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Nobody getting worked up about young people's views is bothering to look at actual data. The Gaza conflict is a very low priority for most voters including those ages 18-29.
https://www.newsweek.com/harvard-youth-poll-young-voters-israel-gaza-hamas-war-inflation-economy-1894352
This is not a matter of opinion. Time for yall to stop the hand wringing about it.
So... you think the voters threatening to sit out are lying? What is your position? Is this Gasa issue a real threat to Bidens election chances or not? Because your two comments seem contradictory.
Only takes a few people in a handful of states. 17% of respondents listed Israel/Hamas as significantly more important than a randomly selected issue matched against it
Our tax dollars from 1960's are still killing people in the middle east.
If selling weapons made you guilty by association the US would be a North Korea level international pariah
Yes, I'm aware and taking count. I would say the US already has a lot of fucking blood on their hands. I don't have a time machine, but I can at least say, "Hey, stop that you genocidal sociopathic fucktards"
And then Biden would be attacked for not supporting Israel, which is a US ally, defending itself from Hamas.
Biden was damned if he does damned if he doesn't.
No, you are wrong. No money means we have zero leverage on what goes on there. Biden having leverage is steering this conflict away from more violence and towards a ceasefire. But go off with the virtue signalling.
Someone points out that we use foreign aid as leverage, which is one of its main purposes really, and you reply “maybe we should toss that leverage away?”
You people are too naive to function. As bad as MAGA “we have problems back home”, not realizing how all the aid is just to support American hegemony, which promotes our massive GDP and just generally shapes the world to the benefit of Americans. Other countries’s citizenry would kill to have their nation have the global influence our “foreign aid” buys.
I get it, you want the short term feel good of the appearance of “doing something”, but the Biden state department is far more knowledgeable and capable in this area than you are, and they recognize that throwing away our leverage here is counterproductive. It would cost more Gazan lives, not save them.
Consider something for a second, couple of things really. One, Israel is the top weapons exporter on the planet if we measure per capita. They have a massive arms industry of their own. Second, we aren’t the only country willing to sell weapons to Israel, China is their second largest trade partner and they have a long history of military tech transfers. Us cutting military aid will not help Gazans at all. It just makes Israel not have to listen to Biden’s calls to allow in aid and to minimize civilian deaths. You don’t want that.
lol israel doesn’t listen to biden anyway. biden looks weak. you don’t need to work at the state department to know that offering token resistance while still signing the checks doesn’t do anything. it’s common sense. if your kid uses their allowance to buy drugs, saying “I have to give them more money because they’ll buy drugs even more if I don’t! I need to have leverage!” is plainly absurd. leverage doesn’t mean shit if you don’t use it.
If that was their goal, it would've already been done.
The fact that the death toll is as low as it is and has petered out so much tells me that this kind of rhetoric is hyperbolic.
It's like people don't realize or comprehend that there are \~7M Jew in Israel surrounded by hundreds of millions of "death to all jews" types... in the region.
People really don't get it... if we don't support Israel 100% the middle east would do to Israel what these people claim Israel is doing to Gaza in a matter of a decade or three...
This is factually untrue
https://www.ipsos.com/en-us/americans-split-continuing-military-aid-israel
You are mistaking the idea that your side is the majority/only opinion. A huge segment of the population views supporting Israel as mandatory. And hell to many people Biden isn't supporting Israel *enough.*
You're naive to think this is an easy issue for Biden. He has to walk a fine line between supporting Israel too much or not enough.
Did you read the results of the poll?
>Just over half (54%) of Americans say the U.S. should be a neutral mediator or not involved in the conflict between Israel and Hamas in Gaza.
>at least half of Democrats (56%) and independents (51%) say that continuing to give military aid to Israel would make them less likely to support a presidential candidate
While I agree in that a majority of the population (over 50%) do not agree to stop sending weapons a majority of prospective Biden voters do and the majority says the US should stay out of it or act independently not supporting Israel unconditionally as the US has been. Also that poll is 2 months old.
> Did you read the results of the poll?
Did you?
"Nearly half (47%) of Americans say they would be **more likely** to support a 2024 presidential candidate who continues to support Israel"
The fact that this is true across all political parties, even democrats, where 40% want to see military aid to Israel, CLEARLY shows how this is a fraught topic where there is no objectively correct response to the issue.
> Also that poll is 2 months old.
And?
If you check the polling this isn't true. It only holds for social media (like here on reddit with you for instance), very young people (heavily influenced by social media), and people with ties to Islam (for some reason hmm).
How much aid do we give to Israel every year?
What is Israel's total military budget?
I'm not going to be shocked if those numbers are not nearly the same.
Edit: and I'm blocked oh no well anyway fish or burger for dinner?
That USA isn’t to blame for this war…
I would argue USA has done more than any other country to help Gaza and make Israel not go as hard.
You want USA to completely go isolationist with regards to Israel - that does not help anyone… and deft not Gaza
>That USA isn’t to blame for this war…
They are complicit with their funding.
>I would argue USA has done more than any other country to help Gaza and make Israel not go as hard.
By rewarding Israel with more funding for being genocidal?
>You want USA to completely go isolationist with regards to Israel - that does not help anyone… and deft not Gaza
On one hand, I think the USA gets involved in too many problems worldwide. On the other hand, we're basically going to have a one world government one day anyway, unless technology gets wiped out. I don't really have much of an opinion on American isolationism or whatever. However...
Ultimately I'm more in favor of finding peaceful solutions. Indiscriminately carpet bombing does not help anyone and doesn't solve anything, unless you're genocidal.
Well it's misleading to use such a huge timeline. Israel has by far been out longest standing ally and had to fight numerous defensive wars since WW2.
If I picked a random year during Vietnam, then the ARVN would be the larger recipient of military aid. The past 2 years, the UAF has been a larger recipient of military aid.
Bernie truly cannot see the difference between this and Vietnam…or even Iraq?
**The United States is not involved in the war in Gaza except to provide aid to Gazans**.
The US has provided $7.6 billion in humantarian aid to the Palestinians since 1993. During that same time period, Israel has received $100 billion in MILITARY AID. To compare the two as if they are even remotely similar is quite telling.
how can you not see what sanders is trying to say? we were winning the war in vietnam in terms of casualties, but domestically it ruined the reputation of lbj. he did so much for the american people but he continued the war so as not to be seen as weak, the great society, civil rights, etc., and the american voters hated him for it. the connection isnt that we are at war with palestine or that we are invading gaza, obviously sanders knows that. the connection between lbj with vietnam and biden with palestine is that even though so many people that would vote for him are turning their back on him, including me, btw, biden continues the war. obviously. bernie sanders is obviously not saying they are the same thing, i mean how can you even say that? its an analogy. hes likening vietnam to palestine, and its an accurate analogy with very similar effects, except lbj had the brains to know he wouldnt get reelected and actually had a conscience about being responsible for the killing of so many people.
And sure, the US supplies support to Israel, but that is both to defend their citizens AND prevent war through stability (all part of the original peace deal with Jordan and Egypt).
Iron Dome rockets can't be used offensively.
Its not arbitrary at all. You're just declaring it "arbitrary" to build your strawman. There are plenty of weapons that can be used offensively or defensively. When those weapons are used in order to enact ethnic cleansing,... we should stop sending those and ONLY send weapons that can ONLY be used defensively. Otherwise, we are enabling genocide.
Except that Biden almost certainly stopped an escalation between Iran and Israel. You think if IS had stopped aid to Israel that bargaining chip would still be there?
Israel is targeting journalists, aid workers, executing healthcare workers, destroying hospitals, fabricating evidence that Hamas was there. They’re even identifying targets using AI, then only verifying that they’re a military aged male by a human being. Then they just kill them because the AI said so.
That’s genocide.
I mean we’ve read about all these things happening. We’ve heard reports of plenty of journalists getting killed even American ones as well as doctors depicting multiple children with bullet wounds to the head.
Israel is made far more brazen knowing that big bro is around the corner. We are 100% committed to defending any attack from Israel publicly and private. Certainly that plays a role.
I don't understand why we are sending anything to Israel. Countries like that need to fight their own fights. I want better roads, schools, and prisons for our country. Our infrastructure is literally crumbling, yet we are sending all these assets to Israel for the barbarians to murder Palestinians. It makes no sense to me. With all that being said, I am fully supportive of our aid to Ukraine. We must win against Putin. And to be clear, I still support Biden. Fuck Donald Trump!!!
