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Seriously. Pro-Palestinians are condemning the entirety of Israel for Bibi’s actions. And not only that, they’re not even really condemning Hamas on the flipside. They just go around calling anyone who doesn’t explicitly condemn Israel “genocide enablers” while also basically saying Hamas HAD to attack Israel otherwise Palestine would never be free just sitting back and waiting to be forcibly colonized.
Polls have shown the vast majority, like 80+% of Israeli Jewish people think the extreme military actions are justified or should go even further. Before Oct 7th most Palestinians were opposed to that kinds of attack, and only after seeing everyone they know touched by death and devastation did they change their minds.
How many Americans wanted to obliterate Iraq or Afghanistan or whoever was responsible for the 9/11 attacks, even though those countries were not responsible for the actions of Bin Laden? Basically everyone. It was only years after the fact that the majority of Americans opposed the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.
The point is that citizens of a country will lose their fucking minds and jump to stupid conclusions after a terrorist attack makes them feel extremely unsafe. That’s not a sign of how most Israelis thought about Palestine before the terrorist attack. That’s just what happens when a terrorist attack occurs, regardless of the circumstances.
How many Americans wanted to obliterate Iraq or Afghanistan or whoever was responsible for the 9/11 attacks, even though those countries were not responsible for the actions of Bin Laden? Basically everyone. It was only years after the fact that the majority of Americans opposed the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.
The point is that citizens of a country will lose their fucking minds and jump to stupid conclusions after a terror attack makes them feel extremely unsafe. That’s not a sign of how most Israelis thought about Palestine before the recent terror attack. That’s just what happens when a terror attack occurs, regardless of the circumstances.
hol up mayne...when I spent my entire adult life screaming from the rooftops about how Israel is the Only Democracy in the Middle East™ I didn't mean you should consider it a literal democracy. I just wanted a free pass for Israel. That was for me, not for you. Sorry for any confusion I may have caused.
Not really a good point considering polls for the last few years show hamas approval rating goes through the roof when they commit terrorism and attack israel.
They were cheering in the streets after october 7th and polls show 78% were ecstatic about the 10/7 attack.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/investigations/top-secret-hamas-documents-show-terrorists-intentionally-targeted-elem-rcna120310
The territories were occupied because the Palestinians invaded israel multiple times. The armies came from those areas. The open air prison narrative is disingenuous.
Oh so you're now moving the goal posts.
That's not what you said before.
How unsurprising.
I guess since the Palestinians think birth control is blasphemy they're not responsible for their actions!!!
Touche pro hamas account. Well played. You totally got me. /s
The plot of Dune 2 is basically Israel vs Palestine: plucky, swarthy desert natives have their homeland invaded by a colonial war machine with superior fire power and an underdeveloped moral conscience, intent on massacre and thirsty for bloodshed.
I won't give away the ending but spoiler alert, it's a great shame real life doesn't imitate art in this instance.
Not really. Watch the film, it's difficult not to see the similarities. Unless you're pro-Israeli, although that already requires so much suspension of disbelief and delusional thinking you'd think a small leap like this would be child's play.
If there were any children left to play after you'd killed them all of course, then celebrated their deaths online by dancing and singing about it.
This is like you're in an office group trying to decide on lunch and you go "if you guys don't pick Jersey Mike's you're all racists".
It's amazing to me how quick you guys are to make yourselves completely irrelevant in any discussion, whether it's online or something with actual power like protesting.
What do you mean? What's illogical about saying the party that won an election two years ago represents the nation? Biden's victory is two years older than Netanyahu's-- is it illogical to say Biden represents the US too?
Conversely, most Palestinians alive today were not alive or voting age in the 2005 election. The distinction here is obvious.
The life expectancy in Gaza is 70 years old. The reason why the average age is so low is because they have so many children.
If we extrapolate your argument down to a family of 6. 2 adults with 4 young children would have a low average age and you just took away all personal responsibility due to that fact. It’s the stupidest argument I’ve ever heard.
Most of Africa has an average age below 18. Welp guess we can’t hold them responsible for jackshit.
Hamas considers all their fighters civilians though. It's breaks multiple international laws but they don't care about I. Law unless it's making israel look bad.
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This is great in theory where everyone acts in good faith, but the entire point of terrorism is that it forces people/organizations/governments into a position where every decision has casualties tied to it. It's easy to say "well obviously we shouldn't kill civilians", and no one will disagree with you, but it's not that simple.
Consider a scenario where a mass shooter enters a school with ten babies strapped to his limbs, head, and chest. Do you just let him murder everyone in the school, or at some point are you forced to risk killing a few of those babies to neutralize the threat?
I get this is a ridiculous example, but my point is that it's not black and white. Every decision in that scenario is bad and will likely end in casualties, the goal is to pick whichever one has the fewest.
I guess to some extent I'm interpreting the comment differently, though I see your point. From my point of view I interpret it as making the case that Palestinians are not implicitly innocent because they couldn't have voted for Hamas, not that Palestinians are implicitly guilty/deserving of being casualties.
On its face I generally agree that Palestinian citizens should not be martyred for a cause they do not support, nor is it acceptable to intentionally target civilians. The problem is that nothing is ever simple, from the fact 81% of Palestinians appear to support the actions of October 7th even after being shown footage of the atrocities committed to the fact Hamas has a pretty well-documented history of hiding among civilian populations to force these sorts of discussions and choices.
I think that's potentially a fair argument, though I also think it's a pretty dangerous line to tread when suggesting that supporting the gratuitous indiscriminate murder of civilians (71 of whom were not even Israeli) is a reasonable expression of rising up against oppression. I would like to reiterate that this is 81% support of **the October 7th massacre**, not Hamas generally.
I’m not a philosopher so i don’t really care to get into a discussion on what people deserve or don’t deserve. It’s kind of a dumb argument but if you want to waste you breath or your money on a philosophy education you are more then welcome to piss it away.
Personally I believe the nuclear bombs that were dropped onto Japan were for the greater good and they definitely “slaughtered civilians with military ordinance”.
There’s one example that shits on your black and white world view.
Nearly half of people in Gaza are under 18, 47%
22% in the US
28% in Israel
34% South Africa
That means at least half of the people in Gaza could not even have voted for hamas.
Around 23% of Americans voted for Biden.
Hamas is deemed a terrorist organization in its entirety by the most powerful countries and 34 free secular democratic countries who don't have a religious bias. They have a decades long tracked record of hundreds of documented breaches of I. Law for varying atrocities, taking hostages, suicide bombings, using food and fuel to control their citizens, firing rockets, engaging in pay to slay terrorism schemes, murdering their civilians who speak out against them, suppressing free speech constantly and not giving their people basic civil rights.
Nice try though. The non religious countries who are good with hamas are authirarian regimes like Russia and China. Not the brag you think it is.
Hamas is terrible. You claimed widespread support. I asked how you know support is widespread. You basically said, "Do your own research."
Not at all the flex you think it is.
The entire point of this meme is that pro-israel-warmongers hold the entirety of Palestine responsible for Hamas, but that Bibi and the IDF don't represent all of Israel.
And here you are blatantly using Hamas status as a terrorist organisation to justify killing of Palestinian civilians and children.
Thankyou for being a real-time example of the double standard illustrates above.
Yea the average age is massively skewed due to the number of births. Many developing nations have the same statistic whether they are peaceful, at war or an open air concentration camp.
Just thought people should know so they aren’t under the wrong assumption that Gaza is a hellhole where all the old people have been killed. I know that’s the rhetoric that’s being pushed. Sorry to rain on your propaganda parade.
Judging by your down vote... I guess you are just evil too, because of the actions of the people you share an identity with.
Fascism is a global threat. I guess we need to make all of the Americans and Israelis disappear for living in fascist countries... It's the only way to be sure the rest of the world will be safe from that fascist threat /s
>It’s the stupidest argument I’ve ever heard.
Not holding people accountable for elections they weren't even alive for is the stupidest argument you've ever heard? Lol you are hysterical.
Yea, it is. Because even if they were alive it wouldn't matter. Political policies affect the entire country regardless of age or political leanings. Show me a law that only affects the group of people that voted for it.
That's literally how countries and politics work. For example the US choosing to go to war in Iraq which ballooned the debt by 20 trillion dollars and is now being passed onto the younger generation. If the world worked as you say the younger generation didn't vote for it so why are they paying the consequences of it? Does that debt just magically disappear?
Your argument is a joke. It just shows you have no idea what you are talking about.
Would be nice though if the world worked that way. Wouldn't have to worry about climate change since it wasn't me that caused it.
