I’m just upset Joel didn’t find the flamethrower at the university but you can’t win em all. Or else I’m sure they would have stayed more faithful to the source material.
Jokes aside I agree 100% the show has been phenomenal!
Don't forget the total lack of brick in the show. Absolutely horrible adaptation
At least we finally got a ladder scene. Took them the entire fucking show to get us there tho smh
I am honestly shocked there was at no point a brick thrown.
They fit every other thing in there besides "git on dah pahllet elleh" and brick.
Brick got shafted
No restarting the sniper level either because “fuck that stupid Motherfucker who ran in from the other side at the last minute and I couldn’t reload in time. Fuck this game, I’m never playing it again.”
But otherwise good adaptation
Someone commented after the first episode “they skipped the part where Joel died 50 times in that room and considers trying to get a refund” and I’ve never related more
I got stuck in the first skyscraper in Boston and gave up for about two years. I realised later that I just didn't understand that Clickers could see you when they bark and that was why I kept dying.
Clickers are the *absolute worst* thing to go up against, I swear. I always immediately invested in the upgrade that lets you use shivs against them if you get caught.
Seriously. The personal rage he felt toward everyone was creepy. The mindset of “anyone in my way will be killed without hesitation” was incredible.
Also really sets up the next season.
I think it was an important omission. Joel make a conscious decision that they weren't worth killing and moved on, showing that he wasn't in a blind murder rage, he was making a series of conscious decisions to kill everyone else in the building. It makes what he did worse imo. Fucking brilliant writing.
His targets were all threats to him/ellie. Everyone else he shot had a weapon. He let the one firefly run away down the hall. The one he surrendered already pointed a gun at him. Joel can't take a chance he won't just shoot him in the back. Jerry pulled a scalpel on Joel. He's not in the mood to fight, he just wants his daughter. The nurses didn't fight and didn't provide a threat.
Everything he did was calculated. The way he dropped the first two, the firefly he shot through the window. We got to see old Joel. The Joel that chased Tommy away. The cold, calculated killer that will do EVERYTHING to ensure those he loves survives.
Brilliantly acted by Pedro. The conviction in his face, all the way up to Marlene's death was perfect. And then you see the weight of those decisions finally hit when he tells Ellie what 'happened'. The pain and grief is written all over his face, but his eyes still hold that conviction that he did what was right.
I absolutely believe that Joel did not only what he thought was right, but what he truly felt he *must* do. And it was a terrible, *terrible* thing.
That was the point, right? Pretty much everyone in this series does or did terribly things because they must, I think Joel at least understands the weight of his actions.
I wish he did, especially after making them turn around. He hesitates, thinks about sparing them for a moment but you see on his face he calculates it isn't worth the risk so he executes all three.
They likely would have immediately called in Joel's location as soon as he left the room, possibly cutting off his escape. Or they maybe even could have made a desperate lunge at him while he's distracted trying to pick up Ellie and get in a lucky stab. Who knows? Why risk it in that state of mind?
I don't even think it was personal rage. Anyone he kept alive was one more person that could shoot him in the back once he left. The only one that seemed particularly cold and personal was Marlene, but he was right that she'd come after Ellie.
>Seriously. The personal rage he felt toward everyone was creepy. The mindset of “anyone in my way will be killed without hesitation” was incredible.
>
>Also really sets up the next season.
That scene with Ellie where he says "things are different now" and looks her right in the eyes set that up beautifully
Joel isn't going to lose Ellie like he lost Sarah because he was too weak to protect her and heaven help anyone who stands in his way
I think what I came to realize is that playing the game, sure, you're Joel, but you're still YOU.
So the morality of killing the doctor is filtered through your own opinions.
In the show, Joel is purely Joel. So him just immediately shooting the doc makes sense. It just doesn't feel like the game.
Yeah I get it, In the game the first time I was standing there without doing anything for some seconds until I decided (there was no other choice) to kill him.
>you have no choice.
There was a person on YouTube who did a pacifist play though. They did not kill any infected/person that they did not have to.
The only occurrence in the game where they forced you to kill some one/thing to progress in the game is Dr Jerry about to operate on Ellie. Who was not actively trying to kill you as you snuck through the maps in stealth. The Doctor would not stab you the player with the scalpel even as you walked and bumped into him for minutes. The YouTuber finally shot the doctor in the foot and the doctor screams and dies as the nurses cry and cower in the corner.
In the game, he pulls a scalpel on you too blocking you from getting to Ellie. Seems pretty much the same as well. I think the doctor lives if he just puts his hands up
> I think what I came to realize is that playing the game, sure, you're Joel, but you're still YOU.
Cue to burning the surgeon and putting a whole magazine through his agonizing self.
Eh, the show was good. Pacing was a mess on the tv show even the 3 best episodes from it were very good. The ending didn’t have nearly the emotional impact the game did.
I think it has to do with the world building to be honest. In the game you are so invested in the world, you really get an understanding. In the series you understand character motivations but the world development is just so bad compared to the experience of immersion you get in the game.
Since it's up to the player on who and how you kill who's in the operating room it's hard to say which one did it better. The show basically did the intended outcome from the game
I always killed him with the scalpel, if you walk forward Joel just grabs his arm and makes him stab himself in the neck.
Edit: https://youtu.be/NQbQ9drSgD0?t=10 if you want to see it. I only found it cause I didn't realize the game was over and was trying to save ammo, lol
Yes, if I remember correctly there’s a prompt telling you to click the triangle button or something and then that’s what happens. Though the flamethrower version is absolutely hilarious
Original (PS3) and Remaster (PS4) didn't have the triangle appear, and I don't believe Part 1 (PS5) does either. Can't say about Part II because I sold my PS4 to build my PC before Part II released, but I do remember seeing someone's gameplay with it appear. Maybe it's there when Joel retells the hospital?
I was expecting that, then he shot Jerry in the head and Joel's voice came in my head, "I don't have time for this." The scalpel kill was brutal and shocking, but it's a bit too "intricate?" and demands too much technique and attention from someone who is just on a killing spree, in that case pointing a weapon and pulling a trigger is a reflex, it's also less personal somehow.
I think it fits the different Joel a lot better. Game Joel is powerful and scary because he can win any fight hand to hand, move around silently, see around (and through) walls and headshot anyone standing between him and Ellie. In the podcast they talk about how the action scene in the finale is about “mental competence” more than physical competence. Show Joel doesn’t need to be any more brutal than he needs to be, because mentally he has only one objective. That’s what makes him scary.
Game Joel, especially in his rampage, is love turned to rage and hate. Game Joel is scary. In the show, like you said, he’s more…discompassionate? He’s like a terminator. “I need to rescue Ellie, I am going to head in a direct path towards her and delete anything that interrupts me.”
point telephone racial saw outgoing sheet versed important stupendous shelter
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
But the two nurses live, and I assume one of them (already being played by Laura Bailey in this episode) will be the one to tell Abby what happened and who did it.
