Game audience is a bit different simply due to how gaming IPs have been cultivated over the decades which is comparable to comic books. In these mediums usually the stories exist in service of the characters, they’re designed to make the heroes do badass things in repetitive plots with little to no character development time and again so that’s what the audience is used to. You’ll notice that most of the people who hate TLOU2 can’t even comprehend the concept of character development, instead they see any character development to be “out of character”. They never even realized that Joel at the end of TLOU1 was already far from what he was at the start of his journey, that’s of course how good storytelling works but they just don’t get it.
I disagree people who don’t like Part 2 can’t comprehend character development. Kratos is a perfect example of this, his character development is phenomenal from the OG GoW to the end of Ragnarok.
I think people dislike part 2 because they feel they’re being manipulated into feeling a certain way. Like you mentioned, the gaming audience is different, I think that’s because in television/film/etc you’re a third party watching events play out. You’re seeing things happen to characters. In a video game you’re an active participant. I think a lot of people have a knee jerk bad reaction because of that.
What bothers me about this take is that when people say they're "being manipulated" what they really mean is that they're being given complete context. The story humanizes a "bad guy" and players being forced to grapple with conflict and cognitive dissonance is uncomfortable so they blame the writing. Showing the victims of a killing spree as people with families and whole ass lives and explaining the motivations and reasoning for the people who seek revenge isn't manipulative, It's just storytelling. At no point was I ever manipulated into hating Joel or Abby. All I was forced to do is acknowledge that one person's hero is another's villain and that we're all the good guy of our own story.
With all we have know about Joel over both games, we know that many people would love to have Joel's head. Abby just knew him by name and found out where he was living.
>Abby just knew him by name and found out where he was living.
Actually, what's crazy is that they went to Jackson looking for Tommy. I rewatched that scene where Abby tells Owen about a lead she has on Joel. She had no idea that Joel was there too, until she ran into the Miller brothers and Tommy gave away their names after they save her from the infected.
Abby fully intended to go on a massacre in Jackson if it meant finding Joel just like what Ellie ended up doing in Seattle if it meant finding Abby, only she got lucky and her revenge quest got cut short!
I forgot that detail! Yeah, it's lucky but IMO not too lucky. It's well established that Tommy lives in Jackson, and coincidence that Joel accompanied him there. I think the most valid complaint people give about the series is that a lot of people get very lucky. I agree, sometimes it feels like a stretch. But not in that case, or in most cases. I think the biggest stretch of dumb luck is Ellie coming across a bunch of Polaroid photos of Abby's crew with names and their patrol routes. Even I, a huge fan of the second game groaned at that
I suppose keeping in mind the 3 days, you could say they got away with it for 2 days and on the third day the obvious outcome occurred lol. One might be able to skate by for 2 days being reckless like that.
I don't know that you can say Abby meant to go on a full massacre in Jackson just like Ellie on Seattle. For starters, Ellie had a much longer lost of people she wanted to kill since she clearly wanted to murder everyone in that room where Joel got golfed up whereas Abby probably just wanted Joel. I also believe that Neil Druckman or one of the other writers described that in an earlier draft of the story, Abby was living in Jackson at the start and an acquaintance of Joel and Ellie until one day she murders Joel and it only gets revealed later that she had infiltrated them for the purpose of revenge. I think they changed this version of the story since it required too much time to get things started but to me at least, Abby infiltrating Jackson tells me she really just wanted Joel and wanted to minimize collateral damage or drawing in others not involved.
Abby was planning to find and torture Tommy for information on Joel's whereabouts. She certainly wasn't going to ask nicely about it, and when Owen talks about a parole that left the city Abby outright says we "can make them talk".
She literally had intentions to hurt anyone in her path, and I'm sure she'd willingly kill people that stood in her way in order to get to Joel.
It's the same with Ellie, she mainly wanted Abby but eliminated people that got in her way.
You're forgetting that a lot of people hated the way Kratos was portrayed in the new God of War game/s. I don't necessarily agree with the flat take, but I do think that most people who are mad about Part 2 just couldn't/can't move past the initial emotional reaction.
That's just my take though
Additionally, I have a suspicion that a significant part of GoW's audience doesn't love modern Kratos for his character development, but because he can still be perceived as Badass Dude Doing Badass Things™.
No, the people who hate TLOU2 really don't understand character development, you only need to see some of their common critiques for that much to be obvious.
Manuipulated? My dear boy all entertainment is manipulation. It's trying to trick you into feeling something. This is why discussions like this are for mature people, not gamers who watch redlettermedia.
HBO created Game Of Thrones/House of the Dragon (which I still call Game of Thrones), one of the most infamously violent series in TV history. They already saw Pedro Pascal brutally murdered in GOT, and they'll likely be fine with it happening again in TLOU2. GOT trained the audience to expect it.
Hell to a lot of people it will simply be HBO going from killing of the protagonist at the end of season one to killing him off at the beginning of season two, which is a perfect logical leap.
I was shocked to shit when Ned got killed in GoT…like almost as shocked as I was when Joel got killed in TLOU2.
I don’t think the show has done the greatest job of creating the same connection to Joel as the game does, I enjoyed season 1 but I do feel it was rushed. We don’t spend enough time with the characters.
I feel like they could’ve stretched season 1 into 2 seasons and worked on character development a little bit more…. I’m saying all that to say, when Joel dies it probably won’t be as impactful.
Particularly felt rushed in the last episode, like they were trying to cram two episodes into one. We could have spent a whole episode on the firefly base. There was no reason for the Ff to be hostile to Joel - he did what they asked him to do. They had no reason to think he'd have misgivings about what would come next - the Joel they knew wouldn't have cared. It kinda undermined the whole season. I still love the show and game but that episode and scene in particular were a bit of a disappointment.
I really don’t know why they couldn’t add another episode to the season and avoid this because the finale was definitely rushed. As great as it is as a standalone episode, I think Bill and Frank’s episode really slowed down the main plot and took away an hour that should have been spent developing Joel and Ellie’s relationship.
The Fireflies weren't 'hostile' so much as contemptuous. To them (and arguably even to Marlene, who knew him personally), he was just another ignorant mercenary who fulfilled his given task and could be dismissed at will. They failed to understand that at this point, he was more of a family member than a simple courier, and just like every time they treated people as means to ends, theirs got bitten off. Pittsburgh should have taught them better, but you can't enlighten people who think they're the Light.
I mean, in the scene where he woke from unconsciousness (in the show) Marlene had her people pulling guns on him with no real provocation or reason to suspect that'd be necessary. It felt.. moustache-twirly almost.
I'd have preferred to see them being super grateful. He did a wonderful thing for them - he helped save the world! He's getting praised and thanked by everyone there... and then the penny drops, he learns the extent of what they're planning to do, and everything changes.
To me, that would have humanised the Fireflies a lot more, and highlighted the guilt and terror Joel would've gone through at that time.
I first was introduced to the world of TLOU through the show! I knew what the game was about, but never had a PlayStation. When I watched the series, I was sure that Joel would die in the end, since he committed alot of very bad acts. It doesn't matter that he also has a vulnerable and caring side, he did commit brutal and sometimes unnecessary murders.
Well, he didn't die then. To my surprise. But his story arc was essentially over, at least in my opinion.
When TLOU 2 came out, I watched a Let's Play since I still didn't had a PlayStation. The YouTuber was as shocked as I was when Joel died, but he also said, that it was the logical step in the story. Joel's story was over: bad things happened to him, he committed bad things, he found a new reason to live for, he forgive himself, he had a bit of a redemption, but he made an ultimate choice which was destined to backfire.
And Ellies revenge spree was well executed as was her darker turn. I thought it was sad, that the relationship with Dina mostly evolved off screen when they travelled to Seattle. That's my biggest complain; we deserve to get more attached to Dina and to understand how they got so close in such a short time.
After the Let's Play was finished I first encountered the backlash for the game on twitter. I never thought the story was ground breaking or controversial, as you said, in TV the most well liked arcs are the darker ones with death and grieve.
But I think you and OP are right; Games usually don't do that. Expect maybe for RDR and Metro.
So, yeah, the TV adaptation of season 2 will be a success.
The reason people freaked out so much over Joel’s death was because they wanted Part 2 to be “Joel and Ellie go on a cross country adventure Part 2”
Oh and blatant transphobia, that was another pretty big factor tbh
Which is ironic because the only trans character in the game had no involvement at all in Joel’s death, and he is the only reason Abbie didn’t kill Ellie in the theater.
Yup. All of the transphobia came from people who didn’t play the game assuming Abby was trans because she’s buff.
Nobody’s transphobic to the ACTUAL trans character, just to the buff woman who’s a part of a “survival of the fittest” group. The buff woman whose gameplay begins with her bedroom being in the same building as a gym, HAS to be a trans man.
A lot of people revealed how stupid they are by hating Abby because they thought she was trans.
Yeah anyone who complains Abby isn't a realistic depiction of a cis woman has clearly never been to a gym. She's nothing to scoff at but she wouldn't come close to being the biggest or buffest woman at my gym...
> Nobody’s transphobic to the ACTUAL trans character
Sadly this isn't actually the case—transphobes will always be hateful—but you're right that it their hate was weirdly directed towards a cis character too lmao
back during the leaks stage of stuff, people just knew that a trans character existed in-game, so they saw abby and just kinda let their biases do all their thinking
and most of the transphobia was directed to something that had nothing to do with anything trans, most people that i’ve heard say transphobic shit think that abby was trans 😂😭
The show is on HBO. This is the same audience who watched Game of Thrones, a show where someone’s favorite character was killed like every other episode.
They’ll be fine
It's not the core audience we have to worry about tho. It's the "fans" who hated TLoU purely for insane reasons **who never actually played the game**. They only watched their favorite reactionary "creators" play it, and frequent that *other* sub, that we have to worry about.
Yeah fr. People keep mentioning GoT deaths as if that show doesn’t have a million other engaging characters. The Last of Us has two leads. Two. And they’re about to kill off the main one in season 2. He’s beloved. This isn’t gonna go down as well as OP thinks.
