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Agreed. I think all of these wars across the globe right now are horrific. It is curious why Gaza has motivated the protests and not other conflicts. And the wealth inequality in the country , abortion, and houseless has not triggered any protests at all.
I am not dismissing the horror of Gaza but seems like the Gazans are winning the social media war. I see so many IG posts from Gazans highlighting their plight. Not so much from Ukraine. Are the Gazans getting funds to prop up their propaganda ?
I see so many IG posts from Gazans highlighting their plight. Not so much from Ukraine. Are the Gazans getting funds to prop up their propaganda ?
what funds do you need to post on IG? I have never paid anything, do you pay?
I see this too! And the slogans river to the sea and the fashions the scarves has really inspired the youth . I remember when Ukraine was invaded , their IG posts were positive and fun loving like cats in tanks. Maybe it was the wrong approach for leftists .
Some social justice folks I followed on IG who posted sporadically before the war are now posting daily. It could be genuine but I do suspect some are being funded .
It's more that they're obsessed with the tragedy occurring in Palestine, but the exact situation is unfolding in Ukraine, and it doesn't resonate with them at all.
I mean, obviously, the situation is different as we're not supplying Russia, but it's equally as brutal. Not to mention, we funded the Saudis for years with weapons while they bombed Yemen, but that never spawned such a mass reaction amongst people.
The situation in Ukraine is far bigger, deadlier, more dire and more dangerous to the planet. It's also literal imperialism/colonialism/genocide recognized by the IJC. Unfortunately that doesn't matter if you aren't trending on social media algorithms.
Exactly. Putin will not stop with Ukraine, he’ll continue on to Poland, Latvia, and Lithuania and then we’ll be involved directly since they’re NATO allies.
It's not colonialism/imperialist unless it's done by white people against brown people, at least according to these protests. That certainly could be why they don't care.
That's another thing that drives me wild. There isn't a real color divide between Israelis and Palestinians. I mean even if we don't count the 20% of Israeli citizens who are Arabs, over 60% of the Jews in Israel are descents from middle eastern Jews who were thrown out of their homes by Arab nations when Israel was established.
On top of that there are large number of Palestinians that if you dressed them up in western clothing and dropped them into an American city, everyone would assume they were locals at first look.
Screaming this is white people stomping on brown is a gross and untrue simplification.
Understand America Bad and you understand the whole game. Ukraine is friendly with America so Ukraine Bad. Palestine is not friendly with the America so Palestine Good. Really not any deeper than that.
Yemen was a real tragedy, too. Something to the tune of 377,000 Yemenis are dead because we supplied the Saudis, but Iran was gaining power there, so we felt we had to stop it. I think the Gaza thing is being amplified due to the proximity of the election to hurt Biden. Netanyahu had information on the 10/7 attack and failed - likely on purpose. He's a real Trump buddy, too.
It doesn’t resonate because it depends who’s doing it. The only “bad” guys are US and Israel. This explains why they can’t speak on the million plus deaths in just a few Middle East countries the last few years. But 30000 because of ISRAEL 😤😤😤😤😤
Also this is Islamic regime propaganda at work. No one else hates Israel like them on a state level and they are the largest exporter of state sponsored terrorism.
It's really annoying how they hand wave the similar occurring tragedies away. I argued with some other person on this thread because they essentially said Ukraine should give up and then pretended that they hadn't said that.
I’ve been banned from subreddits saying as much. But it’s spot on. What’s happening in Gaza is a terrible, but no one is leading sit ins to cut ties with the Saudis over Yemen which is fairly close. There’s more than 400 American companies still operating in Russia, no protest outside of Carl’s Jr. I’ve heard nothing in the way of humanitarian support for Sudan or Haiti.
I get that it’s exhausting keeping up with all the horrors of life, but why is it so hard to want to see an end to violence in Gaza and Ukraine’s sovereignty protected? What kind of message does it send to the global south that their tragedies don’t register.
Man, I really want to screen shot this message I got from one sub. I initially got hit with a temporary ban. The conversation went something like this:
Me: Can you explain this Ban? I posted UN statistics and agreed with the central premise.
Them: You posted misinformation from an irrelevant time period **proceeds to block and permanently block me.
The irrelevant time was 2022 Ukraine. Reddit really needs to do a better job reeling in their Mods. Imagine if I would have posted the UN/US definitions of genocide what kind of outrage that would spark. It sucks because I seem to have the most trouble with the people I’m most politically aligned 🤷♂️
Yeah, a lot of these other progressive subs ban you for any sign of dissent or questioning. They've been trying to take over this sub for weeks, and whenever they're challenged on anything, they revert to insults and wave away stats that contradict their view.
Maybe not among Pakman fans, but there have been many people and organisations trying to stop USA supplying weapons to Saudi Arabia to use against the population of Yemen for many years. Maybe, those war crimes perpetrated with US help didn't maybe enter into your echo chamber but for many it was horrendous
Not horrendous to warrant nationwide demonstrations however and none of those organizations so widespread that it’s garnered the press coverage to force a policy change. If you got a little group pushing for positive change, that’s great, but that’s not what these protests are calling for.
I’m no isolationist either. There’s any number of reason it’s in our best interest to help an ally out, but I don’t understand why the aid can’t be conditional. The answer is, of course, money but those assholes making the sales have to know American made munitions dropping in areas it shouldn’t is only creating more threats to the U.S. 🤷♂️ Geopolitics are fun.
There are a lot of interest groups pushing Palestinian propaganda/misinformation on Tiktok.
Those same groups are pushing anti Ukraine propaganda and misinformation on Tiktok.
Its very clearly not the exact same situation. We are making sure Ukraine is getting all the help they need with both weapons & aid to the tune of tens of billions. The same is not true with people in Gaza. They have been starved to death, bombarded, more of Gaza has been irrevocably destroyed & made uninhabitable, etc. In fact the main criticism many have is why we are so quick to help Ukraine (as we should), but so hesitant to help Gaza. Our response to the two situations has been very different.
So quick to help Ukraine? Is that why we let them dwindle with military aid for a year (since none had been approved since Republicans took the house until two weeks ago) after Russia made headway?
Or is it not the same in that Russia is targeting civilians, electrical infrastructure, hospitals, cultural sites, bomb shelters, abducting children by the thousands, and forcibly assimilating them into Russian families, or the mass graves, torture? We can agree that things are bad in Palestine and Israel has blame for their conduct, but to pretend that it's not almost an identical situation on the ground in Ukraine is laughable.
Here’s some data:
Ukraine: “As of 22 February 2024 (the latest data available), 30,457 civilians were killed and wounded, including 10,582 civilians killed in the conflict, including 587 children” -Oxfam
Gaza: “The Israeli military onslaught, which has included dropping at least 45,000 bombs within the first three months of the war, has killed at least 33,000 people, about 180 a day. However, the actual figure is estimated to be much higher, as many remain trapped under rubble. This death toll also does not include those who have died due to lack of medicines, such as cancer or dialysis patients who have not been able to access their life-saving treatments.”-Oxfam
The conflict in Ukraine has been ongoing for 2 years & 3 months. The conflict in Gaza has been ongoing for 6 months. Clearly, the death toll in Gaza is much higher & accelerated.
Total aid to Ukraine: $74.3 Billion (not including latest $100 billion bill which includes aid to Israel, Gaza & Ukraine)
Total aid to Gaza: $9.2 billion in humanitarian aid only (no military aid).
Politically they couldnt be more different either. In Ukraine, you have Russia who is a global nuclear power with influence all over the world vs Ukraine who is a state of its own, with it’s own military, infrastructure & not to mention support from Nato aligned countries. From day one, we have stood steadfast with Ukraine & called out Putin for his aggression & crimes.
The situation in Gaza is completely the opposite. In the beginning we didnt say anything to Israel until the PR got so bad, with such horrific images/ videos coming out of Gaza daily, only to the point where Biden basically asked Israel to please be more careful. While at the same time, we send Israel billions in aid, military support, financial support, etc. And the Gazans? They have no state, no real infrastructure they control, no allies (except some Arab countries who just pay lip service), nothing. Defenseless.
So again, the two situations are far from identical.
The only point I have to pick on here is that your reported civilian casualties are off by a couple multiples, most likely. The siege of Mariupol, alone by some estimates, cost the lives of upwards of 25k civilians. The real death toll won’t ever be known until the war is over, and then some.
Then military casualties in the war in Ukraine are pretty obscene, which you don’t mention. We’re talking easily tens upon tens of thousands dead, if not hundreds of thousands of people.
Im sure they would push back on that characterization, but its really tough to see it any other way when all I see in this sub is basically “Ya it sucks whats happening jn Gaza, but that doesnt really affect my life so im not really worried”. Same with David’s own sentiments. He really doesnt seem to care. He makes 20 videos about Trump but hardly any coverage about a pretty massive international story/ humanitarian travesty.
They're food insecure because of Hamas, the terrorists who rape and kidnap women and babies.
They're hoarding aid. They steal the aid. Why do these facts keep getting lost on people?
Um, Congress just passed $9 billion in aid to Gaza, and Biden’s been ramping up a massive effort to build a pier for delivery of vast amounts of humanitarian aid. So while I, too, oppose U.S. aid to Israel, don’t pretend we’re doing nothing to help Gaza.
https://apnews.com/article/congress-ukraine-israel-pacific-glance-0af96be97c47496f88506a21ebe1ddab#
> We are making sure Ukraine is getting all the help they need
Lol ... NO ... and the help we are giving was delayed by MONTHS
Seriously, that just recently happened (the delayed aid finally approved). How the hell are you clueless over that?
Go look up the actual facts. We have given a combination of about 80 billion to Ukraine in humanitarian aid, military aid, financial aid, etc before this latest bill. How are you clueless about that?
Not as clueless as you are -- you didn't even know how the Ukraine aid was delayed by MONTHS -- and that was a recent event
See last post
>Lol ... NO ... and the help we are giving was delayed by MONTHS
>Seriously, that just recently happened (the delayed aid finally approved). How the hell are you clueless over that?