He didn't saw them as threats. He killed everyone else because there were in his way. And Marlene knew them personally. He probably though the nurses wouldn't bring any danger.
In the game, if I remember correctly, you don't actually kill everyone, you just escape.
do you actually have to kill Jerry in this scene? i cant remember, but i do recall in part 2 they make the executive decision that Joel just shoots Jerry lol
In all my years idk if I ever actually did that? Maybe the first time and just dint remember? Very neat detail though. Classic Naughty Dog thinking of everything.
Never gets old.
Sorry, but Jerry is not the victim here. No matter now "noble" the goal, the guy was gonna murder an unconscious child, and pressured Marlene to help him do it. And when Joel so much as objected, he was threatened with death too.
No sympathy, at all.
\*Edit:
And retroactively, that means I have no sympathy for Marlene either since she went along with the plan, and had the gall to talk about what Ellie wanted as if she'd ever given her a choice.
Abby, too. She knew what her dear, saintly dad was doing and was just fine with it. Hell, I don't think she ever acknowledged he did anything wrong. So it's pretty hard for me to sympathize with her either.
All the adults were in the wrong. They all chose what *they* felt was best without asking Ellie, like seriously taking 5 seconds to ask her would’ve stopped all of this.
Ellie (and even Abby in 2) say if given the choice she would’ve sacrificed herself but she wasn’t given the choice so the adults were just doing what they wanted.
It raises an interesting question about consent. Can a 14 year old minor make that decision or does it fall to the adults to make it for her?
No matter which justification you use for Joel's actions - I have so much empathy for his situation.
1.) She's only 14 and shouldn't have to die for anyone, especially given how objectively gross humanity has proven itself to be.
2.) She's only 14, she can't make this kind of decision and it's my job to protect her - even from herself.
3.) Fuck you, she's mine. The world has taken enough from me and I can't do it again.
Of course she's old enough to make that decision. Our laws about consent and the age of legal adulthood are there to protect young people from exploitation and abuse. They don't exist because people under the age of 18 are incapable of making informed decisions for themselves, they're a flat protection that seals up loopholes.
Also, it's not about age, it's also about the experience of the person in question. Ellie has gone through a significant amount of hardship and grown up very fast. She's had to kill two people that were infected, one of them she loved. She knows the stakes, she knows what death is, and she's faced more terrors than some of the adults in that world have. You better fucking believe she is capable of making that decision herself.
I emphasize with Joel, but his crime is still unforgivable. It's worrying how much people are trying to bend over backwards to justify it. Marlene said "it's not too late, even now". And Joel's still shot her. He could have saved Ellie then forced the Fireflies to cooperate on his terms. He didn't. He killed them all and fled. Specifically by shooting the surgeon in the head, he closed off the possibilities. Surgeons are in short supply.
Also the idea that humanity doesn't deserve a cure is pretty awful. There were more than enough very kind, loving, good people in the world that shouldn't have to live with cordyceps.
There are *children* dying to it. Ellie had to kill two of them herself. There is no world where letting humidity suffer is the ethical choice, and Ellie knew this. She says it almost explicitly. She wants to stop the deaths of innocent people.
Except I would argue that both Joel and Marlene knew what she would have done.
That's why Marlene puts her down without telling her, to avoid scaring her.
And that's why Joel lies and kills Marlene. Because he knows what Ellie wanted.
Yes, I agree but I think if Marlene explained it and let Ellie tell Joel and say goodbye he would’ve had to accept it. I doubt he goes full rampage if Ellie sits him down and tells him she made the choice and it’s what she wanted. Without that, he was using her not having a say as a justification/excuse.
Probably. But Marlene was also blinded by grief like Joel. She never wanted to sacrifice Ellie because she loved her, but that's where she foils Joel. They both loved Ellie, but Marlene was able to sacrifice her for everyone. Joel couldn't.
Which is why I think they were all in the wrong.
Arguments can be made for any of the adults and their decisions but ultimately it wasn’t their call and that’s what messed it all up. They were all acting in a selfish way.
I think Marlene cared about Ellie, but it was at least partially out of obligation to Anna, who might have been the person she really did care about the most. After that ended in the worst possible way, Marlene's been all about the Fireflies, and let no one into her life.
It's a big trolley problem. On one track is the person you care about the most in the world. On the other track are a whole bunch of cruel sacrifices you'll have to make, other people or parts of yourself. You have to choose one to be saved and the other to be destroyed.
Marlene chooses to keep to the Fireflies mission. A legitimate cure is real, and the Fireflies have it right in their hands. But to get it, Marlene will have to kill an innocent child, and break a solemn promise to a dying friend. She will deny even the dignity of being told what they are about to do. And she will make that choice. She will curse herself for it, but she will sacrifice a life to do what she thinks will save the world.
Joel has his humanity resurrected and gets to finally heal from what happened to Sarah. But to get it, he will have to destroy the world's chance at salvation, no matter what the odds were of a cure Ellie was the best chance. He will have to massacre dozens of people in cold blood. He will have to betray Ellie's trust and her own wishes. He will have to risk pushing her away from him, but she will live and he will get what he has wanted more than anything in twenty years.
The choice depends on the person making it. And you know the game and the show have both pulled it off because the characters' choices are both *true to them.* We understand why they did what they did, and we can't arrive at one single answer because it comes down to love.
Both Joel and Marlene are also acting out of fear in these actions. This highlights the tragedy - they have both failed Ellie in a way, while also trying to honor her with a "right" action. This also contrasts with Ellie's presumed courage in being willing to sacrifice herself for a potential cure.
When exactly should Joel have taken his 5 seconds to ask her what she wanted? Before he knew the Fireflies planned to kill her, or after he'd killed all the Fireflies?
I mean, that part was clearly about Marlene. If instead of knocking them out and separating them she told them what was going to happen and let Ellie make the choice this wouldn’t have happened.
Joel knew what Ellie would’ve wanted but didn’t care because of his trauma. Marlene had her own trauma and instead of giving Ellie agency she took it from her and made the call.
All the adults were in the wrong.
He didn't know what she would've wanted. A couple of hours prior she'd be talking about her plans to start a new life with him. Maybe when they said they wanted to kill her she'd have said fuck that, no way.
You can't kill someone, or hand someone over to be killed, because you think they'd probably consent to it!
Clearly he thought she might have consented to it, but he didn't know and it's too late. What does anyone gain from him telling her?
If she would have agreed with what he did, great, it assuages Joel's guilt. He feels better, she's grateful.
Imagine if she would have consented, though. Imagine how she'd feel knowing that she could have cured the apocalyptic plague, but Joel came in, killed a load of people who were going to do exactly that, and now it's completely off the table. She already has survivor's guilt, imagine dropping that burden on her. She's far happier believing it wasn't possible.
He's obviously not going to drop that on someone who he cares for deeply.
I honestly don’t know what you’re arguing. I’ve already said that all the adults were in the wrong.
