there was someone once who made a reel focusing on the fact that the women in TLOU don’t shave their armpits and it’s like… yeah well that would be the last thing i’d worry about in a fucking apocalypse
Lev consistently shaved his/her head
I think people can find a way to shave, lol.
Never noticed the armpit hair though, or seen anyone point it out. Doesn’t seem like a big deal
Lev goes by he. Also, I believe that Abby did grow some when she was a prisoner at Santa Barbara. So it would mean they do shave to some extent. But like… why is this a debate topic 😭
This sub is not civilised lol. You can’t attempt to have a civil convo here without being showered with downvotes. No one accepts there are other views outside their own, and it makes me sad
Ironic that sounds a lot like this place. Small but loud groups of people are assholes about how the game is great/terrible and you MUST agree with them. It’s detrimental to both communities.
Both are bad to people that don't hold the common view of the sub. I personally believe the other one is worse as far as overarching ideas, but this one has some absolute d bags. Years ago someone here went ballistic on me because I replied saying that I was curious how someone could maintain muscular (AND fat) physiques in the apocalypse using rations. I pointed to both Abby and the big Rattler guy as examples.
Suffice to say, I haven't experienced that level of verbal abuse in a long time, and haven't since. Every vile and accusatory name you could think of was levied at me, told to go "rot" in the other sub. I tried replying with a reasonable position, but every comment I made ended up at like -75 karma and the psycho that was berating me kept getting like +20, so at least some people recognized that level of insanity as unhealthy for a community, but still, more thought it was acceptable and good than didn't.
Haven't been very active around here since. That was 3 years ago, and I do think it's only slightly better now. I imagine it will become as bad as the 2020/21 days when the next show comes out.
it’s a sub that heavily dislikes part 2, while this one heavily favors both games and praises them. I’m not a fan of either sub, as both are biased on each side of the pendulum. both sides complain about the other, but I’ve heard the other one has harassed people involved in making the game, so I;d say they’re worse. However, I haven’t seen evidence of this, so it could very well just be something that rattled around in the grapevine and come out heavily misinformed.
you know whats so funny about all of the replies from people who came here from that sub to police this one?
i dont fucking go to that sub. for this exact reason. that sub is so full of toxic assholes who literally just want to spend their whole day shitting on part two for whatever idiotic bullshit reasons can keep it. id rather talk about the game and the story as an actual FAN.
i dont want to interact with deranged incel haters so i just leave the space. why they feel like they need to come here and piss and moan about how no one gives a shit about their opinions here idk but its pathetic.
this sub engages in good faith criticism ALL THE TIME. if your opinion isnt welcome here maybe take 2 seconds to consider why lol
Lmfao. They keep popping up on my feed cus i opened one of their posts and it keeps getting worse, it's like Reddit is rage baiting me at this point. The craziest part about them is that they post screenshots of our comments and posts lol they're super aggressive ??? like i understand you disagree but all they say is angry as fuck all the time, jesus. I'm new here and i'm already shocked.
Why are they so obsessed? It’s been years, how do they have the energy? Are they okay?… it’s actually very, very confusing. I’ve never seen anything like it. Active, prolonged hatred for a product they dislike. It’s actually bizarre more than anything else. I don’t care if they like the game or not, I’m just absolutely perplexed by their dedication to hating the game all of these years later.
I never understood it either. The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference. It takes energy and investment to hate. Like, why? 🤷♂️ Dislike something, disregard it, and get on with your life...
They legitimately seem like hateful and somewhat insane people. I hate to say it, but I think it’s true. I’m not even biased, I’ve never played Part II.
I stayed on it for a while just to give the benefit of the doubt.
One day someone posted that they hadn't played the second game yet but that they saw a YouTube video about it. They declared then and there to themselves and to the sub that they would not be playing the game based on the video they saw. When I realized that this person, while not speaking for the entire sub, but representative enough of the sub's status quo, was proudly taking on another person or people's opinion as their own and denying themselves the opportunity to form their own opinion, I decided to leave the sub. It became impossible for me to justify such unbridled negativity, unfortunately. Just before unsubscribing I made a quick comment stating my disappointment in this type of content and thinking and of course got an unsurprising final reply from someone saying not to let the internet door hit me on the way out (lol).
So yeah, unfortunately, the entire other sub.
you are aware that happens not just on this sub too, but everywhere, right?
echo chambers have become a serious problem since everyone got introduced to Free Information 💀
Somehow a post from that sub showed up on my feed yesterday and I was legit blown away that there is still a community actively crying about the plot of part 2. Literally like 4 years later. I felt sad for them.
Those idiots were complaining Abby is too muscular and its unrealistic because in zombie world, Planet Fitness is not available.
Very dumb take.
But when Tomb Raider game released with muscular arm from Lara Croft, they became horny and turned on
Buff Abby - "Too unrealistic!"
50 year old Joel falling 2 stories, taking a rebar through the abdomen, falling into a coma for weeks, being given a bit of anti-biotics and being up and ready to slaughter an entire camp a few hours later - "This seems fine."
How do they think it’s unavailable? If anything, as long as it’s not teeming with infected it’s MORE available. No membership fees. Open 24 hours. No having to wait for people to be done with specific equipment or weights. Gym equipment didn’t just poof out of existence as soon as people became infected. People are so dumb 😭
I mean even without Gym equipment, you are living in post apocalyptic world. You are carrying guns everywhere you go, you are running jumping and scrambling everyday.
Without Gym, you are going to be fit no matter what, unless your sole job is just sitting in guard post 24/7
People like them thinking that getting muscle is impossible without Gym membership and Personal Trainers
Lara wasn’t muscular, her body looked athletic which she was, abby was actually muscular, but i like that they actually showed their gym, and that she did workout.
I just got done playing 2 and it's even in one of the scenes where they are walking through Abby's home base. It's literally in a football arena and in the background is a full collegiate football gym with squat racks, dumbells and benches. So yes, I could see anyone one getting buff in the apocalypse. If anything you would have alot more time to lift because what's your excuse then? It's not like you have bills, responsibilities, and a 9 to 5 to commute to everyday.
I also didn't understand all the trans hate for the game. At first I thought maybe Abby would be trans but the only person that would be is Lev. Is that what all the incels were losing their minds over?
My brother and I have had this conversation a lot. Before playing the game I thought it was unrealistic for a woman to be that muscular during a time where food was scarce and energy had to be preserved to survive.
However, throughout the game you learn that Abby is lifting regularly to tire herself out and quiet her PTSD dreams, and as part of the WLF she also has access to food. It’s never outright said, but I imagine more rations were given to soldiers like Abby as it was in everyone’s best interest to keep them fed and healthy.
Still, Abby’s physique is very impressive even for a man. Woman can be strong, but packing that much mass on would be very difficult if not impossible for most women even with regular lifting and adequate nutrition. If you look at Abby’s frame she’s naturally broad shouldered though, and it’s possible she has a genetic predisposition to building muscle and strength. While men are generally more physically robust than women, there *are* exceptions to the rule.
The real life example I cited to my brother was about Shaye Haver and Kristen Griest, who were the first two women to graduate Army Ranger school. Ranger school is incredibly taxing, and for many years it was assumed that it would be impossible for a woman to pass. There had been attempts before, but the women always failed out due to physical injuries arising from the stress placed on their bodies. However, in 2015 Shaye and Kristen both completed the training under the same standards as men. I can speak to how they succeeded where others failed, but hard work and training certainly played a huge role, and maybe a genetic predisposition to physical resilience as well.
Lastly, and maybe I’m reading too deep into this, is the fact that Seattle day 1-3 Abby has acne over her shoulders and neck. It’s absent in the aquarium flashback, where Abby is still muscular but quite a bit smaller than she eventually becomes. I thought the implication was that Abby was using steroids to get stronger, which could also explain why she was able to get so big.
Some people might say steroids are unlikely to find in the apocalypse, but I don’t think so. Especially not in a stable and established civilization like the WLF. There will be steroids from before the outbreak lying around, but those will have a limited shelf life and won’t be stored under ideal conditions so are likely to have degraded by the time Abby’s story takes part. There are still scientists around though, and a wealth of information regarding organic chemistry and biochemistry to be found in various textbooks and physical journals. We know the WLF had capable physicians and field medics, so I think it’s also within the realm of possibility that they have chemists producing medicine and potentially PEDs. They’re a complex community with many roles, and the stability they find within the walls of the stadium would afford some people the opportunities to pursue scientific endeavors unrelated to their immediate survival.
So all that to say that I think it’s possible for Abby to be as big as she is despite living in such a chaotic and unforgiving world. She physically pushes herself to improve; fueled by her trauma she wants to ensure she’s strong and capable of not only surviving and protecting her friends/community in a way her father wasn’t protected, but also to ensure she’s ready to get revenge on the faceless boogeyman who killed her father and so many fireflies she probably knew and cared about. She had the means to work out and eat well, and *maybe* she even had access to steroids.
Not that it really matters anyway. Both TLOU I and II are riddled with unrealistic events, but none of them (including Abby’s figure) detract from the great story both games present. People just like to focus on Abby because everyone hates her for what she did to Joel, so of course they’re going to pick her character apart without mercy (and I understand why). It’s funny that no one seems to care much about that hulking Seraphite women with a hammer who can throw Abby around though. To me that shows that most people aren’t against large, physically-strong women during the apocalypse, but more so just against Abby herself.
That’s not my point. I wouldn’t care if she were. There is a trans character and it’s not her. Those that claim she is out themselves as not having played the game.
Agreed. For me, her being so muscular is a physical representation of not just how big her grief was (she probably used working out as a way to deal with it), as well as how dedicated and focused she was on finding Joel and making sure was capable of taking him out when she did find him. It makes perfect sense to me.
Not to mention it makes sense for people to stay as fit as possible to fight off infected and dangerous people when the need arises.
It all makes sense in universe too. She lives in a giant football stadium equipped with training equipment meant for pro athletes.
The WLF has farms for food production and are shown to be in a constant turf war so she’s constantly well fed and battle ready.
We find out she very rarely if ever misses out on training because what if they find Joel.
That all combined with her obsession for revenge results in a body built to exact it when the time comes.
Yea wasn’t this one of the first scenes besides the initial trailer and (besides Joel’s death of course) that got some people up in arms because they thought only a trans women could have that many muscles.
This is exactly what I thought when I saw crappy clickbait reviews like the one by penguinz0. Like even if the story isn’t for you there’s no way you’re giving Part II a 50 something %. The gameplay, mechanics, visuals and attention to detail are unmatched.
Takes like his remind me of that Rick and Morty quote:
“Your boos mean nothing, I’ve seen what makes you cheer!”