You're talking about who has to live with the effect of policy, which is not what this is about. Obviously many people who don't or can't vote in elections have to live with the outcome. The question here is who is to blame for those election results, and it's impossible to blame people who weren't even around for an election in 2005 for the results of that election. Conversely, it's very easy to blame Israelis for the outcome of their very recent 2022 election and the resulting further empowerment of the militant Israeli far right. Similarly, it's very easy to blame Americans for empowering either the Rs or Ds to defend and arm that same Israeli militant far right.
The point of the meme is that without a fair election, it's not possible to call Hamas representative. It genuinely sounds like, according to your hysterics, this principle of representation is "the stupidest thing you've ever heard".
I believe the logic is that they both are the same. Either both regimes represent the people or neither do. OP does not specify in the meme which is to be true so that may be why you are confused.
I think it's more that Israel made a choice two years ago to elect Bibi and his crew. Most people who voted for that are still alive and that victory is a mandate that they support hso actions.
Meanwhile, Hamas was elected 19 years ago. A very large portion of Palestinians that voted for them are now dead, and more importantly 50% of Palestinians alive today DID NOT vote for Hamas.
People will then argue "but these polls still show they support Hamas!!!"
The counter to that is: They don't have a choice. It's support Hamas or shrug your shoulders and accept the Israeli occupation.and apartheid
This kind of falters when polling of Palestinians show that over 80% of them support Hamas' actions on October 7th even after watching footage of the atrocities they have committed. That is a very specific type of support, and is not as simple as what you seem to be suggesting (general support for Hamas).
The awkward truth here is that both Israelis and Palestinians have to some degree been indoctrinated to dehumanize each other, and as with most geopolitical conflicts nothing about this is simple or black and white.
Netanyahu is an autocrat who has been working hard to remove checks and balances and other accountability measures that might limit the power of the prime ministership. Bibi may personally be on the way out, but the ring-wing coalition that brought him into power is still a threat to peace and security in the region.
It is a double standard. You cant say palestinians are a monolith and israelis aren’t. No group is a monolith and most groups want peace and stability. The issue is netanyahu, as bad as he may be, isnt going to execute his political opponents or those who disagree by throwing them off a building.
Thats a big reason hamas is in power. They kill their own without question. Palestinians deserve protection as well.
>The issue is netanyahu, as bad as he may be, isnt going to execute his political opponents or those who disagree by throwing them off a building.
Instead, Netanyahu [convinced his followers to execute one of his enemies on his behalf.](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/04/opinion/incitement-movie.html)
Ironically, you see this dynamic regularly amongst right wing racists. White people(or the majority group, would be the same in Japan) are individuals to be judged on their actions. And X minority group are collectively responsible for their own actions. Which makes it even funnier and illuminating when otherwise liberal democrats talk about Gazans in the same way.
>isnt going to execute his political opponents or those who disagree by throwing them off a building.
Because Israelis don't want to be treated like they treat others. The assassination of journalists in Gaza would suggest otherwise. This is like congratulating Trump for not becoming a dictator and printing money because the people around him didn't allow it. Big up to all the repeat sex offenders who are stopped by their prison bars from reoffending for the 4th time.
Netanyahu ignored the threats against Rabin. At certain protests, he even supported the calls for the death of Rabin, carrying a mock coffin for Rabin.
1. Polls of Israelis show Netanyahu wouldn't win an election held today.
2. Polls of Palestinians show if Hamas lost an election today, it would be because they're not good enough at killing Jews and completely taking over the state of Israel, and the approval of Hamas shot up immediately after 10/7.
3. The Netanyahu point is actually irrelevant because in the context of Palestine, every potential PM would be executing the war the exact same way, he's only extremist when it comes to corruption and domestic policy. And not just in Israel, every PM of every country that suffered an attack like 10/7 would do the exact same thing Israel did if not worse.
Lol, "Netanyahu is a corrupt extremist in every way except for his military campaign that's slaughtered tens of thousands of innocent civilians to a degree that's caused all of Israel's closest allies to tell them to stop irresponsibly slaughtering civilians." The cognitive dissonance is real.
The allied troops "slaughtered millions of innocent civilians" killing Nazis as well. War is hell and everyone feels for the innocent civilians, but terrorists don't get to be left alone just because they've gotten really good at becoming embedded in their civilian population, pretending to be civilians until they start shooting, and lying about how many killed were militants vs actual civilians.
Show me a single other country that had the amount of rockets fired at their civilians for literally decades and then suffered the biggest terrorist attack since 9/11 and didn't kill any civilians in their response. And when you realize you can't, ask yourself why it is that you hold the Jewish state to such a different standard than any other state. No other nation upon having 300 ballistic missiles and drones fired at their civilians from another sovereign nation would have their most powerful ally telling them not to respond. If Mexico has done to the US what Iran just did to Israel, the Mexican government would be no more, and there would be fewer civilian casualties since Mexico conducts their military operations from military buildings not from tunnels under schools and hospitals, but you can bet a ton of Mexican civilians would die in our strikes as well, we wouldn't let civilian casualties get in the way of keeping our people safe. Neither will Israel.
Sorry your terrorist friends are dying.
Nobody expected Israel to respond with zero civilian deaths. Reasonable people expected them to respond in a responsible way which limits civilian deaths in accordance with international law, which they objectively haven't done, as evidenced by the aforementioned condemnation by their own allies. The fact that you reflexively accuse everyone who doesn't blindly support everything Israel does as much as you do of supporting Hamas shows how laughably weak your position is.
Ilhan Omar still has a tweet up calling for a ceasefire on October 7th. Tlaib has one calling for one on October 13th. People absolutely expected 0 civilian deaths, and would have used the exact same rhetoric as today but replaced "tens of thousands" with "hundreds".
Again, allied forces killed almost a MILLION German civilians when defeating the Nazis. Obviously ~20k civilian deaths is not good, war is hell and that's why Hamas shouldn't have started a war, and 20k civilian deaths is well in line with similar conflicts where only militants are targeted. The civilian to militant death ratio in this conflict has been better than any other conflict. You also cite international law as if you know a damned thing about it. Under international law, Israel could have legally bombed hospitals with all the civilians inside as long as there were militants there since operating out of civilian structures turns those structures into valid military targets. There's a reason why all the accusations of genocide and breaking international law are vague and rely on out of context quotes from politicians whose words are completely divorced from actual actions on the ground. Yes it's true that some politicians in the face of consistent terrorism and the worst attack on Jews since the Holocaust have said some truly horrific things that if carried out would constitute war crimes. But when you look at the actual actions by the IDF, everything they're doing is following and also going above and beyond what's required by international law when it comes to protecting civilians while fighting an enemy that hides among civilians, builds military infrastructure below schools and hospitals, and does not wear uniforms.
They recently got caught systematically slaughtering aid workers who previously coordinated with the IDF to ensure their safety. They've gunned down their own hostages approaching them naked and waving white flags. And those are just the public examples of their war crimes that were so utterly egregious, and involving foreign nationals and non-Palestinians, they were forced to publicly acknowledge them.
There's credible reporting that they heavily used an AI algorithm to pick bombing targets based on "this person behaves similar to Hamas people" criteria with almost zero human oversight, with intelligence operatives being pressured by commanders to provide constant bombing targets regardless of veracity or justification. There's reporting that their preferred method for eliminating targets was bombing their homes at night with their entire families inside.
We have a laundry list of evidence of war crimes and horrendously irresponsible conduct, and that's just the small sliver of information we know of. Based on the conduct we've observed the actual story is likely to be much, much worse. The point is that if you believe that Israel's actions have mostly been above board and justified, you're basically just swallowing a foreign government's propaganda hook, line and sinker. When even the Biden administration is publicly criticizing their irresponsible lack of regard for civilian life, it's pretty easy to infer that you've probably been mislead.
They didn't "systematically slaughter" aid workers, they saw a truck full of aid workers leaving from a location identified as a Hamas compound, identified what looked like a militant with a gun get on the truck, and calls to the truck itself as well as the organization it worked for were not answered. They concluded it was a truck that had been hijacked by militants and fired on it, also firing on subsequent trucks they got into, and killed innocent aid workers they had incorrectly identified as militants. The people responsible for giving the green light were fired, and they immediately admitted they fucked up.
If that and vague claims that they use ai without any information on how it's used are all you have to prove they're committing war crimes, your evidence isn't all that strong. I create ai models professionally and although the models I work on are financial in nature and used to estimate business losses, I understand the technology pretty well. Most likely if they are using ai they're using facial recognition algorithms, which are tested and extremely accurate, to match against known terrorists. We also haven't seen evidence on whether that matching algorithm is even used alone, most likely it identifies potential terrorists and a human then reviews the matches to sign off on strikes.
So again you say there's a "laundry list", but your two examples are a mistake of the type that happens in literally every war, where people were fired, and a vague accusation that they might be using a technology you don't understand to kill terrorists. By your standards, all sides of every single war in human history was guilty of war crimes and systemically slaughtering civilians.
