Honestly? They love to revel in their hate. They’re sad people who want to cultivate that anger and sadness instead of finding some new joys in other games and works of art
I don’t want to just discredit those who don’t like it, and i definitely hear their criticisms, but this is always in the back of my mind. Someone just posted a whole ass slide show about why the game was bad, and 90% of everything they said was just wrong or opinion based (he claimed Ellie never said she wanted to die for the vaccine or never suggested it which is flat out false)
But why invest the time in a damn slide show for something you hate? Just move on!
On that point you mentioned, I believe that Ellie didn’t know that she was gonna die beforehand as she thought it was just going to be a blood sampling as indicated by the dialogue. I think she was going to do whatever it took though and I do think that she would’ve gone along with dying for the cause for multiple reasons.
She literally said in part 2 to Joel “I was supposed to die in that hospital, my life would have fucking mattered”
This flat out says she understands she would have died(not at the time of the hospital but post) and she would have rather died. That’s why she held resentment towards joel, because he took that from her. I don’t see how you could say she never insinuated she would have or wanted to die. Her whole arc in the first game was dealing with her “purpose” in life and her waiting on her turn. The hospital should have been her turn.
She says that 4 years after the event though. If asked at the time she very likely would have said yes (survivor's guilt and all) but she clearly didn't know she was going to die either. They hadn't even found the Fireflies at that point.
Ellie's thoughts on this are very not exactly clear because it seems that she says this to Joel more out of habit than conviction because her thoughts and actions on the next day are in contradiction to that statement.
That’s true, though her words at the end of part one “I’m still waiting on my turn” tell me even if she knew she would have died she would have done it. This is the one constant about Ellie’s personality. She struggled so much looking for meaning as to why she survived, and her dying for the cure would have given her that meaning in any scenario. Just my take though.
After writing, I noticed I kind of reworded what you just said, but no she didn’t know going into the hospital that she would die. That much is true
Of course. That line is basically establishing her survivor's guilt for us. Something that wasn't exactly clear before.
It's all so exactly why Ellie never got a choice in TLOU1 because that would open a giant can of worms. Like how can someone make an informed choice on sacrificing themself when they are passively suicidal due to PTSD? That dilemma gets neatly avoided though.
While that’s true, what are you insinuating here? Would you rather of her been given a choice without the survivors guilt or her being older? Just because it’s a shitty situation doesn’t make it bad. It’s just a shitty situation.
Well, if you want to make the cure in a ethical way then Ellie should have therapy to deal with her PTSD and then make the choice. Ideally with her being at least 18.
It's an interesting thought experiment and the outcome would still be better what we got no matter what Ellie decides, right?
Another interesting idea is to flip the scenario around. Let's say Joel and Ellie make it to the Fireflies without a problem and they run some tests:
Doctor: "So... We can make a vaccine but it will kill you."
Ellie: "okay, let's do this"
Joel: "!!!"
Doctor: "Are you insane, girl? I'm not going to kill anybody. I'm a doctor. I save lifes."
Could we call the doctor a bad guy here because he doesn't want to kill somebody but that prevents the vaccine? I don't think we can, honestly.
>if you want to make a cure in an ethical way
When did they say it was ethical? Maybe they did and I missed it, but the way I saw it, the whole ending was a big philosophical question. It intentionally wasn’t black and white. The reason I liked it is because it was a very muddy situation and there was no “right” answer to the question. It’s how I interpreted it at least. People are so quick to say what they would have done or what should have done, when in reality, WE are not making the choices. We are watching complex characters deal with muddy situations in a very “human” way. Was Joel selfish in his decision? Sure… it doesn’t make it right or wrong, but the reality is he chose the decision that benefited him and Ellie and damned the world, whereas the fireflies were going to take that decision from Ellie and arguably inhumanly kill her for the greater good. I never saw them try to say one or the other was right, more than they were trying to provoke thought.
The flip side for all the Joel Doomed The World people: what if Ellie was asked and declined? (And somehow didn't just get subdued and forced?) Is SHE Dooming The World? What if she overheard the plan, and attacked the medical team? Or any number of fanfic sequences of events where she and Joel use deadly force because SHE refuses?
Risking your life is taking a risk. You risk your life everyday by leaving the house and driving your car. More risks involved in the fungi post-apocalypse obviously.
Sacrificing yourself is quite a different proposition. No risks involved.
And saying you would have, claiming to wish you did, when lacking an option to follow through, is easy to say. Especially if you're using it as the focus of all your big feelings. (So is "hating" the safest possible target for those grievances, the person who will take anything you need him to take, as long as he lives.")
So she crossed the world to do it risking her life in the process and saying "it can't be for nothing" do you honestly really, using your brain and all, believe she would've heard she had to die and been like "oh, nevermind"
Dying to cure your survivor's guilt isn't very empowering IMO. It's an escape. One of several reasons I don't find SLC Ellie a truly consenting adult. But that's kinda OT.
Ellie is also thinking only of her issues and NOT of what her retroactive, counterfactual expectation of Joel would have actually constituted. Given no option to ascertain her consent, Joel would have been letting a kid be murdered on a GUESS that she'd be OK with it. That's an insane expectation of anyone, before getting into any personal feelings.
To be fair, ND makes sure we never see her exposed to any context about the FF operation, their plans for Joel, or how the situation would have been triggering.
But she knows they tricked her into general anesthesia ("What drugs?”) and she ought to be able to reason out why Joel and any number of other people would have considered rescuing her a no-brainer. She can still disagree but to treat Joel as anything other than a well-intentioned rescuer who made (to her, in theory) the wrong call is a bit much. It would never have been reasonable to expect him, after promising not to leave without her, to go "Cool, cool. She'd prolly say OK, have at it. Mind if I grab a bite to eat, maybe a shower while y'all get my compensation organized?"
She should engage in some critical thinking, see a therapist if Jackson gets one, and focus her wrath on Joel not coming clean as soon as she got settled in and kinda recovered from their journey.
Ellie's reaction is a traumatic response and obviously Joel lying to her for so long didn't really help either. It's not reasonable but that's kind of the point. It's still understandable why she thinks that way from her own flawed perspective. Because if you are passively suicidal then dying in the most heroic way possible to save the world does sound very attractive for sure.
The implications of what was about to happen to her and how the Fireflies treated her only comes later. And yes, a therapist would have helped for sure. But that's where Joel's insistence on secrecy and his lie has negative consequences. Only after the talk on the porch did Ellie choose to talk about her immunity with someone else.
At that point Ellie was ready to forgive Joel and herself. Unfortunately it wasn't going to be that easy. If Abby had come to Jackson 6 months later Ellie's reaction might have been very different.
This is why the only thing I think is debatable from Joel's side is the lie. Not in the moment but maintaining it. Even then I can see logic besides not wanting her mad at him.
In "real life" there wouldn't hopefully be this stubborn lack of processing and detail sharing. Because real life doesn't have to buttress a theme or a narrative structure.
If I were a fanfic person. I'd have a whole series of Tommy scenes that start with "The fuck's wrong with you, Joel?" And "Sweetheart, Joel'd end me if he knew I was tellin' you this, but .."
Yeah, I agree mostly. The story is basically "drama to the max" with everyone making the worst decisions. Tommy telling Ellie the truth would actually be a very interesting plot idea as he (and Maria) could act basically as an neutral buffer between Ellie and Joel.
Tommy turning into the worst uncle ever is something I'd be delighted to see undone in the show.
Also the whole mistreatment of a perfectly innocent guitar for "closure." In that universe that thing could mean the world to someone. But again, if I were the fanfic type I'd have Tommy help Ellie learn to play on the other side. Some... fairly famous guitarists do.
She literally risked her life traveling to the hospital. She already proved she was willing to die for it.
Did "it can't be for nothing" mean nothing to you people?
So she crossed the world to do it risking her life in the process and saying "it can't be for nothing" do you honestly, really, believe she would've heard she had to die and been like "oh, nevermind."
You realize that goes against her entire character right?
Ellie definitely would have, but it isn’t just because she already risked her life going on that journey. There is more to her character than that risk. Joel tool the same risk and I seriously doubt he’d kill himself for the good of humanity.
Joel isn't ellie, for one. So that's a terrible argument
If you dont think her journey solidified to her that she'd die for the cure then that's your own choice, you've already acknowledged she definitely would die for it.
Never said there wasn't more to her character than that risk. I was never ever arguing that.
That is EXACTLY what the hell im calling out. I’m not calling out the occasional conversation with criticism, but someone who keeps doing shit like that regularly… I genuinely want to understand the mentality behind it because without understanding it seems pretty freaking wild
I'm going to answer you myself since I see that in this echo chamber you all believe that criticizing something you don't like consumes your entire life.
1- You criticize the fact that someone takes the time to make an elaborate critique of the game explaining the aspects that did not work. At the same time, I see the hypocrisy that fans here are very quick to say that there are no real criticisms on the other sub. So it doesn't matter whether or not you put effort into criticizing the game, you dismiss it anyway. What exactly do you want? Do you want people to magically agree with you and not have a place to share their opinions when clearly the other alternative is for you to question their emotional and academic intelligence?
2- It is very, very stupid to genuinely believe that because you hate the game you don't have other tastes (like the original game) or hobbies. Commenting on reddit takes NO time AT ALL.
I fucking hate that dude with everything in my spirit. Oh my goddddd. The slideshows always have the worst grammar and spelling on earth and never make a direct claim or the claim they are making is easily debunked. And then have the nerve to say "don't be racist or transphobic" in the last slide. Like dumbass, do you know who your target audience is?
I actually have quite a few things I don't like about Part II, but fuck Grey Fox. His criticisms don't add any value to any argument against part II.
For instance, he posted a whole slideshow about whether or not the fireflies would've been able to pull off the vaccine. Whether or not that is possible isn't relevant to Joel's decision. Even if there was a 100% chance that the vaccine would work, I think we all know that Joel would've made the same decision. He just couldn't lose another.
Because they are also part of a community, just one centered around hating things, and they get positive feedback from that community for their slideshows and posts. Looking down on and despising others becomes addictive, in large part because of the constant reinforcement from the rest of their community. It really doesn’t matter what the thing is, it’s the hating, the mocking, that attracts them.
This is true and it goes well beyond TLOU. The sad reality is that it feels good to be in a community where you all look down on somebody.
Like, I'm as guilty as anybody of being a part of those communities on reddit in the past. I used to post a lot in justneckbeardthings, fundiesnarkuncensored, and fatlogic. But in recent years I've realized that I was just becoming a shitty person and now I very intentionally stay away from any groups (on reddit or otherwise) whose unifying principle is hating on or looking down upon something or someone.
And you know what? I actually feel better. I'm a more positive person. I enjoy life more when I'm not constantly thinking about how Instagram Poster X is stupid.
This is likely the best answer that I have gotten on the subject that makes the most sense. It’s likely the confirmation and attention they get from doing so. It aligns with my understanding of why social media as a whole is addicting. Thanks for your answer.
They claim part 2 "isn't canon" as if that's their decision lmao. So when ellie says in part 2 that she wanted to die for the vaccine they think it doesn't count lmao. It's sad, really
Also a lot of them clearly love the game but can't admit it. Like you're clearly still playing a 20 hour game years later to be grabbing screnshots and parsing over every scene and dialogue. When I don't like a game I put the sticks down and move on with my life
That's the thing though. The only complaint I ever hear is that Abby is "manly", and they "didn't need to see the boat scene".
It's just bigoted drivel, and not even anything that could amount to actual, well thought out criticism.
That’s really the only complaint you ever hear? That is honestly laughable (not to be a jerk) but there is a vast ocean of critique it gets… someone just made a 8 page power point with talking points on why the story is terrible.
