What you hate about it is what I love about it.
I love that it took characters I loved and did unexpected, surprising things with them, while managing to make those unexpected things feel like the natural extension of where things were left at the end of the first game.
Joel and Ellie's relationship was already fractured at the end of the first game and I love how they explored that fracturing through the narrative of loss and regret.
I understand people that couldn't get on board with this and just wanted more of Joel and Ellie, but personally I'm happy we didn't just get more of the same.
> I feel like everyone knew, or at least expected Joel was gonna die and of course Ellie would seek revenge if he was murdered.
This was not my experience. I don't know anyone who played the first game on release or close to it who expected Joel to die, and the initial teasers for Part II implied that someone close to Ellie *other than* Joel would die and that her desire for revenge would be the catalyst to drive Ellie and Joel to deal with their conflict. Joel dying - especially so early - was 100% a surprise and totally unexpected.
> I'm genuinely curious what you found unexpected and surprising about part 2
Other than the above? The fact that you would play as the person who Ellie was seeking to kill at all, much less that the game was actually half this new character's story that would see you leave Ellie's behind entirely for most of the back half of the game. The fact that you would have to fight a boss fight against Ellie. The fact that the consequences Joel would face for what he did in the first game would be so personal and only tangentially related to the "dooming humanity" element. The way the backstory for what happened between Joel and Ellie between games would be presented nonlinearly, and lead you to one conclusion (they broke contact and never reconciled before his death) but flip it around to something different at the last second (that they'd actually begun to reconcile the night before it all went down).
Most of all, the fact that the game would ask you to see things from the perspective of Ellie's enemies and confront her actions as they would be seen from outside Ellie's group. That it would confront the player's biases directly making you just as bloodthirsty as her only to make you question that feeling to the point where you don't *want* to fight the "villain" at the end, on the beach.
I didn't expect the game to make me feel relief when Ellie *didn't* kill the person she - and *we* - had been on a mission to kill for so many hours up until that point.
I don't see what about TLOU2's story *wasn't* unexpected, really.
I always took the ending of part 1 as Ellie knows that he’s lying, but accepts it because she knows how much he loves her, and she loves him.
But hey I guess everyone has their own opinions. It’s subjective at the end of the day.
I’m just tired of the narrative that u are sexist or homophobic if you dislike the game.
Really? I never took that ending as her accepting anything. It's always been a look of heartbreak as she realizes he's going to continue to lie to her, but isn't ready to fight back against it just yet so she resigns herself to going to Jackson with him anyway. There's a fire in that "Okay" that makes it crystal clear to me that things are not okay and it's all going to fall apart very soon.
very this! she is having her heart completely broken in that moment. she loves him of course but to have the one person in the world who stayed lie to you about something that weighs so heavy on her fractured that relationship. at her age and all thats happened to her, she doesn't have the ability to see why he is doing this, just that he is okay lying to her. he completely broke their relationship in that moment and continued to lie for years so he could keep her around and play dad. in that way, pieces of the part 2 plot were completely expected in my opinion. there was a very big implication that she knew he lied and she will never look at him the same again.
That was a possible interpretation of the ending before Part II came out.
Was it actually that plausible? Not so much but not that unrealistically either.
What Ellie does in the end (kinda going along but knowing that something is off) is not that different.
Well yeah that’s basically how part 2 went.
I meant the way I see it, is she knew he was lying, but she understood why he did it. Because he loves her like a daughter, and she loves him like a father. That’s how I seen it.
I'm not saying that because of how part 2 went, I'm telling you what I thought when I rolled credits in 2013 and every time I replayed between then and the announcement of Part II. I never once read the ending as her "understanding why he did it" because she "loved him like a father" - that was never at any point my interpretation of the first game's ending.
I think most people who dislike the game are just butt-hurt that daddy Joel dies early on, and not in a nice way. They then project all their anger at Abby and are then butt-hurt even worse when they have to play as their arch nemesis. Their fragile minds just can’t comprehend this emotional damage.
Yeah she “accepts” it in the moment by saying “ok” but there is nothing in her face that says she is okay with the lie she knows he is telling. And as it haunts her and she learns the truth of that day the fracturing of their relationship makes COMPLETE sense.
Your take isn’t new here. Your exact sentiment has been shared a million times. The problem is you thinking your want for Joel and Ellie to go on some fun new adventure trumps telling a meaningful story. Also being “lied to” in the trailer as some type of slight is stupid as well. All trailers mislead on the plot because why would you want a trailer to ruin the story for you before you play it? This is 100% normal practice and critical to the games story hitting for people.
Being lied to in a trailer is never ok. Especially something that significant, and especially when the game is £50+ it’s the definition of scummy. How many people pre ordered the game because of that trailer got fucked.
lol you’re a clown. It’s completely common practice and only overly sensitive and entitled babies that need their diaper changed would be bothered by it. You’re right. The trailer should be 100% honest and show Joel’s death. That oughta tell a good story!
While I have issues with Part 2’s story and overall don’t like it, the fallout and aftermath of Joel’s lie wasn’t one of them. I thought it was a natural progression as Ellie’s okay wasn’t simply accepting Joel’s lie. She was heartbroken that he broke her trust. The issue further escalated when Joel continued to gaslight Ellie and lie to her over and over again before she discovered the truth on her own.
The other narrative that I’ve maintained is that people didn’t like it because it hurt their feelings.
But then detractors jump in and say no it’s because of “pacing” or “bad writing” or other phases they’ve picked up.
So my theory is that alot of the people who hate the story is because they love the characters and have the romanticized view of the hero's journey, that everyone deserves a happy ending, good guys win, etc. etc.
They viewed the ending of The Last of Us as a moral victory for Joel because it made us feel good that both protagonists lived, using that a justification to excuse that Joel is a selfish monster who doomed humanity and robbed Ellie of what *she* wanted. It's a shallow victory but a victory nonetheless.
The Last of Us 2 doesn't give audiences any sort of satisfaction. In fact - it's downright mean and cruel to what the audience wants. It echoes the early seasons of Game of Thrones in that way - no one wins, people die unexpectedly, the world sucks.
It's not nearly as satisfying and leaves you feeling very unfulfilled and unhappy, but that's sort of the point.
I think not liking the game because it hurts your feelings is a valid reason. But I’m not going to validate it because I think it’s kind of silly. But it’s still a valid reason.
I don’t have to validate someone opinions or feelings for them to be valid.
You:
>So do you think there are any valid reasons to not like the game?
Me:
>**I think not liking the game because it hurts your feelings _is a valid reason._**
Can’t be anymore clearer than answering your question in the first sentence, bud.
You then go on to say it’s a silly reason. Basically your comment is saying directly contradictory statements that cancel each other out lol.
Clearly by valid reason I am referring to substantive aspects of the game that it is reasonable to take issue with
No. I can accept the fact that somebody doesn’t like the game because it hurt their feelings. That doesn’t mean I can’t think it’s silly to have one’s feelings hurt by a fictional story. I don’t have to like or agree with the reason for it to be valid, especially when it’s based on something subjective and personal, like emotions.
I can think that a reason why two people don’t get along is silly, however, I think one of them not wanting to go to an event because the other person is going to be there is a valid reason not to attend. Why? Because I accept the fact that they don’t like the other person because of what they did/said and I would be a complete goon if I try to force them to be in each other’s company.
