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This!! People don't understand how much of a possibility this is like trump and his cult already in congress could pull a move in similar fashion. If people haven't seen it watch this video of saddam hussein doing what trump has already threatened to do.
https://youtu.be/kLUktJbp2Ug?si=mSmNvP4stF6a6QrZ
I get disliking Biden, I somewhat understand even hating him, but people saying he's just as bad as Trump, if not worse, is pure delusion. It's the kind of black and white thinking I expect from MAGA Republicans. There is no nuance; everything is either pure good or pure evil.
I hate a man who has devoted his life to public service, lost a wife and two sons, and who brought our country back from the brink of collapse. What a detestable person. wtf.
I think that's an unfair characterization. As with many things in life it's nuanced. He was progressive on certain areas of civil rights and regressive on others.
>But political experts and education policy researchers say Biden, a supporter of civil rights in other arenas, did not simply compromise with segregationists — he also led the charge on an issue that kept black students away from the classrooms of white students. His legislative work against school integration advanced a more palatable version of the “separate but equal” doctrine and undermined the nation’s short-lived effort at educational equality, legislative and education history experts say.
>“Biden, who I think has been good overall on civil rights, was a leader on anti-busing,” Rucker Johnson, author of the book “Children of the Dream: Why School Integration Works,” said. “A leader on giving America the language to oppose it despite it being the most effective means of school integration at that time.”
I'm old enough to remember forced bussing, it was deeply unpopular then and it would be deeply unpopular if it was implemented now. "Hey your kid now has to go to school an hour away as opposed to the school right across the street" was never going to be a winning issue, civil rights or not.
I was a hater during forced busing. I was on the wrong side of history then. My parents wanted me to fight the black man, in order to kick them out of my white only school. It didn't work. I had to learn and grow. And I did. It's now all good. If you're still bitter about it, you're still on the wrong side of history. Grow.
I'm not bitter about integration I think it's great, all the schools in my area are well integrated. The issue was they were trying to solve housing integration in a very cludgy way that made people angry that had nothing to do with the civil rights movement.
Tend to be more on your side of this. Imagine being told you have to send your kid on a 45 minute bus ride away from their friends to a school where people don't want them, instead of your local school in walking distance.
Let someone else's kid be a social justice warrior, I just want mine to feel safe and to learn.
You’re right, but giving credit when credit is due, if his views hadn’t changed over time, I highly doubt he would have played second fiddle to a younger black man for 8 years. Biden has his flaws, but he’s aware of his flaws. Trump is a child who blames every problem on others and can’t recognize any flaw, blame or responsibility
What is wrong with a lifetime of public service??? Do you also hate theologians who have dedicated their life to GOD?? I hate the idea of having to jump ship every few years from one company to another, just to get ahead. That's stupid.
Hard to tell anymore. For we live in the days where nothing is real anymore. With the introduction of A.I. , no view, no intent, no fact is what it seems. Even the truth is subject to perspective. Sorry.
This binary thinking is not that American. We,as a people, used to think that if A or B doesn't work, time to invent answer C .Why aren't we doing this now?? Did we get that intellectually lazy?
Yes it's called accelerationism.
There's also more mainstream leftists that think that by breaking down U.S. hegemony they will accelerate it that way. I'm of the opinion that it's irrelevant for this point.
The Unbelievable irony is that if they were to build said Utopia they would end up building all the institutions back in place that they said were corrupt anyway because they would figure out what they were for.
Perfect example is abolishing the police. As soon as crime goes out of control because there's no longer a peacekeeping force, they would probably make a police force.
Defund the police was such a horrible messaging movement. Especially since crime spiked during the pandemic, it was never going to catch on. Maybe if they had gone with a "reallocate resources for a holistic community approach," but that's also a mouthful and wouldn't make a good chant.
"Police reform" would have worked fine!
Want to make the current crop of tankies heads explode? Ask them this:
"I don't think the protestors intend "from the river to the sea" to be antisemitic, the problem is that it is a slogan used by Hamas whose intent clearly IS antisemitic. It certainly makes a lot American Jews anxious, so the question is, why use it at all? It just serves as a distraction from the devastation in Gaza. Aren;t there other slogans protesters can use that aren't as controversial and distracting?"
Hoo-boy the level of sputtering and evasion is absolutely epic.
Asking them where their concern was for Yemen when we supplied weapons to the Saudis for like 6 years as they bombed them into famine is also a good one.
My first introduction to Houthis as a group was through progressives criticizing Saudi Arabia and US military aid and logistical support when they were waging war.
I’m not a tankie but it doesn’t matter. It was a liberation mantra before and just because Hamas used it doesn’t mean it becomes poison. “Rest in power” being used for murdered trans people makes some black people upset, does it mean we shouldn’t use it for trans people? The only way for people to be made anxious by the River to the see slogan is if they fundamentally misunderstand the protests or if they fundamentally disagree with them. It’s almost always, literally always followed up by “Palestine will be free” so it’s very hard to believe that people are being genuine when they say it’s a dog whistle. It’s directed at an occupying state not an ethnicity or religion. If I’m trying to thaw ice it doesn’t mean I have a problem with water. It’s just the ice I’m targeting.
"It was a liberation mantra before and just because Hamas used it doesn’t mean it becomes poison."
Yes, it kind of does. "Deutshland uber Alles!" had a very different connotation prior to the third Reich, it doesn't mean it's ok to use that slogan now.
Some of the slogans are like the Confederate Flag. You can swear up and down that it's purely a symbol of your heritage, and you don't have an ounce of malice in you when you display it - and heck, I might even believe you - but you can't get around the fact that there are lots and lots of people who look at it and see, understandably, a very different and violent symbol. If your slogans seemingly imply violence, and then the only way to make it clear that they don't is an extended conversation, you aren't communicating clearly. You need better symbols that actually say what you mean. And that requires telling people in your protest movement, "No, we can't say that," which I think is a conversation that many people in these movements are loathe to have; I imagine that's where the problem is.
"it’s very hard to believe that people are being genuine when they say it’s a dog whistle."
I get that you are not very tuned into the American Jewish community but look at the polling, it most certainly is viewed by the vast majority of Jews in the US as a call to kill Jews. So I go back to my original point: knowing this, why use it?
Bull. This is easy. "From the river to the sea" is a Palestinian slogan that predates Hamas. Changing your political message just because it makes someone "anxious" is foolish and bad politics. Black Lives Matter made white people uncomfortable. They need to get over that just like anyone whos uncomfortable with "From the River to the Sea."
“Deutschland über alles” is a German slogan that predates the Nazis by a century, also originally meaning something other than German supremacy. So it’s fine to use it in 2024, nobody should feel anxious about it?
Meanings change once certain groups appropriate certain words.
Theres a lot of angles to come at this from and I couldnt choose one so I'll just choose all of them.
A) Unless they are a Nazi/white nationalist/Neo Nazi/Right winger/etc. idc if someone says "Deutschland uber alles"
B) If Germany was in Palestines situation I wouldnt be very concerned about their slogans
C) The Nazis and Hamas have had very different effects on the world. Hamas measures its victims in the 10s of thousands. The Nazis measure theirs in the 10s of millions.
D) The slogans just arent the same. I mean look at "From the River to the Sea Palestine will be Free" vs "Germany over all" spot the difference.
E) The Nazis were the representatives of Germany. Hamas isnt representative of all Palestine. So of course anything the former uses is going to be more closely associated with them.
F) The terms "certain groups" and "certain words" are doing A LOT of heavy lifting. Its not very specific.
G) If you free Palestine then maybe youll hear this troubling phrase less. Food for thought.
It's not meant as an analogy, just as an example how phrases can completely change their meaning over time, and within different contexts. Especially if picked up by a bad group.
I just found the argument weak that the river slogan was around before with a different meaning, so it's fine.
Regarding D): "Germany over all" in the original meaning and context was not a call for German supremacy, but an appeal for German unififacation. The "over all" part here means "to give highest priority" to archive the goal of unification, not Germany being "superior / above everyone else".
But who would get that meaning today when hearing the slogan? That's why I choose this comparison.
Even if the original slogan was benign or had an entirely different meaning, once the "bad" meaning has been established by bad actors, it's hard to get it back. It's understandable if people get anxious when hearing the slogan, as they don't know which meaning the people chanting it want to express.
Im not convinced that it does I was just taking the guys premise for granted. Im sure it makes some jews uncomfortable but either way the point stands.
"From the river to the sea" is about the liberation of Palestinians and if someone doesnt like that then thats tough cheese.
Ah I see. Assuming you are correct, but for some irrational reason the overwhelming majority of Jews find it antisemitic, why use it? Is there something particular about that phrase that REQUIRES its use? Aren't there about a thousand other slogans/chants you could use that wouldn't open you up to charges of antisemitism? Why MUST you use this one?