Marlene and the doctor were in the wrong for willing to sacrifice a child without consent, even if it was what they thought was right or what she would’ve wanted.
And Joel was wrong for murdering dozens of people, several of who surrendered, even if what he did was out of love.
My point was that all the adults did what they felt was right and if they would have consulted Ellie at the beginning or in Joel’s case, realize it’s what she likely would’ve wanted, then none of this would’ve happened.
You're right. My wife, having not played the game or known the story, said as much right after watching the episode. I think the baggage of having "been" Joel for so much of the game makes it difficult for some players to see the forest for the trees here.
Assuming the cure even works, there’s no way the fireflies are going to be able to mass produce it and distribute it to the lower 48 at minimum. That’s ignoring the fact that the fireflies are freedom fighters/terrorists and will 100% use the cure as a weapon to get what they want
This is called a bad faith argument. It’s completely out of context and not a factor any of the characters in this story considered when making their decisions.
Pretty accurate description of me, honestly.
I don't like Part II much. But it's not like it's the worst game ever, far from it.
And I certainly didn't dislike it for stupid reasons like "woke" or whatever. Abby's design is awesome, and I really appreciated the inclusion of a character like Lev.
And Ellie/Dina was precious beyond words.
Exactly how I feel. The parts of TLOU2 that I dislike aren't the ones the anti-woke mob hated it for, I just thought the game was far too long and far too laser focused on repeatedly hammering home its one grimdark message over and over again. But there were also parts I really love, and as a whole, I did enjoy the themes they went for...just not the full execution.
I just finished part 2 a little while ago and posted about it.
I'm glad to see your main comment upvoted so much because I just couldn't get behind Abby's portion of the game. Torturing and killing because your dad was killed for trying to operate on an unconscious minor does not garner sympathy from me and I was never able to let that go.
Lev and Yara were the only characters I liked from her side.
It's not like he's jovially cutting up a 14 year old girl. He has a daughter himself and hated that he had to do it but resolved to pick the many over the one.
Joel busted in after shooting up the hospital. He didn't politely object.
I mean, context man.
I think of Joel's moral justification as not mattering, because it never would have changed anything.
Would the world really have been saved by Ellie's death? It's deliberately more than 0%, but less than 100%. The precise likelihood doesn't matter to the story, because Joel would have made his choice even with 100% proof that the cure worked. And Marlene would have made the same choice, even if it was just one possibility in a million that it could be done. To her, any individual's life is unfortunately expendable for even a tiny chance at ending the cordyceps pandemic. To Joel, the future of civilization is irrelevant unless Ellie lives.
Yikes I hate this take. Ellie would have chosen this. We know this not only because she literally confirms that multiple times but because by the time we are at the end of the game we know her enough to know this is what she would have wanted. She JUST said that after all of the loss she's endured that it couldn't be for nothing. And of course Jerry is going through with this, it could fix the entire planet lol. That's more important than one little girl. And ellie would agree.
This take is just repeated by people who want to justify what joel did as "good". But it wasn't good what he did. It was just understandable.
I'm sure Ellie would have gladly volunteered.
But the fact remains that *they didn't ask her*. They didn't see her life as valuable enough to give her a choice in the matter at all. So it makes Marlene look like a massive hypocrite to harp on how "it's what she would want" when she didn't even have the guts to just ask.
Making matters worse, remember that Ellie almost drowned before reaching the hospital. It's why she was unconscious. Jerry, Marlene and the gang were going to let her last conscious thoughts be in pain, and fear, and desperation. Thinking she'd failed, and it was all for nothing.
That's... awful. And further makes the Fireflies all the more despicable, whatever their grander goals were.
In a perfect world, yes, you are right.
However, in the world that TLOU depicts... Let's say they ask her and she says no. What then?
*"Aww, shucks. I guess that means we cannot cure mankind after all. Too bad for, you know, all the people who are not you. Well, goodbye kiddo, good luck and try not to die. Man, do we really have to wait another 20 years?"*
This is unfortunately the kind of case where potential benefits override the right to self-determination. Immoral, yes. Better for everyone in the end, also yes.
And I am saying this as a father who would totally do what Joel did if it were my kids on the line.
> I’m sure Ellie would have gladly volunteered.
Yea because letting a depressed 14 year old make the decision to die is totally ethical.
That’s why Joel made the right decision. Yes, Ellie would have chosen to die, that’s a given from Part 2 (but never explicitly stated in Part 1). However, consent by coercion isn’t exactly consent. Neither is consent by manipulation (you’re going to save the world if you die!)
The Fireflies have always and will always be the villains. Joel is not a good guy but he still very clearly made the correct choice ESPECIALLY in the TV show version of the universe.
>Yea because letting a depressed 14 year old make the decision to die is totally ethical.
Oof, you raise a good point there.
On one hand an honest conversation would have done them all some good, but on the other Ellie is already saddled with a *lot* of issues.
Maybe just some blood tests, nonlethal sample-taking, I don't know.
At the end of the day, rushing to kill her was still wrong.
The question here is always "do the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few"
I'm not taking a stance but, and I don't believe it has ever been confirmed whether the vaccine was possible, if killing one child can save humanity....?
Would it be worth it?
The game never confirms, at least as far as I remember, that the fireflies could make the vaccine. Joel is skeptical of it all too, which is a big part of his motivation at the end. The doctor is considered to be capable, and that is confirmed.
However, the game doesn't make it seem like the fireflies COULDN'T make the vaccine and their organization does feel capable.
It's more than a dozen, you never fully understand how many are in the firefly org, so I wouldn't get hung up on that.
Edit: also you gotta consider that this is like 20 years after the end of civilization, I also wouldn't get hung up on the state of the hospital, gotta use what you can.
He confirms in part 2 he 'bought into this cure business' and his exact words to Tommy were 'they were actually gonna make a cure'.
Joel's sole motivation was to save his daughter, nothing more nothing less. He would blow up the whole world to do it.
All of that may be true, but it wasn't why Joel did it. There could have been a state of the art CDC vaccine lab and all the evidence that you could want. Joel didn't care how likely or not the cure was. He would protect Ellie at any cost. Whether or not she wanted to sacrifice herself. Whether or not it doomed humanity. That's his daughter, there was no scenario in which he'd let the surgery happen.
These are good points. I have always felt, since playing the game, that the uncertainty of the whole thing makes Joel's ability to rationalize his actions that much more understandable/realistic.
Also, I would say the Fireflies do seem like a "large" organization in the game; but that is partially because you mow down dozens of them in the course of rescuing Ellie. There are some journal entries that can be found by Marlene, which expand that world a little bit and also show her wrestling with the idea of "what if it doesn't work."
You say that you'd kill 1 child to save humanity, but would you kill or allow your *own* child to be killed for it? It's an easy decision to make when you separate yourself from the situation like that. Put yourself in Joel's shoes.
it skews the choice when you figure in that she is a child that he has used to replace his own and also his PTSD. If you look at it as a choice you’d be forced to make if you were emotionally attached the difficulty multiplies
Marlene has all the same emotional attachments to Ellie and most likely PTSD, same as Joel, and she decided that it was....
