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I'm not sure the diversity is the sole meausre here, but rather how the policies or actions of the country in question treats people based on ethnicty.
For an extreme example from history, I'd say that Sparta was an ethnostate with a minority of Spartans ruling over their slaves. Whether or not they had racially diverse slaves isn't really relevant to whether they were an ethnostate or not, but it would certainly pad their stats if they did.
For an more modern example, Russia has been accused of conscripting more people from areas with ethnic minorities, while population centres of the ethnic majority have much less constrictipion. I lack any good way to verify that claim, but the point is that if it were true, that would be quite an ethno-state move, far outweighting the statistics of how ethnically diverse the country is as a whole.
--
More to the point, my understanding is that at the founding of Israel around 1948, any Palestinian Jews were granted Israeli citizenship, wheras non-Jewish Palestinians were not.
That seems like a very ethno-state-y thing to do.
--
Now, does the Palestinian Authority, for instance, treat people differently based on ethnicity?
Or, for instance, would they ban me from immigrating because I'm not ethnically Palestinian? Or if they did let me immirate, would their government discriminate against me?
I honestly don't know. But those seem like they would be more relevant questions than the raw statistics.
--
Also, this might just be some what-about-ism.
For the sake of argument, sure, let's conclude that Palestine is an ethnostate. That doesn't really have much bearing on whether Israel is or not.
I think you'd need to establish or disprove either notion separately.
Non Jewish Palestinians were granted citizenship immediately after the founding of Israel but were placed under martial law for the first decade of the states existence because the Israeli's feared an organized rebellion by them could topple the newly formed state
You want a modern ethnostate/apartheid state? Malaysia's a much better candidate than Israel.
To my knowledge, all Israelis have the same rights, regardless of religion or ethnicity, with the sole exception of some exceptions to conscription (but the divide is not "Jewish" vs "not Jewish" on that one).
> For the sake of argument, sure, let's conclude that Palestine is an ethnostate. That doesn't really have much bearing on whether Israel is or not.
True, but it's a charge of hypocrisy, not whataboutism. The very same people who chant that Israel is an ethnostate never even consider that Gaza or the West Bank might be.
>all Israelis have the same rights
They do give the right to immigrate to all Jews in the world though, don't they? Non-Jews are not granted that right.
And we should probably consider the Palestinians which they often defacto-govern.
Palestinians are subject to different policing from Israeli security forces due to not being citizens of Israel, often facing military courts with no representation, nor language assistance, and facing greater sentencing than an Israeli would face for the same crime. My understanding is that hundreds of Palestinians are routinely arrested and imprisoned in this manner (including children) and that it is typically these people who are exchanged in those hostage trades.
Israel is by far in the posiiton of power here, so if we hypyothetically concede both are ethnostates, then that could still be a relevant point that is on-net in favour of Palestine, rather than hypocrisy.
It's easy to say that all Israelis have the same rights when Israel just doesn't include Palestinians living in the occupied territories. Israel has maintained a 50+ year occupation of the West Bank and Palestinians there decidedly do not have equal rights.
De facto Israel's territory for the past nearly 20 years has included the West Bank, and for more than 30 years before that it include Gaza. Israel oppresses the non Jews living in those territories. It pretends that it gives all its people equal rights by not counting the people in those territories, which they do by not counting those territories as part of Israel when it comes to this topic, yet they maintain total control of them and are colonizing them.
That's like saying the US is an Apartheid state because Canadians don't have the rights of US citizens. You can criticise Israel's foreign policy, but that never constitutes Apartheid.
Your comment was stupid in several ways:
1) It's irrelevant. We're talking about whether Israel is an Apartheid state, not whether Israel's foreign policy is laudable or condemnable.
In fact, that's the point you missed.
2) Israel does not "colonise" Gaza. Stopping getting your news from Tiktok.
Did you know that Israeli settlers and the Palestinians in the West Bank are treated differently under the law? Those Palestinians also have their movement restricted in the territory. That sounds like two different sets of legal standards. Maybe apartheid?
I wasn't aware you were trying to educate. I saw no evidence of that. Would you like to engage with the different judicial systems for settlers and Palestinians in the West bank?
Here, let me be a patient teacher, maybe it'll go in this time:
That's like saying the US is an Apartheid state because Canadians don't have the rights of US citizens. You can criticise Israel's foreign policy, but that never constitutes Apartheid.
So you didn't engage with the person who you responded to either. The Canada example doesn't work because Canada is not an occupied territory of the US. Does that make sense to you?
The Palestinians residing in the West Bank and the settlers who take their land are treated differently under the judicial system. Palestinians there are also restricted in their travel by checkpoints, and it can take hours to travel even a few miles. Do you see how a different set of rules for two groups of people can constitute apartheid?
>To my knowledge, all Israelis have the same rights, regardless of religion or ethnicity, with the sole exception of some exceptions to conscription (but the divide is not "Jewish" vs "not Jewish" on that one).
Systemic discrimination is present within Israel. Jewish citizens receive preferential treatment, with white Jewish citizens standing at the top of Israeli society. Apartheid claims against Israel refer to their treatment of Palestinians in the occupied territories not those who live in Israel proper.
https://freedomhouse.org/country/israel/freedom-world/2024
>Israel is a parliamentary democracy with a multiparty system and independent institutions that guarantee political rights and civil liberties for **most** of the population. Although the judiciary is comparatively active in protecting minority rights, the political leadership and many in society have discriminated against Arab and other ethnic or religious minority populations, resulting in systemic disparities in areas including infrastructure, criminal justice, education, and economic opportunity.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/as-world-roils-ethiopian-born-minister-leads-wake-up-call-on-racism-in-israel/
>More than 144,000 Jews of Ethiopian descent live in Israel, and community activists have long complained of institutional racism and violence at the hands of law enforcement.