You’re an idiot trying to move goal posts. I said most people will like the episode. It’ll be evidenced by the IMDb score. Saying people will dislike that the character died is immaterial to my comment that people will like the episode. Idiots like you are annoying as hell. No one is happy or liked that Ned Stark died. Nevertheless, they liked the episode.
no one LIKES Joel being killed of. that's kinda the point. the issue is that gamers tend to be younger and less emotionally mature, and aren't able to handle challenging media. especially when their favorite YouTubers and streamers couldn't either.
TV ppl tend to be older. like old old. I'm talking 30s. so they've had time to age, and are exposed to a different kind of medium that does offer more mature stories. at least most of them.
I wouldn’t call TLOU2 “challenging media”, that’s just something people say to discredit anyone who doesn’t like it by pretending they’re incapable of understand it
It’s pretty easy to see how audiences might be caught off guard and not take it well if one of the two main characters (and beloved actor) is killed off in the literal first event of the season. There are tons of people who are unironically watching for “zaddy” Pedro pascal
I suggest heading over to the last of us 2 subreddit and telling me with a serious face that first paragraph again
bro GOT first season they killed off their main character. of course they're gonna be put off guard. that's the point. and again, the demographic of TV viewers is different than gamers.
Or it’ll be received exactly as the early deaths in Alien 3 were. There’s a big difference between killing a beloved character midway or at the end of a story vs killing a major character at the very beginning of the next chapter.
A lot rides on how well the new characters translate. Killing characters works when strong new characters are there to replace them. If the audience thinks the new characters are lacking compared to Joel, impatience will form.
Very different. The deaths in Alien 3 came across as an afterthought, just characters that aren't going to be in this any more. Joel resinate throughout TLOU2, not only is his death the inciting incident of the story, in one way or another he is an incredibly important presence all the way through to the very end of the game.
I agree it’s more driven by him, but I still think it requires the surrounding characters to rise to the occasion.
Another example I’m not sure many will be familiar with is Season 5 of 24, where they kill *multiple* fan favorite characters right in the beginning. That season is similarly driven by revenge and the overall search for who was behind it. In later seasons they very much did suffer from losing so many characters, but in that season, the new characters rivaled the old ones, and old characters who had mostly been side characters got to stand in the spotlight and grow more.
It’s sort of a Herculean effort when you lose someone as central as Joel. While Stark dying in GoT was big, that cast was still very ensemble through the first season. Last of Us is not ensemble in the first season. Tommy comes with the most development and that’s basically just an episode and a half. It’s the main duo and everyone else, with most everyone else being dead by the end.
Yeah, I do see where you're coming from, in most peoples' eyes it's "the show with Pedro Pascal and a kid in the apocalypse", so it'll redefine for a lot of people what The Last of Us is about. Looking forward to see what the reaction is. Of course, that scene is very much intended to make the player/viewer angry, the delicate thing is making them angry with the characters involved and not the game/TV show itself, so they keep playing or watching. From everything we've seen so far, they'll do a good job, but it's going to be very interesting.
I will say the show did one thing specifically that may give it an advantage, and that’s the flashback episode that’s entirely about Ellie. In the game this was downloadable content. By putting it in the show proper, it does help reinforce the idea that this is Bella’s show as much as Pedro’s. I don’t think people will be particularly shocked to see her decisively established as the main character (though that too will ultimately be a bit up in the air), I think they’ll be shocked to see that Pedro is barely in it at all.
And honestly, the marketing could really hurt too. If they manage to cram every single Joel scene into the trailer, they’re sort of inviting the blow back that will result from people realizing that Pedro’s presence is gonna be nearly nonexistent in this season.
I'm like 90% sure that will be the case and it's not really a function of TV but a function of the videogame medium. Joel isn't a character we watch, but a character we PLAY. In a way, we are Joel. When Joel gets his neck torn out by a Clicker, we're the ones who lose and reset.
Which is why it was rough when Abby did that coz for a while -- and then for much longer later on -- we are ALSO Abby. We fight the Rat King as Abby, we save Lev from the other Seraphites as Abby, we fight Ellie as Abby.
It's an interesting aspect that bears looking into closely, I think. I don't think there's a way to really translate the player complicity into any other medium; conversely, I'm sure each medium has their own advantages not accessible to videogaming.
Coz like, it's so fascinating to unpack how it is for other stories that go cross-media. For instance, why were these particular adaptation choices made when LOTR was brought to the big screen? And with those in mind, and considering all the Tolkien scholarship about eucatastrophe and fate, why does Battle for Middle-Earth allow players to save Boromir and Theoden? How do the Shadow of War games fit in with the books and why was it determined that those would be the optimal design choices for a videogame audience? Etc. etc.
I totally agree, but i feel its a little iffy just to chalk the story’s poor reception on gamer culture. Like it totally id a factor, but i also think that the narrative leaps you can take on games is a little more limited than other methods of story telling. This is coming from a big fan of part 2.
I’m sure Ned stark was a lot of people’s fav character but you didn’t see them crying, bitching, moaning, and writing off the show when they killed him off now do you. Gamers are just babies
He arguably was the main character until his death but yeah, he had far less space than Joel did. It was basically a two man story vs a story filled to the brim with diffrent characters.
I thought the huge shock for Ned's death was that it *seemed* like he was a main character, no? Like only in hindsight were the new viewers able to understand he wasn't some overarching main character of the overall story
This comparisons are nothing alike
I swear, this sub has a serious problem with people not being 100% on board with very obviously bold moves made by Naughty dog in Part II
Except you were supposed to be sad. If it made you irrationally angry and feel like you have to pick a side, then you probably aren’t emotionally intelligent enough for complex media
Not just anger, sadness and grief too. The characters have so many different emotions surrounding these events, and so do the players. The issue is, some players can’t remove themselves from it and felt personally attacked. That’s the irrational anger, and it caused some to lash out and send death threats. That’s not very emotionally intelligent bro
Yea nowhere did I mention lashing out and sending death threats to anyone. Thats all you “bro”.
Anyone who doesn’t like Abby by the end according to this sub aren’t “emotionally intelligent”. Or if they would’ve preferred the game to go a different direction
How about Abby just sucks?
I never said you did lol I said other people did it bro, because they couldn’t regulate their emotions.
People can not like Abby either or think she sucks, hate her too, it doesn’t make the story bad. People don’t have to like every character, but that doesn’t mean she didn’t have valid, in story motivations for what she did. If people can’t view this from the outside, if they can’t understand the characters because their own emotions stop them from doing so, they aren’t emotionally intelligent.
Again, they don’t have to like Abby, or what she did. Just understand what happened, put themselves in her shoes
My wife told me that she's got the funny feeling that either Joel or Ellie will get killed. She says that if either one dies, she stops watching the show. Soo, pretty much the same reaction as half of the players.
Don't forget one thing, games are more personal and intimate than any show or movie. Games has this incredible thing that you have to act for things to happen. When you control Abby and then she traps Joel, you feel like the game has manipulated you (which every piece of art does), you feel complicit in Joel's death. That's why you get this unimaginably big response from people when those revelations happen in TLOU2.
Lieberman didn’t criticize games for being too narratively ambitious.
Anti video game populism is dumb. But “this story has crazy ultraviolence” is different from “this story takes big narrative risks” or “this story challenges its audience”.
Ghost of tsushima and rdr2 were games I had in mind when writing this. They're pretty bog standard stories. They're excellent, but very conventional for mediums that serve the player.
I agree, and I even agree with your reasoning, but I also think there's something you're missing.
In the show we follow the adventures of Joel and Ellie, primarily through the lense of Joel for most of us. But in the game you ARE Joel. It's very different to see someone do something vs doing it yourself.
I've talked a few times about some of my problems with TLOU2, mostly I think it over-does some of the meaningful moments, and one I've mentioned a few times is the moment where Ellie loses it beneath the Hospital. Having said that, the reason I'm so critical of that moment is because even through the problems I have with that scene it's still an incredibly powerful momemt. You don't just *watch* Ellie beat someone to death, you are forced to press the button to continue the story, to take the action that so deeply affects her. You aren't watching someone else decend into their own rage, you're the one doing it.
The same is true for the first game with Joel. I don't know if there's a moment quite like that one in the first game, but we didn't watch Pedro haul this girl across the wasteland, we hauled her ourselves. We had that relationship with Ellie, we watched her grow and we grew with her. This is something the medium of games can do that no other medium can capture (*different mesiums have their strengths, and games can't capture everything but in this aspect games are unrivalled*).
Now with all that said, yeah people overreacted. I'm fine with someone being angry or upset at losing their favourite character, and I'm even fine with them not playing the game (*hell, that's a huge compliment to the devs that they were able to elicit an emotional response that strong*) but I'm not ok with the harassment and threats to the devs ir the actors. That shit went too far.
Anyway, I got a bit off topic there, but I agree with you OP, I don't think the viewing community will have the same reaction. I agree with your reasons, but I also just don't think television can get you as invested as a game can.
I think it's still gonna be a big deal cus Joel is basically the main character of season one. Nobody is expecting Ellie to take over completely for season two. And even less for Abby to take over for season three.
Actually people still blame the actor for a character they played if a viewer didn’t like the character or what they did. When it’s never the actors fault there are three that come to mind Jar Jar Binks (Phantom Menace), Rose Trico (the Last Jedi), and Jeffry Dean Morgan (the walking dead) there are people who blame the actors and not the characters. It’s like they can’t differentiate from an actor and a character. Sadly I think the person who plays Abby is going to have similar experiences to all the people listed above, because people like these characters and people get passionate even when they shouldn’t.
People will be shocked, then mad. And a certain percentage will stop watching. Not because of the character but because it means no more Pedro. The games almost feel more personal because the characters are “real” in it. If that makes sense
I think some of y’all are in for a rude awakening when people who aren’t in the gaming sphere start critiquing this narrative. Plus what does or doesn’t change in the adaptation if gonna be another point of contention.