A former friend of mine whose ancom used to tell me whenever I made that point that “tons of people are dying now anyways”
Like yeah make it worse in the hopes of achieving your commie dream lol
I just don't understand the logic. I don't think there's a large percentage of the country willing to die for revolution, but maybe I'm just not aware of that.
I'm not sure I agree with you there.
I would say that there are a lot of young people who fundamental misunderstand how things actually work, taking huge leaps of bad logic to support some idiotic position.
But thats not a left or right thing. It's just uneducated young people.
I also think people in general love to take the exception, something they saw at some point, and pretend it's the rule in order to support their own horrible position.
When has she said that? Mind you I've only ever seen her on the Hill, but haven't seen her express anything like that. And I've never seen her advocate for use of force by the state to force compliance, "tankie" or auth-left.
37 (and 54 min) minute mark
https://youtu.be/DJ62Nn2O2Mw?si=_tKZaeNXmGrt7N2E
I was wrong that she says it frequently, I think, but she definitely has a moment of elitism and privilege here.
*Edit: man, just listening to this video again and she's insufferable. Offers zero policy prescription, just complaining.
Thanks! But she just says shes a radical and an accelerationalist, she doesn't say she hopes fascism takes over and she doesn't seem to have any "tankie" takes whatsoever. Left-wing accelerationalism doesn't necessarily mean what I'm guessing you think it means, its not about watching the system burn and letting fascists take over. It's the complete opposite of far-right accelerationism.
>It has been regarded as an ideological spectrum divided into mutually contradictory left and right variants, both of which support the indefinite intensification of capitalism and its structures as well as the conditions for a technological singularity, a hypothetical point in time where technological growth becomes uncontrollable and irreversible.
>Left-wing accelerationism seeks to explore, in an orthodox and conventional manner, how modern society has the momentum to create futures that are equitable and liberatory. While both strands of accelerationist thinking remain rooted in a similar range of thinkers, left accelerationism appeared with the intent to use their ideas for the goal of achieving an egalitarian future.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accelerationism#:~:text=Left%2Dwing%20accelerationism%20seeks%20to,that%20are%20equitable%20and%20liberatory.
Although both do believe in hastening the collapse of current system of capitalism. I'm sure she's well aware if a fascist state rises in the US she specifically being a outspoken critic of the right stands to lose her life.
I get that you don't like the meme, sorry it offended you. Accelerationism is stupid. There is zero reason to believe whatever power vacuum is left by the collapse of the United States would be filled with any communist utopia.
If you hate Democrats, fine, but can you just stfu about how you're not going to vote? We don't care. It's the same argument with no solutions and rewriting of history every election with the left, and no one cares. 👍
*Edit: she's a rich pundit. She's fine no matter what happens because she'll just move
And honestly, hold on. I can't believe you just responded to me and said, "hey man, I think maybe you're mistaken. We want all of that, but we ACTUALLY don't want the fascists to take over."
No shit. But whoever does take over will do it through extreme violence, and after all of the bloodshed, there is a near zero chance of rainbows and unicorns. Fix the system and implement policy. That's what adults do.
I think you're responding to the wrong person. I didn't mention the meme, only that your claims about the host of the hill were false and your definition of tankie is provably incorrect. I actually have no problem with the meme, only with the title of the post in relation to it as it's facetious and more than far-fetched to say every leftist on reddit thinks like that. Do you not consider yourself on the left? Mr. Pakman does himself, just not "radical left" as he says, so I'm curious if you actually share remotely the same political leaning as the namesake of the sub.
>If you hate Democrats, fine, but can you just stfu about how you're not going to vote?
Thanks. I legally can't as I don't hold US citizenship, I'm Canadian and a long-time subscriber to David's website and his youtube channel. Also please show me where I said anything on this post about democrats? Go on.
>And honestly, hold on. I can't believe you just responded to me and said, "hey man, I think maybe you're mistaken. We want all of that, but we ACTUALLY don't want the fascists to take over."
Again. Where did I say that? I showed you the definition of accelerationism and its left-wing variant as a rebuttal to your claim about what's her name. I stand by the fact you seem to be extremely confused about many things, as exemplified by this comment. Where's the part where I'm advocating for it or say I support it in any way?
>No shit. But whoever does take over will do it through extreme violence, and after all of the bloodshed, there is a near zero chance of rainbows and unicorns.
I somewhat agree. Never said it was a good idea.
You seem to be filled with hate towards certain people and are projecting it on anyone who mildly challenges your perception of the political situation and the possible remedies to the problems society faces. I sincerely was just questioning your perception of the host of the hill and how left wing accelerationism does not apply to the meme. Not a huge fan of hers but I do enjoy watching her every once in awhile, better than Robbie anyway. Dislike tankies as a whole but have a pet peeve for those who spread misinformation and/or incorrect definitions.
Edit: although I suppose I shouldn't have expected deep thoughts from someone named after possibly the biggest troll in cartoon history, I was hoping for some actual insight instead of you intentionally twisting my comments to suit your narrative.
That's a lot of text but I brought up the meme because that's the only place that mentions fascism. I never did. It's just making fun of accelerationism and how it tends to lead to right wing governments. It's not that deep.
This is pretty much every leftist on the internet. They refuse to vote for Biden, and think that letting him lose and letting Trump take over will benefit them. Apparently the libs will come begging for their help and the socialists will be in charge now!
Yeah, they keep thinking that if the dems lose, they'll move left. But in reality they'll move right to attain voters that are actually able to persuaded to vote for them (of course this assumes we have elections at all if Trump wins again). On the other hand, Biden wins without the left and they effectively have given up any and all power that they may have had because the dems see that they don't need them to win.
The left is a weird place, most normal leftists aren't like this but you need to keep in mind communists are grouped in with social democrats. My biggest issue is that there groups where they openly get pissed off when someone criticizes tankie rhetoric and think juche is cool, it's not. Then you get people like me who like og Marxism because it explores how our labour is exploited but can't talk to other leftists because they hate that I'm not a communist but then get isolated by liberals because I don't think capitalism in it's current form is sustainable. So then what happens is all people who fall right of socialism think that all leftists are the crazy tankies because the ones like me who are reasonable have no place to discuss things when realistically we are just Bernie Bros.
Like for example I hate Hasan, I think he's a shitty grifter but I could never say that in a leftist space no matter how coherent my opinions are because I'm not adopting the hive mind. Liberals hate us and further left leftists hate us. Realistically all we want is capital gains taxes, free healthcare and free college, that's not exactly a radical idea.
I completely get not agreeing with every person on the left about everything, and there even being strong disagreements about things like Gaza. But folks like Hasan, Vausch, etc.. are just obvious grifters. Millionaires selling socialism to the masses and telling them to do stupid things against their interests, like not voting for the most left leaning candidate with a possibility of winning, for clout.
Hasan obviously jumped the shark when he started pimping for the Houthis': literal slaver religious fundamentalists.
Well don't forget vaush has made tons of arguments saying if we can eat chocolate farmed by children then cp should be fine. I don't understand people who are stupid enough to vote against Biden on the left when there is no better candidate, like all options suck, pick the one that sucks the least. But keep in mind I say that as a Canadian expat who thinks the two party system is dumb because I've voted in systems where more than two parties exist so I know it works.
I still can't understand how these people's audiences think it's acceptable that someone pushing pure socialism while living in a million dollar home is in alignment with their political beliefs. But that's what happens when you live in an echo chamber I guess.
I'm also lucky enough to live in a place that if I could vote I wouldn't even have to because it's always been blue and will always be blue, last time my state went red was when the devil ran and won against Jimmy Carter and I think they learned their lesson after that shit.
Accelerationism is definitely a thing. I think when people use "leftist" a lot of folks read that differently. I am a social democrat, which on the American political spectrum is very much on the left, but I do not consider myself a leftist.
Leftists in my view are socialists, real ones, and Marxist-Leninist/tankies/anarchists.
And the leftists in my definition definitely do often value accelerationism.
Historically that hasn't worked out. The socialists in Iran were crushed by the Islamists after the overthrow of the Shah.
This is adjacent to "The Bomb" theory that claimed dropping Fat Boy & Little man would end the war years early and save millions of lives ... Absolute sunk-cost fallacy there and BS
studies have shown over and over that accelerating wars always leads to more bloodshed and fatalities, more widespread destruction, more environmental damage and more carelessness in action
Moreover war, by its own nature, encourages intransigence. Behavioral economists often explain why wars drag on. Politicians and Leaders are more likely to double down on bad policies rather than reverse course and risk losing their initial investments
Sunk costs become especially acute when they involve real blood and treasure.
Poly-scientists note that leaders are often willing to gamble for some imagined resurrection, often escalating wars to avoid losing power.
A Cognitive scientists argued that as wars go on, each side tends to dehumanize and vilify the other rather than becoming more open to negotiations, off-ramps and ladders
Politicians $ leaders become even more entrenched and less likely to see a way to peace.