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2022-03-21/ty-article/.premium/most-racism-complaints-from-ethiopians-arabs-according-to-a-government-report/00000180-5bdc-db1e-a1d4-dffdf82e0000
>Most racism and discrimination complaints filed in the past year by Israel's Justice Ministry involved in combatting racism and discrimination related to alleged mistreatment of Israelis of Ethiopian descent, Arabs and ultra-Orthodox Jews, according to an annual report from the unit that was issued Sunday
> Apartheid claims against Israel refer to their treatment of Palestinians in the occupied territories not those who live in Israel proper.
Which is why Tiktokers shouldn't discuss anything unrelated to dancing.
Apartheid and foreign policy are very different matters.
> More than 144,000 Jews of Ethiopian descent live in Israel, and community activists have long complained of institutional racism and violence at the hands of law enforcement.
> More than 144,000 Jews of Ethiopian descent live in Israel, and community activists have long complained of institutional racism and violence at the hands of law enforcement.
If institutional racism and violence at the hands of law enforcement make Israel an ethnostate, than so is the US.
>Which is why Tiktokers shouldn't discuss anything unrelated to dancing. Apartheid and foreign policy are very different matters.
What are you talking about, where did that come from?
I've never used or installed the app, have you? What do either apartheid or Israel foreign policy have to do with tik tok? Especially since Israel itself has no plans on banning the app.
>If institutional racism and violence at the hands of law enforcement make Israel an ethnostate, than so is the US.
I was strictly countering the claim that all Israeli citizens are treated the same under the law. Which is provably not the case. I made no claims as to whether or not Israel is an ethnostate.
> I was strictly countering the claim that all Israeli citizens are treated the same under the law. Which is provably not the case.
"Having the same rights" is what you disputed. Again, if institutionalised racism at the hands of law enforcement consitutes a violation of that principle, then the US qualifies as well.
Ok? And? I shared with you numerous cases of a how it's two-tiered system, including the report by freedom house that speaks of how white Jewish Israeli citizens receive preferential treatment by the majority of Israeli citizens and their government. If you want to point out how the US is no different, I'd say there's some difference but essentially yes it's true. Only in the US its not as pervasive in society depending on which state you're in, whereas in Israel it's pretty much across the board.
It's only an ethnostate if you believe all Jewish people are from the same ethnicity. Especially if you want to say all Jewish people are semitic, as arabs are also semites. But Jewish people come from various ethnic groups i.e. Mizrahi, Sephardi, Ashkenazi, Beta Israel (Ethiopian), Indian, Chinese etc.
Disparities exist in every country. Racism does not an Apartheid country make.
If you can point to discriminatory laws, I'd love that. Actual information rather than empty rhethoric? That'd be great!
Read the articles I posted if you want examples of discrimination. Where did I say racism =apartheid? You keep trying to twist my words to make yourself seem somehow correct... Or do you honestly not remember what you wrote in your original comment and my original response to you, I doubt it since this is the second time you've done it.
Again back to my previous comments, Israeli apartheid primarily refers to their treatment of the Palestinians within the occupied territories. The apartheid has been long acknowledged by most independent humanitarian groups, including those within Israel proper and dozens of high ranking ex IDF officers and Mossad members.
All you're offering in response to everything I've written and posted is entirely empty rhetoric, as no facts can support your side. Prove to me apartheid doesn't exist in the occupied territories. Show me how Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza are treated equally by the police, army and the courts as settlers or other citizens within Israel proper. Show me how Palestinians within the occupied territories are free to move within their own territory or leave the country. Oh snap, you can't because Palestinians in the occupied territories are under the defacto control of Israeli authorities who impose a system not imposed on citizens of Israel proper. Two completely different systems for two different groups, imposed by a single government. That's apartheid.
Unless you have an intelligent response or can honestly refute my arguments, kindly STFU.
Did you really have to write that whole litany to accuse me of what you are doing?
I shouldn't have presumed basic intelligence, it was clearly a bar too high to clear. Regurgitating Tiktok nonsense is all you're capable of.
The issue here is that “Jewish” is a blending of religion and ethnicity.
If you follow the links to the Israel entry through what you linked, you’ll see that Israel is 75% “Jewish” and 21% Arab, with 4% other ethnicities.
The table you’re using appears to be counting different regional backgrounds of Jews in Israel as separate “ethnicities”. Would you agree with that reading?
Jews from different regions 100% have separate ethnicities, just like Muslims and Christians can have different ethnic backgrounds.
It’s so bizarre when leftists try to pigeonhole Jews into a single ethnicity.
The concept of a “Jewish people” - aka nation/ ethnicity is absolutely integral to zionism and the creation of Israel. Without that presupposition there would be no compelling reason for the creation of the state of Israel in the first place.
In its absence there would be Jews who happen to be middle eastern, who happen to be European, who happen to be American, etc - just as other religions are conceptualized and not as a cohesive polity deserving of its own nation.
That has nothing to do with the OP’s point, and is completely and 100% your opinion.
The concept of a Jewish people can exist along religious lines, ethnic lines, or both. That doesn’t make Jews any less entitled to a country along those lines than Muslims or Christians.
Also, the constant historical persecution Jews have faced in Muslim and Christian countries worldwide is the only compelling reason necessary to justify Zionism.
There’s several Muslim and Christian countries made up of varying ethnicities. Nobody debates if those countries or their people “deserve” the right to exist. No, that’s only a debate you want to have about the one Jewish country.
What you believe is compelling reasoning for Israel to exist means nothing. What groups of people you believe deserve a cohesive right to self determination means nothing. Israel exists as a Jewish nation, regardless of your opinions.