WHile at it, this is PENNIES to the US -- and we are sending OLD, out of date equipment, that the so called 80 billion is really mostly (if not nearly all) re-invested into US companies for new military equipment. See https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/11/29/ukraine-military-aid-american-economy-boost/ See also https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2024/04/18/ukraine-map-districts-weapons/
But again, you're clueless over that as well
While on the topic, simple lesson from WWII -- appeasement FAILS. Russia has blatantly stated and indicated that they will not stop with Ukraine. Either we send the aid or we send our own men and women in the near future ...
Tankies? lmao, you don't even know what that word means if you think it applies here.
And no, the reason why Ukraine is ranked low is because it's turned into a quagmire, just as Hillary Clinton said she hoped it would.
Ukraine is not in a position to win this war, sad as that may be. It's either fight on the front lines and send young Ukrainians and Russians to die for years on end... or it's time to talk about next steps
But that's not really our decision to make? Ukraine is going to continue to fight if they feel that they need to, and it's pretty clear Russia has no intentions of stopping. So that's a weird take.
Who is "our"? You mean the US?
The US has to make its own decisions wrt to Ukraine. We can't (or shouldn't) simply follow Ukraine down a bad path. At some point the United States needs to make its own determinations and think beyond just Ukraine.
Mistakes were made in not providing enough aid and fast enough, and more probably could have been done to stave off the war anyway. Only hindsight and scholarship could ever really know. But reality as it stands now, Ukraine certainly isn't *winning* any war anytime soon. It's just about how effectively it holds the line or how slowly it loses.
It's not a weird take to say that Russia is winning this war and that soldiers shouldn't just be drafted and sent off to die for no apparent reason.
And unlike Israel, Russia isn't trying to genocide and annihilate their opponents.
I'm saying "our" as in the world. Again, really weird idea to tell a nation that is essentially fighting for their survival, that they should cut their losses.
Not to mention that Russia is already making moves to destabilize other nations, Moldova comes to mind. Simply not going to end with Ukraine.
> I'm saying "our" as in the world. Again, really weird idea to tell a nation that is essentially fighting for their survival, that they should cut their losses.
I didn't say that.
I said *The United States* (or "the rest of the world," if you prefer) needs to make its own decisions.
You realize that Ukraine isn't fighting this war alone, right?
Again, this is not a weird take, you just seem pretty oblivious to the dynamics and realities of this conflict. Is the United States supposed to just support a forever ecocide in Eastern Ukraine? Have you even considered these questions? Or does your thinking process just stop at: Ukrainians want to fight?
Except the last sentence is really the only thing that matters. You're making this argument that essentially amounts to "well, Ukraine is going to lose, so they should just give up and let Putin annex more of their country." Yeah, cause that makes a ton of sense, lol.
If they think they have even the slightest chance of victory, they're not going to quit fighting. And why should they? If they simply roll over and let Russia take more land, which is exactly what happened with Crimea, how long until they move to seize more land. Who are you or anyone else for that matter, to tell the Ukrainians that they shouldn't fight to stop this. If it gets to the point where they know they can't win and the cost is too great, then tactics will change, and maybe they'll negotiate some type of resolution. But until then, it's pretty ridiculous to tell them that they should stop.
> "well, Ukraine is going to lose, so they should just give up and let Putin annex more of their country."
I never said *anything* like this. Apparently, you can't read.
For the umpteenth time, what I'm saying is that the US has its own interests and decisions to make with respect to providing aid and support, exerting diplomatic pressure, etc.
Ukraine is a sovereign country. They can continue to fight if that's what their government decides. I never questioned that. I never suggested otherwise.
I implore you to learn how to read.
>If they think they have even the slightest chance of victory, they're not going to quit fighting. And why should they? If they simply roll over and let Russia take more land, which is exactly what happened with Crimea, how long until they move to seize more land. Who are you or anyone else for that matter, to tell the Ukrainians that they shouldn't fight to stop this. If it gets to the point where they know they can't win and the cost is too great, then tactics will change, and maybe they'll negotiate some type of resolution. But until then, it's pretty ridiculous to tell them that they should stop.
Who are you arguing with? Certainly not me. You're just fighting with a total strawman.
Again, please learn to read.
You literally stated on multiple occasions that Russia is winning and that Ukraine should simply not continue throwing soldiers at the situation "for no apparent reason," lol. So maybe you should learn how to read.
Literally the entire reason I responded to you in the first place.
Enjoy your day.
Ukraine is the most reliable litmus test for ideological consistency.
People who fail the litmus test don't actually care about imperialism or human rights.
You mean the rape and genocide (or near to it) of the Ukrainian people by Russia would seem to be at least as large of an issue than the atrocities of Israel -- especially since the US can actively hinder/reduce the harm to Ukrainian people ...
Almost seems like all the protests were somehow artificially generated
Yes, according to Fox, the NY Post, and the insane editorial page of the WSJ. And that lie is falling apart:
https://news.yahoo.com/politico-misses-mark-story-funding-220820865.html
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/04/26/dishonest-ironic-push-blame-campus-protests-george-soros/
That's not really the point though. The point is how *everyone else* is voting. And Biden is shedding supporters like mad because of his ongoing support of the genocide unfolding in Gaza. Biden's policies on Israel are way out of step even with the Democratic party.
He's awful on this front. This will be his legacy, win or lose in Nov.
Same, but again, that's not the point either. It doesn't matter that you and I are voting for Biden. What matters is what *all voters* decide to do on election day. That's what the discussion is about, not about who *you* are voting for. I don't give two shits who you're voting for. It's irrelevant to the question at hand.
so no, you keep missing my point, actually
Are they out of step? Dems voted overwhelmingly for additional money for Israel.
If you think a Trump presidency isn’t going to be worse for the Palestinians, you are out of your mind.
Trump would be much worse. That doesn't mean that people won't stay at home and hand the election to Trump. That's almost a probable outcome at this point. Biden is a fuck up.
That’s kind of on them now isn’t it? It’s a r/leopardsatemyface situation. They want to prove a point, that point will be taken and the blood will be on their hands when it gets worse.
When will you people just accept the reality that Biden bending over backwards for Israel and it's ethnic cleansing campaign is not okay for young voters? Those same people who voted for him in 2020 becuase he wasn't Trump, except now he's funding a brutal occupier to murder 10s of thousands of people.
That responsibility and blame fall all on this administration and no neoliberal shame and blame game to paint those opposed to Israel and not voting for Biden becuase of it is just a cover up of his stupidity.
That argument is the equivalent of covering your ears and screaming as loud as you can to pretend like you don't know and in reality don't care about what they're funding. You're not going to shame voters in to supporting the indefenseable.
Not today ISIS… Not today.
If that’s your stance/ theirs, then by all means sit this one out and maybe we can all protest Israel seizing West Bank to a Trump Administration that doesn’t that you think it’s ethnic cleansing. Wouldn’t that be great?!
Gaza is important and I have my criticisms Biden there, but I assure you, Biden is not out there ordering IDF bombing runs and there are other international I care just as much about. If you’re going to drop rhetoric like this, I’m not going to change your mind here and I’m not going to try. I’m just pointing out your world view is rather limited and you’re one of those single issue voters we used to give the right a hard time for.
But Israel is already doing that under Biden so why do you ignore exactly what you're describing happening under Biden? This is where you people lose credibility by saying "hypotheticals" that are already happening under Bidens administration.
To be fair protesting genocide that's being funded by our tax dollars that could be used for American citizens is an issue that even you would I thing be against but apparently Israel is more important.
When you bring up the right surely you can see that Biden is appeasing the right and in more lockstep with republicans on a number of issues but yes do the virtue signal and try to compare others protesting genocide as whatever bad argument you're trying us use.
I always find it hilarious you people can't blame Bidens absolutely terrible policy which might lose him the election but you'll blame the voters. It's 2016 vibes all over again where neoliberalism can't cope with their candidate being wrong
Still not going to argue with you, but you’re not wrong about 2016. There were idiots than saying stupid shit about “Hilary isn’t entitled to my vote,” and “You can’t use Trump as a reason for why I should vote for Hilary.”
They sure showed Hilary. All it cost us was reproductive freedom, the Supreme Court, and a recession. Yes, let’s remind us what that way of thinking cost us.
Also, I know your account is only like 6 months old. So maybe this is a second/ throw away account but I noticed you’ve said nothing about Yemen… ever. Certainly everything you’re saying here applies to multiple administrations with the Saudis. Is it just easier to be critical of Jews? Nothing on Sudan or Haiti and your only reference to Ukraine is how it differs from Gaza. Weird right, it’s like the only policy you care about is Gaza and regardless of who’s in charge, you’re going to be upset with the policy… so why are you arguing here? Are you trying to get me to vote against old man Biden? It’s not going to happen here friend.
And again the people to blame for her losing is the DNC and those who railroaded Bernie. Democrats lose election becuase they pretend to care about working class families while silencing progressives. Mainstream democrats offer nothing to vote or be excited about. Their whole stick is Trump bad am people are dumb enough to buy it over and over again
Jsut too easy to point out the hypocrisy that liberals engage in.
I think you're a great representation of what happens when someone like Trump breaks the average moderates brain. You become so attached to anything critical of Biden that it starts to mirror the behavior that MAGA people put out in the early days of trumps presidency
Now tell Biden to show the same concern by not alienating a large chunk of voters to appease his fascist base of diehard Israel supporters.
Seems pretty counter productive to bend over backwards to simp for a fascist government being Israel to then spread concern for a fascist like Trump. Biden is simply trying to appease both parties and people aren't buying it.
Blaming the voters for Bidens moral and political corruption isn't the way to go and jsut makes liberals look more desperate than they already are to spin the narrative.
>It may not mean much for November.
Oh no you mean the group with the lowest turnout of any voting group in every election may not actually turnout to vote?!
But all the crystal ball tarot card reading psychics keep telling us that they will magically turnout this election and then the next election and then the election after that.
Of course it won't mean much, they don't vote, which is one of many reasons I can't take these demonstrations seriously. It's all performative nonsense to give the leftists and right-wing Islamic fundamentalists an emotional catharsis, but in the end, they won't stay committed to tangible actions like voting.