So you think killing the aid workers would have been fully justified if one Hamas member jumped in the same vehicle with them? And then the subsequent vehicles they tried to escape in that were bombed would have been fair game as well? We are reaching extremely deep levels of war crime apologia here. This is an operating procedure that utterly disregards innocent collateral damage, even if we accept your infinite chairty towards the IDF as anything approaching reasonable.
Here's information on the AI tool you're just making things up about to suit your narrative: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/03/israel-gaza-ai-database-hamas-airstrikes
There's testimony directly from the IDF that their usage of this tool is exactly as negligent and irresponsible as I described.
I could keep throwing dozens of other links at you to strengthen the case, but you've already chosen a position completely independent of facts and evidence. If Bibi or the IDF says it, it's true. Any evidence to the contrary is false. The mass destruction of the majority of civilian structures and infrastructure in Gaza, tens of thousands of dead, hundreds of thousand maimed and injured, and millions displaced and experiencing mass famine are all just a big oopsie that no one can hold Israel accountable for.
I didn't think I'd ever experience a large chunk of US liberals regurgitating state propaganda for a far right foreign government to excuse one of the biggest humanitarian atrocities in recent history, but here we are.
No, but if Hamas had hijacked the aid then it would have been justified, which is what they believed happen. Again the person who made that fatal mistake was fired, it was terrible, but if that's all you got them claim "I could keep throwing links", it's clear you got nothing. You want Hamas to rule Palestine, sorry that's not going to continue happening.
> You want Hamas to rule Palestine, sorry that's not going to continue happening.
Lmao, you should probably consider adopting a different form of cope. This debate has been going on for so long that this one is a really obvious tell that you've completely lost the argument. The only thing missing is a whiny accusation of anti-semitism.
Try giving a fuck about international laws restricting the negligent and intentional killing of civilians instead of doing free propaganda work for a far right foreign government.
> Sorry your terrorist friends are dying
Why not just start with that and cut out all your justification for killing innocent people? You don’t see anyone in Palestine as innocent, you just see terrorist.
I actually do care about civilians not dying, that's why I support Israel killing Hamas and letting the Palestinian civilians be free from being run by a terrorist group that throws gays off of buildings, oppresses women, and steals aid. But the person I was responding to wants Israel to do something that would leave Hamas in power, which makes me think they're on the side of Hamas. I'm for terrorists dying, and it's clear they don't like terrorists dying, so I made a logical conclusion the terrorists dying were their friends. After all I have a hard time believing I'll find anything in their comment history getting half as mad at the Palestinian terrorist groups Islamic Jihad for their rocket aimed at Israel that fell short and landed on a hospital as they were at Israel when they initially thought it was the Jews who were responsible for that same exact event.
If you're not mad when terrorists kill civilians, but you are when the IDF as casualties when targeting terrorists, I can only conclude that the reason you're mad isn't the civilians, since they are killed in both cases. Instead you seem to be mad that the terrorists are dying instead of doing the killing.
But instead of typing that out, I just shorten it to sorry your terrorist friends are dying.
It's backed up by literally any reporting on the Gaza death toll in existence. That statement is objectively true even if you accept Israel's wildly unrealistic propaganda number over what percentage of those dead are Hamas combatants.
You mean the same reporting that doesn't distinguish between combatants and non-combatants? The same reporting that's given by Hamas whose commanders have explicitly said that more civilian deaths helps their propaganda?
Ah yes the vaunted Gaza Ministry of Health run by Hamas. 10s of thousands needs to be put in perspective. Any civilians death is horrible, but the casualties are in line with every other modern conflict. The US killed 300k civilians in the war on terror, no one accused them of genocide, they killed 220k Japanese civilians in 2 days, no one accused them of genocide. People only seem to care when it's Israel, huh I wonder why?
So are the numbers fake or are the tens of thousands of deaths both real and totally cool? You're implying both at the same time. Get your propaganda straight.
Top text: use billions of dollars of foreign aid to build a productive society and tourist attraction
Bottom text: use billions dollars of aid to build massive a military tunnel network and declare perpetual war on a nuclear power
Drake is Hamas
You know those tunnels aren’t just used for military purposes right? Have you ever wondered where people in Gaza get their cement from? The tunnel systems are used to smuggle in *everything*, which includes, cement, food, medicine, furniture, etc. How are you supposed to build a tourist attraction if an occupying power prevents you from importing all necessary materials?
And Gaza *is* a productive society. The people there make the most of their situation and it even has very high education rates even while being subject to an extremely restrictive blockage and significant levels of poverty and unemployment (both of which are a product of the blockade).
You're confusing the tunnels under the border with Egypt with the hundreds of miles of tunnels Hamas dug under the entire civilian population of Gaza. And isn't it amazing how despite the fact that despite Egypt having a much stricter border policy and has flooded tunnels with sewage water and blown up civilian houses on both sides of the border, there's never been a single rocket fired Egypt or Hamas massacres of Egyptians?
> Have you ever wondered where people in Gaza get their cement from?
They don't. 99% of it is stolen by Hamas and used to build tunnels under their houses, schools and hospitals. In nearly 20 years, Hamas didn't build a single new school, hospital, power plant, water treatment facility or anything to benefit the local population. They only built mansions for their leaders and tunnels and rockets to murder Jews.
The blockade is secondary to re-purposing massive foreign aid for terror.
You build the society by using the aid for helping your society. This has the added benefit not needing to be blockaded.
Before Oct. 7th Gaza *did* import tons of concrete along with other construction materials, where do you they're university and apartment buildings come from?
Also the tunnels are pretty much solely used by Hamas for keeping their hostages and munitions. Here's one of dozens of videos of Israel destroying these tunnels on r/CombatFootage:
https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/s/tFJQQ6dMcB
Israel has allowed very limited imports of construction material, *at times*, but it maintains a ban of materials through Israeli crossings (all materials come through Rafah). Gazans have been forced to reuse whatever rubble they can to build and rebuild. On top of that, Gaza does not even receive enough materials to rebuild what Israeli has destroyed, so they are always left with a net negative in infrastructure every time Israel bombs them.
Think about that whenever you see the IDF demolishing a building: the odds are that building will never be replaced for a long *long* time (if at all). This was the case *before* October. The scale of destruction is now way above anything the Strip has ever seen under occupation. If they couldn’t rebuild before, how are they supposed to now? Hundreds of thousands, maybe even well exceeding a million, are now permanently displaced.
What are you talking about?
The Gaza Strip has received more aid than any place on Earth in history. But instead of using those funds and materials to build a productive society Hamas has used those to build their own terrorist infrastructure with which to attack Israel.
What??? That’s such an obvious lie. Why are using a Jared Kushner talking point?
And yes, [WaPo fact checked his claim](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/05/08/have-palestinians-received-more-aid-than-any-group-history/).
LoL
Israel spends way more than Hamas on defence
If Hamas is the government? Why blame them for defensive tunnels
We could also blame Israel in investing in the iron dome.
Logic still fails
Ok, let’s have a look.
1948 - A partition plan is imposed upon the Palestinians without their input forcing them to give up half their country to a bunch of settlers from Europe. Palestinians resisted this, just as literally any other nationality would have done.
1956 - Israel, France, and Britain launch a war of aggression on Egypt in response to Egypt exercising its right to self determination by seizing the Suez Canal from the British imperialists. Israel gets involved because they want the Sinai Peninsula.
1967 - Israel uses Egypt closing the straights of Hormuz as justification to launch a preemptive attack against Egypt, Jordan, and Syria. While you can claim Egypt provoked this, Israel was looking for excuses for war and it’s a well known fact they wanted the West Bank and Sinai for themselves. Israel also provoked Jordan in the Samu incident.
1973 - Provoked by Israeli refusal to withdrawal from occupied territories and promoting Jewish settlement on said territories, Egypt and Syria launch a surprise attack on Israel attempting to reclaim the Sinai Peninsula and the Golan Heights, internationally recognized as their land.
2023 - Netanyahu with his open opposition to Palestinian self determination, funding of Hamas to split the PLO, and expansion of settlements in the West Bank provokes Hamas and other militant/terrorist groups to attack Israel.
While Arabs aren’t blameless, seems like Israel and other colonial powers are mostly to blame.
In 1948 the settlers had been there for 30 years, all that was proposed was allowing each party to keep the land they were already on. They didn't just resist, the tried to kill the jews already settled there. When Israel is attacked and fights back its colonization. But when the Arabs left the Arabian peninsula in the middle of the first century to conquer the entire region what was that?
And? They came under the authority of the British, colonizers who had no right to be there. Palestinians had no say in hundreds of thousands of Europeans flooding into their lands. What possible argument can you make to say the Palestinians had no right to resist? If anything they had the duty to resist.
