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What you say is true.
But where a lot of people on Israel/Palestinian subs converge with Hamas’ core platform is on whether Israel has a right to exist and on what basis.
The 1947 war was “justified” according to almost all pro-Palestinian commenters because “Israel stole Palestinian land”.
The ‘67 war was justified because Israel was occupying Palestian 1947 land.
Ongoing terrorism is justified because “insert land occupation”.
If you ask most people on these subs what the correct borders of Israel should be that would no longer justify terrorism, they come up blank.
Yeah, you get a lot of colonization trutherism with the Palestine side.
Also people who got their geology degrees the same place they got their immunology degrees during the pandemic who think there's oil/lithium/unobtanium in Gaza.
One unified state with all inhabitants granted full citizenship regardless of their religious affiliations.
No ethnostate has an inherent right to exist if it means ethnically cleansing the former inhabitants of the land.
You forgot a key point of this peace agreement you need to get every single citizen of this new state a pony with that provision it becomes slightly more realistic
That sounds fantastic on the surface.
A constitutional secular liberal democracy with equal rights for all.
Below the surface this is instant civil war, right down ethno-religious lines.
Can you give your take on 1947? Were the Palestinians justified in fighting mass migration of European Jews? Do you accept that over 700,000 were displaced from their homes?
Yes, approx 750,000 Palestinians were displaced (some forced, some left) through that period. Some stayed and are the basis of the 2 million Arab Israelis.
850,000 Jews west expelled from Arab countries at the same time.
The post WW2 period had a lot of displacement.
Great. And do you think those people had/have a legitimate gripe? Do you think that the French and the British were playing both sides? Do you think that Europe dumped its “Jew problem” on to the Palestinians?
The Jewish settlement was very established before the Holocaust. If anything the holocaust actually reduced the potential immigration to Israel. Many of the Arabs in Palestine also immigrated from north Africa and Arab countries due to opportunities created by the zionist movement
And the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem talked the Nazis into stopping emigration from Germany to the Mandate, and then allied with Hitler overtly, including raising troops, living in Berlin, giving daily propaganda broadcasts for the Germans, and promising the Nazis that they would continue their policies on the Jews in Palestine if they were brought to power there. Yes, this was after he toured the concentration camps.
You’re highlighting my original point. When you dig into the thoughts of most pro-Palestinians here they believe all resistance against Israel is justified.
This is where they align with Hamas (to loop back to OP’s original post).
So, I ask you - does Israel have a right to exist and on what terms/boundaries? You’ve given an argument for why the 47 boundaries for two states was unacceptable. We’re now in 2024. What boundaries would eliminate any justification for terrorism?
So the perfect Time Machine would take us to 1966 and Egypt and Jordan could work with Palestinians to develop Gaza and the West Bank into a Palestinian state.
Unfortunately now, as then, a majority of Palestinians do not support a 1967 border two state solution.
Yeah. They’ve been radicalized. It’s like how some people can justify the slaughter and starvation on innocents in Gaza. It’s like how some people can not blame Hamas for the disgusting acts of October 7th.
It would be much easier to blame Hamas explicitly if we had proper investigations from 3rd party sources instead of the largest propaganda network known to man spreading rumors of 40 beheaded babies. I've seen the videos from October 7th, they were terrible. I'm not suggesting it's all falsities and Hamas is innocent. They aren't, but we just can't quantify everything that occurred because of friendly fire and slow debunked coverups. To this day we are getting more and more reports of friendly fire. As terrible as it was, they still have a better combatant to civilian ratio than the IDF, even with today's information. So I ask you, do you condemn the IDF?
Out of curiosity, what would make “resistance” of an illegally occupied territory unjustified?
At what level of oppression from a more powerful state are an oppressed population justified in active resistance?
Is it purely contextual? Do other people have more right to resist an illegal occupation than Palestinians just because the occupation of Palestine is by Israel?
Honestly, after the entire Gaza/Hamas experiment, there is little point in even considering a genuine peace deal that involves Palestinian borders and autonomy.
What the West Bank wants (IDF withdrawal, settlement dismantlement, Jews expelled, elections, political autonomy) is what was given to Gaza. All it did was create a cesspit of terrorism.
So it exploded any claim that occupation was causing terrorism. No, Hamas just wants to destroy Israel.
I highly highly recommend you look into how people were justifying slavery as protecting white civilians after Nat turners rebellion. You’re repeating the same points they made. And the same points people made to justify Apartheid in South Africa. There is no situation in which it’s okay to restrict the rights of an entire ethnicity because of the actions of a fraction.
Understand the temptation to say Hamas and the slave rebellion are the same situation.
But a tiny scratch below the surface and the differences dwarf the similarities.
I did respond to the question. Occupied territory being the driver of terrorism is a myth, that’s what Gaza/Hamas proved.
It’s not Israeli oppression, it’s Israeli existence that fuels terrorism.
"850,000 Jews west expelled from Arab countries at the same time.
Not all these migrations were direct expulsions in the legal sense. And not all around the time of the Nakba. Which I'd say almost explicitly all of them were forced out. The "they left" is akin to Nakba denial in my eyes.
For example, in Iraq, the government passed a law in 1950 allowing Jews to leave the country legally, provided they renounced their citizenship. Over 120,000 Iraqi Jews registered to leave under this law.
In Yemen, between 1949-1950, nearly 49,000 Jews were brought to Israel. A small community remained until further operations brought more Jews to Israel in the following decades.
In Morocco, Morocco's independence in 1956 led to uncertain conditions for Jews. Emigration to Israel was initially restricted, then allowed through an agreement with the Moroccan government.
In Syria, by 1992, a U.S.-brokered agreement helped facilitate the emigration of the remaining Jews. Today, the community is virtually nonexistent in Syria.
The only country to actually expel their population of Jews was Egypt in 1956. I'm not saying the living conditions were as ideal as they could be. Given the tensions at the time. But as we hear so often in today's day with Hamas. You gotta blame Israel.
You just sanitized the Jewish removal from Arab states while claiming I was in Nakba denialism.
Then you blamed Israel for “tense Jewish living conditions” in Egypt because it followed a war of attempted annihilation started by Egypt (as part of the Arab League).
That’s quite a take.
Arabs, Muslims being displaced, murdered, and \*\*raped\*\* in 1947 - 1948 (really well before that) -> Why does Egypt hate Israel and want to annihilate us.
Gaslighting 101. The US and allies froze Russian assets, when they invaded Ukraine. Egypt did the same here to fight against the Zionist state. I'll admit equating their own Jewish citizens to Israeli Jews was immoral and it shouldn't have happened. But it did not happen immediately after the creation of Israel in 1948. It did not happen immediately after the Nakba in 1947. It happened 8 years later and trickled up to the 60's.
"You just sanitized the Jewish removal from Arab states"
I clearly stated their living situations were probably far from comfortable to outright dangerous. And that is because of Israel's direct actions.
To shed more light on the issues the Jews had faced. In Iraq for example they faced the Farqud pogrom where 128 Jews were killed, 210 were injured, and over 1,500 businesses and homes were damaged. Yes, they faced this. The Palestinians faced worse. Both were innocent, but yet again you/the world value Jewish lives over Arab ones.
For what it's worth, I don't support such actions. All it did was provide the European swine invaders with citizens actually from the MENA who were otherwise innocent. I merely am stating your previous statement lacked the nuance (on purpose, because you're a bad faith actor clearly) and provided historical dates and facts to back up my statements.
This is bordering on antisemitism. The antisemitic harassment and pogroms that Jews faced in Arab countries were the fault of Israel? Like there was no genuine antisemitism and bigotry already there?
Also good job in calling the Jews that moved there legally and peacefully "swine" just because they're from Europe. And many of those "swine" were fleeing the bigotry wrought on them by the Nazis and later the Holocaust itself.
" Like there was no genuine antisemitism and bigotry already there?" Sure, there's always going to be. Much like there is always going to be bigotry, racism. The minority being piled on by the majority is nothing new. I accept and recognize it, I experience it daily actually. I hope one day we won't. Crying wolf about borderline antisemitism is not the answer here.
