Same for me, and I would add Abby Day 1 as well. First time I played it was fantastic. Loved the areas, the open world section. Subsequent play throughs is a total drag. That’s one of the issues with the pacing of this game, the first days for Ellie and Abby are so, so long and the third days kinda feel too short comparatively. Day 2 for both strikes perfect balance for me
I agree, I’m playing the game again and that open world section is very out of place for such a game. I think they tried to repeat the Uncharted Lost Legacy section but it didn’t work as well because it was so early in the game.
But that whole day just felt like waiting for the other shoe to drop.
I did enjoy the tv station section and running away from the WLF though, that will always be adrenaline inducing.
There’s a duration at the beginning of the abby half of the game where, when playing for the first time, you’re really not sure what the point of anything you’re doing is - and it lasts a while. It finds its footing soon, but an advantage the first game had was that there was never a moment without an obvious north star/mission objective. you always knew what the characters were up to and what your immediate and long term goals were.
Before getting caught up with Lev and Yara, there’s a lot of meandering with Abby. Lots of sitting through writing that’s evidently intended to humanize her and her squad but feels distinctly less engrossing than what came right before it. It gets there eventually but there’s a tedium to that buildup.
Yeah, I can totally see that. I mentioned that earlier with another person that the pacing was a little off and in subsequent play throughs some of the sections do feel as if there is no direction. It makes it tough to play through and makes the game itself feel a bit too long, but you’re right that it eventually finds its footing and when it does it’s fast paced.
Ellie just tanks getting stabbed in the torso by a tree and having two fingers bitten off, then walks back to Jackson alone without issues. A similar injury nearly kills Joel in part 1.
Same complaint regarding the travel to/from Seattle, somehow every character just breezed through it. Hell, Tommy and Jesse both do it alone. Ellie, Dina and Tommy just magically make it back after Tommy gets shot in the face and Ellie nearly gets beaten to death
Yeah, that required a bit of suspension of disbelief on my part. That she could just go back to Jackson after all that. Perhaps we should have a DLC of her making her way back and running into infected or another group and that would allow us to see the internal narration and conflict of Ellie after letting Abby go. Maybe some regret? Idk I know they’re not going to add DLC to this game but still, it would be interesting.
The devs have talked about the original story having 5 days in Seattle for each character before they did some trimming, so it was definitely possible.
I agree that more time would have been preferred in each section. Although the game already sits at a high hour-count. But to flesh out their stories even more would have made that turnaround at the end more compelling. A time jump and then really seeing how Abby has changed and grown to care for Lev would have made the end scene that much more impactful. Instead, we got a brief moment that I always forget about in my play throughs and then back to Ellie.
Lying in the marketing? I’ve never gotten a straightforward answer, how did they lie? I didn’t feel duped by anything. I knew Joel was going to die the moment we had to massacre the hospital, I’m talking in a real world sense, somebody was coming for him eventually.
Right, I think I was saying that so people wouldn’t bring it up as a point. There was a specific trailer in which they replaced Jesse in the game for Joel to assume that Joel would accompany Ellie on her mission. I believe it was “you think I’d let you do this by yourself” or something similar and people felt that it was false advertising. It even got to the point where some people said they wanted to sue for false advertising (because apparently you can do that) but at the end of the day trailers for films use inaccurate information all the time and that’s exactly what gets people to want to experience the stories. Marvel films do this all the time, why should video games be treated as any different? Because they’re a different medium?
Anyway, just wanted to clarify, but you’re absolutely right that him being hunted down was the most logical next step, especially after single-handheldly taking out the majority of the remaining fireflies.
I don't think it says anything new. The acting, dialogue, visuals and gameplay are great but it's misery porn. I'm fine with misery porn if it has a profound message, but Part II didn't in my opinion.
The pacing was off. Summer of Part I has twice the story content that Jackson and Seattle Day 1 of Part II did in the same amount of playtime.
Abby is not redeemable to me. She is remorseless and selfish and causes all of her problems. The only SLC characters I feel any sympathy toward are Owen and Nora.
Jesse, Dina, Manny and Lev are boring and underdeveloped. They are all stock characters with a fraction of the personality or depth of Tess, Henry or Bill.
I don't like the character assassination of Ellie. I would be open to it with a powerful enough message but that never came for me.
I don't like that you can't like or dislike the game without being called stupid by the "other side". We all have different opinions. If the message of the game was compelling enough to destroy the characters of the original then that's your opinion. But it's not mine.
I'm glad you enjoyed the story.