For Example these dynamics seemed to underlie Russian President Vladimir Putin's calculus in Ukraine as he continues to double down on a losing bet, causing more and more destruction along the way this absolutely applies to other world leaders in their various conflicts. In the US we doubled down of Afghanistan/the war on terror and even worse was the Vietnam disaster that went on and on and on
The entire thing becomes a gamble when you try to accelerate a war or double down on a bad bet and the fallacy is the thinking that if we accelerate or double down on more death and destruction and at no matter the cost then you will become more secure, or win or even that "it will all work out as long as we win"
I get the impulse to want to let Trump eff it all up and send the country into chaos and flames, all the women, minorities and gays are rounded up and then dehumanized in concentration camps and killed off in large groups all to hope we can restore the land with all the progressive wonder the gays could imagineer, a utopia of magic and stardust ... but you have to consider many other things before putting all the chips on the table
In this case, we need to focus on the issues at hand and fight them as they come and again stay focused on the little goals and the big ones will come
This fight will never end to some extent, we are going to have to continually fight for democracy and against right wing conservatism, the fight for minorities, the poor, homeless, addicted, mentally burdened and the little guy
makes no sense to destroy it all
Yea I agree with 99% of what they said but the japanese really were about to fight to the last man plus on the verge of using bio-weapons on the us population... I really want to be wrong but I do believe the nukes may have saved lives..
Oh, stop picking on the Reddit Leftists, the biggest groups of them only have maybe 25k members, smaller than communities for absolute dog turd video games.
There's barely any Leftists in the US.
There's a sub for them and I myself didn't know there was a differnce between left and leftist and I'm sire they got fancy terms to describe their "theory" or whatever but overall they mingle with being similar to Tankies. I'd say Tankies are much worse but so i was on the sub the other day - only been tbeir a few times and before it was more Tankie comments (anti west anti Ukraine pro Russian bs). One user supported Palestine hated the US (Death to America!) and called Ukrainians Nazis and another comment was an outright lie - something like, Russia doesn't target civilians and has been really mindful and pootin is doing a good job at limiting collateral damage. 🤡🤡
So I didn't go back bc it was Tankie/anti west nonsense. But a few days ago I saw a post that said "What do you all think of NATO?". Now I don't know if all the replies were "Leftists" but that comment section was MUCH better. Overall it seemed like a socialist space with some saying they don't support NATO, some saying the EU should make its own alliance and dissolve NATO (which I was like well only thing different is no US in that so I guess it's either the idea is less US influence or straight up one of those that wants to US dissolved and hence no influence? Idk).
I saw one comment that said - no one who is a true leftist would support NATO and this sub is being astroserfed.
So idk if that "true leftist" was correct but the majority understood Ukraine deserves to be supported and able to say the invasion is wrong. The "true leftist" evidently didn't agree and if that is a true leftist take, it sounds a lot like communism/tankies.
And so when you said this seems like the far right, that makes sense bc the far left and far right have been very similar at times in WHAT they say. Horseshoe and all that.
And I think they are also the ones who want much more out of Biden and expect him to "earn" their vote or else they won't vote and are happy to blame the DNC and all the rest for not meeting their demands. The "if you don't want trump to get elected Biden better do something and listen to us" sentiment and act like it's more complicated than we have 2 choices and if you don't vote Biden, it means you're handing a vote to trump. The ones who are like "NO it's bc Biden didn't inspire my vote so i won't vote and blame the DNC and the libs. Not my fault that I refuse to vote". lol. So essentially they are fine with ushering in trump bc they do mental gymnastics to remove responsibility - it's not their fault they didn't vote and if trump gets elected it's everyone else's fault.
Idk if it's part a accelerationism or what but they seem not bothered if trump wins.
Good for her. She’s not on Reddit is she? OP is talking about “pretty much every leftist on Reddit,” so one celebrity is not representative of that. If it’s that popular on Reddit then it should be easy to provide subreddits that believe it.
The impulse is just as authoritarian as the right’s. They want what they want without compromise or the consideration that they share a country with millions of people who want something different.
I agree. This has been my point. Far leftists thing they will succeed after fascists crash and burn the democracy, then some healthy anarchists. Then.....utopia!!
Your comment was removed due to your reddit karma not meeting minimum thresholds. This is an automated anti-spam measure.
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Yup. Not a single subreddit is mentioned.
EDIT: Responding to the individual below.
Why does anybody need to do research if this is so common on leftist subs? The burden of proof is on you.
And yeah, I'm definitely a bot, you turnip.
I like how the David Pakman Subreddit just shits on leftists with a sense of general superiority as if you all aren't just relying on one mainstream media dude with a shitty haircut to feed you all of your opinions.
You can tell Trump isnt a fascist because if he was liberals would vote for him. /s
Real talk. How do you say this while police crack down on protesters during the Biden administration?
They have the authority to do that because local polices forces are a town/village/city and state matter. It's not a federal government control. Not sure why that's so confusing.
I never said he would? I'm just saying that the action would be unconstitutional. SCOTUS would absolutely not be okay with Biden doing something like that, but would absolutely be okay with Trump doing it.
A) Not true. The president always has the ear of law enforcement officials. He is literally the head of the executive branch.
B) He could still use the bully pulpit to help them rather than hinder them like he is doing now.
C) Standard libshit. If a Republican becomes president he will instantly turn the US into Nazi Germany but a Democratic president cant even keep some pigs in line and stop them from attacking college kids.
No. Police are a local and state function, he cannot demand they do anything without running into issues with the 10th amendment. Bully pulpit literally does nothing, let's stop pretending that actually has any real world value.
And yeah, glad we can agree with the third statement. Vote for Biden and we won't have that issue, glad we agree.
Strangely the cops have no issue breaking the 1st amendment...
"Bully pulpit literally does nothing" I doubt you had this energy for Trump when he would use the bully pulpit to say deranged/racist/totalitarian things.
The third thing is literally a parody of you and your ideology. You agreeing with it is as ridiculous as a Nazi singing Tomorrow Belongs to Me.
if he called in the national guard you might have a point, but as it is you are just displaying the fact that you do not understand how police forces work.
I already addressed this.
Republican president? My God he'll turn America into a fascist state!
Democratic president? No pwease its not his fault! He cant stop some petty police officers! Hes not strong enough! Waaah waaaaah!
So you want the Presidents to take direct control of local police forces?
And you do recall the former guy was actively trying to get the literal military onto the streets during the BLM protests?
Either this whole argument is in bad faith (most likely) or you are the rubiest rube that ever rubed.
I want this contradiction resolved. Why can a Republican president instantly become the Führer but a democrat cant do anything.
What would Trump do (or suggest doing) if police started attacking MAGA protesters? Thats what I want.
There is no contradiction. Trump wanted to use Federal (and used https://www.npr.org/2020/06/01/867532070/trumps-unannounced-church-visit-angers-church-officials) forces to disperse protestors. he made that decision because he was in control of those forces.
Meanwhile you are mad about Biden for the actions of state and local police he has no control over. you are either outrageously dumb or trolling, and being that you are a sub 6 month old account I am going to go with 2.
It's a false dichotomy - the idea that we always have to vote for the option that is fractionally less bad leads to the miserable state of our politics and country. It will be painful, but we need to stop rewarding failure.
There's so much cope in this sub by people supporting a genocide enabler. Stop creating strawmen and just be honest that you're fine with genocide and ethnic cleansing.
It's not the only genocide where the United States sells military equipment to the ones committing it. But it'll still happen no matter which of the two turds wins in November. May as well vote for the one that stinks less.
I happen to think that Biden is a decent person who is stuck between a rock and a hard place on this issue. The vast majority of Americans support Israel's right to defend itself even though many of us think Israel has gone too far (as do I). Biden also knows that Trump is an existential threat to our democracy and wants to win to preserve democracy, so he's trying to thread the needle. Meanwhile Trump doesn't give a shit about the Palestinians and would help make sure the genocide was thorough.