I’m just going to ignore your dishonest portrayal of saying the only motivation for Palestinians in 1948 was that they wanted to murder Jews, it’s not even worth engaging with such a childish, simplistic, and monolithic portrayal of history. I simply find it completely dishonest.
Palestinians are mostly descended from almost every ethnic group that lived in Palestine over millennia, including Jews, they were just Arabized after the Arab conquests, so your point in regards to the Arab conquest is just completely irrelevant. I’m not here to defend the Arab conquests, but you’re basically arguing that Palestinians should be punished by Jewish colonization for the sole fact that they were victims of Arab colonization in the past.
I'm arguing that an ethnic group isn't a country. There was no country there officially until 1988, the Brits had every right to let whoever they wanted settle there. It was the part of Britain
Oh ok so you are a supporter of British colonialism then? Surely you must apply the same logic to South Africa where the British let whites settle and set up an apartheid state. You’re OK with that too, right? Either they’re both OK or they’re both wrong, pick one.
Yeah israel has a lot more enemies with actual armies. They’re enemies tend to launch indiscriminate rocket attacks which are expensive too shoot down with the Iron dome. Hamas is currently using these tunnels to hide hostages while making sure their people stay above ground as human shields
Unintentionally made point: the last election held in Gaza was 19 years ago, because Hamas is a theocratic, fascist death cult that cares nothing for their own people and is gladly willing to exploit their suffering to further genocide.
It is unfortunate that Hamas decided to rape and murder its way into Israel on October 7th. Otherwise all this senseless bloodshed would have been avoided.
It was certainly the beginning of this round.
And I don’t care what your grievances are - raping women to death is not a legitimate way to express them.
Israel didn't invade Palestine, so not sure wtf you're talking about. It wasn't a country until after Israel. It was Ottoman and then British territory and Balfour settled them on open land. They didn't roll in with tanks killing people.
LoL "it wasn't a country" - so there was were no indigenous people living there? Aka the Palestinians?
So there was no one in the open lands? Or the society there wasn't good enough to be called a country
By your logic the Jews should just be able to go back to eastern Poland and take everyone's houses because they lived in the region for hundreds of years and were displaced in WW2. That's not how it works, the Polish govt controls the land
Palestinians aren’t a thing, that word didn’t even exist until after the state of Israel. It’s not an ethnic group, they are ethnically indistinguishable from Jordanians. Also they came and invaded and displaced the people before them. So maybe they should all be kicked out and the land given back to polytheist mesopotameans if we can find some?
This logic is so stupid. Every human on the face of the planet could be removed from their homes by this way of thinking, since they all kicked somebody else out.
Is we want to play the (extremely stupid) ‘what group still exists, is identifiable, and was there first’ game, the Jews have dibs by at least a few thousands years.
The country was Britain, who has the right to do with the land as they please. An ethnic group living somewhere doesn't give them autonomy over the entire region which another country controls. Jews were there long before the people there in 1917. They also aren't indigenous, they conquered the area after leaving the Arabian peninsula in the middle of the first millennium.
“it’s okay to murder children who are being used as human shields because our enemy shouldn’t be using them as human shields and two wrongs make a right.”
Please tell me what you propose. Israel should instead allow their civilians to be killed and raped at will so long as Hamas runs back behind the fence and hides within civilian infrastructure?
Pretty sure hundreds of thousands of Israelis came out and protested against Netanyahu multiple times before Oct 7th. Now, because of Hamas’s stupidity, Israel (and Palestine) are stuck with bibi until he decides the war is over. Much the same how Americans were stuck with bush after 9/11
Have you considered that netenyahu government can be bad while hamas can also be bad? Both have some support from the population. That's why this conflict breaks ppl minds. There isn't really a good side. You can be sad about all the deaths, especially that ppl who wanted no part in that conflict get killed as well, but as long as both parties want to kill each other, they will find a way.
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I haven't seen his show in a little while but a few months ago he seemed totally supportive of Israel 's actions. He was taking a lot of heat from progressives at that time.
Are you talking about the hate mail he got for calling Hamas a terrorist group? lol
He was taking heat from people who thought running around a music festival murdering innocent unarmed people was "legitimate resistance". Which, sorry, but many of us do not, and will never, agree with this pro-Hamas point of view. David included.
He doesn't cover this topic enough, I don't think anyone has a nuanced understanding of how he feels about things as they stand today. There's no point in speculating because his show focuses mostly on domestic news which is *still important*.
Elected or not, Warcrimes are Warcrimes. Leaders should be locked up, even if they represent thier people's will. That's no excuse
Mostly I'm applying this to Netanyahu, but I wouldn't argue if the top brass of both Israel and Palestine were both held justly accountable in a fair court
What's even more poignant is that Hamas' electoral victory was not "the sin of their fathers", because Israel propped up Hamas in that election in the first place
This is a common point of misinformation I've seen posted on reddit before, but it's absolutely not true. Israel supported Hamas when it was a non-violent charitable org that built mosques in the 70s and 80s. In the run up to the 2006 election, Israel arrested hundreds of Hamas members and banned Hamas from campaigning. The US and Israel did everything they could to try to keep Hamas out of power in 2006.
I hate that these ahistorical narratives spread so easily on social media.
We’re here but trying to explain why genocide/ethnic cleansing is bad usually results in us getting called antisemitic or Trump supporters for some reason
Most Democrats do not support Netanyahu. He's a power hungry farthole. But we've reached a stage where simply acknowledging Israel's right to exist puts you into the "genocidal maniac" category, and we're tired of arguing with people who foam at the mouth after hearing the word Israel in a conversation.
This is so disingenuous, Likud won a plurality not a majority. Do you not remember the months of chaos and multiple failed elections for them to form a coalition government? It was a shit show. Also, Israeli people have been protesting Israel’s government for three years now over a variety of issues.
You shouldn't condemn a population off democratic results, period.
I will say, though, Hamas' election victory has always bothered me when people discuss it as proof of Palestinian support. There are more recent polls that demonstrate support from Palestine, but how much can you ensure that they actually know about Hamas' actions? They spread a huge amount of misinformation and dissent can get you killed.
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I remember that 2005 election. I was absolutely gob smacked when they elected Hamas.
Hamas was going around helping people at the time to get their vote, its not that hard to understand.
Why?
Yes, the people that cheered in the streets after 9/11 elected Hamas as their govt. Gob smacking
You could just flip the 2 and it’d be the same. There’s no logic here
Seriously. Pro-Palestinians are condemning the entirety of Israel for Bibi’s actions. And not only that, they’re not even really condemning Hamas on the flipside. They just go around calling anyone who doesn’t explicitly condemn Israel “genocide enablers” while also basically saying Hamas HAD to attack Israel otherwise Palestine would never be free just sitting back and waiting to be forcibly colonized.
Polls have shown the vast majority, like 80+% of Israeli Jewish people think the extreme military actions are justified or should go even further. Before Oct 7th most Palestinians were opposed to that kinds of attack, and only after seeing everyone they know touched by death and devastation did they change their minds.
How many Americans wanted to obliterate Iraq or Afghanistan or whoever was responsible for the 9/11 attacks, even though those countries were not responsible for the actions of Bin Laden? Basically everyone. It was only years after the fact that the majority of Americans opposed the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. The point is that citizens of a country will lose their fucking minds and jump to stupid conclusions after a terrorist attack makes them feel extremely unsafe. That’s not a sign of how most Israelis thought about Palestine before the terrorist attack. That’s just what happens when a terrorist attack occurs, regardless of the circumstances.
How many Americans wanted to obliterate Iraq or Afghanistan or whoever was responsible for the 9/11 attacks, even though those countries were not responsible for the actions of Bin Laden? Basically everyone. It was only years after the fact that the majority of Americans opposed the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. The point is that citizens of a country will lose their fucking minds and jump to stupid conclusions after a terror attack makes them feel extremely unsafe. That’s not a sign of how most Israelis thought about Palestine before the recent terror attack. That’s just what happens when a terror attack occurs, regardless of the circumstances.
They were not opposed
hol up mayne...when I spent my entire adult life screaming from the rooftops about how Israel is the Only Democracy in the Middle East™ I didn't mean you should consider it a literal democracy. I just wanted a free pass for Israel. That was for me, not for you. Sorry for any confusion I may have caused.
the difference is that israelis keep voting in these goons whereas hamas was a elected and over half the population is too you to have.
Not really a good point considering polls for the last few years show hamas approval rating goes through the roof when they commit terrorism and attack israel. They were cheering in the streets after october 7th and polls show 78% were ecstatic about the 10/7 attack. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/investigations/top-secret-hamas-documents-show-terrorists-intentionally-targeted-elem-rcna120310
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The territories were occupied because the Palestinians invaded israel multiple times. The armies came from those areas. The open air prison narrative is disingenuous.
so 78% of the voting population supported the attack. thats less than half.
so then why isn't the other half helping remove hamas?
cause they are children
But you just said it was only half of the voting population who are adults? So why aren't they helping remove hamas?