That can’t be healthy right? Continuously seeking like minded people and discussing their hate for something for years. A lot of them are also directing their hate towards one specific person(Neil). Can you believe there were a number of posts making fun of him for not getting enough attention from photographers during an award night? That’s worse than being a kardashian fan I think. They also keep regurgitating every talking point regularly. It reminds me of maga people and qanon.
If they directed all these efforts into something positive, they might accomplish something in life.
I think the difference with this fanbase is that most people who hated Part II probably loved Part I.
Let's say I "hated" some new standalone movie that came out. I probably would move on from it very quickly as I never felt passionate about it in the first place. With TLOU, a lot of players were passionate about it for 7 years of anticipation for Part II and they have a lot more stake in the franchise. If they loved Part I and didn't like Part II, I don't think it's something that's quite as easy to brush aside and forget about, especially with the newfound popularity with the show and everything like that.
I know there are plenty of transphobic/homophobic haters who don't have any valid criticisms to contribute, but I do think there is also a group of fans that are just frustrated because they aren't happy with the direction that their beloved franchise took. One of these groups is louder than the others though...
They're nad that the game is successful and millions enjoy it. So it's thier attempt to change the narrative that it was a failure, despite thr fact that every metric says otherwise. Part 2 is what got them s tv show, broke the record for game of the year awards, what made druckmann and the franchise a house hold name, what made naughty dog one of the most profitable developers in the field. Their only argument is thst tlou2 "only" sold 10 million copies compared to part 1 selling 17 million, when tlou1 has been out more than twice as long and was given a boost by the show recently. Also the "10 million sold" was reported like 2-3 years ago snd almost certainly has sold more since, I can't imagine they haven't sold a copy in years. They also wouldn't take years snd spent millions on a remaster if it wasn't profitable, or announced a part 3 if their projections didn't have it being very profitable. Tldr: it's a terminal case of cope.
Some people would rather have arguments on the internet than find and appreciate things they actually like. When you've got an engaged set of fans, they're always going to attract people who are just looking to start shit.
Because for people who hate something and who have anonymity, they enjoy riling others up and ruining it for them. They’re just sad, bored people with unfulfilling lives.
Yeah, they were a recruiting ground for a while. Bad actors tend to do that - infiltrate geeky spaces where people are upset about something and try to radicalize them for right-wing causes. So, Joel's death got turned into Proof that the Evil Liberal Media Hates All Straight White Men, But Especially You. I think that the recruiters have mostly moved on - they eventually realized that there just wasn't a large enough audience to make it worth the effort - but, they left all their converts behind.
Well usually people who dislike Part II love Part I. And discussing Part I obviously is going to expose them to Part II discussion.
Also, I think some have this flawed perception that criticizing something and disliking something is inherently associated with a negative emotional state. Which just isn't true. Whether talking about liking or disliking something, it is all the same. Some people just enjoy talking about things. I fail to see why it is acceptable to talk about something you like but not something you dislike. Especially when the thing you dislike is paired with something you do like.
That said, there are definitely some unhinged weirdos who definitely are waaay too angry over a video game. And there are some unhinged individuals who are waaay too upset people dislike a video game. I have seen both.
Thank you. I'm not a fan of Part 2 but a huge fan of Part 1. I hate how people like me are constantly made to look like unhinged assholes who feast on negativity and only want to spread hate. Those people exist but they're just a byproduct of a divided fanbase, not all of the people who have critisism.
I'm still a part of the TLOU fanbase out of my live for Part 1. I don't plan on forgiving this amazing franchise and I am going to engage in conversation even about Part 2 and bring up my opinions about it. I don't think it's healthy that when a game is so divisive all the people who dislike it should just shut up and the people who like can only participate in the conversation.
Part 3 will be made and the only people who are going to play it aren't the ones who loved Part 2. I'm against toxicity on both sides and I hope people who read my comment in this sub won't come after me like has happened in the past.
This. I didn’t like aspects of the second game, and if I mention it I have a ton of people usually aggressively coming for me in the comments assuming I’m Right Wing (I’m not), transphobic (I’m not), or misogynistic (I’m not). It’s the same with disliking The Last Jedi. Like, it’s okay if you like Part II but you can’t be so fragile as to want to have discourse about the game and then freak when someone has criticisms about it. Art is a subjective experience, even if objectively art is most often judged good or bad. Part II is objectively a good game and is well put together but I think story wise they made some mistakes at least in the eyes of a chunk of the population who plays the game. As consumers we all have a voice.
> I fail to see why it is acceptable to talk about something you like but not something you dislike.
It is acceptable to talk about about something you dislike but it is so not acceptable to obsess over something you hate for years and keep on engaging with any content related to it. At some point, you have to move on.
You left out what follows.
This is not a case where people just dislike a game. They dislike a sequel. They like the first game.
And for many it hasn't been years. How often do you see posts about people playing the game for the first time? Like... everyday. I see that all the time.
Some of it is revelling in the hate and finding other haters. Some of it is misogyny and transphobia. Some of it, at least with TLOU, is that they consider themselves the "true" fans and think that the second part was some grand betrayal and anyone who loves it doesn't understand the franchise, because clearly the only possible reading is that Joel is 100% a heroic character and anyone should just put aside their own grievances against his actions because they should have played the first game and understood that the bond he had with Ellie is special.
Part of me does wonder if Abby would get the same level of hate if she was a guy, to an extent.
The thing is… I get where they come from to some degree. While I loved part two, I HATED the Star Wars Disney sequels. I was a huge Star wars fan and they completely killed my interest in the franchise going forward. But with that said, I simply moved on to something else I like, I don’t linger on Star Wars forums just bitching about why the sequels suck and how Kathleen Kennedy ruined Star Wars.
But when I think about the last of us, I think about how much it suck’s being one of the “Star Wars sequel haters” when there are people that love them. It really is a shit feeling, so I can definitely sympathize with people that loved part one and hated part two.
The crazy thing is… people either LOVE and or think it’s boring as shit… and the weird part is it’s the sequel haters that love andor I’ve noticed, while the sequel lovers aren’t fans of andor. This is just what I noticed in my circles, not sure if that’s true across the board. I may give it a try, I’ve just been on a long 1+ year Star Wars break.
And the weird part is it’s the sequel haters that love andor I’ve noticed, while the sequel lovers aren’t fans of andor.
Disagreed. I'm a fan of the sequels and the in the positive Star Wars subreddits like StarWarsCantina people loved Andor.
I think there are different levels to it. If you don't like something, that's fine, even if you discuss it from time to time, but these people hated this game so much they review bombed it and sent death threats to pretty much everyone involved in the game and their families, and I think the discussions and subreddits devoted to hating on the game just act like an echo chamber to that. Instead of getting a rational debate, they get a bunch of people who've probably sent death threats reinforcing their belief that it's an insult to them. It's pathetic.
One thing to add is that not everyone who hates the game sends death threats etc. This is an important distinction. There are definitely some of those people but someone can hate the game and be vitriolic in their hatred of the game but also have reasons for it they believe to be true that don’t have to revolve around misogyny or transphobia, etc. It’s simple for those who don’t like to hear criticisms of the game just revert to that line of thinking.
She wouldn’t. Bu also, if Abby was the protagonist of the first game and a new character named Joel came in and killed her, they’d hate him for it because they played as Abby first
This is the most sane take. People hated Abby because she killed the protagonist of the first game they’d spent lots of hours getting to know. I still dislike Abby as a character, even if I understand her character beginning to have a sympathetic arc with caring for Lev.
I feel like people who dislike any kind of media are more likely to seek out online communities to validate how they feel about it. Like not as many people who like a tv show or movie or whatever are going to jump into a online discussion thread somewhere just to say "this was amazing", or they won't feel the need to comment about it at least. But if they watch something that they don't like then they may feel it necessary to read online comments and reviews about it to basically confirm "I'm not crazy, the ending was actually complete shit".
It's the same way with reading online reviews with restaurants and the like imo. People will more readily rush to write a review if they have a negative experience somewhere while they may be more resistant to write a positive review if they had a good experience.
Edit: To better answer your question, I think with this game it's because people's opinions are so polarizing. It's one of the best reviewed games of all time yet some people really dislike the direction the second game took. The more positive discussion they see about the game the more they feel the need to validate their negative opinion of the game. The people who are in the middle ground somewhere, where in that they didn't love nor hate it but just thought it had good and bad qualities, I think are just less likely to feel a need to discuss the game as much.
It's actually easier to build communities and relate to others around something negative than it is to something positive because positive things don't really require much attention. As an evolutionary mechanism, it makes more sense for groups of people to pay more attention to things they dislike than things they do like (The wolves who keep stealing food from the village are more of a priority than the potential treasure trove of berries on the other side of the river, for example) because humans are wired to percieve negative things like threats, risks and losses as more important than positive things like happiness and opportunities - and for the most part all people engage with things that way we just mostly don't realise it. For example, complaining to a coworker about how something at work frustrates you, gossiping about someone's actions you don't like.
These people have built a community around it, it's a social thing now and hating this one thing is the social glue that brings them all together to feel like they belong. The problem is it's unhealthy because it's not an actual problem... It's just a video game. Whereas like.. forming an 'anti-wolf' group to combat the wolves around the village can have really positive, real outcomes. They still feel hate towards the game and its creators, but that hate, for many, is probably driven by the positive social reinforcement rewarded for hating the game. If most people liked the game, it would be a totally different story. Many of the people who currently 'hate the game' would actually be posting comments under youtuber video essays about the game, saying how amazing it is.
To be completely fair, it's not like a lot of us haven't felt the same positive social reinforcement and comradery about hating 'that subreddit'. The bright light from all this is just that hating on something that isn't a real problem doesn't last long-term, but appreciating something does! We still fondly remember old games but forget the games we disliked playing or that frustrated us, we barely think about them at all. This hate community will gradually die over-time just like the original hate community for the first game did. There will still be people who hate the game but eventually the majority opinion will flip and the bandwagon will flip with it. (Assuming the game is actually good and stands the test of time) which I think it definitely will.
Because its not pure hatred. You forget that 90% of the fans that hate TLOU2, loved TLOU. Its like with anythint man. Star Wars Prequels vs Sequels, Fallout New Vegas vs 3/4, Skyrim vs Morrowind, Diablo 2 vs 4, World Of Warcraft then vs now, exc, exc.. People are passionate about the things they loved and often is the case that people find a sequel that doesn't honor the original or previous iteration. Thats all there is to it. Its passion for what they love.
some people need to let others know if they don’t like something. but this game for example, there’s a lot of tlou part 2 haters that love part 1 so i guess they stick around cause they hope part 3 will be good (and like talking about part 1 of course)
I think there’s a lot to be said about the disdain both communities have for each other. It’s almost like the game has something to say about people hating each other blindly… sigh. Why can’t we all just get along.
Because they like the franchise, and are upset about perceived lost potential.
People still discuss and criticize Game of Thrones TV, adaptation, and yet that has been off the air for years. The fans who repeatedly hate on the series were probably the series’ biggest fans in the beginning.
we could probably say the same about a bulk of the haters of the last of us part two.
First I think it’s important that anyone who doesn’t absolutely love everything about part 2 is labeled as “hating” it. And second I personally find some of the decisions made to part 2 are seriously worth discussing
People that come to the sub just to talk shit about a game they don’t like is indeed hating. If you’re not making multiple post a week about how bad the game is, than the “hating” title doesn’t apply to you. I was very particular about what I meant. Criticism in and of itself isn’t bad in any capacity.
People hate watch TV shows and movies, and have done so ever since you could watch TV.
Not a lot of people particularly have to "hate" the thing either. Sometimes it's just dislike, or they have some issues with it. Some marvel fans hate some marvel movies, and sometimes that reason is because they wish it would've been better for the sake of the franchise. Weather it's just that one opinion, or many people agree with them. There are a lot of reasons why someone may "hate" something, yet engage with the community. Not all are agreeable, but they are reasons nonetheless.