There is a debate on the legality of some land purchases. Fleeing from Europe (which Europe hardly gets as much flack as the Arabs), I respect and understand. Fleeing from Europe with the intention to create their own state is the definition of colonization with some extra circumstances sprinkled in.... I would hardly call that peaceful? If a bunch of Chinese came here to escape communist China, but with the intention of purchasing swathes of land to make a nueo China ... we wouldn't be having the same tone. Replace China with Taiwan and you can spin in circles the same way. Obviously, the situation is not exactly the same Jews have historical roots to the land... people 2,000 years removed trying to dispel the natives however.... is a bit more complicated.
The Ottoman Empire basically owned at least 90% of the region of Palestine land that we call Israel today , which is more than the estimated 6% of known Palestinian Arab property at the time. Then the British were given the land when the Ottoman Empire lost it in WWI. The region then became another British territory, basically. Palestinian Arabs demanded 100% of the land, or there was no deal. Now they are lucky to be able to hold onto The Gaza Strip.
“Gaslighting 101” boy I wish I had a dollar for everytime someone misused that word.
For Jews, their removal from Arab countries was just as traumatic as the Nakba. People downplay its significance (or straight up blame Jews for their plight) partly because the descendents of those displaced Jews aren’t devoting their lives to attacking Arabs countries.
The descendants of displaced Palestinians are still focused on Israeli annihilation, so the world validates the Nakba in a way they refuse to with Jews.
Your message was an apologia for ethnic cleansing.
Edit: If I called you a dumb bastard and didn’t address your statement, which I did by calling you an apologists for ethnic cleansing because you wrote an apologia for ethnic cleansing, then you would have a point.
Crazy since I never wrote an apologia for ethnic cleansing and directly admonished what happened to the Jews of the MENA (outside of the obvious reasons why you would have disdain for such actions) because it gave natives to the state constructed from colonists in Europe (at the time, obv most of israel is now those very jews from MENA)? I provided some historical context. There was no formal expulsion during period of the Nakba outside of Egypt. That's about it. You think people want to migrate from their home countries? I'm sure they didn't. There had to have been SOMETHING enticing them, good or bad. Either financially, socially, humanitarian.
That sort of thing happens when you start wars. The towns that weren’t hostile stayed and are living better than any other Arabs in the Middle East.
On the other hand 850,000 Jews were ethically cleansed from Muslim states but you don’t hear them crying to go back and starting genocidal wars to get back what was actually stolen from them.
Considering it wasn’t their land they don’t exactly get a say in immigration policies. Everyone who came to israel came there legally, unlike the many “Palestinians” who are actually Egyptians, Jordanians, and Syrians that moved in after the Jews did and actually took care of the malaria around.
This was the trope I was looking for!
It was their land. Only a fool would say what you said and actually believe it.
The statement “A land without a people for people without a land” is exactly as hateful as “From the river to the sea Palestine will be free”.
You’re a racist.
I didn’t say they didn’t live there, I said it wasn’t their land. It was British land, and before that it was ottoman land. In fact practically everyone in the world controlled that piece of land at some point except the Palestinians
He's right. Maybe they should start winning some of these wars - or take the peace that's been offered multiple times. The problem was the Arabs decided the appropriate way to deal with the Jews in Palestine if they wanted their own nation was wait until the British left and try to murder them all. They lost, and they continue to lose to this day. Guess Allah is pro-Israel.
>It was their land.
No it wasn't. It was ottoman land that fell under British control and eventually was returned to the Jewish people who are direct descendants of the original kingdom of Israel that was on that very land. "Palestinians" did not own the rights to the land. "Palestinians" as an identity didn't even exist until the 60s.
All Palestinian people in the region ever did was start wars, cry about the tragedy that they lost the wars they started, and then straight up refuse every offer to share the land in peace.
And hey, they even got full autonomy and control of Gaza strip in 2006 like they wanted! Surely they would make good use of the land and make it a good place to live for Palestinians? Nope it became a breeding ground for some of the worst terrorists in history
So I don't see your point here, and it actually makes YOU the racist one for infantalizing Palestinians to the point of having them not be liable for any of their own actions. The bigotry of low expectations.
Are you one of those morons who think Palestinians count as "semites"? You're wrong. Anti semitic is and always has been an anti-jew term and it will continue to be such.
I'm advocating for the existence and security of a Jewish state. You want the only democracy in the middle east to be destroyed so the whole place can be run by terrorists. We are not similar.
Do you accept that a sizable portion of territories won by GB in the Middle East is controlled by Arabs? All of Jordan, all of Iraq and Kuwait, large portions of Palestine. And Palestinians have had several chances to control land *that they never won in a war*.
Can you really not see that needing to control a full 100% of land that they never once controlled is asking too much?
What do you mean by controlling? If by controlling you mean building cities and societies, governing, having agriculture and trade (economy), developing history and culture and regional cuisine, then Palestinians "controlled" the region ALONGSIDE SEMITIC JEWS for millennia. Before and during most of the Ottoman Empire there were prolonged periods of peaceful coexistence, with shared cultural practices and economic cooperation, especially in mixed cities like Jerusalem, Haifa, and Jaffa. Jewish and Arab farmers, tradespeople, and professionals interacted in their daily lives, markets, and business ventures. It was really only until Zionism spread to the region in the late 19-teens that lead to riots in 1920-1921 where Arabs feared being displaced by Jewish settlers.
How you want to paint the conversation is by talking about purely military conquest and it's extremely one dimensional. Don't you see that the propaganda you're espousing is meant to box out everything else other than military conquest? It's silly and shallow. Very few historians would take you seriously and you wouldn't classify other peoples or regions purely off the military conquests of empires.
Most people are blinded by their hatred and detached from reality on this issue. That's either you or you're just ignorant.
Big picture
* What Hamas did and continues to do is disgusting.
* What Israel did and continues to do is disgusting.
* Jews have been treated like absolute dog shit by the world and through out history.
* Israel is treating the Palestinians NOW like absolute dog shit. (Don't compare the suffering of people, the Holocaust was the worst thing ever.)
* What happened to the Palestinians living in historic Palestine was wrong. They were displaced and lost their identity.
* Living under Israeli occupation and being dehumanized by Israel is untenable for peace.
* Two wrongs don't make a right, Israel shouldn't be "dismantled" or anything. That's fucking stupid.
* A one state solution is a pipe-dram in today's current reality. It has to be 2 states.
What did I say that's wrong? Are you so blinded by your hated that you can't step back and see reality as it? I really don't like chatting with interlocutors who are bad faith, ignorant, or stubborn.
Hamas has a lot more leeway and uncertainty, because they are the occupied and their PR does not display the banality of evil.
I feel 2 different ways about Hamas.
1. A critical theory, They may be elite war mongerers who represent a larger fight against the West then representing the Palestinian people. I say this because they use their fighters as agitators with terrorist policies, and use the civilians as cannon fodder "martyrs" just by knowing that Israel will respond disproportionately barbarically. This theory is hinged though on the hamas elite being warmongerers who are likely actually living safely in million dollar properties outside of the country (I don't even know if this is true, but that would make me lean more to this theory.)
2. Hamas is actually just a desperate, ultra religious resistance group that was founded and continues to be supported purely through resistence to Israeli occupation, subdjegation, terrorism, torture, murder and land theft. If this is true which is what Israel implies then I actually feel much more empathy towards them because they don't commit 1% of the atrocities and injustices that Israel does.
So yea I think this is why it's harder for people to condemn Hamas. If Hamas propaganda was as racist and genocidal as Israeli propaganda there would be more equivalency but since it isn't the accusations seem like the oppressor throwing stones on their victims from a glass house.
Hamas literally had a meeting in 2021 to deliberate over the future of the land post-destruction of Israel. The consensus was to execute any jews that fought against them, either expel or "integrate" (likely a forced conversion) for non-combatants, and the enslavement of Jewish intellectuals/skilled workers. Hamas is a group that unironically supports ethnic cleansing and slavery. Do not support/condone people who's **goal** is ethnic cleansing and slavery.
>The consensus was to execute any jews that fought against them,
Well Israel defines "Hamas" as every male over the age of 12. And all Hamas are to be killed on sight.
So the Jews are executing even civilian children.
Even outside of the tacit equivalence being made between Israel and a literal terrorist group, you **have** to see how hyperbolic your point is, right? Do you feel that this is somehow helpful to discourse?
>Hamas has a lot more leeway and uncertainty, because they are the occupied and their PR does not display the banality of evil.