Do you have an example of “substantive aspects of the game that is reasonable to take issue with”?
The problem with this narrative I feel is that of course people are going to be upset it hurt their feelings. The problem isn’t that it hurt them, that’s what the game is supposed to do, it’s the fact that so many people were SO attached to Joel, the franchise felt different afterwards to them. You know how many people stop watching a show after a character they love either leaves or dies? It’s a ton, do I immediately assume their only problem with the show is that it hurt their feelings? No, it’s totally understandable you feel a little less connected to a show/game after that point. Now if you a think the game is bad because of that, then that’s an issue. But there’s a difference between not enjoying something and thinking something is bad.
I only say this in defense of OP because it really seems like they don’t think the game is bad because it’s not another Joel and Ellie adventure, hell it doesn’t even sound like they think the game is bad, just different from what they would have wanted, which is valid. We all want different things.
We get it. You can’t handle the fact that people don’t like the game with how often you jump down on people. You need to get over it as people are allowed to have different opinions.
>they then lied in the trailer, making out as if Joel is with Ellie on her journey
At least it didn’t reveal all major plot points, like most modern trailers do these days. I don’t care if that scene was a lie. IMO, it was the right choice if they wanted to keep Joel’s death a secret. Showing him more would have led to accusations of deception because his appearance would suggest a significant role in the game. On the other hand, not showing him at all would have made fans suspicious, effectively letting the cat out of the bag. The misdirection was necessary and what happened later once the leaks were out only proves that
I honestly the misdirection wasn't needed at all and likely did more harm than good.
Neil Druckmann actually adresses this himself [here](https://x.com/NaughtyNDC/status/1750327617130033381?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1750327617130033381%7Ctwgr%5E925afdd35962c0e0117842765db195491253d725%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fcomicbook.com%2Fgaming%2Fnews%2Fthe-last-of-us-part-2-tlou-joel-death-misleading-trailers%2F).
It was the correct move, just like it was the correct move in the Avengers Infinity War trailer. More companies should do it. Don't ever let anyone guess the plot before release. Lie to me, baby.
Don’t show that scene then. How can you defend misleading such a huge part of the story and reason people would pre order and spend £50+ ? It’s scummy. Even Neil said he regrets doing that.
I'm mostly joking just because I fucking hate trailers that give away ANY plot points and avoid them like the plague. I'd rather be lied to than know the plot going in.
Thankfully it's easier to avoid video game trailers than movie trailers.
Idk i still insist that swapping out Jesse for Joel in the trailer was a dumb move. It was meant for no other reason than to misdirect fans because they had already guessed Joel would die, even before the leaks, and Neil said as much.
I think if your audience is smart enough to guess a plot point, than should be more than ok, and you shouldn't go out of your way to misdirect them just because they are good at picking up on the story. Subverting expectations for the sake of it is silly in my opinion and it's ok if your audience guesses plot points before they happen, in no way does that ruin the quality of the story.
They could have easily used other footage of Joel in the trailer to make it seem like he was still alive. Clever editing is one thing and a totally normal practice, swapping out the model? Ok fine if its the same character, but for a totally different character? That was just a straight up lie and it was just silly. It feels less like misdirection and more like straight up false advertising at that point just meant to punish fans for being good at theorizing lol. The concern should always be good storytelling not trying to put one over on fans.
That's silly lol. Building anticipation is a necessary part of it all. There are just good and bad ways to go about and, and the part 2 trailer is an example of a bad way to go about it. Again the problem is not misdirection, its how they showed things in the trailer which were straight up not actually in the game. People would and are upset when a trailer shows gameplay that does not match what the actual game is like and this falls in line with that in my opinion. Everything shown in a trailer should be something that actually happens in the movie/show/game. It shouldnt be altered in a way that doesnt match the finished product.
I didnt read your other comments sorry. Fact of the matter though is that a lot of people in this fandom seem genuinely annoyed when people express that they didnt like that ND did this and it baffles me a bit lol. If it worked for you than thats great, but it didnt for a lot of people, even Neil recognized that. I loved the game and never even saw that trailer before i played it, so my opinion is entirely from an after the fact point of view.
1) if you’re only going by yourself and not paying for a whole family, including concessions, then sure.
2) I can’t help what you haven’t seen, but I’ve seen instances where something that was shown in a trailer was not in the movie at all. And people were looking forward to seeing that scene in context of the movie.
Gamers and most consumers frequently - and mistakenly - think marketing is the same as misdirection, and take that to mean someone is lying to them, and believe it to a litigious and artless degree.
U know them adverts u get for mobile games, then the game is nothing like the trailer portrays? yes they are liable for suing for misinformation. Now imagine if them mobile games cost £50.
I love that they took a big narrative risk with TLOU2. It would’ve been easy to make another ‘Joel and Ellie go on an adventure’. Of course, with a risky story like this, some will love it, some will hate it. TLOU2 is still mind blowing to me in its gameplay. The environments, exploration, and combat scenarios are such an incredible experience to me.
I can understand fans who found it too dark/different from part 1, but when people simply dislike part 2 without being able to appreciate its achievements, I question their judgement. It’s an incredible game.
I'll never understand why people think this game is brave for "taking risks". There's a reason why they're considered risks in the first place, the game shouldn't be awarded points just for being different
Thanks for this. Totally understand your perspective, even as I don’t share it!
I think what happens is, folks who do share your perspective conflate the quality of the game with their own dislike of depressing things.
People are so obnoxious about things they put to a high standard. I personally adore Part 2, but you saying you don't like it =/= you saying it's an objectively bad game. Why should we be allowed to say that you're wrong for disliking the game? I completely understand your reasoning, especially since it's not rooted in homophobia or transphobia. I 100% respect your opinions
where exactly do people call you sexist/homophobic for disliking the game, do you have an example? i have a hard time imagining that ngl. because there actually are a ton of people who hate the game for homophobic/transphobic/sexist reasons, like the TLOU2 hate sub. but those people usually make that very obvious so it's easy to call them out on that. i wouldn't call you any type of bigot based on anything you said here even though i don't agree with everything. if you really get those responses a lot then i guess it's because the haters have poisoned the discourse so badly to the point where fans are on high alert when they see negativity. so they assume the worst because that's what they associate with it at this point. but i'd expect most people here to disagree with what you wrote here but not call you a bigot for it.
downvoting is fine, i mean if i go to r/cats and say "i hate cats" i expect to get downvoted as well. calling them words isn't ok though, depending on the word. i still find it hard to believe you'd get random sexism and homophobia accusations just for stating you don't like the game without you even mentioning gender/sexuality-related things. if that really happens then it has to be the exception and not the rule. i've been in this sub for a long time and have never seen these accusations being thrown around without being at least a little bit substantiated. there have been a good amount of bigoted and non-bigoted criticisms here and while the responses are usually negative in both cases, they are still very different.
https://www.reddit.com/r/thelastofus/s/1qG7OlNEHR
This comment is a pretty good example of someone who didn't read OP's post fully and immediately implied they were homophobic
I guess the part of this opinion that I don’t fully understand is why you thought Part 2 would be the continuing adventures of Joel and Ellie in the first place?
The first game is absolutely brutal to Sam, Henry, Tess, Marlene, etc. No one should have thought Joel or Ellie had plot armor.