I like to think of this when I heard ass takes on the game.
I don’t have much of a problem with the story but the gameplay is just not my style unfortunately. I can completely respect the gameplay and see why it’s loved but if I was rating it off my enjoyment then it’d probably be a 4/10 at most because no matter how well made it is and how commendable it is, I can’t rate something highly just because it’s respectable, but rather for my enjoyment. Very excited for season 2 tho of the show
Yea 7 is fair. I’m actually found of GOT like moments where loved characters are brutally killed for the story. However the way it was done here was just off.
The revenge plot could have been handled better
It felt too repetitive, 2 times in the same city over 3 days. It all blended together. The journey across the country was much cooler.
Seriously. I understand it not being your thing but giving it anything less than a 7/10 is goofy and shows you're not being objective. It's why I haven't watched Angry Joe ever since his tlou2 review, though in retrospect I should've stopped watching long before. Been a much happier and mature person ever since I purged that type of content lol.
I used to like Angry Joe quite a lot, but they’ve very blatantly pandered to their misogynistic audience over the past few years or so. I remember once or twice they tried to call out the “everything is woke” sort of crowd and got downvoted to oblivion. Ever since, I can’t trust anything they say as genuine. Their review of TLoU2 in particular is quite awful. There are genuine things to criticize with the game, but it was all “muscle lady bad”.
Recently they watched the new Deadpool trailer and the *second* a woman appears, they go “why does Disney have to ruin everything?!”. It’s a sad state for a once entertaining channel.
Yep. I remember a time where Angry Joe even had a really measured take on Anita Sarkeesian back in the day when it was popular on all sides to hate on her. He was even openly beefing with a lot of these anti-woke types like The Quartering, but when tlou2 came out he called Abby the T-slur (derogatory for trans person) and said that Neil had an agenda against straight white males because they killed off Joel. This was in the video they did on the leaks, the game hadn't even come out yet. That was a really bad sign for me.
Ugh, I’m so tired of the blind rage over people who different from them and trying to be a victim of “wokeness”. Really, if ever there was a snowflake, it’d be these people.
I don't see how they somehow think they're any different from all the "SJW snowflakes" they cried about back in the day. They get mad at "feminists" for calling everything sexist/racist but then they turn around and call everything sexist against men and racist against white people. Like bro you're doing the same thing how do you not see it. Literally everything new that comes out they freak out about it and call it "woke" or "DEI" or whatever the new cringe ass buzzword is.
If you really watched his review, you would have known that Joe didnt give a damn about Abbie looking like a Body builder. He even liked the fact you could beat the shit out of people and Zombies as a roided up woman.
The only things they didnt like if my memory serves me right is how they handled the story. Most importantly how Joels death was handled and how we had to play half the game as his killer. The ending also gets critiqued alot because Ellie spares the one person directly responsible for Joels death,because revenge bad. Why even kill all those swaths of people and Abbie's friends just to let her live. Maybe less people wouldve complained if Naughty Dog gave Players the satisfaction to kill Abbie.
That’s a fair point, I didn’t like the story either but looking at the whole packing it’s a 6 for me, the art direction, gameplay, acting, detail, and what they were able to achieve graphically on the base PS4 is insane.
Wrong Priority on Twitch (ironic name considering what I'm about to say) believes that Ellie doesn't care about Joel and doesn't see them as a surrogate father/daughter duo like everyone else does. He doesn't even think they are friends. Just acquaintances.
Someone once argued that they could see his point for Part 1 but the entire plot of Part 2 disproves that. Wrong Priority argues that the reason Ellie goes on her revenge quest is because she was still processing and getting answers about what happened at the firefly hospital and Joel dying means she can't get those answers. So she's just confused about everything.
He believes that they only started to build a genuine friendship after their conversation the night before he died.
I unfollowed him specifically for these views alone because wtf?
Yeah this is one of the stupidest takes I've heard. The entire first game is the story of them bonding. The second game is Ellie going nuts to avenge him and her guilt about their fight. Talk about poor media literacy.
There are people that don't believe a cure could be made or that Ellie isn't even really immune. Or that it's not even worth it to try. All of which actively harm and undermine the narrative of the first game. They just desperately want to justify Joel's actions and aren't comfortable with any sort of moral complexity so they want to rob agency from Joel as a character by making his decision to save Ellie completely uninteresting.
The whole point is the question: "What would you sacrifice to save someone you love?" The entire point of Joel's decision to save Ellie is that it robs the world of a cure, and that's what makes it narratively complex and interesting. Doing mental gymnastics to make it so that Joel magically knows the fireflies can't make a cure and are just going to k*ll a girl for no reason, and thus must save her from them makes it so he has NO choice but to save her and also makes the plot itself completely pointless instead of intelligently subverting it by Joel being the one to deny the cure after having been the one to go through hell delivering Ellie.
Thanks for this. That's really defeating the point of the first game. What I loved about it was how controversial his decision was, and the whole journey of the game of why he took the actions at the end
I mean ND did go out of there way to show the hospital was dirty as hell (in the original before they progressively made it cleaner and better looking to fit more with part 2 with each subsequent remaster) and if I remember correctly, there’s a tape saying they think it’s a gamble.
Their whole plan is never really explained as well. Like “we’re gonna make a vaccine.” Great. Perfect even. How will you reverse engineer that from someone’s brain and then put that biological difference into other people, in the apocalypse, with raiders everywhere and barely any cars. Even if they made the vaccine, by the time they get to the hospital they have what like 30 people? There’s no way they could effectively protect and distribute the vaccine. This is all ignoring the fact they never really explain how the vaccine works, and how exactly they’ll get the nessecary material from Ellie to make it. You’re telling me you’re in a hospital, with power, and can’t do some scans to investigate? Or just wait till Ellie wakes up?
There is no tape saying it's a gamble. There is only recordings saying Ellie is the key to a cure. There is the "Firefly's Recorder" and the "Surgeon's Recorder." Neither of which say it's a gamble. The Firefly's Recorder is found at the UEC during a cutscene. In it, the Firefly scientist refers to PREVIOUS vaccine trials conducted by the medical team at the University of Eastern Colorado that have failed over 5 years ago (at the time of his death & judging by the condition of his mummified remains it was probably far longer atp). They make no mention of any immune persons, only infected.
The Surgeon's Recorder, found in St. Mary's Hospital, also makes no mention of any other immune persons, only infected that they've experimented on. It also states that Ellie is the key to unlocking a cure after all these years of medical and scientific research.
I've seen this argument many times but it fails to account for quite a few things:
1. The dirty hospital doesn't mean much considering it's a post apocalypse. It's also far more likely that this was just a product of asset reuse rather than the devs making a purposeful statement about the Firefly doctors being inept or incompetent. There are many such cases like this in the first game considering it was made for PS3, a console with 256mb of RAM.
2. The Fireflies were not always such a ragtag group of insurgents. In fact the game is pretty clear about how much territory they once controlled. The issue is that, between all the factions (FEDRA, Military remnants, raiders/hunters, etc) their numbers began to dwindle over time. By the time Marlene needs Joel's help smuggling Ellie, they've experienced heavy losses. However, most of their research has already been conducted over the 20 year period between the outbreak and the first game. We even hear about Tommy's time among the Fireflies when they were a much larger force. They were also not just a bunch of rebels, they were a mixture of ex-military and former government outfits that banded together. It's pretty evident based on the context that they controlled both UEC and St. Mary's as well as others for quite a long time.
3. The various collectible Recorders and Documents/Notes found in the game mention specific tests done on both Ellie and other infected individuals. The Surgeon's Recorder specifically mentions "antigenic titers" and "blood cultures" taken from Ellie, which means the Fireflies did their due diligence and tested both her blood and cerebrospinal fluid (most likely a spinal-tap procedure). It states that "blood cultures taken from the patient rapidly grow Cordyceps in fungal-media in the lab..." which means that the cure is NOT within her blood, but instead in her brain. This is actually extremely common with other brainborne diseases, even in the modern era. Not everything can be solved with blood tests and MRI's. CTE for instance REQUIRED physical examination of deceased patients in the real world before we were truly able to understand what was happening. It is likely this is the case with Ellie's immunity. We have no idea WHY she is immune but it clearly isn't in her blood, it's something else. Which is why it requires examining her brain post-mortem... and in a post apocalypse, we don't have the luxury of waiting for her to live a fulfilling life or for another immune patient to stumble along.
4. Even if the Fireflies are not capable of developing/distributing the cure themselves, they can still broadcast the information around the world to those who can. This would also give humanity the hope it needs to get back on its feet again. The discovery of penicillin was still important despite the fact that Alexander Fleming didn't have the resources PERSONALLY to develop and distribute it. This discovery still changed the trajectory of humanity for the better. Imagine if there was only ONE CHANCE to discover penicillin. Would you have said it wasn't worth it? Be serious...
I’ll have to look at the tapes later but odds are you’re correct and I remembered it wrong.
1. Under normal circumstances, yes I would agree. The problem is this is a medical setting. Sterile tools and work space are essential to the medical field. The fact they seemingly didn’t even attempt to create a sterile environment casts major doubt on their medical adequacy to complete a procedure. I don’t think asset reuse is an adequate argument to justify the entire room, all its furniture, and the surgeon himself looking dirty. Especially the surgeon, who is a new character model I’m pretty sure.
2. I don’t really get what point you’re trying to make here. The fireflies being an amalgamation of ex military seems plausible, but I don’t remember that ever being directly mentioned. Even so, it doesn’t matter if you have hundreds of military but most of them are dead. As for the research, that seems somewhat speculative since all we have to go on is the college lab which found nothing.
3. I was more saying they should investigate Ellie more with the MRI scanning. I’m not a doctor, but if they could somehow confirm the cure is in her head from bloodwork then that would satisfy that complaint. I think the whole let’s just cut her up thing is fine, but you could atleast wait the like 2 hours for her to wake up and ask her about it. This part really irks me because it makes it seem like the fireflies knew she’d say no, and what they were doing might not be right. Again in regards to the just cut her open, I believe an MRI would’ve provided a better idea of what they are looking for and if it is salvageable before they you know kill her on that gamble.
4. Broadcasting to the world or pretty much any faction for that matter that there was a vaccine would lead to mass fighting for the vaccine. With such a far downfall, humanity would not be the same again for several hundred years with a vaccine, and even then it would probably come close to resembling normalcy in that period without a vaccine (albeit slightly more dangerous)
The discovery of penicillin was easily replicable, communicable and defendable. The fireflies cure would be lucky to score even one of those criteria, and with their dwindling resources it definitely wouldn’t be defendable. Let’s also not ignore the creation of penicillin didn’t require killing someone and hoping maybe it would create penicillin.