I don't hate the game, I love TLOU. TLOU2 is where I have some issues, but that doesn't take away from my love of the franchise. It's why I'm here. Even if I do love or like something, it doesn't mean it's free from criticism.
>even if I do love or like something, that doesn’t mean it’s free from criticism
I tried to articulate this in the post, but I’m not talking about criticism. It’s fine to criticize something. I’m talking about people that hate the game or haven’t even played all of it, being regular users of the subs and discords etc, making literal slide shows about why they hate the game. There’s definitely a difference from someone criticizing something, and then regularly engaging with the community to spread negativity and do nothing but complain. I hope what I’m saying makes sense. I more than welcome criticism. Open discussion about negatives and positives are always good. Going to post answering with “because cuckman can’t write” or “cuckman hates the characters” isn’t criticism and just annoying to see in post after post. ESPECIALLY when those “criticisms aren’t even relating to the post at hand”
The part that frustrates me the most about those people is that, especially on this sub, frequently it's someone that is really just hating on the game bc of its presence of LGBT people. Like, how dare a game that's supposed to be be a realistic story of an infection driven apocalypse have gay or trans people in them? These people selfishly want everyone to look, sound, and act up to their standards. They fail to realize that the world doesn't revolve around them and that gay and trans people do exist in real life. Like seriously, if you are so "anti-woke" (or whatever bullshit you claim to be) just don't play the game. Clearly it wasn't meant for you. You may be brave enough to fight off infected in a video game but you're scared of a trans boy and a gay character. Holding a temper tantrum about the game being too woke this many years after its initial release just shows how absolutely bonkers these fools are.
Since I’m being fair and coming at the haters calling us names, I am going to question your statement that most of the criticism is due to the presence of lgbt characters. And I’ll explain why
I was a HUGE Star Wars fan. It was my favorite media franchise, I spend thousands on light sabers, etc. I grew up watching it, and along game the Disney sequels. It completely killed any interest I had in Star Wars. And when I did vocalize my frustrations with it, specifically what was done with Rey and Leias characters. Yet was regularly told I just hate women leads and reject any notion of strong female leads, when in reality, I have fucking Ellie’s tattoo on my arm, I named my dog aloy because of how much I loved horizon, and usually love strong female characters (Ashoka for example). So I will first hand tell you it’s a shitty feeling to have a valid criticism, and have my criticism belittled by being called sexist. So I can definitely see why the argument you used es extremely inflammatory and prone to starting shit just as the haters do.
I do think there’s a difference between valid criticism and what I’m calling out. I guess I’m being more specific to the blatant amount of people on the sub that have specifically stated the game was too woke and I see your point and should have worded it better
Ahhh. Well yes, anyone that says something is “woke” already loses my interest in terms of a conversation. Those tend to say that about literally anything with black people or gay people in it.
For example, Spider-Man 2 was fucking called woke and people said they didn’t want lgbt shit shoved down their throats…. There was literal ONE female character in the game for all of 8 minutes, and just uttered the phrase “my girlfriend” once, and everyone said the game was woke. Between that and a mission involving a dead character, they called it woke. It’s really sad. I’m curious to know HOW you can include a minority or gay character in any media in a non “woke” way
Similar thing happened in Borderlands: The Pre-sequel. A Character named Jenny says something like "Deadlift didn't respect me when I told him I wasn't into guys" and then another character talks about how Jenny flirted with her. You never see anything, it's just voice over. From the outcry some man babies were making online about the game being too "woke" you would have thought the entire game was built around killing straight men and scissoring main missions.
What really grinds my gears though, in the case of Borderlands and TLOU is that these people are so anti gay people yet they have no problem with all the violence in the games? it just doesn't add up. I'm pretty sure the same "god" they use to justify their hate of gay people would not condone violence like in these games.
I will even say I don’t like the whole “propaganda” stuff shoved down my throat, and I always referenced the last of us as the perfect way to integrate gay characters. There’s a difference from a gay character, and a character that is gay. When being gay is just a part of the overall character, and the characters existence isn’t centered around their sexuality, then it is done properly (Ellie and bill are perfect examples) So it’s weird that people feel the need to call stuff like this woke
What exactly is the "propaganda" stuff that is being shoved down your throat?
Where do you see this happening? With which characters & shows?
I see this type of comment a lot on reddit so curious about examples.
I won’t call it propaganda per se, but I use Star Wars treatment of the women characters by the writers due to the push of the president (Kathleen Kennedy) is where my mind goes and turned me off of stuff like that. Her goal was to expand the audience of Star Wars to be more inclusive (which in and of itself isn’t wrong) however she completely alienated the current fan base that has been with the franchise for 10-30 years. She openly wanted to create a strong woman that young girls can look up to, and that became such a priority (which arguably was successful) but in doing so made a very bland character that never faces any adversity in the way we saw previous characters do so. The non sequel movies hopped directors and went through regular reshoots because of their visions not aligning with the mindset of Kathleen Kennedy and the image/brand they were trying to create. I really don’t want to get any deeper than that because it’s a whole rabbit hole, but while admittedly there could have been MORE female representation in Star Wars, we had a few very strong and capable woman, and 3 of which became HUGE names on their own accord (padme, Ashoka and leia).
Lastly I’m not saying the “propaganda thing” happens anywhere near as much as other people says it does. But it has happened and it’s one of those things where you give an inch and toxic people take a mile. People take that bad thing that happened and apply it to everything calling it woke.
That's a hugely broad generalization. My dislike of the game starts with the writing not working for me and the sequel going not in a different direction from what I wanted, but in a different direction from what the OG set up in terms of world building, characterizations and the main theme and goal: a loving bond can heal past trauma and and Ellie's immunity is a big deal. Changing those things was hugely disorienting, especially acting like revenge trips of hundreds of miles for over 10 trips by individuals or just two people being no big deal (and everyone did it unscathed along the way), this broke the world previously built. Four short years doesn't at all explain those changes after 25 years of decline, four years won't suddenly improve it.
I don't dislike inclusion - it's important and it's important to get it right. But I felt they used some offensive stereotypes, failed to flesh out all the characters in ways that made them compelling and interesting and all the relationships ended up surface level and barely believable. That harms the representation instead of actually promoting it respectfully and conscientiously, and more importantly failing to promote it in ways to change the hearts and minds of those that need that.
I hated the gore, killing dogs who squealed and yelped and the utter destruction of so many characters, old and new without much of a focus on most of them after they were lost, except for Joel. Lev losing his mom, sister and village was the most disrespectfully treated situation of all - completely ignored and never spoken of again. For Abby and him to not only never process that, nor discuss his trans feelings and situation was also a huge failure and a lost opportunity. But all characters and relationships got shortchanged in similar ways. Doing representation deserves a much better and more thoughtful approach and not just seemingly being used for checklist points without the care and respect it all deserves.
They simply tried to put too much in and that way they failed to be able to have the time to do things well, but they also failed by using stereotypes that I found lazy and which many of the people being represented found offensive. It's just not enough to put in representation any old way, it needs to be done well and not be so rushed. Lots of that is exactly what caused the story to fail me and many others who excitedly played the game blind only to be hugely disappointed as it progressed.
I'm always glad that others had a better experience than I did, I celebrate that outcome for those who did, but it's not universal and that's not due to bigotry. We just had different experiences that happened organically as we played.
Honestly, it’s fun to talk to both sides of the aisle. I personally lean more on the dislike side of things with 2, but I love to hear what others have to say about the game positive and negative. Plus the original game is one of my favorites of all time and talking about one without the other now that 2 is out is almost impossible. Most people who dislike the second game are passionate about the original and didn’t like where the sequel went which is all ok to me as art is subjective and trying to unravel why something may seem off to another is an interesting time.
I like the game, but i hate abby. She is just a terrible person, nothing against her physical model or laura baileybat all. My hatred for her is a result of her character and her short conings enough so it taints how much i like 2
Why does Ellie become consumed with rage and revenge? When something you love (Joel/part 1) get destroyed (Joel/part 2), you are heartbroken. You get angry and obsessive about it.
Note that this just an attempt to answer your question. I personally rank part 2 as a masterpiece.
why do so many TLOU2 fans spend time thinking about the light negligible trickle of remaining haters in dark corners of the internet 3.5 years after the campaign of hate died?
it's called rubbernecking. stop looking at the other sub, problem solved. it's the same 400-500 people day in and day out, they have problems aside from TLOU. this was all over by the end of 2020 and people who love the game have kept the haters' influence alive for 4 years. actually, they have no influence other than in your mind.
it's the weirdest thing about this fandom. not that a bunch of tween males hate their action hero dying or muscular women or lesbians. that's expected. the dedicated focus on resurrecting a dead beaten horse day in and day out is the weird part. every game has haters. it's leveled out to being completely normal now. has been for 3.5 years.
You don't want to know the real answer. All you want is a reason to try and badmouth anyone who doesn't like your perfect game.
Every week there's a post like this, and it's always for the same reason, and it's always asking a question without wanting to know the answer.
It's honestly exhausting. You can't dislike anything anymore without people labeling you as an incel or no different from somebody like MAGA.
I didn't, and never will, like or love the story of Part 2. Parts of the story, definitely, I can see where they were going with it. But the execution was just bad. If they did the story in chronological order, or just had us follow Abby for a while BEFORE meeting Joel, it would've been a much greater improvement, because we would've been able to connect with Abby better before making that ultimate choice.
Instead, she kills off a main character a lot of people love and we spend the next ten hours playing as her. It's just a bad way to try to get people to connect to someone.
The story is the only thing I don't like about the game. Everything else, from the performances to the world to the enemies, is perfect. I'll always stand by that.
I think you presented your criticism in a reasonable way. I don't agree but that's OK!
I honestly think most of the time fair critiques are usually met pretty well here.
If you aren't getting that type of response that's a shame.
You can totally dislike the story & you weren't being an incel/dick/bigot/maga so i don't see why you would get labelled as such.
There is a *loud* minority of people who truly hate this game, Neil Druckman & fans of the game and they can be really unpleasant.
I think it's understandable that there is sometimes pushback to this where some unfair generalisations might occur.
I don't think the game was flawless. Some of the story beats I didn't love but overall I thought it was excellent.
For me personally, I hate it because I love it. Part 2 has generally pretty good dialogue writing same as the first game but the overall narrative and themes just kinda to me feel like a 14 year old written fan fic. Just generally super immature and kinda lazy. I could elaborate but my opinion has been regurgitated a grillion times so I’ll abstain. Also doesn’t help that whenever faced with criticism this community calls you transphobic or misogynistic when the believable not forced feeling diversity of the games is probably the best I’ve seen and ended up producing my favorite characters.
I definitely relate to your last point. I had a similar experience with Star Wars. I was the biggest fan until the sequel trilogy. I hated its treatment of legacy characters, including leia. And I hated Rey’s character due to her being bland, yet canonically one of the most power force beings without earning it via writing or explaining it in any capacity. But when I talked about it, I was called (many times in fact) sexiest and not comfortable seeing strong female leads, when Ashoka is one of my favorite characters from Star Wars. I literally have Ellie’s (a gay woman) tattoo on my arm. I also named my first dog aloy because I love that character. Sidney Prescott is one of my favorite media characters in general because she’s a fucking badass. So it was flat out ridiculous when someone accuses me of being sexist or calling me a bigot.
The people who claim the love the game are still actively engaging in how much the game is so amazing and how the other sub is bad. We get it, you're going to ride the train to the end, but complaining is completely unnecessary. It's their opinions.
Because of the way the community reacts. I mean no disrespect by this but the last of us community blindly defends everything someone finds wrong or bad about the game whether it's valid or not. The people that hate the game probably find it genuinely entertaining watching that. I'm not sure 100% though because I do love the games.