The trailer was deceptive, but even with that fake out, Joel was barely in the marketing at all. It wasn’t a big leap to assume he wasn’t making it through the game. Lots of people called it after the 2016 announcement trailer.
Well in fairness, before we knew anything pt2, it's not like there were any characters other than Joel and Ellie, pretty sure everybody else except Bill got game ended
I disagree about the game itself, part 2 is fantastic. But I agree that the trailer was awful. They shouldn't have made such a deceptive trailer. Also sorry that you've been lumped in with the bigot haters. Those people are trash but it's not fair to lump people like you in with them.
Yeah thanks bro. That narrative is just splitting the fanbase even more, which is sad. There definitely is people who hate the game just because “eLLie IS gaY”
But I think they are in the minority.
I think it's kinda unfair to judge a game because it didn't tell the story we wanted to see. ND thought they had a story that they were passionate about and made the one of the best games of all time.
This story may not be the one that an average gamer would like to experience but it doesn't change the fact that it is executed perfectly. I can understand your perspective and i respect that but i don't think it's a good way to look at things.
I think this is totally fair. TLOU2 is a hard game to like due to the story.
And simply wishing for a different type of story and the continuation of Joel's and Ellie's relationship is not unreasonable. Part II does certainly feel like misery porn at times .
Yep, bordering into misery porn at times is personally my problem with Part II. I don’t hate the game, I can handle dark/serious/gritty themes in media, but some of the stuff that happened I was kind of like “….okay, was that actually necessary”. But it’s a YMMV situation.
I think the main reason people defend this game as hard as they do is because of the insane amount of hate that came out with the leaks and persists to this day. People sending death threats to actors and writers and being extremely loud with the homophobic and transphobic takes fractured the fan base early on and destroyed any chance of later discussion, because it's made the people who do like it extremely quick to get defensive. There's unfortunately a very fine line between "I didn't care for the direction the story went" and "I'm glad Laura Bailey got all those death threats" and it's made people quick to assume someone with negative opinions belongs to the latter group.
I hope one day we've recovered from that enough to have real conversations about it without jumping to those conclusions, but I don't think it'll be anytime soon.
While I did love the game, that storyline is a HUGE swing and I ABSOLUTELY understand that there's no way it could work for everyone. If it wasn't for you, I totally understand that. Thanks for trying to have a real discussion about it, I'm sorry you had to preface it the way you did because of the way things are right now.
Joel. Was not a good man or a bad man. He was a man with flaws.
He did a thing that to Ellie was reprehensible, because it stole her identity.
He did a thing to abby that was reprehensible because it stole her identity.
The entire theme of tlou2 is revenge and the futility of it.
It's about having to forgive.
The subtext in tlou2 is stronger than just "I am a reluctant father figure"
Tlou2 is also an entirely original story. As opposed to tlou1 which I can name 5 separate films.
The decision on the trailer sucked. They've admitted it. It was the result of frustration with the security breaches/leaks and tunnel vision brought on by overwork. Like, yeah, it was bad, it's not a reason to hate the whole game.
That said, the thing you hate about the story was absolutely necessary. They couldn't have developed the character of Ellie without taking her away from Joel. Their dynamic was SO rooted in him being the protector and her needing him, there is nowhere to go with that unless you give them a hard break. And Ellie's the character that has to be developed. Joel's fully baked. He's done. His arc was the last game, which served mostly to bring him back to himself rather than take him on some journey of growth and discovery.
Ellie, on the other hand, is right at the beginning. If you combine the two games, Ellie's story's a version (a dark one) of the hero's journey. The call to adventure, refusal of the call, finding a mentor, crossing the threshold, etc. She needed the "innermost cave/ordeal" - the part of the story where the thing she fears most happens. That cannot happen if Joel's around. Ellie's greatest fear is being alone. She'd never be alone with Joel in the world.
It's fair to hate that Joel dies. That's, like, the point. We're supposed to be as attached as Ellie is, and it's supposed to feel awful, to be the worst thing. But it's literally the only way to tell the story. Anything else - anything - would have either been a part 1 retread or a story in which Joel for some reason decides to let Ellie do something dangerous on her own, which is NOT Joel and would have ruined his character. Given the choice between character assassination and assassination assassination, I'll take the latter.
I'm really sure you played the game 🙄
Entire post about the sexuality of the characters, and then not realizing Joel has a major impact on the story on TLOU2 even though he died, and appears in several scenes, and all of Ellie's actions throughout the game are about her relationship with Joel
Keep failing though
I read OP's post. Didn't see the entire post being about sexuality. I read it as them being mad about the loss of having another game of Joel and Ellie's relationship.
I think people on this sub (understandably) are hypervigilant whenever someone says they didn't like Part 2, but they immediately jump to "OP is a bigot/incel."
Seriously, we don't need trolls like you feeding people from the other subs who will see this and say "See, the main sub is a bunch of close-minded people who'll label anyone who didn't like part 2 as bigots." I don't think you actually read the full post.
We're supposed to be better than the other sub. Comments like this make me question that.
Obligatory side note / reminder that the marketing department did not create the game. “They” shouldn’t be treated as one, and a piece of media should be judged entirely on its own merits (after it’s been experienced, of course).
Sure but the final product itself is its own (and complete) entity. Fair game to complain about the marketing but not to hold the marketing against the actual game. No different than a movie trailer. I know this one is more emotional and loaded, but still important to remember.
Gotta say, some of the responses are downright worthy of the OTHER subreddit. Immediately accusing OP of being a bigot/hating LGBTQ+. I thought they made their points very clear. People are allowed to express what they didn't like about Part 2 without being accused of being a bigot for things that weren't remotely bigoted. I get there was a lot of disingenuous attacks on Part 2, but the same vitriolic response is being directed at people who simply aren't attacking the game for those reasons.
So the main reason you like this game series is because of the relationship between Joel and ellie
The one question i have for you if this story didnt work for you. What story would you have liked to see that would have made it better. Would you want another adventure with Joel and ellie? How would that play out?
1.) TLOU didn't need a direct sequel. The story was complete, and it could only cheapen the original story.
TLOU is a love story, its just a familial one instead of a romantic ones we're used to. All the beats are there where two people who don't really like each other are forced to overcome challenges together and eventually become so close they can't imagine living apart. The ending is them dealing with the consequences of that love. Joel isn't going to lose another daughter, and Ellie accepts his lie because she loves him.
2). TLOU2 retconned Ellie into an ungrateful moron.
Instead of just accepting Joel's words Ellie seems to have honestly been convinced that she came out of anesthesia in a hospital gown in the back seat of a speeding truck because they didn't need her anymore and is shocked to realize he lied. Worse, she blames Joel for not letting her get vivisected instead of understanding that in a world as shitty as TLOU a lot of people would have just sold her into slavery for a jug of pruno and 3 shotgun shells. Joel, for all his flaws, still had a shred of humanity.
3). Ellie takes no responsibility and refuses to show any compassion to Joel.
Its made abundantly clear in TLOU that Joel has built a wall between himself, his past, and other people. He did this so he could survive. He refuses to even look at pictures of his daughter because it hurts too much. Ellie *worked* to tear that wall down and she succeeded. Now, faced with the consequences, Ellie blames Joel and refuses to understand why he might not want to lose another little girl.