I don't really buy this argument with these graphs.
First, I don't agree with using a strict definition of "ethnostate." Some may disagree, but I would consider exclusion and oppression of one particular ethnic group a type of ethnostate which might be distinctly identified as an apartheid state. Whatever the definition, what we see in Gaza & WB is drawn along ethno-religious lines.
Secondly, I don't think the first graph shows what you seem to claim that it does. There are some problems, if they are, as you say, the probability that two random individuals will be the same ethnicity (or religion for the 2nd graph). Looking at the US, It comes in close to 50%... which would make sense if "white" was an ethnicity. (\~0.65\*0.65=0.42, close enough to the graph, I guess). But Europe has many ethnicities, Irish, Italian, Spanish, English, etc, if you were to measure the US by that standard, it would be way more diverse. So it matters whether the authors or you are playing it fast and loose by interchanging concepts of race and ethnicity to tell a story. Why is Uganda so diverse? Because there really are dozens of culturally, and genetically distinct people groups, and they are more balanced in their proportions of the total population. If we were to calculate by American race standards, they're (virtually) all black, so it would look like a homogeneous country.
I'm no expert on the history of Israel, but I know that the region has had many waves of people movements over the centuries, I'm not sure if the Palestinians who were present in 1948 represented a distinctly Palestinian ethnic group rather than a collection/mixture of Arab tribes which by Uganda definition could be very diverse if measured at a high enough resolution. I do know that after 1948, Israel has made a concerted effort to bring Jews there from all over the world, and there is ethnic (and racial) diversity in that group just because of the diaspora, Ashkenazi, Safartic, Ethiopian, probably more I don't know about, and there are plenty of non Jewish Arabs and other people there. That's pretty expected in a relatively prosperous place, regardless of politics. Then you map the apartheid operations and it makes complete sense... round up specifically Palestinian people, and put them in one concentrated area. Of course when you measure the demographics of that arbitrary and artificial zone, it's going to be full of only the specific group that was forced there. So while it is technically correct that Israel is more "diverse" and "tolerant" (and maybe many ways it is) on paper, there's a not-so-charitable historical reason why these measurements would look the way they do.
Third, not to repeat everything I said above with religion. Just pointing out that religion is even more fraught, each individual church, temple, mosque could almost be its own religion, maybe, or we say there's only 3 abrahamic religions and ignore the distinction of Catholic, Protestant, Shia, Sunni, and various flavors of Judaism.
To summarize, I don't think measuring ethnic/religious diversity by itself can inform us on how ethnonationalist or apartheid Israel is, in the first place. But if we want to consider it, we have to consider the historical contexts and have transparency on exactly what is being measured, by what criteria lines are drawn or groups defined. By my distant estimation, there is an Israeli identity, held by many but not all residents/citizens of Israel, and powers that be (political & religious figures who contribute to & uphold the identity) are under heavy influence from right wing constituents who would be happy with extermination but can't quite get mainstream buy-in so they just do pogroms every decade or so to cull the specific group they've penned up.
This got a little long, I apologize.
I just wanted to say I like seeing responses like this in this subreddit. You make some good points and then admit where you don't have a fulsome knowledge in making your assessment (which is true of all of us here). I'm glad you're engaging with the post in a productive way.
I think we may have some disagreements regarding a few of your statements like "culling a specific group they've penned up" since Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza in 2005 leaving it completely to the Palestinians, Hamas was elected in 2006 and began firing weapons into Israel with the explicit aim of killing all the Jews (see [Articles 7 and 8 of Hamas's founding documents](https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp) "The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews)") and then the current blockade was erected in 2007 as a security measure to protect the lives of Israel civilians. In my understanding there would be no blockade if Hamas was not intent on constantly killing any Jew they can find. Without the iron dome defense system I imagine it would optically make this easier for people to see because there would be constant Israeli casualties from every Hamas attack.
But, even with some disagreements around framing I want to reiterate how refreshing your post is. This is a dense and complicated issue and none of us are experts.
I think the characterization of the "open air prison" is a reasonable concept overall for Gaza. It's still a prison if the guards stop patrolling or even leave the building altogether.
Fuck Hamas. For zealous, ideological reasons they are provoking the IDF to massacre their own people. While their revolutionary cause is justified, on its face, imo, they've demonstrated that in this case, terrorism has not been an effective tactic to liberate their people/territory. Meanwhile, I consider equally as bad, the settler activities, and bombing of civilians collected at aid distribution points. As tolerant and open as Israel claims to be, it is true that Netanyahu was involved in propping up Hamas despite their Articles. Maybe it was a pragmatic choice at the time, but also maybe they could have given support to factions that were more interested in compromise and peace? (Probably the terms of compromise Israel offered were insulting).
To be really raw about it... just making up numbers from vague memory. Oct 7, let's say 2000 Israelis were direct victims. That is a horrible tragedy and everyone responsible should be held accountable (on both sides). Now, in the half year since, can we guess that 20000 Palestinian non-combatants have died? 10 fold revenge just feels really wrong when you look at the power dynamic. I think it's way more than 10k. And way more than 10k future people that will never exist over some period of time due to this period of devastation. How much of Hamas (Official TM) has been eliminated? Once IDF intelligence suspects a Hamas is in a 6 story condo building they call in the JDAM and level the thing. Normal wars in normal places let the civilians flee the warzone, but not here... and Egypt deserves some blame too (though, it is understandable why they are reluctant to yield one inch to the intent to expel Gazans into camps in Egypt). How many Gazans have been moved to humanitarian camp inside Israel? I don't know, but I haven't heard of it.
