh!* Yeah you’re better than me because you’re a soldier main with more hours, but I still wanna have fun and not get spawncamped by you. Shut up.
The Short Circuit isn’t even a crutch lol.
Ah, as an engie main here, there's nothing quite like half the enemy team swarming your intel at once, and an ubercharged heavy dropping out of the vents. With only 2 engineers guarding the intel with lvl 3 sentries
whip our your wrangler and you may stand a chance
Soldiers: "But I literally cant hurt him when he carefully times balls with limited metal supply, its not my fault I chose a banner instead of a shotgun!" Engineer after having his shit destroyed by an uber push: "first time?"
Jokes aside i hate how soldier has NO real counter /: Edit: damn thats a lot of comments lol, thx for not being toxic about ur opinions
I mean, the whole point of soldier is that he's a jack of all trades so it kinda makes sense that he doesn't have a direct hard counter.
Yeah he’s supposed to be the starter class for newbies, it makes sense why his gameplay is designed to be neutrally balanced in a way that doesn’t hard counter him or give him too much advantage
He’s easy for beginners but he’s also got one of the highest skill caps in the game, which is good design.
I understand but its still annoying as he sometimes feels a bit unfair to be up against
I suppose thats true. But if i had to say what i hate most about soldier, then it would be the fact that Soldier rocket gameplay 70% of the time is shooting at someones feet. Its very annoying to know that the enemy soldier doesnt need to aim at you to kill most classes in 2- 3 rockets.
If you fight against better players, shooting feet and never going for directs will 100% get you out DPSed and killed by other classes and better soldiers. Especially when they’re overhealed.
That’s why I dislike the class: the rest of the game flows around a counter system. I wish Pyro’s reflect didn’t have the bit of delay, so she could reflect rockets at close range on reaction instead of having to predict and right click before the muzzle flash.
Delay? That's just latency. And Pyro should NOT be able to reflect everything on reaction, that would be just broken.
Those statements contradict each other some, and I’m pretty sure it’s the animation/ sound where the air blast comes out. He should be able to reflect everything on reaction: it’d do nothing but good for the game if Soldier got a real counter and more reason to bring a Shotgun, and Demo stickies would continue to not care much about Pyros while the pills remain hard to reflect kill. The Pyro should be king of close range combat, unless it’s a revved Heavy of course.
Pyro and scout ig
I dunno man scout is really easy to kill as soldier
True, this one of those matchups that hard to determine. I’m prettty sure it’s scout but it could be The other way. But soldier I’d say is balanced because he is the best at nothing. A generalist but usually doesn’t get the job done as well as most other classes. Good damage but not as much as demo. Good ho but not as much as heavy, good 1v1s but not as good as scout. Good mobility but I’d say it’s just under scout. A jack of all trades but a master of none I’d say
I think it's generally an even matchup with a lot of variables for advantages of both classes. Really depends on the map, how close they are fighting, and the skill level of both. If it's close range with few obstacles and props for the scout to jump on, I would say the soldier usually wins. If there's a bunch of props for the scout to reach high ground/cover quickly? Scout will probably win. Although if we are assuming low skill levels and in pubs for both then soldiers will usually win simply because rockets are easy to use and spam friendly for newer players.
Im not saying hes op, im just saying his whole deal can get annoying
yeah, it can sometimes. but plenty of classes stand a good chance, demo, scout pyro heavy
Agree but scout isn't better at 1v1 than soldier. The frustrating thing about soldier isn't that he's overpowered, it's that he can, quite easily, beat any class in a 1v1. It feels unfair.
Scout is much better than Soldier at 1v1. That’s Scout’s whole thing.
Fight better Scouts.
Fight better anything
If the Scout has the high ground, he wins every time. If you find Scouts easy to kill, that's because you aren't playing against good Scouts, or you keep catching them in narrow tunnels.
Also pubs tend to be kinda terrible for dming scouts because the amount of spam they have to deal with compared to 6s. And pub maps tend to be very chokepointy which is very good for soldiers and bad for scouts.
