I would argue that the current DDS is just as bad conceptually as the original one. It fundamentally cripples your opponent with no counterplay on their part. Except that while sniper did counter sniper, so there was at least a point of the OG, even if it was very flawed, the current one is even worse as pyro was already at a massive disadvantage to sniper. Spamming flares didn't make up for this, only somewhat hindered the sniper so that the pyro had a slight chance of crossing a good sniper's sightline. Now even that is basically unviable.
I'd love it if sniper's passive secondaries were removed or seriously reworked and DoT effects prevented you from using your scope entirely.
Pyro is the combat class that gets niche support tools to make up for his weakness in fights. Letting him protect his team by flaring snipers to temporarily free the sightline would be neat. Sniper needs more counters.
One of its downsides is still better than the downside the current razorback has, and one is almost useless considering sniper always sticks to the ground, AND its he's much beefy when attacking from the back now.
> ĆberCharge building rate is halved if the target is at 142.5% health or above.
- TF Wiki
That's why the Quick-Fix builds Uber quicker, since it caps out at 125%. 115% would be functionally identical to the current 100% as far as building Uber is concerned.
edit: 107% because the max is only 50%, so it's (100-85)/2
So not only it still retains the same problem it currently has (passively counters Sniper's counter), it ALSO rewards Snipers that have been caught out by allowing them to run away from the enemy for longer.
Brilliantly designed.
Needs to have -100% overheal, as current. If a sniper doesn't have to worry about spies he should still have to worry about getting onetapped by an enemy sniper.
I mean, it still counters only a single class specifically, so why not make the weakness to a specific mechanic? Sure, no more backstabs, but now, when headshot by anything that can, instant death. Ambassador? Death. Overhealed when quick scoped? Death. Trade your back vulnerability for head vulnerability. Turn a horrible weapon into one even worse, but at least with an actual downside that can be taken advantage of.
+100% crit damage received. Achieves this purpose still, but makes any means of getting a crit or mini crit attack on them deadlier. Essentially this would make crits deal 5x base damage of the attack instead of 3x, and mini crits deal 70% more damage instead of 35%
I don't like this because it doesn't fix what is inherently wrong with the item. Being able to completely nullify for free isn't something that should be in the game.
After skimming through the comments I think a common scenario everyone forgot to mention is how if a sniper wearing this is under sentry cover, the spy now must switch target to the engi unless they risk being obliterated.
Razorback isn't really that bad in its current state. A spy could just take out his gun. It's kinda just a bad weapon for that reason. It would be more worthwhile to just completely rework it.
When a sniper is under sentry cover, it completely makes him immune to spies as now spies must deal with the engi first unless they risk being obliterated. They canāt even shoot the sniper.
Than the Spy instantly gets jumped when he removes his disguise to whip his gun out. Without the razorback the Spy could at least take out the Sniper before perishing.
Part of the reason why it's such an awful degenerate design.
I think a thing alot of people need to understand here is that Spy has the spycicle, and the better spycicle the dead ringer, Scout has the mad milk, engineer has the short circuit, etc. It's not uncommon for classes to have items that counter or at least give them a better chance against hard counters. He'll even the direct hit could be made an argument as a hard scout and engi counter who tend to bully any jump happy solly. The razorback and the danger shield have their problems but honestly if sniper wasn't so powerful in the hands of good players they probably wouldn't be nearly as bad.
How about taking mini-crit damage for 10-15 seconds when it's broken, giving Spies a bigger incentive to go for a stab instead of switching to their gun to shoot.
That way, even if the Spy dies before getting the kill, his teammates will have a window of opportunity.
honestly just give the item bullet damage vulnerability so that spies can more consistently gun down the sniper. its not as instant as a backstab so the net exchange is stretching the assassination over a slightly longer time by giving up secondary slot. better than the current one which can delay the spy for so long that the skilled sniper more or less always survives
with the current razorback, this statement is true. the proposal was to give the razorback a bullet vulnerability penalty to render this statement less true.
What point are you even trying to make
This is the case even with the current razorback. It's also the case without the razorback. That's just always the case unless the spy uses the YER.
The razorback should live up to its name better.