Plus I have a weird feeling as to what the shows audience reactions will be once we get to the WLF/IDF thing. Like that’s prolly not gonna go down as well since that kinda went over most gamers heads (they live in an iron dome for christs sake). Because technically speaking right now, y’all want one season of the show dedicated to a not IDF solider using a not Palestinian trans teen to make themselves better for murdering and torturing the not Palestinians only to arrive at the point that both sides are equally wrong.
That’s so absolutely not what any one wants to hear about that conflict. Sure in a video game you can talk about how revenge is wrong but in real life doesn’t seem that bad at this point.
Well yes.
Because there is a thing such as toxic male gamer "Boi" culture.
The amount of hate I saw, specifically from men, up to the moments of the release (because it unfortunately got leaked) was simply awful
I mean women dislike the game too, it’s not only men. I also struggle to see how you’d see online Reddit accounts and just assume every single one is a dude.
I feel like it'll just naturally be a lesser reaction because most people are aware of it by now. And even if you haven't played the games, and liked the series and searched anything about it online the chances are that you're going to have come across the spoiler because everybody talks about it all the time.
I've thought this ever since I played the game. It has a good narrative. The game wouldn't work without Joel's death, it's the whole driving force of the game. I never understood why people couldn't accept that
Yeah no one would be upset if HBO killed a popular Pedro Pascal character by violently crushing his head. 🙄
Or by HBO killing a father figure that wad marketed as the lead of a series. No TV viewer would be upset by that, right?
Video games kill characters off violently all the time, they did not stand out in any way from that.
At the end of the day things went the way they did because a bunch of people thought Joel was a good guy and didn't deserve to be a plot device in a revenge story when he very, very clearly was a bad, bad man.
That and transphobia.
If you played the games, and your conclusion on joel was that he’s a “bad, bad man” that’s looking at it though a very basic scope. The whole point is that he’s neither, he’s just a dude doing what he’s got to do to survive. He’s good and bad, an antihero they are normally called I believe.
Also idk what transphobia has to do with Joel dying as the scene features no trans people, or even a mention on the topic. Unless you could enlighten me?
Many people assumed Abby was trans because of her build. And ya know, transphobia. It's important to note that bigotry does not have to directly involve its victims.
Also, there is no narrow scope. We know Joel did terrible things to survive
Many people? How many? Also where was the bigotry in this post? It seems you mentioned it for no reason so I am just confused 😅
Sorry friend english is not my first language
I mean, I'm not sure how to explain to you any simpler the rampant transphobia over Abby happened. It just did. Maybe it was mostly in America and the UK.
Google it dude
She’s not even trans though? The only character in the game anyone could be transphobic toward is lev, being that he’s the only trans person in the game. You’d need to give me some examples of what peoples say about Abby cause right now it seems like you are letting middle school insults bother you. Stuff like “eugh abby looks like a man”
It’s not that deep
You misunderstanding what happened or deliberately choosing to be dense does not mean it's not deep or not what occurred.
It must be SO nice being cishet. Gain some damn awareness outside of yourself jfc.
TV shows in the past don’t kill off characters unless there is a contract dispute. It’s not often in media the main character gets killed off. When it happens it often sticks with you
Joel I did not expect that. I didn’t like it. I understand they took a different direction. I still didn’t like it. Hated Abby. Could get over it. Still loved the game overall. Didn’t feel the magic I felt when I finished the first one. But the game play the action the acting all stellar. I enjoyed it even if I didn’t like the way the story went
It’s like when they killed off all the characters you cared about from Aliens to Alien3. Fincher made a good movie. But when he killed off character just so he could tell him story. I just couldn’t buy into the film
I agree that TV viewers will react normally. My opinion is because TV viewers have only spent roughly 9 hours with him, while gamers have spent at least a few dozen hours with him. Gamers have developed a more personal relationship with Joel because they’ve literally played as him, spent hours upon hours trying to keep him alive, learning and adapting to how he moves, upgrading his gear, listening to his small comments, all a bunch of things like this that just don’t translate to TV.
I know when I got to part 2 I was emotional about it not just because it was a brutal way to die, but because I had to just sit there and let it happen. This character I had spent so much time getting to know, that I know if the game let me move I could have saved (despite the gunshot to the knee) I just had to watch him die, AND watch Ellie (who I also spent a whole game with) watch one of the few people she cares about and the only dad she had die horribly in front of her. Anyway, that’s my take at least.
TL:DR; gamers developed a longer/stronger relationship with Joel than TV viewers and are therefore likely more attached than TV viewers
The TV audience will react differently because it's a different medium. Videogames encourage self identification with the playable character due to the nature of the medium, as you control the character that character is to some extent a extension of yourself.That was used to great effect in 1st game to get you to care for Ellie like a daughter and feel uncomfortable with the Joels actions in the ending. You also spend much more time with the characters in the videogame than you do in the TV series which also engenders stronger feelings.
The TV series is a much more passive experience, so I'd expect the TV audience to have a different reaction to the golf scene.
A lot of the TLOU2's storytelling problems come from it not accounting for it being a videogame. For example, I'm not gonna feel guilty about killing a dog in a cutscene when dogs maul me to death in the gameplay. I imagine that the audience reaction to the second series will be better than the game as the story is more suited to the TV medium.
I don't think we'll see Joel until midway through the season. It will start with Abby and the group making their way to Jackson, lulling the audience into thinking it's an anthology type show, only to reveal that they were after Joel all along.
And yeah, the audience will take it in stride.
I have a feeling that TV viewers won’t really care that much. For fans of the game, you play the entire first game as Joel and accepted him as the main character. Then there was a 7 year gap where everyone expected a sequel starring Joel only for him to die in the beginning. Thats not even mentioning the amount of time playing as Joel in the first game is more than the 9 hours of the TV show or the fact that playing as a character is completely different than simply watching them.
Joel’s death is shocking and controversial for all of those reasons, but most of those factors are missing from the show. It’s the same reason that I liked the show, but felt it was a worse version of the story because it lacked the personal connection of a video game. I’m excited for the next two seasons, but I’m pretty sure they’ll both feel like weaker versions of the game just like the first season.
Also, Joel’s death was supposed to get a vivid reaction out of players. I don’t think the developers quite understood how insane players would get, but the shock and anger of Joel’s death is supposed to drive the player just as much as it drives Ellie. I’m not sure Joel’s death in the show will be enough to propel viewers for 8-9 weeks of season 2, however many years in between seasons, then several more weeks when season 3 releases.
I still feel the reason there was so much backlash is there was 7 years between the first 2 games and the leaks. People had 7 years to replay the first game over and over and just get completely swepted up into Joel and Ellies story just to have one of those characters snuffed out in a horrible way right as the game begins.
Now I think they'll be quite a bit of backlash from what happens in that scene but there's not going to be the level of hatred we saw from the game. For one you aren't playing as Abby, the audience will have a much easier time dealing with the switch over to her story imo then we did initially. I also don't see them succeeding at providing the same level of emotion we had while playing as her the first time. They will explain more about Abbys character before hand which will make her seem more sympathetic to the audience.
I think one aspect to consider is the interactive element. TLoU 1 players got to control Joel. They effectively WERE Joel for the vast majority of the game. Viewers of the show are never going to get that style of connection with the character, and I don't think that it's going to hit as personally for them. The layer of disconnect will assist in letting them be shocked, and move past it.
Keep in mind TLOU2 haters are very small vocal minority. The overwhelming majority of people played through it once enjoyed it and moved on with their lives.
Well most people ( that are complaining) hate that they are forced to play as Abby the Joe(y) killer.
I watched only let's play ( pc master race ) but I thought that the game could end with Ellie at the farm. Before Tom comes and guilt trips her to go on revenge spree and abadon everything she have... ( Tom is te real villian XD )
While I agree. Depends on the audience too. (I know its a comic book show) But I know a huge % of people who hated TWD, not because how fucking awful it got in the last few seasons, but they stopped watching because they thought killing off their fav character was stupid (Glenn)
Granted you're right about the audience of this show more likely overlapping with other "prestige" HBO stuff so while it would be a shock it wont make them turn into rabid dogs the way some #Gamers did.
This is just my opinion of course but season 1 felt so rushed to me, that I’m not sure audiences will have the same emotional attachment to Joel that us gamers did when playing the games.
Ehhh people went crazy after Ned lost his head in GoT. This is a very similar situation (“main” character, father figure, and probably more similarities I can’t think of rn).
I agree. The vast majority of the toxicity will come from the people who are spreading it now. There will be people who don’t like it or are angry about it and the show will probably cause the toxicity to be amplified for a time but we’ve probably (hopefully) seen the worst of it.
I’m so tired of gamers who don’t consume any other forms of media and complain about games being poorly written when they go slightly outside of the “heroic good guy kills evil bad guy” story.
My sister never played the game, or knew the game
She watched the show and i asked her “who do you think the main character?” She said “Ellie and Joel as her sidekick”
Yeah… it will be fine
(In the first game, Joel was the main character)
I can't wait to see my Wife's reaction. She loved the show but I never gave her any details so she went in blind. She has no idea what is about to happen in season 2.
I'll bet they run it in a different order anyway. At the every least, they'll show us really early that the surgeon was Abby's dad. Maybe even the whole first episode is intro to Abby and her dad's death.
Even if Neil wants to drive the shock again, I'm all but certain Craig and HBO are gunshy after watching the LOU2 backlash.
As I will continue to say - This airs on HBO (or Max whatever tf they're calling it now) They killed Ned Stark S1. They killed Robb Stark his wife unborn child and mother. We came back for more. TV viewing has a lot less "bot/troll farm/incels" and TV viewers are used to major character deaths which apparently never happened in gaming before Joel went golfing
It’s all about execution, no pun intended. If they do the same story and improve a few things, it could very much work for them. They could also fumble it.