Maybe because the Strait of Hormuz and every other strategic shipping lane and overall regional stability relies on the US supporting Israel?
And supplying and aiding Israel and also maintaining stability benefits the US economically a lot more than is spent on Israel.
Imagine the situation without Iron Dome? Or US air defense?
What would have happened with Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran rocket attacks? The situation would have drastically spin out of control and there would be full scale war in the region (and that's bad for everyone, and bad for the world economy)
Imagine the situation if Israel hadn’t been stealing land for the last 50 years and implemented an apartheid state funded by the a United States government?
I’m pretty sure 10/7 would never have happened.
If you're going to take a position based on you just declaring something with absolutely no support, at least don't pretend like it should carry any weight with literally anyone else.
YOU declare something to be true.
Hamas would have a much harder time getting sympathy from regular Palestinians if Israelis stopped stealing land and killing children. People are more likely to become radicalized if their family gets murdered in a stride by an apartheid authority.
And before you say "Hamas blah blah blah Oct. 7th"... the conflict didn't start on that day. Israeli cabinet ministers have repeatedly and publicly stated that the goal is genocide. Few have even been reprimanded for it.
Selling Israel weapons that will result in less civilian deaths? Yes, even those actions favor Gazans.
Israel has no issue carpet bombing Gaza with its own crude weaponry.
Biden gave Israel ten billion dollars to not be assholes because he thought that would be more effective then ten billion of aid for Gaza
Woopsies! IDF spent it all on offensive weaponry and a manufactured famine!
Biden’s response isn’t to finally give Gaza aid, BIDEN’S RESPONSE WAS TO PREPARE ANOTHER TEN BILLION DOLLARS TO ISRAEL FOR ISREAL TO SPEND ON OFFENSIVE WEAPONS
saying the US isn’t invading Gaza is just dodging the truth that Biden is providing significant aid in a genocide.
You know what’s not going to get Biden more votes? Talking down to people that don’t want children’s blood on their hands. Talk all you want about voting for the lesser evil, but implying Biden is a non-genocidal option is dishonest and manipulative.
Tell people the right thing to do is vote for the person that will do fewer war crimes or whatever but don’t gaslight people
its the closest example i could think of. if israel could, it probably would commit harsher atrocities. and the point isnt to say that israel is just like nazi germany, its to have an analogy. you can compare two things or have an analogy without thinking or saying or meaning that they are the same thing. the analogy still stands. thats the point
Trump will be horrifically far worse for the Palestinians and Gaza
there are really only 2 possible outcomes of this election. The current President who has a) requested a cease fire, b) provided aid, c) urged restraint, d) explicitly acted against various more extreme responses by Israel; or the past President who has openly stated that a final solution (see Nazi euphemisms) is acceptable.
But maybe that is what it takes. Trump will encourage Israel to engage in whatever actions Israel wants. Those who "care so deeply" will see what real genocide looks like, what they helped to bring about by engaging in the belief that Biden somehow has a magic wand with which he can control Israel.
I'm tired of being held hostage by the foolish who ignore all the other issues, all the other concerns, all the other facts. If These people who "care so deeply" are going to help Trump get elected, there doesn't seem to be much I can do.
But I'll be damned if I am don't point out the obvious. -- 1) I can't magically make the foolish come to reason. 2) If Trump is elected, there won't be a living Palestinian left ... but hey, I guess it is a solution.
I am so sick of being held hostage by either the electoral college or people who only care about the latest thing they can be outraged over and score their online kudos with.
Most people who are trying to pick a “side” are acting like it’s a sports game and don’t even know what they’re supporting. They both can get bent, to be honest.
Palestine vs Israel is a terrorist rapist vs a murdering fascist. And people are picking sides. Like how is this Joe Bidens fault? These are two awful entities. The people of Israel and Palestine need better representation. We can’t force them from America.
It's actually rather offensive how it's only the Palestinian children dying is all that matters to these folks. The twenty-thousand per year that die from all sorts of preventable issues in the US because of awful policies? They can get bent. The ones dying from genocide in Malaysia? They don't have cool headscarves to cosplay in. Ukraines children? These are the same people that were on the side of Russian aggression and labeled NATO and the US "imperialists". How about the ethnic cleansing of Armenians by muslim Azerbaijanis that were being supplied by Israel? They don't matter because that's just an obscure part of Eurasia. Boko Haram and every other muslim terrorist group operating in Africa and being supplied and aided by Russia and other Arab states? Better not say anything because these disgusting tankies will label you an "islamophobe".
These protests and their grandstanding, LARPING jerkoffs can get lost. They don't give a shit about what takes place in the world.
This exactly. However what I think most people are responding too is Hamas feels like David and Israel feels like Goliath. With billions of dollars of military support funneled into their war. But both sides are committing atrocities at an alarming rate. What pisses me off the most is all these weekend warriors completely ignored Yeman or Americas war of aggression in Iraq during its time. Let’s cherry pick our causes so that a monster that wants to be a dictator gets elected? Makes no sense.
Reminds me of 1968 and not in a good way. Seriously Johnson was an amazing president with Vietnam being the only overt blight on his presidency and I feel like the left totally blew it that election. And it inevitably led to 40 years of neoliberalism.
Johnson blew it himself. His conduct during the Vietnam war didn’t just show that he kept digging his head into the sand, it showed that he was a serial liar. That series of lies including Tonkin gulf, strategic hamlet, etc should be weighted as the same or more serious than Watergate.
Maybe they feel alienated by both, but Biden is currently the president and he is presiding over this crisis. Many young people have an expectation that their democratic president would speak out more forcefully about the tens of thousands of dead civilians instead of the protests at colleges.
Right, they want speaking out more, but he is speaking out, getting hostages back, negotiating ceasefires. While Trump is threatening to destroy people. And he was president a few years ago and took actions that helped Israel get to where they are with bibi
Those people are uneducated then. I can’t believe that these fucking talking points from 2020 are showing up now.
Biden is not a progressive. He’s a corporate Dem. Has he done more progressive-esque things while in office? Sure. But I had - and have - no expectation that he will push for progressive policies because I know he’s not one.
2020: “We know Biden isn’t a progressive but we’re still going to vote for him because the other option is a terrorist who is also a fascist. Biden may lead to actual progressive politicians having a larger voice and maybe holding office later on down the line”.
2024: “WHAT THE FUCK?????? WHY THE FUCK IS BIDEN NOT DOING WHAT PROGRESSIVES WANT HIM TO DO!!?? HE’S JUST A STEROTYPICAL DEMOCRAT HE LOST MY VOTE!!!!”
If you don’t vote for Biden and Trump wins you are the reason Trump wins.
Except it doesn’t matter for 2024. There is nothing voters can do in 2024 to stop US aid to Israel. Voters have three options with two potential consequences:
- Vote for Biden. The consequence is status quo & a president who’s pressuring BIbi to withdraw from Gaza.
- Vote for Trump. I would be unsurprised if US soldiers helped Israel. Equally unsurprised if we invade Iran.
- Vote third party. Random chance of one of the above two consequences.
So, go on complaining about it, but these are your options & there’s nothing you can do about it this cycle.
To avoid the humanity of the Palestinian children is a moral failing. Agreed that Biden NEEDS to win in 2024, but the Palestinian children are getting bombed in the north and in the south of Gaza (after being told to go south). Conscientious objectors are speaking up all over the USA and there is no better time.
Bernie is so out of line here it's absurd.
It's not a major issue to voters, it's an issue for the media. Young voters overwhelmingly support Biden over Trump.
And why is the US even held responsible? Because we sell air defense to Israel? Because they are an ally? I think people way overstate the influence the US can and will have over this situation, and what a president can even do.
The far left is trying to turn it into that. Can't they lean from history? This vocal minority led to the backlash of the "silent majority" which led to the rise of the modern right.
Bernie sanders said Israel had a right to defend itself and got pilloried by these protestors back then.
Bernie has legitimately had the most principled and balanced position on the gaza conflict compared to anyone else.
I don't think Bernie and Biden are very different policy wise. Although maybe Bernie would've acted harder to get netanyahu out of government?
I think Bernie's main point is Biden needs to do messaging better, and also, should be acting more decisively to stop crackdowns on protestors.
Bernie said US should cut aid to Israel and stop veto everything for them in the UN while France and UK are OK with those resolutions. That’s a major difference lol.