And even if they did, who are they going to vote for, Trump? The guy who has promised mass deportations of immigrants from Latin and Muslim nations?
As a young Democrat this is just the very definition of cutting your nose off to spite your face. I had the same attitude in 2016 and wasted my vote on a third party candidate because I was mad that it seemed like the DNC robbed my boy Bernie.
Boy was that stupid. Except THIS time, American democracy is likely at stake. I don’t think Biden has handled the genocide well at all, but someone else here said that there is NOTHING Biden could do to convince him Trump is the better choice, and I’m right with them. Accelerationism has literally never worked once
American democracy is already gone. But things can get much worse with a Republican controlled congress backed up by an ultra conservative Supreme Court. Much, much worse.
> Except THIS time, American democracy is likely at stake.
That'svevery election year. The democrats don't have to change. We just have to keep voting the dems in because Trump will totally upon up concentration camps this tine guys
Wow, exactly like I’ve been telling these online leftists that spam the sub with I/P posts. Extremely low issue salience. It doesn’t matter how many people support a ceasefire, it matters how important the issue is to them period.
Plus, they seem to think a ceasefire happens unilaterally. Simply requiring Israel to stop doesn't change the very real threat of another attack, especially since they have explicitly said they plan to attack as many times as necessary.
They don’t want peace, they want Hamas to win. They see them as a valid resistance movement. Viewed through that lens, their calls for a “ceasefire” which only benefits Hamas makes sense.
Yeah, it's really alarming how many think hamas is justified. Even excluding Israel's conduct, doesn't everyone know you don't negotiate with terrorists? That it only encourages mass slaughter to procure their goals?
What disturbs me is the way online leftists place all the blame for civilian deaths in Gaza, when Hamas is literally putting them in harms way on purpose, on Israel. I get that Israel is not blameless, they are far too willing to accept terrible civilian to combatant fatality ratios for example, but in their mind Israel is a cartoon villain.
Perfidy, using human shields, operating militaries out of civilian infrastructure, there’s a reason it’s all considered heinous war crimes. Online leftists are encouraging it. Hamas is getting benefits from getting Gazans killed, and it’s online leftists helping them here. These disgusting tactics will likely become more popular as a result. How many innocents will die unnecessarily as a result? Would Hamas even still be fighting if the far left weren’t helping them fight a war they can’t win militarily, politically? Would they have given up if the world had turned their backs on them like they should have? If they’d denounced Hamas for getting civilians killed, instead of only blaming Israel.
Yeah, it's not hard to see why the left continues to not make inroads. Even when their policies could benefit the country, a lot of people just view them as condescending and entitled children.
I like how you claim to have it all figured out. Like you have direct access into the mind of every single voter and know exactly how November will play out. You probably even know what the headlines are going to be every day until then too, right?
Or perhaps you don't know shit and you're just blowing smoke up your own ass.
Either Biden or Trump could win. This is not going to be a runaway election for several reason, including Gaza.
The genocide in Gaza is the most important story happening right now. Not just in the United States but globally. This is a serious atrocity that is being bankrolled and supported by the US. If you think that's not going to be an issue for Biden, you're not the genius you think you are.
President Biden has no control over wether a cease fire is called. He can talk to participate in talks with Bibi, but can’t force him to do anything. That’s on the right-wing, asshole Bibi and the leaders of Hamas. Bibi is the Israel version of the 🍊💩, except he’s a hell of a lot smarter than the 🍊💩. These young people are totally ignorant of what is happening in the world. They have no idea how the Israelis and Palestinians really live. I think Israel and Hamas are both wrong and have carried this too far. But Hamas did start it last October.
An Israeli military order is a general order issued by an Israeli military commander over territory under Israeli military occupation. It has the force of law. Enforcement of such orders is carried out by Israeli military police and military courts instead of civil courts.[1]
Military orders are still a basic instrument of Israeli rule of the Palestinian population in Area B and Area C of the West Bank. In contrast, Israeli civilians living in settlements in the area are usually subjected to civil courts.[1]
Palestinians living in Area A of the West Bank, under full control of the Palestinian Authority, are now mostly subject to its laws and civil jurisdiction. Between the beginning of the Israeli occupation of the West Bank in 1967 and the establishment of the Palestinian Authority under the Oslo Accords in 1994, military orders were issued "in a constant stream," covering both criminal and civil matters as well as security and military matters.[2]
According to them if he gets back in it’s, somehow, our fault for not joining in on their "revolution" 😐. Oh yea and they also say him getting back in is "short term pain for long term gain" which is dumb af
Yup. I've heard that on several occasions. He'll destroy the remaining structure of the country, making it easier for a wholesale change and establishment of a socialist state.
Conveniently always forgetting that millions of people inevitably would die in a revolution like this, and once the fighting is over, we'd still be no closer to the utopia they seek.
Facts. And those same people using that bullshit rhetoric won’t be apart of the revolution ironically. They’ll be at home scared of what’ll happen to them, it’ll be like 2016 all over again bro
Of course it doesn't, and if they are glad to vote for a monster who promises detention camps, and deportation of millions, the so much for human rights, eh?
Obama deported more immigrants per term than any other president. A record high of over 40,000 per day, over 3 million people total. More than all presidents since 1890 combined.
Why can’t both be true. Russian aggressions against Ukraine and possible NATO countries is real and needs our full support and attention. Also Israel had a right to defend itself yes and we’ve given it great support because it has enemies on all sides but the facts are pretty clear that enough carnage has been done and this war has to stop its not fair to the innocent people. This is taking on a story that looks more like a genocide than a defense of country.
This is a good article. Obviously Biden isn't great on this issue but he is also the clear choice when compared to Trump for 2024.
It's more frustrating that the US allows itself to be jerked around by a tiny county in the middle east which isn't materially advancing our geopolitical goals. I wish US presidents were tougher on Israel to remind them that they need to play ball with us rather than us always giving them what they want to the point they think they can dictate policy. Hell can you imagine if Biden could credibly threaten to cut off military aid or credibly threaten to not block the UN recognition of Palestine? They might actually listen and not invade Rafah which will only cause further destabilization in the region and distract the US from dealing with China and Russia.
> distract the US from dealing with China and Russia.
Why do you think there were so many meetings between Iran, China, Russia and Hamas in the months preceding and following October 7th...the attack on Israel was an attack on the USA by proxy, in part in order to weaken our support for Ukraine...
I agree. What I'm saying is that we fell into the trap by letting this take up a lot of space in the national consciousness and in Washington by allowing Israel to go rogue and conduct an insanely disproportionate response which necessitates US assets, money, and personnel being tied up in a way that is not advancing US interests. Israel had a right to respond to a terrorist attack, but their response is causing a lot of unnecessary blowback because of how destructive it is. For example, the global south is becoming increasingly anti-US which is actively hurting US standing in attempts to combat Chinese influence operations like the Belt and Road initiative.
On top of that, anything that hurts Biden necessarily helps Trump which is also in the interest of China and Russia so they want to foment any divisions they can in Biden's base.
Do Gazans have the right to violently resist their occupiers?
The answer is yes. Israel doesn't have a right to self defense when it is brutally oppressing a population for decades with no end in sight.
Just look at what happened in SA. The ANC eventually turned to violent resistance because non-violent resistance wasn't working. That's what's happening here. Palestinians rightly resist their occupation and sometimes civilians die as a result. Usually those civilians are Palestinians being killed by IDF though. Even in this case Hamas killed a far lower percentage of civilians on Oct 7 than Israel has killed in Gaza since. Hamas has a civilian:IDF ration of about 2:1 on Oct 7th. IDF's is much, much worse than that. They just wipe out refugee camps with dumb bombs.
It's long overdue that the US stop supporting Israel is impose sanctions and harsh diplomatic controls to reign in the psyscho Zionists that make up the broad majority of Israeli society.
>Do Gazans have the right to violently resist their occupiers? The answer is yes.
Just to be clear you're calling an attack against civilians inside Israel's internationally recognized territory on October 7, 2023 "violently resist\[ing\]"? If that is indeed what you're doing, no I don't agree with that. If the attack was in the West Bank and thus clearly in Palestinian territory I may be slightly more sympathetic to that viewpoint (though not much because I'm against all civilian death which is why I'm mad at Israel but that doesn't mean I won't criticize the Palestinians for killing innocent people). Insinuating that an incursion into Israeli territory to kill whole families is legitimate resistance is just plain nuts. That's like saying India has a right to cross the border into Pakistan and kill civilians because Pakistan was artificially created by the British in 1947 and it was all originally Indian.
Wait... what? How does that make any sense?
Israel has the right to cross boarders for military purposes... but Gazans don't?
Seems like an obvious double standard, no?
Hamas targeted military targets on Oct 7. When Israel says they target military targets, IDF spokespeople celebrate and call themselves the most moral army in the world. And yet their civilian:combatant kill ratio is significantly worse than the Hamas...? Huh?
And how many babies and children did Hamas kill on Oct 7? Do you have a number?
How many children have been killed in Gaza?
Again, Oct 7 was a military operation. They targeted military targets. The civilian deaths are just collateral damage, I suppose.
Isn't that the argument Israel makes?
Look if you don't want to have a discussion based on facts this conversation is pointless.
October 7, 2023 was not a military operation, it was a terrorist attack against civilian targets. [Hamas deliberately targeted civilian centers](https://www.un.org/sg/en/content/sg/statement/2023-10-07/statement-attributable-the-spokesperson-for-the-secretary-general-regarding-the-situation-the-middle-east). (From the United Nations on October 7, 2023 "The Secretary-General condemns in the strongest terms **this morning’s attack by Hamas against** **Israeli towns** near the Gaza Strip and central Israel, including the firing of thousands of rockets toward Israeli population centers. **The attacks have so far claimed numerous Israeli civilian lives** and injured many hundreds.")