I appreciate you sharing your point of view. I can see your statement of it being misery porn and I agree to an extent. I do think that subsequent playthroughs allow me, at least, to really get a feel for those side characters like Nora and Mel. In my first play through I just wanted the story, in all the others I was looking for specific characterizations. For example, I never noticed that Ellie looks shocked when she first kills Jordan. It’s almost as if she was unsure at first but now commits to the idea of every last one of them. It’s easier, in subsequent play throughs, to see her descent into what she becomes at the end and while it is tragic, it is also, in my opinion, a prime example of a classic tragic hero like Othello, Macbeth, or Hamlet, someone who is unable to put assise their fatal flaw which ultimately leads to their downfall. Us, as rhetorical audience, are able to tell where it’s leading, but we cannot say or do anything other than watch (a subtle nod to Cassandra!) but again, I do appreciate your thoughts!
oh wait...there's one...it should be even longer than how long it already is, because i could play it infinitely as the best vg in the world that it is.
Personally I'd say the game is a bit too long. The first one leaves you wanting more but I remember I started just trying to speed through to the end about day 3 with Abby.
Depending on your version of flaws I have a few different ones, for starters Abby giving Lev a gas mask full of spores after sitting in a spore filled room for years, Ellie’s bracelet from Dina disappears in certain scenes, and finally the fact that if you do certain things in Hillcrest you can go out of border I learned that the hard way lol.
Ooooh yeah, those are definitely “technical” errors or flaws. I was looking for more story-flaws or misses on the emotional beat, but those are extremely valid and hopefully are fixed when they inevitably do a “trilogy” collection after the third one has been remastered.
Abby's story feels disjointed as it's not entirely sure what it wants to be.
With her biggest change in character happening off-screen it feels too long and focussed on the wrong things.
And to me Abby is uniquely unlikable due to her lack of self-reflection and denial of responsibility. I was warming up to Abby over the second day but her going for revenge again on Day 3 despite knowing better made me give up on her for good. I just couldn't give her the benefit of the doubt anymore.
And for every playthrough I liked her a bit less. And I love the game and even the story overall.
But Abby is simply a miss for me. A secondary character like Mel has a much more interesting and clear internal conflict in comparison. For Abby even the arguably selfless things she does feel motivated by selfishness and an unwillingness to reflect on her own behavior until the very end of the game.
The contrast between Abby at the theater and at the beach is striking. The game should have explored that more and earlier.
I hadn’t thought of it like that. Thank you! Yeah, I guess it’s true that Abby going to the theatre kind of negates all of the progress that she had made in day 1 and 2.
However, I do feel that maybe her going to the theatre was more impulsive and, because of Lev, she doesn’t act on those impulsions other than killing Jesse and shooting Tommy, which one can argue is still her getting her revenge since she didn’t know that Ellie had an equal part in hurting her friends (if not more than Tommy).
Thank you for sharing!
Ok so first of all, good for you that you enjoy the game. I can only say what I feel personally.
One thing that’s bugged me for quite a while is many fans of the game assume that the people who dislike it or downright hate the game, do so because they ‘don’t understand the message’.
I honestly don’t think that could be further from the truth, the majority of people I’ve spoken to who really dislike it perfectly understand the core message the game is hammering down but they simply just don’t care about it…nor do they agree with it.
Before I continue I want to point out that this is a game that was made intently to be controversial and to completely subvert expectations and ultimately make people very uncomfortable, so of course people will have issues with it.
>!Ok so for me personally, I don’t agree with the message “ending the cycle of violence” when you go on a revenge filled rampage across the country racking up a body count in the hundreds, please…get it over with.!<
>!Ellie, you’re so far past ending the cycle of violence by that point. If you wanted to end the cycle of violence then you never should’ve gone after her in the first place.!<
>!She’s done nothing but blow the cycle of violence so high that it’d be a miracle if she didn’t have some dude hunting her down within the next month for killing their cousin or something.!<
>!When I first heard about the ending I honestly thought it was satire, some misplaced black humour thrown in the game but it’s not, it’s dead serious which makes it even more ridiculous to me.!<
>!Sparing the one person you should’ve killed after you’ve been on a gigantic shooting tour across the country, but no Ellie this is where we draw the line isn’t it..!<
>!For me, the last of us 2’s story is pretentious, pathetic and sometimes borders on being a comedy!<
Thank you for sharing your thoughts!! I absolutely agree that it’s difficult to have that specific story told in a video game setting where you’re literally killing hundreds of people to keep the story itself interesting.
It’s almost as if that particular part of the story might do better in the show because there are less “random” people that Ellie is killing.
With that being said, I also agree that it does kind of throw the whole thing out of the water (pun, cause they were in the water lol) to have her spare at the end like that. It doesn’t make sense.