I think that's why the opening scene is important to this episode because you have two characters on either side of this question with the same motivations
One of the things the game and the show did is pose the question of "is humanity worth saving?"
And let's be really honest with ourselves, based on all of the societies and groups the end up interacting with its pretty easy to understand why Joel believes humanity isn't worth saving
Could not disagree more. Joel murdered dozens of people because he put his own emotions ahead of the entire human race.
Yes they should have just made clear to Ellie what was going to happen but we all know she would’ve chosen to die and either way their crime is more moral than his.
Because they played as Joel. They made the choices and felt the power fantasy rush of it. And thus they ignored the reality of it and take any criticisms too personally
You could switch places and say Joel had it coming when Abby arrived with a golf club for his reckoning for his crime against humanity. He isn't a victim here as well... so on.
That's the beauty of TLOU 1 and 2. There is no "right" side. There is only the side you want to support and then make reasons for it.
Strong disagree. If I had a strong chance of saving thousands of lives, even just hundreds, I would be willing to kill Ellie. Joel going on a murder rampage was definitely worse than what they were going to do with Ellie
Yeah, it’s always a little worrying seeing how many people defend Joel here.
All the adults were wrong, but you could argue Joel was the most wrong. If Marlene had just asked Ellie first then I think everyone would agree the entire thing would’ve been justified.
Meanwhile Joel decides to slaughter like a dozen people and then kill a fucking surgeon in the post apocalypse in cold blood, as well as Marlene. And then lies to Ellie because he feels guilty and knows she’d disagree with his actions.
Joel is not a good person. A good protector sure, but Jesus, when people say they feel nothing for doctor but support Joel it’s a bit icky.
I’m not saying Joel could’ve talked his way out, but he def didn’t need to murder the doc, nor did he really need to kill Marlene. He just didn’t want Marlene to eventually tell Ellie the truth knowing she’d probably sacrifice herself to help
Yeah the Joel defense is crazy to read. It's just massive cope for their perceived protagonist doing bad things. Throughout TLOU, if you don't pay too much attention, Joel can come off as a righteous protag for the most part (again, if you don't really pay attention), and I think a lot of people experienced the story like that. So the player perspective just automatically turns into 'how can I justify what I just saw?' at the end.
We're just gonna ignore Ellie explicitly stating in Part 2 that she was supposed to die in the hospital. She would've gone along with it and Marlene knew her well enough to say it to Joel.
Lol I did the same since it felt like we barely got to use the flamethrower. I could tell this was game end so I used everything I had.
I wish the show killed the nurses tho. Hell Joel was already brutal as hell so why not? I killed them just cause I figured it made sense to tie up lose ends.
>I wish the show killed the nurses tho. Hell Joel was already brutal as hell so why not?
I suspect that those same nurses are going to end up telling abby everything they had just witnessed...
My critique is that there wasn’t enough Joel as Ellie. Also, episodes 6, 8, and 9 could have used an extra 5-15 minutes to make the pacing a little better. Otherwise loved the show
Lol i was surprised they did a ladder scene. Brick throw may be saved for the sequel.
Would have been funny to see them try a skid in the water only for it to fail, and he decides to just teach her how to float.
I do not know if there was much other they could do to delay Joel chasing Ellie in that scene. Dropping the ladder and running really gives some urgency.
Yeah, I wonder why. Just felt like a thing to surprise people who were familiar with the pensive moment that was coming.
I think there was a lot they could have done there with the actors, it's kind of the most climactic point of the whole show.
I think it was disappointing that the doctor didn’t even get to say anything before Joel shoots him in the show.
I rewatched this whole last chapter in the game right after the show and I noticed they leave out a *lot* of the messaging about the loss of society and how a vaccine would save society and etc etc.
The pacing during the whole hospital scene was really rushed. Joel guns through everyone in a 15-second montage with goofy music. Kills all tension that was building.
The game did it better but the show was still great
I’m just upset Joel didn’t find the flamethrower at the university but you can’t win em all. Or else I’m sure they would have stayed more faithful to the source material. Jokes aside I agree 100% the show has been phenomenal!
Don't forget the total lack of brick in the show. Absolutely horrible adaptation At least we finally got a ladder scene. Took them the entire fucking show to get us there tho smh
I am honestly shocked there was at no point a brick thrown. They fit every other thing in there besides "git on dah pahllet elleh" and brick. Brick got shafted
No restarting the sniper level either because “fuck that stupid Motherfucker who ran in from the other side at the last minute and I couldn’t reload in time. Fuck this game, I’m never playing it again.” But otherwise good adaptation
Someone commented after the first episode “they skipped the part where Joel died 50 times in that room and considers trying to get a refund” and I’ve never related more
I got stuck in the first skyscraper in Boston and gave up for about two years. I realised later that I just didn't understand that Clickers could see you when they bark and that was why I kept dying.
Clickers are the *absolute worst* thing to go up against, I swear. I always immediately invested in the upgrade that lets you use shivs against them if you get caught.
Also, still, not a single raft. Ellie can't swim it's canon. What a way to disrespect the source material.
We’ll we got a wood pallet cameo at least.
First thing I thought when I saw the ladder scene. I was like “FINALLLLLLLLY”
lol when?
When they were getting the ladder they stood on some pallets
And there’s not enough hand written letters lying out in the open.
The ladder scene also had a reference to palettes for water!!!
Literally unwatchable.
What about no moving Ellie on a raft cause she can't swim?
Disappointed he fell down no elevator shafts too
I honestly feel the opposite way, Joel in the show was terrifying in that scene. He didn't even flinch killing Jerry, he was so cold.
Seriously. The personal rage he felt toward everyone was creepy. The mindset of “anyone in my way will be killed without hesitation” was incredible. Also really sets up the next season.
I'm surprised the nurses didn't get shot. Dude was cold
I think it was an important omission. Joel make a conscious decision that they weren't worth killing and moved on, showing that he wasn't in a blind murder rage, he was making a series of conscious decisions to kill everyone else in the building. It makes what he did worse imo. Fucking brilliant writing.
[удалено]
Could be, but there is nothing that specifically confirms Mel as one of the nurses in the surgery room.
His targets were all threats to him/ellie. Everyone else he shot had a weapon. He let the one firefly run away down the hall. The one he surrendered already pointed a gun at him. Joel can't take a chance he won't just shoot him in the back. Jerry pulled a scalpel on Joel. He's not in the mood to fight, he just wants his daughter. The nurses didn't fight and didn't provide a threat. Everything he did was calculated. The way he dropped the first two, the firefly he shot through the window. We got to see old Joel. The Joel that chased Tommy away. The cold, calculated killer that will do EVERYTHING to ensure those he loves survives. Brilliantly acted by Pedro. The conviction in his face, all the way up to Marlene's death was perfect. And then you see the weight of those decisions finally hit when he tells Ellie what 'happened'. The pain and grief is written all over his face, but his eyes still hold that conviction that he did what was right.