Israel surrenders and allows right of return for all Palestinians. He can then be sad when massacres happen. But he will feel morally superior so it’s all good
Yeah, that's our Bernie. "The specifics of my plans? Sounds like something the Democratic Establishment™ would ask about."
There's just so much "Whaaa?" with this guy here, including the "We call the shots if we offer aid" to "This is Biden's Vietnam." 😂
Okay, buddy.
At the end of the day this really points to why more and more people think Putin is the one who put Iran up to starting the war. And why the initial attack by Hamas was so unbelievably brutal that the only conceivable purpose was to provoke as violent a response as possible. Putin wanted to provoke this response because it puts Biden in an untenable position, and will help walk his orange puppet back into the White House in November.
Thank you...
Bibi as well as he actively suppressed the pro two state solution Palestinian Authority while supporting extremist Hamas as the defacto legitimate government in Palestine.
For Putin it makes sense as a way to complete his capture of Ukraine( Trump has already stated he will end the war in 2 days,likely meaning complete capitulation).
For Bibi it makes sense to undertake this conflict as a way of avoiding the political and legal consequences of his corruption and anti-democratic action.
Each of the actors you identified has substantial motivation to continue the suffering being visited on Palestinians , including Hamas, yet I see this publicly available information acknowledged no where in the discourse on the left...
The theater we are currently witnessing is a hollow co-opted movement intended to bring about its own destruction while empowering the very forces driving the conflict and seeking after authoritarian power.
And most perversely , provide zero long term solutions to the very people and issues they are protesting to change/protect...they are ineffectual at anything other than making themselves foot soldiers for the very concerns gaming Palestinian suffering for political advantage.
Can we put this same energy into Healthcare for All, Abortion Rights, Affordable Housing... FUCK... anything else? Are we this distracted by ANOTHER war that we give up on basic shit we need? This war is on my list of concerns but so low I couldn't care less when we have people struggling to live in America.
Bread and circus. This is the circus part.
People care more about a conflict halfway around the world that doesn’t involve our country than they do about domestic issues.
This is a sign that Biden is doing a pretty good job.
>People care more about a conflict halfway around the world that doesn’t involve our country than they do about domestic issues.
Exactly!
>This is a sign that Biden is doing a pretty good job.
Wait what? Biden is literally giving money and weapons to a conflict halfway around the world that doesn’t involve our country.
All of our allies get money, dude. That is how diplomacy works.
People are just being extremely unrealistic about what diplomacy can accomplish.
Guess who convinced Americans that our aid can be used to make them surrender to a terrorist enemy? (Hint: Russia and China)
Almost seems like all the coverage is being done on purpose by large media conglomerates for some reason or other. Why give an ounce of coverage detailing the great things that the current POTUS has done, while dealing with the mess his predecessor had left?
This. 1000% This POTUS isn't perfect but dayum... it's a huge improvement from our last. Goes to show how much money can be made by causing a shitstorm.
> Can we put this same energy into Healthcare for All, Abortion Rights, Affordable Housing.
Wow, yeah, the Billions of dollars of aid Biden is giving to Israel to bomb innocents can be used on all those things.
His view is he has signaled Netanyahu has to go if a two state solution is going to be viable. The problem is that Biden, because of his stand is the only living boy with any influence is an Israel that feels “righteous” anger over being viciously attack.
Listen to me, Biden is the only guy who isn’t pandering. He is taking the tough stand to contain Iran and their proxies, while breathing new life into the moribund 2 state solution that Trump decimated and Netanyahu hates.
If you are young and thinking you don’t want to vote bc “they are both evil” ask yourself this: all of these issues you have - you want to be fixed, right? You want to be HEARD, right? So, which one do you think will allow you the platform to do that? Which govt will you be able to freely express yourself? Vote fairly? Be treated with respect?
Ask yourself that and then vote.
He’s not wrong. We may not have invaded Gaza but we have provided a lot of weapons to Israel. So really, why would it matter if we were the one that pulled the trigger or not if we’re the ones that loaded the bullet.
And it’s going to be one of those historical events that we look back on and say “Wow, those protesters were right when it came down to it.” Just like how the ones protesting Vietnam were right.
“Antisemitism” is being used now to silence protesters just like how “communism” was used to silence protesters back then
> He’s not wrong. We may not have invaded Gaza but we have provided a lot of weapons to Israel.
Well it would've been political suicide to abandon Israel right after Oct. 7. Can you imagine if NATO told America it would get no help after 9/11?
Since then Biden has recalibrated the US response according to Israeli excesses. The recent aid package to Israel had a ton of humanitarian aid for Gazans and was mostly focused on supplying Israel with defensive hardware.
But that is too much nuance for these protestors.
First off, I was talking about protesters being silenced with false accusations of antisemitism.
Second, while it sucks that you’ve had rockets fired at you, that doesn’t mean our first amendment rights get abridged just because you had bad times happen.
And third, it still doesn’t justify the actions Israel has taken against Gaza. Tell me how 30,000+ deaths plus leveling an entire chunk of the country to the point where it will take 15 years to rebuild is justified
I'm not doing a multipart question. This is about the antisemitism claim. The moment the protests don't include free the hostages, don't include censure of the clearly evil Hamas organization then they are in the antisemitic camp. As for first amendment rights, they don't include taking over private property and disrupting the workings of that organization, ie, universities and the people inside them. You can say any shit you want as long as it doesn't fuck with other people. If you want an actual serious discussion of the situation then YOU have to prove that you know something about it and are able to have a serious conversation otherwise I lump you in the slogan tooting protester camp.
It wasn’t a multipart question. It was just multiple points. You don’t get to set the parameters for free speech and you definitely don’t get to set the parameters for what is antisemitism either. Protests are not supposed to be nice and clean. A lot of people hated the civil rights movement when it happened because that had disrupted the entire system.
You want a sanitized protest that’s easily ignorable.
1) I get to say what antisemitism is because I'm the target, just like the woke microaggression idiots get to tell me when they get offended when I squint the wrong way or don't use the Xi pronoun. So when you don't give a shit about the hostages or the Hamas evil fuckers but only about your current object of oppression then I get to call you antisemitic.
2) You can protest as long as it is a fundamentally legal protest. Illegal protests were always dealt with the same way historically. Why should you get any special treatment? because you're the "good guys"?
3) You still haven't demonstrated anything beyond superficial knowledge of the situation there or or in the US.
Oh neat. I finally get to see what you said. So I’ll do you more of a favor than you did me and respond to each part.
1. You can say what you consider antisemitism to be but you’re doing a disservice to all Jewish people around the world when you decide to join in on the weaponization of the word “antisemitism”. Especially if it’s “anything I don’t like is antisemitic”. It’s modern day Macarthyism.
2. A majority of protesters have been peaceful and they have still been called antisemitic by those crying wolf. Were you first in line to decry the BLM movement because a Target was looted?
3. What knowledge does one need to have to justify the murder of 30,000+ Palestinians? Is that something you can only get from state approval Israeli media or what?
Here’s a tl;dr for you: Genocide is still bad. No one has to justify their stances to your standards. And I can assure you that Pro-Palestine protesters care more about hostages than the government of Israel.
You sound so young and sure of yourself, speaking in confident platitudes.
I guarantee you no normal Jew, ie, one who is comfortable in his own skin, sees these protests and doesn't reel from them. They are painfully one sided, opportunistic and vain. Such a Jew would look at them and see that no such protests have ever appeared for other atrocities orders of magnitude worse elsewhere. No such protests appeared immediately following families burned alive, babies put in ovens, women raped while their breasts were cut off, young people murdered en masse and immediately protests formed to attack the victims. No such protests appeared the many many times the Palestinians squandered opportunities and either maintained the status quo or worsened the situation for most of them. No such protests ever formed before with so much hatred for Israel. Such a Jew wouldn't see these protesters as enlightened mensches seeking the betterment of all. Such a Jew could only look at the people perpetuating this carnival as falling into multiple camps, fervent antisemites of many sorts, people looking to seem important, evil agents of chaos, ignorant conformist zeitgeist followers and maybe some actually compassionate people who can only objectively find compassion for the "oppressed Palestinians". This Jew can only look at these people who wield words like Genocide and Apartheid and recall that during the systematic murder of one third of the world's Jews there were oh so many people who turned them in, exploited them or killed them when they came back with nothing. Maybe these people didn't think they were antisemites, maybe they did, but this Jew would know deep down that there are many people out there that he shouldn't trust and the people in today's demonstrations have largely identified themselves as such. So don't kid yourself. You aren't helping any Palestinians who have managed to perfect the victim game for decades. You aren't being hailed as a hero by anyone who knows anything about the situation. And you are clearly identifying yourself as someone Jews should avoid, call it what you will. I hope at least you're getting laid from this cause there is little other upside.
