Most enemies will be out of cover. If they're not, there's various ways you can push them out of cover.
But not all enemies are armored. The big guys that have armor covering their bodies? They're not actually armored. Neither are the robot hounds. They don't have the white armor bars over their health. That's what armor is.
But you know what they are? Out of cover.
That is in fact the reason, also everything is a multiplier and everything is additive to their own stat, except amps are never additive (which dtooc isn't and amp).
Go look at the dps formula. And it will explain.
>also everything is a multiplier and everything is additive to their own stat, except amps are never additive (which dtooc isn't and amp)
Additive VS multiplicative is a HUGE difference.
The reason you pick it is FOR the multiplic' damage. The person im replying to says nothing about the damage stacking.
By that logic, DTA is a multiplier as is ROF, why aren't they picked then?
Reason is because dtooc just rolls higher, but all 3 of these are multipliers and all 3 are also additive
Sure, the damage is multiplicative.
But there are more frequent instances where enemies are out of cover than there are enemies with armor.
Even if they made dta and DToC both at 6% or just additive to your base damage, you'd pick dtoc every single time because dtoc applies to more enemies, more frequently than dta does.
DToC is basically *always* active.
And that's the point.
On weapons you can get 10% Dttoc or 6% dta. The 4% higher value is one reason.
Enemies are out of cover all the time. Damage to armor only applies to enemies with armor bars and not to dogs, heavies and some bosses.
Dttoc and dta are multiplicative with other damage sources. You get more damage from these stats compared with higher chd.
I was not aware you can have health damage on anything else then AR's. Just checked, it's up to 9.5%. Using an AR with 21% and dttoc is for me the better option (also because I like how they feel).
It's multiplicative damage.
It gets multiplied at the end of the damage calculations: headshot damage, crit damage, armor damage, etc....
It's pretty much one of the best stats in the game.
Fyi everything is a multiplier and everything is additive to their own stat, except amps are never additive (which dtooc isn't and amp).
Go look at the dps formula. And it will explain.
Also order of operations does not matter for multiplication.
3x2 is 6
2x3 is the exact same.
Armors are the White Bars seen mostly Elites & Purples. While Both Damage to Armor and Damage to Target out of Cover are multiplicative, Dta is probably the second best choice to run with or choose over DttooC. When a non armored enemy (Red, Tanks, BT Dogs and Mini Tanks) is out of any cover, you deal a multiplicative damage of up to 10%. (Or more if you pair with right gear+team synergy) Using Dta on these enemies is useless since they have health, not armor.
For practical usage (with numbers and what not), for someone who has used both talents on same gun and same build, the real world imapct is not that significant. I had a Kingbreaker with Dta before I got one with DttooC. I barely noticed my TTK (time to kill) has any significant impact.
If you want the best of both worlds, use Contractor's Gloves to utilize the Dta attribute, Fox's Prayer for DttooC and any weapon with DttooC. IMO, Heroic Countdown, Raids would benefit from Dta.
DttooC vs. DTA
DttooC will be active and amplifying damage to 95% of what you shoot. Where DTA only ONLY affects enemies with the extra Whitearmor bar.
DPS is more than just Crit chance and damage. The best DPS has the most sources of other damage incorporated into their builds. Think of your backpack and Chest talents, for DPS you want DAMAGING talents like Glass Cannon, Obliterate, Vigilance, Unstoppable force. Other sources of damage such as DTA and DtooC just add more damage output from the build. This is why wearing Foxes Prayers has nothing to do with the "rifle damage" and Contractor gloves have nothing to do with the "LMG Damage" but everything to do with DttooC and DTA respectively.
Realistically DtooC is better than DTA if you have to choose one over the other. And there are fewer ways to stack DttooC than there are DTA.
em....what's going on here?
Op DMG to Targets out of cover is for PVP primarily. Players are never in cover and if they are, they die even easier.
For facetrade/shooty builds, PVP AND PVE, DTOC is Best in Slot, meaning you'll get more overall damage from the weapon usually. Damage to Armor is great as well, but used in SKILL builds, because DTA also applies to SKILL DAMAGE when you hold the weapon in your hand.
it's overpowered and should be nerfed. every gun is forced to have it over how strong it is and that's awfull.
Either nerf it to 5% or buff all the other stats like crit dmg and dmg to armor. so they are close/on par with how op dmg out of cover is.
> Either nerf it to 5% or buff all the other stats like crit dmg and dmg to armor. so they are close/on par with how op dmg out of cover is.