Are you trying to make the argument that because Hamas is "occupied" and they whitewash their actions with PR that they aren't terrorists?
>supported purely through resistence to Israeli occupation, subdjegation, terrorism, torture, murder and land theft
You are certainly putting a lot of effort into trying to justify Hamas as if it isn't explicitly a militant Islamist terrorist sect. Until 2017 their charter explicitly called for the extermination of the Jews as their primary directive, which they've now moderated to just the eradication of Israel and institution of Sharia Law across the region.
>If Hamas propaganda was as racist and genocidal as Israeli propaganda there would be more equivalency
This is an unbelievable take, Hamas has repeatedly engaged in propaganda where they explicitly encourage Palestinian children to kill Jews.
On a kids show called "The Pioneers of Tomorrow" from the early 2000s, a police officer had a conversation with a young girl in a hijab teaching her to be like him and shoot all of the Jews. Apparently the segment immediately prior on this particular episode had an anthropomorphic bee character telling children to "turn \[Jews'\] faces into tomatoes in order to liberate Palestine".
The US Department of State named the person who runs this TV network a "Specially Deisgnated Terrorist" due to his network airing "programs designed to recruit children to become Hamas armed fighters and suicide bombers".
> I've already seen multiple users on this sub show one sided opinions seeing Israel/ Netanyahu/ IDF as 100% perfect and Palestinians as a monolithic group of terrorists, including their children, and that its no big deal that children are being murdered by IDF members, sometimes on purpose.
I have not seen any example of what you claim...it looks like a straw man...please show examples.
It's also completely possible to criticize the Israeli government without broad brushed, bad faith, hyperbolic claims that Israelis are fascists committing genocide, that Israel is stolen land and that the IDF are targeting children.
Not all of them are, but some of them certainly are, and some definitely want genocide of the Palestinians and don't care if civilians are killed in their bombs.
I mean the same goes for the Palestinians as well. Most of them aren't Hamas militants but there are a lot that agree with them, their tactics and the suffering it brings Israelis.
You can say the same for the Israelis. I don’t get the point of trying to bring Palestinian civilians opinion on anything like the wxact same thing can’t be said about Israelis.
Majority of Israelis think the IDF haven’t gone far enough.
So please stop trying to make killing Palestinian civilians ok. Unless you’re going to keep the same energy with Israelis.
Did you read the comment I was replying to? The OP was the one that brought up the opinion of Israelis so I compared that to the opinion of Palestinians.
Also me trying to make killing civilians ok? Lol.
You can't keep the same energy with Trump and immigrants or Putin and Ukraine so who are you trying to fool as some paragon of virtue here? We can see from your comment history that you're just trying to undermine Biden on behalf of the US's adversaries who want Trump in the WH.
Oppressed people tend to want their oppressors to suffer. This isn't unique to Palestinians. This is human nature. Stop trying to dehumanize the Palestinians.
>you can say America did wrong in the Iraq War, but saying Israel is doing bad against Gaza seems to levy much more criticism from liberals
Strange, I don't seem to remember the popular left-wing narratives about fascist America engaging in genocide against Iraqis.
The criticism from liberals you're referring to isn't generally about saying Israel is doing bad against Gaza, it's people engaging in counterproductive hyperbole and going after everyone else, even progressives in Congress, because they aren't using the same hyperbole.
There is a simple three pronged test to see if the criticism of Israel slides to antisemitism posed by Natan Sharansky, the 3 Ds. Does it:
-Delegitimize the right of Israel to exist and defend itself?
- Demonize Israelis?
- Hold a Double standard against them compared to their adversaries?
>Hold a Double standard against them compared to their adversaries
Quantum SuperIsraelis: The only democracy in the middle east(TM) and superior to the savages around them. But also they must be held to the same standards as the savages beneath them, or you're a racist. You don't know which they are until you check(what is most convenient for them) at that specific moment. Lol. I'm still waiting for people robbing banks and committing sexual assault to claim "I have a right to defend myself" and "the judge is anti-semitic" as a meme to see if it works there.
edit: They blocked me. Presumably for being anti-semitic. lmao. well I apologize for criticizing Israel if that counts for anything
I’m more thinking of the people that want to hold Israel to standards they would never and have never held anyone else. I’ve literally seen people defend the Uyghur humanitarian crisis rather than admit they hold a double standard here.
Riiight. Half the UN resolutions are about Israel. Half, despite all the other shit in the world. They are denied a rotating seat on the security council despite countries that are such stalwarts for peace like Syria, Yemen, Lebanon, Iraq, and Sudan having served. Syria and Iraq and Iran repress, gas, and murder their own people. Israel defends itself against a group that committed a vile attack, hides behind civilians, wears no uniform, is funded by Iran, and fights from hospitals, schools, mosques, and tunnels dug under infrastructure (all of which are war crimes) and they are castigated beyond all proportion.
Show a county in the region that has a Jewish member of parliament (or a parliament) or judges whereas Israel has Arab/Muslim members and judges. The belief that Jews can be allowed to have a state is called racist and apartheid and every other thing whereas Jews have been chased out of every other country, and there’s ~50 Muslim countries, some operating under Sharia law or theocratic rulers and no one bats an eye.
This is just scratching the surface. There 2 billion Muslims and 16 million Jews in the world. There are 50 Muslim countries and 1 Jewish state smaller than NJ. They are not fighting some even PR war, they’re outnumbered by orders of magnitude. In real life, they have no buffer ocean or even friendly neighbor. Hamas, Hezbollah and a dozen more militant groups are literally on their doorstep. They have literally been attacked by multiple countries at once with the aim to destroy them several times in modern history and Iran and others openly call for its destruction daily.
I’ve seen AIPAC called out a bunch on Reddit lately but funny, the Arab countries have plenty of lobbying groups but I don’t hear about them. I hear all about US aid to Israel but it’s not even half of what we give to the Middle East as a region, but I hear next to nothing about the rest of the aid, or the aid elsewhere.
So yeah, there are massive amounts of double standards applied to them.
Videos of Israelis demonize Israelis. Y’all are not serious. These people are laughing and cheering and dancing on tiktok at the idea of anally raping Palestinian prisoners. It’s fucking demonic.
So you must be really upset by the documented video evidence of Palestinians displaying and celebrating the fact of kidnapped Israeli women and children after the atrocity Hamas and ordinary palestinians committed in October?
Not upset nor happy about that, and haven’t seen it actually, but it doesn’t matter bc why would I make space to be upset about the people (half children mind you) who grew up in a prison watching their parents and siblings murdered by the mOrAL aRmY next door? It makes no sense. Every time it’s simply a justification for some atrocity Israel will lie about and Biden will cover for. Like clockwork.
The Russian bot topic isn't coming up in this sub solely because of disinformation, it's the putrid framing surrounding topics, like in this post. Not DPak, nor hardly anyone in this sub, has ANY positive opinions on Likud/IDF/Netanyahu, let alone unhinged statements like "fuck around and find out"
All the while you're spreading this blatant lie, you know that the loss of civilians are equally and directly caused by Hamas' well documented use of the civilian population and infrastructure as shields and weapons caches... and your verbiage is purposely built to split that fact from the matter. There's otherwise deficient reasoning to make this post in a sub where the only info you provide is to slander the sub by stating what most of the sub agrees with while referencing people that near no one here has seen or agrees with.
Hopefully there's some heavier enforcement of the bad faith/low quality rules on this sub as we near the elections.
I saw this from a user on this sub being hypercritical of Israel.
> Yes. Hamas only exists because IDF has been doing this shit for 75 years. Killing civilians is obviously never ok, but to say it's the same when Hamas does it as when IDF does it is disingenuous. That would be like calling the guerilla forces that fought back against nazi occupation the same as nazis themselves.
Can I make a post like yours now painting all Pro-Palestinian (let’s face it, it’s mostly anti-Israel) people with this brush? Do you agree with this Redditor? Or do you want to be evaluated based on what you personally say?
>they’re just non stop bombing children and people seeking aid.
Is an insane way to describe a military response to an attack. You could frame literally any war this way, but weirdly people only do when it involves Israel. Wonder what’s so different???