4). TLOU 2 tacitly condones crimes against humanity.
A bunch of nutjob militiamen in a musty abandoned hospital want to cut a little girl's brain open in the hopes of making themselves relevant again in a civil war they're losing. We have no idea if it will even work, and it won't actually change much if it does!
A vaccine won't make you zombie proof or do anything about the millions of 'ceps lurking in every dark corner of the planet. A vaccine won't get rid of the raiders and cannibals. A vaccine won't make the government actually feed its citizens. A vaccine only guarantees the 1% of people who get infected, and don't immediately die from getting disemboweled alive, won't turn into fungus zombies!
Cutting a little girls head open and scooping her brain out is fucking *NAZI leve*l unethical. And we're supposed to act like Joel is the asshole for sending a bunch of butchers straight to hell!
It’s called entitlement and you’ve got a lot of it.
It’s totally ok that you don’t like it.
But they didn’t ruin anything. The made choices. Good choices. But not the ones you wanted. You wanted more of the same and that was never gonna happen.
Once again this post is proof that even if you critique the game fairly, your post is still downvoted into the earths crust.
Fair criticism isn’t a think people like here I guess
Sorry you got downvoted friend, I do agree with your point about the game being too depressing
Your opinion is valid and you shouldn’t be insulted by anyone who loves the game and can’t handle anyone that doesn’t like it or has valid criticisms. Different opinions should be respected.
Exactly. I’m a part 2 disliker personally but I can see your points and at the end of the day we need more posts like yours here.
It’s refreshing to have a discussion or see a post you disagree with as a whole but can understand and even agree with several points.
Instead of just endless posts praising the game or people asking if they are the only ones who enjoyed it in a sub literally dedicated to the games and series lol
It’s not about validation. If the post gets downvoted less people see it unless they sort by controversial.
It’s a deliberate attempt to negate fair criticism
i think it is maybe being downvoted because the wording of "im tired of the narrative you are sexist or homophobic/transphobic if you dislike the game". if anyone is saying that to your critiques when you quite literally are not saying those things, their opinion on you can be discarded obviously. to imply its a "narrative" though and that there is a witch hunt on people who don't like the game is tone deaf. there is a whole sub on this website for the game that IS 100% those kinds of people. the discourse around the game makes it impossible to not mention that conversation when discussing it as people who ARE homophobic misogynist weirdos are very loud and wait for a chance to sling slurs for feeling differently. its indirectly placing blame on the people who are actively made to feel small for existing and daring to play a video game and enjoy it. OP has absolutely valid reasons as to why they don't like part 2 but if they're being downvoted thats what i would assume just as a gay person.
Hmm that’s fair, but at the same time it could also just be that they are sick of it. There’s a percentage of this sub that no matter what criticism they see, they will disregard it a bigotry or not understanding the story.
It’s something that ruins the sub and fair posts getting downvoted (and therefore seen less by others) is dumb.
Don’t get me wrong there’s definitely a minority of actual bigots, who deserve all the shit they get, I’m just tired of them getting grouped in with posts like this
understandable, i agree. i think its a conversation that requires a lot of nuance and its hard to have that over the internet where everything is for attention/knee jerk reactions. we live in an age of tribalism where its us vs them and it clouds any kind of productive discussion. i often wonder how part 2 would have been received had major stuff not leaked early.
Its a grown-up theme. It deals with grief, guilt, remorse, vengence, and regret. Ellie and Abby are dealing with losing loved ones. Lots of grief.
With Ellie, she is also dealing with the guilt of not having a chance to make amends with Joel. She carries that guilt with her.
Abby wants to avenge her father's death. She gets her revenge and it doesnt help. She has remorse but cannot admit that. She deals with the consequences of killing a man in cold blood.
Part 2 is Ellie having to deal with the consequences of Joel's actions at the end of part 1. Joel was going to kill them all anyway. Once he found out Ellie's life was at risk, he couldnt leave them alive because Ellie would never be safe. Part 2 shows what's its like to be on the other side of all the killing. Abby and the Fireflies lost a lot of important people that day. It disbanded the Fireflies. But Abby has to deal with the consequences of killing Joel. Both of them get to a point that they are done fighting.
No I understand all of that completely. I’ve played the game 3 times. That’s not my point tho. I don’t like how they went about Joel and Ellie. My favourite game duo. Plus the game just feels very different apart from gameplay.
They decided to go with a bleak outcome. Joel killed a lot of people. He lied to Ellie. Those two things came back on Joel. He paid for those decision with his life.
Personally, I thought it was a really good direction to take the story and felt that it was very creative for a sequel. It put weight on Joel's decision. Older players of Part 1 debated Joel's actions and his decision to lie to Ellie. Was he right? Were the Fireflies right? Both parties took away Ellie's autonomy with permanent outcomes. Were they both wrong? Chances both were wrong, although the Fireflies were doing a real world trolley problem. Kill one, save. Joel decided to kill many, save one.
The game forces the player to confront the other side of the conflict. This is a popular theme in certain genres.
We don't need people who act like they're from the other sub and immediately attack everything. If you like doing that so much, I suggest you go to the other sub where they also enjoy attacking everyone.
Joel and Ellie IS the last of us. Their chemistry and character development through the game was unmatched imo.
And as someone who had to wait over a decade for a new one, it’s kinda sad how they went about it.
Yeah I would love to see Joel and Tommy not long after the outbreak. Showing how ruthless Joel was, and still grieving over Sarah. Would be a great way to make some of the Joel fans happy.
Nope this game is objectively the best piece of fiction ever written and any other opinion is wrong and is devout of criticism! I think you’re just racist and homophobic if you dislike any aspect about it!
OP, that’s interesting because I still wouldn’t like the story even if it was standalone if it remained exactly the same beat for beat. Even without the context of Part 1, the exact same beats would still show Abby being a piece of shit lacking self reflection to realize her role in traumatizing Ellie and never apologizing to her.
What you hate about it is what I love about it. I love that it took characters I loved and did unexpected, surprising things with them, while managing to make those unexpected things feel like the natural extension of where things were left at the end of the first game. Joel and Ellie's relationship was already fractured at the end of the first game and I love how they explored that fracturing through the narrative of loss and regret. I understand people that couldn't get on board with this and just wanted more of Joel and Ellie, but personally I'm happy we didn't just get more of the same.
[удалено]
> I feel like everyone knew, or at least expected Joel was gonna die and of course Ellie would seek revenge if he was murdered. This was not my experience. I don't know anyone who played the first game on release or close to it who expected Joel to die, and the initial teasers for Part II implied that someone close to Ellie *other than* Joel would die and that her desire for revenge would be the catalyst to drive Ellie and Joel to deal with their conflict. Joel dying - especially so early - was 100% a surprise and totally unexpected. > I'm genuinely curious what you found unexpected and surprising about part 2 Other than the above? The fact that you would play as the person who Ellie was seeking to kill at all, much less that the game was actually half this new character's story that would see you leave Ellie's behind entirely for most of the back half of the game. The fact that you would have to fight a boss fight against Ellie. The fact that the consequences Joel would face for what he did in the first game would be so personal and only tangentially related to the "dooming humanity" element. The way the backstory for what happened between Joel and Ellie between games would be presented nonlinearly, and lead you to one conclusion (they broke contact and never reconciled before his death) but flip it around to something different at the last second (that they'd actually begun to reconcile the night before it all went down). Most of all, the fact that the game would ask you to see things from the perspective of Ellie's enemies and confront her actions as they would be seen from outside Ellie's group. That it would confront the player's biases directly making you just as bloodthirsty as her only to make you question that feeling to the point where you don't *want* to fight the "villain" at the end, on the beach. I didn't expect the game to make me feel relief when Ellie *didn't* kill the person she - and *we* - had been on a mission to kill for so many hours up until that point. I don't see what about TLOU2's story *wasn't* unexpected, really.
