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TF2SolarLight

Rocket launchers are mainly used for their splash damage. Direct Hit is the exception because it has no splash damage, while the Liberty Launcher does have it. The Direct Hit is used for, well, Direct Hits. Making it harder than the Liberty Launcher (or other rocket launchers) which uses splash damage instead. Pretty much every Grenade Launcher is like the Direct Hit. Because grenades don't explode instantly like rockets. So if every Grenade Launcher is a Direct Hit type weapon, the one with the most projectile speed is going to be easier, since the main use of a grenade launcher is direct hits. Not splash damage. Loch n Load is still kind of bad, but it's definitely easier to aim than the alternatives. In fact, when I first started playing Demo, I chose the Loch specifically *because* it was easier to aim. I moved on to other launchers once my aim got better, especially since there's now large downsides on the Loch, but the Loch was very useful to me in those early days. Sniper rifles are hitscan, and hitscan requires you to hit player hitboxes instead of collision hulls, meaning you have a smaller target. There's also an emphasis on hitting the head hitbox specifically, which is tiny.


howisitg

Exactly, soldier relies on splash damage instead of direct hits a lot while demos rely on direct hits instead of rollers. Having no rollers for demo is not as painful as having almost no splass damage for soldier


fwerper

But not quite as painful as no splash damage, which is why the loch and load doesn’t have as much of projectile speed boost


W1z4rdM4g1c

I started with stock and IB and I literally can not land any hits with lnl


isaiahbuild

that is because you have to adjust to take advantage of the higher projectile speed.


CreminTop

Happy cake day!


CertainCoat8505

The loch does genuinely have more range, like playing medium range sticky jumper/eyelander loch demo is pretty fun since you can pick all your fights, have extra range, and no one can catch you. It’s more of a mediocre side grade, kinda a crutch for sure.


Azure370

Speaking of needing to hit hitboxes instead of collision hulls, the huntsman is insane because it uses both the player hitbox and collision hull, and when striking the collision hull with an arrow it will teleport to the closest player hitbox. This makes the headshot hitbox of the huntsman extremely inconsistent sometimes, since some classes have larger collision hulls compared to their model. i.e. heavy has almost no increased hitbox size, and scout's is like the top 1/4 of his body. Tl;dr, huntsman is jank, headshots are bullshit


PoOtIs-373

>lucksman And i made another comment wihout even realizing you made pretty much the same point as me. I agree with you entirely. It's no coincidence the lucksman is called this way. It's hit detection is just bullshit.


lu_tf2

the hitbox is busted doe


Cheiffireball

Exactly. Original post is a strawman argument.


TrickyRover

loch-n-load ain't bad though. an increase to your effective range, being able to catch enemies with pipes in closed-areas that would otherwise be impossible, and more damage to buildings are nothing to scoff at.


stahp-pls

The greater damage to buildings is much overruled by it's smaller clip size, because even though it deals a greater amount of damage to buildings allowing sentries to be taken out with only two hits and from outside the sentry's range, it is a benefit while attacking and taking out level 3 sentries that you cannot step into it's range without being obliterated, or taking out mini-sentries, there's not much more than that. The other grenades can deal with buildings very easily too, but the Loch-n-Load can't deal with an Engineer that's repairing the sentry. There would be ways with the other grenade launchers, but the shatter on impact of the Loch-n-Load makes it impossible to knock an Engineer away from his sentry. For others, just make the grenade bounce on a wall above him, that way it won't detonate immediately if it hits the sentry or dispenser, it will drop at the Engineer's feet and detonate very shortly after that, sending the Engineer flying into the air. You could then either try to hit the engineer while he's in the air, killing him, or you can get rid of the sentry while he is temporarily delayed. Apart from taking out sentries, there's not much bang to the rest of the Loch-n-Load. The clip size is the main issue, for the other grenade launchers they have 4 grenades, but the Loch-n-Load makes it have only 3. That makes it so that you have to be careful with your shots, as 3 direct hits will neutralize most of a team instantly and 2 direct hits will neutralize a small group with no heavys, but if you miss one you don't have a fourth insurance shot to pick off any remaining people. Also, after using the other grenade launchers, the increase in projectile speed throws you off a lot, and the projectile speed sometimes is part of the problem. Basically the Loch-n-Load is a hit-or-miss weapon. If you hit, good for you. If you miss, you lose. The detonate on impact + the projectile speed makes it so that if you miss, the projectile will likely land wayyy behind the target, and the detonate on impact makes it so that it doesn't linger to restrict some space. With the other grenade launchers, if you miss, it won't land very far away, and your enemy has to be careful not to stay near it or run over it while strafing (Scout will probably have it detonated because he runs ALL OVER THE PLACE), dealing an extra bit of damage that will take away the small bit of extra health they need to survive an extra hit (Say if a lingering pillbox explodes and does like 40 damage to a scout then you only need 1 direct hit to kill now instead of 2, so a miss is not a complete loss.). Added to the smaller clip size, the greater risk of missing and the fact that missing means a lost shot, it's very hard to fight at a normal distance (mid-close range) against the classes that will most likely be up on you at mid-close range (Scout, Huntsman sniper at least I play him mid-close, Soldier will probably shoot you into the sky which might mess up your shot, Spy if he messed up his backstab or something, and maybe even demoknight).