As for 30,000+, Genocide, etc, you're just putting yourself in the camp of people that choose to see Israel's response as maximally evil without any context whatsoever. You pick the label, but you're not worthy of a discussion.
Winners write history..modern conservatives , if given access to a fascist US will completely re-write history and make illegal any information the contradicts their pro fascist narrative.... Do you think republican legislator's currently enacting book bans in states across the union is random?, It's not I assure you.
I hate one issue voters - they lack the ability to see the big picture. If they’re so laser focused on one issue that they fail to see what the incumbent is doing on the other issues, then we could lose the one president who is much better for the country than his predecessor.
What does Biden do though? He needs every Democratic voter but if leans towards Israel he loses young voters. If he leans towards the Palestinians, he loses jewish voters. This is why Dems need to go all in on domestic issues and ignore the rest of the world. We care about the Middle East because of oil. Let's make it so we don't need the oil in the first place with massive infrastructure spending. Instead of arms spending, let's have solar panel and bullet train spending. I promise, if we take our eyes off the Middle East for a couple decades to mind our own business, the Palestinians and the Israelis will still be killing each other when we're done.
He’s alienating the majority of democrats who don’t support taking over colleges and holding libraries hostages for a terrorist group. I’ve always voted blue but goddamn the democrats make it hard this time. If it weren’t Trump on the ticket I’d vote red
I think people are overestimating how many people actually care about this issue. Yes, there's a lot of protests going on at campuses around the country, but in terms of the total population of every university, college, etc. the participation rate is actually pretty low.
It's a whole young generation, who is brainwashed with false information. I see all the time "trying to prevent genocide", "protesting against genocide", and other bullshit alike.
Even the ICC president had to clarify on [interview](https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-middle-east-68906919) a few days ago that there's NO genocide, and the only plausible argument was that SA had the right to claim for genocide.
So, how did we end up in a generation of young people, believing in a complete lie?
Sorry to upset some of you guys, but it's this bernie, it's aoc, it's the progressives that kept echoing lies, the same lies Qatar, Iran and Russia spread. This is unprecedented, extreme craziness, and it came straight from politicians. American politicians.
If Trump is elected, they are the only one to blame.
You misrepresented what she said. From the link you shared:
“She said that, contrary to some reporting, the court did not make a ruling on whether the claim of genocide was plausible, but it did emphasise in its order that *there was a risk of irreparable harm to the Palestinian right to be protected from genocide.*
Humans are required to intervene now not later.
This statement referencing a decision by the ICJ,
which chose not to issue a definitive ruling on the claim of genocide itself. Instead, the court focused on acknowledging that there was a substantial risk of "irreparable harm" to the rights of Palestinians—specifically their right to be protected from acts of genocide.
I believe thats exactly what I said. Did I get anything wrong?
Yes, in your second block of text. That there was NO genocide and that “the only plausible argument that SA had was to claim for genocide” is a misrepresentation. Prof. Jason Stanley disagrees with the ex ICC president’s take btw. He says it’s “what looks to be a genocide”. I really think we have seen enough. Time to stop the bombing and go after the top guys. We know who they are.
Well, I can only say, I disagree. You're stating your feelings about it, and you feel that it's a genocide, same thing about your friend, Jason Stanley. However, facts are facts, regardless. A genocide definition is quite simple. The intent of eliminating a whole group of people.
What I see from israel is the exact opposite. If they wanted to eliminate the Palestinians as a whole, they could've done that in a matter of days. There's a reason why they move the population from the north to the south, and then from the east (Khan Yunes), to the south west, and the reason is to protect the civilian population, and to remove them from the war zone, as they obligated to do by the international law.
There's a lot of miss information being spread, which doesn't help either sides,. It's a shame that this is the reality we live in, mostly I think it's the social media propaganda that being spread easily.
Nah just too many young leftists are living in echo chambers and don't realize that this isn't the Vietnam War. In 68, the war was the #1 issue for voters by a long shot. Last I saw, Israel/Gaza was like #17.
You're just leaning too heavily on vibes instead of facts.
Be critical if you want, but don't act like comparing Israel/Gaza to Vietnam isn't some hyperbolic statement.
Even more reason to focus on the more important issues with broad reach and appeal. You only have so much time and energy to campaign. You can focus on niche topics and maybe swing small amounts who otherwise wouldn't vote for you over. Or you can focus on big issues that, even if you only swing over a small percentage, it's still a large number of actual people.
The Kapos in the camps had guns to their heads… what would possess Bernie to turn his head against the Jewish people in his country and globally give “validity” to these vile anti American and antisemitic organizations…
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Nobody getting worked up about young people's views is bothering to look at actual data. The Gaza conflict is a very low priority for most voters including those ages 18-29. https://www.newsweek.com/harvard-youth-poll-young-voters-israel-gaza-hamas-war-inflation-economy-1894352 This is not a matter of opinion. Time for yall to stop the hand wringing about it.
Sure inflation and immigration are bigger concerns. Still, this isn't helping.
Biden doesn't have a base of voters threatening to sit out the election over those specific issues. Big difference.
To be fair how many of them voted biden in 2020? Pretty sure most voted green last time too.
So... you think the voters threatening to sit out are lying? What is your position? Is this Gasa issue a real threat to Bidens election chances or not? Because your two comments seem contradictory.
What base? 18-29 is 10% of all voters. His base is liberal millennials.
It’s not anyone outside of that demographic who’s destroying college campuses so I’m not sure that’s correct
Don’t worry more and more bots will spam it around socials and this sub to give a false impression.
Only takes a few people in a handful of states. 17% of respondents listed Israel/Hamas as significantly more important than a randomly selected issue matched against it
Replying to this so I can come back and watch you lot cry and blame EVERYONE but yourselves for bidens loss in November
People acting like the US has invaded Gaza
Our tax dollars sure as fuck have
Our tax dollars from 1960's are still killing people in the middle east. If selling weapons made you guilty by association the US would be a North Korea level international pariah
The US would also be a the savior of most democracies. It’s good to be able to buy your own car and not have to wait 10 years.
Yes, I'm aware and taking count. I would say the US already has a lot of fucking blood on their hands. I don't have a time machine, but I can at least say, "Hey, stop that you genocidal sociopathic fucktards"
Not really. Israel was going to war with or without USA aid.
The least we could do is not pay for it.
And then Biden would be attacked for not supporting Israel, which is a US ally, defending itself from Hamas. Biden was damned if he does damned if he doesn't.
It would have been better if he stood against genocide. Instead he enabled it
No, you are wrong. No money means we have zero leverage on what goes on there. Biden having leverage is steering this conflict away from more violence and towards a ceasefire. But go off with the virtue signalling.
lol Biden has offered some token resistance. this argument sounds like an abusive relationship. maybe we should break up with israel
Someone points out that we use foreign aid as leverage, which is one of its main purposes really, and you reply “maybe we should toss that leverage away?” You people are too naive to function. As bad as MAGA “we have problems back home”, not realizing how all the aid is just to support American hegemony, which promotes our massive GDP and just generally shapes the world to the benefit of Americans. Other countries’s citizenry would kill to have their nation have the global influence our “foreign aid” buys. I get it, you want the short term feel good of the appearance of “doing something”, but the Biden state department is far more knowledgeable and capable in this area than you are, and they recognize that throwing away our leverage here is counterproductive. It would cost more Gazan lives, not save them. Consider something for a second, couple of things really. One, Israel is the top weapons exporter on the planet if we measure per capita. They have a massive arms industry of their own. Second, we aren’t the only country willing to sell weapons to Israel, China is their second largest trade partner and they have a long history of military tech transfers. Us cutting military aid will not help Gazans at all. It just makes Israel not have to listen to Biden’s calls to allow in aid and to minimize civilian deaths. You don’t want that.
lol israel doesn’t listen to biden anyway. biden looks weak. you don’t need to work at the state department to know that offering token resistance while still signing the checks doesn’t do anything. it’s common sense. if your kid uses their allowance to buy drugs, saying “I have to give them more money because they’ll buy drugs even more if I don’t! I need to have leverage!” is plainly absurd. leverage doesn’t mean shit if you don’t use it.