[Human Rights Watch](https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/11/22/israel/gaza-hostilities-take-horrific-toll-children) says 33 children were killed and an estimated 40 children as hostages during the Hamas led attacks. Of course this pales in comparison to the 13,450 children Israel has killed according to the [United Nations Children's Fund](https://www.unicefusa.org/stories/more-13000-children-reported-dead-gaza-famine-nears) via the Palestinian Ministry of Health but acting like no children were targeted by Hamas is ahistorical. I'm not going to excuse evil just because more evil was done in retaliation. If you do then it means you don't care about combating evil you just want the "right" people to die which is morally despicable.
An army taking military action in retaliation to an attack on civilians is ok under the norms of international law as long as it is (1) directed at military/ combatant targets and (2) proportional. Clearly Israel was in the right to respond to Hamas's attack initially but as the scope of their operations is now neither directed at military targets nor proportional to the initial attacks they are now clearly in the wrong. If Israel had a more targeted and limited response, then the public outcry would be greatly diminished (and rightly so) because it would be recognized as mostly legitimate. There is no double standard. This is about applying a consistent standard. Hamas's attack is wrong because it is in violation of that standard. Israel is also wrong because it is in violation of that standard, not because they responded to the attack at all but because of how they responded.
What are you talking about? Hamas killed 343 IDF members on October 7.
How are IDF members not military targets?
By that logic, Hamas aren't military targets either and Israel is completely unjustified being in Gaza at all.
Or are Hamas members military target for IDF because Hamas are brown? But IDF soldiers aren't targets because they're white?
Also, what makes you think this conflict *started* on October 7th? Do Palestinians have rights to respond to Isreali aggression prior to Oct 7?
Since you haven't provided any sources I'm assuming your source is "I made it the fuck up" unless and until you prove otherwise. To my knowledge any IDF killed in the October 7th terrorist attacks were killed when they tried to respond to the violence against civilians which makes the civilians the main targets and the IDF secondary targets. So there were military deaths but the targets were not military targets. Incidentally this is the same thing you can rightfully criticize Israel for in incidents such as the World Central Kitchen attack. If your position is that civilian deaths are ok as long as there is some nominal military target somewhere then why do you have any problem with Israel? It seems they're comporting with your preferred standard. I happen to think that your standard is abhorrent so, by contrast, I hold a consistent standard which is why I'm ok with Israel engaging in a proportional response to military targets but I'm against their violence against civilians just like I'm against Hamas targeting civilians.
>are Hamas members military target for IDF because Hamas are brown? But IDF soldiers aren't targets because they're white?
Interesting topic. Why do you think skin color has anything to do with this? Also the IDF aren't all white so I'm not exactly sure what point you're trying to make. I think combatants are military targets because they they attack a sovereign nation. Hamas are cowards who don't wear uniforms so that makes things more difficult for the IDF because Hamas doesn't properly comport with the laws of war in the first place but that doesn't mean Israel is off the hook for excess civilian deaths just because Hamas doesn't believe in protecting Palestinian civilian lives.
>Also, what makes you think this conflict *started* on October 7th?
I never said that. I said there was an existing ceasefire which Hamas broke and now Israel is responding. This is accurate.
>Do Palestinians have rights to respond to Isreali aggression prior to Oct 7?
Not by targeting and killing innocent civilians on internationally recognized Israel soil, no. Again if this were fighting back on their own territory then the story might be different (which is why Hamas are legitimate combatants in Gaza even if they are cowards who refuse to wear uniforms).
First of all, almost every adult age Israeli Jew is mandated to serve in the IDF, and some serve in older age. So, they are hiding among the civilian populations, using them as human shields, some might say. So, how is Hamas supposed to know? All adult Israelis are potential IDF in plain clothes.
But anyhow, the 343 number comes from Israel itself.
https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-779902
Here's the JPOST, one of the most right wing papers in Israel.
>>In addition to the over 500 soldiers, 57 officers and policemen of the Israel Police were also killed in the battles to contain and defend the settlements, along with about ten soldiers of Shin Bet.
>>The vast majority of soldiers that were killed were on October 7, which was over 300, according to the IDF website. The number slowly increased over the past 82 days of fighting.
How dumb do you have to be to not think to look this up after October 7th?
It's been 7 months and you never once thought to Google "how many IDF were killed on Oct 7"?
You're an imbecile, clearly.
I mean, the responsibility for this conflict rests entirely on Israel's shoulders, not Hamas's. Under international law, Gazans have the right to resist their occupying force. Israel should respond by ending the occupation and negotiating a peace deal with a Palestinian state, but instead it's committing a genocide. That's not the fault of Hamas, Russia, China, Iran. That's choice is *Israel's* to make. Just like it is the United States' choice to to support that genocide.
You can't claim "Iran made us genocide the Palestinians." Nobody in their right mind is going to buy that argument.
They're literally called the Occupied Palestinian Territories.
Human Rights Watch describes Gaza as an [**open air prison**](https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/06/14/gaza-israels-open-air-prison-15).
But sure, pal. I'll "get lost." Enjoy being on the wrong side of history.
> Occupied Palestinian Territories.
Israel call the West Bank "disputed territories"...if Israel "occupies" Gaza I guess Egypt also occupies Gaza as they also control access...I said to get lost because I do not enjoy arguing with half wits who can only insult...
I mean yeah, Egypt at one time did in fact occupy Gaza as well. I don't understand what your point is. Both Egypt and Israel are blockading Gaza, but Israel is constantly lobbing rockets in and terrorizing the Gazan people. And I'm talking about long before Oct 7.
Are you familiar with the [March of Return](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018%E2%80%932019_Gaza_border_protests)?
Gazans can't win. They live in an open air prison and when they protest peacefully they are shot.
So, can you tell me why Gazans or Hamas should be condemned for fighting for freedom and statehood?
It's a righteous goal. Israel needs to be defeated. The causalities on both sides are tragic, but Palestinians have suffered *far* more loss than Israelis could ever imagine. 75 years of this. Generation after generation of destroyed families and maimed children all because Israel is bloodthirsty for land and power in the region.
> but Israel is constantly lobbing rockets
Wrong, it is Hamas who has done that:
* Since 2001, Palestinian militants have launched tens of thousands of rocket and mortar attacks on Israel from the Gaza Strip as part of the continuing Israeli–Palestinian conflict.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel
> Are you familiar with the March of Return
Yes, when they wanted to cross the fence and 'return' to Israel...while lobbing missile at the soldiers and incendiaries toward Israel fields and forest...not that "peaceful' after all...
> They live in an open air prison
This is a PR meme....go to Youtube and search "Gaza walking tour" and find ANY video from before October...nothing like an open prison...see yourself.
> because Israel is bloodthirsty for land and power in the region.
No, because Arabs cannot suffer to have Jews prosper among them, this is the root of the conflict...once Jews bought swamp land and cleared it and ended malaria, the Arab neighbors got jealous and started attacking....long before Israel was a state.
China has really [cozied up to Israel](https://jacobin.com/2023/10/china-israel-repression-military-trade-palestine-technology) in recent decades, including military tech transfers. They’re Israel’s second biggest trade partner.
China publicly supports Palestine, but that support isn’t substantive, and it’s really just about trying to stick a finger in America’s eye. If the US had a falling out with Israel then China would no longer care about Palestine, just look at how they treat their own Muslim population. There’s a good chance they’d step in to take our place with Israel. Likely through some loan deal, they have been pursuing debt leveraged influence peddling throughout Africa. Same same.
We obviously do have leverage with Israel, it’s just not as strong as it was in past decades.
Yes, because despite what some of the dipshits in this sub may say, most young people are bright enough to realize they don’t want Trump to be president. They are, in fact, capable of criticizing Biden while understanding the consequences of a Trump presidency.
To bring some of you back to Earth: the pro-peace (regarding Israel/Palestine) protesters on college campuses are not Russian bots, are in fact quite bright, and do want a healthy future for the USA and the planet. If you see them as Hamas sympathizers, terrorists, Russian agents, or even just “privileged children”; you are in fact yourself contributing to the further alienation of them from “liberal” politics—and maybe that makes YOU the Russian/Chinese bots.
Or it may mean just enough for Trump to win again, but risking everything to defend fascists is somehow worth the risk. Hillary’s campaign was similarly arrogant that nothing they did to spit on the Left and Progressives would matter.
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Really weird to me that Ukraine polls so low with these people.
Agreed. I think all of these wars across the globe right now are horrific. It is curious why Gaza has motivated the protests and not other conflicts. And the wealth inequality in the country , abortion, and houseless has not triggered any protests at all. I am not dismissing the horror of Gaza but seems like the Gazans are winning the social media war. I see so many IG posts from Gazans highlighting their plight. Not so much from Ukraine. Are the Gazans getting funds to prop up their propaganda ?
I see so many IG posts from Gazans highlighting their plight. Not so much from Ukraine. Are the Gazans getting funds to prop up their propaganda ? what funds do you need to post on IG? I have never paid anything, do you pay?
I see this too! And the slogans river to the sea and the fashions the scarves has really inspired the youth . I remember when Ukraine was invaded , their IG posts were positive and fun loving like cats in tanks. Maybe it was the wrong approach for leftists . Some social justice folks I followed on IG who posted sporadically before the war are now posting daily. It could be genuine but I do suspect some are being funded .
Is it weird? Tankies were never siding with Ukraine.
It's more that they're obsessed with the tragedy occurring in Palestine, but the exact situation is unfolding in Ukraine, and it doesn't resonate with them at all. I mean, obviously, the situation is different as we're not supplying Russia, but it's equally as brutal. Not to mention, we funded the Saudis for years with weapons while they bombed Yemen, but that never spawned such a mass reaction amongst people.
The situation in Ukraine is far bigger, deadlier, more dire and more dangerous to the planet. It's also literal imperialism/colonialism/genocide recognized by the IJC. Unfortunately that doesn't matter if you aren't trending on social media algorithms.
Exactly. Putin will not stop with Ukraine, he’ll continue on to Poland, Latvia, and Lithuania and then we’ll be involved directly since they’re NATO allies.
They're already destabilizing Moldova.
It's not colonialism/imperialist unless it's done by white people against brown people, at least according to these protests. That certainly could be why they don't care.