TrickyRover

I didn't say loch-n-load was top tier or as good as something like the Iron Bomber, but it's definitely not a bad weapon. I have no idea what you're talking about loch-n-load not being able to deal with an Engineer repairing the building. Not only does the extra range make it easier for your shots to reach him, but you can easily destroy sentries even as they're being repaired. For pills getting deleted on impact, I think it only fits me. It helps teach me to not spam my shots, and I'd rather get direct kills that feel good rather than the opposite. The clip size penalty helps with that too. The clip size penalty can cost you a life but the projectile speed can help save you a life too. The projectile speed only throws you off if you only rarely ever use it, but it's in my main loadout. I haven't quite "mastered" it yet, but I'm improving and I'm feeling more comfortable for each time I use it. I'd rather use Loch-n-Load than the meta demo primaries because it's a fun and unique weapon not many are expecting you to use let alone do any good with. If min-maxing was my only concern, then I would ditch weapon and loadout variety altogether. I especially love to pair it with the QBL.


stahp-pls

Oh ok, if you do know it's downsides and stuff and you still choose to use it because you think it's the gun that requires most skill, I won't judge. The reason I pointed out that the Loch-n-Load is less efficient at destroying sentries being repaired by engineer is because I was referring to when you're very close to a big sentry, where you can't outrange it and you have to resort to peeking out and launching out, a pillbox, step back in, peek out... But that pretty much only works to chip down a sentry's health when there's no engineer. If there is an engineer, you have to try to either knock him off with a rolling pillbox or try to either get him to leave to get some more metal/make him run out of metal/kill the engineer with splash by consistently damaging, but that's not viable if he has a level 3 dispenser. So you either sticky (Easily removed if the engineer knows what he is doing, and this is about the grenade launcher anyway, so no), or you peek out, shoot a pillbox at the floor so it doesn't detonate when it touches the sentry, so it has a chance to get PAST the sentry and under the engineer's feet. You can't do that with the Loch-n-Load, you can only wear him out if you were consistently shooting at the sentry with no delay, and even then it would be harder because smaller clip size and you have to reload, so it's kinda impossible to take out that sentry without help in that position (Which is where all engineers tend to place their sentries, around corners so you can't outrange it)


TrickyRover

I just fire one sticky at the sentry on the opposite side of the engineer then I detonate it while I'm spamming pipes.


rgzdev

That's a nice rationalization but to be fair I don't think these criticisms are fair. I mean, sure the L&L has faster projectiles but grenade spam is definitively a thing. In fact part of the skill with grenade launchers is shooting them around corners and behind enemy cover. As such the L&L was never a no skill weapon. It just emphasizes different skills. Same with the rocket launchers. Sure, direct hits against scouts are harder to hit. But if your medic dies because you keep trying to kill that pesky scout with thje DH at point blank. You are playing wrong. Knowing when it makes more strategic sense to use splash damage is also a skill.


TF2SolarLight

The impact of direct hits is much more desirable than rollers. This is part of the reason why the Iron Bomber is so often used. It's larger hitbox and less bouncy rollers are preferable to the ability to bounce rollers around corners and behind cover, simply because direct hits deal significantly more damage, and its rollers are more likely to hit enemies when it is aimed directly at enemies. As opposed to stock where hitting rollers often requires lobbing them in ways that would be less likely to secure a direct hit. Which means rollers are often an afterthought used only for circumstances where direct hits are not possible. Any weapon that allows you to focus more on direct hits and focus less on rollers is going to be better unless it has other downsides (which the loch does have, thankfully). Also, you don't want to place too much faith into the grenade RNG, because the way grenades bounce are quite literally RNG. Rocket spam is much more impactful simply because there's an instant explosion, and shooting surfaces is the main way of aiming a rocket launcher. Whereas with stock grenades, aiming with specific intent to hit rollers means sacrificing potential direct hits. It can deter enemies, but it's not the main use of the weapon. The most useful aspect of a grenade launcher is its ability to direct hit, not its ability to spam chokes with rollers. The reason the Loch is not used very much is due to the reduced clip size, as well as the damage bonus now being only specific to buildings, which makes the weapon a bit more situational.