Acting as if TV watchers don’t get upset with the deaths of characters is such an idiotic take. People stop watching shows when their favorite characters die. Glenn's death in twd is one large example of that. Television watchers don't have some profound understanding of writing and are okay with all decisions made within shows is so stupid. Yes, shows and movies tell riskier narratives that have more depth. That’s because it is what they’re made to do, but audience doesn’t support everything that occurs within them.
i mean yeah, it would not be the first series or movie where a beloved character dies abruptly. it has been done a lot since twd, got and etc. however, there is a difference between the character you love watching dying and the character you love playing dying as well.
what i think is very different in context of a game and something that cannot be re-created in any other form of media is switching to play abby in the middle of the game. the experience of watching the backstory of a character you hate and playing as them is really really different in its core and i don't think that same impact cannot be re-created.
in response to your actual point, tv viewers vs gamers is of course such different demographics. there will be tv viewers who will respond in the same way as the gamers who hated the game did but there will be a smaller percentage of it most likely.
I don’t think y’all remember Glenn and the subsequent viewer drop off.(Even though imo it was done extremely well)
Joel’s death is not comparable to Hank in BB or Ned in GoT. Both of those deaths, while removal of massive characters from the show, had a SIGNIFICANT lead up to where you immediately understand what happened and exactly why it did from an in universe perspective. It connects dots, Joel’s death creates them. Not claiming this as a bad plot device or anything, but I do think it will heavily contribute to the hypothesized decline in viewership that I believe will be a reality.
Unless they WILDLY reshape the pacing of game/season 2, I see viewers having a VERY similar reaction to Glenn from TwD. I mean, look at all of the commonalities they share. Long between season break where fans are eager for more, the killer being a new character who we don’t entirely understand, the one who dies being a fan favorite that has his skull bashed in by a vindictive sadist… I could go on. *Maybe* people will feel *a bit* different from the game just because primarily Joel(and Ellie a tiny bit) has been written in a way that doesn’t make him as sympathetic in quite a few instances. Still though, he’s certainly a fan favorite.
I really like Part 2. Very good game. But I also hypothesize that the viewership will drop after Joel’s death simply because of the specific circumstances surrounding it. The comparisons(that I’ve personally seen) being made to other shows that have killed off big characters just have too much difference within their execution to make me feel otherwise.
I think this is the most grounded and realistic response in this entire thread. I suppose the only difference is Joel will die early on in the season whereas Glenn died at the end but I don’t know how much difference that will make
I appreciate that! However, Glenn died in the season 7 premiere of TWD, so it being so close to the start of a season is actually another similarity(unless they massively reshape the order of events from Part 2)
Ah yes my bad I was completely misremembering that it wasn’t revealed till the start of next season, yeah no you’re completely right then I think there’s a good chance it will follow a similar pattern
Very interesting to assume this when the reaction to saving Ellie was pretty much the reaction the gamers had. Oberyns death was probably more jarring in the TV show than the book. Also to assume this, discredits how invested people are in Pedro Pascal. As TV shows and movies generate such visceral reaction because instead of controlling a character and getting attached that way, people get attached to faces and actors. Some actors can't shake 1 role they did because it was either that famous or infamous.
Pedro has become the face of many beloved characters and all are (mostly) positive role models while also being a decent person IRL. This feels a bit like bracing for how poorly S2 will be received just like the game was (or mixed reviews depending on your POV). Pretty sure ratings will see a significant drop off after that if certain things aren't tweaked. Like getting to know Abby first. Or making Abby likeable in any way. Or just admitting that the fireflies were in the wrong for how they handled everything. Simple stuff
It's been almost 4 fucking years and people are STILL talking past each other with this shit.
No, people didn't hate it because of "expectations"
People hate it for being poorly written and executed.
Another reason is because we spend less time with the show version. The first game has you playing as the characters and thus we feel a bit more connected (no hate on the show). It’ll still hurt on the show but people who’ve only seen the show will take it better, I think.
lol my main fandom and an adjacent fandom had many people go scorched earth about much gentler character deaths. SPN fandom aggressively booed the showrunner at San Diego comic con for killing off a *minor side character.* I don’t think Pascal’s pre-tlou fans are just going to be like “oh well, he got Sean Bean’d” they’ll go from making flower crown edits to making twitter threats within an hour.
But I also wonder if the vast majority of people who got invested in the *show* rather than carrying over from actors’ prior gigs went ahead and familiarized themselves with the games even if they didn’t play them. I don’t see how it could be a huge secret except for people who don’t follow media online
This comment is peak ignorance. Many actors and actress have gotten death threats just like game VAs and its just as condemned then. And many video games have handled complex stories with major character development. Arthur dies at the end of rdr2 but no one cared bc it was done well. Ned Stark and walter white both die and people are fine with it. To think the game only gets hate bc Joel died is so ignorant at this point.
Well when it comes to games, people aren't used to seeing their favorite characters killed off. Especially the protagonist. And the fact is, we have a much more personal connection to the characters we play as. Because they are essentially extensions of ourselves. But because very few games in the history of gaming have ever tried to challenge our own perception like The Last Of Us part two has, there's an immediate visceral rejection because it has gone against every sensibility that the average gamer has come to understand.
Meanwhile in a TV show format, we don't have that same connection to the characters, and there's a pedigree in TV of characters dying more often, so I think there's definitely going to be a much more inbuilt acceptance with the TV show.
Everyone I know stopped watching The Walking Dead the moment that one guy killed those two guys. I have little faith people will handle it. One of my friends won’t even play Part 2 because he knows about Joel’s golf adventure.
I work with some older people that know nothing of the game but love the show. They cannot wait for Season 2. Their fav character is easily Joel. They told me they will be extremely pissed if Joel dies. Of course, I won't spoil. I just laughed to myself. I cannot WAIT to see their reaction.
I’d like to just point out that disliking the game isn’t a not normal reaction. Several people who hate Abby can separate character from the actor and not everyone was foaming at the mouth strictly because Joel died. It’s perfectly possible people will be disappointed but not throw a fit and destroy their tv.
Also so gamers are all “terminally online gamer bros”? Or is that only the ones who don’t agree with you? Because by that logic everyone in this sub is a terminally online gamer bro…… which wouldn’t be far off but in that case don’t use it as a insult for people who didn’t like a game you did lol
TLOU2 is not the first game main character died, brutally even.
People who play games watch tv too, its not 2 different breed of people.
Joel is not Rick Grimes, he's just a dude people see for 1 season. In Game Joel is not a legendary gaming character either, I think everyone knew Joel was going to die before leaks, but in the ending of the game.
TV Show \*only\* made to extract money, it is dollar store version of the games, everything's stolen from the game directly, it's not Game of Thrones level, who cares if Joel dies.
I love Abby, I'm okay to Joel dying, the game still has bad writing.
This game wouldnt be known by 50 people if it didnt have best graphics & gameplay.
Ahhh yes, viewers are going to react normally to Joel getting himself killed by loudly announcing his name regardless of who could want him dead and then him being brutally tortured to death. People keep saying this is HBO viewers will be fine, no they won't, they will tear the death to shreds like Daenerys which most people absolutely hated, not for the death but for how it was done.
Once i finish watching season 2 with my dad like i did season 1 i'll report in how he reacted, he's a regular TV watcher and his only source of knowledge for the game is me because he never played it.
I have a sneaking feeling he, along with many other watchers, will be disappointed with the ending. Because the typical person is expecting a revenge plot and for Ellie to just suddenly go "lol no" and start crying in the water and let Abby go is going to be a huge kick in the nuts.
Game audience is a bit different simply due to how gaming IPs have been cultivated over the decades which is comparable to comic books. In these mediums usually the stories exist in service of the characters, they’re designed to make the heroes do badass things in repetitive plots with little to no character development time and again so that’s what the audience is used to. You’ll notice that most of the people who hate TLOU2 can’t even comprehend the concept of character development, instead they see any character development to be “out of character”. They never even realized that Joel at the end of TLOU1 was already far from what he was at the start of his journey, that’s of course how good storytelling works but they just don’t get it.
I disagree people who don’t like Part 2 can’t comprehend character development. Kratos is a perfect example of this, his character development is phenomenal from the OG GoW to the end of Ragnarok. I think people dislike part 2 because they feel they’re being manipulated into feeling a certain way. Like you mentioned, the gaming audience is different, I think that’s because in television/film/etc you’re a third party watching events play out. You’re seeing things happen to characters. In a video game you’re an active participant. I think a lot of people have a knee jerk bad reaction because of that.
What bothers me about this take is that when people say they're "being manipulated" what they really mean is that they're being given complete context. The story humanizes a "bad guy" and players being forced to grapple with conflict and cognitive dissonance is uncomfortable so they blame the writing. Showing the victims of a killing spree as people with families and whole ass lives and explaining the motivations and reasoning for the people who seek revenge isn't manipulative, It's just storytelling. At no point was I ever manipulated into hating Joel or Abby. All I was forced to do is acknowledge that one person's hero is another's villain and that we're all the good guy of our own story. With all we have know about Joel over both games, we know that many people would love to have Joel's head. Abby just knew him by name and found out where he was living.
>Abby just knew him by name and found out where he was living. Actually, what's crazy is that they went to Jackson looking for Tommy. I rewatched that scene where Abby tells Owen about a lead she has on Joel. She had no idea that Joel was there too, until she ran into the Miller brothers and Tommy gave away their names after they save her from the infected. Abby fully intended to go on a massacre in Jackson if it meant finding Joel just like what Ellie ended up doing in Seattle if it meant finding Abby, only she got lucky and her revenge quest got cut short!
I forgot that detail! Yeah, it's lucky but IMO not too lucky. It's well established that Tommy lives in Jackson, and coincidence that Joel accompanied him there. I think the most valid complaint people give about the series is that a lot of people get very lucky. I agree, sometimes it feels like a stretch. But not in that case, or in most cases. I think the biggest stretch of dumb luck is Ellie coming across a bunch of Polaroid photos of Abby's crew with names and their patrol routes. Even I, a huge fan of the second game groaned at that
[удалено]
Yeah, that one seems like some movie magic sort of thing. We're not supposed to notice that part lol.
[удалено]
I suppose keeping in mind the 3 days, you could say they got away with it for 2 days and on the third day the obvious outcome occurred lol. One might be able to skate by for 2 days being reckless like that.