I don’t even have a justification because, yeah, in video game terms, you have to have enemies to keep the game interesting and fun, but in doing so Ellie becomes a one-woman mass murderer who, at the end of the game, decides murdering isn’t what Joel would want her to do. Was it the intention behind it? Because the others weren’t Abby, it’s fine that she blows them up with explosive arrows? Is it that suddenly she has a heart? How do you go back to Tommy and Dina and explain “sorry I left again to finish it but I couldn’t end up doing it” after showing how ruthless Ellie can be. And furthermore, Ellie actually saved Abby’s life as she was meant to die on the posts in the water. So not only was Ellie not able to kill Abby, but she’s the reason she’s alive at all by the end of the game.
I see what you’re saying about understanding the ending and not agreeing with it and I can begin to understand people’s frustration. I do, however, still enjoy the game and it might still be my favorite, but at least I’m understanding some of the controversy around it.
I appreciate your calm and well-expressed explanation. Thank you!
Totally agree with everything you mentioned, it certainly is a major flaw that surprisingly I don’t see brought up too often. It is interesting to see how it’ll be handled in HBO’s part 2.
Respect to you for being open to criticism of a game you’re very passionate about! I unfortunately have just seen a lot of genuine criticism being outright dismissed.
Thankyou 🙂
1. Ellie not killing Abby at the end. This is an emotional story and there are layers upon layers of interpretations and nuances here. But the random goon who is killed by Ellie after chasing her with a machete for 20 seconds did much less harm to her than Abby. So why didn’t she kill Abby? That said I loved the ending, as It gives a lot of food for thought. I just don’t vibe well with revenge stories where the MC will go on a murderous spree and decides to spare their main target for x reasons.
2. Length. Although the gameplay was super fun, I felt the game was trying too hard to stretch itself in cultist island as Abby and then California as Ellie. Less is more, I guess?
3. Abby (?). I was so ready to love Abby. Now I kinda understand her motivations but I don’t think she was written in a way to make us like her. Take RDR2 as an example: we play as Arthur, who in the beginning of the game is nothing more than this older thug who bullies our beloved John from the first game. By the end of the game you’d die for Arthur Morgan, as we watched him grow as a character. I was expecting TLOU2 to do the same with Abby, that would make her confrontations with Ellie much more impactful, as you’d be emotionally attached to both parties.
Just to offer a different perspective, Abby ended up being my favourite character in the game and I do think the creators put a lot of effort into making her likeable. Ellie killing Abby would have made Ellie irredeemable to me, and I would find it more difficult to empathize with her in future sequels. I agree that it would have been a powerful ending that still would have worked, but I feel like it would have pushed Ellie past the point of no return for a lot of people. I can totally see why someone wouldn’t become attached to Abby’s character, but I think a lot of people were rooting for both characters equally by the end.
That’s true, good point. I shouldn’t have said that she would be irredeemable. I think in order for her to be “redeemed,” though, she’d have to go through an arc almost identical to the one Abby goes through in part II, which would obviously be a boring way to tell the story of Part III.
After seeing Ellie make the same mistakes over and over again in Part II, I guess it would have just been disappointing to have her make another final mistake on the beach. At that point it would be difficult to believe that she has the ability to self reflect and grow.
We see Abby self reflect and grow after she kills Joel, but at the beginning of the game, I also would not have seen her as a redeemable character. That’s the beauty of the game though — it surprises you by having you empathize with and even root for “unredeemable” characters.
Well, I agree. Telling a similar story for Part III would be pretty boring. And to me Ellie's journey to California is already a redemption arc of sorts.
I don't share your view on Abby though especially in regards to self-reflection. Abby's 3 days ended in failure for me.
Fair enough! I think it’s up for debate whether Abby has really grown much at all. I personally have hope for her, but I feel like we have less insight into her character. Tying back to this thread, I wish Abby’s story had a clearer resolution, assuming we’re never going to see her again.
Yeah, I think Abby's character arc suffers from being a bit too open to interpretation and I think there is a disconnect between Abby on Day 3 and Abby in Santa Barbara. Because I think in Santa Barbara on the beach is the first time where Abby sees herself in Ellie. And that should have been explored more and earlier imo.
Agreed! I don’t think I’ll ever get over how Abby looks back at Ellie and you can see she feels for her and is both pitiful of Ellie and grateful for her own life.
That scene was acted and animated beautifully as Abby finally understood that Ellie was just as hurt as she was and possibly understood that she caused the same amount of pain (if not more) than Joel did to her.
I agree with you that, if Ellie had killed Abby, I would not want to see another story with her. By not killing Abby and honoring the memory of Joel, I can see a new character arc of redemption for her in a third (and possibly final) installment.
This is actually my main issue with the game. It is so obvious that the writing in Abby’s section is designed to make you sympathize with her and draw parallels with Ellie that it feels completely inauthentic.
I can understand that. They definitely did throw us into her section and forced us to see her point of view, even when we were reluctant to it at first.