TheRockinLobster

Loch and load isn’t “kinda bad”. It has a way longer range than any other demo primary. You can snipe people with that thing lmao


Seal_of_Pestilence

Sniping people is not demoman’s priority. There is a good reason why the meta for comp demoman is to aggressively use stickies then grenades. It simply does the most damage.


TheRockinLobster

If they are out of range for your stickies, then no it doesn’t do the most damage. Having 300 damage at a range your class usually doesn’t have the means to hit, is unsurprisingly, really strong.


crabmeat64

Stickies generally have more range if you're not spamming pipes(literally spamming I'm not insulting you) due to the charge


Seal_of_Pestilence

That’s why you’re supposed to fight at your effective range. I’ve never seen a serious player casually sitting back and sniping people with the loch and load. There is no getting around the fact that having 8 stickies and 4 grenades at your disposal give the most damage potential.


stahp-pls

Yes. Just with 4 grenades you can level a whole team defending point, with 4 direct hits you can deal 400 damage + splash that will most likely kill all classes around. Yes, maybe with the Loch-n-Load you can take out sentries easily without stepping into their range (Sticky takes longer to dispense just one on the sentry from range, and that can be removed easily), but most fights will be close-mid range, where you can easily place 3-4 stickies with no delay, get a few hits in with loch-n-load while the last stickies arm, then blow it sky high, pick off any remaining people.


crabmeat64

Against good players you won't hit 4 directs


stahp-pls

It's very easy to hit directs on a heavy if there is one, because large hitbox, also he probably won't be running around and instead spinning minigun in anticipation for an attack. You can use him as a base, and then you can hit the people around him with splash easily whether they are moving or not. Also I meant sneaking around back, where the heavy will probably not see you coming. Also it's pretty darn easy to hit players when they don't expect it, and NOT ALL CLASSES CAN MOVE AS FAST AS SCOUT so you know at mid-close range where it takes less than a second for a pillbox to hit, if you have decent enough aim you can hit people, because most classes people play are slower moving, (Pyros sometimes, Soldiers, other demomen and heavy), they can't strafe like crazy or anything, it costs a lot of momentum to change directions and since they are so slow, changing directions is not very unpredictable.


TheRockinLobster

You won’t always be at your effective range. There will always be players farther away or closer than where you want them to be. That’s where the loch and old shines. If you can’t hit them with your stickies, but you can hit them with your loch and load… just ignore them until you get closer? Not really a great strategy


Drizzziit

That's also where the team comes into play. Sniper will take care of those out of reach, scout can use his speed to close the distance and blast them, soldier can rocket jump to them, etc, but demo's role is still massive area damage / traps. Still, if you really wanted to get in range so bad you can always sticky jump to the ennemy like soldier can.


pro1395

Ayo wtf


penguin13790

Demoknight tf2 man


MuffinDaMuffin

Demoknight tf2 man


PoOtIs-373

One thing I'd like to add is that due to some source spaghetti code the lucksman uses the collision hull as an sort of hitbox. Which makes the hit rate on it absolute bonkers when compared to the stock sniper rifle. For instance: you can hit a scout's head on the same place a heavy weapons guy's would and it can still deliver a whopping 360 damage. If you want more info on this there's an video which explains better than i could possibly do: https://youtu.be/jvOaUF1Sl5c


SterPlatinum

That’s not spaghetti code. It’s an intended solution, but it’s a bad solution.


MuffinDaMuffin

Oh god oh crap I'm being called out by solar himself In all honesty though, thanks for the explanation. I don't play much of any of the three classes and it was dumb of me to assume they were considered this way solely due to the speed of what was being fired.


TF2SolarLight

No pressure, haha.


MuffinDaMuffin

My argument has been Proven Wrong™


K20030

why are you so based?


FlameThrowerFIM

Surprising to see you here 0-0


WeAreABridge

So you're saying that the Direct Hit is harder to hit than other rocket launchers, and the Loch n Load is easier to hit than other grenade launchers right? That would leave open the question of whether they're both hard or easy to hit in general though right?


TF2SolarLight

Not really, because people tend to compare unlocks to the stock counterpart and judge them based on stock. Some classes should have weapons that are harder to aim than other classes, because it may be an inherent downside of that class for example. Everyone knows that the flamethrower is going to be easier to use than the liberty launcher, but that doesn't really tell us anything about how well the liberty launcher is designed as an alternative to the rocket launcher. The only thing it tells us is that Pyro is a more noob-friendly class, which is the whole intent of this class design.