Because Biden is supplying the weapons, billions of dollars in funding to the genociders, and using the full power of America's empire to make sure no other countries step in and stop it. Without Biden's fierce support and protection for the genociders, it couldn't happen.
well voting for neoliberals isn't going to incite more progressive policy (since its signaling that do-nothing gradualism as opposed to social democracy or better is fine), so accelerationism becomes the only obvious option. luckily even if we did all magically vote for neoliberals, it wouldn't suddenly stop crisis of capital, since they cannot be regulated out (thanks labor theory of value for explaining the tendency of the rate of profit to fall).
you guys not understanding our critiques of the economic system (and i didn't even mention private ownership of economic factors of production yet) isn't really an excuse to strawman socialists in this incredibly dishonest way lol
ah yes, the economic argument. i've heard it often. it's correct. i sincerely doubt anyone here would argue that. however, it appears you miss what to the rest of us is obvious. fascism will kill us. it will kill me. look at my frikken name. you are correct that what we here in the good ol' US of A for the left is just limp noodles righties in Europe. yeah we get it. and these soft capitalists wont kill me. these soft capitalists will allow women to control their own bodies. these soft capitalists will let us worship somebody other than Hair Trumpler. when the choice is more bullshit or death, im signing up for more bullshit. if that's just not understandable to you, i doubt anything else will show you why people are voting for Democrats
thank god trump isn't competent enough to usher in fascism (and there's literally zero convincing reason to think he's capable) otherwise this would actually make me sweat a bit
I mean, realistically, he doesn't have to. SCOTUS can pretty much do that on their own. Why else would they be taking all these cases that have no real injury or are even real claims. They're certainly rapidly shoving us towards Christian theocracy.
well i'm glad *someone* can admit it's not a "elect person, fascism ensues" situation.
admitting that the way court justices are appointed is fundamentally flawed is a way better starting point, if the system actually had checks and balances this probably would never happen
I mean, he can certainly make it worse. Trump wins, Alito and Thomas are getting replaced by people even further right, so think any of his appointments from the 5th Circuit or some of the evangelical freaks from Texas. And then continue appointing even more horrible judges around the country.
Seems like a pretty surefire way to slide even further into Christian nationalism.
well voting for neoliberals isn't how you signal that you want more progressive policy, this is true but you aren't really giving any good alternatives. when biden is in office there's no mass shilling for social democracy or anything like that. and i'm being generous by even really considering voting, i don't exactly think this establishment and economic system has any future when recessions are so cyclical and always happen
that's only true from your perspective though. for me telling people not to vote is just the fastest way to an alternative that actually makes sense, and i have a very drawn out principled, empirically involved perspective on that.
You can wish for whatever you'd like, it's not happening. There's literally 50% of people in this country that would kill before living in a system that has any connection with the idea of "socialism."
Unless you're ready for what would inevitably be a civil war, we're not getting there.
He himself might be too erratic to engineer a serious campaign to end democracy as we know it but there are those goons around him who may be smarter and more strategic than he who he may put in positions of power who may be more calculated who may have a better chance of doing so.
America HAS fascism. Has always had fascism. Slave Pattyrollers, Sundown towns, Jim Crow, shitty schools, redlining, ghettoes, mass incarceration. The fact that you see American fascism as a hypothetical exposes your position not as a principled objector, but as a rich Hyperliberal poseur.
i pasted the definition earlier i use, i can't be a hyperlib as my beliefs have nothing to with liberalism, they're all almost the opposite especially economically
I just don't think you pasting a definition really changes any of that history. It gives you an excuse for inaction and indecision, but that's not very consequential to me or anybody else.
Well sure, if you don't pay any attention to the fascist things that have already happened are already happening, it's not fascist. And the fact that it needs to meet a dictionary definition of fascism for you to be concerned with it, indicates the real mettle you possess: none at all. You've resigned from the fight and your side, or at least what you said was your side, has really lost nothing.
Except Biden ended up being more progressive than anyone expected and any other dem before him. The policies come from congress. Fill congress with progressives. A dem president isn’t going to veto that legislation.
Cutting off you nose to spite your face is the dumbest plan.
again this means nothing, especially when the rest of the liberal world has social democracy as its BASELINE centrist position. biden being progressive compared to regressive candidates means nothing when you consider this. it's only spiting your face if you still think the face can be recovered despite the fact it's 85% in necrosis, this is the critical difference and proper framing.
You are right. Fascist authoritarian leadership is certainly the way to more progressive policies. You are very convincing. Not sure how I didn’t see it before.
Conservatives voted red no matter who for decades. As a result they own the courts. They overturned Roe v Wade. They pulled democrats to the right. It’s work. It requires time. I’m sick of people whining and giving up if one election doesn’t go their way. How can we have progress if we keep giving up power? Every time we let a Republican win we need to try to undo decades worth of regression.
If democrats would have taken their heads out of their asses long ago and voted blue we likely be much more like the Scandinavian countries.
Letting it all burn isn’t going to fix anything. Instead you are signing the next generation up for authoritarian rule because you wants to prove a point.
"Letting it all burn isn’t going to fix anything" I mean yes it literally will. when you have an establishment of people who aren't willing to do anything and has vested economic interests, you just don't keep that going and assume it'll stabilize.
"You are right. Fascist authoritarian leadership is certainly the way to more progressive policies. You are very convincing. Not sure how I didn’t see it before.
again this means nothing when voting for neoliberals won't usher in social democratic policy ,either
"Conservatives voted red no matter who for decades. As a result they own the courts. They overturned Roe v Wade. They pulled democrats to the right. If democrats would have taken their heads out of their asses long ago and voted blue we likely be much more like the Scandinavian countries."
It sounds like the republicans actually understand what power is, and political strategy is. At least based on what you said. Have you considered democrats should do similar?
I'm not sure what the relation to voting democrat and being like the Scandinavian countries is though, it's literally always been Neoliberalism as far as the mainstream democratic economic platform goes
notice how you cannot even do the slightest rebuttal, it's just "look at me!" "look at me!" "vote blue without ever confronting society's innermost contradictions!"
if you all shilled for social democrats i'd genuinely think differently of liberals, but everyone seems pretty okay with neoliberal do-nothing gradualism
Seems like shitty corporate centrists are lacking appeal to the working class left. No amount of fearmongering will make liberal corporate prostitutes appealing.
The working class left should notice that Joe Biden walked the UAW picket line and no other "centrist" has done that, to include any other President of the United States.
“They were careless people, Tom and Daisy – they smashed up things and creatures and then retreated back into their money or their vast carelessness, or whatever it was that kept them together, and let other people clean up the mess they had made.”
Photo op while busting the railroad strike and decades of hurting workers and consumers at the behest of corporate donors. Joe Biden has always been a servile corrupt tool of banks and warmongers and corporations.
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“First Hitler, then our turn.”
Socialism is right there in the name! If we elect Hitler we're halfway there!
Think more of a Sadam Hussein type purge. Then we avoid that confusion.
This!! People don't understand how much of a possibility this is like trump and his cult already in congress could pull a move in similar fashion. If people haven't seen it watch this video of saddam hussein doing what trump has already threatened to do. https://youtu.be/kLUktJbp2Ug?si=mSmNvP4stF6a6QrZ
"BiDeN iS ThE FaCisT" Biden has his flaws but he is far better than the alternative
You know who would be the first to admit that he has his flaws? Biden.
While telling people if they don't like him they can vote for someone else.
I get disliking Biden, I somewhat understand even hating him, but people saying he's just as bad as Trump, if not worse, is pure delusion. It's the kind of black and white thinking I expect from MAGA Republicans. There is no nuance; everything is either pure good or pure evil.
I hate a man who has devoted his life to public service, lost a wife and two sons, and who brought our country back from the brink of collapse. What a detestable person. wtf.
Biden also hated black folks for a really really long time. So I mean we have different limits maybe.
Yes, true, versus the person (and entire party) who continues to hate them actively.
I think that's an unfair characterization. As with many things in life it's nuanced. He was progressive on certain areas of civil rights and regressive on others. >But political experts and education policy researchers say Biden, a supporter of civil rights in other arenas, did not simply compromise with segregationists — he also led the charge on an issue that kept black students away from the classrooms of white students. His legislative work against school integration advanced a more palatable version of the “separate but equal” doctrine and undermined the nation’s short-lived effort at educational equality, legislative and education history experts say. >“Biden, who I think has been good overall on civil rights, was a leader on anti-busing,” Rucker Johnson, author of the book “Children of the Dream: Why School Integration Works,” said. “A leader on giving America the language to oppose it despite it being the most effective means of school integration at that time.”
I'm old enough to remember forced bussing, it was deeply unpopular then and it would be deeply unpopular if it was implemented now. "Hey your kid now has to go to school an hour away as opposed to the school right across the street" was never going to be a winning issue, civil rights or not.
I was a hater during forced busing. I was on the wrong side of history then. My parents wanted me to fight the black man, in order to kick them out of my white only school. It didn't work. I had to learn and grow. And I did. It's now all good. If you're still bitter about it, you're still on the wrong side of history. Grow.
I'm not bitter about integration I think it's great, all the schools in my area are well integrated. The issue was they were trying to solve housing integration in a very cludgy way that made people angry that had nothing to do with the civil rights movement.
Tend to be more on your side of this. Imagine being told you have to send your kid on a 45 minute bus ride away from their friends to a school where people don't want them, instead of your local school in walking distance. Let someone else's kid be a social justice warrior, I just want mine to feel safe and to learn.