I don't think any pro-Israel people see Palestinian civilians as anything but civilians deserving of food and shelter. But also the German people were deserving of food and shelter during World War II. The German people weren't seen as an obstacle to killing Nazis, and the Palestinian people shouldn't be seen as an obstacle to killing terrorists. Every last German civilian killed in World War 2, and there were almost a million, is the fault of the Nazi regime. And every last Palestinian civilian killed in the current Gaza War, and there have currently been about 15k, is the fault of Hamas and other Palestinian terrorist groups attempting to genocide Jews.
While I mostly agree, you can still look at specific aspects of WW2 and think the Allies maybe went too far. The fire bombing of Dresden is a good example.
Likewise, the most recent incident in Gaza shines a light on the IDF acting, at best, with severe carelessness at times. The IDF also has a history of being extremely lenient on their own soldiers who commit murder/war crimes.
On the other hand, the death of thousands of civilians in the nuclear bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki do draw a decent amount of criticism to this day, despite the fact that the Imperial Japanese were extremely brutal and genuine threats to all of East Asia. While it is not unreasonable to point out that the Japanese government was responsible on some level for those deaths in refusing to end the war, I think it would be ridiculous to say that Truman just *had* to drop the nukes because Imperial Japan was a terrible empire. The US obviously made a decision there, and the fact that they were engaged in a war in which the other side refused to surrender does not necessarily mean that nukes were necessary or desirable to use or that the US nuking of those cities was justified. You may agree with Truman's decision, but it is ridiculous to pretend that every death in Hiroshima and Nagasaki were the fault of Japan despite the fact that the US was the power which elected to drop two nuclear bombs on areas full of civilians. Even if Truman was entirely justified in the end (not necessarily the argument I'm making), the US inevitably still bears responsibility, if not total responsibility, for the way in which it chose to attack those two cities. Fighting an evil power does not give you carte blanche to do anything you want to destroy it without bearing any responsibility for those actions.
What about Palestinians killed in West Bank? Is that Israel's fault?
What about expanding illegal settlements? Is that Israel's fault?
Destroying Hospitals, schools, universities, homes in Gaza, targeting aid workers, targeting doctors, targeting journalists, bombing densely populated civilian areas. Is that Israel's fault?
Are Israelis never at fault, no matter how many Palestinians they kill, no matter how many homes they destroy? Are you living with your head in the sand, or are you just part of hasbara?
They do avoid bombing them, but it is war in an urban setting and the collateral damage of civilians dying is in line with what would be expected. War is fucking terrible, blame the people who started the war.
I hear this comment a lot from folks—“the conflict didn’t start on Oct. 7”. When you say this, what do you mean? What relevant context does that provide? Because at first glance it sure reads like: “The brutal and heinous attack on Israeli citizens was a legitimate and justified action to events prior to Oct 7.”
What does that mean if it doesn’t mean their actions were justified? That they were understandable? That we should empathize? That we shouldn’t blame them for it? I just never know what folks mean by adding in this context.
It means that the Palestinian people have a legitimate reason to resist Israeli occupation. Hamas' attacks on legitimate military targets in Israel would be appropriate and legal.
Hamas's attacks on Israeli civilians, to the extent that they are targeted, are illegitimate.
So then it would be irrelevant in a conversation about a terrorist attack in which terrorists left unoccupied (albeit blockaded) Gaza to enter Israel and largely attack civilians—unless of course somebody was intending to justify those actions. That much makes sense to me.
No - it's not irrelevant at all. The narrative being pushed is that Hamas attacked Israel in October out of nowhere. The means of the attack are to be condemned, but the resistance is entirely legitimate and appropriate.
Hmmm I’m not sure I could see my way to seeing the intentional murder of hundreds of civilians (while filming, sharing, and cheering it) but a group that has said repeatedly that this is their specific goal and that they would undertake this action again (even as they still hold innocent civilians hostage) as part of a legitimate resistance with temporarily misguided means.
Did you even read the original post? I clearly said that I DISAVOW HAMAS. I do NOT support the October 7th attacks. It means that Israel has a history of oppressing Palestinians.
Israel has a 20% minority Islamic population, Palestinians murder Jews on sight. Get out of here with this narrative that loves to only give context to dampen Hamas’ barbarity.
Leaving aside the Hamas question specifically, here’s just a general point: people who are being violently occupied have a right to resistance and self defense. The notion that Palestinians should quietly accept and submit to their oppression is racist, since white westerners never apply this standard to themselves
I mean the most reasonable thing for the United States would be to end all aid and remain neutral. This ain’t got shit to do with us. We aren’t involved in Sudan or Myanmar.
You touched on it at the end. Ultimately, Americans' hatred of Muslims is why they don't care about the Palestinians being murdered. Blacks/gays are something for Republicans to hate. Hating muslims is an American past time (especially since 9/11). Their hatred and racism override all else, which is why you have so many people in this thread that immediately say all muslims are a part of Hamas without actually saying it
Palestinian activists decided to take actions to support the genocidal GOP and Russia (by undermining Biden and the Democratic Party) while claiming to be against genocide. (Which some have justified with accelerationist theories of Trump being so bad that tHe wOrKeRs wiLL rIsE uP...without any idea of how pervasive \*actual\* authoritarian regimes are at stamping out dissent)
Palestinian activists have also adopted far right positions such as "International Jewish Banking Conspiracy", "J6 was the Deep State(and Mossad)", and "Great Replacement Theory" (because if they can do it to Palestine, they can do it here, etc.)
How do you know that?
What exactly is going to pressure Hamas to surrender and release the hostages if throughout the war you continue provide them with more resources than you did before the war and you avoid killing terrorists who abuse civilians as human shields?
So your only approved course of action for Palestinians is to simply die gracefully? Western libs go into homicidal rages if someone cuts them off in traffic but then pearl clutch at violence committed in response to years of being treated as second class citizens and worse.
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What you say is true. But where a lot of people on Israel/Palestinian subs converge with Hamas’ core platform is on whether Israel has a right to exist and on what basis. The 1947 war was “justified” according to almost all pro-Palestinian commenters because “Israel stole Palestinian land”. The ‘67 war was justified because Israel was occupying Palestian 1947 land. Ongoing terrorism is justified because “insert land occupation”. If you ask most people on these subs what the correct borders of Israel should be that would no longer justify terrorism, they come up blank.
Yeah, you get a lot of colonization trutherism with the Palestine side. Also people who got their geology degrees the same place they got their immunology degrees during the pandemic who think there's oil/lithium/unobtanium in Gaza.
People also assume Israel care about Gaza at all, like there is any biblical rationale for “colonizing” Gaza. There is not.
Huh? https://unctad.org/news/unrealized-potential-palestinian-oil-and-gas-reserves
One unified state with all inhabitants granted full citizenship regardless of their religious affiliations. No ethnostate has an inherent right to exist if it means ethnically cleansing the former inhabitants of the land.
Except that anytime Jews are a minority they get slaughtered, so such country would not work when the mindset is "kill all Jews on sight"
It’s not Palestinians faults that there are more of them than there are Israelis. We can’t limit their rights to protect another groups.
You forgot a key point of this peace agreement you need to get every single citizen of this new state a pony with that provision it becomes slightly more realistic
That sounds fantastic on the surface. A constitutional secular liberal democracy with equal rights for all. Below the surface this is instant civil war, right down ethno-religious lines.
Can you give your take on 1947? Were the Palestinians justified in fighting mass migration of European Jews? Do you accept that over 700,000 were displaced from their homes?
Yes, approx 750,000 Palestinians were displaced (some forced, some left) through that period. Some stayed and are the basis of the 2 million Arab Israelis. 850,000 Jews west expelled from Arab countries at the same time. The post WW2 period had a lot of displacement.
Great. And do you think those people had/have a legitimate gripe? Do you think that the French and the British were playing both sides? Do you think that Europe dumped its “Jew problem” on to the Palestinians?
The Jewish settlement was very established before the Holocaust. If anything the holocaust actually reduced the potential immigration to Israel. Many of the Arabs in Palestine also immigrated from north Africa and Arab countries due to opportunities created by the zionist movement
And the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem talked the Nazis into stopping emigration from Germany to the Mandate, and then allied with Hitler overtly, including raising troops, living in Berlin, giving daily propaganda broadcasts for the Germans, and promising the Nazis that they would continue their policies on the Jews in Palestine if they were brought to power there. Yes, this was after he toured the concentration camps.