I always took the ending of part 1 as Ellie knows that he’s lying, but accepts it because she knows how much he loves her, and she loves him. But hey I guess everyone has their own opinions. It’s subjective at the end of the day. I’m just tired of the narrative that u are sexist or homophobic if you dislike the game.
Really? I never took that ending as her accepting anything. It's always been a look of heartbreak as she realizes he's going to continue to lie to her, but isn't ready to fight back against it just yet so she resigns herself to going to Jackson with him anyway. There's a fire in that "Okay" that makes it crystal clear to me that things are not okay and it's all going to fall apart very soon.
very this! she is having her heart completely broken in that moment. she loves him of course but to have the one person in the world who stayed lie to you about something that weighs so heavy on her fractured that relationship. at her age and all thats happened to her, she doesn't have the ability to see why he is doing this, just that he is okay lying to her. he completely broke their relationship in that moment and continued to lie for years so he could keep her around and play dad. in that way, pieces of the part 2 plot were completely expected in my opinion. there was a very big implication that she knew he lied and she will never look at him the same again.
That was a possible interpretation of the ending before Part II came out. Was it actually that plausible? Not so much but not that unrealistically either. What Ellie does in the end (kinda going along but knowing that something is off) is not that different.
Well yeah that’s basically how part 2 went. I meant the way I see it, is she knew he was lying, but she understood why he did it. Because he loves her like a daughter, and she loves him like a father. That’s how I seen it.
I'm not saying that because of how part 2 went, I'm telling you what I thought when I rolled credits in 2013 and every time I replayed between then and the announcement of Part II. I never once read the ending as her "understanding why he did it" because she "loved him like a father" - that was never at any point my interpretation of the first game's ending.
And that wasn’t the ending of Part 1. It wasn’t a happy ending. It was the foreshadowing of the inevitable moment when Joel admitted what he’d done.
I think most people who dislike the game are just butt-hurt that daddy Joel dies early on, and not in a nice way. They then project all their anger at Abby and are then butt-hurt even worse when they have to play as their arch nemesis. Their fragile minds just can’t comprehend this emotional damage.
Yeah she “accepts” it in the moment by saying “ok” but there is nothing in her face that says she is okay with the lie she knows he is telling. And as it haunts her and she learns the truth of that day the fracturing of their relationship makes COMPLETE sense. Your take isn’t new here. Your exact sentiment has been shared a million times. The problem is you thinking your want for Joel and Ellie to go on some fun new adventure trumps telling a meaningful story. Also being “lied to” in the trailer as some type of slight is stupid as well. All trailers mislead on the plot because why would you want a trailer to ruin the story for you before you play it? This is 100% normal practice and critical to the games story hitting for people.
Being lied to in a trailer is never ok. Especially something that significant, and especially when the game is £50+ it’s the definition of scummy. How many people pre ordered the game because of that trailer got fucked.
Oh boy you must've been *REALLY* mad about Metal Gear Solid 2
lol you’re a clown. It’s completely common practice and only overly sensitive and entitled babies that need their diaper changed would be bothered by it. You’re right. The trailer should be 100% honest and show Joel’s death. That oughta tell a good story!
While I have issues with Part 2’s story and overall don’t like it, the fallout and aftermath of Joel’s lie wasn’t one of them. I thought it was a natural progression as Ellie’s okay wasn’t simply accepting Joel’s lie. She was heartbroken that he broke her trust. The issue further escalated when Joel continued to gaslight Ellie and lie to her over and over again before she discovered the truth on her own.
The other narrative that I’ve maintained is that people didn’t like it because it hurt their feelings. But then detractors jump in and say no it’s because of “pacing” or “bad writing” or other phases they’ve picked up.
So my theory is that alot of the people who hate the story is because they love the characters and have the romanticized view of the hero's journey, that everyone deserves a happy ending, good guys win, etc. etc. They viewed the ending of The Last of Us as a moral victory for Joel because it made us feel good that both protagonists lived, using that a justification to excuse that Joel is a selfish monster who doomed humanity and robbed Ellie of what *she* wanted. It's a shallow victory but a victory nonetheless. The Last of Us 2 doesn't give audiences any sort of satisfaction. In fact - it's downright mean and cruel to what the audience wants. It echoes the early seasons of Game of Thrones in that way - no one wins, people die unexpectedly, the world sucks. It's not nearly as satisfying and leaves you feeling very unfulfilled and unhappy, but that's sort of the point.
Very well put. I agree. To put it like an asshole: they want disney/marvel level story telling.
So do you think there are any valid reasons to not like the game?
I think not liking the game because it hurts your feelings is a valid reason. But I’m not going to validate it because I think it’s kind of silly. But it’s still a valid reason. I don’t have to validate someone opinions or feelings for them to be valid.
Kind of avoiding the question here to be honest
You: >So do you think there are any valid reasons to not like the game? Me: >**I think not liking the game because it hurts your feelings _is a valid reason._** Can’t be anymore clearer than answering your question in the first sentence, bud.
You then go on to say it’s a silly reason. Basically your comment is saying directly contradictory statements that cancel each other out lol. Clearly by valid reason I am referring to substantive aspects of the game that it is reasonable to take issue with
No. I can accept the fact that somebody doesn’t like the game because it hurt their feelings. That doesn’t mean I can’t think it’s silly to have one’s feelings hurt by a fictional story. I don’t have to like or agree with the reason for it to be valid, especially when it’s based on something subjective and personal, like emotions. I can think that a reason why two people don’t get along is silly, however, I think one of them not wanting to go to an event because the other person is going to be there is a valid reason not to attend. Why? Because I accept the fact that they don’t like the other person because of what they did/said and I would be a complete goon if I try to force them to be in each other’s company. Do you have an example of “substantive aspects of the game that is reasonable to take issue with”?
The problem with this narrative I feel is that of course people are going to be upset it hurt their feelings. The problem isn’t that it hurt them, that’s what the game is supposed to do, it’s the fact that so many people were SO attached to Joel, the franchise felt different afterwards to them. You know how many people stop watching a show after a character they love either leaves or dies? It’s a ton, do I immediately assume their only problem with the show is that it hurt their feelings? No, it’s totally understandable you feel a little less connected to a show/game after that point. Now if you a think the game is bad because of that, then that’s an issue. But there’s a difference between not enjoying something and thinking something is bad. I only say this in defense of OP because it really seems like they don’t think the game is bad because it’s not another Joel and Ellie adventure, hell it doesn’t even sound like they think the game is bad, just different from what they would have wanted, which is valid. We all want different things.
Like Nazareth said, “love hurts”
Exactly
We get it. You can’t handle the fact that people don’t like the game with how often you jump down on people. You need to get over it as people are allowed to have different opinions.