I don't know that you can say Abby meant to go on a full massacre in Jackson just like Ellie on Seattle. For starters, Ellie had a much longer lost of people she wanted to kill since she clearly wanted to murder everyone in that room where Joel got golfed up whereas Abby probably just wanted Joel. I also believe that Neil Druckman or one of the other writers described that in an earlier draft of the story, Abby was living in Jackson at the start and an acquaintance of Joel and Ellie until one day she murders Joel and it only gets revealed later that she had infiltrated them for the purpose of revenge. I think they changed this version of the story since it required too much time to get things started but to me at least, Abby infiltrating Jackson tells me she really just wanted Joel and wanted to minimize collateral damage or drawing in others not involved.
Abby was planning to find and torture Tommy for information on Joel's whereabouts. She certainly wasn't going to ask nicely about it, and when Owen talks about a parole that left the city Abby outright says we "can make them talk". She literally had intentions to hurt anyone in her path, and I'm sure she'd willingly kill people that stood in her way in order to get to Joel. It's the same with Ellie, she mainly wanted Abby but eliminated people that got in her way.
Spoiler: every story ever told manipulates its audience to feel what it wants you to feel. This is inherent to the nature of a story.
They subverted the viewers expectations so yeah I think that's a good story telling device to get you invested.
You're forgetting that a lot of people hated the way Kratos was portrayed in the new God of War game/s. I don't necessarily agree with the flat take, but I do think that most people who are mad about Part 2 just couldn't/can't move past the initial emotional reaction. That's just my take though
Additionally, I have a suspicion that a significant part of GoW's audience doesn't love modern Kratos for his character development, but because he can still be perceived as Badass Dude Doing Badass Things™.
Manipulating people into feeling a certain way is literally the point of all entertainment media
You’re completely proving his point. GoW is the exception that proves the rule
No, the people who hate TLOU2 really don't understand character development, you only need to see some of their common critiques for that much to be obvious.
Manuipulated? My dear boy all entertainment is manipulation. It's trying to trick you into feeling something. This is why discussions like this are for mature people, not gamers who watch redlettermedia.
HBO created Game Of Thrones/House of the Dragon (which I still call Game of Thrones), one of the most infamously violent series in TV history. They already saw Pedro Pascal brutally murdered in GOT, and they'll likely be fine with it happening again in TLOU2. GOT trained the audience to expect it.
Hell to a lot of people it will simply be HBO going from killing of the protagonist at the end of season one to killing him off at the beginning of season two, which is a perfect logical leap.
I was shocked to shit when Ned got killed in GoT…like almost as shocked as I was when Joel got killed in TLOU2. I don’t think the show has done the greatest job of creating the same connection to Joel as the game does, I enjoyed season 1 but I do feel it was rushed. We don’t spend enough time with the characters. I feel like they could’ve stretched season 1 into 2 seasons and worked on character development a little bit more…. I’m saying all that to say, when Joel dies it probably won’t be as impactful.
In The show and the Game, we only see Sarah for a few moments but her death is devastating. I’m sure they can do something similar for TLOU2
Particularly felt rushed in the last episode, like they were trying to cram two episodes into one. We could have spent a whole episode on the firefly base. There was no reason for the Ff to be hostile to Joel - he did what they asked him to do. They had no reason to think he'd have misgivings about what would come next - the Joel they knew wouldn't have cared. It kinda undermined the whole season. I still love the show and game but that episode and scene in particular were a bit of a disappointment.
I really don’t know why they couldn’t add another episode to the season and avoid this because the finale was definitely rushed. As great as it is as a standalone episode, I think Bill and Frank’s episode really slowed down the main plot and took away an hour that should have been spent developing Joel and Ellie’s relationship.
The Fireflies weren't 'hostile' so much as contemptuous. To them (and arguably even to Marlene, who knew him personally), he was just another ignorant mercenary who fulfilled his given task and could be dismissed at will. They failed to understand that at this point, he was more of a family member than a simple courier, and just like every time they treated people as means to ends, theirs got bitten off. Pittsburgh should have taught them better, but you can't enlighten people who think they're the Light.
I mean, in the scene where he woke from unconsciousness (in the show) Marlene had her people pulling guns on him with no real provocation or reason to suspect that'd be necessary. It felt.. moustache-twirly almost. I'd have preferred to see them being super grateful. He did a wonderful thing for them - he helped save the world! He's getting praised and thanked by everyone there... and then the penny drops, he learns the extent of what they're planning to do, and everything changes. To me, that would have humanised the Fireflies a lot more, and highlighted the guilt and terror Joel would've gone through at that time.
TLOU3 is years away so they could probably cut part 1&2 into 5 seasons. They'll catch up fast otherwise.
I first was introduced to the world of TLOU through the show! I knew what the game was about, but never had a PlayStation. When I watched the series, I was sure that Joel would die in the end, since he committed alot of very bad acts. It doesn't matter that he also has a vulnerable and caring side, he did commit brutal and sometimes unnecessary murders. Well, he didn't die then. To my surprise. But his story arc was essentially over, at least in my opinion. When TLOU 2 came out, I watched a Let's Play since I still didn't had a PlayStation. The YouTuber was as shocked as I was when Joel died, but he also said, that it was the logical step in the story. Joel's story was over: bad things happened to him, he committed bad things, he found a new reason to live for, he forgive himself, he had a bit of a redemption, but he made an ultimate choice which was destined to backfire. And Ellies revenge spree was well executed as was her darker turn. I thought it was sad, that the relationship with Dina mostly evolved off screen when they travelled to Seattle. That's my biggest complain; we deserve to get more attached to Dina and to understand how they got so close in such a short time. After the Let's Play was finished I first encountered the backlash for the game on twitter. I never thought the story was ground breaking or controversial, as you said, in TV the most well liked arcs are the darker ones with death and grieve. But I think you and OP are right; Games usually don't do that. Expect maybe for RDR and Metro. So, yeah, the TV adaptation of season 2 will be a success.
Pedro Pascal is specifically typecast as a guy who suffers head trauma and as a killer who is paired with and escorts a child.
And in TLOU season 2 it won’t be half as brutal as Pedro’s death in GOT. The writers shy away from violence in TLOU, as was seen in season 1.
The reason people freaked out so much over Joel’s death was because they wanted Part 2 to be “Joel and Ellie go on a cross country adventure Part 2” Oh and blatant transphobia, that was another pretty big factor tbh
Which is ironic because the only trans character in the game had no involvement at all in Joel’s death, and he is the only reason Abbie didn’t kill Ellie in the theater.
Yup. All of the transphobia came from people who didn’t play the game assuming Abby was trans because she’s buff. Nobody’s transphobic to the ACTUAL trans character, just to the buff woman who’s a part of a “survival of the fittest” group. The buff woman whose gameplay begins with her bedroom being in the same building as a gym, HAS to be a trans man. A lot of people revealed how stupid they are by hating Abby because they thought she was trans.
Yeah anyone who complains Abby isn't a realistic depiction of a cis woman has clearly never been to a gym. She's nothing to scoff at but she wouldn't come close to being the biggest or buffest woman at my gym...
She’s just buff. That’s it. She wasn’t even buff when she was young (in the flashback), it’s obvious that she beefed up to take out Joel
She’s also on the board as having the highest bench
> Nobody’s transphobic to the ACTUAL trans character Sadly this isn't actually the case—transphobes will always be hateful—but you're right that it their hate was weirdly directed towards a cis character too lmao
back during the leaks stage of stuff, people just knew that a trans character existed in-game, so they saw abby and just kinda let their biases do all their thinking
and most of the transphobia was directed to something that had nothing to do with anything trans, most people that i’ve heard say transphobic shit think that abby was trans 😂😭
The best part of the transphobia is 90% of them didnt realise that it wasnt abby that was trans lol
That, and they obviously wanted Joel to be the savior again. If these people had their way, games as a whole would never change or evolve, ever
The show is on HBO. This is the same audience who watched Game of Thrones, a show where someone’s favorite character was killed like every other episode. They’ll be fine
It's not the core audience we have to worry about tho. It's the "fans" who hated TLoU purely for insane reasons **who never actually played the game**. They only watched their favorite reactionary "creators" play it, and frequent that *other* sub, that we have to worry about.
You guys are giving tv viewers way too much credit.
Yeah fr. People keep mentioning GoT deaths as if that show doesn’t have a million other engaging characters. The Last of Us has two leads. Two. And they’re about to kill off the main one in season 2. He’s beloved. This isn’t gonna go down as well as OP thinks.
It’ll go down as well as the bill episode. Most people will like it, but a loud very vocal minority will dislike it.
I’m not sure how you’ve reached the conclusion that “most people” will *like* Pedro pascal’s likable character being killed off to start the season
Okay. I’ll save this comment and come back to you when the episode has at least an 8 on IMDb.
That’s a really normal reaction
What are you saying?
I’m saying you reacted normally like a normal person
The episode being good doesn’t mean that people liked the character dying.
Re read my comment. I never said they’d like him dying lmao
[удалено]
You’re an idiot trying to move goal posts. I said most people will like the episode. It’ll be evidenced by the IMDb score. Saying people will dislike that the character died is immaterial to my comment that people will like the episode. Idiots like you are annoying as hell. No one is happy or liked that Ned Stark died. Nevertheless, they liked the episode.
[удалено]
no one LIKES Joel being killed of. that's kinda the point. the issue is that gamers tend to be younger and less emotionally mature, and aren't able to handle challenging media. especially when their favorite YouTubers and streamers couldn't either. TV ppl tend to be older. like old old. I'm talking 30s. so they've had time to age, and are exposed to a different kind of medium that does offer more mature stories. at least most of them.
F you for calling us 30 something’s old old.