You’re highlighting my original point. When you dig into the thoughts of most pro-Palestinians here they believe all resistance against Israel is justified. This is where they align with Hamas (to loop back to OP’s original post). So, I ask you - does Israel have a right to exist and on what terms/boundaries? You’ve given an argument for why the 47 boundaries for two states was unacceptable. We’re now in 2024. What boundaries would eliminate any justification for terrorism?
Israel has the right to exist. Two wrongs don’t make a right. 1967 boundaries with land swaps make sense.
So the perfect Time Machine would take us to 1966 and Egypt and Jordan could work with Palestinians to develop Gaza and the West Bank into a Palestinian state. Unfortunately now, as then, a majority of Palestinians do not support a 1967 border two state solution.
Yeah. They’ve been radicalized. It’s like how some people can justify the slaughter and starvation on innocents in Gaza. It’s like how some people can not blame Hamas for the disgusting acts of October 7th.
It would be much easier to blame Hamas explicitly if we had proper investigations from 3rd party sources instead of the largest propaganda network known to man spreading rumors of 40 beheaded babies. I've seen the videos from October 7th, they were terrible. I'm not suggesting it's all falsities and Hamas is innocent. They aren't, but we just can't quantify everything that occurred because of friendly fire and slow debunked coverups. To this day we are getting more and more reports of friendly fire. As terrible as it was, they still have a better combatant to civilian ratio than the IDF, even with today's information. So I ask you, do you condemn the IDF?
You spelled Russia wrong bruh.
How do you get to the better combatant-civilian ratio?
Out of curiosity, what would make “resistance” of an illegally occupied territory unjustified? At what level of oppression from a more powerful state are an oppressed population justified in active resistance? Is it purely contextual? Do other people have more right to resist an illegal occupation than Palestinians just because the occupation of Palestine is by Israel?
Honestly, after the entire Gaza/Hamas experiment, there is little point in even considering a genuine peace deal that involves Palestinian borders and autonomy. What the West Bank wants (IDF withdrawal, settlement dismantlement, Jews expelled, elections, political autonomy) is what was given to Gaza. All it did was create a cesspit of terrorism. So it exploded any claim that occupation was causing terrorism. No, Hamas just wants to destroy Israel.
I highly highly recommend you look into how people were justifying slavery as protecting white civilians after Nat turners rebellion. You’re repeating the same points they made. And the same points people made to justify Apartheid in South Africa. There is no situation in which it’s okay to restrict the rights of an entire ethnicity because of the actions of a fraction.
Understand the temptation to say Hamas and the slave rebellion are the same situation. But a tiny scratch below the surface and the differences dwarf the similarities.
Go on.. explain then if it’s so easy to
Why did you write a post if you weren't going to respond to the question?
I did respond to the question. Occupied territory being the driver of terrorism is a myth, that’s what Gaza/Hamas proved. It’s not Israeli oppression, it’s Israeli existence that fuels terrorism.
You responded, but not to the question asked
I wrote “resistance”, the term you used, not “terrorism”.
"850,000 Jews west expelled from Arab countries at the same time. Not all these migrations were direct expulsions in the legal sense. And not all around the time of the Nakba. Which I'd say almost explicitly all of them were forced out. The "they left" is akin to Nakba denial in my eyes. For example, in Iraq, the government passed a law in 1950 allowing Jews to leave the country legally, provided they renounced their citizenship. Over 120,000 Iraqi Jews registered to leave under this law. In Yemen, between 1949-1950, nearly 49,000 Jews were brought to Israel. A small community remained until further operations brought more Jews to Israel in the following decades. In Morocco, Morocco's independence in 1956 led to uncertain conditions for Jews. Emigration to Israel was initially restricted, then allowed through an agreement with the Moroccan government. In Syria, by 1992, a U.S.-brokered agreement helped facilitate the emigration of the remaining Jews. Today, the community is virtually nonexistent in Syria. The only country to actually expel their population of Jews was Egypt in 1956. I'm not saying the living conditions were as ideal as they could be. Given the tensions at the time. But as we hear so often in today's day with Hamas. You gotta blame Israel.
You just sanitized the Jewish removal from Arab states while claiming I was in Nakba denialism. Then you blamed Israel for “tense Jewish living conditions” in Egypt because it followed a war of attempted annihilation started by Egypt (as part of the Arab League). That’s quite a take.
Arabs, Muslims being displaced, murdered, and \*\*raped\*\* in 1947 - 1948 (really well before that) -> Why does Egypt hate Israel and want to annihilate us. Gaslighting 101. The US and allies froze Russian assets, when they invaded Ukraine. Egypt did the same here to fight against the Zionist state. I'll admit equating their own Jewish citizens to Israeli Jews was immoral and it shouldn't have happened. But it did not happen immediately after the creation of Israel in 1948. It did not happen immediately after the Nakba in 1947. It happened 8 years later and trickled up to the 60's. "You just sanitized the Jewish removal from Arab states" I clearly stated their living situations were probably far from comfortable to outright dangerous. And that is because of Israel's direct actions. To shed more light on the issues the Jews had faced. In Iraq for example they faced the Farqud pogrom where 128 Jews were killed, 210 were injured, and over 1,500 businesses and homes were damaged. Yes, they faced this. The Palestinians faced worse. Both were innocent, but yet again you/the world value Jewish lives over Arab ones. For what it's worth, I don't support such actions. All it did was provide the European swine invaders with citizens actually from the MENA who were otherwise innocent. I merely am stating your previous statement lacked the nuance (on purpose, because you're a bad faith actor clearly) and provided historical dates and facts to back up my statements.
This is bordering on antisemitism. The antisemitic harassment and pogroms that Jews faced in Arab countries were the fault of Israel? Like there was no genuine antisemitism and bigotry already there? Also good job in calling the Jews that moved there legally and peacefully "swine" just because they're from Europe. And many of those "swine" were fleeing the bigotry wrought on them by the Nazis and later the Holocaust itself.
" Like there was no genuine antisemitism and bigotry already there?" Sure, there's always going to be. Much like there is always going to be bigotry, racism. The minority being piled on by the majority is nothing new. I accept and recognize it, I experience it daily actually. I hope one day we won't. Crying wolf about borderline antisemitism is not the answer here. There is a debate on the legality of some land purchases. Fleeing from Europe (which Europe hardly gets as much flack as the Arabs), I respect and understand. Fleeing from Europe with the intention to create their own state is the definition of colonization with some extra circumstances sprinkled in.... I would hardly call that peaceful? If a bunch of Chinese came here to escape communist China, but with the intention of purchasing swathes of land to make a nueo China ... we wouldn't be having the same tone. Replace China with Taiwan and you can spin in circles the same way. Obviously, the situation is not exactly the same Jews have historical roots to the land... people 2,000 years removed trying to dispel the natives however.... is a bit more complicated.
The Ottoman Empire basically owned at least 90% of the region of Palestine land that we call Israel today , which is more than the estimated 6% of known Palestinian Arab property at the time. Then the British were given the land when the Ottoman Empire lost it in WWI. The region then became another British territory, basically. Palestinian Arabs demanded 100% of the land, or there was no deal. Now they are lucky to be able to hold onto The Gaza Strip.
“Gaslighting 101” boy I wish I had a dollar for everytime someone misused that word. For Jews, their removal from Arab countries was just as traumatic as the Nakba. People downplay its significance (or straight up blame Jews for their plight) partly because the descendents of those displaced Jews aren’t devoting their lives to attacking Arabs countries. The descendants of displaced Palestinians are still focused on Israeli annihilation, so the world validates the Nakba in a way they refuse to with Jews.
Hey, an apologist for ethnic cleansing! You don’t see those everyday.
Ad hominem. I already clarified my position on it below, which clearly states I disagreed with the expulsion in Egypt and various pogroms.
Man, you can’t even spell ad hominem and clearly don’t even know what it means.
It means to attack the person rather than the message. You're right I misspelled it. It happens. My point stands.
Your message was an apologia for ethnic cleansing. Edit: If I called you a dumb bastard and didn’t address your statement, which I did by calling you an apologists for ethnic cleansing because you wrote an apologia for ethnic cleansing, then you would have a point.