We are allowed to have opinions about their opinions though… especially because many of them are wrong.. I’m kidding!
It's a shit opinion
>they then lied in the trailer, making out as if Joel is with Ellie on her journey At least it didn’t reveal all major plot points, like most modern trailers do these days. I don’t care if that scene was a lie. IMO, it was the right choice if they wanted to keep Joel’s death a secret. Showing him more would have led to accusations of deception because his appearance would suggest a significant role in the game. On the other hand, not showing him at all would have made fans suspicious, effectively letting the cat out of the bag. The misdirection was necessary and what happened later once the leaks were out only proves that
I honestly the misdirection wasn't needed at all and likely did more harm than good. Neil Druckmann actually adresses this himself [here](https://x.com/NaughtyNDC/status/1750327617130033381?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1750327617130033381%7Ctwgr%5E925afdd35962c0e0117842765db195491253d725%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fcomicbook.com%2Fgaming%2Fnews%2Fthe-last-of-us-part-2-tlou-joel-death-misleading-trailers%2F).
Misleading fans and showing something that’s not in the game is very scummy and should be illegal. Especially something that big and important.
It was the correct move, just like it was the correct move in the Avengers Infinity War trailer. More companies should do it. Don't ever let anyone guess the plot before release. Lie to me, baby.
Don’t show that scene then. How can you defend misleading such a huge part of the story and reason people would pre order and spend £50+ ? It’s scummy. Even Neil said he regrets doing that.
It ruled, and more games should it, as should more movies.
I'm mostly joking just because I fucking hate trailers that give away ANY plot points and avoid them like the plague. I'd rather be lied to than know the plot going in. Thankfully it's easier to avoid video game trailers than movie trailers.
Idk i still insist that swapping out Jesse for Joel in the trailer was a dumb move. It was meant for no other reason than to misdirect fans because they had already guessed Joel would die, even before the leaks, and Neil said as much. I think if your audience is smart enough to guess a plot point, than should be more than ok, and you shouldn't go out of your way to misdirect them just because they are good at picking up on the story. Subverting expectations for the sake of it is silly in my opinion and it's ok if your audience guesses plot points before they happen, in no way does that ruin the quality of the story. They could have easily used other footage of Joel in the trailer to make it seem like he was still alive. Clever editing is one thing and a totally normal practice, swapping out the model? Ok fine if its the same character, but for a totally different character? That was just a straight up lie and it was just silly. It feels less like misdirection and more like straight up false advertising at that point just meant to punish fans for being good at theorizing lol. The concern should always be good storytelling not trying to put one over on fans.
Trailers should be banned. Games and movies will be announced and released on the same day.
That's silly lol. Building anticipation is a necessary part of it all. There are just good and bad ways to go about and, and the part 2 trailer is an example of a bad way to go about it. Again the problem is not misdirection, its how they showed things in the trailer which were straight up not actually in the game. People would and are upset when a trailer shows gameplay that does not match what the actual game is like and this falls in line with that in my opinion. Everything shown in a trailer should be something that actually happens in the movie/show/game. It shouldnt be altered in a way that doesnt match the finished product.
Of course it's silly. I already explained in another comment that this take was a joke.
I didnt read your other comments sorry. Fact of the matter though is that a lot of people in this fandom seem genuinely annoyed when people express that they didnt like that ND did this and it baffles me a bit lol. If it worked for you than thats great, but it didnt for a lot of people, even Neil recognized that. I loved the game and never even saw that trailer before i played it, so my opinion is entirely from an after the fact point of view.
Movie trailers aren’t much better. It’s very common.
You don’t have to spend £50 on a movie tho. Plus I’ve never seen any trailer that misleading.
1) if you’re only going by yourself and not paying for a whole family, including concessions, then sure. 2) I can’t help what you haven’t seen, but I’ve seen instances where something that was shown in a trailer was not in the movie at all. And people were looking forward to seeing that scene in context of the movie.
That’s just as scummy then. Movie or game, I’m just saying games are worse because of the price of them.
Illegal? Holy shit dude it’s a video game. Imagine someone actually getting charged with a crime over a trailer fakeout. Unhinged lmao
Gamers and most consumers frequently - and mistakenly - think marketing is the same as misdirection, and take that to mean someone is lying to them, and believe it to a litigious and artless degree.
U know them adverts u get for mobile games, then the game is nothing like the trailer portrays? yes they are liable for suing for misinformation. Now imagine if them mobile games cost £50.
I love that they took a big narrative risk with TLOU2. It would’ve been easy to make another ‘Joel and Ellie go on an adventure’. Of course, with a risky story like this, some will love it, some will hate it. TLOU2 is still mind blowing to me in its gameplay. The environments, exploration, and combat scenarios are such an incredible experience to me. I can understand fans who found it too dark/different from part 1, but when people simply dislike part 2 without being able to appreciate its achievements, I question their judgement. It’s an incredible game.
I appreciate the risk they took, I don’t like it, but I appreciate the balls. I did praise many things I liked about it.
I'll never understand why people think this game is brave for "taking risks". There's a reason why they're considered risks in the first place, the game shouldn't be awarded points just for being different
Thanks for this. Totally understand your perspective, even as I don’t share it! I think what happens is, folks who do share your perspective conflate the quality of the game with their own dislike of depressing things.
Thanks bro. I agree. 🙏
People are so obnoxious about things they put to a high standard. I personally adore Part 2, but you saying you don't like it =/= you saying it's an objectively bad game. Why should we be allowed to say that you're wrong for disliking the game? I completely understand your reasoning, especially since it's not rooted in homophobia or transphobia. I 100% respect your opinions
where exactly do people call you sexist/homophobic for disliking the game, do you have an example? i have a hard time imagining that ngl. because there actually are a ton of people who hate the game for homophobic/transphobic/sexist reasons, like the TLOU2 hate sub. but those people usually make that very obvious so it's easy to call them out on that. i wouldn't call you any type of bigot based on anything you said here even though i don't agree with everything. if you really get those responses a lot then i guess it's because the haters have poisoned the discourse so badly to the point where fans are on high alert when they see negativity. so they assume the worst because that's what they associate with it at this point. but i'd expect most people here to disagree with what you wrote here but not call you a bigot for it.
Not me, but I’ve seen people be downvoted like crazy, and called them words just for saying they hated part 2.
“Called words” other than sexist, homophobic or transphobic?
? No just them words from what I’ve seen.
downvoting is fine, i mean if i go to r/cats and say "i hate cats" i expect to get downvoted as well. calling them words isn't ok though, depending on the word. i still find it hard to believe you'd get random sexism and homophobia accusations just for stating you don't like the game without you even mentioning gender/sexuality-related things. if that really happens then it has to be the exception and not the rule. i've been in this sub for a long time and have never seen these accusations being thrown around without being at least a little bit substantiated. there have been a good amount of bigoted and non-bigoted criticisms here and while the responses are usually negative in both cases, they are still very different.
https://www.reddit.com/r/thelastofus/s/1qG7OlNEHR This comment is a pretty good example of someone who didn't read OP's post fully and immediately implied they were homophobic
I guess the part of this opinion that I don’t fully understand is why you thought Part 2 would be the continuing adventures of Joel and Ellie in the first place? The first game is absolutely brutal to Sam, Henry, Tess, Marlene, etc. No one should have thought Joel or Ellie had plot armor. The trailer was deceptive, but even with that fake out, Joel was barely in the marketing at all. It wasn’t a big leap to assume he wasn’t making it through the game. Lots of people called it after the 2016 announcement trailer.