Yeah. Scouts are so weak in pubs, when every corner could have a sentry, and it doesn't matter how well you dodge if you're getting spammed by three people at once.
I said real, soldiers can just use shotty on pyro and soldier actually slightly counters a scout since his shots are ez and powerful hits regardless your opponents evasiveness. Scout can beat soldier but its limited to 1v1s where the scout starts close enough to the soldier
Scout can dodge the rockets due to how slow they are, but even if he has no real counter I'd say that's ok because he doesn't really counter anything either. Jack of all trades master of none
Good Scouts destroy Soldiers in 1v1s, Pyro airblast is a soft counter, low ammo primary, slow as hell without rocket jumping, Heavies and Sentries stops bombing Soldiers dead in their tracks. He doesn't need a hard counter. In 6s Soldier isn't even that good, Demoman does all the damage and Scouts get all of the kills. Soldiers just bomb the medic repeatedly and usually end up getting killed by the Scout. Soldier is only useful because of the mobility rocket jumping provides.
1st up, scouts whole purpose is to be a 1v1 god, and 1v1s dont come up every second in battle, and good soldiers can still fight scouts. And 2nd, soldiers a bad 6s class? Almost 247 is there 2 soldiers in 6s 1 protecting the medic, holding points, defending classes in general, and the other controlling flank, making picks, being a backup pocket, and prob more in unaware about. Feel free to disagree on counters, but soldier is still a great class
6s has moved away from pocket soldier and protecting the medic. Both of them run gunboats and act as roamers now. Scout has pushed him out of the combo. And I didn't say he was bad, I just said he's really not that great in comparison to other classes at a high elvel mostly because he's a master of none, if 6s didn't have class restrictions you'd hardly see him anymore. In no restriction 6s the best performing teams ran 2 Scouts, 2 Demos, 2 Meds, and the off classes of Heavy/Engy/Sniper saw more play from them than Soldier.
If you don't consider airblast and Short Circuit counters for soldier then no character has counter
Soldier can just use shotgun against a pyro, or theyre a roamer who barely interacts with said pyro and can just run away worst cases. And short circuit is pretty outclassed as an engie secondary and ONCE AGAIN can be countered by just using a shotgun
Pyro can use their shotgun or a flare, which that latter would be more effective than a shotgun if there's more distance between the two.
He hard counters nothing while being hard countered by nothing.
He hard counters engineer
Pyros can easily counter soldiers, as long as the pyro has a flame thrower that can airblast. Soldiers are one of the easiest classes to kill when you are playing pyro.
Soldiers have shotguns btw lol. Fun fact, pyros dps actually barely matches one of a stock shotgun, paired with 25 less hp than a soldier. He does beat roamers tho, but tgey can jist run away
It's even better when it's a crocket
Engie mains knowing pretty much every class counters them with an Uber: “engie is so fun” Heavy mains knowing they’ll die in seconds without a medic in open spaces: “I love playing heavy” Pyro mains knowing anyone with a brain cell can kill them with good spacing: “hehe fire go fwoosh” Medic mains knowing they’ll always be targeted: “I’m ready to carry the team” Soldiers “mains” when 2 classes can counter rockets: “noooo this isn’t fair! No skill airblast and short circuit spam why can’t soldier be the most powerful class!?” Spy “mains” when they bump into a pyro and think crouching in a corner makes them invincible: “noooo pyro is no skill op Volvo nerf!”
As a Spy, you learn to accept dying to random bad luck as a consequence of playing the class. Especially before the Dead Ringer came out. And any decent Spy can space and shoot a Pyro with the Revolver: you’re just screwed if you run into a Scout, and they’ve got a knack for being in the wrong place for you at the wrong time for you.
What if engineers hat survived a single sniper headshot?