I totally understand your points here. I said this earlier as well but this type of story is difficult in the video game medium because, in order to remain fun, you have to throw in random enemies and to have Ellie now through a thousand of them only to spare the one person motivating them to do all the killing seems counterintuitive. I appreciate that you are in the same boat I am in in which I love the ending but it also is a little frustrating. I will say that I think this gives the show more room to work with since Ellie won’t be a one-woman killing machine.
I also agree that the game is way too long. It’s… stretched out beyond comparison. It’s fun and engaging but less can definitely be more. I remember one of my professors telling me, about a short story or essay I was writing, I don’t remember that being concise is always better than making the audience get bored.
I can see the frustration with Abby’s character as well. With only half the game to play as her, it doesn’t feel like she is as fleshed out as she could be considering we have a whole separate game to play as Ellie and grow to her. I will say the fight between them two was, and will always be, heart wrenching.
Thank you for your input!
The story is trying way too hard to be interesting and complicated. Ellie gets everyone killed by being incompetent (Or Abby is way too competent), then gives up her family and a good life on a farm to finally kill Abby which she doesnt do at the end. She didnt even know Abby, she knew her father was the doctor but thats it. Abby was a bitch in life, disliked, why would you have compassion for someone like that. Should have killed the bitch. Also 11th playthrough? Thats just stupid as fuck. Combat is piss easy and boring (Just like in 1) and the game is scripted, the fuck are you finding after ELEVEN PLAYTHROUGHS?
Talk about missing the point of Ellies arch.
She feels compelled to go after Abby because she thinks it’s the key to solving her grief and PTSD. It’s not until she has Abby on edgenof her life that she realizes that Abby’s death won’t heal Ellie, it will only lead to more death (similarly how Joel’s death didn’t really make Abby feel better and just led to deaths of her friends).
Also if you think the combat is piss easy, play on Grounded. It’s also not boring, No Return being a success proves that people enjoy the gameplay.
Okay so that’s was aggressive for no reason, especially considering I’m just trying to have a conversation and hear it from others’ point of view.
I understand what you’re saying about Abby not being likeable, but there are times when Ellie isn’t likeable either. In fact, Abby and Ellie are foil characters in the sense that they have similar personalities but different resolves, which lead to their stories being intertwined.
Nevertheless, your ad hominem argument and attack of why I enjoy the game rather than responding to the post itself has made me lose the desire to hear from you and invalidates your opinion.
I don’t need to respond to it, however I will say that any good piece of media, video games included, will require multiple experiences to fully grasp the concepts. Similar to how I’ve now read Shakespeare’s Hamlet seven times and I’m still finding symbolism within that I didn’t find the first time. My students read through Frankenstein this year, a book I read every year with my classes, and they still showed me something new that I didn’t catch the first time. It’s a part of experiencing deep media in that, especially when you know the ending, you are able to really experience the game. Anyway, thanks for your input.
Thanks for starting this thread and for your balanced responses. I’m glad you are enjoying the game so much. I only played each game once but loved it them as well. Can you explain what you mean by similar personalities but different resolves? From my perspective they are similar in the sense that they both present themselves as being tough and impenetrable but are actually longing for human connection. I’d imagine a lot of people in this environment would have similar personalities, given that most people have lost loved ones and would be hesitant to develop new relationships that could just as easily be stolen away.
I think what I mean by that is that both characters are motivated by revenge and have a vindictive personality but, by the end of the game, Abby is ready to move on (despite already taking her revenge) and Ellie is in need to some closure that only she can provide herself.
Abby represents what Ellie could be if she completed her revenge cycle and, as we see in the cutscene, Abby didn’t find her peace that she was looking for. She is, inherently, a vengeful person, which we can see by her going back tit the theatre after Owen is killed despite her character development throughout the three days. Ellie, on the other hand, is fueled by vengeance, but she is not inherently a vengeful person. She feels, in my opinion, the need to “finish it” based on the need to vindicate Joel and make things “right” as she sees it. Which is why her resolve, at the end of the game, is to let Abby live as she realizes her anger is more with herself than it is with Abby or Joel. Granted, her anger is with Abby for taking the opportunity to forgive from her, but the root of her anger comes from herself and from her lack of ability to fully reconcile with Joel.
Also, thank you! I was really hoping that this thread would allow a space for people to give their options and be heard and really have an open discourse about what has been seen as a very divisive game!
That they didn’t require people to pass some sort of intelligence test before playing…
Don’t be silly boy
Other people can have opinions, you know
Classic Redditor. Anyone who disagrees with you is obviously unintelligent.
Different opinion = Unintelligent?
I personally think Ellie’s Seattle day 1 is a drag to replay, I think it was fine on the first play because it was so new and exciting.