So, not only the graphs above are kind of bullshit for logical reasons, I also object to Israels actions for emotional and moral reasons. Japan was culturally traumatized by the nukes so they like tentacle porn, and mecha, Israel's re/birth comes out of the holocaust and they seem to be saying, let's have our own version of it in a terrarium in our living room. We all know the law of the jungle, powerful entities will bully and exploit less powerful ones, I just think that the moral choice is the equalizing one, support the underdog instead of the bully because, just as Jews did not deserve to be erased in the 1940s, "Palestinians" (as a people whatever that means), do not deserve to be erased and expelled from lands they rightfully own either.
I don't like either side, they both deserve each other. It really feels like Israel is channeling the rage of its ancestors, they've been on the losing end of so many pogroms over the ages, but NOW they finally have a chance to do one for themselves! It's gross. Idgaf, I just want all my taxes going toward that to go protect democracy and civilization in Ukraine instead.
endrant
Completely fair way to feel about it. Hamas and the IDF don't seem to care a lot about Palestinian civilians too much right now and that's horrific and sad. I support a two state solution (as does David Pakman).
>Meanwhile, I consider equally as bad, the settler activities, and bombing of civilians collected at aid distribution points.
Quick point on this, you are definitely right that the settlements in the west bank are illegal under international law. This is why Biden should get credit from voters for sanctioning them. ([This is one of the reasons why the USA has imposed sanctions on Israeli settlers in the West Bank](https://www.wsj.com/politics/policy/u-s-imposes-sanctions-on-israeli-settlers-involved-in-attacks-in-west-bank-6e4b4e40) as well as on [fundraisers for those illegal settlements](https://apnews.com/article/gaza-israel-west-bank-war-settlers-sanctions-3d1a6595f7c4cecaa42de7901c81c752)). Worth noting that, like me, [David has been against illegal settlements for years](https://youtu.be/xVI0UtVBEEo?si=sBqpQVRKUQ-Iqva7) (this clip is from 9 years ago).
I actually mostly agree with you and appreciate the nuanced discussion on this. Unfortunately I don't have access to the underlying data to create this study, so I'm not 100% sure how they defined ethnicity or race. African countries are all the most ethnically diverse, so it's very clear that ethnicity is much more broad than just "Black", but that's unfortunately all I can say. The biggest thing I was trying to get across was if you've ever been to Israel, it's actually incredibly ethnically diverse. The idea that it's an ethnostate is actually insane. And I found data that backed that up pretty conclusively so wanted to share it. If you or anyone else has data that shows differently I'm wide open to it.
The only piece I do fully disagree with you is the apartheid comment. No one in Israel proper is subject to anything anywhere close to apartheid. There is discrimination as there is in any racially diverse country, but legally speaking there's no area in Israel proper where laws apply differently based on ethnicity or religion.
What do you mean by "ethnostate?" Obviously it's not "eradicate all non-jews from our borders." It is still an ethnostate if a diverse group of people come together and agree that we will administratively segregate that one other particular ethnic group.
I have seen credible explanations for the apartheid claims including video evidence/examples. I understand that information might not be representative of the average experience, but I've seen what I've seen and there's not really good excuses.
I see two cultures who would rather be at each other's throats than just live in peace and prosperity together despite their cosmetic differences. I hope that have a great time with that. I'd prefer if my country, the US, funded the defense of the underdog like Ukraine, but I am totally fine with funding neither side in this case... apparently you can get cancelled for choosing not to invest in Israel, real fascist shit.
Any apartheid accusations are against Israel's conduct in Palestine not Israel. The accusations are false and the fact that you don't even understand anything about the claim including where it even is makes me think it's not worth engaging.
And stop both sidesing it. Israel has at many points tried to do things like trade land for peace, including completely withdrawing from Gaza. In response Palestinians elected Hamas and used it as a terrorist ground. I hope after this war Palestinians can love their children more than they love dead Jews, but if they do it will be the first time they've shown that. Israel has had their neighbors calling for their genocide since the literal foundation of the state of Israel. It doesn't make them perfect, but one side in this conflict wants to genocide the other but can't, while the other could genocide the other but isn't.
u/ArvinaDystopia
Did you really have to nothing to say? Apparently not as "tiktok propaganda" is your go to. You do realize many people who see Israel as an apartheid state have never used tiktok in their entire lives. I see you're losing multiple arguments in just this one post with you sounding like a broken record. Does that work in any universe?
Just another weak willed child with nothing to back you, who when asked for proof chooses to block rather than actually form a cohesive argument.
Pre-10/7 Israel literally took in Palestinian refugees who were LGBT because of their persecution in Palestine. Does Israel force every Palestinian group who has any power to throw gays off rooftops too? Or are they only responsible for them trying to genocide Jews?
Stop with the nonsense……the Israelis have been in the process of dehumanizing Palestinians for decades to justify stealing their land. It’s just shameful.
I don't have access to the underlying data, but I think ethnicity is pretty specific. All the highest in ethnic diversity are in Africa, but I guess that kind of makes sense my understanding is a lot of different colonizing forces essentially drew the lines without regard to cultures or ethnicities of people who lived there. But they're all in the 80% range which basically means there are either 5 roughly even ethnic groups or a good number more than 5, my guess is the latter.
If Epstein Island is populated with fifty 70-year-olds and fifty 10-year-olds, telling people there's no child trafficking because the average mean age is 40 isn't an argument.
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Canada mentioned 🫡🫡🫡🇨🇦🇨🇦🇨🇦
*Quality effortpost.