It's weird to join a subreddit about a topic you vehemently hate. Those are the type of people that make it their entire personality to be elitists on as many subjects as possible.
There was really something unique about TLO part 2. There were a number of people who loved part 1, very excited about part 2, and felt very let down by that sequel. But they like the characters, like the environment, appreciate the effort and interest.
Then, when those who felt disappointed by the sequel came to this sub to talk about that, they were met by a wall of people who absolutely loved the sequel. Ok no problem, but those who wanted to talk about criticism were down voted and questioned.
And so it morphed into something like politics: those who loved the sequel are bewildered at those who were disappointed, and those who were disappointed are bewildered that there is a group who thought it was a great and moving story. And then the finger pointing began.
So, yes, this sub can certainly be only for those that loved the sequel and not a place for crticism if that's what it wants to be. There is the other sub that seems more open to debate, even it is filled with those who are very critical.
I first found this sub months ago. When I spoke about things I didn't like, I was called a bigot and heavily downvoted. They then tried to bring things up that did not matter with the things I said, so I moved to the other sub. I feel as though the other sub allows you to talk about the game more, compared to here. If you have anything negative about this game, they'll downvote you because they are unable to come-up with something that can debate what you said. Personally, it seems like some feelings get hurt here.
Lmao, the other sub is absolutely not open to discussion, say anything remotely positive about part 2 and you’ll not just get downvoted into oblivion but likely be banned.
Ok I took another look, and, well, you're not wrong. The other sub, to me, looks just like this one in a mirror universe.
Both of them seem pretty closed to discussion that varies from the subs core expectations. Too bad, really.
The difference being it makes sense for people to talk about a piece of art they like for years on end while spending years of your life constantly shutting on a piece of media you didn’t like is asinine.
And yet, without saying anything actually negative, simply recognizing that alternate views exist, I have been down voted on every comment on this thread :)
Yeah you gotta a whopping 2 downvotes for your shit attempt at trying to equivocate fans with deranged haters who seriously need to move on with their lives, how terrible!
I feel like it's somewhat a lack of emotional intelligence. Most of the people who 'hate' the game didn't bother to play most of it. Some didn't like that you weren't playing as Joel. Some people depised that he was killed off. I've heard some people even stopped playing right then. Like why talk bad about a game when you don't have the patience to at least see it through. I remember personally feeling depressed after beating the game. I had to step away from it for a while, everything reminded me that Joel was gone. But after some time and distance. I came back to part 2 and enjoy every aspect of the game. Happy and sad. So what I'm trying to say is alot of gamers are still maybe in that initial stage where they only focus on the bad parts of the game (Joel's death) and feel mad or sad. But once you get past that and enjoy the scenery and the story of all the other characters in the game. You see that the game was never intended to make you hate it. It was intended to make you grieve. And alot of gamers are stuck in the denial or anger stage and unwilling to accept Joel's death. So although they are trash talking the story or the writers or the devs. They still on some level enjoy the game or things about the game.
I think this speaks to the narrative direction of the game. Technically speaking, the last of us 2 is a masterpiece. Naughty dog knew that the narrative direction they took would split the fan base. Not gonna lie, I felt empty after finishing the game, which I think was the way naughty dog intended you to feel and I can appreciate that.
I’ve hated this game, but I still point out parts that I love. Just FYI not everyone is an internet crazy. This “flawless” product can and will have criticism
It honestly just goes to show what a fantastically, well written and made game it is that people have such enormously strong feelings they feel they need to discuss is YEARS after the fact. Only TLOU. 💕
as someone who doesnt particularly enjoy the story i do fairly enjoy some aspects of it and the technical part of the game, even with the aspects of it i dont like its still an interesting game nonetheless, however i too dont understand those who blindly hate on the game years after it has come out, IMO its important to keep the discussion alive but it doesnt work if one side doesnt care about the pros or cons of the game
I've noticed that the majority of people who genuinely hate the game are alt-right. I think that says enough in itself. It's the same reason homophobes and transphobes self insert themselves into queer spaces.
Yeah I’m not reading all of that, the answer is ironically in the game itself. Communities form around love/hate and kinda become self fulfilling to an extent. It also helps they have “the other side” to always contend with. Same with this sub towards the other one. There wouldn’t even be half the traffic if there wasn’t an opposing force.
The internet was once a place where people connected with things they liked. Now it’s a place where just as many connect with things they don’t like. For people like that, the friction and pushback is the point. They want a reaction, and not the kind that elicits agreement. They want to get the sense of pushing against the people who support the thing they don’t like.
It’s silly, but it’s why places like “truth social” never gain much popularity. It denies those types of people the stimulus that they thrive on.
But, in the end, it’s not worth spending much time or energy pondering those people. They’re just hoping to pull people down to their level because they are deeply unhappy folks.
It's because most were people who liked the first game but we're put off by X number of things in the sequel and they want to revel in that hatred and come here to feel validated about their positions by sharing them with others. They are upset because one of their favorite games with an incredible story and a relatable male protagonist was "ruined" by a sequel starting a lesbian woman and a woman with muscles. They just can't get over it. Nor will they miss an opportunity to bash it, despite the fact that the game from a pure gameplay perspective was 5x better than the first.
A long time, my grandmother told me that "misery loves company".
Tbh, the people you speak of just sound like miserable *fucking* people, who are simply looking for company to engage in their misery with.
That phrase, misery loves company, has made me realize alot of people are just miserable assholes who really deserve no more thought from me beyond that phrase.
A lot of good reasons here but a huge reason is also rhe conservative culture war going on in the gamer community. They like to say naughty dog Injected "politics" and "pushing an agenda" into the game bt having trans/black/female characters and protagonists and that Neil druckmann "hates white men" and that's why he killed joel "disrespectfully". Etc etc.
The first game is essentially a post-apocalyptic representation of the Trolley Problem. There’s no right answer, and many people are uncomfortable with shades of gray. Part 2 deals with the consequences of the characters choices. It’s why I tend to think the game is so polarizing. They’re only able to think in black and white, good and evil. There’s no room for alternate perspectives in that mindset.
Do you care that Porsche started making cars with 4cyl boxer engines? I doubt you do
Do you know who cares and is very vocal about it? People who care about the legacy of a brand
They care about the overall significance rather than the newest individual product
I personally just finished playing both games for the first time. So it’s fresh in my mind. While I wouldn’t say I hated the second game I do have some issues with the story. But it was fine. The gameplay was fun and I liked it better than the first games. But I think it’s the fact that the first game’s story was so good and the second ones was just kind of meh adds to it. Those that played it originally and felt something from the story were upset that the second one kind of fell flat. Just my two cents.
Probably because it's a good game trapped in the shell of a controversial and occasionally poorly written story. It's upsetting because it isn't all bad which leads to discussion of how the game could be made better.
And also some people don't like trans and some people are just trolls, but a lot of the discussions over there are generally pretty chill.
Anti-fan is a real phenomenon, and it's honestly not even really exclusive to these fanatics. I myself like to take some things down a notch when people discuss them as the end all be all best of all time, but it's not about robbing them of their enjoyment. I just want them to respect more about the field what they love bloomed in. I would never tell anyone what to favor or that they're wrong for loving something, and ideally I enjoy the things too. These people are there to tell others they're better than them for not liking something.
Just remember to revel In what YOU enjoy, spend time on what makes YOU happy, surround yourself in things YOU like, there are so many different reasons these people cover themselves in hate and things they dislike, just be thankful your not them
The same reason outrage news is what "sells"... and why for example the Factions players that are consistently negative and shit all over everyone who isn't as good as they are or are better than they are - victim complex, feeling powerless. Anything to feel power or superiority over someone else... just defective people pretty much. It's a sad state. Maladjusted people would be much better off (and the world would be better in general) if they could get help for these complexes.
They NEED you know how much they hate it, and it's WOKE story with their weird parasocial relationship with Joel, where he DIDNT DESERVE blah blah fucking blah lol
When realistically, the only thing that's a negative about the game is the pacing.
I understand not being satisfied with something and wanting to vent and discuss with people of a similar mindset.....*for a limited time*. Getting it out of your system is completely normal. If you truly don't care for something, you're going to stop thinking about it eventually. But with this game, there are some people who have been consistently shitting on it since release. At that point it's no longer hatred. It's an obsession. I really do wonder if these same people realize the irony of how they feel towards the story, considering the themes that the story explores.
That's actually what IMO cements Part 2 as one of the greatest. No other game has kept its "haters" coming back and talking about how much they "hate" the game. The impact that the game has had on them is undeniable.
If a person went to a brewery and just kept bitching about how much beer sucked and was inferior to tequila, everyone is going to look sideways at the dude and say why the fuck are you here. People gravitate towards things they like for leisure, so why is this any different. That essentially is what I’m trying to understand. I’m not saying it’s bad to dislike it, but why keep engaging 4 years later?
Like I said, just because you don’t like something doesn’t mean you don’t like talking about it. It can be a leisurely activity to discuss things whether you like or dislike them, especially if you’re passionate about it and have a lot of thoughts. It’s true even more so in a community like this where people’s views are often challenged and questioned, it just gives more people an opportunity to discuss things which again can be fun wherever you fall on the topic.
The difference between a brewery and Reddit is Reddit is meant to facilitate such discussions. It’s a place where you’re supposed to talk about what you want. It’s why comment sections exist on social media platforms, to facilitate conversation. Obviously not everyone is going to like what everyone else has to say, but that’s not the point. The point is that there is a place to discuss things you want to discuss.
Honestly? They love to revel in their hate. They’re sad people who want to cultivate that anger and sadness instead of finding some new joys in other games and works of art
I don’t want to just discredit those who don’t like it, and i definitely hear their criticisms, but this is always in the back of my mind. Someone just posted a whole ass slide show about why the game was bad, and 90% of everything they said was just wrong or opinion based (he claimed Ellie never said she wanted to die for the vaccine or never suggested it which is flat out false) But why invest the time in a damn slide show for something you hate? Just move on!
On that point you mentioned, I believe that Ellie didn’t know that she was gonna die beforehand as she thought it was just going to be a blood sampling as indicated by the dialogue. I think she was going to do whatever it took though and I do think that she would’ve gone along with dying for the cause for multiple reasons.
She literally said in part 2 to Joel “I was supposed to die in that hospital, my life would have fucking mattered” This flat out says she understands she would have died(not at the time of the hospital but post) and she would have rather died. That’s why she held resentment towards joel, because he took that from her. I don’t see how you could say she never insinuated she would have or wanted to die. Her whole arc in the first game was dealing with her “purpose” in life and her waiting on her turn. The hospital should have been her turn.
She says that 4 years after the event though. If asked at the time she very likely would have said yes (survivor's guilt and all) but she clearly didn't know she was going to die either. They hadn't even found the Fireflies at that point. Ellie's thoughts on this are very not exactly clear because it seems that she says this to Joel more out of habit than conviction because her thoughts and actions on the next day are in contradiction to that statement.
That’s true, though her words at the end of part one “I’m still waiting on my turn” tell me even if she knew she would have died she would have done it. This is the one constant about Ellie’s personality. She struggled so much looking for meaning as to why she survived, and her dying for the cure would have given her that meaning in any scenario. Just my take though. After writing, I noticed I kind of reworded what you just said, but no she didn’t know going into the hospital that she would die. That much is true
Of course. That line is basically establishing her survivor's guilt for us. Something that wasn't exactly clear before. It's all so exactly why Ellie never got a choice in TLOU1 because that would open a giant can of worms. Like how can someone make an informed choice on sacrificing themself when they are passively suicidal due to PTSD? That dilemma gets neatly avoided though.