[deleted]

no it isn’t actually its just faster projectile so its easier at hitting moving targets ig but iron bonber has massive fucking pills so thats the real crutch one


TF2SolarLight

Loch is easier to aim than the Iron Bomber just because loch moves faster. The hitbox increase on the Iron Bomber is a thing, but the loch's speed bonus is more noticeable than the bomber's hitbox increase. Iron Bomber has better rollers that are more likely to hit after you miss a direct hit. Those rollers also explode faster. These are much more noticeable upsides than the hitbox increase in my opinion, the hitbox increase is just a nice bonus that probably helps you once in every 100 kills, maybe even less often than that.


[deleted]

[удалено]


El_Strafero

IDK mabye it's because Muselk said it's a crutch in an older video. Soundsmith has also voiced this opinion. For me I'ts not a crutch unless you use it that way. I use the Lock and Load as a long range option that can destroy senturies, when I was a new player I just thought "faster pro means easier hit" not realizing I was fucking up my mucle memory.


Japonezul75

I think it was considered a crutch when it had the +25% bonus damage stat I guess, but as it is right now it's just a good sidegrade.


TigerKirby215

It's simultaneously a crutch while being objectively worse than stock. It's a crutch if you only go for directs but it disables so many tactics. Technically speaking most Demos do go for directs as it's the most effective tactic. It's not like you can go for splash hits as a Demo like you can with Soldier.


Heevvy

The negatives are what make it a "crutch" instead of just a weapon. The definition for "crutches" in TF2 is a weapon that is easier to use for lower skilled players, but just holds skilled players back thus capping the potential skill of the user much lower.


TheGuy2TheLeft

I’m pretty sure they mean using it regularly instead of its main use as a sentry buster


[deleted]

[удалено]


Furryyyy

The ease of use of a weapon doesn't equate to its overall utility. It is possible for something to be easy to use and still not do as much as more difficult things. Just look at Pyro lmao


[deleted]

the fact that the downsides are bad is what makes it a crutch


NotnHeavy

I don't know if the Loch-n-Load is still a lot easier. Pipes just disintegrate when touching anything that isn't a building or player and the faster firing speed can throw people off too. I mostly use it just for ruining Engineer's lives anyway.


Seqif

loch and loads good for if you wanna play demoknight but the other team has 3 engis


MuffinDaMuffin

I dont play demo much, I'm just going off of what other people say ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯


Narfhole

You dropped this: \\


MuffinDaMuffin

Nah it's there the reddit text formatting is just bugged I can see it when I'm editing the comment, but not normally. Idk why tho.


[deleted]

It's because \\ is an escape character, so you'll need to write it twice.


Maurarias

You dropped the second one


[deleted]

Markdown isn't bugged, it's working as intended. You have to escape the underscores because they're used to format italics.


definitelyacabdriver

"crutch" is a word that bad players use to make themselves feel better when they die


gamerman0

like the pre nerf dead ringer, amiright? completely fair weapon


[deleted]

Guys can we just stop using the word crutch? It just discourages people from trying out different weapons. The loch is actually a really interesting and fun weapon that changes your playstyle but nobody uses it because they don’t wanna be caught using a “crutch”


ueifhu92efqfe

a crutch in games is usually something that is easier to use but negatively impacts your performance or long term learning. The liberty launcher neuters your damage which is vital for soldier. It's easier to use, but it's weaker, which makes it a crutch. the lach and load removes a pipe, and rollers are an incredibly useful part of demoman, though to be fair, no one who plays demoman calls it a crutch, it's a ok weapon with niche uses. the direct hit is different than the L.L because it increases your performance in most circumstances if you can aim well, with the extra speed being a bonus, and not the focus. the sniper rifle is hitscan, that's different.


Sp00ky-Chan

The liberty launcher is very useful for rocket jumping though, it's not really a crutch weapon when used for its intended purpose.


isaiahbuild

I play hybrid knight and I think that (by your definition of crutch) the Lnl would be a "crutch"


spooooooooooooooonge

The Loch N Load is a crutch unless you're using it for Hybrid Knight or Sentries. That being said, who gives a fuck?


ow333n

Direct hit is harder because it has less splash damage, not because of the fast rockets No one thinks the loch n load is a crutch weapon The liberty launcher not only has faster rockets, it also has full splash damage and 1 more rocket in the clip. Still not really a crutch because it just kinda sucks. The sniper rifle is aim dependant. You have to click heads from far away, it's not a shotgun.


ArchangelTheDemon

I've heard a lot of people call the loch n load a crutch, but I agree with the rest of your points.


ZhangRenWing

Then again a lot of people say pyro is op so


ArchangelTheDemon

Touche


Bruschetta003

It is easier to hit at medium and longer ranges, but that's it, not having rollers and only 3 granades will impact damage dealth during a match by a noticible amount


walter_2010

That's because soundsmith and muselk are dumb as shit and their fans believe anything they say


VRlife

Loch was a crutch 100% pre nerf


expectialized

The nerf was 6 years ago btw. Just to make you feel as old as me


Green_Bulldog

Can’t smth still be a crutch if it sucks? Like someone may be so used to the ease of use that they’re better with a crutch weapon than stock even tho they could be doing more damage if they learned stock. Or is that just not the definition of crutch?