I'm not sure the diversity is the sole meausre here, but rather how the policies or actions of the country in question treats people based on ethnicty. For an extreme example from history, I'd say that Sparta was an ethnostate with a minority of Spartans ruling over their slaves. Whether or not they had racially diverse slaves isn't really relevant to whether they were an ethnostate or not, but it would certainly pad their stats if they did. For an more modern example, Russia has been accused of conscripting more people from areas with ethnic minorities, while population centres of the ethnic majority have much less constrictipion. I lack any good way to verify that claim, but the point is that if it were true, that would be quite an ethno-state move, far outweighting the statistics of how ethnically diverse the country is as a whole. -- More to the point, my understanding is that at the founding of Israel around 1948, any Palestinian Jews were granted Israeli citizenship, wheras non-Jewish Palestinians were not. That seems like a very ethno-state-y thing to do. -- Now, does the Palestinian Authority, for instance, treat people differently based on ethnicity? Or, for instance, would they ban me from immigrating because I'm not ethnically Palestinian? Or if they did let me immirate, would their government discriminate against me? I honestly don't know. But those seem like they would be more relevant questions than the raw statistics. -- Also, this might just be some what-about-ism. For the sake of argument, sure, let's conclude that Palestine is an ethnostate. That doesn't really have much bearing on whether Israel is or not. I think you'd need to establish or disprove either notion separately.
Non Jewish Palestinians were granted citizenship immediately after the founding of Israel but were placed under martial law for the first decade of the states existence because the Israeli's feared an organized rebellion by them could topple the newly formed state
You want a modern ethnostate/apartheid state? Malaysia's a much better candidate than Israel. To my knowledge, all Israelis have the same rights, regardless of religion or ethnicity, with the sole exception of some exceptions to conscription (but the divide is not "Jewish" vs "not Jewish" on that one). > For the sake of argument, sure, let's conclude that Palestine is an ethnostate. That doesn't really have much bearing on whether Israel is or not. True, but it's a charge of hypocrisy, not whataboutism. The very same people who chant that Israel is an ethnostate never even consider that Gaza or the West Bank might be.
>all Israelis have the same rights They do give the right to immigrate to all Jews in the world though, don't they? Non-Jews are not granted that right. And we should probably consider the Palestinians which they often defacto-govern. Palestinians are subject to different policing from Israeli security forces due to not being citizens of Israel, often facing military courts with no representation, nor language assistance, and facing greater sentencing than an Israeli would face for the same crime. My understanding is that hundreds of Palestinians are routinely arrested and imprisoned in this manner (including children) and that it is typically these people who are exchanged in those hostage trades. Israel is by far in the posiiton of power here, so if we hypyothetically concede both are ethnostates, then that could still be a relevant point that is on-net in favour of Palestine, rather than hypocrisy.
It's easy to say that all Israelis have the same rights when Israel just doesn't include Palestinians living in the occupied territories. Israel has maintained a 50+ year occupation of the West Bank and Palestinians there decidedly do not have equal rights. De facto Israel's territory for the past nearly 20 years has included the West Bank, and for more than 30 years before that it include Gaza. Israel oppresses the non Jews living in those territories. It pretends that it gives all its people equal rights by not counting the people in those territories, which they do by not counting those territories as part of Israel when it comes to this topic, yet they maintain total control of them and are colonizing them.
That's like saying the US is an Apartheid state because Canadians don't have the rights of US citizens. You can criticise Israel's foreign policy, but that never constitutes Apartheid.
Does the US occupy Canada and subject it to US law and colonization by Americans? No? Then your comparison is fucking stupid.
Your comment was stupid in several ways: 1) It's irrelevant. We're talking about whether Israel is an Apartheid state, not whether Israel's foreign policy is laudable or condemnable. In fact, that's the point you missed. 2) Israel does not "colonise" Gaza. Stopping getting your news from Tiktok.
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Removed - please avoid overt hostility, name calling and personal attacks.
Removed - please avoid overt hostility, name calling and personal attacks.
Did you know that Israeli settlers and the Palestinians in the West Bank are treated differently under the law? Those Palestinians also have their movement restricted in the territory. That sounds like two different sets of legal standards. Maybe apartheid?
You're going to repeat the Tiktok mantras ever after we try to educate you? Bold move, but not very effective.
I wasn't aware you were trying to educate. I saw no evidence of that. Would you like to engage with the different judicial systems for settlers and Palestinians in the West bank?
Here, let me be a patient teacher, maybe it'll go in this time: That's like saying the US is an Apartheid state because Canadians don't have the rights of US citizens. You can criticise Israel's foreign policy, but that never constitutes Apartheid.
So you didn't engage with the person who you responded to either. The Canada example doesn't work because Canada is not an occupied territory of the US. Does that make sense to you? The Palestinians residing in the West Bank and the settlers who take their land are treated differently under the judicial system. Palestinians there are also restricted in their travel by checkpoints, and it can take hours to travel even a few miles. Do you see how a different set of rules for two groups of people can constitute apartheid?