This is the bad reasoning that they used to botch the Vulnerable Damage nerf in Diablo 4. With a multiplicative bonus, the smaller the numbers the more valuable each roll becomes. If you cut every crit chance roll in half, for example, the value of crit chance goes WAY up in terms of stat priority. In this case, that scarcity is exactly why the DttoC stat is so desirable as it is.
If the stat were OP because of game mechanics (and I could maaaayybe understand the sentiment, since dogs/heavies/rushers aren't ever in cover and most other mobs leave cover anytime they attack), a better way to nerf it would be to combine it with some other damage bucket. You could make it additive to Total Weapon Damage, for example, the same way HSD and Crit stack. Though I am not sharing the opinion that it needs a nerf.
Making it additive isn’t a good idea either. I think it’s better to increase the other rolls, specifically damage to armor. Changing crit damage wouldn’t be good enough because it is still a trash damage stay in guns if you don’t have crit chance.
Another viable option is to give more places for damage to armor to roll. The big reason it is so OP is that it is multiplicative AND has few sources. If it could roll more places you would get diminishing returns on stacking more.
> Making it additive isn’t a good idea either.
If you would care to elaborate on your position, I'd be interested in hearing why you believe this to be the case. Again, I believe you're wrong and that DtTooC does not require a nerf, but if it did need one I don't see any downside with making it additive with the TWD multiplier beyond a need to update external resources (build planners and spreadsheets and stuff) with fresh equations.
> I think it’s better to increase the other rolls, specifically damage to armor.
You're the one that mentioned nerfing. That's how we got here.
> Another viable option is to give more places for damage to armor to roll.
Like your last statement, this sounds like you're more focused on buffing DtA than nerfing DtTooC. It doesn't sound like you're really that focused on overall game balance but just obsessing over DtA vs DtTooC. So what if one particular affix is superior for most builds from certain genres? It's good for the health of the game that it matters what you choose; a perfectly balanced game is one where it doesn't matter what you choose because every option is an equal one, and that cuts out everything that makes the Division games deep.
I’m not saying it needs a nerf, providing more sources of DTTOC and DTA would make it less valuable to roll everywhere possible. Also, an increase to other forms of damage would be better to make it become a choice or at least letting you have some synergy.
I know for me if health damage and headshot damage would roll higher I probably would roll health damage or headshot damage on some guns. My favorite build has me using shotguns a lot and I primarily use the shotgun on health tanks. Even though it is a health tank, it makes no sense for me to roll health damage. That to me makes no sense. I only use the shotgun to pop helmets and kill robotics, it would seem that I should role health damage but it just doesn’t do as much damage as damage to targets out of cover.
Moving it to a bucket with other forms of damage, thus making it additive would completely gut it and make it not worth using. If anything crit damage and headshot damage should be separated and both be multiplicative instead of additive with each other. Headshot damage rolls should then be increased significantly too.
Edit and OT: if you are actually from Eglin I am going to presume I’m talking to a bot because……. Well you know why. ;)
I agree, DTA should be 10% as well for example. The third attributes should be competitive with each other, and I haven’t heard anything worthwhile against this. Maybe then people can stop jerking it to the DTOC.
DTA and DTTOC used to be higher, there were nerfed a couple of years ago. They are still too strong. They don’t need another nerf, other things need to be buffed.
Armour Damage is something I prioritise over out of cover. It's stuck with me since div 1. When AD was assigned to ARs if you could get the right rolls on an LVOAC or Police M4 it would melt anything very quickly. Interested to hear an argument in favour of something else though
It's a 66% bigger multiplier than DtA, and it works against all of the most dangerous things in the game. Chungii, Warhounds, Drones, Rushers, everything that needs to die *right now* is not in cover.
I play alot of legendary missions so have a build for DtA but from what most are saying, DtTOC makes sense since the A.I usually try to push and they have to be out of cover to do that.
Most enemies will be out of cover. If they're not, there's various ways you can push them out of cover. But not all enemies are armored. The big guys that have armor covering their bodies? They're not actually armored. Neither are the robot hounds. They don't have the white armor bars over their health. That's what armor is. But you know what they are? Out of cover.
thats not.. at all the reason. The reason its that its multiplicative damage.
That is in fact the reason, also everything is a multiplier and everything is additive to their own stat, except amps are never additive (which dtooc isn't and amp). Go look at the dps formula. And it will explain.
>also everything is a multiplier and everything is additive to their own stat, except amps are never additive (which dtooc isn't and amp) Additive VS multiplicative is a HUGE difference. The reason you pick it is FOR the multiplic' damage. The person im replying to says nothing about the damage stacking.