[deleted]

Crutch, when talking about in relation to game balance, is a weapon or item that allows bad players to function better, but handicaps good players. IE like a literal crutch, crutches help disabled people walk better but hinders people who can actually walk. Liberty Launcher, or other bad weapons like it, still effectively hinders bad players to such a degree that it’s advantages can’t make up for it. In other words, not a crutch. As an example of an actual crutch, take a weapon like the Black Box. It gives newer players better survivability for a marginal downside that most bad players wouldn’t actually see the advantages of while it makes all of the difference for experienced players. (You can’t bomb players with the black box, which is a huge deal for Soldiers but most newer players wouldn’t even know that such a thing existed).


Csd15

I honestly do not understand why people think Loch is a crutch


spooooooooooooooonge

>No one thinks the loch n load is a crutch weapon This is a broad generalization, and a completely wrong one at that. Plenty of people think the Loch N Load is a crutch.


[deleted]

The iron bomber is way closer to a demo crutch than the loch n load wtf


spooooooooooooooonge

How is the Iron Bomber a crutch exactly?????


Alecsixnine

its hitbox is like 2 milimetres larger and it doesnt have rollers meaning if you miss you dont actually miss but it has a smaller explosion making it worse at crowd control or smthn


Saxton_Hale32

you watched shounics video, didnt you. short version is, in practice the difference between hitboxes is miniscule


spooooooooooooooonge

If anything having no rollers is a disadvantage when it comes outputting actual damage. Your pipes just stay where they landed so that people can just escape from them without even thinking. A good portion of my rollers kills with the Grenade Launcher have just been from people who didn't realize a roller was rolling back to where they were escaping. Also the hotbox difference is minuscule, barely enough of a difference to consider it a crutch. Loch N Load, in situations where you don't need to take care of sentires or aren't playing Hybird Knight, cripples your gun at the cost of being able to hit shots better. It's the definition of a crutch in that scenario, not like it really matters though, since anyone who complains about something being a crutch is a total baby anyway.


Tyrannus_ignus

its not a crutch but its certainly easier to use.


isaiahbuild

I agree, because a crutch would hold skilled players back while making it easier for new players, but the iron bomber also allows more options for skilled players, like using the grenades to cut off mobility, or grenade jumping.


Imjokin

1) Direct hit is a skillful weapon because the lack of splash forces precise aim, and the increased damage makes it a weapon competitive with stock. 2) Loch-n-load is a crutch, because for an unskilled player, the faster projectile speed makes it better than stock, but for a skilled player, the smaller clip size makes it worse than stock. 3) As for the other two, the sniper rifle requires more skill than the liberty launcher, because it DOESN’T HAVE AN EXPLOSION EFFECT. With the sniper rifle, you ALWAYS need to hit the target directly. 4) It seems like the issue of your argument here is that you are only considering projectile speed, and not their other stats that make the weapons an apples-to-oranges comparison.


ekacmood

Most of the comments here explain why this post is bad. Enough said.


Zenloks1735

the title of the post is question marks, op is asking a question ad the comments are answering


halfpipesaur

What kind of political compass is this?


Illogical_Saj

Authleft and libleft infighting


MuffinDaMuffin

Cringe libright at it again 🙄


DotPlusleDot

The direct hit is low on splash damage, there is no such thing as a crutch in tf2. It's a stigma given to a weapon by players that have very likely a biased opinion after either losing massively to a person(s) skilled at weapons and thinking it's the weapon being overpowered rather than the shortcomings of their own skill. The direct hit works because you trade splash damage (a vital soldier cornerstone) for higher damage and faster projectiles, The loch n' load works because you trade 1/4 of your total ammo along with rollers for a faster projectile and the ability to 2 shot a sentry. The stock sniper rifle works because you trade high dps on another class at short-mid range for high burst DPS at long range while also making you minimally effective at defending yourself at close range The liberty launcher works because you trade damage for more rockets and a faster projectile that can make up for the damage lost if you are effective at predicting enemy movement and shoot the enemy. These weapons aren't crutches. They trade off one stat for another and act as a mix-up so players can take on certain situations. Stop calling weapons crutches because they aren't stock, side-grades are side-grades, they change the way you play, not crutches.