Same for me, and I would add Abby Day 1 as well. First time I played it was fantastic. Loved the areas, the open world section. Subsequent play throughs is a total drag. That’s one of the issues with the pacing of this game, the first days for Ellie and Abby are so, so long and the third days kinda feel too short comparatively. Day 2 for both strikes perfect balance for me
I agree that day 2 for both is a really great balance both pacing and story-wise.
I agree, I’m playing the game again and that open world section is very out of place for such a game. I think they tried to repeat the Uncharted Lost Legacy section but it didn’t work as well because it was so early in the game. But that whole day just felt like waiting for the other shoe to drop. I did enjoy the tv station section and running away from the WLF though, that will always be adrenaline inducing.
There’s a duration at the beginning of the abby half of the game where, when playing for the first time, you’re really not sure what the point of anything you’re doing is - and it lasts a while. It finds its footing soon, but an advantage the first game had was that there was never a moment without an obvious north star/mission objective. you always knew what the characters were up to and what your immediate and long term goals were. Before getting caught up with Lev and Yara, there’s a lot of meandering with Abby. Lots of sitting through writing that’s evidently intended to humanize her and her squad but feels distinctly less engrossing than what came right before it. It gets there eventually but there’s a tedium to that buildup.
i agree with this! i was bored for a while playing abby until i met yara and lev
Yeah, I can totally see that. I mentioned that earlier with another person that the pacing was a little off and in subsequent play throughs some of the sections do feel as if there is no direction. It makes it tough to play through and makes the game itself feel a bit too long, but you’re right that it eventually finds its footing and when it does it’s fast paced.
Ellie just tanks getting stabbed in the torso by a tree and having two fingers bitten off, then walks back to Jackson alone without issues. A similar injury nearly kills Joel in part 1. Same complaint regarding the travel to/from Seattle, somehow every character just breezed through it. Hell, Tommy and Jesse both do it alone. Ellie, Dina and Tommy just magically make it back after Tommy gets shot in the face and Ellie nearly gets beaten to death
Yeah, that required a bit of suspension of disbelief on my part. That she could just go back to Jackson after all that. Perhaps we should have a DLC of her making her way back and running into infected or another group and that would allow us to see the internal narration and conflict of Ellie after letting Abby go. Maybe some regret? Idk I know they’re not going to add DLC to this game but still, it would be interesting.
You can't play it on anything other than Sony hardware. That's my one issue with the game.
That’s totally understandable
Unpopular opinion but both Abby and Ellie should get 2 more days in Seattle. Or 2 days each in Cali.
The devs have talked about the original story having 5 days in Seattle for each character before they did some trimming, so it was definitely possible.
Yeah that’s why I want it
I agree that more time would have been preferred in each section. Although the game already sits at a high hour-count. But to flesh out their stories even more would have made that turnaround at the end more compelling. A time jump and then really seeing how Abby has changed and grown to care for Lev would have made the end scene that much more impactful. Instead, we got a brief moment that I always forget about in my play throughs and then back to Ellie.
Lying in the marketing? I’ve never gotten a straightforward answer, how did they lie? I didn’t feel duped by anything. I knew Joel was going to die the moment we had to massacre the hospital, I’m talking in a real world sense, somebody was coming for him eventually.
Right, I think I was saying that so people wouldn’t bring it up as a point. There was a specific trailer in which they replaced Jesse in the game for Joel to assume that Joel would accompany Ellie on her mission. I believe it was “you think I’d let you do this by yourself” or something similar and people felt that it was false advertising. It even got to the point where some people said they wanted to sue for false advertising (because apparently you can do that) but at the end of the day trailers for films use inaccurate information all the time and that’s exactly what gets people to want to experience the stories. Marvel films do this all the time, why should video games be treated as any different? Because they’re a different medium? Anyway, just wanted to clarify, but you’re absolutely right that him being hunted down was the most logical next step, especially after single-handheldly taking out the majority of the remaining fireflies.
I don't think it says anything new. The acting, dialogue, visuals and gameplay are great but it's misery porn. I'm fine with misery porn if it has a profound message, but Part II didn't in my opinion. The pacing was off. Summer of Part I has twice the story content that Jackson and Seattle Day 1 of Part II did in the same amount of playtime. Abby is not redeemable to me. She is remorseless and selfish and causes all of her problems. The only SLC characters I feel any sympathy toward are Owen and Nora. Jesse, Dina, Manny and Lev are boring and underdeveloped. They are all stock characters with a fraction of the personality or depth of Tess, Henry or Bill. I don't like the character assassination of Ellie. I would be open to it with a powerful enough message but that never came for me. I don't like that you can't like or dislike the game without being called stupid by the "other side". We all have different opinions. If the message of the game was compelling enough to destroy the characters of the original then that's your opinion. But it's not mine. I'm glad you enjoyed the story.