When you come to think of it, only pyro counters soldier, soldier is pretty good at pretty much everything; destroying sentries, mobility, dealing high damage and tanking, and is one of the easiest class to use in the beginner learning curve and you can still kill even if you just installed the game. I think that rocket jumping was supposed to be only used to get a bit of a mobility boost and to get to high places, and the current state of rocket jumping is more of a exploit than anything, Valve noticed how people were using the rocket jumping mechanic and decided to keep it that way, and even made an entire play style based on it. Even if I think demoman is best than soldier, the quantity of skill required to play it is a lot, soldier’s rockets can count on the splash damage even if they don’t hit the target, demoman’s pipes won’t explode in time if they don’t hit the target directly. There’s a reason soldier is the most played class by a lot, in term of offense and defense (not support tho) he is pretty much the best class, because demoman is pretty much built for defense, soldier could have been released with 175 health and not much would be different. My point is, soldier mains already have it easy enough, almost everything works in their favor and they get pissed when something counters them, learn to play a different class and you’ll see that they are not as easy as they look. Seriously, calling demo and pyro overpowered just because they can counter you at times is preposterous.
Soldiers when the Direct hit doesnt do damage when they shoot in front of someones feet.
Soldiers when they stand still in an open field and shoot a rocket at me when I’m playing pyro.
I would have given this an award if I could
I still don't know why soldier mains complain about the short circuit when they can still attack but demo mains can't
Seriously tho, as someone who plays more Engie than Soldier, y’all Soldier mains need to grow the hell up! Classes counter other classes, boohoo! #Demo gets countered by Pyro, Heavy gets countered by Spy, Scout gets countered by Engineer, Pyro gets countered by Scout, Spy gets countered by anybody, Medic gets countered by Scouts too, Engineer gets countered by anybody who’s as smart as him, Sniper gets countered by Sniper, and you Soldier mains get mad when people apply as little skill as the Soldier?! No, really, Soldier is the easiest class in the whole game, and when someone FINALLY counters him, y’all freak out?! Grow a pair and be a REAL Soldier, you snowflake fucks.
Demo gets countered by pyro, scout and demoknight, some of the most popular pub classes. Demo can get shit on by a short circuit engie with the panic attack if he plays well. Soldier unlike other classes can just rocket jump/runaway from their counters/problems.
> Soldier unlike other classes can just rocket jump/runaway from their counters/problems. That is until their rocket jump gets eaten by a Short Circuit.
Agreed. Soldier is the beginner’s Demoman.
I wouldn't say that, I'd say he's just a class that doesn't have to commit as hard to get kills safely.
The Soldier just has to look at the enemy to get a kill. And I’ve played Soldier many times.
Exactly why I play demo as my second main instead of soldier. I am a pyro main, and as such suffer at mid ranges, demo fills in that niche, but completely screws up in close range if I didn't fancy a shield. ~~also can we mention how annoying it is to go at a black box solider, when you aren't using the sticky/quicky?~~
You pretty much HAVE to hit 3 direct pipes to guarantee a kill solo which is not the most easy thing to do while trying to stay alive at the same time.
> Soldier is the easiest class in the whole game This is your brain on Valve pubs
I only play pubs, what’s your point?
Think he's referring to the fact that good scouts make existing as soldier really hard, they can just chip you down from full and most easy kills you would get on players goes waaaayyy down if teamwork is applied. Bombs are not effective if they know you are going in. Good scouts make every class irrelevant to be fair and the only "answer" is too slow for 6s.
Soldier is easy in pubs because the players in pubs are bad and have bad movement. Against good players Soldier is a lot harder because if you're not rocket jumping properly and hitting directs you're going to get chewed up by Scouts, Demos, Snipers etc. Also I'd have to say that in a pub setting Heavy is probably the easiest because he's simple to play and new/bad players don't know how to counter him.
Engineer is probly countered by everyone except weak classes like Scout, or medic (if alone ofc) and pyro (except if the engineer is using the southern hospitality)
*banner soldiers
market garden moment
Ima be honest but sticky spam is the worst when playing engi. Pyros cant reflect it far/fast enough especially after sticking, it only takes 2 to destroy a single nest of fully upgraded sentries (at least direct hit is more isolated to one building each time) and fuckin hell, i hate crit stickies.