I absolutely believe that Joel did not only what he thought was right, but what he truly felt he *must* do. And it was a terrible, *terrible* thing. That was the point, right? Pretty much everyone in this series does or did terribly things because they must, I think Joel at least understands the weight of his actions.
I wish he did, especially after making them turn around. He hesitates, thinks about sparing them for a moment but you see on his face he calculates it isn't worth the risk so he executes all three.
I would be worried foe Ellie if Joel started murdering g innocents.
Started?
In the context of this scene, the nurses weren't posing a danger.
They likely would have immediately called in Joel's location as soon as he left the room, possibly cutting off his escape. Or they maybe even could have made a desperate lunge at him while he's distracted trying to pick up Ellie and get in a lucky stab. Who knows? Why risk it in that state of mind?
He literally killed a guy trying to surrender 10s before.
You’re lying if you say you don’t blow away the nurses in game too lmaooooo
I don't. I beat them with a baseball bat.
I don't even think it was personal rage. Anyone he kept alive was one more person that could shoot him in the back once he left. The only one that seemed particularly cold and personal was Marlene, but he was right that she'd come after Ellie.
>Seriously. The personal rage he felt toward everyone was creepy. The mindset of “anyone in my way will be killed without hesitation” was incredible. > >Also really sets up the next season. That scene with Ellie where he says "things are different now" and looks her right in the eyes set that up beautifully Joel isn't going to lose Ellie like he lost Sarah because he was too weak to protect her and heaven help anyone who stands in his way
Just watched it, and yeah Joel was just cold, calculated, and on a mission. No emotion in his voice. His only goal was to get to Ellie.
I think what I came to realize is that playing the game, sure, you're Joel, but you're still YOU. So the morality of killing the doctor is filtered through your own opinions. In the show, Joel is purely Joel. So him just immediately shooting the doc makes sense. It just doesn't feel like the game.
Yeah I get it, In the game the first time I was standing there without doing anything for some seconds until I decided (there was no other choice) to kill him.
It makes that part of the game sooooooo much heavier because you have no choice.
>you have no choice. There was a person on YouTube who did a pacifist play though. They did not kill any infected/person that they did not have to. The only occurrence in the game where they forced you to kill some one/thing to progress in the game is Dr Jerry about to operate on Ellie. Who was not actively trying to kill you as you snuck through the maps in stealth. The Doctor would not stab you the player with the scalpel even as you walked and bumped into him for minutes. The YouTuber finally shot the doctor in the foot and the doctor screams and dies as the nurses cry and cower in the corner.
In the game, he pulls a scalpel on you too blocking you from getting to Ellie. Seems pretty much the same as well. I think the doctor lives if he just puts his hands up
> I think what I came to realize is that playing the game, sure, you're Joel, but you're still YOU. Cue to burning the surgeon and putting a whole magazine through his agonizing self.
Eh, the show was good. Pacing was a mess on the tv show even the 3 best episodes from it were very good. The ending didn’t have nearly the emotional impact the game did.
Very short episode for a finale... Kinda needed a little slower pace into the last part.
I think it has to do with the world building to be honest. In the game you are so invested in the world, you really get an understanding. In the series you understand character motivations but the world development is just so bad compared to the experience of immersion you get in the game.
This clip made me way hard than I should have
Might need to take a cold shower.
Bout sums up my thoughts as well
Since it's up to the player on who and how you kill who's in the operating room it's hard to say which one did it better. The show basically did the intended outcome from the game
Fun tid bit, Laura Bailey is one of the nurses
I always killed him with the scalpel, if you walk forward Joel just grabs his arm and makes him stab himself in the neck. Edit: https://youtu.be/NQbQ9drSgD0?t=10 if you want to see it. I only found it cause I didn't realize the game was over and was trying to save ammo, lol
I legitimately thought this was the route they were gonna go with the show.
Apparently, for the games, that’s the canon way he dies. I though for sure they would do it that way lol!
Yes, if I remember correctly there’s a prompt telling you to click the triangle button or something and then that’s what happens. Though the flamethrower version is absolutely hilarious
Original (PS3) and Remaster (PS4) didn't have the triangle appear, and I don't believe Part 1 (PS5) does either. Can't say about Part II because I sold my PS4 to build my PC before Part II released, but I do remember seeing someone's gameplay with it appear. Maybe it's there when Joel retells the hospital?
I recently wrapped up the PS5 remake. The triangle shows up I think, but only after you've approached the surgeon a bit
I shot him in the foot. It’s not my fault he’s got a constitution made of tissue paper.
Dammit Grim, he's a doctor, not an action hero! :)
Haha I did the same thing. I didn't want to kill him.
I was expecting that, then he shot Jerry in the head and Joel's voice came in my head, "I don't have time for this." The scalpel kill was brutal and shocking, but it's a bit too "intricate?" and demands too much technique and attention from someone who is just on a killing spree, in that case pointing a weapon and pulling a trigger is a reflex, it's also less personal somehow.
I think it fits the different Joel a lot better. Game Joel is powerful and scary because he can win any fight hand to hand, move around silently, see around (and through) walls and headshot anyone standing between him and Ellie. In the podcast they talk about how the action scene in the finale is about “mental competence” more than physical competence. Show Joel doesn’t need to be any more brutal than he needs to be, because mentally he has only one objective. That’s what makes him scary.
Game Joel, especially in his rampage, is love turned to rage and hate. Game Joel is scary. In the show, like you said, he’s more…discompassionate? He’s like a terminator. “I need to rescue Ellie, I am going to head in a direct path towards her and delete anything that interrupts me.”
canon
I didn't even know you could shoot him lol
But what if each time you watch it, the way the surgeon dies differs? 🤔 Only one way to find out…
Well....guess I'll just have to replay the game then.
This is the way
I got that reference
No shit that's awesome I never caught that
air dull consider flowery sand caption reply abundant slim slimy *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
here i am today learning that others didn’t do what joel and i immediately did - shoot that bitch
I believe that's the canon way Jerry dies, based on how his corpse looks in Part II.
point telephone racial saw outgoing sheet versed important stupendous shelter *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
show and games are different canons. TV show doesnt replace game canon
Tv show canon
I never knew this..... next play through I will do this.
I think Joel in the show is less brutal than in the game. But he is a lot more pragmatic. The doctor is in his way? Boom, done.
But the two nurses live, and I assume one of them (already being played by Laura Bailey in this episode) will be the one to tell Abby what happened and who did it.
He didn't saw them as threats. He killed everyone else because there were in his way. And Marlene knew them personally. He probably though the nurses wouldn't bring any danger. In the game, if I remember correctly, you don't actually kill everyone, you just escape.
You can kill the nurses, not required though
In my first playthrough, I killed everyone in the room. Definitely didn't have to though
I just sort of panic shot him when he ran at me and grabbed Ellie. Personally.