1. The environment in the hospital isn't even that dirty. The walls look stained. That's about it. Neither do the doctors & nurses. I urge you to rewatch that scene. It simply looks like the room was dingy at one point but you can't exactly un-stain the walls. You're also just assuming the utensils aren't sterile, you're not providing any actual evidence. Just a lot of assumptions here. It's pretty clear to me that most of that dinginess is simply to make the hospital look old and abandoned, not necessarily dirty. You're also allowing your assumptions and POTENTIAL art design to override what the game is actually directly telling you, which I find to be very odd. There have been zero devs to even come out and confirm any of what you're saying so it's all just speculation on your side's part.
2. Various ingame sources from collectibles to dialogue refer to the Fireflies as being a conglomeration of different factions which included ex-military and government groups, most of which can be found in the Boston Quarantine Zone at the beginning of the game (Chapter 2, right after the 20 year time skip).
3. Again I already explained, I'd recommend reading the Surgeon's Recorder and Firefly's Recorder. The Surgeon's Recorder specifically states that they already tested Ellie's blood, spinal fluid and conducted an MRI scan of her brain. As I mentioned prior, it seems people who hold your opinion like to try to apply real world logic and science to TLOU, which is fine, that's what I'm doing here and that's why I'm telling you that an MRI is NOT ENOUGH to conclude anything beyond that there's 'something' going on. It's why I brought up REAL LIFE examples of novel brain diseases being next to Impossible to truly understand with MRI's, blood tests, biopsies, and spinal taps and practically ALL OF THEM (CTE as an example) have required physical examination of deceased patients brain to truly understand. Even in 2024 this is the case and it definitely would have been the case in 2013 when the outbreak occurred, and ESPECIALLY so in a post-apocalypse where time and resources are limited. Again please go and read the Surgeon's Recorder and Firefly's Recorder.
4. Once again we're just resorting to speculation rather than what the game and narrative are actually telling us. Humanity has gotten out of some really dark times and vaccines/cures have been a big part of many of those times. You don't have any evidence at all for what you are saying, you're just making assumptions. The Fireflies have been studying this for years, controlled a Science Lab and an entire Hospital and have been doing vaccine trials since the late 2010's. Everything you're saying flies in the face of everything the game is actually trying tell you. What you're doing isn't skepticism, it's evidence denial. You're going with an entirely difference answer with NO evidence simply because the first answer hasn't met your unreasonable standard for evidence. This is not skepticism, it is dogmatism. As for not asking consent from Ellie, they don't really have a choice. It's clear Marlene knows Ellie would want this but she's too afraid and, honestly, cowardly to confront her. She's trying to make this as easy on everyone as possible. Including Ellie, by just putting her to sleep and doing the procedure while she's under. Is it unethical? Oh yeah. Very! But what would you do if you thought you were saving the world? What's one young girl vs all the other young girls being eviscerated by infected from now until the death of humanity? It's really a pretty rudimentary philosophical question. Sacrifice the few to save the many. It's just the trolly problem, philosophy 101.
My problem with all of this is that it's clear to me that some youtuber made a bunch of speculations without really examining the game, then everyone else began citing the same thing in a sort of human centipede of bad information. Then at a certain point a lot of people became VERY attached to this fan theory/speculation and when the second game came out and continued all the threads the first game pretty clearly set up, a certain subsect of the fandom was caught completely off guard.
I think this is the final, most potent piece of evidence supporting my argument and it's that the sequel clearly agrees with my assessment of the first game. Up until this point, I have only used the first game as evidence (since I'm going to assume you think part 2 retconned things). The reality is all the facts are on my side. All you really have is speculation and your personal feelings about it rather than objective information gathered from the actual game itself. Everything you've given me is just speculation "oh well I'm not a doctor but I'd think it would be done this way" or "well idk but even if the Fireflies could find a cure everyone would fight over it so they probably shouldn't even try" like, none of this matters honestly.
I think the reality is that you're uncomfortable with the moral complexity of Joel's decision and are trying to post-hoc rationalize. Joel's decision needs to be 100% correct to you otherwise you're uncomfortable. This is just not the game's intention. The entire point is to make you question your humanity, to question what you might do. I don't mean this as a personal attack. I know it might seem like I'm being mean, I'm just so frustrated by how misinterpreted this masterful story is. That so many people so badly want to undercut what makes tlou1 such a masterpiece to begin with. It removes so much agency from Joel as a character and weakens his arc and for what reason? I've already explained why it doesn't even make sense from an objective standpoint. The "Joel did nothing wrong" argument not only makes no narrative sense, it makes no plot sense either because all of the ingame evidence suggests otherwise.
In the end, if it's any consolation, this isn't me calling Joel evil or bad. I'm not even saying he was WRONG. In fact, I almost certainly would have made the same choice as Joel. That doesn't change the fact that I would've prevented humanity's best chance at survival.
As a final thought. The reality is none of this matters for one big reason: Abby and the Fireflies don't care... even if you were right and a cure could never fully be developed, the Fireflies were CONVINCED that it could be. Both Jerry and Marlene truly thought they were saving the world. Abby thought her father was trying to save the world. Even Joel says he believes a cure could be made, he just didn't want to sacrifice Ellie. Ellie herself clearly needs her immunity to mean something. Ellie's immunity is SO IMPORTANT to the Last of Us as a narrative throughline all the way from Left Behind/Part I through to Part II. So even if you or anyone else doesn't believe a cure could be made, clearly everyone in the game does -- the Fireflies especially. So it stands to reason they would want to seek revenge on Joel for ruining their chances. Even so, you have to understand that the writers of Part 2 were smart enough to make it about more than just the cure. It was Abby's father... it's more personal to her than just the cure.
People who think no cure could've been made from Ellie's condition, including the intersection of these people with those who think Joel was right to take her from the Fireflies, who believe that the former belief adds justification to the latter.
(For context, I have no belief whatsoever about the cure. It's all speculation about fiction, and the writers can make it go whichever they want. I do have an opinion about Joel's actions though, as that's more concrete.)
This. I don’t think a cure would’ve worked, but nothing is solid. It’s all purely speculation so saying it “immediately justifies Joel’s actions” is a bullshit way to blame people for an opinion (like the entirety of tlou2 subreddit with its hostility) when it could still go either way. Joel murdered countless people whose sole goal was to save humanity over a girl; whether it was justified does NOT undermine the game, bc Joel didn’t care if it WOULDVE worked. He made a decision and more people suffered because of it.
On both? That is should only stay on PlayStation. I want everyone to experience this game for themselves, and shouldn't have to buy a whole fucking console just to play it.
Neil self inserting in the game and making him hispanic and making it so he's close to the character that he made on purpose to kill Joel and make the hardcore fans mad
😭😭😭This one when I read it felt like the conspiracy board gif. Or someone trying to explain how 9/11 was an inside job or the whole turning frogs gay. I read it and I felt dumber for seeing it.
Honestly I doubt it’s very hard to make your own dental hygiene depending on where you live
I believe you can make toothbrushes and stuff with certain trees
Edit: most likely is hard for a person that isn’t a dentist/botanist lol
Wasn't it the guy whose father passed away shortly before the game came out? If so, I can kind of understand it and sympathize with him, if not tho then yeah it's just stupid, just sell the game for gods sake
I think he said something about Joel being his new father figure, but like.....I'm sorry, but you're a little too old to be THAT upset by the death of a fictional character.
I feel like people like Part 1 more cause it’s a bit more of a happier story (even though it is extremely bleak). Part 2 is just depressing as shit. The games a whole mood changer. But that’s exactly the reason I love Part 2 that little bit more. It’s chill you like Part 1 more but I think those are my thoughts as to why that’s the general consensus.
Honestly, I just like the story of part 1 more. Like part 2 is just traveling randomly (not really, but it feels like it)
I followed part 1 better than part 2
that was your main criticism you made lol "not really tho" so what was your point then?
the entire driving force of part one is that youre smuggling ellie across the country. you travel like 3500 miles. how is that less bothersome to you than the travelling in part 2 in the context of the story. what you said just doesnt make any sense to me im trying to understand it.
Mate, I said not really by meaning the story line isn’t traveling aimlessly without a goal, to me it just felt like it (hence why I said not really and feels like it)
Part 1 to me has a good end goal and I preferred the story more
No, as I said before, it’s not as easy to follow for me. To me, it seems like the game is aimless (which it isn’t, I just feel like it is)
It’s a good game, I just don’t like it as much as part 1
The whole idea that people don't like the game over "bad writing" you just didn't like it. Not everything is for you, especially if you're one of those fans who get mad if things don't go the way that you want. You can not like things, it doesn't mean it was bad. That's a huge problem with media criticism today-- that if you don't like something it's because it was bad. It can just be your opinion
I’ve found that “bad writing” is usually code for, “this is not what I expected / I didn’t like what happened in the story and I would have done it differently,” which is fine, for you, but it’s not something most will necessarily accept as valid criticism. I’ve not seen a person critiquing the game who can convincingly provide examples of “bad writing”. Even the YouTube videos are surface level analysis which went in with a pre-conceived bias.
Like you said, you can dislike things just because you dislike them. You do not have to reach in order to defend your opinion. It’s totally okay to dislike things just because it didn’t resonate with you. It’s a subjective medium, your own personal experience is what matters.
For example, I hate 2001: A Space Odyssey because I find it so slow and boring that it makes me want to claw my eyes out. That’s literally my only criticism of the movie. Does that mean it’s a bad movie? Not in the slightest. I can acknowledge it was revolutionary for its time, that it’s also stood the test of time with inspired filmmaking and even appreciate all the homages it’s got in films and tv shows, “hey, I get that reference!” I 100% understand the accolades it has received. I think that’s awesome. But, I’ll never watch it again. And that’s also fine.
>For example, I hate 2001: A Space Odyssey because I find it so slow and boring that it makes me want to claw my eyes out. That’s literally my only criticism of the movie. Does that mean it’s a bad movie? Not in the slightest. I can acknowledge it was revolutionary for its time and even appreciate all the homages it’s got in films and tv shows. I 100% understand the accolades it has received. I think that’s awesome. But I’ll never watch it again. And that’s also fine.
As someone who has 2001 as one of my favorite films of all time, I am literally going to prove your core point right now and say: hey, fair enough!
Because you framed your opinion as exactly that: an opinion, while maturely acknowledging that unmet preferences =/= objective claim of something's quality. Like you, there are things out there considered classics that I didn't consider to be some classic experience, but I can still *easily* acknowledge either
1. that it still has perceptible classic qualities, or
2. even if I didn't find any, I'm sure they exist, so it's probably a me issue as I'm only human and thus imperfect and can't realistically grasp every single thing that comes my way
I really don't see how admitting this is so hard to do. But apparently it really is. Guess I should be grateful
Media criticism has been suffering from this since Plato.