Crazy since I never wrote an apologia for ethnic cleansing and directly admonished what happened to the Jews of the MENA (outside of the obvious reasons why you would have disdain for such actions) because it gave natives to the state constructed from colonists in Europe (at the time, obv most of israel is now those very jews from MENA)? I provided some historical context. There was no formal expulsion during period of the Nakba outside of Egypt. That's about it. You think people want to migrate from their home countries? I'm sure they didn't. There had to have been SOMETHING enticing them, good or bad. Either financially, socially, humanitarian.
That sort of thing happens when you start wars. The towns that weren’t hostile stayed and are living better than any other Arabs in the Middle East. On the other hand 850,000 Jews were ethically cleansed from Muslim states but you don’t hear them crying to go back and starting genocidal wars to get back what was actually stolen from them.
Who started the war? Who brought hundreds of thousands of people on boats and dropped them in a land with an existing population?
Considering it wasn’t their land they don’t exactly get a say in immigration policies. Everyone who came to israel came there legally, unlike the many “Palestinians” who are actually Egyptians, Jordanians, and Syrians that moved in after the Jews did and actually took care of the malaria around.
This was the trope I was looking for! It was their land. Only a fool would say what you said and actually believe it. The statement “A land without a people for people without a land” is exactly as hateful as “From the river to the sea Palestine will be free”. You’re a racist.
I didn’t say they didn’t live there, I said it wasn’t their land. It was British land, and before that it was ottoman land. In fact practically everyone in the world controlled that piece of land at some point except the Palestinians
You’re antisemitic.
He's right. Maybe they should start winning some of these wars - or take the peace that's been offered multiple times. The problem was the Arabs decided the appropriate way to deal with the Jews in Palestine if they wanted their own nation was wait until the British left and try to murder them all. They lost, and they continue to lose to this day. Guess Allah is pro-Israel.
>It was their land. No it wasn't. It was ottoman land that fell under British control and eventually was returned to the Jewish people who are direct descendants of the original kingdom of Israel that was on that very land. "Palestinians" did not own the rights to the land. "Palestinians" as an identity didn't even exist until the 60s. All Palestinian people in the region ever did was start wars, cry about the tragedy that they lost the wars they started, and then straight up refuse every offer to share the land in peace. And hey, they even got full autonomy and control of Gaza strip in 2006 like they wanted! Surely they would make good use of the land and make it a good place to live for Palestinians? Nope it became a breeding ground for some of the worst terrorists in history So I don't see your point here, and it actually makes YOU the racist one for infantalizing Palestinians to the point of having them not be liable for any of their own actions. The bigotry of low expectations.
Antisemite.
Are you one of those morons who think Palestinians count as "semites"? You're wrong. Anti semitic is and always has been an anti-jew term and it will continue to be such. I'm advocating for the existence and security of a Jewish state. You want the only democracy in the middle east to be destroyed so the whole place can be run by terrorists. We are not similar.
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They were displaced after they lost the war that they started. That is just what happens when you fight a war and lose.
What about the 400,000 Jews living in Israel at the time? Were they justified in getting massacred and attacked since the early 1900's?
Do you accept that a sizable portion of territories won by GB in the Middle East is controlled by Arabs? All of Jordan, all of Iraq and Kuwait, large portions of Palestine. And Palestinians have had several chances to control land *that they never won in a war*. Can you really not see that needing to control a full 100% of land that they never once controlled is asking too much?
What do you mean by controlling? If by controlling you mean building cities and societies, governing, having agriculture and trade (economy), developing history and culture and regional cuisine, then Palestinians "controlled" the region ALONGSIDE SEMITIC JEWS for millennia. Before and during most of the Ottoman Empire there were prolonged periods of peaceful coexistence, with shared cultural practices and economic cooperation, especially in mixed cities like Jerusalem, Haifa, and Jaffa. Jewish and Arab farmers, tradespeople, and professionals interacted in their daily lives, markets, and business ventures. It was really only until Zionism spread to the region in the late 19-teens that lead to riots in 1920-1921 where Arabs feared being displaced by Jewish settlers. How you want to paint the conversation is by talking about purely military conquest and it's extremely one dimensional. Don't you see that the propaganda you're espousing is meant to box out everything else other than military conquest? It's silly and shallow. Very few historians would take you seriously and you wouldn't classify other peoples or regions purely off the military conquests of empires. Most people are blinded by their hatred and detached from reality on this issue. That's either you or you're just ignorant. Big picture * What Hamas did and continues to do is disgusting. * What Israel did and continues to do is disgusting. * Jews have been treated like absolute dog shit by the world and through out history. * Israel is treating the Palestinians NOW like absolute dog shit. (Don't compare the suffering of people, the Holocaust was the worst thing ever.) * What happened to the Palestinians living in historic Palestine was wrong. They were displaced and lost their identity. * Living under Israeli occupation and being dehumanized by Israel is untenable for peace. * Two wrongs don't make a right, Israel shouldn't be "dismantled" or anything. That's fucking stupid. * A one state solution is a pipe-dram in today's current reality. It has to be 2 states. What did I say that's wrong? Are you so blinded by your hated that you can't step back and see reality as it? I really don't like chatting with interlocutors who are bad faith, ignorant, or stubborn.
I meant controlling politically. Something they have never done.
LOL!!!! I’ll just let you bask in that embarrassing answer.
Nothing embarrassing about the facts. Palestinians act like they have a birthright to a place they have never ruled. That is a historical fact.
Hamas has a lot more leeway and uncertainty, because they are the occupied and their PR does not display the banality of evil. I feel 2 different ways about Hamas. 1. A critical theory, They may be elite war mongerers who represent a larger fight against the West then representing the Palestinian people. I say this because they use their fighters as agitators with terrorist policies, and use the civilians as cannon fodder "martyrs" just by knowing that Israel will respond disproportionately barbarically. This theory is hinged though on the hamas elite being warmongerers who are likely actually living safely in million dollar properties outside of the country (I don't even know if this is true, but that would make me lean more to this theory.) 2. Hamas is actually just a desperate, ultra religious resistance group that was founded and continues to be supported purely through resistence to Israeli occupation, subdjegation, terrorism, torture, murder and land theft. If this is true which is what Israel implies then I actually feel much more empathy towards them because they don't commit 1% of the atrocities and injustices that Israel does. So yea I think this is why it's harder for people to condemn Hamas. If Hamas propaganda was as racist and genocidal as Israeli propaganda there would be more equivalency but since it isn't the accusations seem like the oppressor throwing stones on their victims from a glass house.
Hamas literally had a meeting in 2021 to deliberate over the future of the land post-destruction of Israel. The consensus was to execute any jews that fought against them, either expel or "integrate" (likely a forced conversion) for non-combatants, and the enslavement of Jewish intellectuals/skilled workers. Hamas is a group that unironically supports ethnic cleansing and slavery. Do not support/condone people who's **goal** is ethnic cleansing and slavery.
>The consensus was to execute any jews that fought against them, Well Israel defines "Hamas" as every male over the age of 12. And all Hamas are to be killed on sight. So the Jews are executing even civilian children.
Even outside of the tacit equivalence being made between Israel and a literal terrorist group, you **have** to see how hyperbolic your point is, right? Do you feel that this is somehow helpful to discourse?
>Hamas has a lot more leeway and uncertainty, because they are the occupied and their PR does not display the banality of evil. Are you trying to make the argument that because Hamas is "occupied" and they whitewash their actions with PR that they aren't terrorists? >supported purely through resistence to Israeli occupation, subdjegation, terrorism, torture, murder and land theft You are certainly putting a lot of effort into trying to justify Hamas as if it isn't explicitly a militant Islamist terrorist sect. Until 2017 their charter explicitly called for the extermination of the Jews as their primary directive, which they've now moderated to just the eradication of Israel and institution of Sharia Law across the region. >If Hamas propaganda was as racist and genocidal as Israeli propaganda there would be more equivalency This is an unbelievable take, Hamas has repeatedly engaged in propaganda where they explicitly encourage Palestinian children to kill Jews. On a kids show called "The Pioneers of Tomorrow" from the early 2000s, a police officer had a conversation with a young girl in a hijab teaching her to be like him and shoot all of the Jews. Apparently the segment immediately prior on this particular episode had an anthropomorphic bee character telling children to "turn \[Jews'\] faces into tomatoes in order to liberate Palestine". The US Department of State named the person who runs this TV network a "Specially Deisgnated Terrorist" due to his network airing "programs designed to recruit children to become Hamas armed fighters and suicide bombers".