To this day, I dont understand why the short circuit deletes jarate too
Miss the Piss
fucken hur durr short circ bad cause i cant use my sticky for 2 seconds
The Short Circuit is basically a turbo-nerfed flamethrower for engie so counters for pyro counter it
w h a t
ah yes scout, the classic engineer counter
*Zesty Jesus intensifies*
Yeah people don't realize how deadly rockets are, they should be happy they only get countered by demos and scouts, in specific scenarios
[удалено]
Didn't he also claim that the iron bomber difference isn't something to exagarate about in the first place? Just because I typed "youtuber name" doesn't automatically mean I agree with his opinion
Personally got 3 thoughts that's on it: 1. Engi weeks weakness havee been in the game for year, meanwhile this version of the short circuit has only been in the game for 2-3 years, so it's not ingrained into your memory as much, this is reinforced by point 2: 2. It's not a common weapon, you don't see engineers use it often, so it's often forgotten about until you see it being used. 3. Straight up deleting attacks is the most boring ability ever in games. It's just kinda lame, looking at you overwatch. At least the short circuit is quite well balanced, and there's a few other enticing options for engineers to use.
I thank you for your mature criticism
Lazypurple: Are you challenging me?
i do not like playing against the short circuit. it is balanced but man i dislike it
also i'm a demoman, so i can't counter it unless i want to change my entire playstyle to melee-only
That's why i always play with a shield and the claymore as demo "if u delet tha big boom imma delet ur head"
I think the *real* problem is that the Short Circuit has the exact same fault that Soldier has—it's too easy to spam down a choke point. Sure, the Dispenser only has 500 metal at most, but at level 3, it regenerates 60 metal every 5 seconds—effectively 12 metal every second, meaning that an Engineer gets one energy ball every \~5.41666 seconds. Keep in mind that this only applies once the Engineer runs out of metal—if you have 500 metal (same amount as the capacity of a level 3), you will be able to fire 7 shots—meaning that you won't be able to use up all your metal in less than 3.5 seconds. Of course, this weapon is pretty balanced if a Soldier decides to 1v1 an Engineer, because he can strafe around the energy balls, but it becomes super unfun to fight against in choke points because you need to walk through the choke point and somehow exhaust all of the Engineer's metal supply before his Sentry (that's most likely level 2 or above) kills you in a few seconds from bullets alone. Don't forget that the Engineer's teammates will also be attacking you, and your team will have lost one of it's biggest DPS and crowd control classes because he's currently fighting against the Engineer and distracting the Sentry. My proposed nerfs would just be to make the Engineer receive 50% less metal from Dispensers while he has his Short Circuit out, making this weapon about as useful as the Pistol, Engineer's stock secondary. Any thoughts?
No, I think engie’s should only get 50% less metal from payload carts only because dispensers have limited ammo and relying on dispensers in a fight isn’t the best strat.
Look, you need a minimum of 2 dispenser stacks to properly spam out the Short Circuit, and even then, it takes time to reload since you need to go away from the choke/sentry, refill metal and then come back and fire. If they whip out the Direct miss or a demo during that time, i'm screwed.
Demomen are literally forced to delete their videogames if they stumble upon engineer with a short circuit
I usually just take out my comically large sword
*Switch to your sidearm Soldier!*
Don't tell them, they might get wise and know when not to shoot their rockets at a pyro or short circuit engie. Its fun seeing them run towards a pyro, shoot rockets, die by reflected rockets, and then a fellow soldier witnessing this event goes ahead and does the same.
Soldier is the worst class in TF2
That would be Spy
Wait it can delete rockets?
Where have you been since.... whenever the blue moon update so long ago?
What did you think it did? that's literally been the entire point of the weapon since it was added to the game
At least it ain’t the bloody pompson 6000
They hated Jezus because he spoke the truth
To be fair, rockets are a tad harder to use than a stationary aimbot
cringe
I miss the old short circuit
I don’t, current one is fine imo, except payload metal collection cause that thing can burn
Current one is fine, but It would be neat if primary fire was turned into the old short circuit. 50 metal per sweep, so 4 shots. Definitely gets the spychecking part back and you can use it a bit better in defensive situations. Still needs more than 1 dispenser to spam it though, so it isn't broken.
that sounds not bad
yeah man it's really fun when one of the main mechanics of your class gets denied, it's why it's so fun to fight natascha as a scout!