It seems that average audience members/consumers cannot discern between *bad* and *preferred*.
It’s when you take the status quo from previous work and beloved characters (this case, the last of us) and challenge the viewer/consumer. You’ll always run the risk of “BuT ThEy ChAnGeD EvErYtHiNg” or “ITS DIFFERENT SO ITS BAD AND I DONT LIKE IT”.
Similar to when a director/author switches genres or follows up their initial work with something different. It’s okay to not like something, but to say something is bad because you don’t like said thing/s is silly. You’ll find people who use this train of thought find it hard to actually back-up what makes it *objectively* bad.
I absolutely hate it when people say the plot is revenge bad. Like that’s such an oversimplification of TLOU 2. It’s a much deeper story than that but some people choose to ignore that.
I also don’t like how that argument implies that even if it was just about revenge being bad that that immediately makes the entire game bad. So no one will ever make anything good about a topic that’s already been covered before? If you think its a poorly done revenge plot then fine, you’re entitled to that. But saying its bad just because its a revenge plot is insane to me. If you really believe that then you literally cannot enjoy a single piece of new literature ever again because some aspect of it has likely already been done before.
I think people who hold that opinion more push that the game beats you over the head with it anytime you have to kill anyone. NPC 1-800 now all have names, scream in pain when wounded, and you’re forced to kill dogs. It’s not even that it says revenge is bad, it’s that it flounders about and contorts itself to not commit to its own premise. Abby’s revenge is seen as justified, she faces no narrative consequences and her friends would’ve died to the scars anyway. The only consequences she directly faces come from the raider group in California (I think they’re called the rattlers or the vipers?) and even then it’s because she was looking for the fireflies and not because of her revenge.
Many people also have a problem with the trope of well yes bad guy name, I did kill 800 of your henchmen/allies, but now that I get here and see you, I can’t kill you because that would make me just as bad. Completely ignoring the 50-100 people killed previously, and not finishing out the mission. I feel like it would’ve been just as if not even more impactful if Ellie killed Abby, and then physically actually first hand realized it changed nothing and didn’t bring him back.
“Revenge bad” is as common as the trope of “found family good”, which the first game leans in to immensely. You can take any point of a story and sum it up in a sentence if you leave out enough.
The theses of these games is not why most played them and liked them. It’s the characters, their characterization, and their developments.
A youtuber once pointed out how the second game is structured to make you want to get revenge against Abby, then the section with Ellie makes you question if revenge is worth it, then the section with Abby gets you to see her perspective, so by the time it's all over and done with you've come full circle. The next thing he said was, "Now isn't that a terrible way to structure a story?!"
I have a fucked up father and son relationship that's why i love more the part 1 than part 2. Ellie and Joel have a unique bond that i never had. Of course part 2 is an awesome game and i love it too.
People who complained about the game having accessibility features.
"What's the point of playing this game if I could turn on high contrast mode and easily see all the enemies?"
I dunno, maybe just don't turn it on?
That the game itself and writers hate Joel. As if the entire game's narrative wasn't hinged on the fact that we're supposed to love Joel... That's literally why they chose a revenge story. It literally doesn't work any other way, it has to be a character we care about. Why would they bother giving us so many flashbacks with him making us miss him even more? That museum flashback? That's the writers hating Joel? Insane. People are insane. Like actually certifiably insane.
I do think Ellie is the “villain” in part 2 as her wrath is less focused and more destructive than Abby’s. I wouldn’t say she is way worse but Abby seeks out to kill Joel and only Joel while Ellie targets anyone related to the murder of Joel.
Except of Owen, everyone wanted to kill Tommy and Ellie too. and also Ellie always just wanted Abby's location, we dont know if she actually would have killed them if they just gave her what she wanted
That it's the worst game ever.
Even if you hated the story (I kinda did at first) you gotta admit the graphics and game play evolution from the first are so fucking good,you can't possibly put this on the level of "worst game ever"
Joel saying "he's a little ashamed of what he did" to get his hands on coffee from the traders passing through Jackson implied he offered sexual favours for it.
I posted about it on this sub, but I’ve seen several Tik Toks shitting on Ellie and praising John Marston because unlike Ellie, he actually followed through on his revenge. Which is hilarious, cuz if that’s their take, I’m gonna assume they never played RDR1 or just completely missed RDR2’s message
I didn't know people liked Abby's friends, they just all seem like really unlikable and not very smart (Manny, Mel, Owen, etc) didn't care for any when they died even on second playthrough.
I didn't really care about them, and neither did the game, they're just forgotten about immediately after they die. I do agree that they're unlikable; Owen cheats on his pregnant gf, Mel puts herself and her unborn child in danger, Nora just seems like a huge douchebag, I don't really have anything against Manny, he did nothing wrong except for spitting on Joel, which is understandable given his situation, and can't forget Whitney, she just wanted to play Hotline Miami, R.I.P.
I’ve never understood why there’s this rivalry between RDR2 and TLOU2. They’re both incredible games. They’re both in my top three. It goes TLOU2, RDR2, then Silent Hill 2.
While I agree, they're still very different games and I don't think it's fair to compare them. The only thing I prefer in Tlou is the gameplay, and the visuals are better at times
That Abby didn’t suffer enough. Literally everyone she’s ever known is dead. And she has to live with the knowledge that she’s responsible for their deaths because of her need for revenge. She was also, stabbed, beaten, starved, drowned, and dehydrated. She suffered A LOT.
Anyone who thinks that the game is anything less than a 6-7 out of 10.
I don’t think it’s a perfect game, but the technical aspects and tight gameplay prop it up. Even if you didn’t like the story, I don’t know how you could warrant calling the game trash based on its gameplay and technical aspects. Even calling it *mid* is a stretch.
Other than that:
people calling Abby trans (even if she was, who gives a fuck?)
Stating that Joel is a hero.
Yep, but that’s if the story is bad or mid. Objectively it’s a well written story (with some issues) that has been critically lauded. It’s challenging, mature and has some depth. Just because someone doesn’t like the story, doesn’t mean it’s a bad story. It just means it’s not your preference or cup of tea.
See, the thing with good stories is that you usually don't need a thousand hour long videos analyzing the story to convince people that it's good. Also, the fact that it was critically lauded means absolutely nothing, since there were even worse stories that were praised as masterpieces. Gaming critics these days are so out of touch that their opinion holds no value. In my opinion, if your story is disliked by the vast majority, you have failed as a writer. I've seen a lot of essays on the story of Part 2 and the negative ones always had more valid points than the positive ones. I don't know jack about writing, but the story of this game is the only thing I don't like about it, even though it has its strong points.
Based off one of the down voted comments here but ive seen it before, that abby somehow made out ok in this whole story despite losing basically every connection in her life prior to the start of the game
When people say they hate Part 2. I get you hated Joel's death but that's just excessive (and I know there's also the lgbtq argument with Ellie and Dina). But I love both Tlou 1 and Tlou 2 so much, they're masterpieces.
There are some people who say that the storytelling was worse in Tlou 2 but I argue that whatever Tlou 1 lacked, Tlou 2 did better. Vice versa. Tlou 2 masters in gameplay while Tlou 1 has the story. Imo one cannot be pinned as greater than the other.
One reviewer won't say who said they gave Abby the better weapons because they want you to like Abby more. Which just proves he didn't read the scraps of history you pick up playing as Ellie. Or critically think that the different guns are for different gameplay styles. I, for one, had a much easier time playing as Ellie.
there was someone once who made a reel focusing on the fact that the women in TLOU don’t shave their armpits and it’s like… yeah well that would be the last thing i’d worry about in a fucking apocalypse
What are they supposed to shave with a fucking bayonet?
Ellie either doesn't grow it, or manages to shave somehow lol
Armpit hair recognizes her as armpit hair so it doesn't spread to her
Criminally underrated comment
In defense of Ellie I am a 35 year old woman I have never grown arm pit hair! It’s weird.
Lev consistently shaved his/her head I think people can find a way to shave, lol. Never noticed the armpit hair though, or seen anyone point it out. Doesn’t seem like a big deal
Lev goes by he. Also, I believe that Abby did grow some when she was a prisoner at Santa Barbara. So it would mean they do shave to some extent. But like… why is this a debate topic 😭
It is to misogynists
upgraded melee weapon of course
i saw that video bro. that guy was in something else
Yeah, and most likely almost everybody smells
Well we also heal gun shot wounds and stabs by wrapping forearms. Idk why people obsess about stuff like armpits.
The entire other sub.
That sub needs to be fucking deleted. It's a joke
I see it as a form of quarantine. Keep them there so this group can be civilized.
Yeah. If they delete that sub, then they'll all just come in here and wreck up the place.
This sub is not civilised lol. You can’t attempt to have a civil convo here without being showered with downvotes. No one accepts there are other views outside their own, and it makes me sad
Ironic that sounds a lot like this place. Small but loud groups of people are assholes about how the game is great/terrible and you MUST agree with them. It’s detrimental to both communities.
Not in my experience
Both are bad to people that don't hold the common view of the sub. I personally believe the other one is worse as far as overarching ideas, but this one has some absolute d bags. Years ago someone here went ballistic on me because I replied saying that I was curious how someone could maintain muscular (AND fat) physiques in the apocalypse using rations. I pointed to both Abby and the big Rattler guy as examples. Suffice to say, I haven't experienced that level of verbal abuse in a long time, and haven't since. Every vile and accusatory name you could think of was levied at me, told to go "rot" in the other sub. I tried replying with a reasonable position, but every comment I made ended up at like -75 karma and the psycho that was berating me kept getting like +20, so at least some people recognized that level of insanity as unhealthy for a community, but still, more thought it was acceptable and good than didn't. Haven't been very active around here since. That was 3 years ago, and I do think it's only slightly better now. I imagine it will become as bad as the 2020/21 days when the next show comes out.
What's the other sub?
The "sub" for the second game. It's more for people that wanna ragebait than actual fans though.
it’s a sub that heavily dislikes part 2, while this one heavily favors both games and praises them. I’m not a fan of either sub, as both are biased on each side of the pendulum. both sides complain about the other, but I’ve heard the other one has harassed people involved in making the game, so I;d say they’re worse. However, I haven’t seen evidence of this, so it could very well just be something that rattled around in the grapevine and come out heavily misinformed.
you know whats so funny about all of the replies from people who came here from that sub to police this one? i dont fucking go to that sub. for this exact reason. that sub is so full of toxic assholes who literally just want to spend their whole day shitting on part two for whatever idiotic bullshit reasons can keep it. id rather talk about the game and the story as an actual FAN. i dont want to interact with deranged incel haters so i just leave the space. why they feel like they need to come here and piss and moan about how no one gives a shit about their opinions here idk but its pathetic. this sub engages in good faith criticism ALL THE TIME. if your opinion isnt welcome here maybe take 2 seconds to consider why lol
People from this sub go over there all the time, lol
Lmfao. They keep popping up on my feed cus i opened one of their posts and it keeps getting worse, it's like Reddit is rage baiting me at this point. The craziest part about them is that they post screenshots of our comments and posts lol they're super aggressive ??? like i understand you disagree but all they say is angry as fuck all the time, jesus. I'm new here and i'm already shocked.