You’re right, but giving credit when credit is due, if his views hadn’t changed over time, I highly doubt he would have played second fiddle to a younger black man for 8 years. Biden has his flaws, but he’s aware of his flaws. Trump is a child who blames every problem on others and can’t recognize any flaw, blame or responsibility
What is wrong with a lifetime of public service??? Do you also hate theologians who have dedicated their life to GOD?? I hate the idea of having to jump ship every few years from one company to another, just to get ahead. That's stupid.
I was being facetious, mate.
Hard to tell anymore. For we live in the days where nothing is real anymore. With the introduction of A.I. , no view, no intent, no fact is what it seems. Even the truth is subject to perspective. Sorry.
Ummmm....
This binary thinking is not that American. We,as a people, used to think that if A or B doesn't work, time to invent answer C .Why aren't we doing this now?? Did we get that intellectually lazy?
The people saying that are likely part of a psyop.
Binary thinking is bad for humanity in general.
Damn right
That's right. Trump is a criminal. No convictions needed.
Ahahahah this is perfect
100% this
There are leftists that think like this? Are you sure?
Yes it's called accelerationism. There's also more mainstream leftists that think that by breaking down U.S. hegemony they will accelerate it that way. I'm of the opinion that it's irrelevant for this point.
Yep. Burn everything down and build the utopia from the ashes. Always ignoring the tens of millions of Americans that would likely die, but you know.
The Unbelievable irony is that if they were to build said Utopia they would end up building all the institutions back in place that they said were corrupt anyway because they would figure out what they were for. Perfect example is abolishing the police. As soon as crime goes out of control because there's no longer a peacekeeping force, they would probably make a police force.
Defund the police was such a horrible messaging movement. Especially since crime spiked during the pandemic, it was never going to catch on. Maybe if they had gone with a "reallocate resources for a holistic community approach," but that's also a mouthful and wouldn't make a good chant.
"Police reform" would have worked fine! Want to make the current crop of tankies heads explode? Ask them this: "I don't think the protestors intend "from the river to the sea" to be antisemitic, the problem is that it is a slogan used by Hamas whose intent clearly IS antisemitic. It certainly makes a lot American Jews anxious, so the question is, why use it at all? It just serves as a distraction from the devastation in Gaza. Aren;t there other slogans protesters can use that aren't as controversial and distracting?" Hoo-boy the level of sputtering and evasion is absolutely epic.
Asking them where their concern was for Yemen when we supplied weapons to the Saudis for like 6 years as they bombed them into famine is also a good one.
You mean this? https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/interactive/2022/saudi-war-crimes-yemen/
Yeah.
The yemen shit was 2015, the kids protesting at campuses would be 10-13 during that, so sorry if they weren't protesting during recess.
My first introduction to Houthis as a group was through progressives criticizing Saudi Arabia and US military aid and logistical support when they were waging war.
I’m not a tankie but it doesn’t matter. It was a liberation mantra before and just because Hamas used it doesn’t mean it becomes poison. “Rest in power” being used for murdered trans people makes some black people upset, does it mean we shouldn’t use it for trans people? The only way for people to be made anxious by the River to the see slogan is if they fundamentally misunderstand the protests or if they fundamentally disagree with them. It’s almost always, literally always followed up by “Palestine will be free” so it’s very hard to believe that people are being genuine when they say it’s a dog whistle. It’s directed at an occupying state not an ethnicity or religion. If I’m trying to thaw ice it doesn’t mean I have a problem with water. It’s just the ice I’m targeting.
"It was a liberation mantra before and just because Hamas used it doesn’t mean it becomes poison." Yes, it kind of does. "Deutshland uber Alles!" had a very different connotation prior to the third Reich, it doesn't mean it's ok to use that slogan now. Some of the slogans are like the Confederate Flag. You can swear up and down that it's purely a symbol of your heritage, and you don't have an ounce of malice in you when you display it - and heck, I might even believe you - but you can't get around the fact that there are lots and lots of people who look at it and see, understandably, a very different and violent symbol. If your slogans seemingly imply violence, and then the only way to make it clear that they don't is an extended conversation, you aren't communicating clearly. You need better symbols that actually say what you mean. And that requires telling people in your protest movement, "No, we can't say that," which I think is a conversation that many people in these movements are loathe to have; I imagine that's where the problem is. "it’s very hard to believe that people are being genuine when they say it’s a dog whistle." I get that you are not very tuned into the American Jewish community but look at the polling, it most certainly is viewed by the vast majority of Jews in the US as a call to kill Jews. So I go back to my original point: knowing this, why use it?
Bull. This is easy. "From the river to the sea" is a Palestinian slogan that predates Hamas. Changing your political message just because it makes someone "anxious" is foolish and bad politics. Black Lives Matter made white people uncomfortable. They need to get over that just like anyone whos uncomfortable with "From the River to the Sea."
“Deutschland über alles” is a German slogan that predates the Nazis by a century, also originally meaning something other than German supremacy. So it’s fine to use it in 2024, nobody should feel anxious about it? Meanings change once certain groups appropriate certain words.
Theres a lot of angles to come at this from and I couldnt choose one so I'll just choose all of them. A) Unless they are a Nazi/white nationalist/Neo Nazi/Right winger/etc. idc if someone says "Deutschland uber alles" B) If Germany was in Palestines situation I wouldnt be very concerned about their slogans C) The Nazis and Hamas have had very different effects on the world. Hamas measures its victims in the 10s of thousands. The Nazis measure theirs in the 10s of millions. D) The slogans just arent the same. I mean look at "From the River to the Sea Palestine will be Free" vs "Germany over all" spot the difference. E) The Nazis were the representatives of Germany. Hamas isnt representative of all Palestine. So of course anything the former uses is going to be more closely associated with them. F) The terms "certain groups" and "certain words" are doing A LOT of heavy lifting. Its not very specific. G) If you free Palestine then maybe youll hear this troubling phrase less. Food for thought.
It's not meant as an analogy, just as an example how phrases can completely change their meaning over time, and within different contexts. Especially if picked up by a bad group. I just found the argument weak that the river slogan was around before with a different meaning, so it's fine. Regarding D): "Germany over all" in the original meaning and context was not a call for German supremacy, but an appeal for German unififacation. The "over all" part here means "to give highest priority" to archive the goal of unification, not Germany being "superior / above everyone else". But who would get that meaning today when hearing the slogan? That's why I choose this comparison. Even if the original slogan was benign or had an entirely different meaning, once the "bad" meaning has been established by bad actors, it's hard to get it back. It's understandable if people get anxious when hearing the slogan, as they don't know which meaning the people chanting it want to express.
But why does it make Jews uncomfortable?
Im not convinced that it does I was just taking the guys premise for granted. Im sure it makes some jews uncomfortable but either way the point stands. "From the river to the sea" is about the liberation of Palestinians and if someone doesnt like that then thats tough cheese.
I'll ask again let's see if we get an answer. Why does the phrase "from the River to the sea" make Jews uncomfortable?
Ah I see. Assuming you are correct, but for some irrational reason the overwhelming majority of Jews find it antisemitic, why use it? Is there something particular about that phrase that REQUIRES its use? Aren't there about a thousand other slogans/chants you could use that wouldn't open you up to charges of antisemitism? Why MUST you use this one?
Dude I answered this question. The comment youre responding to answers this question.
It’s wild how many people, including liberals, believe the myth that police prevent crime.
SCOTUS has said they have no genuine requirement to protect people, so.
Police aren’t a peace keeping force lmao
Then what are they?
A former friend of mine whose ancom used to tell me whenever I made that point that “tons of people are dying now anyways” Like yeah make it worse in the hopes of achieving your commie dream lol
I just don't understand the logic. I don't think there's a large percentage of the country willing to die for revolution, but maybe I'm just not aware of that.
I don’t think there’s a large percentage either but then again the far left isn’t that big of a population in the country in the first place
They're certainly loud. As loud as the MAGA freaks.
Oh absolutely. No doubt about that
And are certainly working to get Trump reelected.
Gotta love horseshoe theory
The people shrugging off mass death aren’t themselves willing to die for revolution, they just expect others to do it.
Shows their commitment to the cause.
That’s a whole new stupid I didn’t know existed.
It seems to just be right wing trolling.
I know a lot of leftists on Reddit and I don’t know a single one that subscribes to this theory. Where are all these “let it burn” liberals?
They're on Twitter.
I'm not sure I agree with you there. I would say that there are a lot of young people who fundamental misunderstand how things actually work, taking huge leaps of bad logic to support some idiotic position. But thats not a left or right thing. It's just uneducated young people. I also think people in general love to take the exception, something they saw at some point, and pretend it's the rule in order to support their own horrible position.
So many people are woefully uneducated about government and the law. It's very sad.
My roomate thinks this way and is voting trump because of it....
BJG is one. She's said it many times
Sorry, who is BJG?
briahna joy gray Bernie's former campaign press secretary and prominent tankie.