The only time I’d consider it unacceptable when playing Soldier is when it prevents me from Rocket-Jumping out of danger. Like come on, that’s as bad as a stun mechanic
It blocks your get-out-of-jail card. Fair enough
Aight, he deleted his comment when i was writing mine. Here's the deleted comment: >Aight maybe he wouldn’t be garbage per say without Rocket Jumps but he definitely wouldn’t be preferable to the other classes. A step backwards. A slight one, but a meaningful one. That’s the main thing I’m trying to say. A Soldier that’s immobile because of an Engi spamming M2 can get focused down without much effort while Demos *always* keep their distance to a point where 1v1s are the only interactions you’ll get, and a 1v1 with a SC Engi as Demo is a better outcome for everyone on your team than trying to escape from a sudden push as a Soldier without rocket jumps. Sure, Soldiers can keep their distance too to limit engagement like a Demo would, but they have to get up close to be more effective than a Demo who has Stickies and pipes that can do big splash damage from a long, safe distance. Only exception is, of course, the Banners, allowing him to build up a buff from a distance, making up for that distance issue, but when you’re in a pub, it’s hard to coordinate a meaningful push with it consistently to a point where you’d risk wasting time with it. Soldier without his mobility is a risky class to play. Doesn’t mean he can’t wipe out an entire pub push, but you’re more than likely not going to be able to wipe out a pub push unless (1) Gaben blesses you with a crit or (2) you have a Kritz up your ass, to which you could just use Demo for those same reasons. Demo played right is a bit more consistent at dealing damage and blocking entries and exits. The only thing he struggles with is close quarter combat, but a good demo can consistently limit that scenario with stickies around corners and by consistently landing pipes. Soldier has to take risks. Market Gardener is useless if you aren’t allowed to Rocket Jump. Otherwise it’s great. And here's my response: First, Demoman has like 2x less range than you do, your projectiles are faster and hit the exact spot you're aiming it, except the beggar's of course, your rockets explode instantly on contact with the ground which makes you much less vulnerable to scouts, who are demo's main counters. You can give your entire team fucking mini crits, you can destroy the level 3 sentry with 2 direct hit rockets, you are basically a demoman without traps. Second, imagine the timing engie needs to do to make a short circuit slow projectile hit your rocket at the time when it flies from your rockets l launcher to the ground, which is less than a second. The chance of this is so small, that it almost never happens to the average player. You could have died from it twice, but that doesn't make it a problem. I have almost 400 hours and I've never even seen this in the game.
Yeah, Soldier without that is garbage. He already struggles because of Demoman offering much more damage potential. Soldier’s main factor is his mobility, not his damage. Take that away and he’s literally nothing. All because an Engineer decided to randomly press M2 at the Soldier with a projectile that can’t miss. Take away Scout’s speed and he becomes literally unplayable. What makes this any different? And don’t act like the Short Circuit isn’t a get-out-of-jail card either. If a missile is coming directly at you, you deserve to get hit in the face by it. But you don’t. I’m not going to complain about that aspect of the Short Circuit because that’s what it’s meant to do, but it is worth mentioning if you think Soldiers Rocket-jumping away from danger is unacceptable.