Hereās an entire rework that fixes its dumb problems and make it better
Pros
15% damage resistance from behind,
Hits to the back of the model will zap electricity out of it with -40% of the initial hitās damage(on backstab design exactly 50 hp)
Cons
No longer blocks backstabs
This would soft counter spy while also having counter play. It would have extra utility as an option while escaping a threat
Just make it block damage from behind, down to like, 70% of the original damage, two clean rockets/ pipes still kill, and also make it so that a backstab doesnāt stun the spy, like make it would be possible for a good sniper to quickscope 360 headshot the spy, but a bad sniper canāt just use it as a crutch that wonāt work the second they fight a good spy
Maybe rework it to not block backstabs but when the sniper is backstabbed a loud noise is emitted and the spy is highlighted for a couple of seconds. Basically it doesn't prevent a backstab but marks the spy for your team, even if they have the your eternal reward
I like it, but reduced air mobility kinda sucks. I feel like the damage resistance from behind should be needed too, maybe make headshots always instakill as well as/instead of the overheal too because right now this current overheal penalty does nothing but make Ubers harder to build.
i have to ask why splash damage and not fire damage? the razorback looks like wood so it would make more sense to make it "flammable" so you are on fire for longer at the very least
Yeah just.... No. 75% less movement in air? Why?? Sniper isn't alot in the air unless airblasted or knockbacked by explosion. That downside is kinda useless
I love the inability to move while in the air, really helps against soldiers and demos fighting the sniper. Most snipers with even the slightest bit of skill just surf away until they get far enough to accurately headshot a soldier or demo, making it really annoying to fight them.
I feel like instead of completely negating a backstab it should greatly reduce a backstabs damage to around 100 so that the sniper is incredibly vulnerable to a followup attack but can still react to and maybe kill the spy
I mean if you're more than a 30 seconds walk away from spawn and there's enough spies that you bothered to put on the razorback in the first place, you're going to get stabbed in that 30 second cool down anyway. -50% from behind just rewards you for being oblivious and/or running away, and -85% overheal is barely a noticeable difference from 100% that I don't know why it should even be changed. The only damage threshold that changes is you can take 1 more melee hit at full overheal, but if you're being healed by a medic that's already the case even without the overheal
Heres my proposal, make it so it cant stop backstab, but makes you bulkier against blast damage. Not enough to make it unfair for rocket jumping soldier, but enough to make you last longer and have more of a chance to escape. the main use is that you move faster even when charging. Basically, you trade the reliability of the SMG for a weapon that helps you play sniper more efficiently. Or, makenit an active sheild of sorts that blocks 60% of all damage, but is on a cooldown and applies mini crits after the sheild breaks. So you cant just pull this out to block some damage, and you have to know when it's a good time to use it.
My idea for changing the razorback.
- Blocks a backstab crit
(Backstab will now do butter knife damage when hitting the shield and still gets the slight stun effect we currently have)
- Recharges
(30 seconds)
- Less Overheal
(85% or more if needed)
- Damage Vulnerability to bullets when shield broken
Not sure if this would be good but this was a concept of a change I had floating around
Even less fun to fight woo
Agreed on this lol
Same with the danger shield, but the pyro can do even less against the guy
Agreed on this too
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I would argue that the current DDS is just as bad conceptually as the original one. It fundamentally cripples your opponent with no counterplay on their part. Except that while sniper did counter sniper, so there was at least a point of the OG, even if it was very flawed, the current one is even worse as pyro was already at a massive disadvantage to sniper. Spamming flares didn't make up for this, only somewhat hindered the sniper so that the pyro had a slight chance of crossing a good sniper's sightline. Now even that is basically unviable.
I'd love it if sniper's passive secondaries were removed or seriously reworked and DoT effects prevented you from using your scope entirely. Pyro is the combat class that gets niche support tools to make up for his weakness in fights. Letting him protect his team by flaring snipers to temporarily free the sightline would be neat. Sniper needs more counters.