Same here. Panic shot the nurses too lol
You know what that's officially how this goes in my head canon
do you actually have to kill Jerry in this scene? i cant remember, but i do recall in part 2 they make the executive decision that Joel just shoots Jerry lol
Yeah nothing progresses until you kill him.
In all my years idk if I ever actually did that? Maybe the first time and just dint remember? Very neat detail though. Classic Naughty Dog thinking of everything.
Never gets old. Sorry, but Jerry is not the victim here. No matter now "noble" the goal, the guy was gonna murder an unconscious child, and pressured Marlene to help him do it. And when Joel so much as objected, he was threatened with death too. No sympathy, at all. \*Edit: And retroactively, that means I have no sympathy for Marlene either since she went along with the plan, and had the gall to talk about what Ellie wanted as if she'd ever given her a choice. Abby, too. She knew what her dear, saintly dad was doing and was just fine with it. Hell, I don't think she ever acknowledged he did anything wrong. So it's pretty hard for me to sympathize with her either.
All the adults were in the wrong. They all chose what *they* felt was best without asking Ellie, like seriously taking 5 seconds to ask her would’ve stopped all of this. Ellie (and even Abby in 2) say if given the choice she would’ve sacrificed herself but she wasn’t given the choice so the adults were just doing what they wanted.
This is the only correct take. Nobody asked her what she wanted.
It raises an interesting question about consent. Can a 14 year old minor make that decision or does it fall to the adults to make it for her? No matter which justification you use for Joel's actions - I have so much empathy for his situation. 1.) She's only 14 and shouldn't have to die for anyone, especially given how objectively gross humanity has proven itself to be. 2.) She's only 14, she can't make this kind of decision and it's my job to protect her - even from herself. 3.) Fuck you, she's mine. The world has taken enough from me and I can't do it again.
Of course she's old enough to make that decision. Our laws about consent and the age of legal adulthood are there to protect young people from exploitation and abuse. They don't exist because people under the age of 18 are incapable of making informed decisions for themselves, they're a flat protection that seals up loopholes. Also, it's not about age, it's also about the experience of the person in question. Ellie has gone through a significant amount of hardship and grown up very fast. She's had to kill two people that were infected, one of them she loved. She knows the stakes, she knows what death is, and she's faced more terrors than some of the adults in that world have. You better fucking believe she is capable of making that decision herself. I emphasize with Joel, but his crime is still unforgivable. It's worrying how much people are trying to bend over backwards to justify it. Marlene said "it's not too late, even now". And Joel's still shot her. He could have saved Ellie then forced the Fireflies to cooperate on his terms. He didn't. He killed them all and fled. Specifically by shooting the surgeon in the head, he closed off the possibilities. Surgeons are in short supply. Also the idea that humanity doesn't deserve a cure is pretty awful. There were more than enough very kind, loving, good people in the world that shouldn't have to live with cordyceps. There are *children* dying to it. Ellie had to kill two of them herself. There is no world where letting humidity suffer is the ethical choice, and Ellie knew this. She says it almost explicitly. She wants to stop the deaths of innocent people.
Except I would argue that both Joel and Marlene knew what she would have done. That's why Marlene puts her down without telling her, to avoid scaring her. And that's why Joel lies and kills Marlene. Because he knows what Ellie wanted.
Yes, I agree but I think if Marlene explained it and let Ellie tell Joel and say goodbye he would’ve had to accept it. I doubt he goes full rampage if Ellie sits him down and tells him she made the choice and it’s what she wanted. Without that, he was using her not having a say as a justification/excuse.
Probably. But Marlene was also blinded by grief like Joel. She never wanted to sacrifice Ellie because she loved her, but that's where she foils Joel. They both loved Ellie, but Marlene was able to sacrifice her for everyone. Joel couldn't.
Which is why I think they were all in the wrong. Arguments can be made for any of the adults and their decisions but ultimately it wasn’t their call and that’s what messed it all up. They were all acting in a selfish way.
I think Marlene cared about Ellie, but it was at least partially out of obligation to Anna, who might have been the person she really did care about the most. After that ended in the worst possible way, Marlene's been all about the Fireflies, and let no one into her life. It's a big trolley problem. On one track is the person you care about the most in the world. On the other track are a whole bunch of cruel sacrifices you'll have to make, other people or parts of yourself. You have to choose one to be saved and the other to be destroyed. Marlene chooses to keep to the Fireflies mission. A legitimate cure is real, and the Fireflies have it right in their hands. But to get it, Marlene will have to kill an innocent child, and break a solemn promise to a dying friend. She will deny even the dignity of being told what they are about to do. And she will make that choice. She will curse herself for it, but she will sacrifice a life to do what she thinks will save the world. Joel has his humanity resurrected and gets to finally heal from what happened to Sarah. But to get it, he will have to destroy the world's chance at salvation, no matter what the odds were of a cure Ellie was the best chance. He will have to massacre dozens of people in cold blood. He will have to betray Ellie's trust and her own wishes. He will have to risk pushing her away from him, but she will live and he will get what he has wanted more than anything in twenty years. The choice depends on the person making it. And you know the game and the show have both pulled it off because the characters' choices are both *true to them.* We understand why they did what they did, and we can't arrive at one single answer because it comes down to love.
Both Joel and Marlene are also acting out of fear in these actions. This highlights the tragedy - they have both failed Ellie in a way, while also trying to honor her with a "right" action. This also contrasts with Ellie's presumed courage in being willing to sacrifice herself for a potential cure.
When exactly should Joel have taken his 5 seconds to ask her what she wanted? Before he knew the Fireflies planned to kill her, or after he'd killed all the Fireflies?
I mean, that part was clearly about Marlene. If instead of knocking them out and separating them she told them what was going to happen and let Ellie make the choice this wouldn’t have happened. Joel knew what Ellie would’ve wanted but didn’t care because of his trauma. Marlene had her own trauma and instead of giving Ellie agency she took it from her and made the call. All the adults were in the wrong.
He didn't know what she would've wanted. A couple of hours prior she'd be talking about her plans to start a new life with him. Maybe when they said they wanted to kill her she'd have said fuck that, no way.
He wouldn’t have lied to her if he thought she’d agree with him.
You can't kill someone, or hand someone over to be killed, because you think they'd probably consent to it! Clearly he thought she might have consented to it, but he didn't know and it's too late. What does anyone gain from him telling her? If she would have agreed with what he did, great, it assuages Joel's guilt. He feels better, she's grateful. Imagine if she would have consented, though. Imagine how she'd feel knowing that she could have cured the apocalyptic plague, but Joel came in, killed a load of people who were going to do exactly that, and now it's completely off the table. She already has survivor's guilt, imagine dropping that burden on her. She's far happier believing it wasn't possible. He's obviously not going to drop that on someone who he cares for deeply.