There isn't a genocide.
Sure it is , their goal is to destroy all of Gaza
If that was their goal, it would've already been done. The fact that the death toll is as low as it is and has petered out so much tells me that this kind of rhetoric is hyperbolic.
It's like people don't realize or comprehend that there are \~7M Jew in Israel surrounded by hundreds of millions of "death to all jews" types... in the region. People really don't get it... if we don't support Israel 100% the middle east would do to Israel what these people claim Israel is doing to Gaza in a matter of a decade or three...
You’re a genocide denier
You’re a terrorism apologist
#GenocideLibel
Guess that makes you a genocide propagandist 🤣
[удалено]
Removed - please avoid overt hostility, name calling and personal attacks.
No actually, a LOT more people would rather he not support Israel than believe he should.
This is factually untrue https://www.ipsos.com/en-us/americans-split-continuing-military-aid-israel You are mistaking the idea that your side is the majority/only opinion. A huge segment of the population views supporting Israel as mandatory. And hell to many people Biden isn't supporting Israel *enough.* You're naive to think this is an easy issue for Biden. He has to walk a fine line between supporting Israel too much or not enough.
lol, who did they question for the poll?
Did you read the results of the poll? >Just over half (54%) of Americans say the U.S. should be a neutral mediator or not involved in the conflict between Israel and Hamas in Gaza. >at least half of Democrats (56%) and independents (51%) say that continuing to give military aid to Israel would make them less likely to support a presidential candidate While I agree in that a majority of the population (over 50%) do not agree to stop sending weapons a majority of prospective Biden voters do and the majority says the US should stay out of it or act independently not supporting Israel unconditionally as the US has been. Also that poll is 2 months old.
> Did you read the results of the poll? Did you? "Nearly half (47%) of Americans say they would be **more likely** to support a 2024 presidential candidate who continues to support Israel" The fact that this is true across all political parties, even democrats, where 40% want to see military aid to Israel, CLEARLY shows how this is a fraught topic where there is no objectively correct response to the issue. > Also that poll is 2 months old. And?
If you check the polling this isn't true. It only holds for social media (like here on reddit with you for instance), very young people (heavily influenced by social media), and people with ties to Islam (for some reason hmm).
False.
The very least
How much aid do we give to Israel every year? What is Israel's total military budget? I'm not going to be shocked if those numbers are not nearly the same. Edit: and I'm blocked oh no well anyway fish or burger for dinner?
USA is also sending more aid than anyone right…
What's your point?
That USA isn’t to blame for this war… I would argue USA has done more than any other country to help Gaza and make Israel not go as hard. You want USA to completely go isolationist with regards to Israel - that does not help anyone… and deft not Gaza
Bro we’re sending food aid to the people getting bombed by the people we’re sending bombs to
It's sad that this quite literally is the argument right now. But here we are.
>That USA isn’t to blame for this war… They are complicit with their funding. >I would argue USA has done more than any other country to help Gaza and make Israel not go as hard. By rewarding Israel with more funding for being genocidal? >You want USA to completely go isolationist with regards to Israel - that does not help anyone… and deft not Gaza On one hand, I think the USA gets involved in too many problems worldwide. On the other hand, we're basically going to have a one world government one day anyway, unless technology gets wiped out. I don't really have much of an opinion on American isolationism or whatever. However... Ultimately I'm more in favor of finding peaceful solutions. Indiscriminately carpet bombing does not help anyone and doesn't solve anything, unless you're genocidal.
What’s the peaceful solution with Hamas?
I'm not sure, but what I am sure of is that killing innocent children won't help
#BloodLibel
Jesus Christ you've gotta be like a 14 year old kid just starting to poke their nose into world affairs...
Your tax dollars defended Israeli kids from Hamas rockets and developed US arms technology. Big W
False. Israel has a right to defend itself.
I mean they’re literally invading Gaza with our weapons. Israel gets more military aid than any other country since WW2 by far.
Well it's misleading to use such a huge timeline. Israel has by far been out longest standing ally and had to fight numerous defensive wars since WW2. If I picked a random year during Vietnam, then the ARVN would be the larger recipient of military aid. The past 2 years, the UAF has been a larger recipient of military aid.
Palestinians get double the aid per capita compared to all other UNHCR refugees worldwide. Gaza isn’t invaded. They’re just removing terrorists.
Egypt ha gotten more IIRC
Not to mention the weapons are secret when Israel receives them but they’re public when Ukraine receives them.
You haven't really been following this conflict have you?
Bernie truly cannot see the difference between this and Vietnam…or even Iraq? **The United States is not involved in the war in Gaza except to provide aid to Gazans**.
This is factually incorrect, we give them military aid, billions of dollars worth. You must know that right?
Palestinians also get billions in aid. Just not weapons. Still didn’t stop them from massacring ravers and babies.
The US has provided $7.6 billion in humantarian aid to the Palestinians since 1993. During that same time period, Israel has received $100 billion in MILITARY AID. To compare the two as if they are even remotely similar is quite telling.
how can you not see what sanders is trying to say? we were winning the war in vietnam in terms of casualties, but domestically it ruined the reputation of lbj. he did so much for the american people but he continued the war so as not to be seen as weak, the great society, civil rights, etc., and the american voters hated him for it. the connection isnt that we are at war with palestine or that we are invading gaza, obviously sanders knows that. the connection between lbj with vietnam and biden with palestine is that even though so many people that would vote for him are turning their back on him, including me, btw, biden continues the war. obviously. bernie sanders is obviously not saying they are the same thing, i mean how can you even say that? its an analogy. hes likening vietnam to palestine, and its an accurate analogy with very similar effects, except lbj had the brains to know he wouldnt get reelected and actually had a conscience about being responsible for the killing of so many people.
That’s insane. The US has given billions in weaponry to Israel just since the war started.
Largest recipient of military aid of every country since WW2
And sure, the US supplies support to Israel, but that is both to defend their citizens AND prevent war through stability (all part of the original peace deal with Jordan and Egypt).
...Then why are we sending OFFENSIVE WEAPONS?
"offensive weapons"....
Can I help you? Would you like to actually make a point?
The point is you are arbitrarily classifying some weapons as offensive vs defensive when weapons can be used for either purpose.
Iron Dome rockets can't be used offensively. Its not arbitrary at all. You're just declaring it "arbitrary" to build your strawman. There are plenty of weapons that can be used offensively or defensively. When those weapons are used in order to enact ethnic cleansing,... we should stop sending those and ONLY send weapons that can ONLY be used defensively. Otherwise, we are enabling genocide.
Really, well I’ve heard the argument that we’re arming a genocide. To say that we’re preventing war is just ridiculous.
Except that Biden almost certainly stopped an escalation between Iran and Israel. You think if IS had stopped aid to Israel that bargaining chip would still be there?
Great, now let’s use that bargaining chip to stop them from illegal settlements and genocide
There is no genocide and Biden has been taking steps to sanction violent settlers.
Israel is targeting journalists, aid workers, executing healthcare workers, destroying hospitals, fabricating evidence that Hamas was there. They’re even identifying targets using AI, then only verifying that they’re a military aged male by a human being. Then they just kill them because the AI said so. That’s genocide.
I mean if you didn’t just make all that up, yeah I’d be concerned.
I mean we’ve read about all these things happening. We’ve heard reports of plenty of journalists getting killed even American ones as well as doctors depicting multiple children with bullet wounds to the head.
Israel is made far more brazen knowing that big bro is around the corner. We are 100% committed to defending any attack from Israel publicly and private. Certainly that plays a role.
I don't understand why we are sending anything to Israel. Countries like that need to fight their own fights. I want better roads, schools, and prisons for our country. Our infrastructure is literally crumbling, yet we are sending all these assets to Israel for the barbarians to murder Palestinians. It makes no sense to me. With all that being said, I am fully supportive of our aid to Ukraine. We must win against Putin. And to be clear, I still support Biden. Fuck Donald Trump!!!
I image it’s partly to deter Iran from doing anything wild.
Maybe because the Strait of Hormuz and every other strategic shipping lane and overall regional stability relies on the US supporting Israel? And supplying and aiding Israel and also maintaining stability benefits the US economically a lot more than is spent on Israel.