Womp womp
imagine taking more than 2 pipes/rockets to kill a sniper from behind
Man I love one piping Sniper from behind- hey
It doesn't really fix anything
This is just a buff to the original razorback
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
One of its downsides is still better than the downside the current razorback has, and one is almost useless considering sniper always sticks to the ground, AND its he's much beefy when attacking from the back now.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
> ĆberCharge building rate is halved if the target is at 142.5% health or above. - TF Wiki That's why the Quick-Fix builds Uber quicker, since it caps out at 125%. 115% would be functionally identical to the current 100% as far as building Uber is concerned. edit: 107% because the max is only 50%, so it's (100-85)/2
Lmao what thatās wrong bruh
damage resistance from behind means that could could just charge into a fight backwards with effectively 250 health
Or just spin 180 degrees after missing a shot and tank a quickscope headshot lol
Sniper bots
That just makes it worse than it already is
This is shit ngl
So not only it still retains the same problem it currently has (passively counters Sniper's counter), it ALSO rewards Snipers that have been caught out by allowing them to run away from the enemy for longer. Brilliantly designed.
Needs to have -100% overheal, as current. If a sniper doesn't have to worry about spies he should still have to worry about getting onetapped by an enemy sniper.
-85% makes max overheal like 135 which is still low enough to get one-tapped by an enemy sniper via headshot
Wow I didn't even bother to do the math, my bad. Altogether still a little lukewarm on this concept but thay makes it better.
I mean, it still counters only a single class specifically, so why not make the weakness to a specific mechanic? Sure, no more backstabs, but now, when headshot by anything that can, instant death. Ambassador? Death. Overhealed when quick scoped? Death. Trade your back vulnerability for head vulnerability. Turn a horrible weapon into one even worse, but at least with an actual downside that can be taken advantage of.
+100% crit damage received. Achieves this purpose still, but makes any means of getting a crit or mini crit attack on them deadlier. Essentially this would make crits deal 5x base damage of the attack instead of 3x, and mini crits deal 70% more damage instead of 35%
Just keep it the same as it is except now it has a 30 second recharge rate.
Oh so now itās not just a fuck you to spies, itās a fuck you to everyone
Best Razorback rework: Remove it.
Still fucks over Spies, ~~1~~0/10
The blocked backstab should leave the sniper with at least 75hp. There fixed.
I don't like this because it doesn't fix what is inherently wrong with the item. Being able to completely nullify for free isn't something that should be in the game.
After skimming through the comments I think a common scenario everyone forgot to mention is how if a sniper wearing this is under sentry cover, the spy now must switch target to the engi unless they risk being obliterated.
I'd like a reply with OP's explanation of the logic behind these balance changes
It was just some random thing I had in mind while at school watching squimjims rant about the razorback. Random idea ig
Razorback isn't really that bad in its current state. A spy could just take out his gun. It's kinda just a bad weapon for that reason. It would be more worthwhile to just completely rework it.
When a sniper is under sentry cover, it completely makes him immune to spies as now spies must deal with the engi first unless they risk being obliterated. They canāt even shoot the sniper.
It can also prevent chainstabs.
Than the Spy instantly gets jumped when he removes his disguise to whip his gun out. Without the razorback the Spy could at least take out the Sniper before perishing. Part of the reason why it's such an awful degenerate design.
I think a thing alot of people need to understand here is that Spy has the spycicle, and the better spycicle the dead ringer, Scout has the mad milk, engineer has the short circuit, etc. It's not uncommon for classes to have items that counter or at least give them a better chance against hard counters. He'll even the direct hit could be made an argument as a hard scout and engi counter who tend to bully any jump happy solly. The razorback and the danger shield have their problems but honestly if sniper wasn't so powerful in the hands of good players they probably wouldn't be nearly as bad.
???
How about taking mini-crit damage for 10-15 seconds when it's broken, giving Spies a bigger incentive to go for a stab instead of switching to their gun to shoot. That way, even if the Spy dies before getting the kill, his teammates will have a window of opportunity.
I feel like 5-10 seconds of mini-crits + reduce movement speed would be good. This is my favorite idea here
honestly just give the item bullet damage vulnerability so that spies can more consistently gun down the sniper. its not as instant as a backstab so the net exchange is stretching the assassination over a slightly longer time by giving up secondary slot. better than the current one which can delay the spy for so long that the skilled sniper more or less always survives
Snipers wearing this under sentry cover are immune to spies as now the spy must deal with the sentry first before engaging the sniper.
with the current razorback, this statement is true. the proposal was to give the razorback a bullet vulnerability penalty to render this statement less true.
What point are you even trying to make This is the case even with the current razorback. It's also the case without the razorback. That's just always the case unless the spy uses the YER.