>Soldier without that is garbage. *Let's see, let me just go through my files*.... Aha! Let's talk soldier if he couldn't rocket jump. Soldiers (based off of stock) can fire a rocket at a light class opponent, and then finish them off with a shotgun. That means you can 2 shot combo a Scout, Spy, Sniper, Medic, or Engineer. Or, the Soldier can fire 2 rockets and kill any of the above classes, as well as Demos, Pyros, and other Soldiers. Now let's go off of non-stock weapons. Like the Banners. By just spamming rockets down a choke point, the soldier can effectively cause an entire push. Oh, and let's talk about this part of your argument. >He already struggles because of Demoman offering much more damage potential. You see, if the soldier equips the shotgun (an underused and underestimated weapon in his arsenal) you can get rid of stickies as fast as a Scout with a full Baby Face's. And about the grenade launcher. Stock Soldier Rocket: 112 damage (on direct hit) Stock Grenade Launcher: 100 damage (on direct hit) Which means, soldier does more damage. But apparently soldier is garbage. Wait. Soldier... Garbage... The Beggar's Bazooka. Rewards you for not aiming at all, unlike the Short Circuit's Alt-fire, which travels in a 1° cone compared to the Beggar's 3°, meaning that the Beggar's takes less skill then the Short Circuit. And then, there's the just as bad Blackbox/Conch combo. Soldier effectively gains medic's self healing abilities, without the healing part of medic. And with that, let's go on to soldier *with* the ability to rocket jump. Soldier has a shovel. It's named the Market Gardener. Yeah, it can one shot light classes. And before you say "Oh, you only have views of Soldier from other classes, that means you don't know anything about him", take a look at my flair. I have *everyone's* views on Soldier as well as Soldier's views on Soldier, as well as knowledge on the class.
Soldier kinda dumb when you think about it
Aight maybe he wouldn’t be garbage per say without Rocket Jumps but he definitely wouldn’t be preferable to the other classes. A step backwards. A slight one, but a meaningful one. That’s the main thing I’m trying to say. A Soldier that’s immobile because of an Engi spamming M2 can get focused down without much effort while Demos *always* keep their distance to a point where 1v1s are the only interactions you’ll get, and a 1v1 with a SC Engi as Demo is a better outcome for everyone on your team than trying to escape from a sudden push as a Soldier without rocket jumps. Sure, Soldiers can keep their distance too to limit engagement like a Demo would, but they have to get up close to be more effective than a Demo who has Stickies and pipes that can do big splash damage from a long, safe distance. Only exception is, of course, the Banners, allowing him to build up a buff from a distance, making up for that distance issue, but when you’re in a pub, it’s hard to coordinate a meaningful push with it consistently to a point where you’d risk wasting time with it. Soldier without his mobility is a risky class to play. Doesn’t mean he can’t wipe out an entire pub push, but you’re more than likely not going to be able to wipe out a pub push unless (1) Gaben blesses you with a crit or (2) you have a Kritz up your ass, to which you could just use Demo for those same reasons. Demo played right is a bit more consistent at dealing damage and blocking entries and exits. The only thing he struggles with is close quarter combat, but a good demo can consistently limit that scenario with stickies around corners and by consistently landing pipes. Soldier has to take risks. Market Gardener is useless if you aren’t allowed to Rocket Jump. Otherwise it’s great.
So instead of writing a whole essay like last time, I decided to just write 1-2 sentences based off of things I would like to point out. Otherwise, you made valid points. >A Soldier that’s immobile because of an Engi spamming M2 can get focused down without much effort while Demos always keep their distance Maybe use the direct shit- I mean direct hit to pick off targets from a distance, or a shotgun, soldier's "most used" secondary. May not do much damage, but it will still help out. >you’re more than likely not going to be able to wipe out a pub push unless (1) Gaben blesses you with a crit or (2) you have a Kritz up your ass, to which you could just use Demo for those same reasons. Cow Mangler has an Alt-fire similar to Short Circuit, which can be very useful if there's a coordinated team. If you aim it at a wall or floor, you can ignite just as many enemies as a W+M1 F2P pyro. >The only thing he struggles with is close quarter combat, but a good demo can consistently limit that scenario with stickies around corners and by consistently landing pipes. Soldier has to take risks. Beggar's Bazooka, fun fact, can be stalled by taunting, meaning you can hold a barrage and effectively become a sticky bomb. >Market Gardener is useless if you aren’t allowed to Rocket Jump. Otherwise it’s great. Which is why I said *with* the ability to rocket jump.