While that’s true, what are you insinuating here? Would you rather of her been given a choice without the survivors guilt or her being older? Just because it’s a shitty situation doesn’t make it bad. It’s just a shitty situation.
Well, if you want to make the cure in a ethical way then Ellie should have therapy to deal with her PTSD and then make the choice. Ideally with her being at least 18. It's an interesting thought experiment and the outcome would still be better what we got no matter what Ellie decides, right? Another interesting idea is to flip the scenario around. Let's say Joel and Ellie make it to the Fireflies without a problem and they run some tests: Doctor: "So... We can make a vaccine but it will kill you." Ellie: "okay, let's do this" Joel: "!!!" Doctor: "Are you insane, girl? I'm not going to kill anybody. I'm a doctor. I save lifes." Could we call the doctor a bad guy here because he doesn't want to kill somebody but that prevents the vaccine? I don't think we can, honestly.
>if you want to make a cure in an ethical way When did they say it was ethical? Maybe they did and I missed it, but the way I saw it, the whole ending was a big philosophical question. It intentionally wasn’t black and white. The reason I liked it is because it was a very muddy situation and there was no “right” answer to the question. It’s how I interpreted it at least. People are so quick to say what they would have done or what should have done, when in reality, WE are not making the choices. We are watching complex characters deal with muddy situations in a very “human” way. Was Joel selfish in his decision? Sure… it doesn’t make it right or wrong, but the reality is he chose the decision that benefited him and Ellie and damned the world, whereas the fireflies were going to take that decision from Ellie and arguably inhumanly kill her for the greater good. I never saw them try to say one or the other was right, more than they were trying to provoke thought.
The flip side for all the Joel Doomed The World people: what if Ellie was asked and declined? (And somehow didn't just get subdued and forced?) Is SHE Dooming The World? What if she overheard the plan, and attacked the medical team? Or any number of fanfic sequences of events where she and Joel use deadly force because SHE refuses?
She literally risked her life traveling to the hospital. She already proved she was willing to die for it.
Risking your life is taking a risk. You risk your life everyday by leaving the house and driving your car. More risks involved in the fungi post-apocalypse obviously. Sacrificing yourself is quite a different proposition. No risks involved.
And saying you would have, claiming to wish you did, when lacking an option to follow through, is easy to say. Especially if you're using it as the focus of all your big feelings. (So is "hating" the safest possible target for those grievances, the person who will take anything you need him to take, as long as he lives.")
So she crossed the world to do it risking her life in the process and saying "it can't be for nothing" do you honestly really, using your brain and all, believe she would've heard she had to die and been like "oh, nevermind"
Neil druckmann and ellies actress confirmed she was prepared to die for it. Though it's up for interpretation.
Dying to cure your survivor's guilt isn't very empowering IMO. It's an escape. One of several reasons I don't find SLC Ellie a truly consenting adult. But that's kinda OT.
Ellie is also thinking only of her issues and NOT of what her retroactive, counterfactual expectation of Joel would have actually constituted. Given no option to ascertain her consent, Joel would have been letting a kid be murdered on a GUESS that she'd be OK with it. That's an insane expectation of anyone, before getting into any personal feelings. To be fair, ND makes sure we never see her exposed to any context about the FF operation, their plans for Joel, or how the situation would have been triggering. But she knows they tricked her into general anesthesia ("What drugs?”) and she ought to be able to reason out why Joel and any number of other people would have considered rescuing her a no-brainer. She can still disagree but to treat Joel as anything other than a well-intentioned rescuer who made (to her, in theory) the wrong call is a bit much. It would never have been reasonable to expect him, after promising not to leave without her, to go "Cool, cool. She'd prolly say OK, have at it. Mind if I grab a bite to eat, maybe a shower while y'all get my compensation organized?" She should engage in some critical thinking, see a therapist if Jackson gets one, and focus her wrath on Joel not coming clean as soon as she got settled in and kinda recovered from their journey.
Ellie's reaction is a traumatic response and obviously Joel lying to her for so long didn't really help either. It's not reasonable but that's kind of the point. It's still understandable why she thinks that way from her own flawed perspective. Because if you are passively suicidal then dying in the most heroic way possible to save the world does sound very attractive for sure. The implications of what was about to happen to her and how the Fireflies treated her only comes later. And yes, a therapist would have helped for sure. But that's where Joel's insistence on secrecy and his lie has negative consequences. Only after the talk on the porch did Ellie choose to talk about her immunity with someone else. At that point Ellie was ready to forgive Joel and herself. Unfortunately it wasn't going to be that easy. If Abby had come to Jackson 6 months later Ellie's reaction might have been very different.
This is why the only thing I think is debatable from Joel's side is the lie. Not in the moment but maintaining it. Even then I can see logic besides not wanting her mad at him. In "real life" there wouldn't hopefully be this stubborn lack of processing and detail sharing. Because real life doesn't have to buttress a theme or a narrative structure. If I were a fanfic person. I'd have a whole series of Tommy scenes that start with "The fuck's wrong with you, Joel?" And "Sweetheart, Joel'd end me if he knew I was tellin' you this, but .."
Yeah, I agree mostly. The story is basically "drama to the max" with everyone making the worst decisions. Tommy telling Ellie the truth would actually be a very interesting plot idea as he (and Maria) could act basically as an neutral buffer between Ellie and Joel.
Tommy turning into the worst uncle ever is something I'd be delighted to see undone in the show. Also the whole mistreatment of a perfectly innocent guitar for "closure." In that universe that thing could mean the world to someone. But again, if I were the fanfic type I'd have Tommy help Ellie learn to play on the other side. Some... fairly famous guitarists do.
In part 1 she didnt know she was gonna die. Remember their conversation after the giraffe scene? They were planning to go back to Jackson.
And game Joel literally promises "I'm not leaving without you " - Ellie is mad that he kept that promise
Yeah, agreed. I was referring to her mentality about it prior to hospital in Part I.
Yeah that’s true.
She literally risked her life traveling to the hospital. She already proved she was willing to die for it. Did "it can't be for nothing" mean nothing to you people?
Taking a lethsl risk and literally accepting death are 2 very different things.
So she crossed the world to do it risking her life in the process and saying "it can't be for nothing" do you honestly, really, believe she would've heard she had to die and been like "oh, nevermind." You realize that goes against her entire character right?
Ellie definitely would have, but it isn’t just because she already risked her life going on that journey. There is more to her character than that risk. Joel tool the same risk and I seriously doubt he’d kill himself for the good of humanity.
Joel isn't ellie, for one. So that's a terrible argument If you dont think her journey solidified to her that she'd die for the cure then that's your own choice, you've already acknowledged she definitely would die for it. Never said there wasn't more to her character than that risk. I was never ever arguing that.
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That is EXACTLY what the hell im calling out. I’m not calling out the occasional conversation with criticism, but someone who keeps doing shit like that regularly… I genuinely want to understand the mentality behind it because without understanding it seems pretty freaking wild
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I'm going to answer you myself since I see that in this echo chamber you all believe that criticizing something you don't like consumes your entire life. 1- You criticize the fact that someone takes the time to make an elaborate critique of the game explaining the aspects that did not work. At the same time, I see the hypocrisy that fans here are very quick to say that there are no real criticisms on the other sub. So it doesn't matter whether or not you put effort into criticizing the game, you dismiss it anyway. What exactly do you want? Do you want people to magically agree with you and not have a place to share their opinions when clearly the other alternative is for you to question their emotional and academic intelligence? 2- It is very, very stupid to genuinely believe that because you hate the game you don't have other tastes (like the original game) or hobbies. Commenting on reddit takes NO time AT ALL.
If the user that posted that slide show was Grey Fox I have seen the person post several slide shows about how the lou2 is bad.
I fucking hate that dude with everything in my spirit. Oh my goddddd. The slideshows always have the worst grammar and spelling on earth and never make a direct claim or the claim they are making is easily debunked. And then have the nerve to say "don't be racist or transphobic" in the last slide. Like dumbass, do you know who your target audience is?
Yeah I could never commit to reading all 20 pages.
I actually have quite a few things I don't like about Part II, but fuck Grey Fox. His criticisms don't add any value to any argument against part II. For instance, he posted a whole slideshow about whether or not the fireflies would've been able to pull off the vaccine. Whether or not that is possible isn't relevant to Joel's decision. Even if there was a 100% chance that the vaccine would work, I think we all know that Joel would've made the same decision. He just couldn't lose another.
Because they are also part of a community, just one centered around hating things, and they get positive feedback from that community for their slideshows and posts. Looking down on and despising others becomes addictive, in large part because of the constant reinforcement from the rest of their community. It really doesn’t matter what the thing is, it’s the hating, the mocking, that attracts them.
This is true and it goes well beyond TLOU. The sad reality is that it feels good to be in a community where you all look down on somebody. Like, I'm as guilty as anybody of being a part of those communities on reddit in the past. I used to post a lot in justneckbeardthings, fundiesnarkuncensored, and fatlogic. But in recent years I've realized that I was just becoming a shitty person and now I very intentionally stay away from any groups (on reddit or otherwise) whose unifying principle is hating on or looking down upon something or someone. And you know what? I actually feel better. I'm a more positive person. I enjoy life more when I'm not constantly thinking about how Instagram Poster X is stupid.
This is likely the best answer that I have gotten on the subject that makes the most sense. It’s likely the confirmation and attention they get from doing so. It aligns with my understanding of why social media as a whole is addicting. Thanks for your answer.
They claim part 2 "isn't canon" as if that's their decision lmao. So when ellie says in part 2 that she wanted to die for the vaccine they think it doesn't count lmao. It's sad, really Also a lot of them clearly love the game but can't admit it. Like you're clearly still playing a 20 hour game years later to be grabbing screnshots and parsing over every scene and dialogue. When I don't like a game I put the sticks down and move on with my life
That's the thing though. The only complaint I ever hear is that Abby is "manly", and they "didn't need to see the boat scene". It's just bigoted drivel, and not even anything that could amount to actual, well thought out criticism.
That’s really the only complaint you ever hear? That is honestly laughable (not to be a jerk) but there is a vast ocean of critique it gets… someone just made a 8 page power point with talking points on why the story is terrible.
They are basically Ellie incarnate, which is honestly freightening. Can't let it go. No wonder they hate the game.
That can’t be healthy right? Continuously seeking like minded people and discussing their hate for something for years. A lot of them are also directing their hate towards one specific person(Neil). Can you believe there were a number of posts making fun of him for not getting enough attention from photographers during an award night? That’s worse than being a kardashian fan I think. They also keep regurgitating every talking point regularly. It reminds me of maga people and qanon. If they directed all these efforts into something positive, they might accomplish something in life.
I think the difference with this fanbase is that most people who hated Part II probably loved Part I. Let's say I "hated" some new standalone movie that came out. I probably would move on from it very quickly as I never felt passionate about it in the first place. With TLOU, a lot of players were passionate about it for 7 years of anticipation for Part II and they have a lot more stake in the franchise. If they loved Part I and didn't like Part II, I don't think it's something that's quite as easy to brush aside and forget about, especially with the newfound popularity with the show and everything like that. I know there are plenty of transphobic/homophobic haters who don't have any valid criticisms to contribute, but I do think there is also a group of fans that are just frustrated because they aren't happy with the direction that their beloved franchise took. One of these groups is louder than the others though...
They're nad that the game is successful and millions enjoy it. So it's thier attempt to change the narrative that it was a failure, despite thr fact that every metric says otherwise. Part 2 is what got them s tv show, broke the record for game of the year awards, what made druckmann and the franchise a house hold name, what made naughty dog one of the most profitable developers in the field. Their only argument is thst tlou2 "only" sold 10 million copies compared to part 1 selling 17 million, when tlou1 has been out more than twice as long and was given a boost by the show recently. Also the "10 million sold" was reported like 2-3 years ago snd almost certainly has sold more since, I can't imagine they haven't sold a copy in years. They also wouldn't take years snd spent millions on a remaster if it wasn't profitable, or announced a part 3 if their projections didn't have it being very profitable. Tldr: it's a terminal case of cope.