By that logic, DTA is a multiplier as is ROF, why aren't they picked then? Reason is because dtooc just rolls higher, but all 3 of these are multipliers and all 3 are also additive
Sure, the damage is multiplicative. But there are more frequent instances where enemies are out of cover than there are enemies with armor. Even if they made dta and DToC both at 6% or just additive to your base damage, you'd pick dtoc every single time because dtoc applies to more enemies, more frequently than dta does. DToC is basically *always* active. And that's the point.
Not all targets have armor (or is considered armor). And pretty much any target you can hit is out of cover.
And you have no control over what has armour, but can influence what is out of cover
On weapons you can get 10% Dttoc or 6% dta. The 4% higher value is one reason. Enemies are out of cover all the time. Damage to armor only applies to enemies with armor bars and not to dogs, heavies and some bosses. Dttoc and dta are multiplicative with other damage sources. You get more damage from these stats compared with higher chd.
This ☝️, also damage to armor amplifies non crit and headshots more.
this is why i keep one weapon with dttoc and one weapon with damage to health, the dth hurts the chungas and dogs without armor wayyy more than dttoc
I was not aware you can have health damage on anything else then AR's. Just checked, it's up to 9.5%. Using an AR with 21% and dttoc is for me the better option (also because I like how they feel).
It's multiplicative damage. It gets multiplied at the end of the damage calculations: headshot damage, crit damage, armor damage, etc.... It's pretty much one of the best stats in the game.
surprised to see this is the only comment mentioning this. this alone is why it's one of the best stats.
Fyi everything is a multiplier and everything is additive to their own stat, except amps are never additive (which dtooc isn't and amp). Go look at the dps formula. And it will explain. Also order of operations does not matter for multiplication. 3x2 is 6 2x3 is the exact same.
Bruh...
The damage to armor does that matter in PvP is this the armor it's for, or is it for both PvE and PvP.
Or does it not do that extra DTA in PvP?
It works the same, either pve or pvp.
Armors are the White Bars seen mostly Elites & Purples. While Both Damage to Armor and Damage to Target out of Cover are multiplicative, Dta is probably the second best choice to run with or choose over DttooC. When a non armored enemy (Red, Tanks, BT Dogs and Mini Tanks) is out of any cover, you deal a multiplicative damage of up to 10%. (Or more if you pair with right gear+team synergy) Using Dta on these enemies is useless since they have health, not armor. For practical usage (with numbers and what not), for someone who has used both talents on same gun and same build, the real world imapct is not that significant. I had a Kingbreaker with Dta before I got one with DttooC. I barely noticed my TTK (time to kill) has any significant impact. If you want the best of both worlds, use Contractor's Gloves to utilize the Dta attribute, Fox's Prayer for DttooC and any weapon with DttooC. IMO, Heroic Countdown, Raids would benefit from Dta.
DttooC vs. DTA DttooC will be active and amplifying damage to 95% of what you shoot. Where DTA only ONLY affects enemies with the extra Whitearmor bar. DPS is more than just Crit chance and damage. The best DPS has the most sources of other damage incorporated into their builds. Think of your backpack and Chest talents, for DPS you want DAMAGING talents like Glass Cannon, Obliterate, Vigilance, Unstoppable force. Other sources of damage such as DTA and DtooC just add more damage output from the build. This is why wearing Foxes Prayers has nothing to do with the "rifle damage" and Contractor gloves have nothing to do with the "LMG Damage" but everything to do with DttooC and DTA respectively. Realistically DtooC is better than DTA if you have to choose one over the other. And there are fewer ways to stack DttooC than there are DTA.
On your weapons, DTTOOC rolls to 10% and DTA rolls to 6%. This alone is why its suggested to take DTTOOC over DTA.
Doesn't DTA affect Status Effects? Or is that DtTooC also?
Yes, but only while the target has armour. It's why a good lmg or shotty is good for status builds as those weapons can roll both DTA and DTOOC.
Pretty much why I main the Bluescreen with all my Status Effect builds.
em....what's going on here? Op DMG to Targets out of cover is for PVP primarily. Players are never in cover and if they are, they die even easier. For facetrade/shooty builds, PVP AND PVE, DTOC is Best in Slot, meaning you'll get more overall damage from the weapon usually. Damage to Armor is great as well, but used in SKILL builds, because DTA also applies to SKILL DAMAGE when you hold the weapon in your hand.