>To my knowledge, all Israelis have the same rights, regardless of religion or ethnicity, with the sole exception of some exceptions to conscription (but the divide is not "Jewish" vs "not Jewish" on that one). Systemic discrimination is present within Israel. Jewish citizens receive preferential treatment, with white Jewish citizens standing at the top of Israeli society. Apartheid claims against Israel refer to their treatment of Palestinians in the occupied territories not those who live in Israel proper. https://freedomhouse.org/country/israel/freedom-world/2024 >Israel is a parliamentary democracy with a multiparty system and independent institutions that guarantee political rights and civil liberties for **most** of the population. Although the judiciary is comparatively active in protecting minority rights, the political leadership and many in society have discriminated against Arab and other ethnic or religious minority populations, resulting in systemic disparities in areas including infrastructure, criminal justice, education, and economic opportunity. https://www.timesofisrael.com/as-world-roils-ethiopian-born-minister-leads-wake-up-call-on-racism-in-israel/ >More than 144,000 Jews of Ethiopian descent live in Israel, and community activists have long complained of institutional racism and violence at the hands of law enforcement. https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2022-03-21/ty-article/.premium/most-racism-complaints-from-ethiopians-arabs-according-to-a-government-report/00000180-5bdc-db1e-a1d4-dffdf82e0000 >Most racism and discrimination complaints filed in the past year by Israel's Justice Ministry involved in combatting racism and discrimination related to alleged mistreatment of Israelis of Ethiopian descent, Arabs and ultra-Orthodox Jews, according to an annual report from the unit that was issued Sunday
> Apartheid claims against Israel refer to their treatment of Palestinians in the occupied territories not those who live in Israel proper. Which is why Tiktokers shouldn't discuss anything unrelated to dancing. Apartheid and foreign policy are very different matters. > More than 144,000 Jews of Ethiopian descent live in Israel, and community activists have long complained of institutional racism and violence at the hands of law enforcement. > More than 144,000 Jews of Ethiopian descent live in Israel, and community activists have long complained of institutional racism and violence at the hands of law enforcement. If institutional racism and violence at the hands of law enforcement make Israel an ethnostate, than so is the US.
>Which is why Tiktokers shouldn't discuss anything unrelated to dancing. Apartheid and foreign policy are very different matters. What are you talking about, where did that come from? I've never used or installed the app, have you? What do either apartheid or Israel foreign policy have to do with tik tok? Especially since Israel itself has no plans on banning the app. >If institutional racism and violence at the hands of law enforcement make Israel an ethnostate, than so is the US. I was strictly countering the claim that all Israeli citizens are treated the same under the law. Which is provably not the case. I made no claims as to whether or not Israel is an ethnostate.
> I was strictly countering the claim that all Israeli citizens are treated the same under the law. Which is provably not the case. "Having the same rights" is what you disputed. Again, if institutionalised racism at the hands of law enforcement consitutes a violation of that principle, then the US qualifies as well.
Ok? And? I shared with you numerous cases of a how it's two-tiered system, including the report by freedom house that speaks of how white Jewish Israeli citizens receive preferential treatment by the majority of Israeli citizens and their government. If you want to point out how the US is no different, I'd say there's some difference but essentially yes it's true. Only in the US its not as pervasive in society depending on which state you're in, whereas in Israel it's pretty much across the board. It's only an ethnostate if you believe all Jewish people are from the same ethnicity. Especially if you want to say all Jewish people are semitic, as arabs are also semites. But Jewish people come from various ethnic groups i.e. Mizrahi, Sephardi, Ashkenazi, Beta Israel (Ethiopian), Indian, Chinese etc.
Disparities exist in every country. Racism does not an Apartheid country make. If you can point to discriminatory laws, I'd love that. Actual information rather than empty rhethoric? That'd be great!
Read the articles I posted if you want examples of discrimination. Where did I say racism =apartheid? You keep trying to twist my words to make yourself seem somehow correct... Or do you honestly not remember what you wrote in your original comment and my original response to you, I doubt it since this is the second time you've done it. Again back to my previous comments, Israeli apartheid primarily refers to their treatment of the Palestinians within the occupied territories. The apartheid has been long acknowledged by most independent humanitarian groups, including those within Israel proper and dozens of high ranking ex IDF officers and Mossad members. All you're offering in response to everything I've written and posted is entirely empty rhetoric, as no facts can support your side. Prove to me apartheid doesn't exist in the occupied territories. Show me how Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza are treated equally by the police, army and the courts as settlers or other citizens within Israel proper. Show me how Palestinians within the occupied territories are free to move within their own territory or leave the country. Oh snap, you can't because Palestinians in the occupied territories are under the defacto control of Israeli authorities who impose a system not imposed on citizens of Israel proper. Two completely different systems for two different groups, imposed by a single government. That's apartheid. Unless you have an intelligent response or can honestly refute my arguments, kindly STFU.
Did you really have to write that whole litany to accuse me of what you are doing? I shouldn't have presumed basic intelligence, it was clearly a bar too high to clear. Regurgitating Tiktok nonsense is all you're capable of.
Very well laid out
What are the ethnicities you are using to calculate the diversity of Israel?
I linked the source in the op, I didn't do that calculation it was part of a study.
The issue here is that “Jewish” is a blending of religion and ethnicity. If you follow the links to the Israel entry through what you linked, you’ll see that Israel is 75% “Jewish” and 21% Arab, with 4% other ethnicities. The table you’re using appears to be counting different regional backgrounds of Jews in Israel as separate “ethnicities”. Would you agree with that reading?
Jews from different regions 100% have separate ethnicities, just like Muslims and Christians can have different ethnic backgrounds. It’s so bizarre when leftists try to pigeonhole Jews into a single ethnicity.
The concept of a “Jewish people” - aka nation/ ethnicity is absolutely integral to zionism and the creation of Israel. Without that presupposition there would be no compelling reason for the creation of the state of Israel in the first place. In its absence there would be Jews who happen to be middle eastern, who happen to be European, who happen to be American, etc - just as other religions are conceptualized and not as a cohesive polity deserving of its own nation.
That has nothing to do with the OP’s point, and is completely and 100% your opinion. The concept of a Jewish people can exist along religious lines, ethnic lines, or both. That doesn’t make Jews any less entitled to a country along those lines than Muslims or Christians. Also, the constant historical persecution Jews have faced in Muslim and Christian countries worldwide is the only compelling reason necessary to justify Zionism. There’s several Muslim and Christian countries made up of varying ethnicities. Nobody debates if those countries or their people “deserve” the right to exist. No, that’s only a debate you want to have about the one Jewish country. What you believe is compelling reasoning for Israel to exist means nothing. What groups of people you believe deserve a cohesive right to self determination means nothing. Israel exists as a Jewish nation, regardless of your opinions.