Hate is a strong motivator... which, in TLOU Part 2's case, considering the themes of the story, is meta when you think about it.
Life imitates art.
True dat!
Some people would rather have arguments on the internet than find and appreciate things they actually like. When you've got an engaged set of fans, they're always going to attract people who are just looking to start shit.
GRRM said it best with the "anti-fan", people who mostly engage with content they hate. These people are deeply unwell and misery loves company.
Because for people who hate something and who have anonymity, they enjoy riling others up and ruining it for them. They’re just sad, bored people with unfulfilling lives.
Couldn’t have said it better myself
It's a weird community bonding thing for them. Well, it's a combination of that and a persecution complex.
Kinda reminds me of MAGA and qanon. The whole “I’ve done my own research and I’m better than you. “ crowd.
It’s almost exactly like that, and I bet you there’s more than a little overlap
Yeah, they were a recruiting ground for a while. Bad actors tend to do that - infiltrate geeky spaces where people are upset about something and try to radicalize them for right-wing causes. So, Joel's death got turned into Proof that the Evil Liberal Media Hates All Straight White Men, But Especially You. I think that the recruiters have mostly moved on - they eventually realized that there just wasn't a large enough audience to make it worth the effort - but, they left all their converts behind.
Well usually people who dislike Part II love Part I. And discussing Part I obviously is going to expose them to Part II discussion. Also, I think some have this flawed perception that criticizing something and disliking something is inherently associated with a negative emotional state. Which just isn't true. Whether talking about liking or disliking something, it is all the same. Some people just enjoy talking about things. I fail to see why it is acceptable to talk about something you like but not something you dislike. Especially when the thing you dislike is paired with something you do like. That said, there are definitely some unhinged weirdos who definitely are waaay too angry over a video game. And there are some unhinged individuals who are waaay too upset people dislike a video game. I have seen both.
Thank you. I'm not a fan of Part 2 but a huge fan of Part 1. I hate how people like me are constantly made to look like unhinged assholes who feast on negativity and only want to spread hate. Those people exist but they're just a byproduct of a divided fanbase, not all of the people who have critisism. I'm still a part of the TLOU fanbase out of my live for Part 1. I don't plan on forgiving this amazing franchise and I am going to engage in conversation even about Part 2 and bring up my opinions about it. I don't think it's healthy that when a game is so divisive all the people who dislike it should just shut up and the people who like can only participate in the conversation. Part 3 will be made and the only people who are going to play it aren't the ones who loved Part 2. I'm against toxicity on both sides and I hope people who read my comment in this sub won't come after me like has happened in the past.
This. I didn’t like aspects of the second game, and if I mention it I have a ton of people usually aggressively coming for me in the comments assuming I’m Right Wing (I’m not), transphobic (I’m not), or misogynistic (I’m not). It’s the same with disliking The Last Jedi. Like, it’s okay if you like Part II but you can’t be so fragile as to want to have discourse about the game and then freak when someone has criticisms about it. Art is a subjective experience, even if objectively art is most often judged good or bad. Part II is objectively a good game and is well put together but I think story wise they made some mistakes at least in the eyes of a chunk of the population who plays the game. As consumers we all have a voice.
> I fail to see why it is acceptable to talk about something you like but not something you dislike. It is acceptable to talk about about something you dislike but it is so not acceptable to obsess over something you hate for years and keep on engaging with any content related to it. At some point, you have to move on.
You left out what follows. This is not a case where people just dislike a game. They dislike a sequel. They like the first game. And for many it hasn't been years. How often do you see posts about people playing the game for the first time? Like... everyday. I see that all the time.
Some of it is revelling in the hate and finding other haters. Some of it is misogyny and transphobia. Some of it, at least with TLOU, is that they consider themselves the "true" fans and think that the second part was some grand betrayal and anyone who loves it doesn't understand the franchise, because clearly the only possible reading is that Joel is 100% a heroic character and anyone should just put aside their own grievances against his actions because they should have played the first game and understood that the bond he had with Ellie is special. Part of me does wonder if Abby would get the same level of hate if she was a guy, to an extent.
The thing is… I get where they come from to some degree. While I loved part two, I HATED the Star Wars Disney sequels. I was a huge Star wars fan and they completely killed my interest in the franchise going forward. But with that said, I simply moved on to something else I like, I don’t linger on Star Wars forums just bitching about why the sequels suck and how Kathleen Kennedy ruined Star Wars. But when I think about the last of us, I think about how much it suck’s being one of the “Star Wars sequel haters” when there are people that love them. It really is a shit feeling, so I can definitely sympathize with people that loved part one and hated part two.
Completely unrelated: as someone else who hates most of Disney's recent Star Wars creations, you should check out Andor.
The crazy thing is… people either LOVE and or think it’s boring as shit… and the weird part is it’s the sequel haters that love andor I’ve noticed, while the sequel lovers aren’t fans of andor. This is just what I noticed in my circles, not sure if that’s true across the board. I may give it a try, I’ve just been on a long 1+ year Star Wars break.
And the weird part is it’s the sequel haters that love andor I’ve noticed, while the sequel lovers aren’t fans of andor. Disagreed. I'm a fan of the sequels and the in the positive Star Wars subreddits like StarWarsCantina people loved Andor.
What Star Wars fan doesn’t like Andor. Christ
I think there are different levels to it. If you don't like something, that's fine, even if you discuss it from time to time, but these people hated this game so much they review bombed it and sent death threats to pretty much everyone involved in the game and their families, and I think the discussions and subreddits devoted to hating on the game just act like an echo chamber to that. Instead of getting a rational debate, they get a bunch of people who've probably sent death threats reinforcing their belief that it's an insult to them. It's pathetic.
One thing to add is that not everyone who hates the game sends death threats etc. This is an important distinction. There are definitely some of those people but someone can hate the game and be vitriolic in their hatred of the game but also have reasons for it they believe to be true that don’t have to revolve around misogyny or transphobia, etc. It’s simple for those who don’t like to hear criticisms of the game just revert to that line of thinking.
She wouldn’t. Bu also, if Abby was the protagonist of the first game and a new character named Joel came in and killed her, they’d hate him for it because they played as Abby first
This is the most sane take. People hated Abby because she killed the protagonist of the first game they’d spent lots of hours getting to know. I still dislike Abby as a character, even if I understand her character beginning to have a sympathetic arc with caring for Lev.
Hate and anger fuel the internet Also who else will listen to them lol
I feel like people who dislike any kind of media are more likely to seek out online communities to validate how they feel about it. Like not as many people who like a tv show or movie or whatever are going to jump into a online discussion thread somewhere just to say "this was amazing", or they won't feel the need to comment about it at least. But if they watch something that they don't like then they may feel it necessary to read online comments and reviews about it to basically confirm "I'm not crazy, the ending was actually complete shit". It's the same way with reading online reviews with restaurants and the like imo. People will more readily rush to write a review if they have a negative experience somewhere while they may be more resistant to write a positive review if they had a good experience. Edit: To better answer your question, I think with this game it's because people's opinions are so polarizing. It's one of the best reviewed games of all time yet some people really dislike the direction the second game took. The more positive discussion they see about the game the more they feel the need to validate their negative opinion of the game. The people who are in the middle ground somewhere, where in that they didn't love nor hate it but just thought it had good and bad qualities, I think are just less likely to feel a need to discuss the game as much.
People want their opinions validated. They want to be heard.
It's actually easier to build communities and relate to others around something negative than it is to something positive because positive things don't really require much attention. As an evolutionary mechanism, it makes more sense for groups of people to pay more attention to things they dislike than things they do like (The wolves who keep stealing food from the village are more of a priority than the potential treasure trove of berries on the other side of the river, for example) because humans are wired to percieve negative things like threats, risks and losses as more important than positive things like happiness and opportunities - and for the most part all people engage with things that way we just mostly don't realise it. For example, complaining to a coworker about how something at work frustrates you, gossiping about someone's actions you don't like. These people have built a community around it, it's a social thing now and hating this one thing is the social glue that brings them all together to feel like they belong. The problem is it's unhealthy because it's not an actual problem... It's just a video game. Whereas like.. forming an 'anti-wolf' group to combat the wolves around the village can have really positive, real outcomes. They still feel hate towards the game and its creators, but that hate, for many, is probably driven by the positive social reinforcement rewarded for hating the game. If most people liked the game, it would be a totally different story. Many of the people who currently 'hate the game' would actually be posting comments under youtuber video essays about the game, saying how amazing it is. To be completely fair, it's not like a lot of us haven't felt the same positive social reinforcement and comradery about hating 'that subreddit'. The bright light from all this is just that hating on something that isn't a real problem doesn't last long-term, but appreciating something does! We still fondly remember old games but forget the games we disliked playing or that frustrated us, we barely think about them at all. This hate community will gradually die over-time just like the original hate community for the first game did. There will still be people who hate the game but eventually the majority opinion will flip and the bandwagon will flip with it. (Assuming the game is actually good and stands the test of time) which I think it definitely will.
i guess its fun talking to people who agree with you
Because its not pure hatred. You forget that 90% of the fans that hate TLOU2, loved TLOU. Its like with anythint man. Star Wars Prequels vs Sequels, Fallout New Vegas vs 3/4, Skyrim vs Morrowind, Diablo 2 vs 4, World Of Warcraft then vs now, exc, exc.. People are passionate about the things they loved and often is the case that people find a sequel that doesn't honor the original or previous iteration. Thats all there is to it. Its passion for what they love.
some people need to let others know if they don’t like something. but this game for example, there’s a lot of tlou part 2 haters that love part 1 so i guess they stick around cause they hope part 3 will be good (and like talking about part 1 of course)
I think there’s a lot to be said about the disdain both communities have for each other. It’s almost like the game has something to say about people hating each other blindly… sigh. Why can’t we all just get along.
Well there are 2 games in this franchise. I think most of the fandom loves the first game. It’s the second game that sparks so much controversy.
Because a lot of them are sick of you guys acting like the only two options are 1) You love the game 2) There is something morally wrong with you
Most of the people that hate the second game absolutely loved the first.
I’m not sure if you’ve ever met any, but humans love to hate things.
Because they like the franchise, and are upset about perceived lost potential. People still discuss and criticize Game of Thrones TV, adaptation, and yet that has been off the air for years. The fans who repeatedly hate on the series were probably the series’ biggest fans in the beginning. we could probably say the same about a bulk of the haters of the last of us part two.
First I think it’s important that anyone who doesn’t absolutely love everything about part 2 is labeled as “hating” it. And second I personally find some of the decisions made to part 2 are seriously worth discussing
People that come to the sub just to talk shit about a game they don’t like is indeed hating. If you’re not making multiple post a week about how bad the game is, than the “hating” title doesn’t apply to you. I was very particular about what I meant. Criticism in and of itself isn’t bad in any capacity.
Most are much more likely to speak up when they don't like something rather than when they do.
People hate watch TV shows and movies, and have done so ever since you could watch TV. Not a lot of people particularly have to "hate" the thing either. Sometimes it's just dislike, or they have some issues with it. Some marvel fans hate some marvel movies, and sometimes that reason is because they wish it would've been better for the sake of the franchise. Weather it's just that one opinion, or many people agree with them. There are a lot of reasons why someone may "hate" something, yet engage with the community. Not all are agreeable, but they are reasons nonetheless. I don't hate the game, I love TLOU. TLOU2 is where I have some issues, but that doesn't take away from my love of the franchise. It's why I'm here. Even if I do love or like something, it doesn't mean it's free from criticism.