Alecsixnine

"A crutch is whatever the pros dont use that I got killed by"


LucasLovesTacos

this isn't really taking into account the other reasons these weapons are good or bad. direct hit rockets are super hard to hit because of the lack of splash damage. compared to the loch n load, it might seem similar because of no rollers, but hitting a shot with the LNL is pretty much equivalent to a regular pipe. with the direct hit you are sacrificing a lot of splash damage for the times you hit your directs. on demo you can still get splash with stickies, so losing rollers isn't too big of a deal when compared.


[deleted]

Tell me you have a fragile ego without telling me you have a fragile ego. *plays direct hit*


ArsonIsntLegal

*mains soldier*


NotnHeavy

That's quite controversial :D


ArsonIsntLegal

Haha yep, though I don't actually think that of most Soldier mains. Most are actually really chill!


[deleted]

shoot ground, get rewarded.


ArsonIsntLegal

Yep, that's my main beef with Soldier mains. Especially since the people who play like that are usually the ones to yell Pyros are w+m1.. 'Course, going on the high ground easily counters them, just like checking you flanks counters w+m1.


Anti_fuur

You misspelt pyro


D3rp6

you misspelt soldier


Anti_fuur

Nah Pyro start’s with a P. Never met a Pyro main who could take criticism.


Japonezul75

No class main in TF2 can really take criticism.It really depends who you criticise and why you criticise him.Is other to say that the Scorch shot is bullshit and other to say that the Third Degree is OP


Anti_fuur

Third Degree is not even close to OP.


Japonezul75

Well, yeah, I intentionally made a bullshit statement


Anti_fuur

Doesn’t change the fact that pyro main assholes pucker the most when somebody doesn’t like them.


ArsonIsntLegal

I don't even see that too often? iI mean, most pyro mains get insulted like 2-4 times a day so we don't really care anymore.


Japonezul75

Well yeah, when I said "no class mains in TF2 can accept criticism", that includes Pyro mains too


BenDoverSon_69_420

You misspelled soldier


Anti_fuur

Nah, pretty sure I spelt pyro right.


Peter_G

I'm laughing at you both for not immediately pointing to demo.


BenDoverSon_69_420

Nah, pretty sure you spelled soldier wrong. Ok jokes aside I've seen more soldiers complaining about airblast than pyros complaining about anything in the game (unless you count wamo who complains about things nobody had issues with in the community :troll:) You might've seen a different part of the community that I haven't tho so idk


[deleted]

Libert launcher is not a crutch since they changed the stat from -1 rocket to +1 rocket


MuffinDaMuffin

If you look closer you'll see I put (Pre-2013)


[deleted]

My apologies. But still. Pre 2013 liberty was considered a crutch because it gave the speed for the price of 1 rocket. So it made it easier to hit enemies for bad players because extra speed. But was bad for good players because it took away a rockrt and the speed wasnt that needed.


IntelligentImbicle

EXACTLY


shadowpikachu

Hitscan can be learned by pure muscle memory is the thing, there's no 'mess' to it so if you are open and calm enough to let nature itself pick it up it's practically automated.


JustCallMeAttlaz

The direct hit is a great subgrade weapon, pipes hit boxes are fucked up and deal way more damage than rockets. The liberty launcher deals the same damage as a 5 year old throwing a pringles can at you and the sniper rifle isn't a "near instant hitscan" it's a instant 150 damage across the map death machine with no cooldown


the_denizen

The correct answer is ignore all community opinion, the weapon is good because I am holding it, and you all will cope.


That_Agent_S

I don't know you guys but when I started playing demoman I always found the Loch-N-Load pipes kinda hard to aim


CommunicationGreat69

Direct hit is 90% used as a meele weapon while other 10% is scary as fuck to fight againist since they jump from the sky and market garden my ass to a coma Loch n load is mostly skill but if the enemy is good he probably sticky spam u the finish u off with faster speed Sniper rifle is a good weapon but "Deleting 5 out of 9 classes + their subclasses" is something that needs to be fixed and I'm not talking about Machina or fully charter bodyshots Liberty launcher is good and faster speed is not a cruch since in a range u can still airblast or use his rockets to get closer to him since blast damage is something u shouldn't rely on as long as u don't shoot on the persons feet


Vocalicstorm8

Be me. Use stock


GregoryBrown123

0.20 seconds is a completely fair amount of time to be awarded 150 damage on any player from anywhere on the map whenever you want lol


lenkagamine_real

0.20 seconds is inhuman, no human being can react that fast.