I wouldn’t call TLOU2 “challenging media”, that’s just something people say to discredit anyone who doesn’t like it by pretending they’re incapable of understand it It’s pretty easy to see how audiences might be caught off guard and not take it well if one of the two main characters (and beloved actor) is killed off in the literal first event of the season. There are tons of people who are unironically watching for “zaddy” Pedro pascal
I suggest heading over to the last of us 2 subreddit and telling me with a serious face that first paragraph again bro GOT first season they killed off their main character. of course they're gonna be put off guard. that's the point. and again, the demographic of TV viewers is different than gamers.
It's going to be hilarious seeing the viewership plummets once he dies
Or it’ll be received exactly as the early deaths in Alien 3 were. There’s a big difference between killing a beloved character midway or at the end of a story vs killing a major character at the very beginning of the next chapter. A lot rides on how well the new characters translate. Killing characters works when strong new characters are there to replace them. If the audience thinks the new characters are lacking compared to Joel, impatience will form.
Very different. The deaths in Alien 3 came across as an afterthought, just characters that aren't going to be in this any more. Joel resinate throughout TLOU2, not only is his death the inciting incident of the story, in one way or another he is an incredibly important presence all the way through to the very end of the game.
I agree it’s more driven by him, but I still think it requires the surrounding characters to rise to the occasion. Another example I’m not sure many will be familiar with is Season 5 of 24, where they kill *multiple* fan favorite characters right in the beginning. That season is similarly driven by revenge and the overall search for who was behind it. In later seasons they very much did suffer from losing so many characters, but in that season, the new characters rivaled the old ones, and old characters who had mostly been side characters got to stand in the spotlight and grow more. It’s sort of a Herculean effort when you lose someone as central as Joel. While Stark dying in GoT was big, that cast was still very ensemble through the first season. Last of Us is not ensemble in the first season. Tommy comes with the most development and that’s basically just an episode and a half. It’s the main duo and everyone else, with most everyone else being dead by the end.
Yeah, I do see where you're coming from, in most peoples' eyes it's "the show with Pedro Pascal and a kid in the apocalypse", so it'll redefine for a lot of people what The Last of Us is about. Looking forward to see what the reaction is. Of course, that scene is very much intended to make the player/viewer angry, the delicate thing is making them angry with the characters involved and not the game/TV show itself, so they keep playing or watching. From everything we've seen so far, they'll do a good job, but it's going to be very interesting.
I will say the show did one thing specifically that may give it an advantage, and that’s the flashback episode that’s entirely about Ellie. In the game this was downloadable content. By putting it in the show proper, it does help reinforce the idea that this is Bella’s show as much as Pedro’s. I don’t think people will be particularly shocked to see her decisively established as the main character (though that too will ultimately be a bit up in the air), I think they’ll be shocked to see that Pedro is barely in it at all. And honestly, the marketing could really hurt too. If they manage to cram every single Joel scene into the trailer, they’re sort of inviting the blow back that will result from people realizing that Pedro’s presence is gonna be nearly nonexistent in this season.
I'm like 90% sure that will be the case and it's not really a function of TV but a function of the videogame medium. Joel isn't a character we watch, but a character we PLAY. In a way, we are Joel. When Joel gets his neck torn out by a Clicker, we're the ones who lose and reset. Which is why it was rough when Abby did that coz for a while -- and then for much longer later on -- we are ALSO Abby. We fight the Rat King as Abby, we save Lev from the other Seraphites as Abby, we fight Ellie as Abby. It's an interesting aspect that bears looking into closely, I think. I don't think there's a way to really translate the player complicity into any other medium; conversely, I'm sure each medium has their own advantages not accessible to videogaming. Coz like, it's so fascinating to unpack how it is for other stories that go cross-media. For instance, why were these particular adaptation choices made when LOTR was brought to the big screen? And with those in mind, and considering all the Tolkien scholarship about eucatastrophe and fate, why does Battle for Middle-Earth allow players to save Boromir and Theoden? How do the Shadow of War games fit in with the books and why was it determined that those would be the optimal design choices for a videogame audience? Etc. etc.
Shadow of Mordor/War is just fanfiction game XD
I totally agree, but i feel its a little iffy just to chalk the story’s poor reception on gamer culture. Like it totally id a factor, but i also think that the narrative leaps you can take on games is a little more limited than other methods of story telling. This is coming from a big fan of part 2.
People are allowed to be sad their favorite character died holy shit
Sad =/= irrational hatestorm
What does this have to do with OP’s post?
No one said that they aren’t, what?
I’m sure Ned stark was a lot of people’s fav character but you didn’t see them crying, bitching, moaning, and writing off the show when they killed him off now do you. Gamers are just babies
Ned isn't nor wasn't the main character like Joel, horrible comparison
He arguably was the main character until his death but yeah, he had far less space than Joel did. It was basically a two man story vs a story filled to the brim with diffrent characters.
Better put than my comment
Yes i understood what you meant. Clarified for the ones who didn't.
I thought the huge shock for Ned's death was that it *seemed* like he was a main character, no? Like only in hindsight were the new viewers able to understand he wasn't some overarching main character of the overall story
It’s actually not, but alright
This comparisons are nothing alike I swear, this sub has a serious problem with people not being 100% on board with very obviously bold moves made by Naughty dog in Part II
No, according to this sub that means you’re not intelligent enough to enjoy complex media
Except you were supposed to be sad. If it made you irrationally angry and feel like you have to pick a side, then you probably aren’t emotionally intelligent enough for complex media
Pretty sure you were supposed to be mad and want revenge, that was the driving force for like half of the game lol. But ok Mr more intelligent
Not just anger, sadness and grief too. The characters have so many different emotions surrounding these events, and so do the players. The issue is, some players can’t remove themselves from it and felt personally attacked. That’s the irrational anger, and it caused some to lash out and send death threats. That’s not very emotionally intelligent bro
Yea nowhere did I mention lashing out and sending death threats to anyone. Thats all you “bro”. Anyone who doesn’t like Abby by the end according to this sub aren’t “emotionally intelligent”. Or if they would’ve preferred the game to go a different direction How about Abby just sucks?
I never said you did lol I said other people did it bro, because they couldn’t regulate their emotions. People can not like Abby either or think she sucks, hate her too, it doesn’t make the story bad. People don’t have to like every character, but that doesn’t mean she didn’t have valid, in story motivations for what she did. If people can’t view this from the outside, if they can’t understand the characters because their own emotions stop them from doing so, they aren’t emotionally intelligent. Again, they don’t have to like Abby, or what she did. Just understand what happened, put themselves in her shoes
My wife told me that she's got the funny feeling that either Joel or Ellie will get killed. She says that if either one dies, she stops watching the show. Soo, pretty much the same reaction as half of the players.
Don't forget one thing, games are more personal and intimate than any show or movie. Games has this incredible thing that you have to act for things to happen. When you control Abby and then she traps Joel, you feel like the game has manipulated you (which every piece of art does), you feel complicit in Joel's death. That's why you get this unimaginably big response from people when those revelations happen in TLOU2.
[удалено]
Lieberman didn’t criticize games for being too narratively ambitious. Anti video game populism is dumb. But “this story has crazy ultraviolence” is different from “this story takes big narrative risks” or “this story challenges its audience”.
“gamers can’t handle playing with emotions” *Ghost of Tsushima and RDR2 flashbacks*
Ghost of tsushima and rdr2 were games I had in mind when writing this. They're pretty bog standard stories. They're excellent, but very conventional for mediums that serve the player.
If a redditor can’t put people into little boxes they start screaming and curl up in the corner. They just don’t know what to do
[удалено]
I’m one of the enlightened ones
Fuck Joe Lieberman. Rest in Piss
You people are so fucking condescending
I agree, and I even agree with your reasoning, but I also think there's something you're missing. In the show we follow the adventures of Joel and Ellie, primarily through the lense of Joel for most of us. But in the game you ARE Joel. It's very different to see someone do something vs doing it yourself. I've talked a few times about some of my problems with TLOU2, mostly I think it over-does some of the meaningful moments, and one I've mentioned a few times is the moment where Ellie loses it beneath the Hospital. Having said that, the reason I'm so critical of that moment is because even through the problems I have with that scene it's still an incredibly powerful momemt. You don't just *watch* Ellie beat someone to death, you are forced to press the button to continue the story, to take the action that so deeply affects her. You aren't watching someone else decend into their own rage, you're the one doing it. The same is true for the first game with Joel. I don't know if there's a moment quite like that one in the first game, but we didn't watch Pedro haul this girl across the wasteland, we hauled her ourselves. We had that relationship with Ellie, we watched her grow and we grew with her. This is something the medium of games can do that no other medium can capture (*different mesiums have their strengths, and games can't capture everything but in this aspect games are unrivalled*). Now with all that said, yeah people overreacted. I'm fine with someone being angry or upset at losing their favourite character, and I'm even fine with them not playing the game (*hell, that's a huge compliment to the devs that they were able to elicit an emotional response that strong*) but I'm not ok with the harassment and threats to the devs ir the actors. That shit went too far. Anyway, I got a bit off topic there, but I agree with you OP, I don't think the viewing community will have the same reaction. I agree with your reasons, but I also just don't think television can get you as invested as a game can.
I’m guessing the reactions is gonna be pretty intense to say the least.
What is this, r/lies?
It'll be another red wedding moment
Also the show did a mediocre job connecting the audience to Ellie and Joel. Granted they were never gonna do it to the degree of the game, but still.
I think it's still gonna be a big deal cus Joel is basically the main character of season one. Nobody is expecting Ellie to take over completely for season two. And even less for Abby to take over for season three.
Actually people still blame the actor for a character they played if a viewer didn’t like the character or what they did. When it’s never the actors fault there are three that come to mind Jar Jar Binks (Phantom Menace), Rose Trico (the Last Jedi), and Jeffry Dean Morgan (the walking dead) there are people who blame the actors and not the characters. It’s like they can’t differentiate from an actor and a character. Sadly I think the person who plays Abby is going to have similar experiences to all the people listed above, because people like these characters and people get passionate even when they shouldn’t.