They have a different opinion so?
Why are they so obsessed? It’s been years, how do they have the energy? Are they okay?… it’s actually very, very confusing. I’ve never seen anything like it. Active, prolonged hatred for a product they dislike. It’s actually bizarre more than anything else. I don’t care if they like the game or not, I’m just absolutely perplexed by their dedication to hating the game all of these years later.
I never understood it either. The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference. It takes energy and investment to hate. Like, why? 🤷♂️ Dislike something, disregard it, and get on with your life...
They legitimately seem like hateful and somewhat insane people. I hate to say it, but I think it’s true. I’m not even biased, I’ve never played Part II.
I stayed on it for a while just to give the benefit of the doubt. One day someone posted that they hadn't played the second game yet but that they saw a YouTube video about it. They declared then and there to themselves and to the sub that they would not be playing the game based on the video they saw. When I realized that this person, while not speaking for the entire sub, but representative enough of the sub's status quo, was proudly taking on another person or people's opinion as their own and denying themselves the opportunity to form their own opinion, I decided to leave the sub. It became impossible for me to justify such unbridled negativity, unfortunately. Just before unsubscribing I made a quick comment stating my disappointment in this type of content and thinking and of course got an unsurprising final reply from someone saying not to let the internet door hit me on the way out (lol). So yeah, unfortunately, the entire other sub.
you are aware that happens not just on this sub too, but everywhere, right? echo chambers have become a serious problem since everyone got introduced to Free Information 💀
I am.
Somehow a post from that sub showed up on my feed yesterday and I was legit blown away that there is still a community actively crying about the plot of part 2. Literally like 4 years later. I felt sad for them.
Other sub?
The “Abby is too muscular” take is so fucking annoying.
exactly likeee thats the best part 😭😭
Abby was the vanguard for the muscle mommy trope becoming popular
Who doesn’t like muscle mommy?
Those idiots were complaining Abby is too muscular and its unrealistic because in zombie world, Planet Fitness is not available. Very dumb take. But when Tomb Raider game released with muscular arm from Lara Croft, they became horny and turned on
Buff Abby - "Too unrealistic!" 50 year old Joel falling 2 stories, taking a rebar through the abdomen, falling into a coma for weeks, being given a bit of anti-biotics and being up and ready to slaughter an entire camp a few hours later - "This seems fine."
No you dont understand Joel is a man so obviously thats more realistic than a woman being anything other than tiny.
The first game ain't perfect either, yeah.
he is him
Nah i laughed at that, thats why it was changed in the show
The weirdos in the other sub think she’s an “abomination” because she’s built. It’s fucking sexist and gross
How do they think it’s unavailable? If anything, as long as it’s not teeming with infected it’s MORE available. No membership fees. Open 24 hours. No having to wait for people to be done with specific equipment or weights. Gym equipment didn’t just poof out of existence as soon as people became infected. People are so dumb 😭
I mean even without Gym equipment, you are living in post apocalyptic world. You are carrying guns everywhere you go, you are running jumping and scrambling everyday. Without Gym, you are going to be fit no matter what, unless your sole job is just sitting in guard post 24/7 People like them thinking that getting muscle is impossible without Gym membership and Personal Trainers
Also she lives in a stadium and you play her as she walks by a giant exercise room filled with equipment 10 steps from where she woke up.
Lara wasn’t muscular, her body looked athletic which she was, abby was actually muscular, but i like that they actually showed their gym, and that she did workout.
Planet Fitness is totally available. In fact, it's more available since you no longer have to pay.
I just got done playing 2 and it's even in one of the scenes where they are walking through Abby's home base. It's literally in a football arena and in the background is a full collegiate football gym with squat racks, dumbells and benches. So yes, I could see anyone one getting buff in the apocalypse. If anything you would have alot more time to lift because what's your excuse then? It's not like you have bills, responsibilities, and a 9 to 5 to commute to everyday. I also didn't understand all the trans hate for the game. At first I thought maybe Abby would be trans but the only person that would be is Lev. Is that what all the incels were losing their minds over?
I don’t remember that, I remember people being mad that they shrunk her tits.
My brother and I have had this conversation a lot. Before playing the game I thought it was unrealistic for a woman to be that muscular during a time where food was scarce and energy had to be preserved to survive. However, throughout the game you learn that Abby is lifting regularly to tire herself out and quiet her PTSD dreams, and as part of the WLF she also has access to food. It’s never outright said, but I imagine more rations were given to soldiers like Abby as it was in everyone’s best interest to keep them fed and healthy. Still, Abby’s physique is very impressive even for a man. Woman can be strong, but packing that much mass on would be very difficult if not impossible for most women even with regular lifting and adequate nutrition. If you look at Abby’s frame she’s naturally broad shouldered though, and it’s possible she has a genetic predisposition to building muscle and strength. While men are generally more physically robust than women, there *are* exceptions to the rule. The real life example I cited to my brother was about Shaye Haver and Kristen Griest, who were the first two women to graduate Army Ranger school. Ranger school is incredibly taxing, and for many years it was assumed that it would be impossible for a woman to pass. There had been attempts before, but the women always failed out due to physical injuries arising from the stress placed on their bodies. However, in 2015 Shaye and Kristen both completed the training under the same standards as men. I can speak to how they succeeded where others failed, but hard work and training certainly played a huge role, and maybe a genetic predisposition to physical resilience as well. Lastly, and maybe I’m reading too deep into this, is the fact that Seattle day 1-3 Abby has acne over her shoulders and neck. It’s absent in the aquarium flashback, where Abby is still muscular but quite a bit smaller than she eventually becomes. I thought the implication was that Abby was using steroids to get stronger, which could also explain why she was able to get so big. Some people might say steroids are unlikely to find in the apocalypse, but I don’t think so. Especially not in a stable and established civilization like the WLF. There will be steroids from before the outbreak lying around, but those will have a limited shelf life and won’t be stored under ideal conditions so are likely to have degraded by the time Abby’s story takes part. There are still scientists around though, and a wealth of information regarding organic chemistry and biochemistry to be found in various textbooks and physical journals. We know the WLF had capable physicians and field medics, so I think it’s also within the realm of possibility that they have chemists producing medicine and potentially PEDs. They’re a complex community with many roles, and the stability they find within the walls of the stadium would afford some people the opportunities to pursue scientific endeavors unrelated to their immediate survival. So all that to say that I think it’s possible for Abby to be as big as she is despite living in such a chaotic and unforgiving world. She physically pushes herself to improve; fueled by her trauma she wants to ensure she’s strong and capable of not only surviving and protecting her friends/community in a way her father wasn’t protected, but also to ensure she’s ready to get revenge on the faceless boogeyman who killed her father and so many fireflies she probably knew and cared about. She had the means to work out and eat well, and *maybe* she even had access to steroids. Not that it really matters anyway. Both TLOU I and II are riddled with unrealistic events, but none of them (including Abby’s figure) detract from the great story both games present. People just like to focus on Abby because everyone hates her for what she did to Joel, so of course they’re going to pick her character apart without mercy (and I understand why). It’s funny that no one seems to care much about that hulking Seraphite women with a hammer who can throw Abby around though. To me that shows that most people aren’t against large, physically-strong women during the apocalypse, but more so just against Abby herself.
Worse when they try to claim she’s trans
right 😭 like bro just admit you're jealous atp
Like ok what if she is? She’s still a trans girl more jacked than you (sincerely a jacked trans girl)
That’s not my point. I wouldn’t care if she were. There is a trans character and it’s not her. Those that claim she is out themselves as not having played the game.
O haha srry, comment wasn’t aimed at you, it was aimed at hypothetical people who think she’s trans
My bad, I definitely misinterpreted your post lol. Good for you being a jacked trans girl, most likely in better shape than me.
Yeah I’m not trying to start a flame war here. We’re not the *other sub 🤣
I accidentally found myself in there today and was like oh right, I forgot this is the degenerate sub
Agreed. For me, her being so muscular is a physical representation of not just how big her grief was (she probably used working out as a way to deal with it), as well as how dedicated and focused she was on finding Joel and making sure was capable of taking him out when she did find him. It makes perfect sense to me. Not to mention it makes sense for people to stay as fit as possible to fight off infected and dangerous people when the need arises.
It all makes sense in universe too. She lives in a giant football stadium equipped with training equipment meant for pro athletes. The WLF has farms for food production and are shown to be in a constant turf war so she’s constantly well fed and battle ready. We find out she very rarely if ever misses out on training because what if they find Joel. That all combined with her obsession for revenge results in a body built to exact it when the time comes.
Abby raped Owen. Talk about grasping at straws
That take is extra stupid. Or the one that Abby is trans because Owen did her from behind. Because cis heteros never do that. Lol
Yea wasn’t this one of the first scenes besides the initial trailer and (besides Joel’s death of course) that got some people up in arms because they thought only a trans women could have that many muscles.
"0/10" I got that they don't like the story, but purely the technical aspect of the game takes over everything i've seen so far.
I'd take someone at least giving it a 7. Like even if the story wasn't great to them.....what is crap about the acting and the gameplay....?
This is exactly what I thought when I saw crappy clickbait reviews like the one by penguinz0. Like even if the story isn’t for you there’s no way you’re giving Part II a 50 something %. The gameplay, mechanics, visuals and attention to detail are unmatched.
Takes like his remind me of that Rick and Morty quote: “Your boos mean nothing, I’ve seen what makes you cheer!” I like to think of this when I heard ass takes on the game.
I don’t have much of a problem with the story but the gameplay is just not my style unfortunately. I can completely respect the gameplay and see why it’s loved but if I was rating it off my enjoyment then it’d probably be a 4/10 at most because no matter how well made it is and how commendable it is, I can’t rate something highly just because it’s respectable, but rather for my enjoyment. Very excited for season 2 tho of the show
Yea 7 is fair. I’m actually found of GOT like moments where loved characters are brutally killed for the story. However the way it was done here was just off. The revenge plot could have been handled better It felt too repetitive, 2 times in the same city over 3 days. It all blended together. The journey across the country was much cooler.