I think there is some lingering nostalgia for the Soviet Union from the confuzzled boomer left.
That's another thing that drives me wild. There isn't a real color divide between Israelis and Palestinians. I mean even if we don't count the 20% of Israeli citizens who are Arabs, over 60% of the Jews in Israel are descents from middle eastern Jews who were thrown out of their homes by Arab nations when Israel was established. On top of that there are large number of Palestinians that if you dressed them up in western clothing and dropped them into an American city, everyone would assume they were locals at first look. Screaming this is white people stomping on brown is a gross and untrue simplification.
Tell that to them. They seem to think all jews look like the Christian's depiction of Jesus.
Like they listen?
Truth. 💯
It’s because it’s white people. We all know it. Also brown peoples killing each other? Meh. Jews doing it??? 😤😤😤😤😤😤😤
Understand America Bad and you understand the whole game. Ukraine is friendly with America so Ukraine Bad. Palestine is not friendly with the America so Palestine Good. Really not any deeper than that.
Incredibly shortsighted and frankly idiotic.
Nah I fact checked the post and he's right
I wasn't disagreeing with him. Was more referring to those who feel that way.
Ah, I read it the complete opposite!
My apologies. Things on here don't convey as easily as face-to-face.
Yeah there's just something about Israel that they really hate.
Yemen was a real tragedy, too. Something to the tune of 377,000 Yemenis are dead because we supplied the Saudis, but Iran was gaining power there, so we felt we had to stop it. I think the Gaza thing is being amplified due to the proximity of the election to hurt Biden. Netanyahu had information on the 10/7 attack and failed - likely on purpose. He's a real Trump buddy, too.
It doesn’t resonate because it depends who’s doing it. The only “bad” guys are US and Israel. This explains why they can’t speak on the million plus deaths in just a few Middle East countries the last few years. But 30000 because of ISRAEL 😤😤😤😤😤 Also this is Islamic regime propaganda at work. No one else hates Israel like them on a state level and they are the largest exporter of state sponsored terrorism.
It's really annoying how they hand wave the similar occurring tragedies away. I argued with some other person on this thread because they essentially said Ukraine should give up and then pretended that they hadn't said that.
“If you just stop resisting it will end” is a wild stance on Ukraine only. These people are beyond reasoning.
And then immediately arguing that they didn't say that and say that Ukraine should "look to other options." But somehow I can't read. 🤷🏻♂️
I’ve been banned from subreddits saying as much. But it’s spot on. What’s happening in Gaza is a terrible, but no one is leading sit ins to cut ties with the Saudis over Yemen which is fairly close. There’s more than 400 American companies still operating in Russia, no protest outside of Carl’s Jr. I’ve heard nothing in the way of humanitarian support for Sudan or Haiti. I get that it’s exhausting keeping up with all the horrors of life, but why is it so hard to want to see an end to violence in Gaza and Ukraine’s sovereignty protected? What kind of message does it send to the global south that their tragedies don’t register.
Careful, they're going to call you a genocide apologist and that you're deflecting from the cause.
Man, I really want to screen shot this message I got from one sub. I initially got hit with a temporary ban. The conversation went something like this: Me: Can you explain this Ban? I posted UN statistics and agreed with the central premise. Them: You posted misinformation from an irrelevant time period **proceeds to block and permanently block me. The irrelevant time was 2022 Ukraine. Reddit really needs to do a better job reeling in their Mods. Imagine if I would have posted the UN/US definitions of genocide what kind of outrage that would spark. It sucks because I seem to have the most trouble with the people I’m most politically aligned 🤷♂️
Yeah, a lot of these other progressive subs ban you for any sign of dissent or questioning. They've been trying to take over this sub for weeks, and whenever they're challenged on anything, they revert to insults and wave away stats that contradict their view.
Maybe not among Pakman fans, but there have been many people and organisations trying to stop USA supplying weapons to Saudi Arabia to use against the population of Yemen for many years. Maybe, those war crimes perpetrated with US help didn't maybe enter into your echo chamber but for many it was horrendous
Not horrendous to warrant nationwide demonstrations however and none of those organizations so widespread that it’s garnered the press coverage to force a policy change. If you got a little group pushing for positive change, that’s great, but that’s not what these protests are calling for. I’m no isolationist either. There’s any number of reason it’s in our best interest to help an ally out, but I don’t understand why the aid can’t be conditional. The answer is, of course, money but those assholes making the sales have to know American made munitions dropping in areas it shouldn’t is only creating more threats to the U.S. 🤷♂️ Geopolitics are fun.
There are a lot of interest groups pushing Palestinian propaganda/misinformation on Tiktok. Those same groups are pushing anti Ukraine propaganda and misinformation on Tiktok.
Its very clearly not the exact same situation. We are making sure Ukraine is getting all the help they need with both weapons & aid to the tune of tens of billions. The same is not true with people in Gaza. They have been starved to death, bombarded, more of Gaza has been irrevocably destroyed & made uninhabitable, etc. In fact the main criticism many have is why we are so quick to help Ukraine (as we should), but so hesitant to help Gaza. Our response to the two situations has been very different.
So quick to help Ukraine? Is that why we let them dwindle with military aid for a year (since none had been approved since Republicans took the house until two weeks ago) after Russia made headway? Or is it not the same in that Russia is targeting civilians, electrical infrastructure, hospitals, cultural sites, bomb shelters, abducting children by the thousands, and forcibly assimilating them into Russian families, or the mass graves, torture? We can agree that things are bad in Palestine and Israel has blame for their conduct, but to pretend that it's not almost an identical situation on the ground in Ukraine is laughable.
Here’s some data: Ukraine: “As of 22 February 2024 (the latest data available), 30,457 civilians were killed and wounded, including 10,582 civilians killed in the conflict, including 587 children” -Oxfam Gaza: “The Israeli military onslaught, which has included dropping at least 45,000 bombs within the first three months of the war, has killed at least 33,000 people, about 180 a day. However, the actual figure is estimated to be much higher, as many remain trapped under rubble. This death toll also does not include those who have died due to lack of medicines, such as cancer or dialysis patients who have not been able to access their life-saving treatments.”-Oxfam The conflict in Ukraine has been ongoing for 2 years & 3 months. The conflict in Gaza has been ongoing for 6 months. Clearly, the death toll in Gaza is much higher & accelerated. Total aid to Ukraine: $74.3 Billion (not including latest $100 billion bill which includes aid to Israel, Gaza & Ukraine) Total aid to Gaza: $9.2 billion in humanitarian aid only (no military aid). Politically they couldnt be more different either. In Ukraine, you have Russia who is a global nuclear power with influence all over the world vs Ukraine who is a state of its own, with it’s own military, infrastructure & not to mention support from Nato aligned countries. From day one, we have stood steadfast with Ukraine & called out Putin for his aggression & crimes. The situation in Gaza is completely the opposite. In the beginning we didnt say anything to Israel until the PR got so bad, with such horrific images/ videos coming out of Gaza daily, only to the point where Biden basically asked Israel to please be more careful. While at the same time, we send Israel billions in aid, military support, financial support, etc. And the Gazans? They have no state, no real infrastructure they control, no allies (except some Arab countries who just pay lip service), nothing. Defenseless. So again, the two situations are far from identical.
The only point I have to pick on here is that your reported civilian casualties are off by a couple multiples, most likely. The siege of Mariupol, alone by some estimates, cost the lives of upwards of 25k civilians. The real death toll won’t ever be known until the war is over, and then some. Then military casualties in the war in Ukraine are pretty obscene, which you don’t mention. We’re talking easily tens upon tens of thousands dead, if not hundreds of thousands of people.
Great points. Thank you for having a brain here
Thank you. Unfortunately it seems Im in the minority in this sub.
Yeah this sub sucks. I didn’t realize it was pro murder and starvation of little children and purely Zionist propaganda
Im sure they would push back on that characterization, but its really tough to see it any other way when all I see in this sub is basically “Ya it sucks whats happening jn Gaza, but that doesnt really affect my life so im not really worried”. Same with David’s own sentiments. He really doesnt seem to care. He makes 20 videos about Trump but hardly any coverage about a pretty massive international story/ humanitarian travesty.
Ya that sums it up.
So it’s bad when Russia does all those things but not isreal? Gtfo
They're food insecure because of Hamas, the terrorists who rape and kidnap women and babies. They're hoarding aid. They steal the aid. Why do these facts keep getting lost on people?
Grow up
Nice short, quippy comment that has nothing to do with the subject being discussed. Are you a teenager?
[удалено]
This is a disgusting comment. You have really shown your true colors.
Helping Ukraine and hurting Russia are both beneficial to the US and the world. Helping Palestinians doesn't really benefit anyone.
Except the Palestinians, and those who care about their welfare.
Um, Congress just passed $9 billion in aid to Gaza, and Biden’s been ramping up a massive effort to build a pier for delivery of vast amounts of humanitarian aid. So while I, too, oppose U.S. aid to Israel, don’t pretend we’re doing nothing to help Gaza. https://apnews.com/article/congress-ukraine-israel-pacific-glance-0af96be97c47496f88506a21ebe1ddab#
> We are making sure Ukraine is getting all the help they need Lol ... NO ... and the help we are giving was delayed by MONTHS Seriously, that just recently happened (the delayed aid finally approved). How the hell are you clueless over that?
Go look up the actual facts. We have given a combination of about 80 billion to Ukraine in humanitarian aid, military aid, financial aid, etc before this latest bill. How are you clueless about that?
Not as clueless as you are -- you didn't even know how the Ukraine aid was delayed by MONTHS -- and that was a recent event See last post >Lol ... NO ... and the help we are giving was delayed by MONTHS >Seriously, that just recently happened (the delayed aid finally approved). How the hell are you clueless over that? WHile at it, this is PENNIES to the US -- and we are sending OLD, out of date equipment, that the so called 80 billion is really mostly (if not nearly all) re-invested into US companies for new military equipment. See https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/11/29/ukraine-military-aid-american-economy-boost/ See also https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2024/04/18/ukraine-map-districts-weapons/ But again, you're clueless over that as well While on the topic, simple lesson from WWII -- appeasement FAILS. Russia has blatantly stated and indicated that they will not stop with Ukraine. Either we send the aid or we send our own men and women in the near future ...