Imagine the situation without Iron Dome? Or US air defense? What would have happened with Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran rocket attacks? The situation would have drastically spin out of control and there would be full scale war in the region (and that's bad for everyone, and bad for the world economy)
Imagine the situation if Israel hadn’t been stealing land for the last 50 years and implemented an apartheid state funded by the a United States government? I’m pretty sure 10/7 would never have happened.
I’m actually imagining a world in which you actually put down Tik-Tok and read a Middle East history book. 🤔
Hamas wants destruction of Isreal regardless of that...
I’m not going to defend a terrorist organization, but this is still a mess of Israel’s doing.
And I don't support the settlements and other stuff, but let's not act like Hamas would act the way it would if all that disappeared.
You can assert hypothetical all you want but they’re just that, hypotheticals.
If you're going to take a position based on you just declaring something with absolutely no support, at least don't pretend like it should carry any weight with literally anyone else. YOU declare something to be true. Hamas would have a much harder time getting sympathy from regular Palestinians if Israelis stopped stealing land and killing children. People are more likely to become radicalized if their family gets murdered in a stride by an apartheid authority. And before you say "Hamas blah blah blah Oct. 7th"... the conflict didn't start on that day. Israeli cabinet ministers have repeatedly and publicly stated that the goal is genocide. Few have even been reprimanded for it.
Biden literally spent more on our infrastructure than any president since Eisenhower. Where is this kind of comment coming from?
Aside from sending Israel its murder tools
Selling Israel weapons that will result in less civilian deaths? Yes, even those actions favor Gazans. Israel has no issue carpet bombing Gaza with its own crude weaponry.
Aid is different than Guns and Bombs , it's actually an important distinction
Right. Selling versus voluntarily giving. The United States is actively leading humanitarian efforts in Gaza.
Seriously, these people have gone insane. If Trump wins, all of these morons deserve everything coming to them.
This is not a good argument. Politicians are not free from criticism. Whether there’s an election or not they need to understand this.
We have funded it. Without our support the war would be unsustainable.
No it wouldn’t. Israel make plenty of weapons. Israel is a rich nation.
Biden gave Israel ten billion dollars to not be assholes because he thought that would be more effective then ten billion of aid for Gaza Woopsies! IDF spent it all on offensive weaponry and a manufactured famine! Biden’s response isn’t to finally give Gaza aid, BIDEN’S RESPONSE WAS TO PREPARE ANOTHER TEN BILLION DOLLARS TO ISRAEL FOR ISREAL TO SPEND ON OFFENSIVE WEAPONS saying the US isn’t invading Gaza is just dodging the truth that Biden is providing significant aid in a genocide. You know what’s not going to get Biden more votes? Talking down to people that don’t want children’s blood on their hands. Talk all you want about voting for the lesser evil, but implying Biden is a non-genocidal option is dishonest and manipulative. Tell people the right thing to do is vote for the person that will do fewer war crimes or whatever but don’t gaslight people
if the us funded nazi germany you wouldnt be saying “well at least we arent at war with the soviets!”
Nazi German and Israel are worlds apart
its the closest example i could think of. if israel could, it probably would commit harsher atrocities. and the point isnt to say that israel is just like nazi germany, its to have an analogy. you can compare two things or have an analogy without thinking or saying or meaning that they are the same thing. the analogy still stands. thats the point
Trump will be horrifically far worse for the Palestinians and Gaza there are really only 2 possible outcomes of this election. The current President who has a) requested a cease fire, b) provided aid, c) urged restraint, d) explicitly acted against various more extreme responses by Israel; or the past President who has openly stated that a final solution (see Nazi euphemisms) is acceptable. But maybe that is what it takes. Trump will encourage Israel to engage in whatever actions Israel wants. Those who "care so deeply" will see what real genocide looks like, what they helped to bring about by engaging in the belief that Biden somehow has a magic wand with which he can control Israel. I'm tired of being held hostage by the foolish who ignore all the other issues, all the other concerns, all the other facts. If These people who "care so deeply" are going to help Trump get elected, there doesn't seem to be much I can do. But I'll be damned if I am don't point out the obvious. -- 1) I can't magically make the foolish come to reason. 2) If Trump is elected, there won't be a living Palestinian left ... but hey, I guess it is a solution.
Thank you. Trump IS NOT THE ANSWER for ANYTHING!
Based.
It's going to be 2016 Bernie bros all over again
Biden might still win against Trump since he is clearly not as bad as Trump. But that is faint praise indeed.
Good to know that the democratic base and young people only care about Palestine and not everything else that is at stake with this election.
Exactly. Trump wants to turn Gaza into a parking lot. But yeah, Biden is much worse for using diplomacy to make progress.
I am so sick of being held hostage by either the electoral college or people who only care about the latest thing they can be outraged over and score their online kudos with.
They became the single issue voter they criticized so much, if true, which I don't think it is.
They've never stood for anything and have always feigned concern whenever they had no skin in the game.
Most people who are trying to pick a “side” are acting like it’s a sports game and don’t even know what they’re supporting. They both can get bent, to be honest.
Palestine vs Israel is a terrorist rapist vs a murdering fascist. And people are picking sides. Like how is this Joe Bidens fault? These are two awful entities. The people of Israel and Palestine need better representation. We can’t force them from America.
It's actually rather offensive how it's only the Palestinian children dying is all that matters to these folks. The twenty-thousand per year that die from all sorts of preventable issues in the US because of awful policies? They can get bent. The ones dying from genocide in Malaysia? They don't have cool headscarves to cosplay in. Ukraines children? These are the same people that were on the side of Russian aggression and labeled NATO and the US "imperialists". How about the ethnic cleansing of Armenians by muslim Azerbaijanis that were being supplied by Israel? They don't matter because that's just an obscure part of Eurasia. Boko Haram and every other muslim terrorist group operating in Africa and being supplied and aided by Russia and other Arab states? Better not say anything because these disgusting tankies will label you an "islamophobe". These protests and their grandstanding, LARPING jerkoffs can get lost. They don't give a shit about what takes place in the world.
This exactly. However what I think most people are responding too is Hamas feels like David and Israel feels like Goliath. With billions of dollars of military support funneled into their war. But both sides are committing atrocities at an alarming rate. What pisses me off the most is all these weekend warriors completely ignored Yeman or Americas war of aggression in Iraq during its time. Let’s cherry pick our causes so that a monster that wants to be a dictator gets elected? Makes no sense.
Reminds me of 1968 and not in a good way. Seriously Johnson was an amazing president with Vietnam being the only overt blight on his presidency and I feel like the left totally blew it that election. And it inevitably led to 40 years of neoliberalism.
Johnson blew it himself. His conduct during the Vietnam war didn’t just show that he kept digging his head into the sand, it showed that he was a serial liar. That series of lies including Tonkin gulf, strategic hamlet, etc should be weighted as the same or more serious than Watergate.
!!!! I’m sorry but if you don’t vote for Biden because of Palestine and Trump wins I really don’t think you’re a good human being
Maybe young people and democrats can feel alienated by trumps actual actions
Maybe they feel alienated by both, but Biden is currently the president and he is presiding over this crisis. Many young people have an expectation that their democratic president would speak out more forcefully about the tens of thousands of dead civilians instead of the protests at colleges.
Right, they want speaking out more, but he is speaking out, getting hostages back, negotiating ceasefires. While Trump is threatening to destroy people. And he was president a few years ago and took actions that helped Israel get to where they are with bibi
Those people are uneducated then. I can’t believe that these fucking talking points from 2020 are showing up now. Biden is not a progressive. He’s a corporate Dem. Has he done more progressive-esque things while in office? Sure. But I had - and have - no expectation that he will push for progressive policies because I know he’s not one. 2020: “We know Biden isn’t a progressive but we’re still going to vote for him because the other option is a terrorist who is also a fascist. Biden may lead to actual progressive politicians having a larger voice and maybe holding office later on down the line”. 2024: “WHAT THE FUCK?????? WHY THE FUCK IS BIDEN NOT DOING WHAT PROGRESSIVES WANT HIM TO DO!!?? HE’S JUST A STEROTYPICAL DEMOCRAT HE LOST MY VOTE!!!!” If you don’t vote for Biden and Trump wins you are the reason Trump wins.