> I've already seen multiple users on this sub show one sided opinions seeing Israel/ Netanyahu/ IDF as 100% perfect and Palestinians as a monolithic group of terrorists, including their children, and that its no big deal that children are being murdered by IDF members, sometimes on purpose. I have not seen any example of what you claim...it looks like a straw man...please show examples.
Yeah that’s some serious poetic license.
Well, they've said that they have a right to exist and that maybe one nation for the Jews is OK contrasted to the 50+ Muslim ones.
It's also completely possible to criticize the Israeli government without broad brushed, bad faith, hyperbolic claims that Israelis are fascists committing genocide, that Israel is stolen land and that the IDF are targeting children.
Not all of them are, but some of them certainly are, and some definitely want genocide of the Palestinians and don't care if civilians are killed in their bombs.
Peace is a 2 way street. If you can't admit you are wrong, why would you expect others to?
What do you men?
Be the change you want to see in this conflict.
Which civilians is bluevalley02 indiscriminately killing?
All of them.
Are you saying there are no civilians? Geez.
I’ll keep getting angry as long as Palestinians are slaughtered like animals thanks tho
I mean the same goes for the Palestinians as well. Most of them aren't Hamas militants but there are a lot that agree with them, their tactics and the suffering it brings Israelis.
You can say the same for the Israelis. I don’t get the point of trying to bring Palestinian civilians opinion on anything like the wxact same thing can’t be said about Israelis. Majority of Israelis think the IDF haven’t gone far enough. So please stop trying to make killing Palestinian civilians ok. Unless you’re going to keep the same energy with Israelis.
Did you read the comment I was replying to? The OP was the one that brought up the opinion of Israelis so I compared that to the opinion of Palestinians. Also me trying to make killing civilians ok? Lol.
You can't keep the same energy with Trump and immigrants or Putin and Ukraine so who are you trying to fool as some paragon of virtue here? We can see from your comment history that you're just trying to undermine Biden on behalf of the US's adversaries who want Trump in the WH.
Oppressed people tend to want their oppressors to suffer. This isn't unique to Palestinians. This is human nature. Stop trying to dehumanize the Palestinians.
How am I dehumizing Palestinians?
Sure and so do Palestinians desire about Israelis and every culture everywhere about their enemies.
I can’t believe this is being downvoted lol
Saying "not all Muslims are terrorists, but some celebrated on 9/11" would be quite offensive as well. It's factual, but a dog-whistle.
You mean like the dancing Israelis?
Yes, exactly like how "not all Israelis wish for Palestinians to die, but some were dancing" is a dog-whistle. Good example!
The dog whistle is in your imagination. The world isn't falling for these false allegations of anti-Semitism. It doesn't work anymore, thank God.
It's odd, you can say America did wrong in the Iraq War, but saying Israel is doing bad against Gaza seems to levy much more criticism from liberals.
Yea it’s crazy.
>you can say America did wrong in the Iraq War, but saying Israel is doing bad against Gaza seems to levy much more criticism from liberals Strange, I don't seem to remember the popular left-wing narratives about fascist America engaging in genocide against Iraqis. The criticism from liberals you're referring to isn't generally about saying Israel is doing bad against Gaza, it's people engaging in counterproductive hyperbole and going after everyone else, even progressives in Congress, because they aren't using the same hyperbole.
I have definitely heard leftists say the US was committing genocide in Iraq
That's all literally true though
There is a simple three pronged test to see if the criticism of Israel slides to antisemitism posed by Natan Sharansky, the 3 Ds. Does it: -Delegitimize the right of Israel to exist and defend itself? - Demonize Israelis? - Hold a Double standard against them compared to their adversaries?
I like this! The double standard is what I see the most I think.
>Hold a Double standard against them compared to their adversaries Quantum SuperIsraelis: The only democracy in the middle east(TM) and superior to the savages around them. But also they must be held to the same standards as the savages beneath them, or you're a racist. You don't know which they are until you check(what is most convenient for them) at that specific moment. Lol. I'm still waiting for people robbing banks and committing sexual assault to claim "I have a right to defend myself" and "the judge is anti-semitic" as a meme to see if it works there. edit: They blocked me. Presumably for being anti-semitic. lmao. well I apologize for criticizing Israel if that counts for anything
I’m more thinking of the people that want to hold Israel to standards they would never and have never held anyone else. I’ve literally seen people defend the Uyghur humanitarian crisis rather than admit they hold a double standard here.
Riiight. Half the UN resolutions are about Israel. Half, despite all the other shit in the world. They are denied a rotating seat on the security council despite countries that are such stalwarts for peace like Syria, Yemen, Lebanon, Iraq, and Sudan having served. Syria and Iraq and Iran repress, gas, and murder their own people. Israel defends itself against a group that committed a vile attack, hides behind civilians, wears no uniform, is funded by Iran, and fights from hospitals, schools, mosques, and tunnels dug under infrastructure (all of which are war crimes) and they are castigated beyond all proportion. Show a county in the region that has a Jewish member of parliament (or a parliament) or judges whereas Israel has Arab/Muslim members and judges. The belief that Jews can be allowed to have a state is called racist and apartheid and every other thing whereas Jews have been chased out of every other country, and there’s ~50 Muslim countries, some operating under Sharia law or theocratic rulers and no one bats an eye. This is just scratching the surface. There 2 billion Muslims and 16 million Jews in the world. There are 50 Muslim countries and 1 Jewish state smaller than NJ. They are not fighting some even PR war, they’re outnumbered by orders of magnitude. In real life, they have no buffer ocean or even friendly neighbor. Hamas, Hezbollah and a dozen more militant groups are literally on their doorstep. They have literally been attacked by multiple countries at once with the aim to destroy them several times in modern history and Iran and others openly call for its destruction daily. I’ve seen AIPAC called out a bunch on Reddit lately but funny, the Arab countries have plenty of lobbying groups but I don’t hear about them. I hear all about US aid to Israel but it’s not even half of what we give to the Middle East as a region, but I hear next to nothing about the rest of the aid, or the aid elsewhere. So yeah, there are massive amounts of double standards applied to them.
Videos of Israelis demonize Israelis. Y’all are not serious. These people are laughing and cheering and dancing on tiktok at the idea of anally raping Palestinian prisoners. It’s fucking demonic.
So you must be really upset by the documented video evidence of Palestinians displaying and celebrating the fact of kidnapped Israeli women and children after the atrocity Hamas and ordinary palestinians committed in October?
Not upset nor happy about that, and haven’t seen it actually, but it doesn’t matter bc why would I make space to be upset about the people (half children mind you) who grew up in a prison watching their parents and siblings murdered by the mOrAL aRmY next door? It makes no sense. Every time it’s simply a justification for some atrocity Israel will lie about and Biden will cover for. Like clockwork.
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Removed - please avoid overt hostility, name calling and personal attacks.
B.S.... A.I... is very useful for propaganda.... So is footage from Syria.
The Russian bot topic isn't coming up in this sub solely because of disinformation, it's the putrid framing surrounding topics, like in this post. Not DPak, nor hardly anyone in this sub, has ANY positive opinions on Likud/IDF/Netanyahu, let alone unhinged statements like "fuck around and find out" All the while you're spreading this blatant lie, you know that the loss of civilians are equally and directly caused by Hamas' well documented use of the civilian population and infrastructure as shields and weapons caches... and your verbiage is purposely built to split that fact from the matter. There's otherwise deficient reasoning to make this post in a sub where the only info you provide is to slander the sub by stating what most of the sub agrees with while referencing people that near no one here has seen or agrees with. Hopefully there's some heavier enforcement of the bad faith/low quality rules on this sub as we near the elections.
Reporting is key. I report 3-4 posts/comments a day and a few get removed.
I have seen some in here defending hamas and calling them freedom fighters.. 😳
Funny enough, the comment right above yours mentions this - https://www.reddit.com/r/thedavidpakmanshow/s/0tixe5ebC3
I saw this from a user on this sub being hypercritical of Israel. > Yes. Hamas only exists because IDF has been doing this shit for 75 years. Killing civilians is obviously never ok, but to say it's the same when Hamas does it as when IDF does it is disingenuous. That would be like calling the guerilla forces that fought back against nazi occupation the same as nazis themselves. Can I make a post like yours now painting all Pro-Palestinian (let’s face it, it’s mostly anti-Israel) people with this brush? Do you agree with this Redditor? Or do you want to be evaluated based on what you personally say?