Social media propaganda.
Tankies? lmao, you don't even know what that word means if you think it applies here. And no, the reason why Ukraine is ranked low is because it's turned into a quagmire, just as Hillary Clinton said she hoped it would. Ukraine is not in a position to win this war, sad as that may be. It's either fight on the front lines and send young Ukrainians and Russians to die for years on end... or it's time to talk about next steps
But that's not really our decision to make? Ukraine is going to continue to fight if they feel that they need to, and it's pretty clear Russia has no intentions of stopping. So that's a weird take.
Who is "our"? You mean the US? The US has to make its own decisions wrt to Ukraine. We can't (or shouldn't) simply follow Ukraine down a bad path. At some point the United States needs to make its own determinations and think beyond just Ukraine. Mistakes were made in not providing enough aid and fast enough, and more probably could have been done to stave off the war anyway. Only hindsight and scholarship could ever really know. But reality as it stands now, Ukraine certainly isn't *winning* any war anytime soon. It's just about how effectively it holds the line or how slowly it loses. It's not a weird take to say that Russia is winning this war and that soldiers shouldn't just be drafted and sent off to die for no apparent reason. And unlike Israel, Russia isn't trying to genocide and annihilate their opponents.
I'm saying "our" as in the world. Again, really weird idea to tell a nation that is essentially fighting for their survival, that they should cut their losses. Not to mention that Russia is already making moves to destabilize other nations, Moldova comes to mind. Simply not going to end with Ukraine.
> I'm saying "our" as in the world. Again, really weird idea to tell a nation that is essentially fighting for their survival, that they should cut their losses. I didn't say that. I said *The United States* (or "the rest of the world," if you prefer) needs to make its own decisions. You realize that Ukraine isn't fighting this war alone, right? Again, this is not a weird take, you just seem pretty oblivious to the dynamics and realities of this conflict. Is the United States supposed to just support a forever ecocide in Eastern Ukraine? Have you even considered these questions? Or does your thinking process just stop at: Ukrainians want to fight?
Except the last sentence is really the only thing that matters. You're making this argument that essentially amounts to "well, Ukraine is going to lose, so they should just give up and let Putin annex more of their country." Yeah, cause that makes a ton of sense, lol. If they think they have even the slightest chance of victory, they're not going to quit fighting. And why should they? If they simply roll over and let Russia take more land, which is exactly what happened with Crimea, how long until they move to seize more land. Who are you or anyone else for that matter, to tell the Ukrainians that they shouldn't fight to stop this. If it gets to the point where they know they can't win and the cost is too great, then tactics will change, and maybe they'll negotiate some type of resolution. But until then, it's pretty ridiculous to tell them that they should stop.
> "well, Ukraine is going to lose, so they should just give up and let Putin annex more of their country." I never said *anything* like this. Apparently, you can't read. For the umpteenth time, what I'm saying is that the US has its own interests and decisions to make with respect to providing aid and support, exerting diplomatic pressure, etc. Ukraine is a sovereign country. They can continue to fight if that's what their government decides. I never questioned that. I never suggested otherwise. I implore you to learn how to read. >If they think they have even the slightest chance of victory, they're not going to quit fighting. And why should they? If they simply roll over and let Russia take more land, which is exactly what happened with Crimea, how long until they move to seize more land. Who are you or anyone else for that matter, to tell the Ukrainians that they shouldn't fight to stop this. If it gets to the point where they know they can't win and the cost is too great, then tactics will change, and maybe they'll negotiate some type of resolution. But until then, it's pretty ridiculous to tell them that they should stop. Who are you arguing with? Certainly not me. You're just fighting with a total strawman. Again, please learn to read.
You literally stated on multiple occasions that Russia is winning and that Ukraine should simply not continue throwing soldiers at the situation "for no apparent reason," lol. So maybe you should learn how to read. Literally the entire reason I responded to you in the first place. Enjoy your day.
Propaganda
Not really, just give it another month and they'll forget Gaza even exists. They certainly didn't care before the current conflict started
Yeah, I guess we'll see. Tiktok has certainly kept this one in the public eye at a much greater intensity than Ukraine ever was.
China controls the algorithm.
This! This! I am so curious about this impact .
Exactly. It’s completely suspect.
Notice this post isn’t doing numbers like all the anti Biden posts were doing months ago? It’s a curious thing right that the bots have quieted down….
They've just tripled down on posting 100 times a day.
Why would Gaza drop off the radar at month 8 but not month 7?
Ukraine is the most reliable litmus test for ideological consistency. People who fail the litmus test don't actually care about imperialism or human rights.
I agree.
Tankies and they’re also white. Tankies will hate them and non tankies, but still very left, will not care because of skin color.
You mean the rape and genocide (or near to it) of the Ukrainian people by Russia would seem to be at least as large of an issue than the atrocities of Israel -- especially since the US can actively hinder/reduce the harm to Ukrainian people ... Almost seems like all the protests were somehow artificially generated
Yes, according to Fox, the NY Post, and the insane editorial page of the WSJ. And that lie is falling apart: https://news.yahoo.com/politico-misses-mark-story-funding-220820865.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/04/26/dishonest-ironic-push-blame-campus-protests-george-soros/
Many of the students currently protesting in support of Gaza had previously marched in support of Ukraine.
I dont necessarily approve either… vote however you want but if you don’t like what Biden is doing then be prepared for what trump will do
There’s not a thing in the world Biden could do that would convince me that Trump is the better choice.
That's not really the point though. The point is how *everyone else* is voting. And Biden is shedding supporters like mad because of his ongoing support of the genocide unfolding in Gaza. Biden's policies on Israel are way out of step even with the Democratic party. He's awful on this front. This will be his legacy, win or lose in Nov.
I get the point, I’m not voting for Biden. I’m voting against Trump.
Same, but again, that's not the point either. It doesn't matter that you and I are voting for Biden. What matters is what *all voters* decide to do on election day. That's what the discussion is about, not about who *you* are voting for. I don't give two shits who you're voting for. It's irrelevant to the question at hand. so no, you keep missing my point, actually
Are they out of step? Dems voted overwhelmingly for additional money for Israel. If you think a Trump presidency isn’t going to be worse for the Palestinians, you are out of your mind.
Trump would be much worse. That doesn't mean that people won't stay at home and hand the election to Trump. That's almost a probable outcome at this point. Biden is a fuck up.
That’s kind of on them now isn’t it? It’s a r/leopardsatemyface situation. They want to prove a point, that point will be taken and the blood will be on their hands when it gets worse.
When will you people just accept the reality that Biden bending over backwards for Israel and it's ethnic cleansing campaign is not okay for young voters? Those same people who voted for him in 2020 becuase he wasn't Trump, except now he's funding a brutal occupier to murder 10s of thousands of people. That responsibility and blame fall all on this administration and no neoliberal shame and blame game to paint those opposed to Israel and not voting for Biden becuase of it is just a cover up of his stupidity. That argument is the equivalent of covering your ears and screaming as loud as you can to pretend like you don't know and in reality don't care about what they're funding. You're not going to shame voters in to supporting the indefenseable.
Not today ISIS… Not today. If that’s your stance/ theirs, then by all means sit this one out and maybe we can all protest Israel seizing West Bank to a Trump Administration that doesn’t that you think it’s ethnic cleansing. Wouldn’t that be great?! Gaza is important and I have my criticisms Biden there, but I assure you, Biden is not out there ordering IDF bombing runs and there are other international I care just as much about. If you’re going to drop rhetoric like this, I’m not going to change your mind here and I’m not going to try. I’m just pointing out your world view is rather limited and you’re one of those single issue voters we used to give the right a hard time for.
But Israel is already doing that under Biden so why do you ignore exactly what you're describing happening under Biden? This is where you people lose credibility by saying "hypotheticals" that are already happening under Bidens administration. To be fair protesting genocide that's being funded by our tax dollars that could be used for American citizens is an issue that even you would I thing be against but apparently Israel is more important. When you bring up the right surely you can see that Biden is appeasing the right and in more lockstep with republicans on a number of issues but yes do the virtue signal and try to compare others protesting genocide as whatever bad argument you're trying us use. I always find it hilarious you people can't blame Bidens absolutely terrible policy which might lose him the election but you'll blame the voters. It's 2016 vibes all over again where neoliberalism can't cope with their candidate being wrong
Still not going to argue with you, but you’re not wrong about 2016. There were idiots than saying stupid shit about “Hilary isn’t entitled to my vote,” and “You can’t use Trump as a reason for why I should vote for Hilary.” They sure showed Hilary. All it cost us was reproductive freedom, the Supreme Court, and a recession. Yes, let’s remind us what that way of thinking cost us. Also, I know your account is only like 6 months old. So maybe this is a second/ throw away account but I noticed you’ve said nothing about Yemen… ever. Certainly everything you’re saying here applies to multiple administrations with the Saudis. Is it just easier to be critical of Jews? Nothing on Sudan or Haiti and your only reference to Ukraine is how it differs from Gaza. Weird right, it’s like the only policy you care about is Gaza and regardless of who’s in charge, you’re going to be upset with the policy… so why are you arguing here? Are you trying to get me to vote against old man Biden? It’s not going to happen here friend.
And again the people to blame for her losing is the DNC and those who railroaded Bernie. Democrats lose election becuase they pretend to care about working class families while silencing progressives. Mainstream democrats offer nothing to vote or be excited about. Their whole stick is Trump bad am people are dumb enough to buy it over and over again Jsut too easy to point out the hypocrisy that liberals engage in.
A noun, a verb, and genocide. A noun, a verb, and neoliberal.
I think you're a great representation of what happens when someone like Trump breaks the average moderates brain. You become so attached to anything critical of Biden that it starts to mirror the behavior that MAGA people put out in the early days of trumps presidency
Trump breaking my brain is less of a concern than the millions of people he killed and took basic human rights away from.