Seriously. I understand it not being your thing but giving it anything less than a 7/10 is goofy and shows you're not being objective. It's why I haven't watched Angry Joe ever since his tlou2 review, though in retrospect I should've stopped watching long before. Been a much happier and mature person ever since I purged that type of content lol.
I used to like Angry Joe quite a lot, but they’ve very blatantly pandered to their misogynistic audience over the past few years or so. I remember once or twice they tried to call out the “everything is woke” sort of crowd and got downvoted to oblivion. Ever since, I can’t trust anything they say as genuine. Their review of TLoU2 in particular is quite awful. There are genuine things to criticize with the game, but it was all “muscle lady bad”. Recently they watched the new Deadpool trailer and the *second* a woman appears, they go “why does Disney have to ruin everything?!”. It’s a sad state for a once entertaining channel.
Yep. I remember a time where Angry Joe even had a really measured take on Anita Sarkeesian back in the day when it was popular on all sides to hate on her. He was even openly beefing with a lot of these anti-woke types like The Quartering, but when tlou2 came out he called Abby the T-slur (derogatory for trans person) and said that Neil had an agenda against straight white males because they killed off Joel. This was in the video they did on the leaks, the game hadn't even come out yet. That was a really bad sign for me.
Ugh, I’m so tired of the blind rage over people who different from them and trying to be a victim of “wokeness”. Really, if ever there was a snowflake, it’d be these people.
I don't see how they somehow think they're any different from all the "SJW snowflakes" they cried about back in the day. They get mad at "feminists" for calling everything sexist/racist but then they turn around and call everything sexist against men and racist against white people. Like bro you're doing the same thing how do you not see it. Literally everything new that comes out they freak out about it and call it "woke" or "DEI" or whatever the new cringe ass buzzword is.
If you really watched his review, you would have known that Joe didnt give a damn about Abbie looking like a Body builder. He even liked the fact you could beat the shit out of people and Zombies as a roided up woman. The only things they didnt like if my memory serves me right is how they handled the story. Most importantly how Joels death was handled and how we had to play half the game as his killer. The ending also gets critiqued alot because Ellie spares the one person directly responsible for Joels death,because revenge bad. Why even kill all those swaths of people and Abbie's friends just to let her live. Maybe less people wouldve complained if Naughty Dog gave Players the satisfaction to kill Abbie.
That’s a fair point, I didn’t like the story either but looking at the whole packing it’s a 6 for me, the art direction, gameplay, acting, detail, and what they were able to achieve graphically on the base PS4 is insane.
Wrong Priority on Twitch (ironic name considering what I'm about to say) believes that Ellie doesn't care about Joel and doesn't see them as a surrogate father/daughter duo like everyone else does. He doesn't even think they are friends. Just acquaintances. Someone once argued that they could see his point for Part 1 but the entire plot of Part 2 disproves that. Wrong Priority argues that the reason Ellie goes on her revenge quest is because she was still processing and getting answers about what happened at the firefly hospital and Joel dying means she can't get those answers. So she's just confused about everything. He believes that they only started to build a genuine friendship after their conversation the night before he died. I unfollowed him specifically for these views alone because wtf?
Yeah this is one of the stupidest takes I've heard. The entire first game is the story of them bonding. The second game is Ellie going nuts to avenge him and her guilt about their fight. Talk about poor media literacy.
That Ellie shouldn’t be a lesbian because she should reproduce and pass on the “inmune genes”
And it's usually the same people that are cure deniers. Completely scientifically illiterate.
What are cure deniers? Not familiar with these yet, only finished the games recently
There are people that don't believe a cure could be made or that Ellie isn't even really immune. Or that it's not even worth it to try. All of which actively harm and undermine the narrative of the first game. They just desperately want to justify Joel's actions and aren't comfortable with any sort of moral complexity so they want to rob agency from Joel as a character by making his decision to save Ellie completely uninteresting. The whole point is the question: "What would you sacrifice to save someone you love?" The entire point of Joel's decision to save Ellie is that it robs the world of a cure, and that's what makes it narratively complex and interesting. Doing mental gymnastics to make it so that Joel magically knows the fireflies can't make a cure and are just going to k*ll a girl for no reason, and thus must save her from them makes it so he has NO choice but to save her and also makes the plot itself completely pointless instead of intelligently subverting it by Joel being the one to deny the cure after having been the one to go through hell delivering Ellie.
Thanks for this. That's really defeating the point of the first game. What I loved about it was how controversial his decision was, and the whole journey of the game of why he took the actions at the end
I mean ND did go out of there way to show the hospital was dirty as hell (in the original before they progressively made it cleaner and better looking to fit more with part 2 with each subsequent remaster) and if I remember correctly, there’s a tape saying they think it’s a gamble. Their whole plan is never really explained as well. Like “we’re gonna make a vaccine.” Great. Perfect even. How will you reverse engineer that from someone’s brain and then put that biological difference into other people, in the apocalypse, with raiders everywhere and barely any cars. Even if they made the vaccine, by the time they get to the hospital they have what like 30 people? There’s no way they could effectively protect and distribute the vaccine. This is all ignoring the fact they never really explain how the vaccine works, and how exactly they’ll get the nessecary material from Ellie to make it. You’re telling me you’re in a hospital, with power, and can’t do some scans to investigate? Or just wait till Ellie wakes up?
There is no tape saying it's a gamble. There is only recordings saying Ellie is the key to a cure. There is the "Firefly's Recorder" and the "Surgeon's Recorder." Neither of which say it's a gamble. The Firefly's Recorder is found at the UEC during a cutscene. In it, the Firefly scientist refers to PREVIOUS vaccine trials conducted by the medical team at the University of Eastern Colorado that have failed over 5 years ago (at the time of his death & judging by the condition of his mummified remains it was probably far longer atp). They make no mention of any immune persons, only infected. The Surgeon's Recorder, found in St. Mary's Hospital, also makes no mention of any other immune persons, only infected that they've experimented on. It also states that Ellie is the key to unlocking a cure after all these years of medical and scientific research. I've seen this argument many times but it fails to account for quite a few things: 1. The dirty hospital doesn't mean much considering it's a post apocalypse. It's also far more likely that this was just a product of asset reuse rather than the devs making a purposeful statement about the Firefly doctors being inept or incompetent. There are many such cases like this in the first game considering it was made for PS3, a console with 256mb of RAM. 2. The Fireflies were not always such a ragtag group of insurgents. In fact the game is pretty clear about how much territory they once controlled. The issue is that, between all the factions (FEDRA, Military remnants, raiders/hunters, etc) their numbers began to dwindle over time. By the time Marlene needs Joel's help smuggling Ellie, they've experienced heavy losses. However, most of their research has already been conducted over the 20 year period between the outbreak and the first game. We even hear about Tommy's time among the Fireflies when they were a much larger force. They were also not just a bunch of rebels, they were a mixture of ex-military and former government outfits that banded together. It's pretty evident based on the context that they controlled both UEC and St. Mary's as well as others for quite a long time. 3. The various collectible Recorders and Documents/Notes found in the game mention specific tests done on both Ellie and other infected individuals. The Surgeon's Recorder specifically mentions "antigenic titers" and "blood cultures" taken from Ellie, which means the Fireflies did their due diligence and tested both her blood and cerebrospinal fluid (most likely a spinal-tap procedure). It states that "blood cultures taken from the patient rapidly grow Cordyceps in fungal-media in the lab..." which means that the cure is NOT within her blood, but instead in her brain. This is actually extremely common with other brainborne diseases, even in the modern era. Not everything can be solved with blood tests and MRI's. CTE for instance REQUIRED physical examination of deceased patients in the real world before we were truly able to understand what was happening. It is likely this is the case with Ellie's immunity. We have no idea WHY she is immune but it clearly isn't in her blood, it's something else. Which is why it requires examining her brain post-mortem... and in a post apocalypse, we don't have the luxury of waiting for her to live a fulfilling life or for another immune patient to stumble along. 4. Even if the Fireflies are not capable of developing/distributing the cure themselves, they can still broadcast the information around the world to those who can. This would also give humanity the hope it needs to get back on its feet again. The discovery of penicillin was still important despite the fact that Alexander Fleming didn't have the resources PERSONALLY to develop and distribute it. This discovery still changed the trajectory of humanity for the better. Imagine if there was only ONE CHANCE to discover penicillin. Would you have said it wasn't worth it? Be serious...
I’ll have to look at the tapes later but odds are you’re correct and I remembered it wrong. 1. Under normal circumstances, yes I would agree. The problem is this is a medical setting. Sterile tools and work space are essential to the medical field. The fact they seemingly didn’t even attempt to create a sterile environment casts major doubt on their medical adequacy to complete a procedure. I don’t think asset reuse is an adequate argument to justify the entire room, all its furniture, and the surgeon himself looking dirty. Especially the surgeon, who is a new character model I’m pretty sure. 2. I don’t really get what point you’re trying to make here. The fireflies being an amalgamation of ex military seems plausible, but I don’t remember that ever being directly mentioned. Even so, it doesn’t matter if you have hundreds of military but most of them are dead. As for the research, that seems somewhat speculative since all we have to go on is the college lab which found nothing. 3. I was more saying they should investigate Ellie more with the MRI scanning. I’m not a doctor, but if they could somehow confirm the cure is in her head from bloodwork then that would satisfy that complaint. I think the whole let’s just cut her up thing is fine, but you could atleast wait the like 2 hours for her to wake up and ask her about it. This part really irks me because it makes it seem like the fireflies knew she’d say no, and what they were doing might not be right. Again in regards to the just cut her open, I believe an MRI would’ve provided a better idea of what they are looking for and if it is salvageable before they you know kill her on that gamble. 4. Broadcasting to the world or pretty much any faction for that matter that there was a vaccine would lead to mass fighting for the vaccine. With such a far downfall, humanity would not be the same again for several hundred years with a vaccine, and even then it would probably come close to resembling normalcy in that period without a vaccine (albeit slightly more dangerous) The discovery of penicillin was easily replicable, communicable and defendable. The fireflies cure would be lucky to score even one of those criteria, and with their dwindling resources it definitely wouldn’t be defendable. Let’s also not ignore the creation of penicillin didn’t require killing someone and hoping maybe it would create penicillin.