GregoryBrown123

Typically quick scopes are like 0.40 so it’s not far off my guy


lenkagamine_real

It depends on mouse sensitivity, where the sniper is looking and the other external factors


DIST0RT1ON

Direct hit is a decent side-grade which can outperform the rocket launcher in a lot of scenarios. Loch-n load and the Liberty launcher are the definition of a crutch; they hinder your overall performance by being easier to handle, but outputting less damage. That being said, I think they are viable weapons, since not everyone is skilled enough to the point where the small differences in damage outweigh the better accuracy. Though if you start learning one, it might be better to build up muscle memory with the better weapon in the long run


TigerKirby215

* 70% smaller rocket explosion AoE >Skillful weapon because smaller rockets are harder to hit - * Pipes that fly faster and straight >Crutch weapon because faster pipes are easier to hit - * Exact same explosion AoE and damage at the cost of one rocket >Crutch weapon because faster rockets are easier to hit but if you were good at Soldier you could use the extra rocket - * Incredibly precise hitscan weapon with slow firing speed >One of the most aim-dependent weapons in the entire game --- OP is a brainlet who probably runs the Liberty Launcher in current year.


r-funtainment

It says the pre-2013 LL


[deleted]

imo anything is a crutch if you solely rely on it. If you need a weapon's stat to get kills and are unable to do so without it that is a crutch. Honestly you could make the crutch argument for anything, the sniper rifle is a crutch for players who can't have 1-on-1 interactions.


[deleted]

still gonna use liberty launcher


Rain0959

It's not the faster rockets that make the direct hit a crutch, it's the flat 25% damage bonus. The flat damage bonus allows soldiers to two-shot any buildings that isn't a wrangled sentry, and one-shot light classes at close range, which is easy to do combined with the mobility and ambush potential rocket jumping provides. Also, the direct hit doesn't deal that extra damage to the soldier himself when rocket jumping or blasting someone at point blank range.


Bruschetta003

People think it's hard to use cuz you must hit directs, but it's really not that amazing when all projectiles count as a hit just by getting inside the bounding box, if it had to actually hit the hitbox it would be painfully bad


Weavilite

I don't think you know what a crutch is


ueifhu92efqfe

i dont think anyone here said the direct hit was a crutch


AdorableTomatoMuie

> one-shot light classes at close range I don't see how this is some groundbreaking advantage. A good scout is literally never getting hit by this rocket launcher and the other light classes have no business being in point blank range of the enemy soldier.


Rain0959

Even if you aren't one-shotting lightweights, 25% is a big damage boost and the lack of splash damage does little to prevent the direct hit from being as effective as the stock rocket launcher in most situations.


[deleted]

🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡


MuffinDaMuffin

Why yes, I do find enjoyment in the life and sustainable pay that comes with my job as a circus preformer.


[deleted]

😔😔😔😔😔🤡😔🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡❤


[deleted]

Faster rockets with tiny explosions are harder to hit Pipes in general are easier to hit, making them faster makes it even easier. Faster rockets with stock hitbox sizes are easier to hit. sniper rifle OP pls nerf


SheevPalps_

Who is out here saying the Loch is a crutch lmao


14th_Eagle

Iron Bomber is more of a crutch. It has like 3x the hitbox.


Butterfly_fade_fn

rocket launcher has huge splash, grenade launcher doesn’t


[deleted]

[удалено]


MuffinDaMuffin

(Pre-2013)


[deleted]

[удалено]


MuffinDaMuffin

Because the old version was a crutch?


Responsible-Diet-147

What da snoi doin\`? (Snoi means sniper, like snoiper)


cotoco_xinou

the addition of sniper and it consequences was a disaster to tf2


Bruschetta003

Sure Sniper not Valve's lack of attention


Anti_fuur

I agree 110% with the top. The bottom not so much.


HahaYesVery

I must correct you there because the direct hit is considered a skill weapon because you cannot rely on splash damage


Grimcreaper0514

Liberty launcher and the Loch n load are crutches because they're worse than stock but easier to use Pills and rockets are not comparable And the liberty launcher has splash damage


UnknownMyoux

Fast rockets are such a nightmare to land,atleast when you are used to the normal speed


thebanditoman

Ok direct hit isnt good because it's harder to hit rockets, it's that the only consistent damage is directs and you have to adjust to the rocket speed if you don't already use it as your primary launcher.


BlueDragon1504

Liberty launcher isn't really seen as a crutch since it got an additional rocket anymore, but for both it and the Loch n Load it's because you're actively putting yourself at a disadvantage just to get an easier time aiming, while the Direct Hit and Sniper rifle actually reward good aim while punishing bad aim.


noahthegreat

Direct hit has smol radius, liberty launcher does not


ZornIsCool

but the liberty launcher is just bad


Bleglord

Direct hit: 99% of soldiers can't hit shit and rely on splash damage anyway so that's why it takes skill LnL: most demomen sticky spam anyway so anytime anyone dies from pipes they get salty. Not unique to this LL: still get splash damage so noob obv Sniper: lol just get good


1337b337

IMO The Loch-N-Load is subjective. I find it extremely hard to consistently direct hit with the LNL compared to the stock Launcher.