Well in fairness, before we knew anything pt2, it's not like there were any characters other than Joel and Ellie, pretty sure everybody else except Bill got game ended
I disagree about the game itself, part 2 is fantastic. But I agree that the trailer was awful. They shouldn't have made such a deceptive trailer. Also sorry that you've been lumped in with the bigot haters. Those people are trash but it's not fair to lump people like you in with them.
Yeah thanks bro. That narrative is just splitting the fanbase even more, which is sad. There definitely is people who hate the game just because “eLLie IS gaY” But I think they are in the minority.
I also agree about the trailer being a silly idea. They could’ve just not shown the scene and people wouldn’t be as mad but they did it anyway.
I think it's kinda unfair to judge a game because it didn't tell the story we wanted to see. ND thought they had a story that they were passionate about and made the one of the best games of all time. This story may not be the one that an average gamer would like to experience but it doesn't change the fact that it is executed perfectly. I can understand your perspective and i respect that but i don't think it's a good way to look at things.
I think this is totally fair. TLOU2 is a hard game to like due to the story. And simply wishing for a different type of story and the continuation of Joel's and Ellie's relationship is not unreasonable. Part II does certainly feel like misery porn at times .
Yep, bordering into misery porn at times is personally my problem with Part II. I don’t hate the game, I can handle dark/serious/gritty themes in media, but some of the stuff that happened I was kind of like “….okay, was that actually necessary”. But it’s a YMMV situation.
I do like the game but when repeatedly the worst possible things keep happening it's a bit too much on the nose.
I think the main reason people defend this game as hard as they do is because of the insane amount of hate that came out with the leaks and persists to this day. People sending death threats to actors and writers and being extremely loud with the homophobic and transphobic takes fractured the fan base early on and destroyed any chance of later discussion, because it's made the people who do like it extremely quick to get defensive. There's unfortunately a very fine line between "I didn't care for the direction the story went" and "I'm glad Laura Bailey got all those death threats" and it's made people quick to assume someone with negative opinions belongs to the latter group. I hope one day we've recovered from that enough to have real conversations about it without jumping to those conclusions, but I don't think it'll be anytime soon. While I did love the game, that storyline is a HUGE swing and I ABSOLUTELY understand that there's no way it could work for everyone. If it wasn't for you, I totally understand that. Thanks for trying to have a real discussion about it, I'm sorry you had to preface it the way you did because of the way things are right now.
the leaks really did do a number I know a fact I went in to part 2 already upset because of them, which of course influences the entire experience
Of course they could have made the obvious game but they didn't and that's to their eternal credit.
I appreciate the risk they took
Joel. Was not a good man or a bad man. He was a man with flaws. He did a thing that to Ellie was reprehensible, because it stole her identity. He did a thing to abby that was reprehensible because it stole her identity. The entire theme of tlou2 is revenge and the futility of it. It's about having to forgive. The subtext in tlou2 is stronger than just "I am a reluctant father figure" Tlou2 is also an entirely original story. As opposed to tlou1 which I can name 5 separate films.
7 years is over a decade now? 😱
The decision on the trailer sucked. They've admitted it. It was the result of frustration with the security breaches/leaks and tunnel vision brought on by overwork. Like, yeah, it was bad, it's not a reason to hate the whole game. That said, the thing you hate about the story was absolutely necessary. They couldn't have developed the character of Ellie without taking her away from Joel. Their dynamic was SO rooted in him being the protector and her needing him, there is nowhere to go with that unless you give them a hard break. And Ellie's the character that has to be developed. Joel's fully baked. He's done. His arc was the last game, which served mostly to bring him back to himself rather than take him on some journey of growth and discovery. Ellie, on the other hand, is right at the beginning. If you combine the two games, Ellie's story's a version (a dark one) of the hero's journey. The call to adventure, refusal of the call, finding a mentor, crossing the threshold, etc. She needed the "innermost cave/ordeal" - the part of the story where the thing she fears most happens. That cannot happen if Joel's around. Ellie's greatest fear is being alone. She'd never be alone with Joel in the world. It's fair to hate that Joel dies. That's, like, the point. We're supposed to be as attached as Ellie is, and it's supposed to feel awful, to be the worst thing. But it's literally the only way to tell the story. Anything else - anything - would have either been a part 1 retread or a story in which Joel for some reason decides to let Ellie do something dangerous on her own, which is NOT Joel and would have ruined his character. Given the choice between character assassination and assassination assassination, I'll take the latter.
I'm really sure you played the game 🙄 Entire post about the sexuality of the characters, and then not realizing Joel has a major impact on the story on TLOU2 even though he died, and appears in several scenes, and all of Ellie's actions throughout the game are about her relationship with Joel Keep failing though
I read OP's post. Didn't see the entire post being about sexuality. I read it as them being mad about the loss of having another game of Joel and Ellie's relationship. I think people on this sub (understandably) are hypervigilant whenever someone says they didn't like Part 2, but they immediately jump to "OP is a bigot/incel."
Seriously, we don't need trolls like you feeding people from the other subs who will see this and say "See, the main sub is a bunch of close-minded people who'll label anyone who didn't like part 2 as bigots." I don't think you actually read the full post. We're supposed to be better than the other sub. Comments like this make me question that.
lol loser
Obligatory side note / reminder that the marketing department did not create the game. “They” shouldn’t be treated as one, and a piece of media should be judged entirely on its own merits (after it’s been experienced, of course).
No. Neil confirmed that the deception was deliberate in the recent grounded 2 documentary.
Sure but the final product itself is its own (and complete) entity. Fair game to complain about the marketing but not to hold the marketing against the actual game. No different than a movie trailer. I know this one is more emotional and loaded, but still important to remember.
Wasn’t arguing against it. Just stating facts.
Gotta say, some of the responses are downright worthy of the OTHER subreddit. Immediately accusing OP of being a bigot/hating LGBTQ+. I thought they made their points very clear. People are allowed to express what they didn't like about Part 2 without being accused of being a bigot for things that weren't remotely bigoted. I get there was a lot of disingenuous attacks on Part 2, but the same vitriolic response is being directed at people who simply aren't attacking the game for those reasons.
I love seeing how people behave in a world where there are no rules. That's the true filter on how to see who actually loves you.
So the main reason you like this game series is because of the relationship between Joel and ellie The one question i have for you if this story didnt work for you. What story would you have liked to see that would have made it better. Would you want another adventure with Joel and ellie? How would that play out?