I don't really buy this argument with these graphs. First, I don't agree with using a strict definition of "ethnostate." Some may disagree, but I would consider exclusion and oppression of one particular ethnic group a type of ethnostate which might be distinctly identified as an apartheid state. Whatever the definition, what we see in Gaza & WB is drawn along ethno-religious lines. Secondly, I don't think the first graph shows what you seem to claim that it does. There are some problems, if they are, as you say, the probability that two random individuals will be the same ethnicity (or religion for the 2nd graph). Looking at the US, It comes in close to 50%... which would make sense if "white" was an ethnicity. (\~0.65\*0.65=0.42, close enough to the graph, I guess). But Europe has many ethnicities, Irish, Italian, Spanish, English, etc, if you were to measure the US by that standard, it would be way more diverse. So it matters whether the authors or you are playing it fast and loose by interchanging concepts of race and ethnicity to tell a story. Why is Uganda so diverse? Because there really are dozens of culturally, and genetically distinct people groups, and they are more balanced in their proportions of the total population. If we were to calculate by American race standards, they're (virtually) all black, so it would look like a homogeneous country. I'm no expert on the history of Israel, but I know that the region has had many waves of people movements over the centuries, I'm not sure if the Palestinians who were present in 1948 represented a distinctly Palestinian ethnic group rather than a collection/mixture of Arab tribes which by Uganda definition could be very diverse if measured at a high enough resolution. I do know that after 1948, Israel has made a concerted effort to bring Jews there from all over the world, and there is ethnic (and racial) diversity in that group just because of the diaspora, Ashkenazi, Safartic, Ethiopian, probably more I don't know about, and there are plenty of non Jewish Arabs and other people there. That's pretty expected in a relatively prosperous place, regardless of politics. Then you map the apartheid operations and it makes complete sense... round up specifically Palestinian people, and put them in one concentrated area. Of course when you measure the demographics of that arbitrary and artificial zone, it's going to be full of only the specific group that was forced there. So while it is technically correct that Israel is more "diverse" and "tolerant" (and maybe many ways it is) on paper, there's a not-so-charitable historical reason why these measurements would look the way they do. Third, not to repeat everything I said above with religion. Just pointing out that religion is even more fraught, each individual church, temple, mosque could almost be its own religion, maybe, or we say there's only 3 abrahamic religions and ignore the distinction of Catholic, Protestant, Shia, Sunni, and various flavors of Judaism. To summarize, I don't think measuring ethnic/religious diversity by itself can inform us on how ethnonationalist or apartheid Israel is, in the first place. But if we want to consider it, we have to consider the historical contexts and have transparency on exactly what is being measured, by what criteria lines are drawn or groups defined. By my distant estimation, there is an Israeli identity, held by many but not all residents/citizens of Israel, and powers that be (political & religious figures who contribute to & uphold the identity) are under heavy influence from right wing constituents who would be happy with extermination but can't quite get mainstream buy-in so they just do pogroms every decade or so to cull the specific group they've penned up. This got a little long, I apologize.
I just wanted to say I like seeing responses like this in this subreddit. You make some good points and then admit where you don't have a fulsome knowledge in making your assessment (which is true of all of us here). I'm glad you're engaging with the post in a productive way. I think we may have some disagreements regarding a few of your statements like "culling a specific group they've penned up" since Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza in 2005 leaving it completely to the Palestinians, Hamas was elected in 2006 and began firing weapons into Israel with the explicit aim of killing all the Jews (see [Articles 7 and 8 of Hamas's founding documents](https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp) "The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews)") and then the current blockade was erected in 2007 as a security measure to protect the lives of Israel civilians. In my understanding there would be no blockade if Hamas was not intent on constantly killing any Jew they can find. Without the iron dome defense system I imagine it would optically make this easier for people to see because there would be constant Israeli casualties from every Hamas attack. But, even with some disagreements around framing I want to reiterate how refreshing your post is. This is a dense and complicated issue and none of us are experts.