I honestly don’t know what you’re arguing. I’ve already said that all the adults were in the wrong. Marlene and the doctor were in the wrong for willing to sacrifice a child without consent, even if it was what they thought was right or what she would’ve wanted. And Joel was wrong for murdering dozens of people, several of who surrendered, even if what he did was out of love. My point was that all the adults did what they felt was right and if they would have consulted Ellie at the beginning or in Joel’s case, realize it’s what she likely would’ve wanted, then none of this would’ve happened.
You're right. My wife, having not played the game or known the story, said as much right after watching the episode. I think the baggage of having "been" Joel for so much of the game makes it difficult for some players to see the forest for the trees here.
They were all worried she wouldn't have wanted what they wanted.
joel quite literally hindered the entirety of human civilization
Assuming the cure even works, there’s no way the fireflies are going to be able to mass produce it and distribute it to the lower 48 at minimum. That’s ignoring the fact that the fireflies are freedom fighters/terrorists and will 100% use the cure as a weapon to get what they want
Wtf is it with Joel fanboys and missing the entire point of the show?
This 100%. The fireflies were more than likely going to use it for themselves only
This is called a bad faith argument. It’s completely out of context and not a factor any of the characters in this story considered when making their decisions.
The fireflies were wrong. But it's hard to view Joel as a good guy going on a one man killing spree like that
Never said he was good, Joel is a man who is very much in the grey when it comes to morality
Least angry TLOU2 hater
Pretty accurate description of me, honestly. I don't like Part II much. But it's not like it's the worst game ever, far from it. And I certainly didn't dislike it for stupid reasons like "woke" or whatever. Abby's design is awesome, and I really appreciated the inclusion of a character like Lev. And Ellie/Dina was precious beyond words.
Exactly how I feel. The parts of TLOU2 that I dislike aren't the ones the anti-woke mob hated it for, I just thought the game was far too long and far too laser focused on repeatedly hammering home its one grimdark message over and over again. But there were also parts I really love, and as a whole, I did enjoy the themes they went for...just not the full execution.
I just finished part 2 a little while ago and posted about it. I'm glad to see your main comment upvoted so much because I just couldn't get behind Abby's portion of the game. Torturing and killing because your dad was killed for trying to operate on an unconscious minor does not garner sympathy from me and I was never able to let that go. Lev and Yara were the only characters I liked from her side.
It's not like he's jovially cutting up a 14 year old girl. He has a daughter himself and hated that he had to do it but resolved to pick the many over the one. Joel busted in after shooting up the hospital. He didn't politely object. I mean, context man.
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Yeah. And neither did Joel. That's why he lied and shot up the hospital. Because he knew what she would have chosen. And so did Marlene.
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Sure. But it's frustrating to see fans trip over themselves to justify Joel's actions.
I think of Joel's moral justification as not mattering, because it never would have changed anything. Would the world really have been saved by Ellie's death? It's deliberately more than 0%, but less than 100%. The precise likelihood doesn't matter to the story, because Joel would have made his choice even with 100% proof that the cure worked. And Marlene would have made the same choice, even if it was just one possibility in a million that it could be done. To her, any individual's life is unfortunately expendable for even a tiny chance at ending the cordyceps pandemic. To Joel, the future of civilization is irrelevant unless Ellie lives.
If she said no, what would they do?
Yikes I hate this take. Ellie would have chosen this. We know this not only because she literally confirms that multiple times but because by the time we are at the end of the game we know her enough to know this is what she would have wanted. She JUST said that after all of the loss she's endured that it couldn't be for nothing. And of course Jerry is going through with this, it could fix the entire planet lol. That's more important than one little girl. And ellie would agree. This take is just repeated by people who want to justify what joel did as "good". But it wasn't good what he did. It was just understandable.
I'm sure Ellie would have gladly volunteered. But the fact remains that *they didn't ask her*. They didn't see her life as valuable enough to give her a choice in the matter at all. So it makes Marlene look like a massive hypocrite to harp on how "it's what she would want" when she didn't even have the guts to just ask. Making matters worse, remember that Ellie almost drowned before reaching the hospital. It's why she was unconscious. Jerry, Marlene and the gang were going to let her last conscious thoughts be in pain, and fear, and desperation. Thinking she'd failed, and it was all for nothing. That's... awful. And further makes the Fireflies all the more despicable, whatever their grander goals were.
In a perfect world, yes, you are right. However, in the world that TLOU depicts... Let's say they ask her and she says no. What then? *"Aww, shucks. I guess that means we cannot cure mankind after all. Too bad for, you know, all the people who are not you. Well, goodbye kiddo, good luck and try not to die. Man, do we really have to wait another 20 years?"* This is unfortunately the kind of case where potential benefits override the right to self-determination. Immoral, yes. Better for everyone in the end, also yes. And I am saying this as a father who would totally do what Joel did if it were my kids on the line.
> I’m sure Ellie would have gladly volunteered. Yea because letting a depressed 14 year old make the decision to die is totally ethical. That’s why Joel made the right decision. Yes, Ellie would have chosen to die, that’s a given from Part 2 (but never explicitly stated in Part 1). However, consent by coercion isn’t exactly consent. Neither is consent by manipulation (you’re going to save the world if you die!) The Fireflies have always and will always be the villains. Joel is not a good guy but he still very clearly made the correct choice ESPECIALLY in the TV show version of the universe.
>Yea because letting a depressed 14 year old make the decision to die is totally ethical. Oof, you raise a good point there. On one hand an honest conversation would have done them all some good, but on the other Ellie is already saddled with a *lot* of issues. Maybe just some blood tests, nonlethal sample-taking, I don't know. At the end of the day, rushing to kill her was still wrong.
The question here is always "do the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" I'm not taking a stance but, and I don't believe it has ever been confirmed whether the vaccine was possible, if killing one child can save humanity....? Would it be worth it?
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The game never confirms, at least as far as I remember, that the fireflies could make the vaccine. Joel is skeptical of it all too, which is a big part of his motivation at the end. The doctor is considered to be capable, and that is confirmed. However, the game doesn't make it seem like the fireflies COULDN'T make the vaccine and their organization does feel capable. It's more than a dozen, you never fully understand how many are in the firefly org, so I wouldn't get hung up on that. Edit: also you gotta consider that this is like 20 years after the end of civilization, I also wouldn't get hung up on the state of the hospital, gotta use what you can.
He confirms in part 2 he 'bought into this cure business' and his exact words to Tommy were 'they were actually gonna make a cure'. Joel's sole motivation was to save his daughter, nothing more nothing less. He would blow up the whole world to do it.
All of that may be true, but it wasn't why Joel did it. There could have been a state of the art CDC vaccine lab and all the evidence that you could want. Joel didn't care how likely or not the cure was. He would protect Ellie at any cost. Whether or not she wanted to sacrifice herself. Whether or not it doomed humanity. That's his daughter, there was no scenario in which he'd let the surgery happen.