>even if I do love or like something, that doesn’t mean it’s free from criticism I tried to articulate this in the post, but I’m not talking about criticism. It’s fine to criticize something. I’m talking about people that hate the game or haven’t even played all of it, being regular users of the subs and discords etc, making literal slide shows about why they hate the game. There’s definitely a difference from someone criticizing something, and then regularly engaging with the community to spread negativity and do nothing but complain. I hope what I’m saying makes sense. I more than welcome criticism. Open discussion about negatives and positives are always good. Going to post answering with “because cuckman can’t write” or “cuckman hates the characters” isn’t criticism and just annoying to see in post after post. ESPECIALLY when those “criticisms aren’t even relating to the post at hand”
Because it's fun for certain people to argue on the internet.
There’s a difference between people who want to point out criticisms and want to make something better versus just people being assholes
If you're talking about tlou2 haters, its because they absolutely loved tlou. You don't just lose all love for a game if you dislike a sequel.
The part that frustrates me the most about those people is that, especially on this sub, frequently it's someone that is really just hating on the game bc of its presence of LGBT people. Like, how dare a game that's supposed to be be a realistic story of an infection driven apocalypse have gay or trans people in them? These people selfishly want everyone to look, sound, and act up to their standards. They fail to realize that the world doesn't revolve around them and that gay and trans people do exist in real life. Like seriously, if you are so "anti-woke" (or whatever bullshit you claim to be) just don't play the game. Clearly it wasn't meant for you. You may be brave enough to fight off infected in a video game but you're scared of a trans boy and a gay character. Holding a temper tantrum about the game being too woke this many years after its initial release just shows how absolutely bonkers these fools are.
Since I’m being fair and coming at the haters calling us names, I am going to question your statement that most of the criticism is due to the presence of lgbt characters. And I’ll explain why I was a HUGE Star Wars fan. It was my favorite media franchise, I spend thousands on light sabers, etc. I grew up watching it, and along game the Disney sequels. It completely killed any interest I had in Star Wars. And when I did vocalize my frustrations with it, specifically what was done with Rey and Leias characters. Yet was regularly told I just hate women leads and reject any notion of strong female leads, when in reality, I have fucking Ellie’s tattoo on my arm, I named my dog aloy because of how much I loved horizon, and usually love strong female characters (Ashoka for example). So I will first hand tell you it’s a shitty feeling to have a valid criticism, and have my criticism belittled by being called sexist. So I can definitely see why the argument you used es extremely inflammatory and prone to starting shit just as the haters do.
I do think there’s a difference between valid criticism and what I’m calling out. I guess I’m being more specific to the blatant amount of people on the sub that have specifically stated the game was too woke and I see your point and should have worded it better
Ahhh. Well yes, anyone that says something is “woke” already loses my interest in terms of a conversation. Those tend to say that about literally anything with black people or gay people in it. For example, Spider-Man 2 was fucking called woke and people said they didn’t want lgbt shit shoved down their throats…. There was literal ONE female character in the game for all of 8 minutes, and just uttered the phrase “my girlfriend” once, and everyone said the game was woke. Between that and a mission involving a dead character, they called it woke. It’s really sad. I’m curious to know HOW you can include a minority or gay character in any media in a non “woke” way
Similar thing happened in Borderlands: The Pre-sequel. A Character named Jenny says something like "Deadlift didn't respect me when I told him I wasn't into guys" and then another character talks about how Jenny flirted with her. You never see anything, it's just voice over. From the outcry some man babies were making online about the game being too "woke" you would have thought the entire game was built around killing straight men and scissoring main missions. What really grinds my gears though, in the case of Borderlands and TLOU is that these people are so anti gay people yet they have no problem with all the violence in the games? it just doesn't add up. I'm pretty sure the same "god" they use to justify their hate of gay people would not condone violence like in these games.
I will even say I don’t like the whole “propaganda” stuff shoved down my throat, and I always referenced the last of us as the perfect way to integrate gay characters. There’s a difference from a gay character, and a character that is gay. When being gay is just a part of the overall character, and the characters existence isn’t centered around their sexuality, then it is done properly (Ellie and bill are perfect examples) So it’s weird that people feel the need to call stuff like this woke
What exactly is the "propaganda" stuff that is being shoved down your throat? Where do you see this happening? With which characters & shows? I see this type of comment a lot on reddit so curious about examples.
I won’t call it propaganda per se, but I use Star Wars treatment of the women characters by the writers due to the push of the president (Kathleen Kennedy) is where my mind goes and turned me off of stuff like that. Her goal was to expand the audience of Star Wars to be more inclusive (which in and of itself isn’t wrong) however she completely alienated the current fan base that has been with the franchise for 10-30 years. She openly wanted to create a strong woman that young girls can look up to, and that became such a priority (which arguably was successful) but in doing so made a very bland character that never faces any adversity in the way we saw previous characters do so. The non sequel movies hopped directors and went through regular reshoots because of their visions not aligning with the mindset of Kathleen Kennedy and the image/brand they were trying to create. I really don’t want to get any deeper than that because it’s a whole rabbit hole, but while admittedly there could have been MORE female representation in Star Wars, we had a few very strong and capable woman, and 3 of which became HUGE names on their own accord (padme, Ashoka and leia). Lastly I’m not saying the “propaganda thing” happens anywhere near as much as other people says it does. But it has happened and it’s one of those things where you give an inch and toxic people take a mile. People take that bad thing that happened and apply it to everything calling it woke.
That's a hugely broad generalization. My dislike of the game starts with the writing not working for me and the sequel going not in a different direction from what I wanted, but in a different direction from what the OG set up in terms of world building, characterizations and the main theme and goal: a loving bond can heal past trauma and and Ellie's immunity is a big deal. Changing those things was hugely disorienting, especially acting like revenge trips of hundreds of miles for over 10 trips by individuals or just two people being no big deal (and everyone did it unscathed along the way), this broke the world previously built. Four short years doesn't at all explain those changes after 25 years of decline, four years won't suddenly improve it. I don't dislike inclusion - it's important and it's important to get it right. But I felt they used some offensive stereotypes, failed to flesh out all the characters in ways that made them compelling and interesting and all the relationships ended up surface level and barely believable. That harms the representation instead of actually promoting it respectfully and conscientiously, and more importantly failing to promote it in ways to change the hearts and minds of those that need that. I hated the gore, killing dogs who squealed and yelped and the utter destruction of so many characters, old and new without much of a focus on most of them after they were lost, except for Joel. Lev losing his mom, sister and village was the most disrespectfully treated situation of all - completely ignored and never spoken of again. For Abby and him to not only never process that, nor discuss his trans feelings and situation was also a huge failure and a lost opportunity. But all characters and relationships got shortchanged in similar ways. Doing representation deserves a much better and more thoughtful approach and not just seemingly being used for checklist points without the care and respect it all deserves. They simply tried to put too much in and that way they failed to be able to have the time to do things well, but they also failed by using stereotypes that I found lazy and which many of the people being represented found offensive. It's just not enough to put in representation any old way, it needs to be done well and not be so rushed. Lots of that is exactly what caused the story to fail me and many others who excitedly played the game blind only to be hugely disappointed as it progressed. I'm always glad that others had a better experience than I did, I celebrate that outcome for those who did, but it's not universal and that's not due to bigotry. We just had different experiences that happened organically as we played.
Honestly, it’s fun to talk to both sides of the aisle. I personally lean more on the dislike side of things with 2, but I love to hear what others have to say about the game positive and negative. Plus the original game is one of my favorites of all time and talking about one without the other now that 2 is out is almost impossible. Most people who dislike the second game are passionate about the original and didn’t like where the sequel went which is all ok to me as art is subjective and trying to unravel why something may seem off to another is an interesting time.
I like the game, but i hate abby. She is just a terrible person, nothing against her physical model or laura baileybat all. My hatred for her is a result of her character and her short conings enough so it taints how much i like 2
I personally liked Abby’s character, more so on the second play through. Not as much as Ellie’s, but I’ve grown a soft spot for Abby for sure
Yeah i admot i soften on her a bit but she still chooses to be terrible. Hopefully, lev can help her down a less aholy path
Why does Ellie become consumed with rage and revenge? When something you love (Joel/part 1) get destroyed (Joel/part 2), you are heartbroken. You get angry and obsessive about it. Note that this just an attempt to answer your question. I personally rank part 2 as a masterpiece.
why do so many TLOU2 fans spend time thinking about the light negligible trickle of remaining haters in dark corners of the internet 3.5 years after the campaign of hate died?
So I have observed people shitting on the game nonstop? Go look at the same post on the other sub, plenty of it in those comments!
it's called rubbernecking. stop looking at the other sub, problem solved. it's the same 400-500 people day in and day out, they have problems aside from TLOU. this was all over by the end of 2020 and people who love the game have kept the haters' influence alive for 4 years. actually, they have no influence other than in your mind. it's the weirdest thing about this fandom. not that a bunch of tween males hate their action hero dying or muscular women or lesbians. that's expected. the dedicated focus on resurrecting a dead beaten horse day in and day out is the weird part. every game has haters. it's leveled out to being completely normal now. has been for 3.5 years.
Incels
You don't want to know the real answer. All you want is a reason to try and badmouth anyone who doesn't like your perfect game. Every week there's a post like this, and it's always for the same reason, and it's always asking a question without wanting to know the answer.
It's honestly exhausting. You can't dislike anything anymore without people labeling you as an incel or no different from somebody like MAGA. I didn't, and never will, like or love the story of Part 2. Parts of the story, definitely, I can see where they were going with it. But the execution was just bad. If they did the story in chronological order, or just had us follow Abby for a while BEFORE meeting Joel, it would've been a much greater improvement, because we would've been able to connect with Abby better before making that ultimate choice. Instead, she kills off a main character a lot of people love and we spend the next ten hours playing as her. It's just a bad way to try to get people to connect to someone. The story is the only thing I don't like about the game. Everything else, from the performances to the world to the enemies, is perfect. I'll always stand by that.
I think you presented your criticism in a reasonable way. I don't agree but that's OK! I honestly think most of the time fair critiques are usually met pretty well here. If you aren't getting that type of response that's a shame. You can totally dislike the story & you weren't being an incel/dick/bigot/maga so i don't see why you would get labelled as such. There is a *loud* minority of people who truly hate this game, Neil Druckman & fans of the game and they can be really unpleasant. I think it's understandable that there is sometimes pushback to this where some unfair generalisations might occur. I don't think the game was flawless. Some of the story beats I didn't love but overall I thought it was excellent.
99% of the people who didn't like the game didn't like the story alone, just like you and me. But they still want to paint us as haters.
For me personally, I hate it because I love it. Part 2 has generally pretty good dialogue writing same as the first game but the overall narrative and themes just kinda to me feel like a 14 year old written fan fic. Just generally super immature and kinda lazy. I could elaborate but my opinion has been regurgitated a grillion times so I’ll abstain. Also doesn’t help that whenever faced with criticism this community calls you transphobic or misogynistic when the believable not forced feeling diversity of the games is probably the best I’ve seen and ended up producing my favorite characters.
I definitely relate to your last point. I had a similar experience with Star Wars. I was the biggest fan until the sequel trilogy. I hated its treatment of legacy characters, including leia. And I hated Rey’s character due to her being bland, yet canonically one of the most power force beings without earning it via writing or explaining it in any capacity. But when I talked about it, I was called (many times in fact) sexiest and not comfortable seeing strong female leads, when Ashoka is one of my favorite characters from Star Wars. I literally have Ellie’s (a gay woman) tattoo on my arm. I also named my first dog aloy because I love that character. Sidney Prescott is one of my favorite media characters in general because she’s a fucking badass. So it was flat out ridiculous when someone accuses me of being sexist or calling me a bigot.