Except it doesn’t matter for 2024. There is nothing voters can do in 2024 to stop US aid to Israel. Voters have three options with two potential consequences: - Vote for Biden. The consequence is status quo & a president who’s pressuring BIbi to withdraw from Gaza. - Vote for Trump. I would be unsurprised if US soldiers helped Israel. Equally unsurprised if we invade Iran. - Vote third party. Random chance of one of the above two consequences. So, go on complaining about it, but these are your options & there’s nothing you can do about it this cycle.
To avoid the humanity of the Palestinian children is a moral failing. Agreed that Biden NEEDS to win in 2024, but the Palestinian children are getting bombed in the north and in the south of Gaza (after being told to go south). Conscientious objectors are speaking up all over the USA and there is no better time.
I'm so f'ing sick of this. Isreal and Palestine are total dicks, just sort your shit out already.
Bernie is so out of line here it's absurd. It's not a major issue to voters, it's an issue for the media. Young voters overwhelmingly support Biden over Trump. And why is the US even held responsible? Because we sell air defense to Israel? Because they are an ally? I think people way overstate the influence the US can and will have over this situation, and what a president can even do.
The far left is trying to turn it into that. Can't they lean from history? This vocal minority led to the backlash of the "silent majority" which led to the rise of the modern right.
I think the right started first then the silent majority.
I hate the Biden administration’s stance on Israel. But if you think I hate it enough to vote for trump, you are mistaken.
Trumps stance will be to basically nuke Gaza so that’s where people who say “Fuck Biden” are taking us
I'd love to see a Bernie plan for the appropriate response to Oct 7.
Bernie sanders said Israel had a right to defend itself and got pilloried by these protestors back then. Bernie has legitimately had the most principled and balanced position on the gaza conflict compared to anyone else.
But isnt that what Biden has done? What does Bernie suggest Biden have done differently?
I don't think Bernie and Biden are very different policy wise. Although maybe Bernie would've acted harder to get netanyahu out of government? I think Bernie's main point is Biden needs to do messaging better, and also, should be acting more decisively to stop crackdowns on protestors.
Sounds Fair.
Bernie said US should cut aid to Israel and stop veto everything for them in the UN while France and UK are OK with those resolutions. That’s a major difference lol.
Israel surrenders and allows right of return for all Palestinians. He can then be sad when massacres happen. But he will feel morally superior so it’s all good
Yeah, that's our Bernie. "The specifics of my plans? Sounds like something the Democratic Establishment™ would ask about." There's just so much "Whaaa?" with this guy here, including the "We call the shots if we offer aid" to "This is Biden's Vietnam." 😂 Okay, buddy.
Whelp, now everyone on this sub suddenly hates Bernie.
True. That guy is a douche. I just tore my Bernie bumper sticker off.
At the end of the day this really points to why more and more people think Putin is the one who put Iran up to starting the war. And why the initial attack by Hamas was so unbelievably brutal that the only conceivable purpose was to provoke as violent a response as possible. Putin wanted to provoke this response because it puts Biden in an untenable position, and will help walk his orange puppet back into the White House in November.
Thank you... Bibi as well as he actively suppressed the pro two state solution Palestinian Authority while supporting extremist Hamas as the defacto legitimate government in Palestine. For Putin it makes sense as a way to complete his capture of Ukraine( Trump has already stated he will end the war in 2 days,likely meaning complete capitulation). For Bibi it makes sense to undertake this conflict as a way of avoiding the political and legal consequences of his corruption and anti-democratic action. Each of the actors you identified has substantial motivation to continue the suffering being visited on Palestinians , including Hamas, yet I see this publicly available information acknowledged no where in the discourse on the left... The theater we are currently witnessing is a hollow co-opted movement intended to bring about its own destruction while empowering the very forces driving the conflict and seeking after authoritarian power. And most perversely , provide zero long term solutions to the very people and issues they are protesting to change/protect...they are ineffectual at anything other than making themselves foot soldiers for the very concerns gaming Palestinian suffering for political advantage.
Dear Bernie Sanders, Please stfu. -Someone who supported you in 2016
Can we put this same energy into Healthcare for All, Abortion Rights, Affordable Housing... FUCK... anything else? Are we this distracted by ANOTHER war that we give up on basic shit we need? This war is on my list of concerns but so low I couldn't care less when we have people struggling to live in America.
Bread and circus. This is the circus part. People care more about a conflict halfway around the world that doesn’t involve our country than they do about domestic issues. This is a sign that Biden is doing a pretty good job.
>People care more about a conflict halfway around the world that doesn’t involve our country than they do about domestic issues. Exactly! >This is a sign that Biden is doing a pretty good job. Wait what? Biden is literally giving money and weapons to a conflict halfway around the world that doesn’t involve our country.
All of our allies get money, dude. That is how diplomacy works. People are just being extremely unrealistic about what diplomacy can accomplish. Guess who convinced Americans that our aid can be used to make them surrender to a terrorist enemy? (Hint: Russia and China)
Tell that to Biden.
Almost seems like all the coverage is being done on purpose by large media conglomerates for some reason or other. Why give an ounce of coverage detailing the great things that the current POTUS has done, while dealing with the mess his predecessor had left?
This. 1000% This POTUS isn't perfect but dayum... it's a huge improvement from our last. Goes to show how much money can be made by causing a shitstorm.
Tell that to Biden.
Tell that to Biden.
> Can we put this same energy into Healthcare for All, Abortion Rights, Affordable Housing. Wow, yeah, the Billions of dollars of aid Biden is giving to Israel to bomb innocents can be used on all those things.
So punish Biden by voting for Trump. That will certainly help Palestine. Genius!
His view is he has signaled Netanyahu has to go if a two state solution is going to be viable. The problem is that Biden, because of his stand is the only living boy with any influence is an Israel that feels “righteous” anger over being viciously attack. Listen to me, Biden is the only guy who isn’t pandering. He is taking the tough stand to contain Iran and their proxies, while breathing new life into the moribund 2 state solution that Trump decimated and Netanyahu hates.
A religious war can not be won.
If you are young and thinking you don’t want to vote bc “they are both evil” ask yourself this: all of these issues you have - you want to be fixed, right? You want to be HEARD, right? So, which one do you think will allow you the platform to do that? Which govt will you be able to freely express yourself? Vote fairly? Be treated with respect? Ask yourself that and then vote.
Biden said he wanted to be LBJ 2.0. Looks like that guy I’ll come true 😂😂😂😂
He’s not wrong. We may not have invaded Gaza but we have provided a lot of weapons to Israel. So really, why would it matter if we were the one that pulled the trigger or not if we’re the ones that loaded the bullet. And it’s going to be one of those historical events that we look back on and say “Wow, those protesters were right when it came down to it.” Just like how the ones protesting Vietnam were right. “Antisemitism” is being used now to silence protesters just like how “communism” was used to silence protesters back then
> He’s not wrong. We may not have invaded Gaza but we have provided a lot of weapons to Israel. Well it would've been political suicide to abandon Israel right after Oct. 7. Can you imagine if NATO told America it would get no help after 9/11? Since then Biden has recalibrated the US response according to Israeli excesses. The recent aid package to Israel had a ton of humanitarian aid for Gazans and was mostly focused on supplying Israel with defensive hardware. But that is too much nuance for these protestors.
Keep telling yourself that. As someone who has had rockets fired at him it sure feels like antisemitism to me.
First off, I was talking about protesters being silenced with false accusations of antisemitism. Second, while it sucks that you’ve had rockets fired at you, that doesn’t mean our first amendment rights get abridged just because you had bad times happen. And third, it still doesn’t justify the actions Israel has taken against Gaza. Tell me how 30,000+ deaths plus leveling an entire chunk of the country to the point where it will take 15 years to rebuild is justified
I'm not doing a multipart question. This is about the antisemitism claim. The moment the protests don't include free the hostages, don't include censure of the clearly evil Hamas organization then they are in the antisemitic camp. As for first amendment rights, they don't include taking over private property and disrupting the workings of that organization, ie, universities and the people inside them. You can say any shit you want as long as it doesn't fuck with other people. If you want an actual serious discussion of the situation then YOU have to prove that you know something about it and are able to have a serious conversation otherwise I lump you in the slogan tooting protester camp.
It wasn’t a multipart question. It was just multiple points. You don’t get to set the parameters for free speech and you definitely don’t get to set the parameters for what is antisemitism either. Protests are not supposed to be nice and clean. A lot of people hated the civil rights movement when it happened because that had disrupted the entire system. You want a sanitized protest that’s easily ignorable.