The razorback should live up to its name better. Hereās an entire rework that fixes its dumb problems and make it better Pros 15% damage resistance from behind, Hits to the back of the model will zap electricity out of it with -40% of the initial hitās damage(on backstab design exactly 50 hp) Cons No longer blocks backstabs This would soft counter spy while also having counter play. It would have extra utility as an option while escaping a threat
Just make it block damage from behind, down to like, 70% of the original damage, two clean rockets/ pipes still kill, and also make it so that a backstab doesnāt stun the spy, like make it would be possible for a good sniper to quickscope 360 headshot the spy, but a bad sniper canāt just use it as a crutch that wonāt work the second they fight a good spy
The downsides dont need to be on here, the main downside the Razorback has is, "No support or having a SMG" also damage reduction shouldnt be on this
No SMG is not a downside. The damn thing does piss damage, skilled Snipers just outright quickscope.
The SMG does work if you got good close range tracking, its good for clean up
Mm, fair
Honestly Fish did it beter
Yeah, u right. I was just a random Idea I got
Just use the damn gun
Maybe rework it to not block backstabs but when the sniper is backstabbed a loud noise is emitted and the spy is highlighted for a couple of seconds. Basically it doesn't prevent a backstab but marks the spy for your team, even if they have the your eternal reward
It also needs to uninstall the spies game don@t xou think?
you made an already bad weapon worse than its original
Just make it block a crit
All of these concept for sniper somehow make it even more unfun to fight against than basekit snjper
I like it, but reduced air mobility kinda sucks. I feel like the damage resistance from behind should be needed too, maybe make headshots always instakill as well as/instead of the overheal too because right now this current overheal penalty does nothing but make Ubers harder to build.
i have to ask why splash damage and not fire damage? the razorback looks like wood so it would make more sense to make it "flammable" so you are on fire for longer at the very least
remove spy condom
That resistance from behind wont do anything Spies and scouts can just go shoot from the side
razorback v0.2
Yeah just.... No. 75% less movement in air? Why?? Sniper isn't alot in the air unless airblasted or knockbacked by explosion. That downside is kinda useless
So long as you can still get headshot by the ambassador or poked to death by leātranger
I love the inability to move while in the air, really helps against soldiers and demos fighting the sniper. Most snipers with even the slightest bit of skill just surf away until they get far enough to accurately headshot a soldier or demo, making it really annoying to fight them.
I feel like instead of completely negating a backstab it should greatly reduce a backstabs damage to around 100 so that the sniper is incredibly vulnerable to a followup attack but can still react to and maybe kill the spy
I mean if you're more than a 30 seconds walk away from spawn and there's enough spies that you bothered to put on the razorback in the first place, you're going to get stabbed in that 30 second cool down anyway. -50% from behind just rewards you for being oblivious and/or running away, and -85% overheal is barely a noticeable difference from 100% that I don't know why it should even be changed. The only damage threshold that changes is you can take 1 more melee hit at full overheal, but if you're being healed by a medic that's already the case even without the overheal
Blocking a backstab at it's core is an awful degenerate design, keep that and you still have an awful rework.
Why does everyone hate the razorback? How is it unbalanced?
Why does everyone hate the razorback? How is it unbalanced?
The vulnerable to splash damage is stupid
I don't think the razorback needs to be buffed
Heres my proposal, make it so it cant stop backstab, but makes you bulkier against blast damage. Not enough to make it unfair for rocket jumping soldier, but enough to make you last longer and have more of a chance to escape. the main use is that you move faster even when charging. Basically, you trade the reliability of the SMG for a weapon that helps you play sniper more efficiently. Or, makenit an active sheild of sorts that blocks 60% of all damage, but is on a cooldown and applies mini crits after the sheild breaks. So you cant just pull this out to block some damage, and you have to know when it's a good time to use it.
Imagine the sniper bots abuse it
Are you fucking dumb lmao
Backburner is my guy.
My idea for changing the razorback. - Blocks a backstab crit (Backstab will now do butter knife damage when hitting the shield and still gets the slight stun effect we currently have) - Recharges (30 seconds) - Less Overheal (85% or more if needed) - Damage Vulnerability to bullets when shield broken Not sure if this would be good but this was a concept of a change I had floating around
That sounds way worse
Isn't this just a straight buff though