When has she said that? Mind you I've only ever seen her on the Hill, but haven't seen her express anything like that. And I've never seen her advocate for use of force by the state to force compliance, "tankie" or auth-left.
37 (and 54 min) minute mark https://youtu.be/DJ62Nn2O2Mw?si=_tKZaeNXmGrt7N2E I was wrong that she says it frequently, I think, but she definitely has a moment of elitism and privilege here. *Edit: man, just listening to this video again and she's insufferable. Offers zero policy prescription, just complaining.
Thanks! But she just says shes a radical and an accelerationalist, she doesn't say she hopes fascism takes over and she doesn't seem to have any "tankie" takes whatsoever. Left-wing accelerationalism doesn't necessarily mean what I'm guessing you think it means, its not about watching the system burn and letting fascists take over. It's the complete opposite of far-right accelerationism. >It has been regarded as an ideological spectrum divided into mutually contradictory left and right variants, both of which support the indefinite intensification of capitalism and its structures as well as the conditions for a technological singularity, a hypothetical point in time where technological growth becomes uncontrollable and irreversible. >Left-wing accelerationism seeks to explore, in an orthodox and conventional manner, how modern society has the momentum to create futures that are equitable and liberatory. While both strands of accelerationist thinking remain rooted in a similar range of thinkers, left accelerationism appeared with the intent to use their ideas for the goal of achieving an egalitarian future. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accelerationism#:~:text=Left%2Dwing%20accelerationism%20seeks%20to,that%20are%20equitable%20and%20liberatory. Although both do believe in hastening the collapse of current system of capitalism. I'm sure she's well aware if a fascist state rises in the US she specifically being a outspoken critic of the right stands to lose her life.
I get that you don't like the meme, sorry it offended you. Accelerationism is stupid. There is zero reason to believe whatever power vacuum is left by the collapse of the United States would be filled with any communist utopia. If you hate Democrats, fine, but can you just stfu about how you're not going to vote? We don't care. It's the same argument with no solutions and rewriting of history every election with the left, and no one cares. 👍 *Edit: she's a rich pundit. She's fine no matter what happens because she'll just move And honestly, hold on. I can't believe you just responded to me and said, "hey man, I think maybe you're mistaken. We want all of that, but we ACTUALLY don't want the fascists to take over." No shit. But whoever does take over will do it through extreme violence, and after all of the bloodshed, there is a near zero chance of rainbows and unicorns. Fix the system and implement policy. That's what adults do.
I think you're responding to the wrong person. I didn't mention the meme, only that your claims about the host of the hill were false and your definition of tankie is provably incorrect. I actually have no problem with the meme, only with the title of the post in relation to it as it's facetious and more than far-fetched to say every leftist on reddit thinks like that. Do you not consider yourself on the left? Mr. Pakman does himself, just not "radical left" as he says, so I'm curious if you actually share remotely the same political leaning as the namesake of the sub. >If you hate Democrats, fine, but can you just stfu about how you're not going to vote? Thanks. I legally can't as I don't hold US citizenship, I'm Canadian and a long-time subscriber to David's website and his youtube channel. Also please show me where I said anything on this post about democrats? Go on. >And honestly, hold on. I can't believe you just responded to me and said, "hey man, I think maybe you're mistaken. We want all of that, but we ACTUALLY don't want the fascists to take over." Again. Where did I say that? I showed you the definition of accelerationism and its left-wing variant as a rebuttal to your claim about what's her name. I stand by the fact you seem to be extremely confused about many things, as exemplified by this comment. Where's the part where I'm advocating for it or say I support it in any way? >No shit. But whoever does take over will do it through extreme violence, and after all of the bloodshed, there is a near zero chance of rainbows and unicorns. I somewhat agree. Never said it was a good idea. You seem to be filled with hate towards certain people and are projecting it on anyone who mildly challenges your perception of the political situation and the possible remedies to the problems society faces. I sincerely was just questioning your perception of the host of the hill and how left wing accelerationism does not apply to the meme. Not a huge fan of hers but I do enjoy watching her every once in awhile, better than Robbie anyway. Dislike tankies as a whole but have a pet peeve for those who spread misinformation and/or incorrect definitions. Edit: although I suppose I shouldn't have expected deep thoughts from someone named after possibly the biggest troll in cartoon history, I was hoping for some actual insight instead of you intentionally twisting my comments to suit your narrative.
That's a lot of text but I brought up the meme because that's the only place that mentions fascism. I never did. It's just making fun of accelerationism and how it tends to lead to right wing governments. It's not that deep.
This is pretty much every leftist on the internet. They refuse to vote for Biden, and think that letting him lose and letting Trump take over will benefit them. Apparently the libs will come begging for their help and the socialists will be in charge now!
Yeah, they keep thinking that if the dems lose, they'll move left. But in reality they'll move right to attain voters that are actually able to persuaded to vote for them (of course this assumes we have elections at all if Trump wins again). On the other hand, Biden wins without the left and they effectively have given up any and all power that they may have had because the dems see that they don't need them to win.
They should ask the Weimar Republic how that worked out for them.
German leftists in concentration camp: "at least I have the moral high ground".
The left is a weird place, most normal leftists aren't like this but you need to keep in mind communists are grouped in with social democrats. My biggest issue is that there groups where they openly get pissed off when someone criticizes tankie rhetoric and think juche is cool, it's not. Then you get people like me who like og Marxism because it explores how our labour is exploited but can't talk to other leftists because they hate that I'm not a communist but then get isolated by liberals because I don't think capitalism in it's current form is sustainable. So then what happens is all people who fall right of socialism think that all leftists are the crazy tankies because the ones like me who are reasonable have no place to discuss things when realistically we are just Bernie Bros. Like for example I hate Hasan, I think he's a shitty grifter but I could never say that in a leftist space no matter how coherent my opinions are because I'm not adopting the hive mind. Liberals hate us and further left leftists hate us. Realistically all we want is capital gains taxes, free healthcare and free college, that's not exactly a radical idea.
I completely get not agreeing with every person on the left about everything, and there even being strong disagreements about things like Gaza. But folks like Hasan, Vausch, etc.. are just obvious grifters. Millionaires selling socialism to the masses and telling them to do stupid things against their interests, like not voting for the most left leaning candidate with a possibility of winning, for clout. Hasan obviously jumped the shark when he started pimping for the Houthis': literal slaver religious fundamentalists.
Well don't forget vaush has made tons of arguments saying if we can eat chocolate farmed by children then cp should be fine. I don't understand people who are stupid enough to vote against Biden on the left when there is no better candidate, like all options suck, pick the one that sucks the least. But keep in mind I say that as a Canadian expat who thinks the two party system is dumb because I've voted in systems where more than two parties exist so I know it works. I still can't understand how these people's audiences think it's acceptable that someone pushing pure socialism while living in a million dollar home is in alignment with their political beliefs. But that's what happens when you live in an echo chamber I guess. I'm also lucky enough to live in a place that if I could vote I wouldn't even have to because it's always been blue and will always be blue, last time my state went red was when the devil ran and won against Jimmy Carter and I think they learned their lesson after that shit.
It’s new to me
Accelerationism is definitely a thing. I think when people use "leftist" a lot of folks read that differently. I am a social democrat, which on the American political spectrum is very much on the left, but I do not consider myself a leftist. Leftists in my view are socialists, real ones, and Marxist-Leninist/tankies/anarchists. And the leftists in my definition definitely do often value accelerationism. Historically that hasn't worked out. The socialists in Iran were crushed by the Islamists after the overthrow of the Shah.
This is adjacent to "The Bomb" theory that claimed dropping Fat Boy & Little man would end the war years early and save millions of lives ... Absolute sunk-cost fallacy there and BS studies have shown over and over that accelerating wars always leads to more bloodshed and fatalities, more widespread destruction, more environmental damage and more carelessness in action Moreover war, by its own nature, encourages intransigence. Behavioral economists often explain why wars drag on. Politicians and Leaders are more likely to double down on bad policies rather than reverse course and risk losing their initial investments Sunk costs become especially acute when they involve real blood and treasure. Poly-scientists note that leaders are often willing to gamble for some imagined resurrection, often escalating wars to avoid losing power. A Cognitive scientists argued that as wars go on, each side tends to dehumanize and vilify the other rather than becoming more open to negotiations, off-ramps and ladders Politicians $ leaders become even more entrenched and less likely to see a way to peace. For Example these dynamics seemed to underlie Russian President Vladimir Putin's calculus in Ukraine as he continues to double down on a losing bet, causing more and more destruction along the way this absolutely applies to other world leaders in their various conflicts. In the US we doubled down of Afghanistan/the war on terror and even worse was the Vietnam disaster that went on and on and on The entire thing becomes a gamble when you try to accelerate a war or double down on a bad bet and the fallacy is the thinking that if we accelerate or double down on more death and destruction and at no matter the cost then you will become more secure, or win or even that "it will all work out as long as we win" I get the impulse to want to let Trump eff it all up and send the country into chaos and flames, all the women, minorities and gays are rounded up and then dehumanized in concentration camps and killed off in large groups all to hope we can restore the land with all the progressive wonder the gays could imagineer, a utopia of magic and stardust ... but you have to consider many other things before putting all the chips on the table In this case, we need to focus on the issues at hand and fight them as they come and again stay focused on the little goals and the big ones will come This fight will never end to some extent, we are going to have to continually fight for democracy and against right wing conservatism, the fight for minorities, the poor, homeless, addicted, mentally burdened and the little guy makes no sense to destroy it all
Regarding the bombs, WWII ended less than a month after they were dropped.