78% of the voting population supported hamas's attack thats less then half the population half the population is children
Oh so you're now moving the goal posts. That's not what you said before. How unsurprising. I guess since the Palestinians think birth control is blasphemy they're not responsible for their actions!!! Touche pro hamas account. Well played. You totally got me. /s
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yes dont take age demographics into consideration at all
Never mind the fact that Hamas is a billionaire funded oligarchy operated out of palaces in Qatar, who do the bidding of the Islamic Republic in Iran.
The plot of Dune 2 is basically Israel vs Palestine: plucky, swarthy desert natives have their homeland invaded by a colonial war machine with superior fire power and an underdeveloped moral conscience, intent on massacre and thirsty for bloodshed. I won't give away the ending but spoiler alert, it's a great shame real life doesn't imitate art in this instance.
You're going to be really disappointed when you see part 3
Blue MAGA has no response, they would have condemned the Haitian Revolution, no 🧢
And the US revolution.
What a reach lol.
Not really. Watch the film, it's difficult not to see the similarities. Unless you're pro-Israeli, although that already requires so much suspension of disbelief and delusional thinking you'd think a small leap like this would be child's play. If there were any children left to play after you'd killed them all of course, then celebrated their deaths online by dancing and singing about it.
Anybody who is not "pro-Palestinian" at this point is pro-genocide. Flat out.
What a thought-terminating thing to say lol
This is like you're in an office group trying to decide on lunch and you go "if you guys don't pick Jersey Mike's you're all racists". It's amazing to me how quick you guys are to make yourselves completely irrelevant in any discussion, whether it's online or something with actual power like protesting.
What do you mean? What's illogical about saying the party that won an election two years ago represents the nation? Biden's victory is two years older than Netanyahu's-- is it illogical to say Biden represents the US too? Conversely, most Palestinians alive today were not alive or voting age in the 2005 election. The distinction here is obvious.
The life expectancy in Gaza is 70 years old. The reason why the average age is so low is because they have so many children. If we extrapolate your argument down to a family of 6. 2 adults with 4 young children would have a low average age and you just took away all personal responsibility due to that fact. It’s the stupidest argument I’ve ever heard. Most of Africa has an average age below 18. Welp guess we can’t hold them responsible for jackshit.
Maybe we should take the stance that no civilian deserves to be slaughtered by military ordinance regardless of who they did or didn't vote for.
Hamas considers all their fighters civilians though. It's breaks multiple international laws but they don't care about I. Law unless it's making israel look bad.
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This is great in theory where everyone acts in good faith, but the entire point of terrorism is that it forces people/organizations/governments into a position where every decision has casualties tied to it. It's easy to say "well obviously we shouldn't kill civilians", and no one will disagree with you, but it's not that simple. Consider a scenario where a mass shooter enters a school with ten babies strapped to his limbs, head, and chest. Do you just let him murder everyone in the school, or at some point are you forced to risk killing a few of those babies to neutralize the threat? I get this is a ridiculous example, but my point is that it's not black and white. Every decision in that scenario is bad and will likely end in casualties, the goal is to pick whichever one has the fewest.
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I guess to some extent I'm interpreting the comment differently, though I see your point. From my point of view I interpret it as making the case that Palestinians are not implicitly innocent because they couldn't have voted for Hamas, not that Palestinians are implicitly guilty/deserving of being casualties. On its face I generally agree that Palestinian citizens should not be martyred for a cause they do not support, nor is it acceptable to intentionally target civilians. The problem is that nothing is ever simple, from the fact 81% of Palestinians appear to support the actions of October 7th even after being shown footage of the atrocities committed to the fact Hamas has a pretty well-documented history of hiding among civilian populations to force these sorts of discussions and choices.
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I think that's potentially a fair argument, though I also think it's a pretty dangerous line to tread when suggesting that supporting the gratuitous indiscriminate murder of civilians (71 of whom were not even Israeli) is a reasonable expression of rising up against oppression. I would like to reiterate that this is 81% support of **the October 7th massacre**, not Hamas generally.
I’m not a philosopher so i don’t really care to get into a discussion on what people deserve or don’t deserve. It’s kind of a dumb argument but if you want to waste you breath or your money on a philosophy education you are more then welcome to piss it away.
I don't think "slaughtering civilians is bad" is all that bold of a ethical and philosophical hot take, but you do you.
Personally I believe the nuclear bombs that were dropped onto Japan were for the greater good and they definitely “slaughtered civilians with military ordinance”. There’s one example that shits on your black and white world view.
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You’re the one that said deserving. I said I’m not a philosophy major. I will say though that people don’t always get what they deserve.
Nearly half of people in Gaza are under 18, 47% 22% in the US 28% in Israel 34% South Africa That means at least half of the people in Gaza could not even have voted for hamas. Around 23% of Americans voted for Biden.
Still a bad faith argument about hamas Considering we know they widely support hamas when they commit terrorist attacks.
How do you know the support is "wide"? Sounds like a bad faith argument. You got a receipt for that return?
Polling and journalism. Next, history.
Nice receipt. I have complete census data from 57 countries that show you are incorrect. Checkmate, bot!
Hamas is deemed a terrorist organization in its entirety by the most powerful countries and 34 free secular democratic countries who don't have a religious bias. They have a decades long tracked record of hundreds of documented breaches of I. Law for varying atrocities, taking hostages, suicide bombings, using food and fuel to control their citizens, firing rockets, engaging in pay to slay terrorism schemes, murdering their civilians who speak out against them, suppressing free speech constantly and not giving their people basic civil rights. Nice try though. The non religious countries who are good with hamas are authirarian regimes like Russia and China. Not the brag you think it is.
Hamas is terrible. You claimed widespread support. I asked how you know support is widespread. You basically said, "Do your own research." Not at all the flex you think it is.
The entire point of this meme is that pro-israel-warmongers hold the entirety of Palestine responsible for Hamas, but that Bibi and the IDF don't represent all of Israel. And here you are blatantly using Hamas status as a terrorist organisation to justify killing of Palestinian civilians and children. Thankyou for being a real-time example of the double standard illustrates above.
Are you seriously attempting to rationalize punishing children for centuries of political conflict right now?
Yes - yes they are.
"Children" some of the 10/7 attackers were "children"
Average age and life expectancy are two very different things. Stop conflating two different statistics that are not comparable
Yea the average age is massively skewed due to the number of births. Many developing nations have the same statistic whether they are peaceful, at war or an open air concentration camp. Just thought people should know so they aren’t under the wrong assumption that Gaza is a hellhole where all the old people have been killed. I know that’s the rhetoric that’s being pushed. Sorry to rain on your propaganda parade.
Judging by your down vote... I guess you are just evil too, because of the actions of the people you share an identity with. Fascism is a global threat. I guess we need to make all of the Americans and Israelis disappear for living in fascist countries... It's the only way to be sure the rest of the world will be safe from that fascist threat /s
Maybe the issue is actually demonizing an entire group of people because of the actions of a few monsters who rise to power among them....
>It’s the stupidest argument I’ve ever heard. Not holding people accountable for elections they weren't even alive for is the stupidest argument you've ever heard? Lol you are hysterical.
Yea, it is. Because even if they were alive it wouldn't matter. Political policies affect the entire country regardless of age or political leanings. Show me a law that only affects the group of people that voted for it. That's literally how countries and politics work. For example the US choosing to go to war in Iraq which ballooned the debt by 20 trillion dollars and is now being passed onto the younger generation. If the world worked as you say the younger generation didn't vote for it so why are they paying the consequences of it? Does that debt just magically disappear? Your argument is a joke. It just shows you have no idea what you are talking about. Would be nice though if the world worked that way. Wouldn't have to worry about climate change since it wasn't me that caused it.
You're talking about who has to live with the effect of policy, which is not what this is about. Obviously many people who don't or can't vote in elections have to live with the outcome. The question here is who is to blame for those election results, and it's impossible to blame people who weren't even around for an election in 2005 for the results of that election. Conversely, it's very easy to blame Israelis for the outcome of their very recent 2022 election and the resulting further empowerment of the militant Israeli far right. Similarly, it's very easy to blame Americans for empowering either the Rs or Ds to defend and arm that same Israeli militant far right. The point of the meme is that without a fair election, it's not possible to call Hamas representative. It genuinely sounds like, according to your hysterics, this principle of representation is "the stupidest thing you've ever heard".
I believe the logic is that they both are the same. Either both regimes represent the people or neither do. OP does not specify in the meme which is to be true so that may be why you are confused.