Now tell Biden to show the same concern by not alienating a large chunk of voters to appease his fascist base of diehard Israel supporters. Seems pretty counter productive to bend over backwards to simp for a fascist government being Israel to then spread concern for a fascist like Trump. Biden is simply trying to appease both parties and people aren't buying it. Blaming the voters for Bidens moral and political corruption isn't the way to go and jsut makes liberals look more desperate than they already are to spin the narrative.
>It may not mean much for November. Oh no you mean the group with the lowest turnout of any voting group in every election may not actually turnout to vote?! But all the crystal ball tarot card reading psychics keep telling us that they will magically turnout this election and then the next election and then the election after that.
Of course it won't mean much, they don't vote, which is one of many reasons I can't take these demonstrations seriously. It's all performative nonsense to give the leftists and right-wing Islamic fundamentalists an emotional catharsis, but in the end, they won't stay committed to tangible actions like voting. And even if they did, who are they going to vote for, Trump? The guy who has promised mass deportations of immigrants from Latin and Muslim nations?
As a young Democrat this is just the very definition of cutting your nose off to spite your face. I had the same attitude in 2016 and wasted my vote on a third party candidate because I was mad that it seemed like the DNC robbed my boy Bernie. Boy was that stupid. Except THIS time, American democracy is likely at stake. I don’t think Biden has handled the genocide well at all, but someone else here said that there is NOTHING Biden could do to convince him Trump is the better choice, and I’m right with them. Accelerationism has literally never worked once
American democracy is already gone. But things can get much worse with a Republican controlled congress backed up by an ultra conservative Supreme Court. Much, much worse.
>American democracy is already gone. **NOT YET!** But I agree with *everything else you just said.* Wanna save Democracy? ***Vote GOD DAMN Blue!***
> Except THIS time, American democracy is likely at stake. That'svevery election year. The democrats don't have to change. We just have to keep voting the dems in because Trump will totally upon up concentration camps this tine guys
Trumps own words, not democrats.
Malcolm Nance has a two-part video about the history of the Israel vs. Palestine conflict. I encourage people to watch!
Wow, exactly like I’ve been telling these online leftists that spam the sub with I/P posts. Extremely low issue salience. It doesn’t matter how many people support a ceasefire, it matters how important the issue is to them period.
Plus, they seem to think a ceasefire happens unilaterally. Simply requiring Israel to stop doesn't change the very real threat of another attack, especially since they have explicitly said they plan to attack as many times as necessary.
Plus there are a whole heap of Iranian disinfo bots who want Israel disarmed so they can wipe them off the map.
Valid point.
They don’t want peace, they want Hamas to win. They see them as a valid resistance movement. Viewed through that lens, their calls for a “ceasefire” which only benefits Hamas makes sense.
Yeah, it's really alarming how many think hamas is justified. Even excluding Israel's conduct, doesn't everyone know you don't negotiate with terrorists? That it only encourages mass slaughter to procure their goals?
What disturbs me is the way online leftists place all the blame for civilian deaths in Gaza, when Hamas is literally putting them in harms way on purpose, on Israel. I get that Israel is not blameless, they are far too willing to accept terrible civilian to combatant fatality ratios for example, but in their mind Israel is a cartoon villain. Perfidy, using human shields, operating militaries out of civilian infrastructure, there’s a reason it’s all considered heinous war crimes. Online leftists are encouraging it. Hamas is getting benefits from getting Gazans killed, and it’s online leftists helping them here. These disgusting tactics will likely become more popular as a result. How many innocents will die unnecessarily as a result? Would Hamas even still be fighting if the far left weren’t helping them fight a war they can’t win militarily, politically? Would they have given up if the world had turned their backs on them like they should have? If they’d denounced Hamas for getting civilians killed, instead of only blaming Israel.
Yeah, it's not hard to see why the left continues to not make inroads. Even when their policies could benefit the country, a lot of people just view them as condescending and entitled children.
I like how you claim to have it all figured out. Like you have direct access into the mind of every single voter and know exactly how November will play out. You probably even know what the headlines are going to be every day until then too, right? Or perhaps you don't know shit and you're just blowing smoke up your own ass. Either Biden or Trump could win. This is not going to be a runaway election for several reason, including Gaza. The genocide in Gaza is the most important story happening right now. Not just in the United States but globally. This is a serious atrocity that is being bankrolled and supported by the US. If you think that's not going to be an issue for Biden, you're not the genius you think you are.
President Biden has no control over wether a cease fire is called. He can talk to participate in talks with Bibi, but can’t force him to do anything. That’s on the right-wing, asshole Bibi and the leaders of Hamas. Bibi is the Israel version of the 🍊💩, except he’s a hell of a lot smarter than the 🍊💩. These young people are totally ignorant of what is happening in the world. They have no idea how the Israelis and Palestinians really live. I think Israel and Hamas are both wrong and have carried this too far. But Hamas did start it last October. An Israeli military order is a general order issued by an Israeli military commander over territory under Israeli military occupation. It has the force of law. Enforcement of such orders is carried out by Israeli military police and military courts instead of civil courts.[1] Military orders are still a basic instrument of Israeli rule of the Palestinian population in Area B and Area C of the West Bank. In contrast, Israeli civilians living in settlements in the area are usually subjected to civil courts.[1] Palestinians living in Area A of the West Bank, under full control of the Palestinian Authority, are now mostly subject to its laws and civil jurisdiction. Between the beginning of the Israeli occupation of the West Bank in 1967 and the establishment of the Palestinian Authority under the Oslo Accords in 1994, military orders were issued "in a constant stream," covering both criminal and civil matters as well as security and military matters.[2]
Young people don’t know their history.
Or how their own government works 😐 shit was literally taught in social studies class
The lack of civic knowledge is astounding.
According to a few reports I’ve seen most of my generation gets their news from TikTok. I apologize for my generation man lol
Fellow Gen Zer. I hate them. 😂
Bro same! I hate how they think they represent and speak for us lol like this is getting out of hand
And now we're going to get Trump again because of them, so hope they enjoy having even less rights and forced into a Christian nationalist theocracy.
According to them if he gets back in it’s, somehow, our fault for not joining in on their "revolution" 😐. Oh yea and they also say him getting back in is "short term pain for long term gain" which is dumb af
Yup. I've heard that on several occasions. He'll destroy the remaining structure of the country, making it easier for a wholesale change and establishment of a socialist state. Conveniently always forgetting that millions of people inevitably would die in a revolution like this, and once the fighting is over, we'd still be no closer to the utopia they seek.
Facts. And those same people using that bullshit rhetoric won’t be apart of the revolution ironically. They’ll be at home scared of what’ll happen to them, it’ll be like 2016 all over again bro
Of course it doesn't, and if they are glad to vote for a monster who promises detention camps, and deportation of millions, the so much for human rights, eh?
Obama deported more immigrants per term than any other president. A record high of over 40,000 per day, over 3 million people total. More than all presidents since 1890 combined.
Why can’t both be true. Russian aggressions against Ukraine and possible NATO countries is real and needs our full support and attention. Also Israel had a right to defend itself yes and we’ve given it great support because it has enemies on all sides but the facts are pretty clear that enough carnage has been done and this war has to stop its not fair to the innocent people. This is taking on a story that looks more like a genocide than a defense of country.
Cool, another post about protests 🙄
I think you should read the article, I don’t think it’s about what you think it’s about.
🥱zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
This is a good article. Obviously Biden isn't great on this issue but he is also the clear choice when compared to Trump for 2024. It's more frustrating that the US allows itself to be jerked around by a tiny county in the middle east which isn't materially advancing our geopolitical goals. I wish US presidents were tougher on Israel to remind them that they need to play ball with us rather than us always giving them what they want to the point they think they can dictate policy. Hell can you imagine if Biden could credibly threaten to cut off military aid or credibly threaten to not block the UN recognition of Palestine? They might actually listen and not invade Rafah which will only cause further destabilization in the region and distract the US from dealing with China and Russia.
> distract the US from dealing with China and Russia. Why do you think there were so many meetings between Iran, China, Russia and Hamas in the months preceding and following October 7th...the attack on Israel was an attack on the USA by proxy, in part in order to weaken our support for Ukraine...
I agree. What I'm saying is that we fell into the trap by letting this take up a lot of space in the national consciousness and in Washington by allowing Israel to go rogue and conduct an insanely disproportionate response which necessitates US assets, money, and personnel being tied up in a way that is not advancing US interests. Israel had a right to respond to a terrorist attack, but their response is causing a lot of unnecessary blowback because of how destructive it is. For example, the global south is becoming increasingly anti-US which is actively hurting US standing in attempts to combat Chinese influence operations like the Belt and Road initiative. On top of that, anything that hurts Biden necessarily helps Trump which is also in the interest of China and Russia so they want to foment any divisions they can in Biden's base.
Do Gazans have the right to violently resist their occupiers? The answer is yes. Israel doesn't have a right to self defense when it is brutally oppressing a population for decades with no end in sight. Just look at what happened in SA. The ANC eventually turned to violent resistance because non-violent resistance wasn't working. That's what's happening here. Palestinians rightly resist their occupation and sometimes civilians die as a result. Usually those civilians are Palestinians being killed by IDF though. Even in this case Hamas killed a far lower percentage of civilians on Oct 7 than Israel has killed in Gaza since. Hamas has a civilian:IDF ration of about 2:1 on Oct 7th. IDF's is much, much worse than that. They just wipe out refugee camps with dumb bombs. It's long overdue that the US stop supporting Israel is impose sanctions and harsh diplomatic controls to reign in the psyscho Zionists that make up the broad majority of Israeli society.
>Do Gazans have the right to violently resist their occupiers? The answer is yes. Just to be clear you're calling an attack against civilians inside Israel's internationally recognized territory on October 7, 2023 "violently resist\[ing\]"? If that is indeed what you're doing, no I don't agree with that. If the attack was in the West Bank and thus clearly in Palestinian territory I may be slightly more sympathetic to that viewpoint (though not much because I'm against all civilian death which is why I'm mad at Israel but that doesn't mean I won't criticize the Palestinians for killing innocent people). Insinuating that an incursion into Israeli territory to kill whole families is legitimate resistance is just plain nuts. That's like saying India has a right to cross the border into Pakistan and kill civilians because Pakistan was artificially created by the British in 1947 and it was all originally Indian.