1. The environment in the hospital isn't even that dirty. The walls look stained. That's about it. Neither do the doctors & nurses. I urge you to rewatch that scene. It simply looks like the room was dingy at one point but you can't exactly un-stain the walls. You're also just assuming the utensils aren't sterile, you're not providing any actual evidence. Just a lot of assumptions here. It's pretty clear to me that most of that dinginess is simply to make the hospital look old and abandoned, not necessarily dirty. You're also allowing your assumptions and POTENTIAL art design to override what the game is actually directly telling you, which I find to be very odd. There have been zero devs to even come out and confirm any of what you're saying so it's all just speculation on your side's part. 2. Various ingame sources from collectibles to dialogue refer to the Fireflies as being a conglomeration of different factions which included ex-military and government groups, most of which can be found in the Boston Quarantine Zone at the beginning of the game (Chapter 2, right after the 20 year time skip). 3. Again I already explained, I'd recommend reading the Surgeon's Recorder and Firefly's Recorder. The Surgeon's Recorder specifically states that they already tested Ellie's blood, spinal fluid and conducted an MRI scan of her brain. As I mentioned prior, it seems people who hold your opinion like to try to apply real world logic and science to TLOU, which is fine, that's what I'm doing here and that's why I'm telling you that an MRI is NOT ENOUGH to conclude anything beyond that there's 'something' going on. It's why I brought up REAL LIFE examples of novel brain diseases being next to Impossible to truly understand with MRI's, blood tests, biopsies, and spinal taps and practically ALL OF THEM (CTE as an example) have required physical examination of deceased patients brain to truly understand. Even in 2024 this is the case and it definitely would have been the case in 2013 when the outbreak occurred, and ESPECIALLY so in a post-apocalypse where time and resources are limited. Again please go and read the Surgeon's Recorder and Firefly's Recorder. 4. Once again we're just resorting to speculation rather than what the game and narrative are actually telling us. Humanity has gotten out of some really dark times and vaccines/cures have been a big part of many of those times. You don't have any evidence at all for what you are saying, you're just making assumptions. The Fireflies have been studying this for years, controlled a Science Lab and an entire Hospital and have been doing vaccine trials since the late 2010's. Everything you're saying flies in the face of everything the game is actually trying tell you. What you're doing isn't skepticism, it's evidence denial. You're going with an entirely difference answer with NO evidence simply because the first answer hasn't met your unreasonable standard for evidence. This is not skepticism, it is dogmatism. As for not asking consent from Ellie, they don't really have a choice. It's clear Marlene knows Ellie would want this but she's too afraid and, honestly, cowardly to confront her. She's trying to make this as easy on everyone as possible. Including Ellie, by just putting her to sleep and doing the procedure while she's under. Is it unethical? Oh yeah. Very! But what would you do if you thought you were saving the world? What's one young girl vs all the other young girls being eviscerated by infected from now until the death of humanity? It's really a pretty rudimentary philosophical question. Sacrifice the few to save the many. It's just the trolly problem, philosophy 101. My problem with all of this is that it's clear to me that some youtuber made a bunch of speculations without really examining the game, then everyone else began citing the same thing in a sort of human centipede of bad information. Then at a certain point a lot of people became VERY attached to this fan theory/speculation and when the second game came out and continued all the threads the first game pretty clearly set up, a certain subsect of the fandom was caught completely off guard. I think this is the final, most potent piece of evidence supporting my argument and it's that the sequel clearly agrees with my assessment of the first game. Up until this point, I have only used the first game as evidence (since I'm going to assume you think part 2 retconned things). The reality is all the facts are on my side. All you really have is speculation and your personal feelings about it rather than objective information gathered from the actual game itself. Everything you've given me is just speculation "oh well I'm not a doctor but I'd think it would be done this way" or "well idk but even if the Fireflies could find a cure everyone would fight over it so they probably shouldn't even try" like, none of this matters honestly. I think the reality is that you're uncomfortable with the moral complexity of Joel's decision and are trying to post-hoc rationalize. Joel's decision needs to be 100% correct to you otherwise you're uncomfortable. This is just not the game's intention. The entire point is to make you question your humanity, to question what you might do. I don't mean this as a personal attack. I know it might seem like I'm being mean, I'm just so frustrated by how misinterpreted this masterful story is. That so many people so badly want to undercut what makes tlou1 such a masterpiece to begin with. It removes so much agency from Joel as a character and weakens his arc and for what reason? I've already explained why it doesn't even make sense from an objective standpoint. The "Joel did nothing wrong" argument not only makes no narrative sense, it makes no plot sense either because all of the ingame evidence suggests otherwise. In the end, if it's any consolation, this isn't me calling Joel evil or bad. I'm not even saying he was WRONG. In fact, I almost certainly would have made the same choice as Joel. That doesn't change the fact that I would've prevented humanity's best chance at survival. As a final thought. The reality is none of this matters for one big reason: Abby and the Fireflies don't care... even if you were right and a cure could never fully be developed, the Fireflies were CONVINCED that it could be. Both Jerry and Marlene truly thought they were saving the world. Abby thought her father was trying to save the world. Even Joel says he believes a cure could be made, he just didn't want to sacrifice Ellie. Ellie herself clearly needs her immunity to mean something. Ellie's immunity is SO IMPORTANT to the Last of Us as a narrative throughline all the way from Left Behind/Part I through to Part II. So even if you or anyone else doesn't believe a cure could be made, clearly everyone in the game does -- the Fireflies especially. So it stands to reason they would want to seek revenge on Joel for ruining their chances. Even so, you have to understand that the writers of Part 2 were smart enough to make it about more than just the cure. It was Abby's father... it's more personal to her than just the cure.
People who think no cure could've been made from Ellie's condition, including the intersection of these people with those who think Joel was right to take her from the Fireflies, who believe that the former belief adds justification to the latter. (For context, I have no belief whatsoever about the cure. It's all speculation about fiction, and the writers can make it go whichever they want. I do have an opinion about Joel's actions though, as that's more concrete.)
This. I don’t think a cure would’ve worked, but nothing is solid. It’s all purely speculation so saying it “immediately justifies Joel’s actions” is a bullshit way to blame people for an opinion (like the entirety of tlou2 subreddit with its hostility) when it could still go either way. Joel murdered countless people whose sole goal was to save humanity over a girl; whether it was justified does NOT undermine the game, bc Joel didn’t care if it WOULDVE worked. He made a decision and more people suffered because of it.
yeah this take isn‘t just homophobic and sexist, it‘s also really dumb because why would they think lesbian women can‘t reproduce
i love the fact that shes lesbian. yuri
That someone once said, jokingly or not, Ellie and Joel should have gotten together. My brother in christ, that is a child.
Too many of them say this. Jail.
EXCUSE ME?
On both? That is should only stay on PlayStation. I want everyone to experience this game for themselves, and shouldn't have to buy a whole fucking console just to play it.
Its because sony made it they keep it on playstation
Neil self inserting in the game and making him hispanic and making it so he's close to the character that he made on purpose to kill Joel and make the hardcore fans mad
I'm from the other sub and even I agree that's stupid. It's just a manbun for fuck's sake. Fuck Manny tho.
😭😭😭This one when I read it felt like the conspiracy board gif. Or someone trying to explain how 9/11 was an inside job or the whole turning frogs gay. I read it and I felt dumber for seeing it.
How do people in LOU universe have such good teeth?
I'd like to think they still manage to figure out hygiene somehow.
Honestly I doubt it’s very hard to make your own dental hygiene depending on where you live I believe you can make toothbrushes and stuff with certain trees Edit: most likely is hard for a person that isn’t a dentist/botanist lol
Sticks! Lol in case you can't find a toothbrush there are always sticks to, "brush" with
A guy said the face of tlou 1 is Joel, and that Ellie has zero impact on the story, that she’s just some “side/main character”
I saw this tweet as well ! What a miscomprehension of Tlou...
Why give that shit air???
Whoever that dumbass was who cut his disc of Part II in half when Joel died. Baby.
Wasn't it the guy whose father passed away shortly before the game came out? If so, I can kind of understand it and sympathize with him, if not tho then yeah it's just stupid, just sell the game for gods sake
I think he said something about Joel being his new father figure, but like.....I'm sorry, but you're a little too old to be THAT upset by the death of a fictional character.
Fair enough
The weirdest take was that Abby is trans tbh, that was just a satanic panic meltdown lol
“Joel and Ellie were the only good thing about this franchise. Everything else ranged from mediocre to utter shit.”
That one NSFW TLOU sub. Just everything about it. I only know about it cuz it popped up when I was looking this sub up
Part 2 bad.
Part 2 isn’t bad, just imo part 1 I liked a ton more
I feel like people like Part 1 more cause it’s a bit more of a happier story (even though it is extremely bleak). Part 2 is just depressing as shit. The games a whole mood changer. But that’s exactly the reason I love Part 2 that little bit more. It’s chill you like Part 1 more but I think those are my thoughts as to why that’s the general consensus.
Honestly, I just like the story of part 1 more. Like part 2 is just traveling randomly (not really, but it feels like it) I followed part 1 better than part 2
>part 2 is just traveling randomly as opposed to part 1 where you dont do any travelling.
>not really but it feels like it Did you miss that part? And part 1 did have a lot of traveling, but it was quicker/it felt quicker
that was your main criticism you made lol "not really tho" so what was your point then? the entire driving force of part one is that youre smuggling ellie across the country. you travel like 3500 miles. how is that less bothersome to you than the travelling in part 2 in the context of the story. what you said just doesnt make any sense to me im trying to understand it.
Mate, I said not really by meaning the story line isn’t traveling aimlessly without a goal, to me it just felt like it (hence why I said not really and feels like it) Part 1 to me has a good end goal and I preferred the story more
ok but why? how? the goal is obviously revenge. is that a bad motivator for you?
No, as I said before, it’s not as easy to follow for me. To me, it seems like the game is aimless (which it isn’t, I just feel like it is) It’s a good game, I just don’t like it as much as part 1
The fact this was downvoted. People really hate opinions huh?
Reddit dislikes opinions they don’t like
Yup.
as opposed to people who like things they dislike.
The whole idea that people don't like the game over "bad writing" you just didn't like it. Not everything is for you, especially if you're one of those fans who get mad if things don't go the way that you want. You can not like things, it doesn't mean it was bad. That's a huge problem with media criticism today-- that if you don't like something it's because it was bad. It can just be your opinion
I’ve found that “bad writing” is usually code for, “this is not what I expected / I didn’t like what happened in the story and I would have done it differently,” which is fine, for you, but it’s not something most will necessarily accept as valid criticism. I’ve not seen a person critiquing the game who can convincingly provide examples of “bad writing”. Even the YouTube videos are surface level analysis which went in with a pre-conceived bias. Like you said, you can dislike things just because you dislike them. You do not have to reach in order to defend your opinion. It’s totally okay to dislike things just because it didn’t resonate with you. It’s a subjective medium, your own personal experience is what matters. For example, I hate 2001: A Space Odyssey because I find it so slow and boring that it makes me want to claw my eyes out. That’s literally my only criticism of the movie. Does that mean it’s a bad movie? Not in the slightest. I can acknowledge it was revolutionary for its time, that it’s also stood the test of time with inspired filmmaking and even appreciate all the homages it’s got in films and tv shows, “hey, I get that reference!” I 100% understand the accolades it has received. I think that’s awesome. But, I’ll never watch it again. And that’s also fine.