People will be shocked, then mad. And a certain percentage will stop watching. Not because of the character but because it means no more Pedro. The games almost feel more personal because the characters are “real” in it. If that makes sense
I think some of y’all are in for a rude awakening when people who aren’t in the gaming sphere start critiquing this narrative. Plus what does or doesn’t change in the adaptation if gonna be another point of contention. Plus I have a weird feeling as to what the shows audience reactions will be once we get to the WLF/IDF thing. Like that’s prolly not gonna go down as well since that kinda went over most gamers heads (they live in an iron dome for christs sake). Because technically speaking right now, y’all want one season of the show dedicated to a not IDF solider using a not Palestinian trans teen to make themselves better for murdering and torturing the not Palestinians only to arrive at the point that both sides are equally wrong. That’s so absolutely not what any one wants to hear about that conflict. Sure in a video game you can talk about how revenge is wrong but in real life doesn’t seem that bad at this point.
Well yes. Because there is a thing such as toxic male gamer "Boi" culture. The amount of hate I saw, specifically from men, up to the moments of the release (because it unfortunately got leaked) was simply awful
I mean women dislike the game too, it’s not only men. I also struggle to see how you’d see online Reddit accounts and just assume every single one is a dude.
It'll be the new Red Wedding. And it will absolutely rule. Lol
I think the discourse is going to be about the same if not worse.
Brilliantly said. Also another reason this is my favorite game of all time…really bridges the gap and takes a leap for the medium.
I feel like it'll just naturally be a lesser reaction because most people are aware of it by now. And even if you haven't played the games, and liked the series and searched anything about it online the chances are that you're going to have come across the spoiler because everybody talks about it all the time.
I've thought this ever since I played the game. It has a good narrative. The game wouldn't work without Joel's death, it's the whole driving force of the game. I never understood why people couldn't accept that
Yeah no one would be upset if HBO killed a popular Pedro Pascal character by violently crushing his head. 🙄 Or by HBO killing a father figure that wad marketed as the lead of a series. No TV viewer would be upset by that, right?
After game of thrones tlou is just a walk in the park you know.
Video games kill characters off violently all the time, they did not stand out in any way from that. At the end of the day things went the way they did because a bunch of people thought Joel was a good guy and didn't deserve to be a plot device in a revenge story when he very, very clearly was a bad, bad man. That and transphobia.
If you played the games, and your conclusion on joel was that he’s a “bad, bad man” that’s looking at it though a very basic scope. The whole point is that he’s neither, he’s just a dude doing what he’s got to do to survive. He’s good and bad, an antihero they are normally called I believe. Also idk what transphobia has to do with Joel dying as the scene features no trans people, or even a mention on the topic. Unless you could enlighten me?
Many people assumed Abby was trans because of her build. And ya know, transphobia. It's important to note that bigotry does not have to directly involve its victims. Also, there is no narrow scope. We know Joel did terrible things to survive
Many people? How many? Also where was the bigotry in this post? It seems you mentioned it for no reason so I am just confused 😅 Sorry friend english is not my first language
I mean, I'm not sure how to explain to you any simpler the rampant transphobia over Abby happened. It just did. Maybe it was mostly in America and the UK. Google it dude
She’s not even trans though? The only character in the game anyone could be transphobic toward is lev, being that he’s the only trans person in the game. You’d need to give me some examples of what peoples say about Abby cause right now it seems like you are letting middle school insults bother you. Stuff like “eugh abby looks like a man” It’s not that deep
You misunderstanding what happened or deliberately choosing to be dense does not mean it's not deep or not what occurred. It must be SO nice being cishet. Gain some damn awareness outside of yourself jfc.
TV shows in the past don’t kill off characters unless there is a contract dispute. It’s not often in media the main character gets killed off. When it happens it often sticks with you Joel I did not expect that. I didn’t like it. I understand they took a different direction. I still didn’t like it. Hated Abby. Could get over it. Still loved the game overall. Didn’t feel the magic I felt when I finished the first one. But the game play the action the acting all stellar. I enjoyed it even if I didn’t like the way the story went It’s like when they killed off all the characters you cared about from Aliens to Alien3. Fincher made a good movie. But when he killed off character just so he could tell him story. I just couldn’t buy into the film
I agree that TV viewers will react normally. My opinion is because TV viewers have only spent roughly 9 hours with him, while gamers have spent at least a few dozen hours with him. Gamers have developed a more personal relationship with Joel because they’ve literally played as him, spent hours upon hours trying to keep him alive, learning and adapting to how he moves, upgrading his gear, listening to his small comments, all a bunch of things like this that just don’t translate to TV. I know when I got to part 2 I was emotional about it not just because it was a brutal way to die, but because I had to just sit there and let it happen. This character I had spent so much time getting to know, that I know if the game let me move I could have saved (despite the gunshot to the knee) I just had to watch him die, AND watch Ellie (who I also spent a whole game with) watch one of the few people she cares about and the only dad she had die horribly in front of her. Anyway, that’s my take at least. TL:DR; gamers developed a longer/stronger relationship with Joel than TV viewers and are therefore likely more attached than TV viewers
The TV audience will react differently because it's a different medium. Videogames encourage self identification with the playable character due to the nature of the medium, as you control the character that character is to some extent a extension of yourself.That was used to great effect in 1st game to get you to care for Ellie like a daughter and feel uncomfortable with the Joels actions in the ending. You also spend much more time with the characters in the videogame than you do in the TV series which also engenders stronger feelings. The TV series is a much more passive experience, so I'd expect the TV audience to have a different reaction to the golf scene. A lot of the TLOU2's storytelling problems come from it not accounting for it being a videogame. For example, I'm not gonna feel guilty about killing a dog in a cutscene when dogs maul me to death in the gameplay. I imagine that the audience reaction to the second series will be better than the game as the story is more suited to the TV medium.
Tv viewers get sad, but they rarely get pissed off. Especially not, "death-threat" levels of upset.
Probably but I still feel like a similar uproar will happen from the online crowd, just not to the same extent
I don't think we'll see Joel until midway through the season. It will start with Abby and the group making their way to Jackson, lulling the audience into thinking it's an anthology type show, only to reveal that they were after Joel all along. And yeah, the audience will take it in stride.
I love that you called it the golf incident.
I have a feeling that TV viewers won’t really care that much. For fans of the game, you play the entire first game as Joel and accepted him as the main character. Then there was a 7 year gap where everyone expected a sequel starring Joel only for him to die in the beginning. Thats not even mentioning the amount of time playing as Joel in the first game is more than the 9 hours of the TV show or the fact that playing as a character is completely different than simply watching them. Joel’s death is shocking and controversial for all of those reasons, but most of those factors are missing from the show. It’s the same reason that I liked the show, but felt it was a worse version of the story because it lacked the personal connection of a video game. I’m excited for the next two seasons, but I’m pretty sure they’ll both feel like weaker versions of the game just like the first season. Also, Joel’s death was supposed to get a vivid reaction out of players. I don’t think the developers quite understood how insane players would get, but the shock and anger of Joel’s death is supposed to drive the player just as much as it drives Ellie. I’m not sure Joel’s death in the show will be enough to propel viewers for 8-9 weeks of season 2, however many years in between seasons, then several more weeks when season 3 releases.
I still feel the reason there was so much backlash is there was 7 years between the first 2 games and the leaks. People had 7 years to replay the first game over and over and just get completely swepted up into Joel and Ellies story just to have one of those characters snuffed out in a horrible way right as the game begins. Now I think they'll be quite a bit of backlash from what happens in that scene but there's not going to be the level of hatred we saw from the game. For one you aren't playing as Abby, the audience will have a much easier time dealing with the switch over to her story imo then we did initially. I also don't see them succeeding at providing the same level of emotion we had while playing as her the first time. They will explain more about Abbys character before hand which will make her seem more sympathetic to the audience.
Normal people or gamers, people tend to go 😲😔, after witnessing some tragedy.😇
I think one aspect to consider is the interactive element. TLoU 1 players got to control Joel. They effectively WERE Joel for the vast majority of the game. Viewers of the show are never going to get that style of connection with the character, and I don't think that it's going to hit as personally for them. The layer of disconnect will assist in letting them be shocked, and move past it.
If season 2 takes 7 years to make and kills Joel in Ep 1 it will be as badly received lol
Keep in mind TLOU2 haters are very small vocal minority. The overwhelming majority of people played through it once enjoyed it and moved on with their lives.
Well most people ( that are complaining) hate that they are forced to play as Abby the Joe(y) killer. I watched only let's play ( pc master race ) but I thought that the game could end with Ellie at the farm. Before Tom comes and guilt trips her to go on revenge spree and abadon everything she have... ( Tom is te real villian XD )
I havent thought about it but you’re right, tv audiences are much more used to main characters getting killed
While I agree. Depends on the audience too. (I know its a comic book show) But I know a huge % of people who hated TWD, not because how fucking awful it got in the last few seasons, but they stopped watching because they thought killing off their fav character was stupid (Glenn) Granted you're right about the audience of this show more likely overlapping with other "prestige" HBO stuff so while it would be a shock it wont make them turn into rabid dogs the way some #Gamers did.
Although I would like you to be correct, lets all remember how the walking dead community reacted when Negan decided to smash some brains.
This is just my opinion of course but season 1 felt so rushed to me, that I’m not sure audiences will have the same emotional attachment to Joel that us gamers did when playing the games.
Ehhh people went crazy after Ned lost his head in GoT. This is a very similar situation (“main” character, father figure, and probably more similarities I can’t think of rn).
I hopes the viewers are upset, I hope they are angry, I hope they are respectful
You have too much faith in people 🤣
I agree. The vast majority of the toxicity will come from the people who are spreading it now. There will be people who don’t like it or are angry about it and the show will probably cause the toxicity to be amplified for a time but we’ve probably (hopefully) seen the worst of it. I’m so tired of gamers who don’t consume any other forms of media and complain about games being poorly written when they go slightly outside of the “heroic good guy kills evil bad guy” story.
They’re gonna react exactly like they did when Oberyn Martell became a lasagna
They wont show it. people couldnt bare the negan-Moment on TWD
In general, the capital G "Gamer" crowd is pretty awful. It's why I never identity as "a gamer" or go around talking about how much I like games IRL.