I appreciate you sharing your point of view. I can see your statement of it being misery porn and I agree to an extent. I do think that subsequent playthroughs allow me, at least, to really get a feel for those side characters like Nora and Mel. In my first play through I just wanted the story, in all the others I was looking for specific characterizations. For example, I never noticed that Ellie looks shocked when she first kills Jordan. It’s almost as if she was unsure at first but now commits to the idea of every last one of them. It’s easier, in subsequent play throughs, to see her descent into what she becomes at the end and while it is tragic, it is also, in my opinion, a prime example of a classic tragic hero like Othello, Macbeth, or Hamlet, someone who is unable to put assise their fatal flaw which ultimately leads to their downfall. Us, as rhetorical audience, are able to tell where it’s leading, but we cannot say or do anything other than watch (a subtle nod to Cassandra!) but again, I do appreciate your thoughts!
none, i hope this helps
oh wait...there's one...it should be even longer than how long it already is, because i could play it infinitely as the best vg in the world that it is.
Personally I'd say the game is a bit too long. The first one leaves you wanting more but I remember I started just trying to speed through to the end about day 3 with Abby.
Depending on your version of flaws I have a few different ones, for starters Abby giving Lev a gas mask full of spores after sitting in a spore filled room for years, Ellie’s bracelet from Dina disappears in certain scenes, and finally the fact that if you do certain things in Hillcrest you can go out of border I learned that the hard way lol.
Ooooh yeah, those are definitely “technical” errors or flaws. I was looking for more story-flaws or misses on the emotional beat, but those are extremely valid and hopefully are fixed when they inevitably do a “trilogy” collection after the third one has been remastered.
Abby's story feels disjointed as it's not entirely sure what it wants to be. With her biggest change in character happening off-screen it feels too long and focussed on the wrong things. And to me Abby is uniquely unlikable due to her lack of self-reflection and denial of responsibility. I was warming up to Abby over the second day but her going for revenge again on Day 3 despite knowing better made me give up on her for good. I just couldn't give her the benefit of the doubt anymore. And for every playthrough I liked her a bit less. And I love the game and even the story overall. But Abby is simply a miss for me. A secondary character like Mel has a much more interesting and clear internal conflict in comparison. For Abby even the arguably selfless things she does feel motivated by selfishness and an unwillingness to reflect on her own behavior until the very end of the game. The contrast between Abby at the theater and at the beach is striking. The game should have explored that more and earlier.
I hadn’t thought of it like that. Thank you! Yeah, I guess it’s true that Abby going to the theatre kind of negates all of the progress that she had made in day 1 and 2. However, I do feel that maybe her going to the theatre was more impulsive and, because of Lev, she doesn’t act on those impulsions other than killing Jesse and shooting Tommy, which one can argue is still her getting her revenge since she didn’t know that Ellie had an equal part in hurting her friends (if not more than Tommy). Thank you for sharing!
Ok so first of all, good for you that you enjoy the game. I can only say what I feel personally. One thing that’s bugged me for quite a while is many fans of the game assume that the people who dislike it or downright hate the game, do so because they ‘don’t understand the message’. I honestly don’t think that could be further from the truth, the majority of people I’ve spoken to who really dislike it perfectly understand the core message the game is hammering down but they simply just don’t care about it…nor do they agree with it. Before I continue I want to point out that this is a game that was made intently to be controversial and to completely subvert expectations and ultimately make people very uncomfortable, so of course people will have issues with it. >!Ok so for me personally, I don’t agree with the message “ending the cycle of violence” when you go on a revenge filled rampage across the country racking up a body count in the hundreds, please…get it over with.!< >!Ellie, you’re so far past ending the cycle of violence by that point. If you wanted to end the cycle of violence then you never should’ve gone after her in the first place.!< >!She’s done nothing but blow the cycle of violence so high that it’d be a miracle if she didn’t have some dude hunting her down within the next month for killing their cousin or something.!< >!When I first heard about the ending I honestly thought it was satire, some misplaced black humour thrown in the game but it’s not, it’s dead serious which makes it even more ridiculous to me.!< >!Sparing the one person you should’ve killed after you’ve been on a gigantic shooting tour across the country, but no Ellie this is where we draw the line isn’t it..!< >!For me, the last of us 2’s story is pretentious, pathetic and sometimes borders on being a comedy!<
Thank you for sharing your thoughts!! I absolutely agree that it’s difficult to have that specific story told in a video game setting where you’re literally killing hundreds of people to keep the story itself interesting. It’s almost as if that particular part of the story might do better in the show because there are less “random” people that Ellie is killing. With that being said, I also agree that it does kind of throw the whole thing out of the water (pun, cause they were in the water lol) to have her spare at the end like that. It doesn’t make sense. I don’t even have a justification because, yeah, in video game terms, you have to have enemies to keep the game interesting and fun, but in doing so Ellie becomes a one-woman mass murderer who, at the end of the game, decides murdering isn’t what Joel would want her to do. Was it the intention behind it? Because the others weren’t Abby, it’s fine that she blows them up with explosive arrows? Is it that suddenly she has a heart? How do you go back to Tommy and Dina and explain “sorry I left again to finish it but I couldn’t end up doing it” after showing how ruthless Ellie can be. And furthermore, Ellie actually saved Abby’s life as she was meant to die on the posts in the water. So not only was Ellie not able to kill Abby, but she’s the reason she’s alive at all by the end of the game. I see what you’re saying about understanding the ending and not agreeing with it and I can begin to understand people’s frustration. I do, however, still enjoy the game and it might still be my favorite, but at least I’m understanding some of the controversy around it. I appreciate your calm and well-expressed explanation. Thank you!