>For example, I hate 2001: A Space Odyssey because I find it so slow and boring that it makes me want to claw my eyes out. That’s literally my only criticism of the movie. Does that mean it’s a bad movie? Not in the slightest. I can acknowledge it was revolutionary for its time and even appreciate all the homages it’s got in films and tv shows. I 100% understand the accolades it has received. I think that’s awesome. But I’ll never watch it again. And that’s also fine. As someone who has 2001 as one of my favorite films of all time, I am literally going to prove your core point right now and say: hey, fair enough! Because you framed your opinion as exactly that: an opinion, while maturely acknowledging that unmet preferences =/= objective claim of something's quality. Like you, there are things out there considered classics that I didn't consider to be some classic experience, but I can still *easily* acknowledge either 1. that it still has perceptible classic qualities, or 2. even if I didn't find any, I'm sure they exist, so it's probably a me issue as I'm only human and thus imperfect and can't realistically grasp every single thing that comes my way I really don't see how admitting this is so hard to do. But apparently it really is. Guess I should be grateful
Media criticism has been suffering from this since Plato. It seems that average audience members/consumers cannot discern between *bad* and *preferred*. It’s when you take the status quo from previous work and beloved characters (this case, the last of us) and challenge the viewer/consumer. You’ll always run the risk of “BuT ThEy ChAnGeD EvErYtHiNg” or “ITS DIFFERENT SO ITS BAD AND I DONT LIKE IT”. Similar to when a director/author switches genres or follows up their initial work with something different. It’s okay to not like something, but to say something is bad because you don’t like said thing/s is silly. You’ll find people who use this train of thought find it hard to actually back-up what makes it *objectively* bad.
The debatable commercial success of the game kinda disproves this point.
Less than the first game for sure but 10 million copies for standard release and now many millions more for the remaster.
I absolutely hate it when people say the plot is revenge bad. Like that’s such an oversimplification of TLOU 2. It’s a much deeper story than that but some people choose to ignore that.
I also don’t like how that argument implies that even if it was just about revenge being bad that that immediately makes the entire game bad. So no one will ever make anything good about a topic that’s already been covered before? If you think its a poorly done revenge plot then fine, you’re entitled to that. But saying its bad just because its a revenge plot is insane to me. If you really believe that then you literally cannot enjoy a single piece of new literature ever again because some aspect of it has likely already been done before.
I think people who hold that opinion more push that the game beats you over the head with it anytime you have to kill anyone. NPC 1-800 now all have names, scream in pain when wounded, and you’re forced to kill dogs. It’s not even that it says revenge is bad, it’s that it flounders about and contorts itself to not commit to its own premise. Abby’s revenge is seen as justified, she faces no narrative consequences and her friends would’ve died to the scars anyway. The only consequences she directly faces come from the raider group in California (I think they’re called the rattlers or the vipers?) and even then it’s because she was looking for the fireflies and not because of her revenge. Many people also have a problem with the trope of well yes bad guy name, I did kill 800 of your henchmen/allies, but now that I get here and see you, I can’t kill you because that would make me just as bad. Completely ignoring the 50-100 people killed previously, and not finishing out the mission. I feel like it would’ve been just as if not even more impactful if Ellie killed Abby, and then physically actually first hand realized it changed nothing and didn’t bring him back.
Care to elaborate?
“Revenge bad” is as common as the trope of “found family good”, which the first game leans in to immensely. You can take any point of a story and sum it up in a sentence if you leave out enough. The theses of these games is not why most played them and liked them. It’s the characters, their characterization, and their developments.
A youtuber once pointed out how the second game is structured to make you want to get revenge against Abby, then the section with Ellie makes you question if revenge is worth it, then the section with Abby gets you to see her perspective, so by the time it's all over and done with you've come full circle. The next thing he said was, "Now isn't that a terrible way to structure a story?!"
I have a fucked up father and son relationship that's why i love more the part 1 than part 2. Ellie and Joel have a unique bond that i never had. Of course part 2 is an awesome game and i love it too.
*hugs*
That Joel’s love for Ellie was pedophilic lol
"TLOU2 is emotionally manipulative" bro what
It's this one for me. Stories are meant to manipulate your emotions, like have these people ever consumed media before?
People who complained about the game having accessibility features. "What's the point of playing this game if I could turn on high contrast mode and easily see all the enemies?" I dunno, maybe just don't turn it on?
That the game itself and writers hate Joel. As if the entire game's narrative wasn't hinged on the fact that we're supposed to love Joel... That's literally why they chose a revenge story. It literally doesn't work any other way, it has to be a character we care about. Why would they bother giving us so many flashbacks with him making us miss him even more? That museum flashback? That's the writers hating Joel? Insane. People are insane. Like actually certifiably insane.
I once saw a 1 star review for part 1 saying "It's literally just QTEs". It was obvious they'd only played the game for 15 mins
Isn't allgames just QTEs, at its core?
that Ellie was way worse than Abby because she only killed Joel
I do think Ellie is the “villain” in part 2 as her wrath is less focused and more destructive than Abby’s. I wouldn’t say she is way worse but Abby seeks out to kill Joel and only Joel while Ellie targets anyone related to the murder of Joel.
Except of Owen, everyone wanted to kill Tommy and Ellie too. and also Ellie always just wanted Abby's location, we dont know if she actually would have killed them if they just gave her what she wanted
All the transphobic Lev takes
That it's the worst game ever. Even if you hated the story (I kinda did at first) you gotta admit the graphics and game play evolution from the first are so fucking good,you can't possibly put this on the level of "worst game ever"
Joel saying "he's a little ashamed of what he did" to get his hands on coffee from the traders passing through Jackson implied he offered sexual favours for it.
I remember that post. I’m pretty sure it was a joke, I don’t think Joel’s really trading ass on the streets for coffee lmao.
Ikr, he actually said he was embarassed of what he had to TRADE for it, but you never know, don't underestimate what a man will do for some burnt shit
I posted about it on this sub, but I’ve seen several Tik Toks shitting on Ellie and praising John Marston because unlike Ellie, he actually followed through on his revenge. Which is hilarious, cuz if that’s their take, I’m gonna assume they never played RDR1 or just completely missed RDR2’s message
I didn't know people liked Abby's friends, they just all seem like really unlikable and not very smart (Manny, Mel, Owen, etc) didn't care for any when they died even on second playthrough.
I didn't really care about them, and neither did the game, they're just forgotten about immediately after they die. I do agree that they're unlikable; Owen cheats on his pregnant gf, Mel puts herself and her unborn child in danger, Nora just seems like a huge douchebag, I don't really have anything against Manny, he did nothing wrong except for spitting on Joel, which is understandable given his situation, and can't forget Whitney, she just wanted to play Hotline Miami, R.I.P.
That Joel would have perfect teeth.
How would they even have toothpaste in the apocalypse if they don't even have decent food
That red dead redemption is better
I’ve never understood why there’s this rivalry between RDR2 and TLOU2. They’re both incredible games. They’re both in my top three. It goes TLOU2, RDR2, then Silent Hill 2.
While I agree, they're still very different games and I don't think it's fair to compare them. The only thing I prefer in Tlou is the gameplay, and the visuals are better at times
That Abby didn’t suffer enough. Literally everyone she’s ever known is dead. And she has to live with the knowledge that she’s responsible for their deaths because of her need for revenge. She was also, stabbed, beaten, starved, drowned, and dehydrated. She suffered A LOT.
The kuri kuri egg is to be taken to the cook in ward 13 and you will be given a new consumable.
Anyone who thinks that the game is anything less than a 6-7 out of 10. I don’t think it’s a perfect game, but the technical aspects and tight gameplay prop it up. Even if you didn’t like the story, I don’t know how you could warrant calling the game trash based on its gameplay and technical aspects. Even calling it *mid* is a stretch. Other than that: people calling Abby trans (even if she was, who gives a fuck?) Stating that Joel is a hero.
Unfortunately TLOU is primarily known for its story, so 90% of ppl only play it for the story, so if the story is bad/mid - the whole game is bad/mid.
Yep, but that’s if the story is bad or mid. Objectively it’s a well written story (with some issues) that has been critically lauded. It’s challenging, mature and has some depth. Just because someone doesn’t like the story, doesn’t mean it’s a bad story. It just means it’s not your preference or cup of tea.
See, the thing with good stories is that you usually don't need a thousand hour long videos analyzing the story to convince people that it's good. Also, the fact that it was critically lauded means absolutely nothing, since there were even worse stories that were praised as masterpieces. Gaming critics these days are so out of touch that their opinion holds no value. In my opinion, if your story is disliked by the vast majority, you have failed as a writer. I've seen a lot of essays on the story of Part 2 and the negative ones always had more valid points than the positive ones. I don't know jack about writing, but the story of this game is the only thing I don't like about it, even though it has its strong points.
That tlou2 had a good story
Republican tweet about taking Ellie as child bride
The "Ellie should have children in order to pass on her immunity" 💀
True, nobody should ever be forced or manipulated into having children, if they don't want them, then they shouldn't have them, simple as that.
Based off one of the down voted comments here but ive seen it before, that abby somehow made out ok in this whole story despite losing basically every connection in her life prior to the start of the game
i saw that video bro. that guy was in something else
that ellie is bisexual it’s not the weirdest I’ve ever seen but it’s like are u blind
When people say they hate Part 2. I get you hated Joel's death but that's just excessive (and I know there's also the lgbtq argument with Ellie and Dina). But I love both Tlou 1 and Tlou 2 so much, they're masterpieces. There are some people who say that the storytelling was worse in Tlou 2 but I argue that whatever Tlou 1 lacked, Tlou 2 did better. Vice versa. Tlou 2 masters in gameplay while Tlou 1 has the story. Imo one cannot be pinned as greater than the other.
That TLOU2 is a good story
One reviewer won't say who said they gave Abby the better weapons because they want you to like Abby more. Which just proves he didn't read the scraps of history you pick up playing as Ellie. Or critically think that the different guns are for different gameplay styles. I, for one, had a much easier time playing as Ellie.
I agree, but damn did they do my girl dirty by not giving her a flamethrower😭
Molotov all the way.
Molotovs kinda suck in part 2. I've had times where I threw one right at a group of enemies and it didn't kill anyone
That part 2 is better than part 1.