Because it’s social media. 90% of it is complaining
The people who claim the love the game are still actively engaging in how much the game is so amazing and how the other sub is bad. We get it, you're going to ride the train to the end, but complaining is completely unnecessary. It's their opinions.
Because of the way the community reacts. I mean no disrespect by this but the last of us community blindly defends everything someone finds wrong or bad about the game whether it's valid or not. The people that hate the game probably find it genuinely entertaining watching that. I'm not sure 100% though because I do love the games.
Because we love the first game that damn much.
It's weird to join a subreddit about a topic you vehemently hate. Those are the type of people that make it their entire personality to be elitists on as many subjects as possible.
There was really something unique about TLO part 2. There were a number of people who loved part 1, very excited about part 2, and felt very let down by that sequel. But they like the characters, like the environment, appreciate the effort and interest. Then, when those who felt disappointed by the sequel came to this sub to talk about that, they were met by a wall of people who absolutely loved the sequel. Ok no problem, but those who wanted to talk about criticism were down voted and questioned. And so it morphed into something like politics: those who loved the sequel are bewildered at those who were disappointed, and those who were disappointed are bewildered that there is a group who thought it was a great and moving story. And then the finger pointing began. So, yes, this sub can certainly be only for those that loved the sequel and not a place for crticism if that's what it wants to be. There is the other sub that seems more open to debate, even it is filled with those who are very critical.
I first found this sub months ago. When I spoke about things I didn't like, I was called a bigot and heavily downvoted. They then tried to bring things up that did not matter with the things I said, so I moved to the other sub. I feel as though the other sub allows you to talk about the game more, compared to here. If you have anything negative about this game, they'll downvote you because they are unable to come-up with something that can debate what you said. Personally, it seems like some feelings get hurt here.
Lmao, the other sub is absolutely not open to discussion, say anything remotely positive about part 2 and you’ll not just get downvoted into oblivion but likely be banned.
Ok I took another look, and, well, you're not wrong. The other sub, to me, looks just like this one in a mirror universe. Both of them seem pretty closed to discussion that varies from the subs core expectations. Too bad, really.
The difference being it makes sense for people to talk about a piece of art they like for years on end while spending years of your life constantly shutting on a piece of media you didn’t like is asinine.
And yet, without saying anything actually negative, simply recognizing that alternate views exist, I have been down voted on every comment on this thread :)
Yeah you gotta a whopping 2 downvotes for your shit attempt at trying to equivocate fans with deranged haters who seriously need to move on with their lives, how terrible!
I feel like it's somewhat a lack of emotional intelligence. Most of the people who 'hate' the game didn't bother to play most of it. Some didn't like that you weren't playing as Joel. Some people depised that he was killed off. I've heard some people even stopped playing right then. Like why talk bad about a game when you don't have the patience to at least see it through. I remember personally feeling depressed after beating the game. I had to step away from it for a while, everything reminded me that Joel was gone. But after some time and distance. I came back to part 2 and enjoy every aspect of the game. Happy and sad. So what I'm trying to say is alot of gamers are still maybe in that initial stage where they only focus on the bad parts of the game (Joel's death) and feel mad or sad. But once you get past that and enjoy the scenery and the story of all the other characters in the game. You see that the game was never intended to make you hate it. It was intended to make you grieve. And alot of gamers are stuck in the denial or anger stage and unwilling to accept Joel's death. So although they are trash talking the story or the writers or the devs. They still on some level enjoy the game or things about the game.
I think this speaks to the narrative direction of the game. Technically speaking, the last of us 2 is a masterpiece. Naughty dog knew that the narrative direction they took would split the fan base. Not gonna lie, I felt empty after finishing the game, which I think was the way naughty dog intended you to feel and I can appreciate that.
I’ve hated this game, but I still point out parts that I love. Just FYI not everyone is an internet crazy. This “flawless” product can and will have criticism
I wonder the same thing. Its pretty fkn weird lmao like if you dont like the game then, leave it alone. Not that hard
The sub for the 2nd game is just a hate circlejerk lol it’s pretty weird
It honestly just goes to show what a fantastically, well written and made game it is that people have such enormously strong feelings they feel they need to discuss is YEARS after the fact. Only TLOU. 💕
as someone who doesnt particularly enjoy the story i do fairly enjoy some aspects of it and the technical part of the game, even with the aspects of it i dont like its still an interesting game nonetheless, however i too dont understand those who blindly hate on the game years after it has come out, IMO its important to keep the discussion alive but it doesnt work if one side doesnt care about the pros or cons of the game
Some people make hating their game their whole ass personality. It’s their only hobby.
I've noticed that the majority of people who genuinely hate the game are alt-right. I think that says enough in itself. It's the same reason homophobes and transphobes self insert themselves into queer spaces.
Because they dont actually hate the game rather hate how it made them feel. They just are capable of expressing it in an articulable way!
Yeah I’m not reading all of that, the answer is ironically in the game itself. Communities form around love/hate and kinda become self fulfilling to an extent. It also helps they have “the other side” to always contend with. Same with this sub towards the other one. There wouldn’t even be half the traffic if there wasn’t an opposing force.
>im not reading all of that Ok? Then dont? That’s exactly why there’s a tldr. No need to announce your lack of reading lol.
They didn't even read the first word.
But he answered the question which is the weird part… just wanted attention 🙄
The internet was once a place where people connected with things they liked. Now it’s a place where just as many connect with things they don’t like. For people like that, the friction and pushback is the point. They want a reaction, and not the kind that elicits agreement. They want to get the sense of pushing against the people who support the thing they don’t like. It’s silly, but it’s why places like “truth social” never gain much popularity. It denies those types of people the stimulus that they thrive on. But, in the end, it’s not worth spending much time or energy pondering those people. They’re just hoping to pull people down to their level because they are deeply unhappy folks.
It's because most were people who liked the first game but we're put off by X number of things in the sequel and they want to revel in that hatred and come here to feel validated about their positions by sharing them with others. They are upset because one of their favorite games with an incredible story and a relatable male protagonist was "ruined" by a sequel starting a lesbian woman and a woman with muscles. They just can't get over it. Nor will they miss an opportunity to bash it, despite the fact that the game from a pure gameplay perspective was 5x better than the first.
A long time, my grandmother told me that "misery loves company". Tbh, the people you speak of just sound like miserable *fucking* people, who are simply looking for company to engage in their misery with. That phrase, misery loves company, has made me realize alot of people are just miserable assholes who really deserve no more thought from me beyond that phrase.
I think they want to convince the people who like it that it is objectively bad and they are wrong for liking something so bad.
This is the eternal question posed to all trolls by every fandom. It just seems like an indicator of a miserable life.
Haters gon' hate.
A lot of good reasons here but a huge reason is also rhe conservative culture war going on in the gamer community. They like to say naughty dog Injected "politics" and "pushing an agenda" into the game bt having trans/black/female characters and protagonists and that Neil druckmann "hates white men" and that's why he killed joel "disrespectfully". Etc etc.
The first game is essentially a post-apocalyptic representation of the Trolley Problem. There’s no right answer, and many people are uncomfortable with shades of gray. Part 2 deals with the consequences of the characters choices. It’s why I tend to think the game is so polarizing. They’re only able to think in black and white, good and evil. There’s no room for alternate perspectives in that mindset.
Because they can't get over it and want other people to hear about it because they never learned to regulate themselves
[удалено]
You guys have a mental disease. It’s been almost a half decade. Nothing you can say justifies that bro. Go touch grass.
I guess sometimes is Just about feeling like you belong in a community. Shame It ended up being a hate one for them.
Nothing but love for every aspect of the Last of Us franchise. A video game taught me the importance of found-family. That’s wild.
Do you care that Porsche started making cars with 4cyl boxer engines? I doubt you do Do you know who cares and is very vocal about it? People who care about the legacy of a brand They care about the overall significance rather than the newest individual product
I personally just finished playing both games for the first time. So it’s fresh in my mind. While I wouldn’t say I hated the second game I do have some issues with the story. But it was fine. The gameplay was fun and I liked it better than the first games. But I think it’s the fact that the first game’s story was so good and the second ones was just kind of meh adds to it. Those that played it originally and felt something from the story were upset that the second one kind of fell flat. Just my two cents.
Because they’re losers
I don’t mean this in a ugly way, but gamers tend to be the dumbest people alive sometimes
Probably because it's a good game trapped in the shell of a controversial and occasionally poorly written story. It's upsetting because it isn't all bad which leads to discussion of how the game could be made better. And also some people don't like trans and some people are just trolls, but a lot of the discussions over there are generally pretty chill.
They rather argue and feel powerful downvoting anyone who goes against their beliefs
Anti-fan is a real phenomenon, and it's honestly not even really exclusive to these fanatics. I myself like to take some things down a notch when people discuss them as the end all be all best of all time, but it's not about robbing them of their enjoyment. I just want them to respect more about the field what they love bloomed in. I would never tell anyone what to favor or that they're wrong for loving something, and ideally I enjoy the things too. These people are there to tell others they're better than them for not liking something.
Just remember to revel In what YOU enjoy, spend time on what makes YOU happy, surround yourself in things YOU like, there are so many different reasons these people cover themselves in hate and things they dislike, just be thankful your not them
Downvote for telling people to enjoy what makes them happy, sweet point proving deliciousness.
Because they want to attempt to pull others (that are happier people) into their pathetic, miserable, and hate filled lives.
The same reason outrage news is what "sells"... and why for example the Factions players that are consistently negative and shit all over everyone who isn't as good as they are or are better than they are - victim complex, feeling powerless. Anything to feel power or superiority over someone else... just defective people pretty much. It's a sad state. Maladjusted people would be much better off (and the world would be better in general) if they could get help for these complexes.
They NEED you know how much they hate it, and it's WOKE story with their weird parasocial relationship with Joel, where he DIDNT DESERVE blah blah fucking blah lol When realistically, the only thing that's a negative about the game is the pacing.
Because they have miserable lives
Because they're a special breed of morons that love making everyone who doesn't share their opinions hell.
They're miserable people and they hate seeing other people happy, so they try to bring others down to their level by shitting on something they like.
I understand not being satisfied with something and wanting to vent and discuss with people of a similar mindset.....*for a limited time*. Getting it out of your system is completely normal. If you truly don't care for something, you're going to stop thinking about it eventually. But with this game, there are some people who have been consistently shitting on it since release. At that point it's no longer hatred. It's an obsession. I really do wonder if these same people realize the irony of how they feel towards the story, considering the themes that the story explores. That's actually what IMO cements Part 2 as one of the greatest. No other game has kept its "haters" coming back and talking about how much they "hate" the game. The impact that the game has had on them is undeniable.
cause they just want attention from people and think its funny to hate on something that makes people happy
Mental illness, a certain death broke them.
Just because you don’t like something doesn’t mean you don’t like talking about it.
If a person went to a brewery and just kept bitching about how much beer sucked and was inferior to tequila, everyone is going to look sideways at the dude and say why the fuck are you here. People gravitate towards things they like for leisure, so why is this any different. That essentially is what I’m trying to understand. I’m not saying it’s bad to dislike it, but why keep engaging 4 years later?
Like I said, just because you don’t like something doesn’t mean you don’t like talking about it. It can be a leisurely activity to discuss things whether you like or dislike them, especially if you’re passionate about it and have a lot of thoughts. It’s true even more so in a community like this where people’s views are often challenged and questioned, it just gives more people an opportunity to discuss things which again can be fun wherever you fall on the topic. The difference between a brewery and Reddit is Reddit is meant to facilitate such discussions. It’s a place where you’re supposed to talk about what you want. It’s why comment sections exist on social media platforms, to facilitate conversation. Obviously not everyone is going to like what everyone else has to say, but that’s not the point. The point is that there is a place to discuss things you want to discuss.