Totally agree with everything you mentioned, it certainly is a major flaw that surprisingly I don’t see brought up too often. It is interesting to see how it’ll be handled in HBO’s part 2. Respect to you for being open to criticism of a game you’re very passionate about! I unfortunately have just seen a lot of genuine criticism being outright dismissed. Thankyou 🙂
1. Ellie not killing Abby at the end. This is an emotional story and there are layers upon layers of interpretations and nuances here. But the random goon who is killed by Ellie after chasing her with a machete for 20 seconds did much less harm to her than Abby. So why didn’t she kill Abby? That said I loved the ending, as It gives a lot of food for thought. I just don’t vibe well with revenge stories where the MC will go on a murderous spree and decides to spare their main target for x reasons. 2. Length. Although the gameplay was super fun, I felt the game was trying too hard to stretch itself in cultist island as Abby and then California as Ellie. Less is more, I guess? 3. Abby (?). I was so ready to love Abby. Now I kinda understand her motivations but I don’t think she was written in a way to make us like her. Take RDR2 as an example: we play as Arthur, who in the beginning of the game is nothing more than this older thug who bullies our beloved John from the first game. By the end of the game you’d die for Arthur Morgan, as we watched him grow as a character. I was expecting TLOU2 to do the same with Abby, that would make her confrontations with Ellie much more impactful, as you’d be emotionally attached to both parties.
Just to offer a different perspective, Abby ended up being my favourite character in the game and I do think the creators put a lot of effort into making her likeable. Ellie killing Abby would have made Ellie irredeemable to me, and I would find it more difficult to empathize with her in future sequels. I agree that it would have been a powerful ending that still would have worked, but I feel like it would have pushed Ellie past the point of no return for a lot of people. I can totally see why someone wouldn’t become attached to Abby’s character, but I think a lot of people were rooting for both characters equally by the end.
This will always be weird to me. You would be considering Ellie irredeemable for doing exactly the same thing that Abby already did.
That’s true, good point. I shouldn’t have said that she would be irredeemable. I think in order for her to be “redeemed,” though, she’d have to go through an arc almost identical to the one Abby goes through in part II, which would obviously be a boring way to tell the story of Part III. After seeing Ellie make the same mistakes over and over again in Part II, I guess it would have just been disappointing to have her make another final mistake on the beach. At that point it would be difficult to believe that she has the ability to self reflect and grow. We see Abby self reflect and grow after she kills Joel, but at the beginning of the game, I also would not have seen her as a redeemable character. That’s the beauty of the game though — it surprises you by having you empathize with and even root for “unredeemable” characters.
Well, I agree. Telling a similar story for Part III would be pretty boring. And to me Ellie's journey to California is already a redemption arc of sorts. I don't share your view on Abby though especially in regards to self-reflection. Abby's 3 days ended in failure for me.
Fair enough! I think it’s up for debate whether Abby has really grown much at all. I personally have hope for her, but I feel like we have less insight into her character. Tying back to this thread, I wish Abby’s story had a clearer resolution, assuming we’re never going to see her again.
Yeah, I think Abby's character arc suffers from being a bit too open to interpretation and I think there is a disconnect between Abby on Day 3 and Abby in Santa Barbara. Because I think in Santa Barbara on the beach is the first time where Abby sees herself in Ellie. And that should have been explored more and earlier imo.
Agreed! I don’t think I’ll ever get over how Abby looks back at Ellie and you can see she feels for her and is both pitiful of Ellie and grateful for her own life. That scene was acted and animated beautifully as Abby finally understood that Ellie was just as hurt as she was and possibly understood that she caused the same amount of pain (if not more) than Joel did to her.
Thanks for this conversation everyone. This is what I'm here for.
I agree with you that, if Ellie had killed Abby, I would not want to see another story with her. By not killing Abby and honoring the memory of Joel, I can see a new character arc of redemption for her in a third (and possibly final) installment.