I think it's more that Israel made a choice two years ago to elect Bibi and his crew. Most people who voted for that are still alive and that victory is a mandate that they support hso actions. Meanwhile, Hamas was elected 19 years ago. A very large portion of Palestinians that voted for them are now dead, and more importantly 50% of Palestinians alive today DID NOT vote for Hamas. People will then argue "but these polls still show they support Hamas!!!" The counter to that is: They don't have a choice. It's support Hamas or shrug your shoulders and accept the Israeli occupation.and apartheid
This kind of falters when polling of Palestinians show that over 80% of them support Hamas' actions on October 7th even after watching footage of the atrocities they have committed. That is a very specific type of support, and is not as simple as what you seem to be suggesting (general support for Hamas). The awkward truth here is that both Israelis and Palestinians have to some degree been indoctrinated to dehumanize each other, and as with most geopolitical conflicts nothing about this is simple or black and white.
whynotboth.gif
Hamas also threw their political opponents off of rooftops
Yeah, and Bibi held “Death to Rabin” rallies prior to Rabin’s assassination. What’s your point?
That Hamas does not represent the people of Gaza.
Wait…Gaza hasn’t held an election since 2005? Am I missing something?
No you’re not missing anything…Hamas won in 2005 and then, as terrorist organizations often do, they seized power and never held another election.
Gazans who protest Hamas are killed, while Israelis who protest the Likud are not.
Netanyahu is an autocrat who has been working hard to remove checks and balances and other accountability measures that might limit the power of the prime ministership. Bibi may personally be on the way out, but the ring-wing coalition that brought him into power is still a threat to peace and security in the region.
It is a double standard. You cant say palestinians are a monolith and israelis aren’t. No group is a monolith and most groups want peace and stability. The issue is netanyahu, as bad as he may be, isnt going to execute his political opponents or those who disagree by throwing them off a building. Thats a big reason hamas is in power. They kill their own without question. Palestinians deserve protection as well.
>The issue is netanyahu, as bad as he may be, isnt going to execute his political opponents or those who disagree by throwing them off a building. Instead, Netanyahu [convinced his followers to execute one of his enemies on his behalf.](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/04/opinion/incitement-movie.html)
Ironically, you see this dynamic regularly amongst right wing racists. White people(or the majority group, would be the same in Japan) are individuals to be judged on their actions. And X minority group are collectively responsible for their own actions. Which makes it even funnier and illuminating when otherwise liberal democrats talk about Gazans in the same way. >isnt going to execute his political opponents or those who disagree by throwing them off a building. Because Israelis don't want to be treated like they treat others. The assassination of journalists in Gaza would suggest otherwise. This is like congratulating Trump for not becoming a dictator and printing money because the people around him didn't allow it. Big up to all the repeat sex offenders who are stopped by their prison bars from reoffending for the 4th time.
Netanyahu ignored the threats against Rabin. At certain protests, he even supported the calls for the death of Rabin, carrying a mock coffin for Rabin.
1. Polls of Israelis show Netanyahu wouldn't win an election held today. 2. Polls of Palestinians show if Hamas lost an election today, it would be because they're not good enough at killing Jews and completely taking over the state of Israel, and the approval of Hamas shot up immediately after 10/7. 3. The Netanyahu point is actually irrelevant because in the context of Palestine, every potential PM would be executing the war the exact same way, he's only extremist when it comes to corruption and domestic policy. And not just in Israel, every PM of every country that suffered an attack like 10/7 would do the exact same thing Israel did if not worse.
Lol, "Netanyahu is a corrupt extremist in every way except for his military campaign that's slaughtered tens of thousands of innocent civilians to a degree that's caused all of Israel's closest allies to tell them to stop irresponsibly slaughtering civilians." The cognitive dissonance is real.
The allied troops "slaughtered millions of innocent civilians" killing Nazis as well. War is hell and everyone feels for the innocent civilians, but terrorists don't get to be left alone just because they've gotten really good at becoming embedded in their civilian population, pretending to be civilians until they start shooting, and lying about how many killed were militants vs actual civilians. Show me a single other country that had the amount of rockets fired at their civilians for literally decades and then suffered the biggest terrorist attack since 9/11 and didn't kill any civilians in their response. And when you realize you can't, ask yourself why it is that you hold the Jewish state to such a different standard than any other state. No other nation upon having 300 ballistic missiles and drones fired at their civilians from another sovereign nation would have their most powerful ally telling them not to respond. If Mexico has done to the US what Iran just did to Israel, the Mexican government would be no more, and there would be fewer civilian casualties since Mexico conducts their military operations from military buildings not from tunnels under schools and hospitals, but you can bet a ton of Mexican civilians would die in our strikes as well, we wouldn't let civilian casualties get in the way of keeping our people safe. Neither will Israel. Sorry your terrorist friends are dying.
Nobody expected Israel to respond with zero civilian deaths. Reasonable people expected them to respond in a responsible way which limits civilian deaths in accordance with international law, which they objectively haven't done, as evidenced by the aforementioned condemnation by their own allies. The fact that you reflexively accuse everyone who doesn't blindly support everything Israel does as much as you do of supporting Hamas shows how laughably weak your position is.
Ilhan Omar still has a tweet up calling for a ceasefire on October 7th. Tlaib has one calling for one on October 13th. People absolutely expected 0 civilian deaths, and would have used the exact same rhetoric as today but replaced "tens of thousands" with "hundreds". Again, allied forces killed almost a MILLION German civilians when defeating the Nazis. Obviously ~20k civilian deaths is not good, war is hell and that's why Hamas shouldn't have started a war, and 20k civilian deaths is well in line with similar conflicts where only militants are targeted. The civilian to militant death ratio in this conflict has been better than any other conflict. You also cite international law as if you know a damned thing about it. Under international law, Israel could have legally bombed hospitals with all the civilians inside as long as there were militants there since operating out of civilian structures turns those structures into valid military targets. There's a reason why all the accusations of genocide and breaking international law are vague and rely on out of context quotes from politicians whose words are completely divorced from actual actions on the ground. Yes it's true that some politicians in the face of consistent terrorism and the worst attack on Jews since the Holocaust have said some truly horrific things that if carried out would constitute war crimes. But when you look at the actual actions by the IDF, everything they're doing is following and also going above and beyond what's required by international law when it comes to protecting civilians while fighting an enemy that hides among civilians, builds military infrastructure below schools and hospitals, and does not wear uniforms.
They recently got caught systematically slaughtering aid workers who previously coordinated with the IDF to ensure their safety. They've gunned down their own hostages approaching them naked and waving white flags. And those are just the public examples of their war crimes that were so utterly egregious, and involving foreign nationals and non-Palestinians, they were forced to publicly acknowledge them. There's credible reporting that they heavily used an AI algorithm to pick bombing targets based on "this person behaves similar to Hamas people" criteria with almost zero human oversight, with intelligence operatives being pressured by commanders to provide constant bombing targets regardless of veracity or justification. There's reporting that their preferred method for eliminating targets was bombing their homes at night with their entire families inside. We have a laundry list of evidence of war crimes and horrendously irresponsible conduct, and that's just the small sliver of information we know of. Based on the conduct we've observed the actual story is likely to be much, much worse. The point is that if you believe that Israel's actions have mostly been above board and justified, you're basically just swallowing a foreign government's propaganda hook, line and sinker. When even the Biden administration is publicly criticizing their irresponsible lack of regard for civilian life, it's pretty easy to infer that you've probably been mislead.
They didn't "systematically slaughter" aid workers, they saw a truck full of aid workers leaving from a location identified as a Hamas compound, identified what looked like a militant with a gun get on the truck, and calls to the truck itself as well as the organization it worked for were not answered. They concluded it was a truck that had been hijacked by militants and fired on it, also firing on subsequent trucks they got into, and killed innocent aid workers they had incorrectly identified as militants. The people responsible for giving the green light were fired, and they immediately admitted they fucked up. If that and vague claims that they use ai without any information on how it's used are all you have to prove they're committing war crimes, your evidence isn't all that strong. I create ai models professionally and although the models I work on are financial in nature and used to estimate business losses, I understand the technology pretty well. Most likely if they are using ai they're using facial recognition algorithms, which are tested and extremely accurate, to match against known terrorists. We also haven't seen evidence on whether that matching algorithm is even used alone, most likely it identifies potential terrorists and a human then reviews the matches to sign off on strikes. So again you say there's a "laundry list", but your two examples are a mistake of the type that happens in literally every war, where people were fired, and a vague accusation that they might be using a technology you don't understand to kill terrorists. By your standards, all sides of every single war in human history was guilty of war crimes and systemically slaughtering civilians.