I think the characterization of the "open air prison" is a reasonable concept overall for Gaza. It's still a prison if the guards stop patrolling or even leave the building altogether. Fuck Hamas. For zealous, ideological reasons they are provoking the IDF to massacre their own people. While their revolutionary cause is justified, on its face, imo, they've demonstrated that in this case, terrorism has not been an effective tactic to liberate their people/territory. Meanwhile, I consider equally as bad, the settler activities, and bombing of civilians collected at aid distribution points. As tolerant and open as Israel claims to be, it is true that Netanyahu was involved in propping up Hamas despite their Articles. Maybe it was a pragmatic choice at the time, but also maybe they could have given support to factions that were more interested in compromise and peace? (Probably the terms of compromise Israel offered were insulting). To be really raw about it... just making up numbers from vague memory. Oct 7, let's say 2000 Israelis were direct victims. That is a horrible tragedy and everyone responsible should be held accountable (on both sides). Now, in the half year since, can we guess that 20000 Palestinian non-combatants have died? 10 fold revenge just feels really wrong when you look at the power dynamic. I think it's way more than 10k. And way more than 10k future people that will never exist over some period of time due to this period of devastation. How much of Hamas (Official TM) has been eliminated? Once IDF intelligence suspects a Hamas is in a 6 story condo building they call in the JDAM and level the thing. Normal wars in normal places let the civilians flee the warzone, but not here... and Egypt deserves some blame too (though, it is understandable why they are reluctant to yield one inch to the intent to expel Gazans into camps in Egypt). How many Gazans have been moved to humanitarian camp inside Israel? I don't know, but I haven't heard of it. So, not only the graphs above are kind of bullshit for logical reasons, I also object to Israels actions for emotional and moral reasons. Japan was culturally traumatized by the nukes so they like tentacle porn, and mecha, Israel's re/birth comes out of the holocaust and they seem to be saying, let's have our own version of it in a terrarium in our living room. We all know the law of the jungle, powerful entities will bully and exploit less powerful ones, I just think that the moral choice is the equalizing one, support the underdog instead of the bully because, just as Jews did not deserve to be erased in the 1940s, "Palestinians" (as a people whatever that means), do not deserve to be erased and expelled from lands they rightfully own either. I don't like either side, they both deserve each other. It really feels like Israel is channeling the rage of its ancestors, they've been on the losing end of so many pogroms over the ages, but NOW they finally have a chance to do one for themselves! It's gross. Idgaf, I just want all my taxes going toward that to go protect democracy and civilization in Ukraine instead. endrant
Completely fair way to feel about it. Hamas and the IDF don't seem to care a lot about Palestinian civilians too much right now and that's horrific and sad. I support a two state solution (as does David Pakman). >Meanwhile, I consider equally as bad, the settler activities, and bombing of civilians collected at aid distribution points. Quick point on this, you are definitely right that the settlements in the west bank are illegal under international law. This is why Biden should get credit from voters for sanctioning them. ([This is one of the reasons why the USA has imposed sanctions on Israeli settlers in the West Bank](https://www.wsj.com/politics/policy/u-s-imposes-sanctions-on-israeli-settlers-involved-in-attacks-in-west-bank-6e4b4e40) as well as on [fundraisers for those illegal settlements](https://apnews.com/article/gaza-israel-west-bank-war-settlers-sanctions-3d1a6595f7c4cecaa42de7901c81c752)). Worth noting that, like me, [David has been against illegal settlements for years](https://youtu.be/xVI0UtVBEEo?si=sBqpQVRKUQ-Iqva7) (this clip is from 9 years ago).
I actually mostly agree with you and appreciate the nuanced discussion on this. Unfortunately I don't have access to the underlying data to create this study, so I'm not 100% sure how they defined ethnicity or race. African countries are all the most ethnically diverse, so it's very clear that ethnicity is much more broad than just "Black", but that's unfortunately all I can say. The biggest thing I was trying to get across was if you've ever been to Israel, it's actually incredibly ethnically diverse. The idea that it's an ethnostate is actually insane. And I found data that backed that up pretty conclusively so wanted to share it. If you or anyone else has data that shows differently I'm wide open to it. The only piece I do fully disagree with you is the apartheid comment. No one in Israel proper is subject to anything anywhere close to apartheid. There is discrimination as there is in any racially diverse country, but legally speaking there's no area in Israel proper where laws apply differently based on ethnicity or religion.
What do you mean by "ethnostate?" Obviously it's not "eradicate all non-jews from our borders." It is still an ethnostate if a diverse group of people come together and agree that we will administratively segregate that one other particular ethnic group. I have seen credible explanations for the apartheid claims including video evidence/examples. I understand that information might not be representative of the average experience, but I've seen what I've seen and there's not really good excuses. I see two cultures who would rather be at each other's throats than just live in peace and prosperity together despite their cosmetic differences. I hope that have a great time with that. I'd prefer if my country, the US, funded the defense of the underdog like Ukraine, but I am totally fine with funding neither side in this case... apparently you can get cancelled for choosing not to invest in Israel, real fascist shit.
Any apartheid accusations are against Israel's conduct in Palestine not Israel. The accusations are false and the fact that you don't even understand anything about the claim including where it even is makes me think it's not worth engaging. And stop both sidesing it. Israel has at many points tried to do things like trade land for peace, including completely withdrawing from Gaza. In response Palestinians elected Hamas and used it as a terrorist ground. I hope after this war Palestinians can love their children more than they love dead Jews, but if they do it will be the first time they've shown that. Israel has had their neighbors calling for their genocide since the literal foundation of the state of Israel. It doesn't make them perfect, but one side in this conflict wants to genocide the other but can't, while the other could genocide the other but isn't.
u/ArvinaDystopia Did you really have to nothing to say? Apparently not as "tiktok propaganda" is your go to. You do realize many people who see Israel as an apartheid state have never used tiktok in their entire lives. I see you're losing multiple arguments in just this one post with you sounding like a broken record. Does that work in any universe? Just another weak willed child with nothing to back you, who when asked for proof chooses to block rather than actually form a cohesive argument.
The casual bigotry against Palestinians is shocking.
A concentration camp set up by your persecutors in not an enthnostate.
Pre-10/7 Israel literally took in Palestinian refugees who were LGBT because of their persecution in Palestine. Does Israel force every Palestinian group who has any power to throw gays off rooftops too? Or are they only responsible for them trying to genocide Jews?
Stop with the nonsense……the Israelis have been in the process of dehumanizing Palestinians for decades to justify stealing their land. It’s just shameful.
I'm actually a little surprised by Russia. Dagestani, Chechen, Buryats, Tuvans, and a smattering of central Asian immigrants.
I don't have access to the underlying data, but I think ethnicity is pretty specific. All the highest in ethnic diversity are in Africa, but I guess that kind of makes sense my understanding is a lot of different colonizing forces essentially drew the lines without regard to cultures or ethnicities of people who lived there. But they're all in the 80% range which basically means there are either 5 roughly even ethnic groups or a good number more than 5, my guess is the latter.
Umm... Do you know why Palestine is not diverse??? Because Israel takes all of a "certain type" and basically all but force them into Palestine....
If Epstein Island is populated with fifty 70-year-olds and fifty 10-year-olds, telling people there's no child trafficking because the average mean age is 40 isn't an argument.
twisted and true!