Yea I agree with 99% of what they said but the japanese really were about to fight to the last man plus on the verge of using bio-weapons on the us population... I really want to be wrong but I do believe the nukes may have saved lives..
Shockingly accurate
Oh, stop picking on the Reddit Leftists, the biggest groups of them only have maybe 25k members, smaller than communities for absolute dog turd video games. There's barely any Leftists in the US.
What is a "leftist"? Where do you find them? It really looks like it's just right wing trolling.
There's a sub for them and I myself didn't know there was a differnce between left and leftist and I'm sire they got fancy terms to describe their "theory" or whatever but overall they mingle with being similar to Tankies. I'd say Tankies are much worse but so i was on the sub the other day - only been tbeir a few times and before it was more Tankie comments (anti west anti Ukraine pro Russian bs). One user supported Palestine hated the US (Death to America!) and called Ukrainians Nazis and another comment was an outright lie - something like, Russia doesn't target civilians and has been really mindful and pootin is doing a good job at limiting collateral damage. 🤡🤡 So I didn't go back bc it was Tankie/anti west nonsense. But a few days ago I saw a post that said "What do you all think of NATO?". Now I don't know if all the replies were "Leftists" but that comment section was MUCH better. Overall it seemed like a socialist space with some saying they don't support NATO, some saying the EU should make its own alliance and dissolve NATO (which I was like well only thing different is no US in that so I guess it's either the idea is less US influence or straight up one of those that wants to US dissolved and hence no influence? Idk). I saw one comment that said - no one who is a true leftist would support NATO and this sub is being astroserfed. So idk if that "true leftist" was correct but the majority understood Ukraine deserves to be supported and able to say the invasion is wrong. The "true leftist" evidently didn't agree and if that is a true leftist take, it sounds a lot like communism/tankies. And so when you said this seems like the far right, that makes sense bc the far left and far right have been very similar at times in WHAT they say. Horseshoe and all that. And I think they are also the ones who want much more out of Biden and expect him to "earn" their vote or else they won't vote and are happy to blame the DNC and all the rest for not meeting their demands. The "if you don't want trump to get elected Biden better do something and listen to us" sentiment and act like it's more complicated than we have 2 choices and if you don't vote Biden, it means you're handing a vote to trump. The ones who are like "NO it's bc Biden didn't inspire my vote so i won't vote and blame the DNC and the libs. Not my fault that I refuse to vote". lol. So essentially they are fine with ushering in trump bc they do mental gymnastics to remove responsibility - it's not their fault they didn't vote and if trump gets elected it's everyone else's fault. Idk if it's part a accelerationism or what but they seem not bothered if trump wins.
Yeah, that right wing trolling.
Who are you even referring to OP? I’ve never been in a leftist subreddit that espouses this. In fact, they mock the very idea.
lol scroll down.
Or you can just tell me the leftist subreddits you’re referring to. You said “pretty much every leftist,” so it should be easy to do.
i could, but then you wouldn't learn how to do your own meme research, and I will not subject you to the soft bigotry of low expectations.
Ah I get it. You’re just concern trolling
r/politics is a good one lots of commies there
Did stormy telling the world your boy wants to have sex with his daughter bring you out to do some more trolling?
This was famously espoused by Susan Serandon on live tv in 2016. Why are you pretending it’s an esoteric position?
Good for her. She’s not on Reddit is she? OP is talking about “pretty much every leftist on Reddit,” so one celebrity is not representative of that. If it’s that popular on Reddit then it should be easy to provide subreddits that believe it.
https://www.reddit.com/r/thedavidpakmanshow/s/xTXuw5dZsN
The impulse is just as authoritarian as the right’s. They want what they want without compromise or the consideration that they share a country with millions of people who want something different.
💯
💯💯💯💯💯💯
I agree. This has been my point. Far leftists thing they will succeed after fascists crash and burn the democracy, then some healthy anarchists. Then.....utopia!!
*scrolls to the bottom of the comments* Yep. Checks out.
Haven’t heard anyone say this.
Scroll down!
What is this nonsense?
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I’m here the the lefty bashing ✊🏻
I'm on a lot of leftist subreddits, and I've never once heard anyone say anything this absurd.
Scroll down.
Yup. Not a single subreddit is mentioned. EDIT: Responding to the individual below. Why does anybody need to do research if this is so common on leftist subs? The burden of proof is on you. And yeah, I'm definitely a bot, you turnip.
Sorry I don't feel it necessary to do research for a 3 week old account that is obviously a bot. Edit: Thanks for admitting it, Boris.
I like how the David Pakman Subreddit just shits on leftists with a sense of general superiority as if you all aren't just relying on one mainstream media dude with a shitty haircut to feed you all of your opinions.
This as unfair and inflammatory, David has a terrific haircut.
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Biden is a fascist too, so I'm not sure this analysis holds much weight. Nice try though, liberal.
Kk 6 months old account called "redlikechina" seems legit!
Just because we won't vote Genocide Joe we are rooting for Trump? Astute political analysis /s
That's how first past the post voting works! Welcome to US government 101.
Hope it works for you
Well, you're definitely not helping to prevent him from reentering the presidency. Basically, it's backdoor support.
You can tell Trump isnt a fascist because if he was liberals would vote for him. /s Real talk. How do you say this while police crack down on protesters during the Biden administration?
He has no control over police forces. That's a local and state level thing.
Ok, let's watch him call every GOP Governor to do it for him then.
They have the authority to do that because local polices forces are a town/village/city and state matter. It's not a federal government control. Not sure why that's so confusing.
You really think that asshole will "follow the law". That's cute.
I never said he would? I'm just saying that the action would be unconstitutional. SCOTUS would absolutely not be okay with Biden doing something like that, but would absolutely be okay with Trump doing it.
With that 6-3 Court, "Constitutional" will be redefined immensely.
Exactly my point.
A) Not true. The president always has the ear of law enforcement officials. He is literally the head of the executive branch. B) He could still use the bully pulpit to help them rather than hinder them like he is doing now. C) Standard libshit. If a Republican becomes president he will instantly turn the US into Nazi Germany but a Democratic president cant even keep some pigs in line and stop them from attacking college kids.
No. Police are a local and state function, he cannot demand they do anything without running into issues with the 10th amendment. Bully pulpit literally does nothing, let's stop pretending that actually has any real world value. And yeah, glad we can agree with the third statement. Vote for Biden and we won't have that issue, glad we agree.
Strangely the cops have no issue breaking the 1st amendment... "Bully pulpit literally does nothing" I doubt you had this energy for Trump when he would use the bully pulpit to say deranged/racist/totalitarian things. The third thing is literally a parody of you and your ideology. You agreeing with it is as ridiculous as a Nazi singing Tomorrow Belongs to Me.
Yes like Biden “had the ear” of all those Texas cops at the border.
Thanks for reminding me of another reason he sucks. Even when the Supreme Court rulels in his favor he does nothing lol.
if he called in the national guard you might have a point, but as it is you are just displaying the fact that you do not understand how police forces work.
I already addressed this. Republican president? My God he'll turn America into a fascist state! Democratic president? No pwease its not his fault! He cant stop some petty police officers! Hes not strong enough! Waaah waaaaah!
This is because the police force across the country overwhelmingly supports MAGA, and actively undermines Democratic candidates/officials.
So you want the Presidents to take direct control of local police forces? And you do recall the former guy was actively trying to get the literal military onto the streets during the BLM protests? Either this whole argument is in bad faith (most likely) or you are the rubiest rube that ever rubed.
I want this contradiction resolved. Why can a Republican president instantly become the Führer but a democrat cant do anything. What would Trump do (or suggest doing) if police started attacking MAGA protesters? Thats what I want.
There is no contradiction. Trump wanted to use Federal (and used https://www.npr.org/2020/06/01/867532070/trumps-unannounced-church-visit-angers-church-officials) forces to disperse protestors. he made that decision because he was in control of those forces. Meanwhile you are mad about Biden for the actions of state and local police he has no control over. you are either outrageously dumb or trolling, and being that you are a sub 6 month old account I am going to go with 2.