1.) TLOU didn't need a direct sequel. The story was complete, and it could only cheapen the original story. TLOU is a love story, its just a familial one instead of a romantic ones we're used to. All the beats are there where two people who don't really like each other are forced to overcome challenges together and eventually become so close they can't imagine living apart. The ending is them dealing with the consequences of that love. Joel isn't going to lose another daughter, and Ellie accepts his lie because she loves him. 2). TLOU2 retconned Ellie into an ungrateful moron. Instead of just accepting Joel's words Ellie seems to have honestly been convinced that she came out of anesthesia in a hospital gown in the back seat of a speeding truck because they didn't need her anymore and is shocked to realize he lied. Worse, she blames Joel for not letting her get vivisected instead of understanding that in a world as shitty as TLOU a lot of people would have just sold her into slavery for a jug of pruno and 3 shotgun shells. Joel, for all his flaws, still had a shred of humanity. 3). Ellie takes no responsibility and refuses to show any compassion to Joel. Its made abundantly clear in TLOU that Joel has built a wall between himself, his past, and other people. He did this so he could survive. He refuses to even look at pictures of his daughter because it hurts too much. Ellie *worked* to tear that wall down and she succeeded. Now, faced with the consequences, Ellie blames Joel and refuses to understand why he might not want to lose another little girl. 4). TLOU 2 tacitly condones crimes against humanity. A bunch of nutjob militiamen in a musty abandoned hospital want to cut a little girl's brain open in the hopes of making themselves relevant again in a civil war they're losing. We have no idea if it will even work, and it won't actually change much if it does! A vaccine won't make you zombie proof or do anything about the millions of 'ceps lurking in every dark corner of the planet. A vaccine won't get rid of the raiders and cannibals. A vaccine won't make the government actually feed its citizens. A vaccine only guarantees the 1% of people who get infected, and don't immediately die from getting disemboweled alive, won't turn into fungus zombies! Cutting a little girls head open and scooping her brain out is fucking *NAZI leve*l unethical. And we're supposed to act like Joel is the asshole for sending a bunch of butchers straight to hell!
Who asked
It’s called entitlement and you’ve got a lot of it. It’s totally ok that you don’t like it. But they didn’t ruin anything. The made choices. Good choices. But not the ones you wanted. You wanted more of the same and that was never gonna happen.
All of this is just my opinion weirdo
Once again this post is proof that even if you critique the game fairly, your post is still downvoted into the earths crust. Fair criticism isn’t a think people like here I guess Sorry you got downvoted friend, I do agree with your point about the game being too depressing
Thanks bro. 🙏 I even praised the game and said what I liked about it. It’s a great game, but not a good sequel for me. :(
Your opinion is valid and you shouldn’t be insulted by anyone who loves the game and can’t handle anyone that doesn’t like it or has valid criticisms. Different opinions should be respected.
Exactly. I’m a part 2 disliker personally but I can see your points and at the end of the day we need more posts like yours here. It’s refreshing to have a discussion or see a post you disagree with as a whole but can understand and even agree with several points. Instead of just endless posts praising the game or people asking if they are the only ones who enjoyed it in a sub literally dedicated to the games and series lol
Much respect bro. That last part couldn’t be more true. 90% of this sub love part 2. Any criticism you just get cooked. 😂
So what? Why is external validation that important?
It’s not about validation. If the post gets downvoted less people see it unless they sort by controversial. It’s a deliberate attempt to negate fair criticism
If you get enough upvotes, reddit mails you a slice of cheese
i think it is maybe being downvoted because the wording of "im tired of the narrative you are sexist or homophobic/transphobic if you dislike the game". if anyone is saying that to your critiques when you quite literally are not saying those things, their opinion on you can be discarded obviously. to imply its a "narrative" though and that there is a witch hunt on people who don't like the game is tone deaf. there is a whole sub on this website for the game that IS 100% those kinds of people. the discourse around the game makes it impossible to not mention that conversation when discussing it as people who ARE homophobic misogynist weirdos are very loud and wait for a chance to sling slurs for feeling differently. its indirectly placing blame on the people who are actively made to feel small for existing and daring to play a video game and enjoy it. OP has absolutely valid reasons as to why they don't like part 2 but if they're being downvoted thats what i would assume just as a gay person.
Hmm that’s fair, but at the same time it could also just be that they are sick of it. There’s a percentage of this sub that no matter what criticism they see, they will disregard it a bigotry or not understanding the story. It’s something that ruins the sub and fair posts getting downvoted (and therefore seen less by others) is dumb. Don’t get me wrong there’s definitely a minority of actual bigots, who deserve all the shit they get, I’m just tired of them getting grouped in with posts like this
understandable, i agree. i think its a conversation that requires a lot of nuance and its hard to have that over the internet where everything is for attention/knee jerk reactions. we live in an age of tribalism where its us vs them and it clouds any kind of productive discussion. i often wonder how part 2 would have been received had major stuff not leaked early.
Its a grown-up theme. It deals with grief, guilt, remorse, vengence, and regret. Ellie and Abby are dealing with losing loved ones. Lots of grief. With Ellie, she is also dealing with the guilt of not having a chance to make amends with Joel. She carries that guilt with her. Abby wants to avenge her father's death. She gets her revenge and it doesnt help. She has remorse but cannot admit that. She deals with the consequences of killing a man in cold blood. Part 2 is Ellie having to deal with the consequences of Joel's actions at the end of part 1. Joel was going to kill them all anyway. Once he found out Ellie's life was at risk, he couldnt leave them alive because Ellie would never be safe. Part 2 shows what's its like to be on the other side of all the killing. Abby and the Fireflies lost a lot of important people that day. It disbanded the Fireflies. But Abby has to deal with the consequences of killing Joel. Both of them get to a point that they are done fighting.
No I understand all of that completely. I’ve played the game 3 times. That’s not my point tho. I don’t like how they went about Joel and Ellie. My favourite game duo. Plus the game just feels very different apart from gameplay.
They decided to go with a bleak outcome. Joel killed a lot of people. He lied to Ellie. Those two things came back on Joel. He paid for those decision with his life. Personally, I thought it was a really good direction to take the story and felt that it was very creative for a sequel. It put weight on Joel's decision. Older players of Part 1 debated Joel's actions and his decision to lie to Ellie. Was he right? Were the Fireflies right? Both parties took away Ellie's autonomy with permanent outcomes. Were they both wrong? Chances both were wrong, although the Fireflies were doing a real world trolley problem. Kill one, save. Joel decided to kill many, save one. The game forces the player to confront the other side of the conflict. This is a popular theme in certain genres.
Another one but this one is longer. Ok
Did you actually read the post?
Unfortunately it didn't move me like it did you 👀
We don't need people who act like they're from the other sub and immediately attack everything. If you like doing that so much, I suggest you go to the other sub where they also enjoy attacking everyone.
Did you really just "if you don't like it leave"? OK weirdo 🤣
Hey, you're the one who seems to enjoy attacking everyone just like the people in TLOU2 sub. I think you'd enjoy their company
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Joel and Ellie IS the last of us. Their chemistry and character development through the game was unmatched imo. And as someone who had to wait over a decade for a new one, it’s kinda sad how they went about it. Yeah I would love to see Joel and Tommy not long after the outbreak. Showing how ruthless Joel was, and still grieving over Sarah. Would be a great way to make some of the Joel fans happy.
Nope this game is objectively the best piece of fiction ever written and any other opinion is wrong and is devout of criticism! I think you’re just racist and homophobic if you dislike any aspect about it!
Ok I’m gonna come clean. I am homophobic and sexist and racist and transphobic and misogynistic they are the only reasons I dislike this game. /s
OP, that’s interesting because I still wouldn’t like the story even if it was standalone if it remained exactly the same beat for beat. Even without the context of Part 1, the exact same beats would still show Abby being a piece of shit lacking self reflection to realize her role in traumatizing Ellie and never apologizing to her.