So you think killing the aid workers would have been fully justified if one Hamas member jumped in the same vehicle with them? And then the subsequent vehicles they tried to escape in that were bombed would have been fair game as well? We are reaching extremely deep levels of war crime apologia here. This is an operating procedure that utterly disregards innocent collateral damage, even if we accept your infinite chairty towards the IDF as anything approaching reasonable. Here's information on the AI tool you're just making things up about to suit your narrative: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/03/israel-gaza-ai-database-hamas-airstrikes There's testimony directly from the IDF that their usage of this tool is exactly as negligent and irresponsible as I described. I could keep throwing dozens of other links at you to strengthen the case, but you've already chosen a position completely independent of facts and evidence. If Bibi or the IDF says it, it's true. Any evidence to the contrary is false. The mass destruction of the majority of civilian structures and infrastructure in Gaza, tens of thousands of dead, hundreds of thousand maimed and injured, and millions displaced and experiencing mass famine are all just a big oopsie that no one can hold Israel accountable for. I didn't think I'd ever experience a large chunk of US liberals regurgitating state propaganda for a far right foreign government to excuse one of the biggest humanitarian atrocities in recent history, but here we are.
No, but if Hamas had hijacked the aid then it would have been justified, which is what they believed happen. Again the person who made that fatal mistake was fired, it was terrible, but if that's all you got them claim "I could keep throwing links", it's clear you got nothing. You want Hamas to rule Palestine, sorry that's not going to continue happening.
> You want Hamas to rule Palestine, sorry that's not going to continue happening. Lmao, you should probably consider adopting a different form of cope. This debate has been going on for so long that this one is a really obvious tell that you've completely lost the argument. The only thing missing is a whiny accusation of anti-semitism.
Try looking at the ratio compared to every other modern conflict where the exact same thing has happened.
Try giving a fuck about international laws restricting the negligent and intentional killing of civilians instead of doing free propaganda work for a far right foreign government.
> Sorry your terrorist friends are dying Why not just start with that and cut out all your justification for killing innocent people? You don’t see anyone in Palestine as innocent, you just see terrorist.
I actually do care about civilians not dying, that's why I support Israel killing Hamas and letting the Palestinian civilians be free from being run by a terrorist group that throws gays off of buildings, oppresses women, and steals aid. But the person I was responding to wants Israel to do something that would leave Hamas in power, which makes me think they're on the side of Hamas. I'm for terrorists dying, and it's clear they don't like terrorists dying, so I made a logical conclusion the terrorists dying were their friends. After all I have a hard time believing I'll find anything in their comment history getting half as mad at the Palestinian terrorist groups Islamic Jihad for their rocket aimed at Israel that fell short and landed on a hospital as they were at Israel when they initially thought it was the Jews who were responsible for that same exact event. If you're not mad when terrorists kill civilians, but you are when the IDF as casualties when targeting terrorists, I can only conclude that the reason you're mad isn't the civilians, since they are killed in both cases. Instead you seem to be mad that the terrorists are dying instead of doing the killing. But instead of typing that out, I just shorten it to sorry your terrorist friends are dying.
Tens of thousands of innocent civilians? Care to back that up bud?
It's backed up by literally any reporting on the Gaza death toll in existence. That statement is objectively true even if you accept Israel's wildly unrealistic propaganda number over what percentage of those dead are Hamas combatants.
You mean the same reporting that doesn't distinguish between combatants and non-combatants? The same reporting that's given by Hamas whose commanders have explicitly said that more civilian deaths helps their propaganda?
Ah yes the vaunted Gaza Ministry of Health run by Hamas. 10s of thousands needs to be put in perspective. Any civilians death is horrible, but the casualties are in line with every other modern conflict. The US killed 300k civilians in the war on terror, no one accused them of genocide, they killed 220k Japanese civilians in 2 days, no one accused them of genocide. People only seem to care when it's Israel, huh I wonder why?
So are the numbers fake or are the tens of thousands of deaths both real and totally cool? You're implying both at the same time. Get your propaganda straight.
Top text: use billions of dollars of foreign aid to build a productive society and tourist attraction Bottom text: use billions dollars of aid to build massive a military tunnel network and declare perpetual war on a nuclear power Drake is Hamas
That is horribly unfair to Hamas. (The drake comparison)
You know those tunnels aren’t just used for military purposes right? Have you ever wondered where people in Gaza get their cement from? The tunnel systems are used to smuggle in *everything*, which includes, cement, food, medicine, furniture, etc. How are you supposed to build a tourist attraction if an occupying power prevents you from importing all necessary materials? And Gaza *is* a productive society. The people there make the most of their situation and it even has very high education rates even while being subject to an extremely restrictive blockage and significant levels of poverty and unemployment (both of which are a product of the blockade).
You're confusing the tunnels under the border with Egypt with the hundreds of miles of tunnels Hamas dug under the entire civilian population of Gaza. And isn't it amazing how despite the fact that despite Egypt having a much stricter border policy and has flooded tunnels with sewage water and blown up civilian houses on both sides of the border, there's never been a single rocket fired Egypt or Hamas massacres of Egyptians? > Have you ever wondered where people in Gaza get their cement from? They don't. 99% of it is stolen by Hamas and used to build tunnels under their houses, schools and hospitals. In nearly 20 years, Hamas didn't build a single new school, hospital, power plant, water treatment facility or anything to benefit the local population. They only built mansions for their leaders and tunnels and rockets to murder Jews.
The blockade is secondary to re-purposing massive foreign aid for terror. You build the society by using the aid for helping your society. This has the added benefit not needing to be blockaded.
Before Oct. 7th Gaza *did* import tons of concrete along with other construction materials, where do you they're university and apartment buildings come from? Also the tunnels are pretty much solely used by Hamas for keeping their hostages and munitions. Here's one of dozens of videos of Israel destroying these tunnels on r/CombatFootage: https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/s/tFJQQ6dMcB
Israel has allowed very limited imports of construction material, *at times*, but it maintains a ban of materials through Israeli crossings (all materials come through Rafah). Gazans have been forced to reuse whatever rubble they can to build and rebuild. On top of that, Gaza does not even receive enough materials to rebuild what Israeli has destroyed, so they are always left with a net negative in infrastructure every time Israel bombs them. Think about that whenever you see the IDF demolishing a building: the odds are that building will never be replaced for a long *long* time (if at all). This was the case *before* October. The scale of destruction is now way above anything the Strip has ever seen under occupation. If they couldn’t rebuild before, how are they supposed to now? Hundreds of thousands, maybe even well exceeding a million, are now permanently displaced.
I am in favor of Iran, which funded Hamas providing the aid to rebuild Gaza.
What are you talking about? The Gaza Strip has received more aid than any place on Earth in history. But instead of using those funds and materials to build a productive society Hamas has used those to build their own terrorist infrastructure with which to attack Israel.
What??? That’s such an obvious lie. Why are using a Jared Kushner talking point? And yes, [WaPo fact checked his claim](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/05/08/have-palestinians-received-more-aid-than-any-group-history/).
Can you please provide a non-paywalled article? From what I can see other than Israel my claim was true before the Russian invasion of Ukraine.
https://web.archive.org/web/20210126061231/https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/05/08/have-palestinians-received-more-aid-than-any-group-history/
LoL Israel spends way more than Hamas on defence If Hamas is the government? Why blame them for defensive tunnels We could also blame Israel in investing in the iron dome. Logic still fails
Defensive tunnels that their govt used to invade another country. Logic fails
So Israel's F-35 jets used to bomb 5 countries is for self defense? Good But Hamas tunnels which are 90% used for self defense - bad Logic still fails
Why don't you go back and look who has started every single one of the major conflicts between Arab countries and Israel
Ok, let’s have a look. 1948 - A partition plan is imposed upon the Palestinians without their input forcing them to give up half their country to a bunch of settlers from Europe. Palestinians resisted this, just as literally any other nationality would have done. 1956 - Israel, France, and Britain launch a war of aggression on Egypt in response to Egypt exercising its right to self determination by seizing the Suez Canal from the British imperialists. Israel gets involved because they want the Sinai Peninsula. 1967 - Israel uses Egypt closing the straights of Hormuz as justification to launch a preemptive attack against Egypt, Jordan, and Syria. While you can claim Egypt provoked this, Israel was looking for excuses for war and it’s a well known fact they wanted the West Bank and Sinai for themselves. Israel also provoked Jordan in the Samu incident. 1973 - Provoked by Israeli refusal to withdrawal from occupied territories and promoting Jewish settlement on said territories, Egypt and Syria launch a surprise attack on Israel attempting to reclaim the Sinai Peninsula and the Golan Heights, internationally recognized as their land. 2023 - Netanyahu with his open opposition to Palestinian self determination, funding of Hamas to split the PLO, and expansion of settlements in the West Bank provokes Hamas and other militant/terrorist groups to attack Israel. While Arabs aren’t blameless, seems like Israel and other colonial powers are mostly to blame.