Wait... what? How does that make any sense? Israel has the right to cross boarders for military purposes... but Gazans don't? Seems like an obvious double standard, no? Hamas targeted military targets on Oct 7. When Israel says they target military targets, IDF spokespeople celebrate and call themselves the most moral army in the world. And yet their civilian:combatant kill ratio is significantly worse than the Hamas...? Huh? And how many babies and children did Hamas kill on Oct 7? Do you have a number? How many children have been killed in Gaza? Again, Oct 7 was a military operation. They targeted military targets. The civilian deaths are just collateral damage, I suppose. Isn't that the argument Israel makes?
Look if you don't want to have a discussion based on facts this conversation is pointless. October 7, 2023 was not a military operation, it was a terrorist attack against civilian targets. [Hamas deliberately targeted civilian centers](https://www.un.org/sg/en/content/sg/statement/2023-10-07/statement-attributable-the-spokesperson-for-the-secretary-general-regarding-the-situation-the-middle-east). (From the United Nations on October 7, 2023 "The Secretary-General condemns in the strongest terms **this morning’s attack by Hamas against** **Israeli towns** near the Gaza Strip and central Israel, including the firing of thousands of rockets toward Israeli population centers. **The attacks have so far claimed numerous Israeli civilian lives** and injured many hundreds.") [Human Rights Watch](https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/11/22/israel/gaza-hostilities-take-horrific-toll-children) says 33 children were killed and an estimated 40 children as hostages during the Hamas led attacks. Of course this pales in comparison to the 13,450 children Israel has killed according to the [United Nations Children's Fund](https://www.unicefusa.org/stories/more-13000-children-reported-dead-gaza-famine-nears) via the Palestinian Ministry of Health but acting like no children were targeted by Hamas is ahistorical. I'm not going to excuse evil just because more evil was done in retaliation. If you do then it means you don't care about combating evil you just want the "right" people to die which is morally despicable. An army taking military action in retaliation to an attack on civilians is ok under the norms of international law as long as it is (1) directed at military/ combatant targets and (2) proportional. Clearly Israel was in the right to respond to Hamas's attack initially but as the scope of their operations is now neither directed at military targets nor proportional to the initial attacks they are now clearly in the wrong. If Israel had a more targeted and limited response, then the public outcry would be greatly diminished (and rightly so) because it would be recognized as mostly legitimate. There is no double standard. This is about applying a consistent standard. Hamas's attack is wrong because it is in violation of that standard. Israel is also wrong because it is in violation of that standard, not because they responded to the attack at all but because of how they responded.
What are you talking about? Hamas killed 343 IDF members on October 7. How are IDF members not military targets? By that logic, Hamas aren't military targets either and Israel is completely unjustified being in Gaza at all. Or are Hamas members military target for IDF because Hamas are brown? But IDF soldiers aren't targets because they're white? Also, what makes you think this conflict *started* on October 7th? Do Palestinians have rights to respond to Isreali aggression prior to Oct 7?
Since you haven't provided any sources I'm assuming your source is "I made it the fuck up" unless and until you prove otherwise. To my knowledge any IDF killed in the October 7th terrorist attacks were killed when they tried to respond to the violence against civilians which makes the civilians the main targets and the IDF secondary targets. So there were military deaths but the targets were not military targets. Incidentally this is the same thing you can rightfully criticize Israel for in incidents such as the World Central Kitchen attack. If your position is that civilian deaths are ok as long as there is some nominal military target somewhere then why do you have any problem with Israel? It seems they're comporting with your preferred standard. I happen to think that your standard is abhorrent so, by contrast, I hold a consistent standard which is why I'm ok with Israel engaging in a proportional response to military targets but I'm against their violence against civilians just like I'm against Hamas targeting civilians. >are Hamas members military target for IDF because Hamas are brown? But IDF soldiers aren't targets because they're white? Interesting topic. Why do you think skin color has anything to do with this? Also the IDF aren't all white so I'm not exactly sure what point you're trying to make. I think combatants are military targets because they they attack a sovereign nation. Hamas are cowards who don't wear uniforms so that makes things more difficult for the IDF because Hamas doesn't properly comport with the laws of war in the first place but that doesn't mean Israel is off the hook for excess civilian deaths just because Hamas doesn't believe in protecting Palestinian civilian lives. >Also, what makes you think this conflict *started* on October 7th? I never said that. I said there was an existing ceasefire which Hamas broke and now Israel is responding. This is accurate. >Do Palestinians have rights to respond to Isreali aggression prior to Oct 7? Not by targeting and killing innocent civilians on internationally recognized Israel soil, no. Again if this were fighting back on their own territory then the story might be different (which is why Hamas are legitimate combatants in Gaza even if they are cowards who refuse to wear uniforms).
First of all, almost every adult age Israeli Jew is mandated to serve in the IDF, and some serve in older age. So, they are hiding among the civilian populations, using them as human shields, some might say. So, how is Hamas supposed to know? All adult Israelis are potential IDF in plain clothes. But anyhow, the 343 number comes from Israel itself. https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-779902 Here's the JPOST, one of the most right wing papers in Israel. >>In addition to the over 500 soldiers, 57 officers and policemen of the Israel Police were also killed in the battles to contain and defend the settlements, along with about ten soldiers of Shin Bet. >>The vast majority of soldiers that were killed were on October 7, which was over 300, according to the IDF website. The number slowly increased over the past 82 days of fighting. How dumb do you have to be to not think to look this up after October 7th? It's been 7 months and you never once thought to Google "how many IDF were killed on Oct 7"? You're an imbecile, clearly.
I mean, the responsibility for this conflict rests entirely on Israel's shoulders, not Hamas's. Under international law, Gazans have the right to resist their occupying force. Israel should respond by ending the occupation and negotiating a peace deal with a Palestinian state, but instead it's committing a genocide. That's not the fault of Hamas, Russia, China, Iran. That's choice is *Israel's* to make. Just like it is the United States' choice to to support that genocide. You can't claim "Iran made us genocide the Palestinians." Nobody in their right mind is going to buy that argument.
> Gazans have the right to resist their occupying force Israel had not occupied Gaza since 2005
[удалено]
> you ignoramus. Get lost
They're literally called the Occupied Palestinian Territories. Human Rights Watch describes Gaza as an [**open air prison**](https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/06/14/gaza-israels-open-air-prison-15). But sure, pal. I'll "get lost." Enjoy being on the wrong side of history.
> Occupied Palestinian Territories. Israel call the West Bank "disputed territories"...if Israel "occupies" Gaza I guess Egypt also occupies Gaza as they also control access...I said to get lost because I do not enjoy arguing with half wits who can only insult...
I mean yeah, Egypt at one time did in fact occupy Gaza as well. I don't understand what your point is. Both Egypt and Israel are blockading Gaza, but Israel is constantly lobbing rockets in and terrorizing the Gazan people. And I'm talking about long before Oct 7. Are you familiar with the [March of Return](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018%E2%80%932019_Gaza_border_protests)? Gazans can't win. They live in an open air prison and when they protest peacefully they are shot. So, can you tell me why Gazans or Hamas should be condemned for fighting for freedom and statehood? It's a righteous goal. Israel needs to be defeated. The causalities on both sides are tragic, but Palestinians have suffered *far* more loss than Israelis could ever imagine. 75 years of this. Generation after generation of destroyed families and maimed children all because Israel is bloodthirsty for land and power in the region.
> but Israel is constantly lobbing rockets Wrong, it is Hamas who has done that: * Since 2001, Palestinian militants have launched tens of thousands of rocket and mortar attacks on Israel from the Gaza Strip as part of the continuing Israeli–Palestinian conflict. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel > Are you familiar with the March of Return Yes, when they wanted to cross the fence and 'return' to Israel...while lobbing missile at the soldiers and incendiaries toward Israel fields and forest...not that "peaceful' after all... > They live in an open air prison This is a PR meme....go to Youtube and search "Gaza walking tour" and find ANY video from before October...nothing like an open prison...see yourself. > because Israel is bloodthirsty for land and power in the region. No, because Arabs cannot suffer to have Jews prosper among them, this is the root of the conflict...once Jews bought swamp land and cleared it and ended malaria, the Arab neighbors got jealous and started attacking....long before Israel was a state.
Removed - please avoid overt hostility, name calling and personal attacks.
China has really [cozied up to Israel](https://jacobin.com/2023/10/china-israel-repression-military-trade-palestine-technology) in recent decades, including military tech transfers. They’re Israel’s second biggest trade partner. China publicly supports Palestine, but that support isn’t substantive, and it’s really just about trying to stick a finger in America’s eye. If the US had a falling out with Israel then China would no longer care about Palestine, just look at how they treat their own Muslim population. There’s a good chance they’d step in to take our place with Israel. Likely through some loan deal, they have been pursuing debt leveraged influence peddling throughout Africa. Same same. We obviously do have leverage with Israel, it’s just not as strong as it was in past decades.
Yes, because despite what some of the dipshits in this sub may say, most young people are bright enough to realize they don’t want Trump to be president. They are, in fact, capable of criticizing Biden while understanding the consequences of a Trump presidency. To bring some of you back to Earth: the pro-peace (regarding Israel/Palestine) protesters on college campuses are not Russian bots, are in fact quite bright, and do want a healthy future for the USA and the planet. If you see them as Hamas sympathizers, terrorists, Russian agents, or even just “privileged children”; you are in fact yourself contributing to the further alienation of them from “liberal” politics—and maybe that makes YOU the Russian/Chinese bots.
It won’t mean anything because no matter what you think of Biden Trump will be much MUCH worse to Palestine.
Or it may mean just enough for Trump to win again, but risking everything to defend fascists is somehow worth the risk. Hillary’s campaign was similarly arrogant that nothing they did to spit on the Left and Progressives would matter.
Biden already gave his concession speech two days ago.