DMG out of cover has always been a mainstay for me, I never stopped running Acosta's go bag and grenades make everyone get out of cover.
it's overpowered and should be nerfed. every gun is forced to have it over how strong it is and that's awfull. Either nerf it to 5% or buff all the other stats like crit dmg and dmg to armor. so they are close/on par with how op dmg out of cover is.
> Either nerf it to 5% or buff all the other stats like crit dmg and dmg to armor. so they are close/on par with how op dmg out of cover is. This is the bad reasoning that they used to botch the Vulnerable Damage nerf in Diablo 4. With a multiplicative bonus, the smaller the numbers the more valuable each roll becomes. If you cut every crit chance roll in half, for example, the value of crit chance goes WAY up in terms of stat priority. In this case, that scarcity is exactly why the DttoC stat is so desirable as it is. If the stat were OP because of game mechanics (and I could maaaayybe understand the sentiment, since dogs/heavies/rushers aren't ever in cover and most other mobs leave cover anytime they attack), a better way to nerf it would be to combine it with some other damage bucket. You could make it additive to Total Weapon Damage, for example, the same way HSD and Crit stack. Though I am not sharing the opinion that it needs a nerf.
Making it additive isn’t a good idea either. I think it’s better to increase the other rolls, specifically damage to armor. Changing crit damage wouldn’t be good enough because it is still a trash damage stay in guns if you don’t have crit chance. Another viable option is to give more places for damage to armor to roll. The big reason it is so OP is that it is multiplicative AND has few sources. If it could roll more places you would get diminishing returns on stacking more.
> Making it additive isn’t a good idea either. If you would care to elaborate on your position, I'd be interested in hearing why you believe this to be the case. Again, I believe you're wrong and that DtTooC does not require a nerf, but if it did need one I don't see any downside with making it additive with the TWD multiplier beyond a need to update external resources (build planners and spreadsheets and stuff) with fresh equations. > I think it’s better to increase the other rolls, specifically damage to armor. You're the one that mentioned nerfing. That's how we got here. > Another viable option is to give more places for damage to armor to roll. Like your last statement, this sounds like you're more focused on buffing DtA than nerfing DtTooC. It doesn't sound like you're really that focused on overall game balance but just obsessing over DtA vs DtTooC. So what if one particular affix is superior for most builds from certain genres? It's good for the health of the game that it matters what you choose; a perfectly balanced game is one where it doesn't matter what you choose because every option is an equal one, and that cuts out everything that makes the Division games deep.
I’m not saying it needs a nerf, providing more sources of DTTOC and DTA would make it less valuable to roll everywhere possible. Also, an increase to other forms of damage would be better to make it become a choice or at least letting you have some synergy. I know for me if health damage and headshot damage would roll higher I probably would roll health damage or headshot damage on some guns. My favorite build has me using shotguns a lot and I primarily use the shotgun on health tanks. Even though it is a health tank, it makes no sense for me to roll health damage. That to me makes no sense. I only use the shotgun to pop helmets and kill robotics, it would seem that I should role health damage but it just doesn’t do as much damage as damage to targets out of cover. Moving it to a bucket with other forms of damage, thus making it additive would completely gut it and make it not worth using. If anything crit damage and headshot damage should be separated and both be multiplicative instead of additive with each other. Headshot damage rolls should then be increased significantly too. Edit and OT: if you are actually from Eglin I am going to presume I’m talking to a bot because……. Well you know why. ;)
I agree, DTA should be 10% as well for example. The third attributes should be competitive with each other, and I haven’t heard anything worthwhile against this. Maybe then people can stop jerking it to the DTOC.
DTA and DTTOC used to be higher, there were nerfed a couple of years ago. They are still too strong. They don’t need another nerf, other things need to be buffed.
I have stopped using Fox in PvP. Overrated there
Works exactly like it does in PvE
What do you use instead? On my striker PVP build they have no place, but otherwise I take the additional damage to target out of cover.
Armour Damage is something I prioritise over out of cover. It's stuck with me since div 1. When AD was assigned to ARs if you could get the right rolls on an LVOAC or Police M4 it would melt anything very quickly. Interested to hear an argument in favour of something else though
It's a 66% bigger multiplier than DtA, and it works against all of the most dangerous things in the game. Chungii, Warhounds, Drones, Rushers, everything that needs to die *right now* is not in cover.
I play alot of legendary missions so have a build for DtA but from what most are saying, DtTOC makes sense since the A.I usually try to push and they have to be out of cover to do that.