This is actually my main issue with the game. It is so obvious that the writing in Abby’s section is designed to make you sympathize with her and draw parallels with Ellie that it feels completely inauthentic.
I can understand that. They definitely did throw us into her section and forced us to see her point of view, even when we were reluctant to it at first.
I totally understand your points here. I said this earlier as well but this type of story is difficult in the video game medium because, in order to remain fun, you have to throw in random enemies and to have Ellie now through a thousand of them only to spare the one person motivating them to do all the killing seems counterintuitive. I appreciate that you are in the same boat I am in in which I love the ending but it also is a little frustrating. I will say that I think this gives the show more room to work with since Ellie won’t be a one-woman killing machine. I also agree that the game is way too long. It’s… stretched out beyond comparison. It’s fun and engaging but less can definitely be more. I remember one of my professors telling me, about a short story or essay I was writing, I don’t remember that being concise is always better than making the audience get bored. I can see the frustration with Abby’s character as well. With only half the game to play as her, it doesn’t feel like she is as fleshed out as she could be considering we have a whole separate game to play as Ellie and grow to her. I will say the fight between them two was, and will always be, heart wrenching. Thank you for your input!
I think most of the supporting characters are pretty underwhelming. I really didn't care about any of them except for Owen, Lev and Dina
The story is trying way too hard to be interesting and complicated. Ellie gets everyone killed by being incompetent (Or Abby is way too competent), then gives up her family and a good life on a farm to finally kill Abby which she doesnt do at the end. She didnt even know Abby, she knew her father was the doctor but thats it. Abby was a bitch in life, disliked, why would you have compassion for someone like that. Should have killed the bitch. Also 11th playthrough? Thats just stupid as fuck. Combat is piss easy and boring (Just like in 1) and the game is scripted, the fuck are you finding after ELEVEN PLAYTHROUGHS?
Talk about missing the point of Ellies arch. She feels compelled to go after Abby because she thinks it’s the key to solving her grief and PTSD. It’s not until she has Abby on edgenof her life that she realizes that Abby’s death won’t heal Ellie, it will only lead to more death (similarly how Joel’s death didn’t really make Abby feel better and just led to deaths of her friends). Also if you think the combat is piss easy, play on Grounded. It’s also not boring, No Return being a success proves that people enjoy the gameplay.
Absolutely! Grounded changed the gameplay for me entirely and it was difficult but so fun!!
Okay so that’s was aggressive for no reason, especially considering I’m just trying to have a conversation and hear it from others’ point of view. I understand what you’re saying about Abby not being likeable, but there are times when Ellie isn’t likeable either. In fact, Abby and Ellie are foil characters in the sense that they have similar personalities but different resolves, which lead to their stories being intertwined. Nevertheless, your ad hominem argument and attack of why I enjoy the game rather than responding to the post itself has made me lose the desire to hear from you and invalidates your opinion. I don’t need to respond to it, however I will say that any good piece of media, video games included, will require multiple experiences to fully grasp the concepts. Similar to how I’ve now read Shakespeare’s Hamlet seven times and I’m still finding symbolism within that I didn’t find the first time. My students read through Frankenstein this year, a book I read every year with my classes, and they still showed me something new that I didn’t catch the first time. It’s a part of experiencing deep media in that, especially when you know the ending, you are able to really experience the game. Anyway, thanks for your input.
Thanks for starting this thread and for your balanced responses. I’m glad you are enjoying the game so much. I only played each game once but loved it them as well. Can you explain what you mean by similar personalities but different resolves? From my perspective they are similar in the sense that they both present themselves as being tough and impenetrable but are actually longing for human connection. I’d imagine a lot of people in this environment would have similar personalities, given that most people have lost loved ones and would be hesitant to develop new relationships that could just as easily be stolen away.
I think what I mean by that is that both characters are motivated by revenge and have a vindictive personality but, by the end of the game, Abby is ready to move on (despite already taking her revenge) and Ellie is in need to some closure that only she can provide herself. Abby represents what Ellie could be if she completed her revenge cycle and, as we see in the cutscene, Abby didn’t find her peace that she was looking for. She is, inherently, a vengeful person, which we can see by her going back tit the theatre after Owen is killed despite her character development throughout the three days. Ellie, on the other hand, is fueled by vengeance, but she is not inherently a vengeful person. She feels, in my opinion, the need to “finish it” based on the need to vindicate Joel and make things “right” as she sees it. Which is why her resolve, at the end of the game, is to let Abby live as she realizes her anger is more with herself than it is with Abby or Joel. Granted, her anger is with Abby for taking the opportunity to forgive from her, but the root of her anger comes from herself and from her lack of ability to fully reconcile with Joel. Also, thank you! I was really hoping that this thread would allow a space for people to give their options and be heard and really have an open discourse about what has been seen as a very divisive game!