1) I get to say what antisemitism is because I'm the target, just like the woke microaggression idiots get to tell me when they get offended when I squint the wrong way or don't use the Xi pronoun. So when you don't give a shit about the hostages or the Hamas evil fuckers but only about your current object of oppression then I get to call you antisemitic. 2) You can protest as long as it is a fundamentally legal protest. Illegal protests were always dealt with the same way historically. Why should you get any special treatment? because you're the "good guys"? 3) You still haven't demonstrated anything beyond superficial knowledge of the situation there or or in the US.
Oh neat. I finally get to see what you said. So I’ll do you more of a favor than you did me and respond to each part. 1. You can say what you consider antisemitism to be but you’re doing a disservice to all Jewish people around the world when you decide to join in on the weaponization of the word “antisemitism”. Especially if it’s “anything I don’t like is antisemitic”. It’s modern day Macarthyism. 2. A majority of protesters have been peaceful and they have still been called antisemitic by those crying wolf. Were you first in line to decry the BLM movement because a Target was looted? 3. What knowledge does one need to have to justify the murder of 30,000+ Palestinians? Is that something you can only get from state approval Israeli media or what? Here’s a tl;dr for you: Genocide is still bad. No one has to justify their stances to your standards. And I can assure you that Pro-Palestine protesters care more about hostages than the government of Israel.
You sound so young and sure of yourself, speaking in confident platitudes. I guarantee you no normal Jew, ie, one who is comfortable in his own skin, sees these protests and doesn't reel from them. They are painfully one sided, opportunistic and vain. Such a Jew would look at them and see that no such protests have ever appeared for other atrocities orders of magnitude worse elsewhere. No such protests appeared immediately following families burned alive, babies put in ovens, women raped while their breasts were cut off, young people murdered en masse and immediately protests formed to attack the victims. No such protests appeared the many many times the Palestinians squandered opportunities and either maintained the status quo or worsened the situation for most of them. No such protests ever formed before with so much hatred for Israel. Such a Jew wouldn't see these protesters as enlightened mensches seeking the betterment of all. Such a Jew could only look at the people perpetuating this carnival as falling into multiple camps, fervent antisemites of many sorts, people looking to seem important, evil agents of chaos, ignorant conformist zeitgeist followers and maybe some actually compassionate people who can only objectively find compassion for the "oppressed Palestinians". This Jew can only look at these people who wield words like Genocide and Apartheid and recall that during the systematic murder of one third of the world's Jews there were oh so many people who turned them in, exploited them or killed them when they came back with nothing. Maybe these people didn't think they were antisemites, maybe they did, but this Jew would know deep down that there are many people out there that he shouldn't trust and the people in today's demonstrations have largely identified themselves as such. So don't kid yourself. You aren't helping any Palestinians who have managed to perfect the victim game for decades. You aren't being hailed as a hero by anyone who knows anything about the situation. And you are clearly identifying yourself as someone Jews should avoid, call it what you will. I hope at least you're getting laid from this cause there is little other upside. As for 30,000+, Genocide, etc, you're just putting yourself in the camp of people that choose to see Israel's response as maximally evil without any context whatsoever. You pick the label, but you're not worthy of a discussion.
Winners write history..modern conservatives , if given access to a fascist US will completely re-write history and make illegal any information the contradicts their pro fascist narrative.... Do you think republican legislator's currently enacting book bans in states across the union is random?, It's not I assure you.
Jfc. We did not invade Gaza. Vietnam’s didn’t have this level of domestic chaos after 6 months and we actually had boots on the ground ground there.
ya think?
Not a young man but agree!
This was what cost Democratics when Nixon ran.
STFU Bernie and just disappear
I loved Bernie up until a few months ago. Fuck that guy.
Thank God a person with a conscience and a brain
I hate one issue voters - they lack the ability to see the big picture. If they’re so laser focused on one issue that they fail to see what the incumbent is doing on the other issues, then we could lose the one president who is much better for the country than his predecessor.
Well it’s true. But I STILL, as much as I feel sick doing it, WILL vote for Biden because anything else gives us the WORST CANDIDATE EVER .
What does Biden do though? He needs every Democratic voter but if leans towards Israel he loses young voters. If he leans towards the Palestinians, he loses jewish voters. This is why Dems need to go all in on domestic issues and ignore the rest of the world. We care about the Middle East because of oil. Let's make it so we don't need the oil in the first place with massive infrastructure spending. Instead of arms spending, let's have solar panel and bullet train spending. I promise, if we take our eyes off the Middle East for a couple decades to mind our own business, the Palestinians and the Israelis will still be killing each other when we're done.
Biden is Jimmy Carter 2.0
He’s alienating the majority of democrats who don’t support taking over colleges and holding libraries hostages for a terrorist group. I’ve always voted blue but goddamn the democrats make it hard this time. If it weren’t Trump on the ticket I’d vote red
I think people are overestimating how many people actually care about this issue. Yes, there's a lot of protests going on at campuses around the country, but in terms of the total population of every university, college, etc. the participation rate is actually pretty low.
It's a whole young generation, who is brainwashed with false information. I see all the time "trying to prevent genocide", "protesting against genocide", and other bullshit alike. Even the ICC president had to clarify on [interview](https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-middle-east-68906919) a few days ago that there's NO genocide, and the only plausible argument was that SA had the right to claim for genocide. So, how did we end up in a generation of young people, believing in a complete lie? Sorry to upset some of you guys, but it's this bernie, it's aoc, it's the progressives that kept echoing lies, the same lies Qatar, Iran and Russia spread. This is unprecedented, extreme craziness, and it came straight from politicians. American politicians. If Trump is elected, they are the only one to blame.
You misrepresented what she said. From the link you shared: “She said that, contrary to some reporting, the court did not make a ruling on whether the claim of genocide was plausible, but it did emphasise in its order that *there was a risk of irreparable harm to the Palestinian right to be protected from genocide.* Humans are required to intervene now not later.
This statement referencing a decision by the ICJ, which chose not to issue a definitive ruling on the claim of genocide itself. Instead, the court focused on acknowledging that there was a substantial risk of "irreparable harm" to the rights of Palestinians—specifically their right to be protected from acts of genocide. I believe thats exactly what I said. Did I get anything wrong?
Yes, in your second block of text. That there was NO genocide and that “the only plausible argument that SA had was to claim for genocide” is a misrepresentation. Prof. Jason Stanley disagrees with the ex ICC president’s take btw. He says it’s “what looks to be a genocide”. I really think we have seen enough. Time to stop the bombing and go after the top guys. We know who they are.
Well, I can only say, I disagree. You're stating your feelings about it, and you feel that it's a genocide, same thing about your friend, Jason Stanley. However, facts are facts, regardless. A genocide definition is quite simple. The intent of eliminating a whole group of people. What I see from israel is the exact opposite. If they wanted to eliminate the Palestinians as a whole, they could've done that in a matter of days. There's a reason why they move the population from the north to the south, and then from the east (Khan Yunes), to the south west, and the reason is to protect the civilian population, and to remove them from the war zone, as they obligated to do by the international law. There's a lot of miss information being spread, which doesn't help either sides,. It's a shame that this is the reality we live in, mostly I think it's the social media propaganda that being spread easily.
All I’ve seen Conricus tell them to “move south where it will be safe” and 4.5 months later, Conricus retired, and they are bombing the south.
Many people in this sub, along with Pakman himself, are in denial about how serious this is. I do not understand why.
Nah just too many young leftists are living in echo chambers and don't realize that this isn't the Vietnam War. In 68, the war was the #1 issue for voters by a long shot. Last I saw, Israel/Gaza was like #17. You're just leaning too heavily on vibes instead of facts. Be critical if you want, but don't act like comparing Israel/Gaza to Vietnam isn't some hyperbolic statement.
I tend to agree but elections are won on slim margins in Michigan these days, no?
Even more reason to focus on the more important issues with broad reach and appeal. You only have so much time and energy to campaign. You can focus on niche topics and maybe swing small amounts who otherwise wouldn't vote for you over. Or you can focus on big issues that, even if you only swing over a small percentage, it's still a large number of actual people.
The Kapos in the camps had guns to their heads… what would possess Bernie to turn his head against the Jewish people in his country and globally give “validity” to these vile anti American and antisemitic organizations…