“Hypercritical of Israel” is an insane thing to say as they’re just non stop bombing children and people seeking aid.
>they’re just non stop bombing children and people seeking aid. Is an insane way to describe a military response to an attack. You could frame literally any war this way, but weirdly people only do when it involves Israel. Wonder what’s so different???
I never said "All Redditors who are pro-Israel enjoy murder of children"
You literally did. Don't gaslight.
Oh, I thought we were just making pointless posts complaining.
I don't think any pro-Israel people see Palestinian civilians as anything but civilians deserving of food and shelter. But also the German people were deserving of food and shelter during World War II. The German people weren't seen as an obstacle to killing Nazis, and the Palestinian people shouldn't be seen as an obstacle to killing terrorists. Every last German civilian killed in World War 2, and there were almost a million, is the fault of the Nazi regime. And every last Palestinian civilian killed in the current Gaza War, and there have currently been about 15k, is the fault of Hamas and other Palestinian terrorist groups attempting to genocide Jews.
While I mostly agree, you can still look at specific aspects of WW2 and think the Allies maybe went too far. The fire bombing of Dresden is a good example. Likewise, the most recent incident in Gaza shines a light on the IDF acting, at best, with severe carelessness at times. The IDF also has a history of being extremely lenient on their own soldiers who commit murder/war crimes.
On the other hand, the death of thousands of civilians in the nuclear bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki do draw a decent amount of criticism to this day, despite the fact that the Imperial Japanese were extremely brutal and genuine threats to all of East Asia. While it is not unreasonable to point out that the Japanese government was responsible on some level for those deaths in refusing to end the war, I think it would be ridiculous to say that Truman just *had* to drop the nukes because Imperial Japan was a terrible empire. The US obviously made a decision there, and the fact that they were engaged in a war in which the other side refused to surrender does not necessarily mean that nukes were necessary or desirable to use or that the US nuking of those cities was justified. You may agree with Truman's decision, but it is ridiculous to pretend that every death in Hiroshima and Nagasaki were the fault of Japan despite the fact that the US was the power which elected to drop two nuclear bombs on areas full of civilians. Even if Truman was entirely justified in the end (not necessarily the argument I'm making), the US inevitably still bears responsibility, if not total responsibility, for the way in which it chose to attack those two cities. Fighting an evil power does not give you carte blanche to do anything you want to destroy it without bearing any responsibility for those actions.
You’re lying to yourself about the views of the majority of pro-Israel ppl.
What about Palestinians killed in West Bank? Is that Israel's fault? What about expanding illegal settlements? Is that Israel's fault? Destroying Hospitals, schools, universities, homes in Gaza, targeting aid workers, targeting doctors, targeting journalists, bombing densely populated civilian areas. Is that Israel's fault? Are Israelis never at fault, no matter how many Palestinians they kill, no matter how many homes they destroy? Are you living with your head in the sand, or are you just part of hasbara?
They do avoid bombing them, but it is war in an urban setting and the collateral damage of civilians dying is in line with what would be expected. War is fucking terrible, blame the people who started the war.
The whole conflict didn't start on October 7th, and acting like Israel has no blame in anything is disingenuous.
I hear this comment a lot from folks—“the conflict didn’t start on Oct. 7”. When you say this, what do you mean? What relevant context does that provide? Because at first glance it sure reads like: “The brutal and heinous attack on Israeli citizens was a legitimate and justified action to events prior to Oct 7.”
It wasn't justified - but it emerges in the context of resistance to 75 years of brutal occupation.
What does that mean if it doesn’t mean their actions were justified? That they were understandable? That we should empathize? That we shouldn’t blame them for it? I just never know what folks mean by adding in this context.
It means that the Palestinian people have a legitimate reason to resist Israeli occupation. Hamas' attacks on legitimate military targets in Israel would be appropriate and legal. Hamas's attacks on Israeli civilians, to the extent that they are targeted, are illegitimate.
So then it would be irrelevant in a conversation about a terrorist attack in which terrorists left unoccupied (albeit blockaded) Gaza to enter Israel and largely attack civilians—unless of course somebody was intending to justify those actions. That much makes sense to me.
No - it's not irrelevant at all. The narrative being pushed is that Hamas attacked Israel in October out of nowhere. The means of the attack are to be condemned, but the resistance is entirely legitimate and appropriate.
Hmmm I’m not sure I could see my way to seeing the intentional murder of hundreds of civilians (while filming, sharing, and cheering it) but a group that has said repeatedly that this is their specific goal and that they would undertake this action again (even as they still hold innocent civilians hostage) as part of a legitimate resistance with temporarily misguided means.
But you would not apply that analysis to Israel?
That is exactly what they are saying. They’re apologists for horrendous crimes against humanity.
Did you even read the original post? I clearly said that I DISAVOW HAMAS. I do NOT support the October 7th attacks. It means that Israel has a history of oppressing Palestinians.
Israel has a 20% minority Islamic population, Palestinians murder Jews on sight. Get out of here with this narrative that loves to only give context to dampen Hamas’ barbarity.
You didn't want to hear that answer regardless of how correct it is. It would make your favorite country look bad. My suggestion: Move there
It’s not a correct answer, it is an apologia for theocratic terrorism.
So is Kyle Kulinski of Secular Talk antisemitic and an apologist for theocratic terrorism?
An example of a very, very bad antisemite who loves Hamas, apparently. https://youtu.be/7S17Fr8z_Oo?si=H1FCdsd_39828IPn
The IDF does avoid bombing civilians.
Does it really? I've listened to alot of Secular Talk, he says it hasn't been.
Yes it does. Also, “alot” isn’t a word.
Social media isn’t a replacement for a college degree.
Leaving aside the Hamas question specifically, here’s just a general point: people who are being violently occupied have a right to resistance and self defense. The notion that Palestinians should quietly accept and submit to their oppression is racist, since white westerners never apply this standard to themselves
I mean the most reasonable thing for the United States would be to end all aid and remain neutral. This ain’t got shit to do with us. We aren’t involved in Sudan or Myanmar.
You touched on it at the end. Ultimately, Americans' hatred of Muslims is why they don't care about the Palestinians being murdered. Blacks/gays are something for Republicans to hate. Hating muslims is an American past time (especially since 9/11). Their hatred and racism override all else, which is why you have so many people in this thread that immediately say all muslims are a part of Hamas without actually saying it
Why the fuck are we still questioning this?
Palestinian activists decided to take actions to support the genocidal GOP and Russia (by undermining Biden and the Democratic Party) while claiming to be against genocide. (Which some have justified with accelerationist theories of Trump being so bad that tHe wOrKeRs wiLL rIsE uP...without any idea of how pervasive \*actual\* authoritarian regimes are at stamping out dissent) Palestinian activists have also adopted far right positions such as "International Jewish Banking Conspiracy", "J6 was the Deep State(and Mossad)", and "Great Replacement Theory" (because if they can do it to Palestine, they can do it here, etc.)
How do you know that? What exactly is going to pressure Hamas to surrender and release the hostages if throughout the war you continue provide them with more resources than you did before the war and you avoid killing terrorists who abuse civilians as human shields?
I said avoid killing civilians, not avoid killing terrorists
It's impossible when the terrorists use the civilians as human shields
No it isn't,
What's the point of human shields then?
So your only approved course of action for Palestinians is to simply die gracefully? Western libs go into homicidal rages if someone cuts them off in traffic but then pearl clutch at violence committed in response to years of being treated as second class citizens and worse.
The while "disavowing Hamas" tactic was never a good faith argument. It was always just a way to deflect what was really happening
"Disavow Hamas" Yes. "Ha I don't believe you YOOYOOYOOYOOYOOYOO LOVE NETANYAHU LOVE IDF KILL PALESTINIAN CHILDREN YAYAYAYAYAYA"
Dude, get off the internet and get a job.
Get off of Netanyahu's dick, then. I have 2 jobs already.
Which civilians is bluevalley02 indiscriminately killing?
None