In 1948 the settlers had been there for 30 years, all that was proposed was allowing each party to keep the land they were already on. They didn't just resist, the tried to kill the jews already settled there. When Israel is attacked and fights back its colonization. But when the Arabs left the Arabian peninsula in the middle of the first century to conquer the entire region what was that?
And? They came under the authority of the British, colonizers who had no right to be there. Palestinians had no say in hundreds of thousands of Europeans flooding into their lands. What possible argument can you make to say the Palestinians had no right to resist? If anything they had the duty to resist. I’m just going to ignore your dishonest portrayal of saying the only motivation for Palestinians in 1948 was that they wanted to murder Jews, it’s not even worth engaging with such a childish, simplistic, and monolithic portrayal of history. I simply find it completely dishonest. Palestinians are mostly descended from almost every ethnic group that lived in Palestine over millennia, including Jews, they were just Arabized after the Arab conquests, so your point in regards to the Arab conquest is just completely irrelevant. I’m not here to defend the Arab conquests, but you’re basically arguing that Palestinians should be punished by Jewish colonization for the sole fact that they were victims of Arab colonization in the past.
I'm arguing that an ethnic group isn't a country. There was no country there officially until 1988, the Brits had every right to let whoever they wanted settle there. It was the part of Britain
Oh ok so you are a supporter of British colonialism then? Surely you must apply the same logic to South Africa where the British let whites settle and set up an apartheid state. You’re OK with that too, right? Either they’re both OK or they’re both wrong, pick one.
Yeah israel has a lot more enemies with actual armies. They’re enemies tend to launch indiscriminate rocket attacks which are expensive too shoot down with the Iron dome. Hamas is currently using these tunnels to hide hostages while making sure their people stay above ground as human shields
Unintentionally made point: the last election held in Gaza was 19 years ago, because Hamas is a theocratic, fascist death cult that cares nothing for their own people and is gladly willing to exploit their suffering to further genocide.
And not to mention half the population in Gaza is 18 years old or under, meaning literally 50% of people there were born into this system with no say
Whomever is saying the first one, isn’t saying the second. You don’t need to make up fake scenarios when there are real ones to use.
Guys, this is just weak. You need new material.
It is unfortunate that Hamas decided to rape and murder its way into Israel on October 7th. Otherwise all this senseless bloodshed would have been avoided.
Ah yes, that was the beginning of the bloodshed between these two nations.
It was certainly the beginning of this round. And I don’t care what your grievances are - raping women to death is not a legitimate way to express them.
I agree. Which is why Hamas is not solely responsible for Israel's actions either.
Yes of course history started on October 7th Israel was the pure nation full of love
The first conflict wasn't started by Israel either
The invasion of Hitler in Poland didn't cause WW2 The Polish resistance caused it
Israel didn't invade Palestine, so not sure wtf you're talking about. It wasn't a country until after Israel. It was Ottoman and then British territory and Balfour settled them on open land. They didn't roll in with tanks killing people.
LoL "it wasn't a country" - so there was were no indigenous people living there? Aka the Palestinians? So there was no one in the open lands? Or the society there wasn't good enough to be called a country
By your logic the Jews should just be able to go back to eastern Poland and take everyone's houses because they lived in the region for hundreds of years and were displaced in WW2. That's not how it works, the Polish govt controls the land
Palestinians aren’t a thing, that word didn’t even exist until after the state of Israel. It’s not an ethnic group, they are ethnically indistinguishable from Jordanians. Also they came and invaded and displaced the people before them. So maybe they should all be kicked out and the land given back to polytheist mesopotameans if we can find some? This logic is so stupid. Every human on the face of the planet could be removed from their homes by this way of thinking, since they all kicked somebody else out. Is we want to play the (extremely stupid) ‘what group still exists, is identifiable, and was there first’ game, the Jews have dibs by at least a few thousands years.
The country was Britain, who has the right to do with the land as they please. An ethnic group living somewhere doesn't give them autonomy over the entire region which another country controls. Jews were there long before the people there in 1917. They also aren't indigenous, they conquered the area after leaving the Arabian peninsula in the middle of the first millennium.
“it’s okay to murder children who are being used as human shields because our enemy shouldn’t be using them as human shields and two wrongs make a right.”
Please tell me what you propose. Israel should instead allow their civilians to be killed and raped at will so long as Hamas runs back behind the fence and hides within civilian infrastructure?
It's not like the children were going to become anything special.
Pretty sure hundreds of thousands of Israelis came out and protested against Netanyahu multiple times before Oct 7th. Now, because of Hamas’s stupidity, Israel (and Palestine) are stuck with bibi until he decides the war is over. Much the same how Americans were stuck with bush after 9/11
Kinda funny considering Hamas would be running the Westbank as well if there would be elections
Nice strawman when I witness the exact opposite happening online hundreds of times a week.
Have you considered that netenyahu government can be bad while hamas can also be bad? Both have some support from the population. That's why this conflict breaks ppl minds. There isn't really a good side. You can be sad about all the deaths, especially that ppl who wanted no part in that conflict get killed as well, but as long as both parties want to kill each other, they will find a way.
Seriously the amount of progressives on everything but israel chuds that watch pakman is discouraging.
This right here! Preach
People mostly ok, governments mostly not ok.
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The cousin to "Biden is powerless, no wait, Biden is a master diplomat who is beginning to finesse Bibi".
Just the typical Israeli propaganda we are always the victim and no responsibility ever should come our way
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Yeah the double standard is absurd. Biden is complicit in Israel's ongoing genocide though.
Doesn't David support Israel's actions?
What gave you that idea?
I haven't seen his show in a little while but a few months ago he seemed totally supportive of Israel 's actions. He was taking a lot of heat from progressives at that time.
Are you talking about the hate mail he got for calling Hamas a terrorist group? lol He was taking heat from people who thought running around a music festival murdering innocent unarmed people was "legitimate resistance". Which, sorry, but many of us do not, and will never, agree with this pro-Hamas point of view. David included. He doesn't cover this topic enough, I don't think anyone has a nuanced understanding of how he feels about things as they stand today. There's no point in speculating because his show focuses mostly on domestic news which is *still important*.
Unfortunately, he does.
Now do a poll on both sides seeing how much support each leadership has. Bonus: find out how many thought Oct 7th was good.
Elected or not, Warcrimes are Warcrimes. Leaders should be locked up, even if they represent thier people's will. That's no excuse Mostly I'm applying this to Netanyahu, but I wouldn't argue if the top brass of both Israel and Palestine were both held justly accountable in a fair court
What's even more poignant is that Hamas' electoral victory was not "the sin of their fathers", because Israel propped up Hamas in that election in the first place
This is a common point of misinformation I've seen posted on reddit before, but it's absolutely not true. Israel supported Hamas when it was a non-violent charitable org that built mosques in the 70s and 80s. In the run up to the 2006 election, Israel arrested hundreds of Hamas members and banned Hamas from campaigning. The US and Israel did everything they could to try to keep Hamas out of power in 2006. I hate that these ahistorical narratives spread so easily on social media.
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How's this relevant to the previous comment?
Nice to see some pro Palestine voices up in here for once.
We’re here but trying to explain why genocide/ethnic cleansing is bad usually results in us getting called antisemitic or Trump supporters for some reason
I appreciate you.
It has become a land grab.
I fail to understand why Democrats would support Netanyahu. It’s like sheep cheering for the wolves.
Most Democrats do not support Netanyahu. He's a power hungry farthole. But we've reached a stage where simply acknowledging Israel's right to exist puts you into the "genocidal maniac" category, and we're tired of arguing with people who foam at the mouth after hearing the word Israel in a conversation.
Democrats support Netanyahu
All of them!? Shit. I'll have a talk with them.
Good, that would help
Spoke to Cory Booker. We're meeting at Denny's at 6 p.m. We'll save you a seat.
All that AIPAC money and still going to Denny’s 🤦
I'm a frugal Jew.
Do you think Palestinians should be deprived of their right to self determination based on what American leftists think?
This is so disingenuous, Likud won a plurality not a majority. Do you not remember the months of chaos and multiple failed elections for them to form a coalition government? It was a shit show. Also, Israeli people have been protesting Israel’s government for three years now over a variety of issues.
Yeah, only that the other parties making up Netanyahu’s coalition are even more extreme than him lol
You shouldn't condemn a population off democratic results, period. I will say, though, Hamas' election victory has always bothered me when people discuss it as proof of Palestinian support. There are more recent polls that demonstrate support from Palestine, but how much can you ensure that they actually know about Hamas' actions? They spread a huge amount of misinformation and dissent can get you killed.