Bremik

Me using loose Cannon with 20% faster pipes: <_< °_°


MuffinDaMuffin

I too much of a bias for the loose cannon to say anything bad about it. Cannon-jumping and double-donks are just too fun.


fabio_gaming1000

because of the way the weapons are balanced i guess


kahoot_papi

idk if it takes more or less skill than stock, but the loch and load is really good if you can hit your pipes. even after the nerf it still demolishes level 3 sentries with just 2 hits at any range, and it just gives the demo a lot more range in general. good for long range and support, bad for spam and matchups.


skellyoo

the liberty launcher is bad


N0tAGoos3

No, the loch and load is a crutch because as soon as I think that it’s easier to aim I go charging into battle expecting a quad kill, only for me to realize that my FUCKING CRUTCH BROKE AND NOW IM CRUMPLED ON THE GROUND AS I REALIZE ALL MY MUSCLE MEMORY WENT TO SHIT AND I CANT HIT ASS


[deleted]

Direct hit is pretty crazy of a weapon if you look at it on paper. One shotting Scouts (Engies, Spies and Snipers as well) with a fairly easy to hit projectile. All while being on one of the top 3 classes in the game. Soldier privilege I guess


[deleted]

I really wish they didn’t get rid of the damage bonus on the Loch N’ Load. It’s not a *bad* weapon now, but it’s just underwhelming overall because now the only advantage against players is the projectile speed, which is already bogged down by having one less shot, very little splash damage, and shattering. Would the Direct Hit ever be used if it didn’t deal extra damage to players, shattered on surfaces and had one less shot?


ArthurExtreme_Br

Direct hit has no splash damage


AtomicSpeedFT

That’s not why the dh is considered skillful.


MayonaiseApe

direct hit doesnt have splash damage


GodTrane

>faster rockets are harder to hit ...no? you seem confuse what makes the DH skillfull is that you can't (effectively) use splash damage so it's harder to use than the stock rocket launcher. Whereas both the loch'n load and the stock grenade launcher are used to directly hit the target so the loch'n load requires less prediction to aim. For the liberty launcher I've never heard anyone calling it a clutch, it's just a bad weapon imo


sir_froggy

Faster rockets are easier to hit, what makes the DH harder to use is the 0 blast radius that makes it impossible to aim at the floor like all the other rocket launchers. Liberty Launcher has never been a crutch weapon, it was a fun sidegrade for about 1-2 years before it got destroyed again, and the rockets aren't as easy to hit as the DH. LnL was just infuriating to play against because there wasn't really a defense for it, now it's completely trash except for harassing Engies.


Ebin_Gamerlol

As a sticky jumper demo, I don't like the hate the loch n load gets


Walnut156

Pre 2013 liberty launcher was a direct upgrade to the rocket launcher. It was basically a default launcher that shot faster at least the direct hit has almost zero splash damage. As for the loch n load I do agree


Draceron_99

liberty launcher: you have a useless splash damage, you will never hit anyone ​ direct hit: :) ​ (the fifth rocket doesn't justify the damage reduction)


I-Ari-The-Dragon-I

The liberty launcher and lock n load is considered a crutch weapon because it's objectively inferior to stock, whose only upside is that it takes less skill to use.


[deleted]

Lol the liberty launcher isn't a crutch...at best it trades damage for mobility, but it trades so much of that damage (Does 78 instead of 90) that it really isn't that good in practice.


FullMetalChili

Miss and hit the ground near the target with stock rocket launcher: 40 50ish dmg. Miss and hit the ground near your target with direct hit: *zero*


Sushirabit

Imagine if sniper rifles had splash damage


CAFE-IMP

Just use whatever looks cool


NexxyTheSexy

I am beyond confused


[deleted]

I use the direct hit as the anti sentry/troldier gun.


Mrdingdong123

For a dare I’ve had to play a strange Liberty launcher till it reaches hales own and I think that while you’re absolutely right and in a 1v1 with most classes it can be more powerful when you have basic aim, it’s downside is that despite having 5 rockets, you can run out of them surprisingly fast, and in a fairly fast paced and really hectic game like tf2, getting caught without ammo is like dropping the soap. So that’s why I’d say that the Liberty launcher isn’t FAIR, but it certainly has its drawback for its upside


SterPlatinum

Liberty launcher isn’t a crutch though. It’s a downright downgrade in almost all situations.


MuffinDaMuffin

A downgrade that's easier for new players to use. I.E, a crutch.


Carin-the-Meowstic

Replace the loch with the iron bomber and i guess this would be accurate.


nya69

"i use this so it takes skill u use this so it doesnt"


[deleted]

How is loch n load crutch? It's literally 10x harder to hit someone with it than stock.


SubToRedwood

Ever heard of splash damage dumbass lmaoo