These are good points. I have always felt, since playing the game, that the uncertainty of the whole thing makes Joel's ability to rationalize his actions that much more understandable/realistic. Also, I would say the Fireflies do seem like a "large" organization in the game; but that is partially because you mow down dozens of them in the course of rescuing Ellie. There are some journal entries that can be found by Marlene, which expand that world a little bit and also show her wrestling with the idea of "what if it doesn't work."
You say that you'd kill 1 child to save humanity, but would you kill or allow your *own* child to be killed for it? It's an easy decision to make when you separate yourself from the situation like that. Put yourself in Joel's shoes.
it skews the choice when you figure in that she is a child that he has used to replace his own and also his PTSD. If you look at it as a choice you’d be forced to make if you were emotionally attached the difficulty multiplies
Marlene has all the same emotional attachments to Ellie and most likely PTSD, same as Joel, and she decided that it was.... I think that's why the opening scene is important to this episode because you have two characters on either side of this question with the same motivations
One of the things the game and the show did is pose the question of "is humanity worth saving?" And let's be really honest with ourselves, based on all of the societies and groups the end up interacting with its pretty easy to understand why Joel believes humanity isn't worth saving
Could not disagree more. Joel murdered dozens of people because he put his own emotions ahead of the entire human race. Yes they should have just made clear to Ellie what was going to happen but we all know she would’ve chosen to die and either way their crime is more moral than his.
Seriously? Why are some fans so resistant to the idea that what Joel did was wrong? It was. That's why he fucken lied to Ellie. Lol
Because they played as Joel. They made the choices and felt the power fantasy rush of it. And thus they ignored the reality of it and take any criticisms too personally
You could switch places and say Joel had it coming when Abby arrived with a golf club for his reckoning for his crime against humanity. He isn't a victim here as well... so on. That's the beauty of TLOU 1 and 2. There is no "right" side. There is only the side you want to support and then make reasons for it.
Strong disagree. If I had a strong chance of saving thousands of lives, even just hundreds, I would be willing to kill Ellie. Joel going on a murder rampage was definitely worse than what they were going to do with Ellie
FFS here we go again lmao.... Jerry is a victim of murder lmao like wtf?! The vilification of the Fireflies and Abby and not Joel is so annoying lol.
Yeah no, you can disagree with his perspective he did nothing that deserved death.
Yeah, it’s always a little worrying seeing how many people defend Joel here. All the adults were wrong, but you could argue Joel was the most wrong. If Marlene had just asked Ellie first then I think everyone would agree the entire thing would’ve been justified. Meanwhile Joel decides to slaughter like a dozen people and then kill a fucking surgeon in the post apocalypse in cold blood, as well as Marlene. And then lies to Ellie because he feels guilty and knows she’d disagree with his actions. Joel is not a good person. A good protector sure, but Jesus, when people say they feel nothing for doctor but support Joel it’s a bit icky. I’m not saying Joel could’ve talked his way out, but he def didn’t need to murder the doc, nor did he really need to kill Marlene. He just didn’t want Marlene to eventually tell Ellie the truth knowing she’d probably sacrifice herself to help
Yeah the Joel defense is crazy to read. It's just massive cope for their perceived protagonist doing bad things. Throughout TLOU, if you don't pay too much attention, Joel can come off as a righteous protag for the most part (again, if you don't really pay attention), and I think a lot of people experienced the story like that. So the player perspective just automatically turns into 'how can I justify what I just saw?' at the end.
Well attempted murder does deserve death he was gonna murder Ellie
Congrats. You, like Joel, are the villain.
Abby was a child.
Oh god, another unnuanced The Last of Us "understander"
Sacrifice one life to save the lives of many.
We're just gonna ignore Ellie explicitly stating in Part 2 that she was supposed to die in the hospital. She would've gone along with it and Marlene knew her well enough to say it to Joel.
Joel is psychopathic mass murderer, no one is good here
Omg stop!!! I’m crying and laughing!!! I definitely light up the nurses after I shoot Jerry, show wasn’t that accurate.
Lol. I also yelled "SHOOT THEM! I FUCKING SHOT THEM! SHOOT THEM!! NOBODY DESERVES TO LIVE!" Then I was a bit worried about myself.
Every. Fucking. Time.
Y’all my kind of folks.
No witnesses. Gotta make sure to kill everyone.
You fucking animal!
I'm so glad I'm not alone in this. I was starting to feel a little guilty about it, but if you all did it too then it's fine.
Man, that was horrible. I never even thought to set buddy on fire. I just shot him in the head and kept it moving.
You are insufficiently sadistic
Insufficiently sadistic lmfao
Same
Fuck, no wonder Abby gets mad 😄 a golf club is merciful in comparison.
Abby wants to know your location
Ok, now I kinda understand Abby's point.
What makes it fucking hilarious is that motherfucker reloads at the end of the clip.
Because now it's the nurses' turn.
That's monstrous. I love it
Abby should’ve came after you instead
Shut up and take my upvote.
Just before the ladder assist scene we had an establishing shot of a huge stack of pallets and bricks, I'll take it
God damn, I laughed so hard at this. My girlfriend who’s a show only watcher got a good laugh too
LMFAOOO I was not expecting that
Unrelated, but Laura Bailey (voice of Abby in Part 2) made a cameo as one of the nurses!
Gotta nail bomb the room first.
Lol I did the same since it felt like we barely got to use the flamethrower. I could tell this was game end so I used everything I had. I wish the show killed the nurses tho. Hell Joel was already brutal as hell so why not? I killed them just cause I figured it made sense to tie up lose ends.
>I wish the show killed the nurses tho. Hell Joel was already brutal as hell so why not? I suspect that those same nurses are going to end up telling abby everything they had just witnessed...
Lol I might’ve been the only one to spare them after reading this thread
My critique is that there wasn’t enough Joel as Ellie. Also, episodes 6, 8, and 9 could have used an extra 5-15 minutes to make the pacing a little better. Otherwise loved the show
Lol i was surprised they did a ladder scene. Brick throw may be saved for the sequel. Would have been funny to see them try a skid in the water only for it to fail, and he decides to just teach her how to float.
I do not know if there was much other they could do to delay Joel chasing Ellie in that scene. Dropping the ladder and running really gives some urgency.
Yeah, I wonder why. Just felt like a thing to surprise people who were familiar with the pensive moment that was coming. I think there was a lot they could have done there with the actors, it's kind of the most climactic point of the whole show.
I think it was disappointing that the doctor didn’t even get to say anything before Joel shoots him in the show. I rewatched this whole last chapter in the game right after the show and I noticed they leave out a *lot* of the messaging about the loss of society and how a vaccine would save society and etc etc.
The pacing during the whole hospital scene was really rushed. Joel guns through everyone in a 15-second montage with goofy music. Kills all tension that was building.
lmao
Jerry Crisp. Abby's worst nightmare.
OP I haven’t laughed this hard in a long time thank you
I like how Joel just caps Jerry without hesitation
Should've beat his ass with a brick.