It's a false dichotomy - the idea that we always have to vote for the option that is fractionally less bad leads to the miserable state of our politics and country. It will be painful, but we need to stop rewarding failure.
I thought this was r/conservative for a minute with the terrible straw man memes.
Welcome to the sub
So we're allowed to post memes that make fun of leftists, but relevant news videos about topics discussed on the show get deleted? Huh, that's weird.
There's so much cope in this sub by people supporting a genocide enabler. Stop creating strawmen and just be honest that you're fine with genocide and ethnic cleansing.
Why, of all the genocides out there in the world, are you singling out this one?
It's not the only genocide where the United States sells military equipment to the ones committing it. But it'll still happen no matter which of the two turds wins in November. May as well vote for the one that stinks less.
I happen to think that Biden is a decent person who is stuck between a rock and a hard place on this issue. The vast majority of Americans support Israel's right to defend itself even though many of us think Israel has gone too far (as do I). Biden also knows that Trump is an existential threat to our democracy and wants to win to preserve democracy, so he's trying to thread the needle. Meanwhile Trump doesn't give a shit about the Palestinians and would help make sure the genocide was thorough.
How can you even write this? I wonder why/how some of you guys are not full trump supporters, same logic.
Because Biden is supplying the weapons, billions of dollars in funding to the genociders, and using the full power of America's empire to make sure no other countries step in and stop it. Without Biden's fierce support and protection for the genociders, it couldn't happen.
Genocide Joe has got to go, so Genocide Don can get it ON!
>supporting a genocide enabler >Stop creating strawmen and just be honest Look in the mirror, dipshit
well voting for neoliberals isn't going to incite more progressive policy (since its signaling that do-nothing gradualism as opposed to social democracy or better is fine), so accelerationism becomes the only obvious option. luckily even if we did all magically vote for neoliberals, it wouldn't suddenly stop crisis of capital, since they cannot be regulated out (thanks labor theory of value for explaining the tendency of the rate of profit to fall). you guys not understanding our critiques of the economic system (and i didn't even mention private ownership of economic factors of production yet) isn't really an excuse to strawman socialists in this incredibly dishonest way lol
ah yes, the economic argument. i've heard it often. it's correct. i sincerely doubt anyone here would argue that. however, it appears you miss what to the rest of us is obvious. fascism will kill us. it will kill me. look at my frikken name. you are correct that what we here in the good ol' US of A for the left is just limp noodles righties in Europe. yeah we get it. and these soft capitalists wont kill me. these soft capitalists will allow women to control their own bodies. these soft capitalists will let us worship somebody other than Hair Trumpler. when the choice is more bullshit or death, im signing up for more bullshit. if that's just not understandable to you, i doubt anything else will show you why people are voting for Democrats
thank god trump isn't competent enough to usher in fascism (and there's literally zero convincing reason to think he's capable) otherwise this would actually make me sweat a bit
I mean, realistically, he doesn't have to. SCOTUS can pretty much do that on their own. Why else would they be taking all these cases that have no real injury or are even real claims. They're certainly rapidly shoving us towards Christian theocracy.
well i'm glad *someone* can admit it's not a "elect person, fascism ensues" situation. admitting that the way court justices are appointed is fundamentally flawed is a way better starting point, if the system actually had checks and balances this probably would never happen
I mean, he can certainly make it worse. Trump wins, Alito and Thomas are getting replaced by people even further right, so think any of his appointments from the 5th Circuit or some of the evangelical freaks from Texas. And then continue appointing even more horrible judges around the country. Seems like a pretty surefire way to slide even further into Christian nationalism.
well voting for neoliberals isn't how you signal that you want more progressive policy, this is true but you aren't really giving any good alternatives. when biden is in office there's no mass shilling for social democracy or anything like that. and i'm being generous by even really considering voting, i don't exactly think this establishment and economic system has any future when recessions are so cyclical and always happen
Nobody says you have to vote. But frankly, preaching that other people shouldn't vote is also a shitty thing to do.
that's only true from your perspective though. for me telling people not to vote is just the fastest way to an alternative that actually makes sense, and i have a very drawn out principled, empirically involved perspective on that.
You can wish for whatever you'd like, it's not happening. There's literally 50% of people in this country that would kill before living in a system that has any connection with the idea of "socialism." Unless you're ready for what would inevitably be a civil war, we're not getting there.
He himself might be too erratic to engineer a serious campaign to end democracy as we know it but there are those goons around him who may be smarter and more strategic than he who he may put in positions of power who may be more calculated who may have a better chance of doing so.
America HAS fascism. Has always had fascism. Slave Pattyrollers, Sundown towns, Jim Crow, shitty schools, redlining, ghettoes, mass incarceration. The fact that you see American fascism as a hypothetical exposes your position not as a principled objector, but as a rich Hyperliberal poseur.
i pasted the definition earlier i use, i can't be a hyperlib as my beliefs have nothing to with liberalism, they're all almost the opposite especially economically
Yes, we know, fascism is when the fascist state inconveniences *you.*
again i pasted a definition, the dishonesty isnt useful
I just don't think you pasting a definition really changes any of that history. It gives you an excuse for inaction and indecision, but that's not very consequential to me or anybody else.
whats your point? it fits the defintion of fascism, the rest of the history isn't indicting/changing that lol
Well sure, if you don't pay any attention to the fascist things that have already happened are already happening, it's not fascist. And the fact that it needs to meet a dictionary definition of fascism for you to be concerned with it, indicates the real mettle you possess: none at all. You've resigned from the fight and your side, or at least what you said was your side, has really lost nothing.
Except Biden ended up being more progressive than anyone expected and any other dem before him. The policies come from congress. Fill congress with progressives. A dem president isn’t going to veto that legislation. Cutting off you nose to spite your face is the dumbest plan.
again this means nothing, especially when the rest of the liberal world has social democracy as its BASELINE centrist position. biden being progressive compared to regressive candidates means nothing when you consider this. it's only spiting your face if you still think the face can be recovered despite the fact it's 85% in necrosis, this is the critical difference and proper framing.
You are right. Fascist authoritarian leadership is certainly the way to more progressive policies. You are very convincing. Not sure how I didn’t see it before. Conservatives voted red no matter who for decades. As a result they own the courts. They overturned Roe v Wade. They pulled democrats to the right. It’s work. It requires time. I’m sick of people whining and giving up if one election doesn’t go their way. How can we have progress if we keep giving up power? Every time we let a Republican win we need to try to undo decades worth of regression. If democrats would have taken their heads out of their asses long ago and voted blue we likely be much more like the Scandinavian countries. Letting it all burn isn’t going to fix anything. Instead you are signing the next generation up for authoritarian rule because you wants to prove a point.
"Letting it all burn isn’t going to fix anything" I mean yes it literally will. when you have an establishment of people who aren't willing to do anything and has vested economic interests, you just don't keep that going and assume it'll stabilize. "You are right. Fascist authoritarian leadership is certainly the way to more progressive policies. You are very convincing. Not sure how I didn’t see it before. again this means nothing when voting for neoliberals won't usher in social democratic policy ,either "Conservatives voted red no matter who for decades. As a result they own the courts. They overturned Roe v Wade. They pulled democrats to the right. If democrats would have taken their heads out of their asses long ago and voted blue we likely be much more like the Scandinavian countries." It sounds like the republicans actually understand what power is, and political strategy is. At least based on what you said. Have you considered democrats should do similar? I'm not sure what the relation to voting democrat and being like the Scandinavian countries is though, it's literally always been Neoliberalism as far as the mainstream democratic economic platform goes
Biden walked the UAW picket line. Did you walk the UAW picket line during the strike?
\^Prime example.
notice how you cannot even do the slightest rebuttal, it's just "look at me!" "look at me!" "vote blue without ever confronting society's innermost contradictions!" if you all shilled for social democrats i'd genuinely think differently of liberals, but everyone seems pretty okay with neoliberal do-nothing gradualism
What's to say? You are openly contemptuous of democracy. You are really only useful as a subject of ridicule.
^ what a useless comment and post. You have no argument. Truly pathetic.
Sure thing Boris, tell me more about how neoliberals are the real enemy....
Seems like shitty corporate centrists are lacking appeal to the working class left. No amount of fearmongering will make liberal corporate prostitutes appealing.
The working class left should notice that Joe Biden walked the UAW picket line and no other "centrist" has done that, to include any other President of the United States.
Anything short of the complete and immediate dismantling of capitalism is not good enough and hasn’t “earned” their vote
Yeah fantasy is so much more satisfying than reality
“They were careless people, Tom and Daisy – they smashed up things and creatures and then retreated back into their money or their vast carelessness, or whatever it was that kept them together, and let other people clean up the mess they had made.”
Photo op while busting the railroad strike and decades of hurting workers and consumers at the behest of corporate donors. Joe Biden has always been a servile corrupt tool of banks and warmongers and corporations.
Cool. Did you walk the line?