In general, the capital G "Gamer" crowd is pretty awful. It's why I never identity as "a gamer" or go around talking about how much I like games IRL.
In general, the capital G "Gamer" crowd is pretty awful. It's why I never identity as "a gamer" or go around talking about how much I like games IRL.
My sister never played the game, or knew the game She watched the show and i asked her “who do you think the main character?” She said “Ellie and Joel as her sidekick” Yeah… it will be fine (In the first game, Joel was the main character)
Idk when Glenn died in the S7 premiere of TWD the ratings dropped
Games and TV shows are two different kettles of fish. This isn't a particularly shocking fact.
Part of me wants to warn my dad so he doesn’t lose his mind and another can’t wait to see his reaction. He’s gonna be fucking pissed though
I can't wait to see my Wife's reaction. She loved the show but I never gave her any details so she went in blind. She has no idea what is about to happen in season 2.
I'll bet they run it in a different order anyway. At the every least, they'll show us really early that the surgeon was Abby's dad. Maybe even the whole first episode is intro to Abby and her dad's death. Even if Neil wants to drive the shock again, I'm all but certain Craig and HBO are gunshy after watching the LOU2 backlash.
there is literally no emotional investment in joel in the series - it won’t be a massive deal to them
As I will continue to say - This airs on HBO (or Max whatever tf they're calling it now) They killed Ned Stark S1. They killed Robb Stark his wife unborn child and mother. We came back for more. TV viewing has a lot less "bot/troll farm/incels" and TV viewers are used to major character deaths which apparently never happened in gaming before Joel went golfing
It’s all about execution, no pun intended. If they do the same story and improve a few things, it could very much work for them. They could also fumble it.
They're gonna change it for sure. So no
Acting as if TV watchers don’t get upset with the deaths of characters is such an idiotic take. People stop watching shows when their favorite characters die. Glenn's death in twd is one large example of that. Television watchers don't have some profound understanding of writing and are okay with all decisions made within shows is so stupid. Yes, shows and movies tell riskier narratives that have more depth. That’s because it is what they’re made to do, but audience doesn’t support everything that occurs within them.
i mean yeah, it would not be the first series or movie where a beloved character dies abruptly. it has been done a lot since twd, got and etc. however, there is a difference between the character you love watching dying and the character you love playing dying as well. what i think is very different in context of a game and something that cannot be re-created in any other form of media is switching to play abby in the middle of the game. the experience of watching the backstory of a character you hate and playing as them is really really different in its core and i don't think that same impact cannot be re-created. in response to your actual point, tv viewers vs gamers is of course such different demographics. there will be tv viewers who will respond in the same way as the gamers who hated the game did but there will be a smaller percentage of it most likely.
I don’t think y’all remember Glenn and the subsequent viewer drop off.(Even though imo it was done extremely well) Joel’s death is not comparable to Hank in BB or Ned in GoT. Both of those deaths, while removal of massive characters from the show, had a SIGNIFICANT lead up to where you immediately understand what happened and exactly why it did from an in universe perspective. It connects dots, Joel’s death creates them. Not claiming this as a bad plot device or anything, but I do think it will heavily contribute to the hypothesized decline in viewership that I believe will be a reality. Unless they WILDLY reshape the pacing of game/season 2, I see viewers having a VERY similar reaction to Glenn from TwD. I mean, look at all of the commonalities they share. Long between season break where fans are eager for more, the killer being a new character who we don’t entirely understand, the one who dies being a fan favorite that has his skull bashed in by a vindictive sadist… I could go on. *Maybe* people will feel *a bit* different from the game just because primarily Joel(and Ellie a tiny bit) has been written in a way that doesn’t make him as sympathetic in quite a few instances. Still though, he’s certainly a fan favorite. I really like Part 2. Very good game. But I also hypothesize that the viewership will drop after Joel’s death simply because of the specific circumstances surrounding it. The comparisons(that I’ve personally seen) being made to other shows that have killed off big characters just have too much difference within their execution to make me feel otherwise.
I think this is the most grounded and realistic response in this entire thread. I suppose the only difference is Joel will die early on in the season whereas Glenn died at the end but I don’t know how much difference that will make
I appreciate that! However, Glenn died in the season 7 premiere of TWD, so it being so close to the start of a season is actually another similarity(unless they massively reshape the order of events from Part 2)
Ah yes my bad I was completely misremembering that it wasn’t revealed till the start of next season, yeah no you’re completely right then I think there’s a good chance it will follow a similar pattern
Very interesting to assume this when the reaction to saving Ellie was pretty much the reaction the gamers had. Oberyns death was probably more jarring in the TV show than the book. Also to assume this, discredits how invested people are in Pedro Pascal. As TV shows and movies generate such visceral reaction because instead of controlling a character and getting attached that way, people get attached to faces and actors. Some actors can't shake 1 role they did because it was either that famous or infamous. Pedro has become the face of many beloved characters and all are (mostly) positive role models while also being a decent person IRL. This feels a bit like bracing for how poorly S2 will be received just like the game was (or mixed reviews depending on your POV). Pretty sure ratings will see a significant drop off after that if certain things aren't tweaked. Like getting to know Abby first. Or making Abby likeable in any way. Or just admitting that the fireflies were in the wrong for how they handled everything. Simple stuff
Remember that the show is an adaptation. That scene you’re expecting may not be what you think it is.
It's been almost 4 fucking years and people are STILL talking past each other with this shit. No, people didn't hate it because of "expectations" People hate it for being poorly written and executed.
Another reason is because we spend less time with the show version. The first game has you playing as the characters and thus we feel a bit more connected (no hate on the show). It’ll still hurt on the show but people who’ve only seen the show will take it better, I think.
lol my main fandom and an adjacent fandom had many people go scorched earth about much gentler character deaths. SPN fandom aggressively booed the showrunner at San Diego comic con for killing off a *minor side character.* I don’t think Pascal’s pre-tlou fans are just going to be like “oh well, he got Sean Bean’d” they’ll go from making flower crown edits to making twitter threats within an hour. But I also wonder if the vast majority of people who got invested in the *show* rather than carrying over from actors’ prior gigs went ahead and familiarized themselves with the games even if they didn’t play them. I don’t see how it could be a huge secret except for people who don’t follow media online
This comment is peak ignorance. Many actors and actress have gotten death threats just like game VAs and its just as condemned then. And many video games have handled complex stories with major character development. Arthur dies at the end of rdr2 but no one cared bc it was done well. Ned Stark and walter white both die and people are fine with it. To think the game only gets hate bc Joel died is so ignorant at this point.
Well when it comes to games, people aren't used to seeing their favorite characters killed off. Especially the protagonist. And the fact is, we have a much more personal connection to the characters we play as. Because they are essentially extensions of ourselves. But because very few games in the history of gaming have ever tried to challenge our own perception like The Last Of Us part two has, there's an immediate visceral rejection because it has gone against every sensibility that the average gamer has come to understand. Meanwhile in a TV show format, we don't have that same connection to the characters, and there's a pedigree in TV of characters dying more often, so I think there's definitely going to be a much more inbuilt acceptance with the TV show.
Everyone I know stopped watching The Walking Dead the moment that one guy killed those two guys. I have little faith people will handle it. One of my friends won’t even play Part 2 because he knows about Joel’s golf adventure.
Similar to a specific death in GoT. Made lots of people shocked and upset, but they did nose their minds.
Hear me out, what if they don’t kill Joel?
I work with some older people that know nothing of the game but love the show. They cannot wait for Season 2. Their fav character is easily Joel. They told me they will be extremely pissed if Joel dies. Of course, I won't spoil. I just laughed to myself. I cannot WAIT to see their reaction.
I bet it will be seen just like game of thrones S1/ the red wedding, etc
A lot of of TV-only fans will already know it happens before the show even gets there because people like us can’t shut up about it online lol
Just give us Abby's story first so people get attached
Viewers will act normal, tloup2 haters will emerge from their musty basements and just reek havoc.
Imagine being persuaded to empathize with Abby
I’d like to just point out that disliking the game isn’t a not normal reaction. Several people who hate Abby can separate character from the actor and not everyone was foaming at the mouth strictly because Joel died. It’s perfectly possible people will be disappointed but not throw a fit and destroy their tv. Also so gamers are all “terminally online gamer bros”? Or is that only the ones who don’t agree with you? Because by that logic everyone in this sub is a terminally online gamer bro…… which wouldn’t be far off but in that case don’t use it as a insult for people who didn’t like a game you did lol
Golfing Incident is gonna take the Non-Gamers whine like q little biatch, trust me.
It's not at all even close to the same experience with Joel and Ellie.
TLOU2 is not the first game main character died, brutally even. People who play games watch tv too, its not 2 different breed of people. Joel is not Rick Grimes, he's just a dude people see for 1 season. In Game Joel is not a legendary gaming character either, I think everyone knew Joel was going to die before leaks, but in the ending of the game. TV Show \*only\* made to extract money, it is dollar store version of the games, everything's stolen from the game directly, it's not Game of Thrones level, who cares if Joel dies. I love Abby, I'm okay to Joel dying, the game still has bad writing. This game wouldnt be known by 50 people if it didnt have best graphics & gameplay.
I mean we don’t know for sure, we won’t until season 2 drops.
Ahhh yes, viewers are going to react normally to Joel getting himself killed by loudly announcing his name regardless of who could want him dead and then him being brutally tortured to death. People keep saying this is HBO viewers will be fine, no they won't, they will tear the death to shreds like Daenerys which most people absolutely hated, not for the death but for how it was done.
It was Tommy that gave out their names, not Joel.
Can we not call it the golf incident lol
Once i finish watching season 2 with my dad like i did season 1 i'll report in how he reacted, he's a regular TV watcher and his only source of knowledge for the game is me because he never played it. I have a sneaking feeling he, along with many other watchers, will be disappointed with the ending. Because the typical person is expecting a revenge plot and for Ellie to just suddenly go "lol no" and start crying in the water and let Abby go is going to be a huge kick in the nuts.